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Evan_The_Dude
04-09-2006, 03:21 PM
I just thought it was time for this one because after this Pistons blowout, I know he's gonna get ripped a new one.

My thoughts are he's showing no fire out there at all, he's not standing up for his team, he's very reactive instead of being a proactive coach, and he doesn't use his players strengths.

I haven't been on the fire Carlisle bandwagon, and I won't be but I do think the Pacers need to come back with a new look next season - Coach and Player wise. This team has officially been run into the ground. There is no more, there is no hope. I hope to God they don't make the playoffs.

Jermaniac
04-09-2006, 03:23 PM
He plays Austin Croshere over Danny Granger who has earned the right to be playing 20 mpg every night. That is all I need to know about our coach Ricky Carlisle. FIRE CARLISLE.

Moses
04-09-2006, 03:23 PM
I agree.

Time for a new coach. After looking at the statistic in close games and watching these rotations, I'm convinced we need a new coach if we want to keep this group of players. We have the talent to suceed..but this coaching scheme just isn't working.

Ragnar
04-09-2006, 03:24 PM
ehh I am more confident now than I ever have that the end is near for the Rick Carlisle show. Earlier this season I wanted him gone but I thought Bird would never fire his guy. Now with pretty much all of the players having tuned him out I think Larry has to.

Shade
04-09-2006, 03:28 PM
:wave:

#31
04-09-2006, 03:29 PM
<---------------

SoupIsGood
04-09-2006, 03:30 PM
I like Rick.

D-BONE
04-09-2006, 03:31 PM
CAN HIM ASAP! But don't stop there. The players need to feel the wrath for this pitiful excuse for a season, too!! CLEAN HOUSE!

Jermaniac
04-09-2006, 03:32 PM
I like Rick.Why? Because he is nice on his weekly radio show?

Because he treats your favorite player like ****?

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 03:32 PM
It is not Rick's fault and showing more fire would backfire, you have to be who you are.

I also don't think the players like J.O's leadership

Southside_Pacer
04-09-2006, 03:32 PM
Larry has always said three years for a coach........I guess he knows what he's talking about.

SoupIsGood
04-09-2006, 03:33 PM
Why? Because he is nice on his weekly radio show?

Because he treats your favorite player like ****?


Because he's a good coach.

Although you are right about Harrison. If he ever goes back to DNP'ing him, I'll be right there on the Fire Rick bandwagon. :devil:

Evan_The_Dude
04-09-2006, 03:37 PM
It is not Rick's fault and showing more fire would backfire, you have to be who you are.

It's playoff time. Now's not the time to be soft on the players. It's time to light a fire under their a$$.

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 03:39 PM
It's playoff time. Now's not the time to be soft on the players. It's time to light a fire under their a$$.



IT IS TOO LATE

Evan_The_Dude
04-09-2006, 03:41 PM
IT IS TOO LATE


he's very reactive instead of being a proactive coach

My point exactly.

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 03:43 PM
My point exactly.



My point is there is nothing Rick could do at this point, if he woke up tomorrow and started acting like Bob knight of 25 years ago, it would make no difference

Evan_The_Dude
04-09-2006, 03:56 PM
That's like saying the Pacers could play their *** off every game from now on and it still wouldn't make a difference. At this point, everybody in this organization that isn't a Simon is auditioning for a job for next season. If Rick wants his job, he'd better do whatever he can do to make this team give a damn again.

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 03:58 PM
That's like saying the Pacers could play their *** off every game from now on and it still wouldn't make a difference. At this point, everybody in this organization that isn't a Simon is auditioning for a job for next season. If Rick wants his job, he'd better do whatever he can do to make this team give a damn again.



There is nothing Rick can do to get the players to play hard. Haven't you seen this before in the NBA. The players have quit on their coach.

You are entirtely missing the point

Evan_The_Dude
04-09-2006, 04:01 PM
I understand your POV. But tell me this, why after all the success Rick had in Detroit, do you think he was really let go?

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 04:09 PM
I understand your POV. But tell me this, why after all the success Rick had in Detroit, do you think he was really let go?


I don't know.


But I listened to Hubie very closely today. They were discussing the pacers and the coaching, and Hubie said things were fine up until about 8 games ago, and things have fallen off. The body language, they just aren't responding. I don't think anything happended 8 games ago, it just has caught up with them

Thirtysomethin
04-09-2006, 04:09 PM
Rick said something in Q&A that has me disturbed. He said he hopes the team can stay together and play another season while healthy.

you are right. Something major has to happen. I personally think that RC will be fired and JO will be traded.

Evan_The_Dude
04-09-2006, 04:16 PM
I don't think JO should be traded, I just don't think he should be the leader. No matter what, you don't just trade 20-10 just because rhe guy isn't the leader you thought he was. 20-10 guys don't grow on trees.

Outlaw
04-09-2006, 04:25 PM
It is not Rick's fault and showing more fire would backfire, you have to be who you are.

I also don't think the players like J.O's leadership

I agree Rick cannot pretend to be someone his personality says he is not.
You cannot lay every loss on the Coach. Rick DID NOT assemble this team. He just has to try to make it work and you can't put a square peg in a round hole.IOW this team just does not fit together and it is not because of the Coach.


JO needs to be on his way out of town IMO.He says the right things but does not back them up with his play.He says he wants Detroit in the 1st rd ....well I think we know what a disaster that would be.

PaceBalls
04-09-2006, 04:32 PM
I don't think JO should be traded, I just don't think he should be the leader. No matter what, you don't just trade 20-10 just because rhe guy isn't the leader you thought he was. 20-10 guys don't grow on trees.

20-10 implying JO is a good rebounder... he isn't, he really is a horrible rebounder and most of his rebounds are gimmes... Alot of guys can score 20 points a game. Now don't get me wrong JO is a decent big man. But his contract way over his "value" for his play. We could be alot better getting 2 or 3 solid players that know how to box out.

Remember earlier in the season when we had Foster and Scot playing C and PF... 2 guys who hustle for the boards, know how to box out and are smart players on the defensive end, it was much more effective. Having JO on the floor is almost a rebounding liability.

It just seems strange to me that the pacers always seem to play their best games without JO... or maybe Rick coaches better without JO

PaceBalls
04-09-2006, 04:34 PM
I don't know.


But I listened to Hubie very closely today. They were discussing the pacers and the coaching, and Hubie said things were fine up until about 8 games ago, and things have fallen off. The body language, they just aren't responding. I don't think anything happended 8 games ago, it just has caught up with them

Wasn't it about 8 games ago Tinsley and JO were reinserted in the starting line up, or maybe it was just the offense was supposed to adjust back to them? I think that is the crux of the bisquit right there

Ant
04-09-2006, 04:38 PM
Time for him and his and the index card to hit the road.

Roaming Gnome
04-09-2006, 04:45 PM
It sounds like some of you are ready to give up a 20 & 10 front court player for nothing. I've seen J.O. do nothing but try to adjust and do what has been asked of him. Yeah, granted I hate seeing some of the stuff J.O. does like soo many jumpshots, but wanting to trade him because this team is flawed is just silly, IMHO.

It is just time for a new voice and a new back court. I just don't understand the thing of asking J.O. to play out of position, then to blame him for stuff that is beyond his control.

Please make me understand what is so bad about J.O., I know a lot of you are whining about his contract, but he is a 20 & 10 front court player, and the last time I checked...they are not cheap!

Jermaniac
04-09-2006, 04:54 PM
Great point about his contract.

Look at what Zach Randolph and Kenyon Martin are making and they are not even close to as good as JO is.

Big guys dont come cheap.

Hicks
04-09-2006, 04:57 PM
Agreed, RG. Something I've noticed about basketball fans for a LONG time is that most of them want to boot players if they can't do everything (or nearly so) right. Fans want all-star teams, and they're not going to get it. It's just a matter of finding guys who are good enough at a variety of things (for the team; not a team of "interchangable parts" :rolleyes: ) that when you put them together with a good gameplan and they bring the energy you need, you win.

Indyfan
04-09-2006, 05:04 PM
I understand your POV. But tell me this, why after all the success Rick had in Detroit, do you think he was really let go?

IMHO, it's because Larry Brown was available. The Pistons wanted him bad, even bad enought to offer him the job while the seat was still occupied. It was clear Larry was hired before Detroit's season had ended. The time line surrounding that deal indicated that the deal had been made well before the Pistons were ousted from the playoffs. Remember, Detroit was down 3-1 to McGrady and Orlando, a series that Detroit was favored to win. I don't think that Dumars expected Carlisle to rally the troops and end up winning the series in 7. It I believe that Detroit trashed Rick's rep to cover their own back sides...and unfortunately, even though Rick took the high road, the accusastions and inuendos they put out there stuck, true or not...and IMHO, I believe that they're not accurate. If they were true, do you think Indy would have picked him up or other teams would have been courting him like they were?

Couple of related thoughts...1st, although the lynch mob is beginning to build, and the writing seems to be on the wall, don't lose sight of the fact of the cards that Carlisle's been dealt. He's had to deal with the effects, both direct and indirect of Artest's antics, which ruined both of the last two years. Rick did his best coaching of his career last year amidst all the injuries and suspensions, as evidenced by his strong showing for COTY. Look at the injuries, etc from this year. He's been dealt a crappy hand again this year. How many starting line ups have we had (something like 29)? Contrast that to Detroit, which until 'Sheeds suspension had started the same team for the first 74 games! It's not like Carlisle woke up one day this year and became a bad coach.

2nd, this is a players league, and not a coaches league. The players make many multiples of what the coaches make. By and large, they're spoiled prima donnas that get their way. Many, especially the franchise guys, are locked into contracts and aren't as easily disposed of or changed as the coach is. Artest is a case and point. You can also include Tinsley, etc. Like it or not, you can't use the same tactics that you would say in HS or college (like chewing some butt or sitting someone down). As such, the inmates are running the prison. It's a bad structure and will disenfranchise good coaches like Carlisle. That is until such time as the players are made to do what the coaches ask. That doesn't go for everyone, but it does apply to many. Even if he wanted to, Carlisle can't sit Tinsley or whoever down. He'd have a mutiny on his hands. And, because this league is business oriented, disciplining isn't easy or even a possible long term solution. The fans don't want to pay big money for going to a game to see someone being nailed to the pine. They want these guys in the game. So the pressure's on the coach to play his best guys. It also potentially hurts future trade possibilities. Do you think anyone would be interested in a head case like Tinsley, who's been plagued with phantom injuries if he can't even get PT on the Pacers? Hell no. Unlike college, the coach doesn't recruit players, and in reality, with the exception of the Pat Riley's and Phil Jackson's, most coaches don't have the final say. On most teams, the coach has little to do with personnel. He has to deal with what he's been given to coach by the GM or Pres.

3rdly, and something that people seem to overlook, how do you think the players responded to Larry's open criticism of their play and his quotes in the media about making offseason changes? Look at the quality of play since his making that statement. The effort just isn't there. The players have hung it up. Is anyone going to call out Larry or Donnie for having assembled this team? Highly unlikely. People make mistakes. But in this league, few GM's and Pres' step forward and admit that so and so wasn't a good trade or fit or that we should have moved so and so before now. Unfortunately, many of them are untouchable, and can hide behind the fall guy...the coach. Time will tell what stance Larry and Donnie take. My only hope is that if they do decide to part ways with Carlisle that they use the same high road that Carlisle has used throughout his career and throughout this year. Never once has he made an excuse or attempted to deflect the blame. But, in this league, it's all about winning, regardless of the situation.

In summary...Has the team quit playing? You bet they have. Is it Carlisle's fault? I don't think so. At least not entirely. Think about it. What can he do about it? Not much. He can't sit guys, and he can't change the composition of the team. So, under this structure, he has little say. But, the coach is the visible head, so he will be the fall guy, every time. Like him or not, Carlisle will take the hit for this team. The system does not look kindly on the coaches. For Carlisle, it's just a matter of time.

My biggest fear is that we won't know or appreciate what we've lost until it's too late.

sweabs
04-09-2006, 05:13 PM
Great post, Indyfan.

Jose Slaughter
04-09-2006, 05:27 PM
My guess Carlise already knows he will not be back.

That might be a part of what our teams current problem is.

As far as who Bird has lined up.....

Some at the party mentioned Mark Jackson.

Hard to say what way Bird will go with this but it will be the most important selection for this franshise in the next 5 years.

I've always like Paul Westphal.

http://pepperdinesports.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/031506aaa.html

Pepperdine Announces Departure of Head Men's Basketball Coach Paul Westphal

Search for new Head Coach to Begin as Soon as Possible


March 15, 2006

Malibu, Calif. - Pepperdine University announced Wednesday morning the departure of head men's basketball coach Paul Westphal.

Pepperdine Athletic Director Dr. John Watson said that the university was grateful for the leadership that Westphal brought to the team during the past five seasons. "Coach Westphal is among the most outstanding people I've known or had the pleasure to work with," Watson said. "We extend him our best wishes for the future."

Dr. Watson said that a search would begin as soon as possible for the school's new head basketball coach.

I think Paul Silas would also be a great addition to the coaching staff.

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 05:34 PM
Indyfan, you make an excellent point, but I for one know and really appreciate what we have in Rick Carlisle, as I said at the forum party, Rick is the second best NBA coach this franchise has ever had

Evan_The_Dude
04-09-2006, 06:11 PM
IndyFan that was a great post. A lot of what you said is very true, especially your last sentence. I would hate to see us let Carlisle go, only to see him go elsewhere and win a championship right away. That's why I refuse to go on the official fire Carlisle bandwagon.

I know he's a good coach, but I also believe he has a lot of his own game to work on. I question the way he uses some of his players, and when he uses them. Hell, I even remember Slick saying on the radio during the Knicks game when the Pacers obviously needed to make a sub in the 4th quarter "Don't wait to long Rick". There's another person that works in or around the organization that made it known that Carlisle shouldn't be here next season [I won't state a name]. I'd think this person knows and sees a whole lot more than we ever will.

Anyway, I'm not against Carlisle being back here, but he needs work on his coaching weaknesses, and we need to get some players that will buy into his system.

Itmight seem like I'm blaming just Carlisle, but I blame the players just as much if not more. Both sides have a job to do, and neither side is doing their job successfully.

Indyfan
04-09-2006, 07:01 PM
Itmight seem like I'm blaming just Carlisle, but I blame the players just as much if not more. Both sides have a job to do, and neither side is doing their job successfully.[/QUOTE]

eezy, you're absolutely right and I couldn't agree more. The problem is, the "accountability" of the players is significantly different than the coaches. Players can have a bad year, but they can't get fired for poor performance. They're under contract to get paid, regardless of how well they play. Having said that, clearly they can mess with their future by playing poorly by way of jeopardizing future contract offers (and please don't misunderstand me, I'm not suggesting that these guys are playing poorly on purpose) but, unlike the coaches, they don't have any "dis-incentives". If you or I screw up at work, even if we're under an employment contract, we are at risk for losing our jobs (and I'm assuming that termination would be "for cause"). In the business world (or real world) that's a pretty strong motivator. I'd love to see the league, and all pro leagues for that matter, move to a system of disincentives for players. We're all aware of the many incentives and bonuses that they have available--so why doesn't it cut both ways?!. That would go a long way in creating some accountability at the player level. But, we all know, that will never happen.