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View Full Version : Pacers need a new coach before tomorrow's (Monday's) tipoff



ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 09:55 PM
From another thread, late Saturday:


If we lose, or at the very least, if we are not competitive tomorrow we should fire Rick immediately.

Somebody has to send the signal that what we've been seeing for the past two weeks can not be tolerated. Period.

Rick should resign, or if not TPTB should remove him before tomorrow's game.

It's 100% obvious that Rick has lost the team. It doesn't matter if its Rick's fault or the player's fault or even who is at fault.

In the NBA, you replace the coach unless you're talking about Riley or maybe Phil Jackson.

What should really happen is Larry Bird should take over for the rest of the season and the playoffs, so he can observe players, chemistry, the lockerroom, etc. on a firsthand basis (not via whatever story Rick is telling him) in order to figure out what he needs to do this summer.

This must stop; and it must be stopped this season. Even when the 2002-03 team was falling apart under Isiah, the off-court tradgedies, and Artest's flagrant foul binge, the team always put forth effort.

I blame everyone, but the trading deadline has long since passed us by and there's no point in cutting the players.


Okay - fire away.

Kegboy
04-09-2006, 09:56 PM
Bang bang.

:bond:

Roaming Gnome
04-09-2006, 10:00 PM
:thumbsup: It's easier to fire a coach that is not getting through,then it is to fire a team that is tired of the message!

Kegboy
04-09-2006, 10:00 PM
I do like the idea of Bird evaluating things first hand. I'm just scared the players might start trying, and he'd think, "Hey, this aint so bad. It sure is fun being back on the bench." :suicide:

However, no matter how big an SOB I think Larry is, I don't for a minute think he'd fire his friend with a week to go in the season.

SoupIsGood
04-09-2006, 10:02 PM
Bad idea

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:03 PM
Bad idea

Thanks for that insight.

Give me a better one?

Doug in CO
04-09-2006, 10:03 PM
Good idea - let Bird coiach out the last few games before we miss the playoffs.

pizza guy
04-09-2006, 10:04 PM
Bang bang.

:bond:

:stupid:

Kaufman
04-09-2006, 10:04 PM
Firing Rick would be the ultimate low this late in the season ---

Larry won't do it to his friend because he too knows that Rick has to go out and get another job in the future and it wouldn't look nice on his resume.

Kegboy
04-09-2006, 10:04 PM
:kickcan:

Arcadian
04-09-2006, 10:06 PM
Making Larry coach this team would be a fitting punishment for putting it together.

Kaufman
04-09-2006, 10:08 PM
This team's composition isn't the working of Larry Bird.

SoupIsGood
04-09-2006, 10:09 PM
Thanks for that insight.

Give me a better one?



Let the man finish his contract. Give him a fair shot at things next year.


Bring in a sane, durable team.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:10 PM
No, we can only blame Bird for the ex-Kings on the roster.

:banghead:

Hell, I see bulletproof lurking in here... I kid; I kid...

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:11 PM
Bring in a sane, durable team.

How may guys (in particular, guys in the rotation) are you going to trade?

That's unrealistic in the NBA.

I can say I want fifteen new players (and mean it) but I know it ain't gonna happen.

Besides, I'm okay with keeping five guys from this team's frontcourt (Danny, JO, David as starters, Peja and Jeff on the bench) - that's too much continuity to keep Rick around. For JO's sake. (And David's development which has been much too slow for my liking.)

Doug in CO
04-09-2006, 10:13 PM
Let the man finish his contract. Give him a fair shot at things next year.


Bring in a sane, durable team.

You can't have a lame duck coach - holy crap - you don't think they listen to him now, imagine if he was a lame duck.

No fracking way.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:15 PM
Firing Rick would be the ultimate low this late in the season ---

Larry won't do it to his friend because he too knows that Rick has to go out and get another job in the future and it wouldn't look nice on his resume.

Kevin fired Flip. Flip landed on his feet.

If Larry can't do it because of "friendship", the DW needs to fire both Larry and Rick tomorrow.

I'm telling you, this franchise is at a very serious crossroad right now and I'm not sure there is time to wait (unless you want to see JO publicly demand a trade shortly after the regular season ends. I don't.)

SoupIsGood
04-09-2006, 10:16 PM
How may guys (in particular, guys in the rotation) are you going to trade?

That's unrealistic in the NBA.

I can say I want fifteen new players (and mean it) but I know it ain't gonna happen.

Having a sane, durable team is unrealistic? If that's the case, I should just quit watching for a few years until we get one. I'm tired of it.

Honestly, what is a coaching change going to do. This team will still be brittle and mentally weak. What coach is going to succeed with that.... well Rick did for awhile.

I just want a NORMAL team... please! :pray:

For the how many guys thing, I already said I want 12 gone.... is that kind of turnover really unrealistic? It seems the Celts did something similar recently.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:19 PM
You can turn over that many, but you're going to be in the lottery for years.

If you turn over that many at once, there's (1) no guarantee chemistry will be any better; and (2) it may take a couple of seasons to figure out that chemistry.

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 10:19 PM
Jay, do you really believe this or are you just trying to start a discussion.

If this were late February or early March, I would agree with you. But with 6 games left, no. It would give the franchise a bad name. Believe me Bird can evaluate the team well enough as it is

Plus you learn more about the players the way things are. Who is willing to still play hard in the middle of this. TPTB will respect those who play hard now. bringing in a new coach now. No

bulletproof
04-09-2006, 10:20 PM
Ain't gonna happen. Larry wouldn't humiliate Rick like that.

D-BONE
04-09-2006, 10:20 PM
Fire RC and promote JO to player-coach. That should confirm that the team listens to neither one.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:22 PM
Okay, bp, but Rick should quit.

Rick's already humiliating himself sufficiently. And it may not be his fault, but he's lost this team.

I know there's a human aspect to this but this is the freaking NBA. When its time to change coaches you just have to roll up your sleeves and do it. (For example, they should've fired Isiah twenty minutes into his first training camp. But I digress.)

Kaufman
04-09-2006, 10:24 PM
Kevin fired Flip. Flip landed on his feet.

If Larry can't do it because of "friendship", the DW needs to fire both Larry and Rick tomorrow.

I'm telling you, this franchise is at a very serious crossroad right now and I'm not sure there is time to wait (unless you want to see JO publicly demand a trade shortly after the regular season ends. I don't.)

Kevin didn't fire Flip this late in the season. Its not the right thing to do man - its just not. You don't take firing someone lightly.

This season, my friend, is up in flames. Stop trying to salvage it. JO, he can demand whatever he wants to - the team doesn't revolve around him. It was here before he was born, and it'll be here after he's retired.

I don't think this is a serious crossroad right now. The crossroad will be the offseason. Right now you throw out the players you want to see and you evaluate them and see if they are worthy of being here next year. Playoffs or not, we need a reconstruction. The goal is a championship, not making the playoffs. And I got news for you - this isn't the year for a banner - I'm not sure I'd want one if were to get so lucky, because I hate the attitude and personality of the team sooo much right now.

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 10:25 PM
Jay it is only 6 games, 10 days. Just calm down. We can wait it out. it won't change anything anyway. And yes it would humiliate Rick. There are only 6 games left

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:26 PM
Jay, do you really believe this or are you just trying to start a discussion.

I'm not much of a discussion starter.

I really believe Ron Artest was even worse for this team than everything that has been said. I believe this team is built for the regular season. And I really believe this team needs a new coach immediately or it could go through an offseason that leads us to a long stretch in the lottery.

And as I typed that, I was apparently channelling Chevy Chase:



Clark: Where do you think you're going? Nobody's leaving. Nobody's walking out on this fun, old-fashioned family Christmas. No, no. We're all in this together. This is a full-blown, four-alarm holiday emergency here. We're gonna press on, and we're gonna have the hap, hap, happiest Christmas since Bing Crosby tap-danced with Danny ****ing Kaye. And when Santa squeezes his fat white *** down that chimney tonight, he's gonna find the jolliest bunch of ******** this side of the nuthouse!

SoupIsGood
04-09-2006, 10:27 PM
You can turn over that many, but you're going to be in the lottery for years.

If you turn over that many at once, there's (1) no guarantee chemistry will be any better; and (2) it may take a couple of seasons to figure out that chemistry.

They'll have to go eventually, why not now? This team will always be average, as it is put together right now. Too unreliable.

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 10:27 PM
I really believe Ron Artest was even worse for this team than everything that has been said.



Well since I consider the topic of this thread a little crazy.

I'll respond this way to the part I quoted above. It that sentiment starting to lose a little credibility

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:28 PM
So you guys think its okay for the team to just go through the motions for the last dozen games or so of the season.

I don't.

And we're in a god damned playoff race, against inferior teams. This isn't the ****ing Atlanta Hawks here.

Fire him.

SoupIsGood
04-09-2006, 10:28 PM
I'm not much of a discussion starter.

I really believe Ron Artest was even worse for this team than everything that has been said. I believe this team is built for the regular season. And I really believe this team needs a new coach immediately or it could go through an offseason that leads us to a long stretch in the lottery.

And as I typed that, I was apparently channelling Chevy Chase:



:laugh: Awesome quote

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:29 PM
They'll have to go eventually, why not now? This team will always be average, as it is put together right now. Too unreliable.

I'm expecting some of the less-egregious offenders to start next season with the Pacers, and if its more-of-the-same, they'll get moved by the deadline.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:31 PM
Well since I consider the topic of this thread a little crazy.

I'll respond this way to the part I quoted above. It that sentiment starting to lose a little credibility

No, I don't think we've fully seen just how badly he poisoned this team.

By the time they removed the tumor, almost every other organ was infected.

Aw Heck
04-09-2006, 10:32 PM
So you guys think its okay for the team to just go through the motions for the last dozen games or so of the season.

I don't.

And we're in a god damned playoff race, against inferior teams. This isn't the ****ing Atlanta Hawks here.

Fire him.
None of us like the way the Pacers are playing right now. But firing Rick now doesn't accomplish anything. It just gives the coaching staff one less coach. I highly doubt the staff would change much of anything, considering there's only 6 games left.

I don't see how that motivates the players at all. All it would say to me is that management thinks the season is over and is getting a head start on the offseason moves. There wouldn't be any reason to play any harder.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:33 PM
Kevin didn't fire Flip this late in the season. Its not the right thing to do man - its just not. You don't take firing someone lightly.

Flip didn't lose his team this late in the season. I think the comparison still applies.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:35 PM
To the contrary, Mr. Heck, we're still in a playoff race.

Giving the players a kick in the behind from a new voice might be a good thing.

Or does everyone else think that DW and Bird have also given up on this season.

If so, I expect my playoff ticket refund immediately. And their heads on a platter.

Aw Heck
04-09-2006, 10:39 PM
To the contrary, Mr. Heck, we're still in a playoff race.

Giving the players a kick in the behind from a new voice might be a good thing.

Or does everyone else think that DW and Bird have also given up on this season.

If so, I expect my playoff ticket refund immediately. And their heads on a platter.
Who are they going to hire at this point in the season? Who is going to take hold of the reigns with 6 games left in the regular season? Not someone new. It would be either Kevin O'Neill or Chuck Person. Not new voices. Unless you think Larry Bird's coming down to coach. He's said he hates coaching. And the last time he coached he had a smart, hard-working, veteran-laden team. If he didn't like coaching that team, how the heck would he take coaching this team?

If you're expecting a coaching change this soon, you're expecting too much. If anything happens, it will happen this offseason.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:41 PM
Didn't I say in Post #1 that Larry should take over for the rest of the season and the playoffs?

Yep...


What should really happen is Larry Bird should take over for the rest of the season and the playoffs, so he can observe players, chemistry, the lockerroom, etc. on a firsthand basis (not via whatever story Rick is telling him) in order to figure out what he needs to do this summer.

Although... even if it were only Kevin O'Neill, that would still be worth it.

Too bad Rothstein and Mike Brown have moved on.

No wonder Rick hasn't stood up for his players and been ejected all season. Who would take over?

:shudder:

grace
04-09-2006, 10:44 PM
Okay, bp, but Rick should quit.

I sincerely doubt Rick would quit with a week left. I don't know how much of it is his fault, but I'm thinking he and the team can go halfsies on the blame for this disaster.

Personally, I think Larry is too lazy to get off his butt and do anything as strenuous as coach. Besides, unless he has Rick and Dick Harter there to hold his hand (and David Craig to give him his heart pills) I'm not all together sure he'd know what to do.

grace
04-09-2006, 10:57 PM
Although... even if it were only Kevin O'Neill, that would still be worth it.

:boggled: Oh my God. :shakehead

I'm going to go back and check my criteria for putting someone on my ignore list.






:1outtaher

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 11:01 PM
:boggled: Oh my God. :shakehead

I'm going to go back and check my criteria for putting someone on my ignore list.






:1outtaher

Six games only, Grace. I promise.

SoupIsGood
04-09-2006, 11:04 PM
Kevin is a beast, have you seen that guy. I hope I look that good when I'm 70.

Doug in CO
04-09-2006, 11:08 PM
Well since I consider the topic of this thread a little crazy.

I'll respond this way to the part I quoted above. It that sentiment starting to lose a little credibility

Losing ALL credibility.

Suaveness
04-09-2006, 11:13 PM
Jay, as much as I believe that this team is no longer is responding, I don't feel he should fired now. He needs to play it out. Granted, if this means not getting in the playoffs or getting swept, so be it. But with ONLY 6 games left, what does it matter if we have another coach? We aren't going to win a series anyway. Lets just let Rick play it out.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 11:21 PM
This isn't about winning a playoff series; that's unrealistic.

This is about sending the message that what we've been seeing for the past week or two will not be tolerated by the Pacers' organization.

When's the last time the Pacers team really quit this early in the season? The Season We Do NOT Discuss (and I thought Brownie should've been fired at about Game #10 that season when he was opening lobbying for the UCLA position.)

Prior to that, it would've beeen the last of the George Irvine years, and that was before DW was in charge.

This is unacceptable. Even for six more games.

Doug in CO
04-09-2006, 11:25 PM
George Irvine - there was a brilliant basketball mind.

Evan_The_Dude
04-09-2006, 11:28 PM
If Larry or Donnie are reading, I'll coach the team. I'm not good with X's and O's, but I'm a great motivator. I don't have any experience, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn express last night!

But seriously though, just let Rick go and give him the migraine excuse. Who said it was only good for players? Then they can make an official anouncement in the offseason. Now back to my vanilla smirnoff and coke...

PacerMan
04-09-2006, 11:33 PM
Making Larry coach this team would be a fitting punishment for putting it together.


This team was perfectly suited until the headcase moron blew it all up.

DisplacedKnick
04-09-2006, 11:42 PM
Some of you folks need to take a break from basketball or something.

When you do that, good things happen. Want proof? I swore off the Knicks after Philly blew us out - twice - and what happens? We win 3 in a row.

Firing Rick now would be worse than useless.

#31
04-09-2006, 11:53 PM
:crazy2:

Bball
04-09-2006, 11:54 PM
With a front office that must have PATIENCE written on the door I don't know that I could expect a move like firing Rick at all (with 6 games left). It would send a message throughout the fanbase that probably is a good thing (overall... some would wonder what took so long and some would scream... "Don't stop there!). I have a feeling several of us have made decisions to cut back or not buy tickets at all for next year and a lot of that is based on how things have played out and the Pacers slow reaction to those things. A decisive move might jumpstart or cause some of that to be rethought.

I think Rick lost the team long ago... and maybe management has lost the team as well... it's just finally come to a head of late. Rick has been pretty good at walking the fine line of almost losing the team and then somehow (seemingly) getting them back. Not this time. This time it spiraled right on down the toilet.

I'm not sure how some want to blame Bird yet nobody much at all wants to point a finger toward DW.

I'm not sure if anyone would label Rick a quitter if he resigned tonight. I personally think it is exactly what he should do, with management's blessing.

OTOH, I think Rick is probably gone at the end of the season and he and management both know it so management will ride it out... and I imagine Rick will too. ...Regardless of what we might think.

-BBall

brichard
04-09-2006, 11:55 PM
Let's think about this a bit from the perspective of the Pacers brass.

1. We give Rick the job and he takes the same team Isiah had and goes to the ECF.

2. We have a brawl that decimates our team, makes it to the playoffs and even manages to win a first round series.

3. He coaches a team that is marred by Artest yet again, and then loses 2 of his 5 starters for the bulk of the year. And even with all of that going awry, he still has a shot at making the playoffs.

Serioiusly, how many coaches in the leage could pull that off? Not that many if you really think about it.

When I've seen Larry talk to the media, he has mentioned not seeing effort from players and being on their butts. He regards Rick as the best X's O's guy in the business an he has another year left on his contract. The more I've thought about it, I think that the Pacers give Rick another year and make some major moves on the team. The players seem to be getting under Bird's skin more than anybody else. And if we got rid of Rick based on what he accomplished in the last 3 years with those circumstances, I think the rest of the league would think we were nuts.

Man, how this team could use a veteran leadership presence. They need that way more than a coach the more I think about it. I'm still okay with Rick being moved, more for his sake than ours, but without roster moves it would still add up to the same result IMHO.

Arcadian
04-09-2006, 11:59 PM
This team's composition isn't the working of Larry Bird.


This team was perfectly suited until the headcase moron blew it all up.

Granted I don't think much of Larry and I think the roster is horrible but the comment was mostly tongue and cheek.

larry
04-10-2006, 12:06 AM
i could agree w/ the above post. reggie would have us w/ the 4 seed i bet w/ peja. this s..t is sad.
artest>j.o. maybe he should've of been option 1a

Bball
04-10-2006, 12:08 AM
Man, how this team could use a veteran leadership presence. They need that way more than a coach the more I think about it. I'm still okay with Rick being moved, more for his sake than ours, but without roster moves it would still add up to the same result IMHO.

But how well could Rick do as a lame duck coach next season? How could management throw money at him at this point so that he wouldn't be a lame duck?

And, I think Jay already said this, how many players can we change (realistically) to give Carlisle a clean slate to work with and not have any hangover from this season? ...And how effective could that kind of change really be?

-Bball

larry
04-10-2006, 12:10 AM
This team was perfectly suited until the headcase moron blew it all up.
you mean artest was our best player & helped us start great & now we suck, yeah.
ronnie>pacers

Jermaniac
04-10-2006, 12:13 AM
Why do people continue to talk like Artest was forced out of Indiana. The idiot asked for a trade everyone wanted him to stay here and he out of no where took a **** on all of the people who stood up for him and asked for a trade. Get that into your head.

larry
04-10-2006, 12:14 AM
granger's dressing like a pimp. who's the poison? let j.o. demand a trade!

brichard
04-10-2006, 12:15 AM
But how well could Rick do as a lame duck coach next season? How could management throw money at him at this point so that he wouldn't be a lame duck?

And, I think Jay already said this, how many players can we change (realistically) to give Carlisle a clean slate to work with and not have any hangover from this season? ...And how effective could that kind of change really be?

-Bball

I think it depends on who you subtract and who you add. If you trade JO for Garnett... that would be a huge change. It isn't all about who you delete, it is also about who you add. If you find that veteran glue guy who holds it all together and delete the negative people, that is a change of day and night. The positive people may provide the "radiation" needed to treat the cancer.

MagicRat
04-10-2006, 12:19 AM
Rick can stay on for the rest of the season, but I hope he lets the players play themselves out of their funk. With games left against the Knicks, Celtics, TWolves, Bobcats, Raptors and Magic, I think he just needs to roll the ball out and let the players figure it out on their own.

So, to Rick I say sit on your hands for the rest of the season. Whittle down your playcalling to "Go" and "Move". Don't slow up a PG heading up the court after a rebound. Don't call a timeout to setup a play after AJ has already called one. Show some trust in your players. Let them play. Maybe they rediscover the fun of playing basketball in the next several games. Maybe it helps them rediscover their "swagger." Maybe it also re-invigorates the defensive end.

:whoknows:

Bball
04-10-2006, 12:21 AM
Rick can stay on for the rest of the season, but I hope he lets the players play themselves out of their funk. With games left against the Knicks, Celtics, TWolves, Bobcats, Raptors and Magic, I think he just needs to roll the ball out and let the players figure it out on their own.

So, to Rick I say sit on your hands for the rest of the season. Whittle down your playcalling to "Go" and "Move". Don't slow up a PG heading up the court after a rebound. Don't call a timeout to setup a play after AJ has already called one. Show some trust in your players. Let them play. Maybe they rediscover the fun of playing basketball in the next several games. Maybe it helps them rediscover their "swagger." Maybe it also re-invigorates the defensive end.

:whoknows:

You could accomplish that by firing Rick and doing exactly as Jay suggests...
You just made think even harder on Jay's idea.

-Bball

larry
04-10-2006, 12:26 AM
Didn't I say in Post #1 that Larry should take over for the rest of the season and the playoffs?

Yep...



Although... even if it were only Kevin O'Neill, that would still be worth it.

Too bad Rothstein and Mike Brown have moved on.

No wonder Rick hasn't stood up for his players and been ejected all season. Who would take over?

:shudder:
thanks man, i'm glad i've got ur vote!

MagicRat
04-10-2006, 12:37 AM
You could accomplish that by firing Rick and doing exactly as Jay suggests...
You just made think even harder on Jay's idea.

-Bball

I think they've had enough drama already this season so I'm just giving them a new Rick Carlisle rather than a whole new coach...........

Peck
04-10-2006, 02:12 AM
I'm expecting some of the less-egregious offenders to start next season with the Pacers, and if its more-of-the-same, they'll get moved by the deadline.


Since when have the Pacers moved players by the deadline, other than in Artest case where he demanded a trade & the Jalen trade where the season was in the tank.

There was bringing Jackson back but that was for players we weren't playing anyway.

You have to go way way way back to the late 80's to find any other significant trade deals in season.

Walsh & even Bird have made it very clear that the time to move players was during the summer. So if we don't move them over this summer, likely they won't move till the next one.

D-BONE
04-10-2006, 06:23 AM
With a front office that must have PATIENCE written on the door I don't know that I could expect a move like firing Rick at all (with 6 games left). It would send a message throughout the fanbase that probably is a good thing (overall... some would wonder what took so long and some would scream... "Don't stop there!). I have a feeling several of us have made decisions to cut back or not buy tickets at all for next year and a lot of that is based on how things have played out and the Pacers slow reaction to those things. A decisive move might jumpstart or cause some of that to be rethought.

-BBall

It would be the start of a sending a message. However it would not, IMO, be a complete or resounding message without then addressing the players who I think are at least 50% to blame. I think some who suggest a new coach will do wonders for some of the guys who've been ranted and raved about all year long on here are letting them off the hook or giving them too much credit.

By that logic one could say, well if JT or JO or whoever deserves a chance with a fresh regime, then why not just apply that logic to the whole team. Problem is that A) I think there's a tendency to overrate our individual talent and B) there's no proof that they work well together.

I for one am tired of this group, individually and collectively I don't think the mental toughness will ever be there. As a ticket holder, I'm looking for significant change. If that starts with RC now, so be it. And if it's not realistic to expect a majority new roster by next season, it isn't unrealistic to hope 3-4 key long-term underachievers are no longer here. Bon voyage!

pacerwaala
04-10-2006, 07:11 AM
You can't have a lame duck coach - holy crap - you don't think they listen to him now, imagine if he was a lame duck.

No fracking way.

For exactly the above reason, Pacers brass should give Rick an extension and get a few players outta here (mainly S Jackson, maybe Tinsley and AJ, maybe JO if we can get KG). Tinsley and JO have lot of trade value and SJax and AJ could be throw ins.

Before JO came back from his injury, we were on a winning streak and the team was playing together with ball movement, etc. So Rick is a good coach then and now since we are losing, he is suddenly a bad coach. Can't we give Rick the benefit of doubt since there is going to be an adjustment period to fit JO in with Peja or the other way.

IMHO, people on this board are jumping the gun with regards to Rick. How soon they forget! Exercise some patience and we will be ok.

Unclebuck
04-10-2006, 07:43 AM
This is about sending the message that what we've been seeing for the past week or two will not be tolerated by the Pacers' organization.

This is unacceptable. Even for six more games.


Well then suspend some of the players, don't fire the coach right now. After sleeping on this idea, it seems even more stupid now then last night. Firing the coach right now would send the wrong message to the players. Something like, well I guess it isn't my fault since TPTB fired the man in charge

#31
04-10-2006, 08:01 AM
Besides, I'm okay with keeping five guys from this team's frontcourt (Danny, JO, David as starters, Peja and Jeff on the bench) - that's too much continuity to keep Rick around. For JO's sake. (And David's development which has been much too slow for my liking.)

:lmao: Agree with everything u said except this, to start a rookie over an All-Star and best shooter in the league? What would the strategy be then... play only Defense the entire match?

BillS
04-10-2006, 08:52 AM
Firing the coach sends a message all right.

It says that the players can continue to stand around looking like idiots on the floor on defense, because they aren't accountable.

It says they can continue to miss layups and take dumb shots early in the shot clock, because they aren't accountable.

It says they can relax because they'll be given yet another chance under a coach who lets them play "their way" - whoever needs to show up their particular man will take the ball and jack it up whether they are hitting shots are not - because they aren't accountable.

Bad passes, an inability to hold onto the ball, standing flatfooted on defense while opponents swing toward the basket, missing easy shots and deciding to take hard ones instead ... yeah, that's a coaching problem, fire the coach now and amazingly this team will win the ECF if not the finals. Wow, should have seen that all along.

heywoode
04-10-2006, 09:03 AM
1. We give Rick the job and he takes the same team Isiah had and goes to the ECF.

2. We have a brawl that decimates our team, makes it to the playoffs and even manages to win a first round series.

3. He coaches a team that is marred by Artest yet again, and then loses 2 of his 5 starters for the bulk of the year. And even with all of that going awry, he still has a shot at making the playoffs.

Serioiusly, how many coaches in the leage could pull that off? Not that many if you really think about it.

When I've seen Larry talk to the media, he has mentioned not seeing effort from players and being on their butts. He regards Rick as the best X's O's guy in the business an he has another year left on his contract. The more I've thought about it, I think that the Pacers give Rick another year and make some major moves on the team. The players seem to be getting under Bird's skin more than anybody else. And if we got rid of Rick based on what he accomplished in the last 3 years with those circumstances, I think the rest of the league would think we were nuts.

Man, how this team could use a veteran leadership presence. They need that way more than a coach the more I think about it. I'm still okay with Rick being moved, more for his sake than ours, but without roster moves it would still add up to the same result IMHO.

I agree with this post.

Keep Carlisle, get rid of players. I would go all out to get KG, even if it meant JO, Tins, and someone else. Whatever. Just get rid of the "talker" and the chronically injured, underachieving PG.

If we get 3-5 new players in the offseason, I would give Carlisle training camp, preseason, and the first quarter of the season to show what he can do when the sky isn't falling (I guess I should say IF the sky isn't falling). He has done alot with the teams he has had since he got here. I fear anyone else would have us in the lottery already given the events of the last three seasons.

jcouts
04-10-2006, 09:16 AM
I do like the idea of Bird evaluating things first hand. I'm just scared the players might start trying

Perhaps that's the very reason Larry Bird took a team to the NBA finals...

naptownmenace
04-10-2006, 09:22 AM
Having a sane, durable team is unrealistic? If that's the case, I should just quit watching for a few years until we get one. I'm tired of it.

Good idea. I haven't watched the Pacers play in almost two weeks. I'm not going to watch this team crap away the season... it hurts too much.


Honestly, what is a coaching change going to do. This team will still be brittle and mentally weak. What coach is going to succeed with that.... well Rick did for awhile.

I just want a NORMAL team... please! :pray:

For the how many guys thing, I already said I want 12 gone.... is that kind of turnover really unrealistic? It seems the Celts did something similar recently.

Thank you. The one thing we know is that Rick is a good coach. There's only one All-Star on the team and there's questions surrounding him too. I say hack this team to bits leaving JO, Granger, Foster, Harrison, Peja, and maybe Saras. Then fill in the rest of the roster with solid NBA vets that are specialists, ie, Steve Kerr/Brian Shaw, or Dale Davis/Reggie Evans types.

ChicagoJ
04-10-2006, 10:13 AM
Thank you. The one thing we know is that Rick is a good coach. There's only one All-Star on the team and there's questions surrounding him too. I say hack this team to bits leaving JO, Granger, Foster, Harrison, Peja, and maybe Saras. Then fill in the rest of the roster with solid NBA vets that are specialists, ie, Steve Kerr/Brian Shaw, or Dale Davis/Reggie Evans types.


I'm fine with keeping just those players, but not with Rick coaching JO. As long as JO is around, he's going to coach iso-ball.

And not with both Peja and Granger on the roster.

ChicagoJ
04-10-2006, 10:22 AM
Well then suspend some of the players, don't fire the coach right now.

We've got to dress eight players, by rule.

We'd have to suspend damn near every player.


After sleeping on this idea, it seems even more stupid now then last night. Firing the coach right now would send the wrong message to the players. Something like, well I guess it isn't my fault since TPTB fired the man in charge

After sleeping on this idea for two nights (I originally proposed it on Saturday, before the game), I'm even more certain that it would sent the right message to the fans.

Further, your concern is easily addressed. The announcement should contain this:

Larry Bird, "I'm taking over this team on an interim basis, not because I want to coach again but because we've got to send the message that the Indiana Pacers are not going to 'mail it in' while they are still involved with a playoff race. In addition to changing coaches, we're also going to take a long, serious look at which players want to be here and which players we want to be here. They should view this as a six game (or longer) audition. Our fans, except UncleBuck, apparently, won't tolerate this type of performance and neither will we."

Hicks
04-10-2006, 10:28 AM
Firing Rick now would send the message that Bird and Walsh are blaming him for everything (or most things) wrong with the team. That would be the wrong message, and while he has his fair share of the blame, I'd say the majority of this is the players' fault.

Kravitz was on WTHR last night, and he thought it was 95% the players, 5% Carlisle's micro-managing, etc. I won't go that lopsided, but I'd say it's about 66% to 33%.

Doug in CO
04-10-2006, 10:30 AM
Firing Rick now would send the message that Bird and Walsh are blaming him for everything (or most things) wrong with the team. That would be the wrong message, and while he has his fair share of the blame, I'd say the majority of this is the players' fault.

Kravitz was on WTHR last night, and he thought it was 95% the players, 5% Carlisle's micro-managing, etc. I won't go that lopsided, but I'd say it's about 66% to 33%.

And I would blame the remaining 1% on Boomer - he really has not given 100% this year.

ChicagoJ
04-10-2006, 10:41 AM
Firing Rick now would send the message that Bird and Walsh are blaming him for everything (or most things) wrong with the team. That would be the wrong message, and while he has his fair share of the blame, I'd say the majority of this is the players' fault.

Kravitz was on WTHR last night, and he thought it was 95% the players, 5% Carlisle's micro-managing, etc. I won't go that lopsided, but I'd say it's about 66% to 33%.

Doesn't matter to me who is to blame.

I'd get rid of all the players right now but there are rules against that.

There's no rule that they can't fire the coach.

Just a bunch of you guys who think that sending the message "This will not be tolerated" is sending the wrong message.

Here's the only possible reason why Rick should not be replaced in the next ten hours before tonight's game: if TPTB have not decided 100% that they are going to replace him.

Otherwise, they should just do it now.

If the Knicks blow us out at home tonight, should be be fired then? What more does anyone need to see?

This team is not as bad as they've been playing.

ChicagoJ
04-10-2006, 10:44 AM
And I would blame the remaining 1% on Boomer - he really has not given 100% this year.

Actually, I'd blame Bowser. He came into the season fat and out of shape, and never seemed to make any positive contributions.

And where's he been during this crisis? Probably riding around on that damn toilet of his, flushing the rest of the Pacers' season down the crapper.

Unclebuck
04-10-2006, 10:44 AM
If the Knicks blow us out at home tonight, should be be fired then? What more does anyone need to see?




If the Pacers lose by 45 points tonight, and 55 points on Wednesday night he still should not be fired until after the season is over

Diamond Dave
04-10-2006, 10:49 AM
And I would blame the remaining 1% on Boomer - he really has not given 100% this year.

Yeah, he is routinely shown up by the Power Pack during the 4th Quarter Dunk Fest.

His game is really on the decline. Maybe his ending contract can be packaged with Jackson to Philadelphia for a Cheese Steak.

grace
04-10-2006, 11:53 AM
Perhaps that's the very reason Larry Bird took a team to the NBA finals...

Compairing that team to this team is like compairing Maria Sharapova to Marge Simpson.

grace
04-10-2006, 12:00 PM
We've got to dress eight players, by rule.

We'd have to suspend damn near every player.

Yes, you have to dress 8, but there's no rule that they have to play. Heck, put a jersey on Chuck. He's already on the bench.




Larry Bird, "I'm taking over this team on an interim basis, not because I want to coach again but because we've got to send the message that the Indiana Pacers are not going to 'mail it in' while they are still involved with a playoff race. In addition to changing coaches, we're also going to take a long, serious look at which players want to be here and which players we want to be here. They should view this as a six game (or longer) audition. Our fans, except UncleBuck, apparently, won't tolerate this type of performance and neither will we."

The last week of the season is WAY TOO LATE for something like this.

Kegboy
04-10-2006, 01:49 PM
Firing the coach sends a message all right.

It says that the players can continue to stand around looking like idiots on the floor on defense, because they aren't accountable.

It says they can continue to miss layups and take dumb shots early in the shot clock, because they aren't accountable.

It says they can relax because they'll be given yet another chance under a coach who lets them play "their way" - whoever needs to show up their particular man will take the ball and jack it up whether they are hitting shots are not - because they aren't accountable.

Bad passes, an inability to hold onto the ball, standing flatfooted on defense while opponents swing toward the basket, missing easy shots and deciding to take hard ones instead ... yeah, that's a coaching problem, fire the coach now and amazingly this team will win the ECF if not the finals. Wow, should have seen that all along.

:nod:

What he said.

Bball
04-10-2006, 02:22 PM
I think when Jay is talking about sending a message he doesn't mean just for this week or the next 10 days. He means long term. A message to the players... the media... the fans... players on other teams... college players... kids dreaming of the NBA... etc...

The message wouldn't stop with the coach, it would just be the first shot across the bow to show the world the Pacer organization will not tolerate this level of performance. Not just W/L record but the sad performance we are seeing.

IOW, if players took away they'd just escaped the blame they would be sadly mistaken as soon as the next volley was fired. ...And the fanbase et al would soon be seeing an even stronger message about what is not tolerated in Pacerland.

Now, whether you think that is over-reacting or not is a different story, but to think the only message being sent is to the players and that is that the coach is wrong is being short-sighted.

Still, firing the coach with 6 games left does seem drastic... But then... look at the performance on the floor. Maybe it is time for drastic measures. Maybe it's been time for a while? Maybe we've finally ran out of excuses like "They need time to gel... Just wait until player X gets some more minutes... Just wait until so and so comes back from his injury... He's been injured so they need more time to gel...."

One goal post after another had to be moved this season and we've gotten nowhere in the end.

-BBall

ChicagoJ
04-10-2006, 02:26 PM
Bball, good summary.

That is what I'm trying to say. The Pacers need to send a "this won't continue" message to their players, fans, the rest of the league, everyone.

Los Angeles
04-10-2006, 02:40 PM
The most pathetic and telling part of this thread is this: Everyone has the "NBA teams must dress 8 players" rule memorized.

I've followed the game off and on for 20 years or more and I don't remember ever concerning myself with it until after the brawl.

We've come dangerously close to breaking that rule two straight seasons. Unbelievable.

ChicagoJ
04-10-2006, 02:49 PM
The only other time we've even discussed it was for the two games after the Dale Davis - Micheal Smith fight... was that also during the season we do not discuss?

Nevermind, Dwayne Schintzius started in Orlando the next night. It was before then.

DisplacedKnick
04-10-2006, 02:58 PM
Well, this relates to my post in Bball's thread but if you were going to fire anyone for what's happened the last two years the Simons should step in and get rid of LB and probably Walsh.

The coach is usually the sacrificial goat but that doesn't make it right.

Jose Slaughter
04-10-2006, 03:09 PM
I would let all the players dress & then only play 7.

As a matter of fact I would go out & sign a couple guys from the DL or CBA & let them play ahead of about half our roster.

Putnam
04-10-2006, 03:25 PM
And I would blame the remaining 1% on Boomer - he really has not given 100% this year.


Oh! Blame Reb Porter, maybe. But not Boomer!

grace
04-10-2006, 03:45 PM
And while we're spreading blame EVERYWHERE I want to heap some more blame on the training staff. I blame them for the shape Bowser is in. It's inexcusable. Maybe he's got some medical condition they're not telling us about. I'm sure :montieth: and :wells: know something and aren't telling.

Kegboy
04-10-2006, 04:04 PM
And while we're spreading blame EVERYWHERE I want to heap some more blame on the training staff. I blame them for the shape Bowser is in. It's inexcusable. Maybe he's got some medical condition they're not telling us about. I'm sure :montieth: and :wells: know something and aren't telling.

Don't worry, in a few years :kravitz: will run out of stuff to ***** about and write a damning story all about it.

indygeezer
04-10-2006, 04:08 PM
Wanna tell the players this wont be tolerated? Give the coach (whoever it is) a 10 year contract and a piece of the team. Show the players just exactly who is in charge of how play will be conducted and quit letting the inmates run the asylum.

I don't like Rick's micromanaging either, but he has been successful when the players were listening to him. Show them that they are going to have to deal with him for a long time and they will have to either straighten up, ask to be traded, or see their butts shipped out, to wherever. At this point I'm glad I gave it up for Lent. Too bad Easter is before the end of the season.

ChicagoJ
04-10-2006, 05:03 PM
Wouldn't that work something like this:

TPTB, "We just gave Rick a 10-year contract. You're gonna play for him, and you're gonna like it. Or ask for a trade now."

Fifteen hands go up. Tinsley is acting like Juan Esptein in the front row. Even Kevin O'Neill has raised his hand.

TPTB: "Uh, okay, we'll get working on it."

* The TPTB runs off and gives us a series of trades that range from good to questionable to firesales. Then contracts expire and TPTB announce that they are going to open the checkbooks for FAs that want to play here.

No player returns our calls except for Ron Mercer - he's just looking to cash in on the FA market like he did in Chicago.

:puke:

indygeezer
04-10-2006, 10:39 PM
Wouldn't that work something like this:

TPTB, "We just gave Rick a 10-year contract. You're gonna play for him, and you're gonna like it. Or ask for a trade now."

Fifteen hands go up. Tinsley is acting like Juan Esptein in the front row. Even Kevin O'Neill has raised his hand.

TPTB: "Uh, okay, we'll get working on it."

* The TPTB runs off and gives us a series of trades that range from good to questionable to firesales. Then contracts expire and TPTB announce that they are going to open the checkbooks for FAs that want to play here.

No player returns our calls except for Ron Mercer - he's just looking to cash in on the FA market like he did in Chicago.

:puke:


Possibly.

Then again it could be any coach (I did say whoever it might be)....give them the same security as the players get and then perhaps the players will realize that they don't necessarily run the show anymore.

Bball
04-11-2006, 12:34 AM
Possibly.

Then again it could be any coach (I did say whoever it might be)....give them the same security as the players get and then perhaps the players will realize that they don't necessarily run the show anymore.

I'd be fine with doing away with guaranteed contracts for players. Something much closer to the NFL model. Possibly they could be made guaranteed for only the first year, or possibly two, to make sure a player doesn't get cut midseason of the first year of his FA contract (and not have money to feed his children). Or maybe a buyout clause tied to a percentage of the overall contract could be mandated. Anything to give some control back to the coaches and management.

-Bball

ChicagoJ
04-11-2006, 10:22 AM
Doesn't matter to me who is to blame.

I'd get rid of all the players right now but there are rules against that.

There's no rule that they can't fire the coach.

Just a bunch of you guys who think that sending the message "This will not be tolerated" is sending the wrong message.

Here's the only possible reason why Rick should not be replaced in the next ten hours before tonight's game: if TPTB have not decided 100% that they are going to replace him.

Otherwise, they should just do it now.
-snip-

Interesting. Seems like Larry Bird held a press conference, and Kravitz wrote an article, solely in response to this post.

Of course, I don't think Bird gave the right answer. That's a different story.

Fool
04-11-2006, 11:13 AM
Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

ChicagoJ
04-11-2006, 03:13 PM
Lighten up; it was a joke.