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Julius Sour
04-07-2006, 09:17 AM
Hello,

for most of us basketball season is not over yet. As always, I wish for all the club teams I support to go as far as it is possible for them (even further :)).

But...

There is lots and lots of opinions to sumarize (the final test will be held in Japan) about the game we all LOVE at the International level.


WorldChamps '06
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c160/JeyKuku/wclogo.jpg (http://www.fiba2006.com/index_e.html)


GROUPS

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c160/JeyKuku/groupez.jpg

My Q No.1.

The fact is that in Europe during last couple of years we have seen REALY FAST and FURIOUS evoliution of zone D's.
In 1 of my dizzin' posts before I've asked a Question: What the TEAM USA could offer in offence if it will be facing somewhere around from 20 to 30 varieties of zone D.

All of my friends overseas have stated, that zone D in NBA has enourmous restrictions. For the rest of the World when defending - all the measures count.

We've seen TEAM USA struggle 2 years ago. As I've stated above - zone D's will be used a lot, esspesialy against TEAM USA. How long it will take or how hard it would be to addapt to this sort of defencive basketball for TEAM USA? I'd like to know Your opinions on this issue.

Thank You.

Js

#31
04-07-2006, 09:19 AM
Go Yugoslavia!! (Serbia&Montenegro, Slovenia) :D... Isnt Croatia gona play? Bummer

J_2_Da_IzzO
04-07-2006, 09:27 AM
I think Turkey are gonna be a big suprise this year.

Rytas_Jega
04-07-2006, 09:36 AM
Go Yugoslavia!! (Serbia&Montenegro, Slovenia) :D... Isnt Croatia gona play? Bummer

nope :( They lost game for the straight qualification against Slovenia and 4 Wildcards went to Serbia & Cerno Gorica, Italy, Turkey and Puerto Rico. FIBA doesn't love Croatia :( I'd like to see the best non-qualified teams from the last EC - Croatia and Russia instead of Puerto Rico and Turkey.

Rytas_Jega
04-07-2006, 09:47 AM
I think Turkey are gonna be a big suprise this year.

It's about 2006, not 2010.

Btw, Qatar have promised the Hell to every opponent in their group, I'm not sure what they mean. I'm scared a bit. Fortunately not us but Greeks will be the first to know it.

McClintic Sphere
04-07-2006, 09:59 AM
Looks like the US is in an easy bracket, although we have already been beaten by Puerto Rico. Not sure what China will bring besides Yao. Looks like brackets A & C by far the toughest. Anyone know what style Slovenia plays? I know about Nesterovic, but little else. We better bring a whole lot of Michael Redd and maybe even some JJ Redick against these zoners.

Hicks
04-07-2006, 10:18 AM
20 to 30 varieities of zone? Could you explain please? Even if you were stretching to make a point I'd like to know.

How do zone schemes break down beyond 1-3-1, box-1, 2-3, 3-2, and a shifting version of them?

Rytas_Jega
04-07-2006, 10:19 AM
Looks like the US is in an easy bracket, although we have already been beaten by Puerto Rico. Not sure what China will bring besides Yao. Looks like brackets A & C by far the toughest. Anyone know what style Slovenia plays? I know about Nesterovic, but little else. We better bring a whole lot of Michael Redd and maybe even some JJ Redick against these zoners.

Be ready for tons of threepointers :)

They also have Brezec, Nesterovic and Pacers 2nd round draft pick Lorbek at their frontline.

They were one of two teams (the other was Lithuanian "reserves" team) that won all 3 games (all by 9+ points) at the group stage (beat Greece, France and Bosnia & Herzegovina) in the last European Championship. Unfortunately, lost in the quaterfinals.

McClintic Sphere
04-07-2006, 10:26 AM
Be ready for tons of threepointers :)

They also have Prezec, Nesterovic and Pacers 2nd round draft pick Lorbek at their frontline.

They were one of two teams (the other was Lithuanian "reserves" team) that won all 3 games (all by 9+ points) at the group stage (beat Greece, France and Bosnia & Herzegovina) in the last European Championship. Unfortunately, lost in the quaterfinals.

Thanks for the info. I forgot Lorbek was from there. It will be fun to watch him play, as I would expect him to be coming to Pacer's training camp next year. Those teams Slovenia beat typically aren't too shabby. We may as well start scouting a coach from Europe as well, because Bird seems to love the style of play.

It is too bad Tim Duncan has given up on FIBA, but his experiences have been extremely frustrating.

Rytas_Jega
04-07-2006, 10:56 AM
Thanks for the info. I forgot Lorbek was from there. It will be fun to watch him play, as I would expect him to be coming to Pacer's training camp next year. Those teams Slovenia beat typically aren't too shabby. We may as well start scouting a coach from Europe as well, because Bird seems to love the style of play.

It is too bad Tim Duncan has given up on FIBA, but his experiences have been extremely frustrating.

IMO, you just need at least 2-3 good threepointshooters. Frontline won't be your problem whoever you send.

Those three I mentioned before plus Jaka Lakovic http://www.euroleague.net/plantillas/jugador.jsp?id=ATA, Sani Becirovic http://www.euroleague.net/plantillas/jugador.jsp?id=AGG, Bostjan Nachbar http://www.nba.com/playerfile/bostjan_nachbar/ and Uros Slokar http://www.euroleague.net/plantillas/jugador.jsp?id=BWY form the core of Slovenian National Team.

And you'll meet Italian threepointer shooting machines. This time they'll be more various on offense with Andrea Bargnani http://www.euroleague.net/plantillas/jugador.jsp?id=BWZ

J_2_Da_IzzO
04-07-2006, 11:41 AM
It's about 2006, not 2010.

Btw, Qatar have promised the Hell to every opponent in their group, I'm not sure what they mean. I'm scared a bit. Fortunately not us but Greeks will be the first to know it.

I have a feeling Turkey will beat Lithuania and probably come through that group comfortably.

sweabs
04-07-2006, 11:51 AM
Uros Slokar...

How's he doing anyway? Raptors fans are eager to see him next year (hopefully). Apparently he plays behind one of the best big men in the league (Bargnani?) - but does a good job. What is his game like? Can we expect him to be with the Raptors next year?

Rytas_Jega
04-07-2006, 12:02 PM
I have a feeling Turkey will beat Lithuania and probably come through that group comfortably.

Anything can happen in group of death. Turkey has the most unpredictable National Basketball Team, they can beat anyone in the World and they can lose to anyone (serious National Teams, not Qatar). Beating not prime (probably it will be more or less reserves squad again) roster Lithuania wouldn't be a big surprise. Turkoglu and Okur play outstandingly in NBA, Peker, Turkcan, Kutluay, Erdogan have solid Euroleague careers but it's also known Turkey has big microclimte issues. If they fix it, they will have a chance.

I personally don't like Turkish NT because it's a big stars collection that rearly plays as a team.

McClintic Sphere
04-07-2006, 12:16 PM
it's also known Turkey has big microclimte issues. If they fix it, they will have a chance.


Not familiar with big microclimte issues here stateside. If that means team chemistry problems, then I think we can relate. Care to elaborate on that one?

rexnom
04-07-2006, 12:38 PM
We've seen TEAM USA struggle 2 years ago. As I've stated above - zone D's will be used a lot, esspesialy against TEAM USA. How long it will take or how hard it would be to addapt to this sort of defencive basketball for TEAM USA? I'd like to know Your opinions on this issue.


I grew up playing hoops in the U.S. and I've studied abroad in Europe. Whenever I've played against zones I have struggled immensely. It was amazing. Nothing prepared me for it. I threw out plenty of Tinsley-esque performances. This isn't to say that my game is NBA-quality but just that I grew up with that same non-shooting mentality that many NBA players have. We better bring along Redick, Redd, Johnson, Lewis, and other guys who can shoot because that is the only way to beat these zones. Well, there is also the whole superior passing thing as lanes can easily open up inside a zone. But outside of Chris Paul we don't really have true PGs. I am scared like crazy because when the other team throws out a good zone, it doesn't matter how talented the U.S. team is. However, I don't think the U.S. will be caught unprepared this time. Especially with Coach K, who prepares like none other. Also, being in college as long as he has, I don't think there are many coaches who are as familar with zones as he is. Along those same lines, why isn't D'Antoni coaching this team?

Julius Sour
04-07-2006, 12:55 PM
20 to 30 varieities of zone? Could you explain please? Even if you were stretching to make a point I'd like to know.

How do zone schemes break down beyond 1-3-1, box-1, 2-3, 3-2, and a shifting version of them?

Messina, Recalcati, Kazlauskas (Olympiacos Head coach, Lithuanian, head Coach of China), Obradovic, Sireikia, Spahija just few coaches to mention who each posseses 3-5 UNIQUE (MADE BY THE COACH) thone defences.

js

Rytas_Jega
04-07-2006, 12:56 PM
How's he doing anyway? Raptors fans are eager to see him next year (hopefully). Apparently he plays behind one of the best big men in the league (Bargnani?) - but does a good job. What is his game like? Can we expect him to be with the Raptors next year?

IMO, he isn't ready for NBA yet. However, I never thouht Okur could be a star in NBA.

Slokar is the fourth big man at Benetton (after Goree, Bargnani, Popovic).

He has European threepointer range. His biggest strength is his movement without a ball. Rarely plays one on one on the low post - the only thing missing on his offensive arsenal, plays face to the basket. Good rebounder, sometimes can play good defence (e.g. limited Darjus Lavrinovic to 9 points and only 4 shot attempts in one of regular season games).

One of Slovenian NT leaders, gets much freedom on offence and uses it really well there. At treviso coach David Blatt doesn't trust him much. There he usually is just 4-5th scoring option on the floor and dunks or makes open shots just after teammates' passes or offensive rebounds.

I think he needs 1-2 more seasons at Treviso, where his role and playing time will surely increase, to get ready for NBA. I hope he'll have a solid NBA career.

Rytas_Jega
04-07-2006, 01:03 PM
Not familiar with big microclimte issues here stateside. If that means team chemistry problems, then I think we can relate. Care to elaborate on that one?

They had a few scrimmages at their team during the last EC.

Beowulfas
04-07-2006, 01:38 PM
I have a feeling Turkey will beat Lithuania and probably come through that group comfortably.

I have a feeling You are crazy :) :crazy:

bulldog
04-07-2006, 02:09 PM
They had a few scrimmages at their team during the last EC.

Since scrimmages means "practice games," I would hope so. ;)

I assume you mean they have chemistry problems, and they had a few "skirmishes" (fights)...

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm European myself and it took me forever to learn English, I'm just interested in their NT and am trying to figure out what you meant.

Rytas_Jega
04-07-2006, 02:26 PM
Since scrimmages means "practice games," I would hope so. ;)

I assume you mean they have chemistry problems, and they had a few "skirmishes" (fights)...

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm European myself and it took me forever to learn English, I'm just interested in their NT and am trying to figure out what you meant.

Is it called "scrimmage" team's practice games in basketball, too? Sorry, I didn't know it. If so, that's right, it had to be simply "fights".

But why don't you like "microclimate"? :(

I personally don't like "chemistry, the science of matter". So, I don't want to use this word in other meanings, too.

Hicks
04-07-2006, 02:51 PM
Messina, Recalcati, Kazlauskas (Olympiacos Head coach, Lithuanian, head Coach of China), Obradovic, Sireikia, Spahija just few coaches to mention who each posseses 3-5 UNIQUE (MADE BY THE COACH) thone defences.

js

I'm trying to understand what they actually are, in an X's and O's sense.

rexnom
04-07-2006, 03:02 PM
I have a feeling Turkey will beat Lithuania and probably come through that group comfortably.

Yeah...can't say I agree with that...I think Lithuania and Greece clearly have better teams. And Brazil and Australia can surprise.

bulldog
04-07-2006, 03:11 PM
Is it called "scrimmage" team's practice games in basketball, too? Sorry, I didn't know it. If so, that's right, it had to be simply "fights".

But why don't you like "microclimate"? :(

I personally don't like "chemistry, the science of matter". So, I don't want to use this word in other meanings, too.

Honestly, I've never heard of the word microclimates, except perhaps in a really specific metereology setting or something. Had no idea what it meant, but you got the idea across.

But now my interest is piqued by these zone innovations that I keep hearing about...have they begun to use match-up zones over there? Box and 1 type hybrids? I mean, how many possible combinations of players are there, I assume they're not busting out the 1-1-1-1-1 zone.

Julius Sour
04-08-2006, 02:59 AM
This Euroleague season I've seen moments in a game when 4 (not 2 as it is common) players close ball handler in a box in a corner of a court. it happens so fryky fast... No options. Just to throw the balll in one of defenders legs or no look baloon pass somewhere.

Those new zone D's they're some sort of hybrid of personal and traditional zone D. Sometimes 3 players or 2 are escorted by defender and zone swithces - like Matrix :)

Sorry, I've tried my best. But my limited English and Gorgeous Russian GrrrlFriend in my bed didn't help me to concentrate.

Later.

Js

Jermaniac
04-08-2006, 03:05 AM
I dont care what kind of zone you play, no zone in this world can stop Kobe and Lebron.

themind
04-08-2006, 03:13 AM
I dont care what kind of zone you play, no zone in this world can stop Kobe and Lebron.

It seems so to you, cause in NBA they barely play zones. Zones are designed to stop stronger individuals with a help D. Kobe and Lebron will have problems against them, unless they'll manage to overjump the defenders :-o

The other thing that is not in NT USA's favour is different rules and coaching. The fact that most of the guys on the team never faced them will make a difference.

P.S. It's an advantage for European teams that I'm not proud of...

DeS
04-08-2006, 04:58 AM
I dont care what kind of zone you play, no zone in this world can stop Kobe and Lebron.
Last time I checked (Olympics) Lebron was absolute non-factor, although he already was a star in the NBA. Imo, the USA team must have a couple of quality 3pt shooters on-court to overcome zone defences.
Of course Lebron is better now, and Kobe will be tough to stop, but I doubt they will feel as comfortable as playing in the NBA.

bulldog
04-08-2006, 07:08 AM
I dont care what kind of zone you play, no zone in this world can stop Kobe and Lebron.
:pity:

rexnom
04-08-2006, 09:21 AM
Last time I checked (Olympics) Lebron was absolute non-factor, although he already was a star in the NBA. Imo, the USA team must have a couple of quality 3pt shooters on-court to overcome zone defences.
Of course Lebron is better now, and Kobe will be tough to stop, but I doubt they will feel as comfortable as playing in the NBA.'

Yeah, but the thing is he barely played. And when he did play he wasn't utilized correctly. LB did a crappy job coaching that team. Kobe and Lebron both can hit long shots if they are given the space, which will be given to them. Also, I think Coach K will arrange for there to be at least one shooter on the floor at all times. Of course they won't be as comfortable as in the NBA but I don't think they really need to be. Nobody is asking Kobe to score 40 a game here...I think he will do really well. He is an underrated shooter and passer...stats and percentages aren't everything. And as far as seeing the court and everyone there...LeBron is up there with the best of them.

Kestas
04-08-2006, 04:21 PM
Yeah...can't say I agree with that...I think Lithuania and Greece clearly have better teams. And Brazil and Australia can surprise.

yeap.. this group is stupid. only one team is a clear outsider, while five teams are of a realy high quality. there are 2003 and 2005 European champions (LTU and Greece), permanent champs of Australasia and runing champs of Americas (yes, Brasil beat Argentina in the 2005 finals, US finished 4th). plus Turkey. this is insane. unfortunately, one of those teams will not make it to the Top-16 :(
I hope it'll be Turkey.

rexnom
04-08-2006, 05:07 PM
yeap.. this group is stupid. only one team is a clear outsider, while five teams are of a realy high quality. there are 2003 and 2005 European champions (LTU and Greece), permanent champs of Australasia and runing champs of Americas (yes, Brasil beat Argentina in the 2005 finals, US finished 4th). plus Turkey. this is insane. unfortunately, one of those teams will not make it to the Top-16 :(
I hope it'll be Turkey.

Don't we all...they are definitely the least exciting team in that killer group...

Rytas_Jega
04-08-2006, 05:46 PM
If we bring the full strength squad we can expect at least semis.

Z.ILgauskas
D.Lavrinovic
M.Timinskas
R.Siskauskas
S.Jasikevicius

R.Javtokas or E.Zukauskas (if recovers well from injury)
K.Lavrinovic
S.Jasaitis or S.Stombergas (hope for captain's comback)
A.Maciajuskas
R.Kaukenas or V.Ginevicius (if Sireika refuses to take selfish pgs again)

D.Songaila
P.Jankunas or L.Kleiza

If we send "reserve" squad like in 2003 EC where they made 5-1 record... I doubt the story of Cinderella would have the same happy ending again.

rexnom
04-08-2006, 06:13 PM
If we bring the full strength squad we can expect at least semis.

Z.ILgauskas
D.Lavrinovic
M.Timinskas
R.Siskauskas
S.Jasikevicius

R.Javtokas or E.Zukauskas (if recovers well from injury)
K.Lavrinovic
S.Jasaitis or S.Stombergas (hope for captain's comback)
A.Maciajuskas
R.Kaukenas or V.Ginevicius (if Sireika refuses to take selfish pgs again)

D.Songaila
P.Jankunas or L.Kleiza

If we send "reserve" squad like in 2003 EC where they made 5-1 record... I doubt the story of Cinderella would have the same happy ending again.

Are saras and ilgauskas really gonna play? I heard that they weren't...maybe im off...

Rytas_Jega
04-08-2006, 06:34 PM
Are saras and ilgauskas really gonna play? I heard that they weren't...maybe im off...

Probably they won't play. But they haven't said "No" yet. So, I have a very little hope.

Stombergas, Zukauskas and Timinskas probably won't play, too.

Songaila says he'd like to play. However, I'm not sure how he recovers from injury. There's a big competion at his position.

And the season is still not over. Others' injuries are also possible.

Julius Sour
04-09-2006, 11:25 AM
Thank You for Your opinions on question 1.
Question 2:

If all of my friends overseas are talking about super Individual talents that will be invited to represent USA, how they are going to share ball touches?

Thank You.

Js

Hicks
04-09-2006, 12:08 PM
Can no one explain these 20 to 30 zone defenses?

rexnom
04-09-2006, 12:09 PM
Thank You for Your opinions on question 1.
Question 2:

If all of my friends overseas are talking about super Individual talents that will be invited to represent USA, how they are going to share ball touches?

Thank You.

Js

I think it's possible. Imagine a lineup of Chauncey Billups, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwight Howard, and Brad Miller. Kobe is already the designated leader and scorer of this team. The rest of those guys don't need to score or have the ball to be effective. Take out Kobe and put in Redd, now Bron becomes the scorer. Take out Billups, have Paul become the PG. Take out Howard and Miller put in Marion and Stoudamire. Then if you take out Bron and put in, say Paul Pierce, Pierce can be the scorer. I think it's all about the attitudes of the players. There aren't too many score-first type of guys. I count only Kobe and Pierce. The rest of the players in the original group have a variety of other talents that come along with their scoring. I'm not worried. This team is being built correctly.

rexnom
04-09-2006, 12:12 PM
Can no one explain these 20 to 30 zone defenses?

I don't think there is anyone on this board who could explain them in Xs and Os terms. Also, I think it was a bit of an exaggeration. I don't think there are 20-30 different zones. More like variations of different zones; 2-3 shifting, 2-3 sliding, 2-3 rotating, etc. Add all those creative variations upp and you probably get around 20 different "unique" types of zones.

Kestas
04-09-2006, 12:50 PM
Z.ILgauskas
E.Zukauskas (if recovers well from injury)
S.Stombergas (hope for captain's comback)


you know very well that these players are finished. Ilgauskas is too deep in his personal issues to ever play for Lithuania (a slight chance does exist, but not this year imho - if this happens in, say, 2008, the question will be if we actually need him at all), while Stombergas and E. Zukauskas have officially finished their careers in the NT and they are out of question no matter what. it is also very hard to imagine Timinskas even being invited to the camp after all of these years of lousy excuses from him..

on the other hand, our new team is deffinitely not worse than the former one. we have players, who will easily fill the shoes of Stombergas and Zukauskas. and we never even used Ilgauskas, so we do not have a hole to fill in this regard.. Brothers and javtokas are more than enough for now and we have a bunch of tall youngsters who are playing much better than Zukauskas did when he was their age. the only problem is at PG. it's almost obvious we'll have a replacement for Saras in 2008 and beyond, but right now we deffinitely have not got one. however, Saras is not a panacea..

Hicks
04-09-2006, 01:03 PM
I understand a shifting zone, but how do sliding and rotating ones work?

*edit* Actually, what I think a shifting one is could actually be a sliding zone, so could you describe all 3?

rexnom
04-09-2006, 01:39 PM
I understand a shifting zone, but how do sliding and rotating ones work?

*edit* Actually, what I think a shifting one is could actually be a sliding zone, so could you describe all 3?

Ok, I'm no expert and I'm not 100 on the terminology, so you someone else might do a better job but this is what I have learned from my experiences playing basketball in Europe:

Rotating zone is when players actually rotate from their defensive assignments. I've heard people call this a switching zone too. I.e. if the man playing playing right front in a 2-3 gets picked, you rotate to cover the hole. The amount of rotation you can get creative with. I guess you can rotate over the man playing right back, then the man playing middle rotates and so on.

Sliding zone is your basic zone where people just slide to cover, never moving out of their own positions. Now that I think about it, I think a shifting zone is the same is this.

I think the third one I had in mind was a trapping zone where players rotate to trap a certain player either in a corner or when he picks up his dribble.

I can't think of other ones right now but I've definitely played against and seen different kinds that are much more complicated and are executed to perfection but I couldn't tell you exactly what those are in that I just don't know them. I will say this though, I don't think I've ever seen a zone that starts off as anything different than a 2-3, 3-2, 1-2-2, 2-1-2 or 1-3-1. After that I think you just go off of variations. If any of the European members of this board know different, please correct me. This is as far as I go.

Hicks
04-09-2006, 01:43 PM
I think a shifting zone is different than a typical one in that the assigned areas shift with the ball (depending on which side of the court it's on). In other words, a zone that moves a little bit to flood the strong side.

rexnom
04-09-2006, 01:47 PM
I think a shifting zone is different than a typical one in that the assigned areas shift with the ball (depending on which side of the court it's on). In other words, a zone that moves a little bit to flood the strong side.
That would make sense. Like I said, I'm not 100 on the terms here. But what your saying definitely separates shifting and sliding. That's what, four variations and five zones? We got at least twenty here. And that's just us theorizing. I'm sure coaches come up with even more complicated varieties. Though, considering we were able to get most of these, I am not worried about Coach K and his staff.

Julius Sour
04-11-2006, 10:03 AM
Yao broke his foot.

This China team is built to be a contender at the Beijing Olympics. Now it looks like they are going to play ball at WC w/o Yao. The build up will slow down. Last Olympics Team China was playing decent basketball. Yao was 'an effect".

last Olys they were coached by Del Harris & Jonas Kazlauskas (http://www.fiba2006.com/news/news20060127_033_e.html)

Now Jonas is the headcoach. This is 2nd season for Jonas with Olympiacos. WC will also be his second competition with China basketball team 4 him.

Q:4 Are they doomed without Yao?

Thank You.

Js

PS Hicks, Jonas has like 5-7 zone D's ;)

bulldog
04-11-2006, 10:18 AM
[quote=Julius Sour]
Q:4 Are they doomed without Yao?/quote]

Utterly doomed. But the break might be good for him, needs a little rest after carrying the Rockets for a while. At least he's been proving his doubters wrong. Between Darko and Yao, it's been quite a banner year for two foreign guys people wrote off entirely.

SwissExpress
04-11-2006, 10:24 AM
I'm worried he may end up like Big Z. By the way, Bill Walton's problem was feet as well, correct?

As for the Chinese NT, it may be a good chance to see the other Chinese bigs "with nearly Yao's potential" that were being occasionally mentioned by press in recent years.

piksi
04-11-2006, 10:37 AM
I dont care what kind of zone you play, no zone in this world can stop Kobe and Lebron.

Once you apply the BB rules those 2 players won't be as effective as they are in the NBA. It might be a shock for You but internacionally there are rules like traveling and palming the ball etc. They are called. Period. Look for both of them to have bunch of turnovers.

piksi
04-11-2006, 10:39 AM
I'm trying to understand what they actually are, in an X's and O's sense.

so do the opponent's coaches. There are so many variations - it is crazy. Every of the top coaches is pretty unique in therms of what he does. In general, 2 teams can play the same zone defense (2-3 for example), it they could look totally different.

Julius Sour
04-11-2006, 10:42 AM
so do the opponent's coaches. There are so many variations - it is crazy. Every of the top coaches is pretty unique in therms of what he does. In general, 2 teams can play the same zone defense (2-3 for example), it they could look totally different.


Thank You:fireworks

Js