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View Full Version : Q.O.D. for Saturday...



Peck
04-08-2006, 03:04 PM
I am not a big poll fan because I would rather hear some of your rationals. So I just will ask & you can answer yes or no if you want but I would like to read some of your thoughts on this.

Has the team tuned out Rick Carlisle?

Unclebuck
04-08-2006, 03:08 PM
Yes they have. It has become rather obvious. The effort, enthusiasm, energy just isn't there. They also seem to be having some trouble running the plays. Although last night they did run a few great plays coming out of timeouts.

It is really sad, and I blame the players, if you can't play for Rick, then maybe you don't belong in the NBA

Los Angeles
04-08-2006, 03:10 PM
What does "tuned out" mean, anyway? Is it the same as "ignore"? If so, then I say no.

I think the team is not playing good basketball. But that doesn't mean they are ignoring the coach.

Will Galen
04-08-2006, 03:11 PM
No, not as a team. I believe Tinsel might have, but the team as a whole is still paying attention.

The proof is they run the plays he calls. AJ even runs the plays he calls to the detriment of the team.

Peck
04-08-2006, 03:13 PM
What does "tuned out" mean, anyway? Is it the same as "ignore"? If so, then I say no.

I think the team is not playing good basketball. But that doesn't mean they are ignoring the coach.

Fair enough, but then I have a further question for you if you don't mind.

What causes basketball players who have played for most of their life to all of a sudden stop playing good basketball?

Are you saying it's effort, execution or mentality?

Will Galen
04-08-2006, 03:14 PM
They also seem to be having some trouble running the plays. Although last night they did run a few great plays coming out of timeouts.

If they are having trouble running the plays, the fact that they are running them at all proves they are still listening.

Peck
04-08-2006, 03:14 PM
Yes they have. It has become rather obvious. The effort, enthusiasm, energy just isn't there. They also seem to be having some trouble running the plays. Although last night they did run a few great plays coming out of timeouts.

It is really sad, and I blame the players, if you can't play for Rick, then maybe you don't belong in the NBA


Does this mean you now are officially ready to make the change at the coaching position?

BTW, I agree with you about mostly blaming the players however don't let Walsh & Bird off of the hook for this either.

Bball
04-08-2006, 03:15 PM
If tuned out means 'ignoring' then I doubt it... not entirely...
If by 'tuned out' we mean not trying hard and have lost confidence in what the coach is saying then my answer is "yes, they've tuned him out"

-Bball

Arcadian
04-08-2006, 03:16 PM
Yes. I when the team was a little of .500 I didn't think they were underachieving. Now I do.

UB I like Rick but to say it is all the players fault is ignoring recent history. Players didn't want Rick to take over for Larry in 2000. Players weren't sad that Rick left Detriot and I hear they have a pretty good team.

Of course there are circumstances and Rick's been dealt a bad hand. I guess I blame the Artest and pg situations and trading Al for Jackson...Bottom line, I blame managment.

Will Galen
04-08-2006, 03:20 PM
Fair enough, but then I have a further question for you if you don't mind.

What causes basketball players who have played for most of their life to all of a sudden stop playing good basketball?

Are you saying it's effort, execution or mentality?

Mentality. Effort and execution spring from mentality. The fact is the game under Carlisle is work for them, not fun. Thus, the team as a whole is hardly even on the same page at the same time.

Peck
04-08-2006, 03:24 PM
Mentality. Effort and execution spring from mentality. The fact is the game under Carlisle is work for them, not fun. Thus, the team as a whole is hardly even on the same page at the same time.


I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand.

Is the game less fun than it was two seasons ago or even last season? What changed that made it less fun? I don't think Rick has changed his style much & if anything this season he has opened up the offense on occasion to let them have more control on the floor.

In your opinion, what changed?

sweabs
04-08-2006, 03:24 PM
I'm not sure if they've tuned Rick out as much as the problem seems to be this dark cloud of uncertainty hanging over everyone's head (including Coach Carlisle).

These guys came into this year with high expectations. Analysts across the country were picking the Pacers to win it all this year, but when you look at what's happened since it's truly disheartening. Now we're a sub-500 team, losing to teams like the Knicks and all one can do is shake their head.

These guys know that they're not playing well, and they also realize that major changes are coming in the offseason because of lackluster performances and an abysmal season in general. Perhaps it is having that "Ron Artest effect" on the players.

When it was announced that Ron would be traded, you could tell that the players were in a state of apprehension - more or less confused and concerned for their future. Now that they know changes are inevitable during the offseason, that has to leave guys wondering about their status. Are they in the long-term plans for this franchise, or will they be shipped out for the best offer available?

With that in mind, it does not seem unfathomable to believe that these guys are already looking onto things beyond this season. They've given up on the season...it's a lost cause. I'm holding Rick up to these standards as well...there's no reason to believe he isn't concerned about his job security. I think everyone realizes that "One Goal" lived a truly ephemeral lifespan this year. At this point, the only "goal" they're preoccupying themselves with is maintaining a job with the Pacers.

SoupIsGood
04-08-2006, 03:34 PM
Yes they have. It has become rather obvious. The effort, enthusiasm, energy just isn't there. They also seem to be having some trouble running the plays. Although last night they did run a few great plays coming out of timeouts.

It is really sad, and I blame the players, if you can't play for Rick, then maybe you don't belong in the NBA

Agreed.

Although it isn't the entire team.... just most of it

Unclebuck
04-08-2006, 03:34 PM
I just think Rick would be an easy coach to play for. He treats players with respect, he never badmouths a player in the media, he never screams at them or embarasses them in public.

Los Angeles
04-08-2006, 03:34 PM
Fair enough, but then I have a further question for you if you don't mind.

What causes basketball players who have played for most of their life to all of a sudden stop playing good basketball?

Are you saying it's effort, execution or mentality?
Good question.

I think the majority of the problem is execution, with a dash of mentality.

We had a winning combination with Johnson, Jackson, Peja, Foster, Pollard. Those guys figured out how to play together using a brand new, made-just-for-them offensive system. What was even better was the fact that the second unit was man-for-man virtually interchangable (with the exception of Jones who gets a pass for being a slashing machine). None of our players at that time had ego issues. None of them cried about playing time or position. Why? because they were all at thier "natural" position. None of them were "stars". (Peja's star was tempered by being in a new environment).

Add Tinsley and JO (and a few injuries) and what do you get? A bunch of guys forced to play out of position and that can't figure out how to play together.

Ultimately, they haven't tuned the coach out. The team is a TEAM and has to learn to play as a team through experience and training. All the other teams in the league have been playing together for months now. The current Pacers are just now starting over with training camp. Yet again. :suicide:

I could go on and on about team play vs. talent and how our situation relates to the lakcluster play of US national teams compared to international teams that have played together for years, but i want to stay on topic.

In my opinion, team trust, training and consistency equals execution. Execution wins ball games.

SoupIsGood
04-08-2006, 03:37 PM
I just think Rick would be an easy coach to play for. He treats players with respect, he never badmouths a player in the media, he never screams at them or embarasses them in public.


.....let's them go one-on-one all they want..... :-p

Will Galen
04-08-2006, 03:38 PM
I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand.

Is the game less fun than it was two seasons ago or even last season? What changed that made it less fun? I don't think Rick has changed his style much & if anything this season he has opened up the offense on occasion to let them have more control on the floor.

In your opinion, what changed?

Of course it's less fun. Losing isn't fun

Nothing has really changed as far as Carlisle goes. The disruption caused by the brawl, and the disruption caused by injuries to key players over the last two years is still effecting the team. Too much turmoil. They can still get it together when they really want to, for instance the Sacramento game.

They will get it together in the playoffs too, but won't have the trust in each other as needed to make some noise. Edit; See LA's post above.

Unclebuck
04-08-2006, 03:38 PM
Does this mean you now are officially ready to make the change at the coaching position?

BTW, I agree with you about mostly blaming the players however don't let Walsh & Bird off of the hook for this either.



I suppose, but I want significant player changes first and foremost.


As I said at the forum party the obvious mistake made was building the entire team around J.O and Artest. But I can't get mad at either DW or LB for it, because I agreed with the approach they were taking.

The Pacers could have won a championship with Ron and J.O., but I think it is obvious the team would be better with Al, Brad, Jeff, Granger and a revamped backcourt.

Edit: For clarification, when I say they would be better with Al, brad, jeff, granger, I'm saying they were be better than they are right now. They still wouldn't be championship level

Hicks
04-08-2006, 03:56 PM
The Pacers could have won a championship with Ron and J.O., but I think it is obvious the team would be better with Al, Brad, Jeff, Granger and a revamped backcourt.

Good God, if only.

Kegboy
04-08-2006, 03:56 PM
Of course they have.

Will Galen
04-08-2006, 04:10 PM
Tune out 2. Slang. a. To disassociate oneself from one's environment: b. To become unresponsive to; ignore:

Unclebuck
04-08-2006, 04:14 PM
Tune out 2. Slang. a. To disassociate oneself from one's environment: b. To become unresponsive to; ignore:



Are we talking about Pacers fans or the players.

rexnom
04-08-2006, 04:15 PM
I think it's a question of leadership among the players. I think Reggie (and to some extent Dale, last year) had Rick's back last year. Nobody would go against Reggie. Nobody would go against Rick. I think this team lack a real leader. I don't think the problem is the Jack or Tinsley or whoever don't respect Rick, I think it's that they don't respect Rick [I]and/I] they don't respect our supposed leader (JO).

Ragnar
04-08-2006, 04:21 PM
The Majority of the team has tuned him out. AJ of course has not because Rick is his only hope in the NBA for significant minutes. Hence the failing to pass to Jack on the last possession in two games alone this last week.

Now some of you seem to think its only JT that has tuned him if so then JT must be the best player on the planet because this team sure sucks without him. Now I dont believe that any more than any of you do I just thought it would be fun for the its all JT's fault people to ponder.

Clearly this is the wrong coach for this team. They know it the fans know it. Only UB and a few others dont seem to know it. Every time Rick pretends to want to increase the flow of the offense the players get all excited only to have Rick revert back to the stolid slow do nothing offense. Anyone would get sick of that after 3 years.

Kstat
04-08-2006, 04:30 PM
Here's my rationale:

If the Pacers are playing this poorly WITHOUT tuning out there coach, god forbid how bad will they be when they eventually DO tune him out?

No matter how you slice it, Rick is in trouble, along with the rest of his team.

Los Angeles
04-08-2006, 04:47 PM
I think it's a question of leadership among the players. I think Reggie (and to some extent Dale, last year) had Rick's back last year. Nobody would go against Reggie. Nobody would go against Rick. I think this team lack a real leader. I don't think the problem is the Jack or Tinsley or whoever don't respect Rick, I think it's that they don't respect Rick [I]and/I] they don't respect our supposed leader (JO).
I was watching Best Damn Sports Show last night and Sir Charles was on. They were talking about TO and how he disrespected the Quarterback. Then he went into a story:

In a Celtics lockeroom long ago, someone (charles wouldn't say who) was disrespecting the coach and Larry Bird SLAPPED THE GUY to get him in line.

rexnom
04-08-2006, 05:05 PM
I was watching Best Damn Sports Show last night and Sir Charles was on. They were talking about TO and how he disrespected the Quarterback. Then he went into a story:

In a Celtics lockeroom long ago, someone (charles wouldn't say who) was disrespecting the coach and Larry Bird SLAPPED THE GUY to get him in line.
...and that's why they call him Larry Legend....Bird isn't gonna stand for this crap much longer.

Hicks
04-08-2006, 05:33 PM
That would be awesome if Larry was slapping Jack around behind closed doors. ;) :D

Arcadian
04-08-2006, 05:41 PM
Are we suggesting that Jax needs a trip to someone's basement?

D-BONE
04-08-2006, 11:22 PM
We had a winning combination with Johnson, Jackson, Peja, Foster, Pollard. Those guys figured out how to play together using a brand new, made-just-for-them offensive system. What was even better was the fact that the second unit was man-for-man virtually interchangable (with the exception of Jones who gets a pass for being a slashing machine). None of our players at that time had ego issues. None of them cried about playing time or position. Why? because they were all at thier "natural" position. None of them were "stars". (Peja's star was tempered by being in a new environment).

Add Tinsley and JO (and a few injuries) and what do you get? A bunch of guys forced to play out of position and that can't figure out how to play together.



I was thinking about this recently as well. After the Artest trade once we got Peja in here we did go on a nice little 10 day - two week run, including the win over Detroit and near miss against San Antonio.

Even better, as LA points out, there was such energy and a really together, team vibe. That group didn't have any training camp to get themselves on the same page.

Was that just an initial wave of positivity and relief from having the spectre of the Artest situation finally removed? Or did it have more to do with JO and JT's return to the mix? That's what really seemed to coincide with the fall-off in energy and positivity. Or was it just inevitable that we would eventually level out?

At any rate, I think some of the players have tuned out Rick, enough to cause severe instability in the team. I also imagine some players have tuned out other players at this point. It just appears that they are really struggling to find any continuity. Not just on the floor performance, just getting along and functioning as a unit. Very disheartening and disappointing.

ChicagoJ
04-08-2006, 11:32 PM
I just think Rick would be an easy coach to play for. He treats players with respect, he never badmouths a player in the media, he never screams at them or embarasses them in public.

...calls all the plays; insists on playing at a snail's pace so that he's in control, not the players.

Runs a system that he's comfortable with, even though it minimizes the collective and individual effectiveness of the players.

He's a control-freak in the making.

I realize that you like those types of coaches. I wish they'd all go back to the college game where they belong. This is a player's league. LET 'EM PLAY!!! DAMNIT! :mad:

Anthem
04-08-2006, 11:35 PM
I was watching Best Damn Sports Show last night and Sir Charles was on. They were talking about TO and how he disrespected the Quarterback. Then he went into a story:

In a Celtics lockeroom long ago, Carlisle was disrespecting the coach and Larry Bird SLAPPED THE GUY to get him in line.
Larry slapped Rick Carlisle?

ChicagoJ
04-08-2006, 11:36 PM
Fair enough, but then I have a further question for you if you don't mind.

What causes basketball players who have played for most of their life to all of a sudden stop playing good basketball?

Are you saying it's effort, execution or mentality?

Effort.

Because they've given up on Rick. Don't know if that's the same as "tuned out."

But these guys are smart enough to figure out there is a low probability they'll be playing for him again after this month. He'll be gone; they might be gone. Unless players and coaches are bizarrely reunited in Boston or something (assuming Doc is fired, of course.)

They're just going through the motions, collecting a paycheck, waiting on summer break so this bad relationship can end however it ends.

rexnom
04-09-2006, 06:21 AM
I was thinking about this recently as well. After the Artest trade once we got Peja in here we did go on a nice little 10 day - two week run, including the win over Detroit and near miss against San Antonio.

Even better, as LA points out, there was such energy and a really together, team vibe. That group didn't have any training camp to get themselves on the same page.

Was that just an initial wave of positivity and relief from having the spectre of the Artest situation finally removed? Or did it have more to do with JO and JT's return to the mix? That's what really seemed to coincide with the fall-off in energy and positivity. Or was it just inevitable that we would eventually level out?

At any rate, I think some of the players have tuned out Rick, enough to cause severe instability in the team. I also imagine some players have tuned out other players at this point. It just appears that they are really struggling to find any continuity. Not just on the floor performance, just getting along and functioning as a unit. Very disheartening and disappointing.

I don't know...we were starting to crumble before JO and JT came back. And let's not lump them together because JO fights through his injuries and he has fit on as well as expected with this supposedly new style and is only getting better and better.

Thirtysomethin
04-09-2006, 12:16 PM
I don't know...we were starting to crumble before JO and JT came back. And let's not lump them together because JO fights through his injuries and he has fit on as well as expected with this supposedly new style and is only getting better and better.

The players on this team do not know their role. That was the same problem we had with isiah. They knew their role with jo and tinsley out. The rotation was set and they knew what they were supposed to do and that they were going to be able to do it(playing time).

Now they do not know their role and there is a feeling in their mind that they were a better team without J.O. At least they knew what thier role was supposed to be or what Rick wanted their role to be.

Btw, did Pollard start the other night over Foster? Just wondering. I think it's a bad idea to not start Foster when J.O. is starting. God knows J.O. doesn't rebound anymore so someone has to pick up the slack. Just my .02

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 03:56 PM
...calls all the plays; insists on playing at a snail's pace so that he's in control, not the players.

Runs a system that he's comfortable with, even though it minimizes the collective and individual effectiveness of the players.

He's a control-freak in the making.

I realize that you like those types of coaches. I wish they'd all go back to the college game where they belong. This is a player's league. LET 'EM PLAY!!! DAMNIT! :mad:


Ok, let me see.

What do Popovich, Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Jery Sloan all have in common. Oh yeh, they do all those things you seem to hate and they are some of the best coaches in the NBA.

Jermaniac
04-09-2006, 03:59 PM
Rick hasnt lost the team.

Jermaine has lost the team. Thats the new fad. Jermaine has more power then the coach, the players listen to Jermaine more then the coach. So Jermaine has lost the team.

Unclebuck
04-09-2006, 04:05 PM
Rick hasnt lost the team.

Jermaine has lost the team. Thats the new fad. Jermaine has more power then the coach, the players listen to Jermaine more then the coach. So Jermaine has lost the team.



You know I think you might be right.

Jermaniac
04-09-2006, 04:07 PM
Of course I'm. Its Jermaine's fault we didnt resign Brad, Ron asked for a trade. Al was traded for Jack. Its very clear that Jermaine O'Neal hates winning and wants to fail.

rexnom
04-09-2006, 04:07 PM
Ok, let me see.

What do Popovich, Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Jery Sloan all have in common. Oh yeh, they do all those things you seem to hate and they are some of the best coaches in the NBA.

Larry Brown is a good coach but extremely inflexible and he also gets on his players' nerves. I'd say the three year rule applies there. Van Gundy's been struggling of late...and it's not just all the injuries in Houston. Jerry Sloan and Pop don't coddle their players as much as Rick does. And Phil somehow seems to always earn the respect of his players and let's face it, he gets the job done. And in the end, can you really compare Phil to Rick? All this said, I don't think he is a poor coach. In fact, I think he is great, but like LB, after a while I think the players stop playing for him.

Bball
04-09-2006, 05:09 PM
Rick hasnt lost the team.

Jermaine has lost the team. Thats the new fad. Jermaine has more power then the coach, the players listen to Jermaine more then the coach. So Jermaine has lost the team.

I just posted a topic that was really long and you succinctly covered 3/4 of it in a couple of lines. Good work!

-Bball