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3ballinhoop
04-06-2006, 11:51 AM
Since an official Jasikevicius thread was started to center the discussion on him, I think now is the time to create the official Tinsley thread. Others have asked for it as well, as it gets tiring to read about a guy who most probably won't even be in Indiana next season in every single thread.

So, here you go; the thread for everything about the Tinman.

Jermaniac
04-06-2006, 11:54 AM
Jamaal Tinsley is God, after a 0-2 start in the playoffs Jamaal Tinsley will be put in the starting line up and the Pacers will win the series 4-3.

Mourning
04-06-2006, 12:35 PM
Since an official Jasikevicius thread was started to center the discussion on him, I think now is the time to create the official Tinsley thread. Others have asked for it as well, as it gets tiring to read about a guy who most probably won't even be in Indiana next season in every single thread.

So, here you go; the thread for everything about the Tinman.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: toucher!!!

Slick Pinkham
04-06-2006, 12:49 PM
When healthy and properly motivated (by who knows what) Tinsley is a well above average PG on offense and an average defender (I say average because he has great hands but feet of stone).

The other 80% of the time, when he is either NOT healthy or NOT motivated, he doesn't add much to the team.

I may be generous in that 20-80 split and some might say 10-90.

Roaming Gnome
04-06-2006, 12:55 PM
I'm starting to believe that the "magic" Tinsley had when he first got into the league is totally gone. The truly sad part is that even if he had some "abuser" left in him...he is too injury prone to want to have to depend on.

Brian
04-06-2006, 04:27 PM
Its weird,all over NBAtv the other night they were saying "Tinsley is one of the top 5 pg's in the NBA when he is healthy".And sometimes he just looks great,and other times he looks awful.Just like everyone on this team.

We just expect more from tins because we have seen what he *CAN* be.

Evan_The_Dude
04-06-2006, 04:33 PM
I think it's unfair to call him the Tinman. Those are expectations he can't and won't meet.

Seed
04-06-2006, 04:40 PM
Jamaal Tinsley is God, after a 0-2 start in the playoffs Jamaal Tinsley will be put in the starting line up and the Pacers will win the series 4-3.

4-3??
You mean god almighty shall loose a basketball game to the NJ Nets?
You need a visit to the holyland, pal.

Alpolloloco
04-06-2006, 04:53 PM
Jamaal Tinsley is God, after a 0-2 start in the playoffs Jamaal Tinsley will be put in the starting line up and the Pacers will win the series 4-3.

Jamaal hasn't even be healthy in the last 2 playoffs and, as a matter of fact, so does your beloved Jermaine.

I hope you're right because I'm first and formost a Pacers fan. There are players I like and those I don't like but to constantly compare JO & JT with God, or saying they stand above their team, is complete nonsense.

Root for the Pacers, root for your favorite players but don't overreact so much.

D-BONE
04-06-2006, 04:56 PM
Its weird,all over NBAtv the other night they were saying "Tinsley is one of the top 5 pg's in the NBA when he is healthy".

Had they been drinking? Was their judgment influenced by the use of hallucinogens?

Fireball Kid
04-06-2006, 04:59 PM
Jamaal Tinsley is God, after a 0-2 start in the playoffs Jamaal Tinsley will be put in the starting line up and the Pacers will win the series 4-3.
:rotflmao::lolchair:
:lol2:

efx
04-06-2006, 05:02 PM
Had they been drinking? Was their judgment influenced by the use of hallucinogens?

I didn't know Ragnar got a job at NBATV ;) jk

hoopsforlife
04-06-2006, 05:04 PM
Jamaal Tinsley is God, after a 0-2 start in the playoffs Jamaal Tinsley will be put in the starting line up and the Pacers will win the series 4-3.

I hope your'e not serious because if you are you have a serious problem.... :neutral:

Jaydawg2270
04-06-2006, 05:22 PM
Jamaal Tinsley is God, after a 0-2 start in the playoffs Jamaal Tinsley will be put in the starting line up and the Pacers will win the series 4-3.

I hope your are serious :)

brichard
04-06-2006, 05:25 PM
I hope your'e not serious because if you are you have a serious problem.... :neutral:

I believe that since this thread was started by a Saras fan, Jermaniac has tried to post ala a Saras fan in defense of Tinsley.

I could be wrong though... it's happened before.

:cool:

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 06:11 PM
goodness gracious you guys are dense.

What happened 11 months ago?

We were on our way to a first round playoff exit when Jamaal returned, and single-handedly led this team past Boston.

Jerm is just predicting a repeat.

What's so funny/ strange about that. History can and does repeat itself.

Just like Jamaal is always injured, he's also the #1 key for the Pacers to win a playoff series.

As Reggie said back in November, as Jamaal goes, so go the Pacers.

That's a double-edged sword, but it is 100% true. When he's on his game, we are an elite team. When he's injured/ off his game, we ain't so good.

There are no available PGs that could keep us at elite status.

We've either got to hope he gets healthy and a better attitude under his new coach (can we trade Saras to Cleveland for Mike Brown, please?) or realize that we're heading for lottery-land until we find a capable replacement.

brichard
04-06-2006, 06:15 PM
What happened 11 months ago?

We were on our way to a first round playoff exit when Jamaal returned, and single-handedly led this team past Boston.



And again I'll ask.. what happened after that? Jeff Foster single handedly (in a game) helped us beat Detroit last year in the playoffs. Should we now chain our future to him?

As good as Tinsley was at Boston he was very ho hum against Detroit. Why you ask? Because he is Jamaal Tinsley. Great one day and horrible the next. And when you couple that with his injuries/attitude are you really surprised by the lack of love he receives?

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 07:02 PM
I'm not surprised by the lack of love.

I'm surprised at all the venom directed towards him.

He's at worst 1/100th of the disruption to the team that Artest was. But Artest was blindly supported by the majority of PD right up until his trade demand.

All I can figure is that all of the anger that Ron should've received is being directed at Tinsley.

I still beleive SJax and Saras are far more disruptive to the team that Tinsley.

I acknowledge there's a problem here. But I blame Rick for it, not Jamaal.

(Just like I blamed PJ Carlesimo for the problems leading up to the Sprewell incident. That does NOT excuse what Sprewell ultimately did; and I'm NOT suggesting that Tinsley and Rick are going to have a physical confrontation. I'm just saying that sometimes the coach deserves the blame for creating a toxic relationship; not the player. And IMO, this is one of those times.)

brichard
04-06-2006, 07:30 PM
I'm not surprised by the lack of love.

I'm surprised at all the venom directed towards him.

He's at worst 1/100th of the disruption to the team that Artest was. But Artest was blindly supported by the majority of PD right up until his trade demand.

All I can figure is that all of the anger that Ron should've received is being directed at Tinsley.

I still beleive SJax and Saras are far more disruptive to the team that Tinsley.

I acknowledge there's a problem here. But I blame Rick for it, not Jamaal.

(Just like I blamed PJ Carlesimo for the problems leading up to the Sprewell incident. That does NOT excuse what Sprewell ultimately did; and I'm NOT suggesting that Tinsley and Rick are going to have a physical confrontation. I'm just saying that sometimes the coach deserves the blame for creating a toxic relationship; not the player. And IMO, this is one of those times.)

This is what I don't understand. I looked at your post regarding who stays/goes, and of your starting 5 Tinsley and Jack are the most likely people to get shipped out. Those are the two people who get the bulk of the criticism lately... right? I think the only reason Jamaal is garnering a little more attention recently is b/c there is a contingent of folks who defend him.

Jack threads have become boring b/c there may be only 2 people on the board who want him to stay.

I've mentioned this earlier and I'll say it again, "At what point do we give Jamaal the credit/blame for his play?" We are not behind closed doors, so perhaps RC is telling JT to lighten up on the hot dogging and highlight passes. If RC is giving proper instruction and JT isn't responding, doesn't he share some of the blame? And shouldn't it be glaringly obvious to Tinsley about his erratic play with/without Carlisle telling him?

In NY Brown is having a tough time with Marbury. Brown is about as solid a coach as you will find anywhere. Is Brown to blame or Marbury? At some level it is pointed at both, but based on history I would think that Marbury seems to be the one with the most issues.

JT started having some issues with Isiah and he has also had some issues with RC. You can tell just by his body language alone that he has a chip on his shoulder. And obviously this is a coach and player issue. They go together about as well as sodium and water.

For the record I am ready for both of them to go.

brich
04-06-2006, 07:30 PM
I think the symptom right now is that Tinsley is not playing well right now. I don't think that he is playing well right now because he has been injured. Tins isn't in great basketball shap yet, and his timing, shooting, and passing are all a little off. He should be in better shape by playoff time, if we make the playoffs, as long as he is able to get some reasonable playing time in.

His attitude is another story. Who knows, he could just be frustrated by the way he is playing, Carlisle's system could be wearing on him, or it could be door number 3. This is something that Rick, Tins, and whoever the leader on this team needs to address.

I mentioned earlier that his play is the symptom, the problem, IMO (which has been mentioned of course) is that he gets injured alot. People can argue whether this is his fault or not (not being in good shape/bad luck/whatever), but it is clearly an issue. Based on the past few years of history, the Pacers would be better off with somebody less talented and more durable.

I think Larry brought Sarunas in to be his insurance policy for this, but that definitely is not going to be a viable strategy this year. I don't think there is anybody we could trade for that would be good enough to solve our problem. There aren't that many high caliber point guards in the league, and let's face it, everybody else out there also knows about his injury history, and that would be a factor i a trade scenario.

I think our best solution is to try and draft a high potential point guard, and start bringing him along. We would probably need to trade up to do this. In the meantime, you hope that Tinsley stays healthy, and Sarunas adapts quickly to the NBA game. I think you have to keep AJ, because he is just a solid backup, and he knows that. He accepts his role like a pro.

Point guards and centers are really tough in the NBA. It is very easy to make yourself worse, but it is very difficult to make yourself better. I am sure that alot of teams are jealous at the depth we have at the position. Hopefully we can find a way to make better use of our assets. Our half-court ISO ball shackles Sarunas and Tinsley. We need a find a way to add a little West Coast to our offense without losing our East Coast defense.

brichard
04-06-2006, 07:40 PM
He's at worst 1/100th of the disruption to the team that Artest was. But Artest was blindly supported by the majority of PD right up until his trade demand.

I don't agree with that statement at all. Artest has had lots of detractors from day 1 and post brawl the overwhelming majority wanted him gone.

Don't confuse the feeling of love and the desire to keep somebody long enough to hopefully increase his trade value. Some people, like myself, were fine to get rid of Ron but weren't ready to trade him for a bag of chips. Fortunately we did end up getting a pretty good player in spite of Ron being Ron, but it would have been much easier if we could keep him sane for a long enough period of time.

What I never could see about Artest was how far wacko he would go. The media and everybody else portrayed him as a loose cannon, but rarely did he have actual player confrontations. He committed hard fouls and liked to destroy property, but we wasn't as violent as say a Barkley, Laimbeer, or Rodman was. I still wonder what would have happened if Barkley would have been hit by a cup of beer. Actually I don't wonder, I know what he would have done. He would have went in the stands without a second thought. But b/c he is a star, there is no way he would have sat out the entire season.

I really think it was just the wrong action to the wrong player at the wrong time. Lots of folks (Barkley, Rasheed, Rodman, Laimbeer) had far more instances of volatitily than Artest before the brawl, but none of them crossed that line. But I bet a bunch of them would have given the circumstances.

Bball
04-06-2006, 08:06 PM
and I'm NOT suggesting that Tinsley and Rick are going to have a physical confrontation. I'm just saying that sometimes the coach deserves the blame for creating a toxic relationship; not the player. And IMO, this is one of those times.)

What do you think or know that Carlisle has done to create a toxic relationship and justify Tinsley's actions?

I think he risked team chemistry just to give Tinsley the starting role back in the first place. And you can look at that from a few different angles- 1. he threw everything out of kilter that the team had been doing and did so at a time when JO was also returning.... 2. Was bringing Tinsley back actually a popular and supported move with all or even a majority of the players? 3. Did he do it because he felt it was best or did he do it because he felt he no longer has control of this team?

But anyone that thinks Tinsley is the only problem is just fooling themselves. I say he's just one of those people that just isn't going to make a bad situation anything but worse. Maybe with some real leadership on the court and on the bench things could have been different with Tinsley... maybe... But now (IMHO) the mold is cast.

-Bball

pizza guy
04-06-2006, 08:35 PM
Jamaal Tinsley needs to be gone, period.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 09:39 PM
bball, at the time the move was made, the players *were* responding to Jamaal and it made sense to put him back in his spot. Since then, the players have clearly not responded well to Tinsley. Peja, in particular, seemed out of sync.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 09:40 PM
I don't agree with that statement at all. Artest has had lots of detractors from day 1 and post brawl the overwhelming majority wanted him gone.

We must have been on different PDs at the time. :flirt:

The, "Just give him one more chance. Its all Stern's fault" brigade was out in full force, with full voice.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 09:43 PM
What do you think or know that Carlisle has done to create a toxic relationship and justify Tinsley's actions?

Overbearing. Calling all the plays. Lack of trust. Won't let them run.

From a PGs perspective, that is perpetually insulting.

If I spent three years working for a perpetually insulting boss, I'd have an attitude too.

:shrug:

Jermaniac
04-06-2006, 09:44 PM
I hope your'e not serious because if you are you have a serious problem.... :neutral:I dont have no serious problems. I'm good. But maybe you should go watch the Boston series and see what happend when Jamaal Tinsley came back to the starting lineup, in his first game back in months.

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 09:47 PM
What happened 11 months ago?

We were on our way to a first round playoff exit when Jamaal returned, and single-handedly led this team past Boston.






I realize you are using a little hyperbole, but I thought I would look back at the stats because I honestly forgot if Tinsley played well or not when he came back. I do know that he did help the Pacers get into their offense against the Celtics defensive pressure. But did he really play that well.

But here are the stats

Game 5
28 mins
3-9 FG
6 pts
7 assists
4 -turnovers
5 steals

Game 6
28 mins
3-11 FG
6 points
3 assists
3 turnovers

Game 7
24 mins
2-5
6 pts
5 assists.
2 turnovers

Shade
04-06-2006, 09:48 PM
Damn, just shows you how badly we suck. Even with two Gods on the team, we're sub-.500.

Jermaniac
04-06-2006, 09:49 PM
Gods have set backs from time to time

Jermaniac
04-06-2006, 09:50 PM
I realize you are using a little hyperbole, but I thought I would look back at the stats because I honestly forgot if Tinsley played well or not when he came back. I do know that he did help the Pacers get into their offense against the Celtics defensive pressure. But did he really play that well.

But here are the stats

Game 5
28 mins
3-9 FG
6 pts
7 assists
4 -turnovers
5 steals

Game 6
28 mins
3-11 FG
6 points
3 assists
3 turnovers

Game 7
24 mins
2-5
6 pts
5 assists.
2 turnovers
Look at Danny's stats after some games, if a person who never watched him play just looked at those stats, they would say wow this guy sucks. Stats dont tell the whole story.

We won that series because Jamaal came back.

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 09:52 PM
Look at Danny's stats after some games, if a person who never watched him play just looked at those stats, they would say wow this guy sucks. Stats dont tell the whole story.

We won that series because Jamaal came back.



I'm just throwing the stats out there, for whatever they are worth. I'm certainly not a stats guy, in fact I rarely look at them.

But I really don't think we won the series because JT came back. But even if we did, I don't care. He sucks this season, there is something seriously wrong with him.

Shade
04-06-2006, 09:57 PM
I agree with those who say that Tins' return was key to winning that series against the Celtics. We were clearly in trouble without him.

Sollozzo
04-06-2006, 10:25 PM
goodness gracious you guys are dense.

What happened 11 months ago?

We were on our way to a first round playoff exit when Jamaal returned, and single-handedly led this team past Boston.

Jerm is just predicting a repeat.

What's so funny/ strange about that. History can and does repeat itself.

Just like Jamaal is always injured, he's also the #1 key for the Pacers to win a playoff series.

As Reggie said back in November, as Jamaal goes, so go the Pacers.

That's a double-edged sword, but it is 100% true. When he's on his game, we are an elite team. When he's injured/ off his game, we ain't so good.

There are no available PGs that could keep us at elite status.

We've either got to hope he gets healthy and a better attitude under his new coach (can we trade Saras to Cleveland for Mike Brown, please?) or realize that we're heading for lottery-land until we find a capable replacement.

You make some good points.

But honestly, are we supposed to go through this every year? Are we supposed to watch him play 50 or so games while the team seasaws back and forth?

The Pacers aren't an "elite" team with Tinsley. There is nothing that the Pacers can do with this current group of players that will put them into elite status. Tinsley or no Tinsley, the Pacers will get creamed by Detroit, Miami, or New Jersey in the first round.

I don't think its worth it to go through this every season with him. If we could sign or trade for a solid pg who we can count on to play an entire season, we need to do it. That player may not provide the spark that Tinsley does in his 50 or so games, but atleast he could maybe be consistant.

The problem is obviously finding that player.

While you can't understand the venom for Tinsley, I can't understand the venom for Jackson. The guy plays every game. He is clearly banged up at times, but he never sits. Does he lose his head sometimes? Yes, but the Pacers obviously should have known that when they got him.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 10:44 PM
Ahhh...

PD's search function is dangerous.

Here's UB's thread enthusiastically announcing how good Tinsley looked as he was getting ready to return...

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11334


Pacers need him when Banks and West are pressuring the ball full court.

Tinsley looked in great shape. As thin as ever.

VA's unquestioned love for Tinsley after Game #5:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11487

Rick's postgame (Game #5) comments on JT:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11494

Suave's declaration of a new religion focused on Tinsley:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11483

Ahh... my favorite... notice UB's comments in here:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11496


-snip- Jamaal Tinsley makes such a remarkable difference. The Pacers are a different team when he in on the floor. I love AJ as much as anyone. And AJ made the biggest shot of the game, when he hit a 3 with about 7 minutes to go in the of 4th, Pacers had not scored a FG in about 8 minutes. But AJ is not JT. Jamaal makes the game so much easier for everyone, he just makes plays, he creates offense, he breaks pressure and without Jamaal the Pacers are not nearly as good. His defense off the ball coming up with steals was a huge key tonight. He is disruptive on the defensive end and yet he makes everything work on the offensive end. Doc said they were worried JT would play and they know they can't pressure him

Seriously, I can't make this ***** up, but this is fun so I'm going to keep digging.

Tinsley played badly in Game #6, and we lost. Here's Peck's summary:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11576


-snip- The bad.

-snip-

Jamaal Tinsley is like a box of Chocolates, you just never know what you are going to get. Talk about a momentum killer, those three straight threes he missed all but sucked the oxygen out of the fieldhouse. Small children were crying when he shot that last one. He was great about getting under Paytons & Pierces skin however he lost his cool after he & Gary got the double "T's". Then he went from Jamaal Tinsley supreme point guard for the Indiana Pacers to Mel Mel the abuser who then took it upon himself to abuse us. His one on one crap vs. Banks was rediculas.

After Game #7, Rick gave the game ball to Fred (playing with broken finger) and Jamaal (only his third game back from a major foot injury)

Peck's Game #7 odd thoughts:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11665


J.T. He scared me to start the second half because he tried a couple of ill advised shots early on, but he settled quickly & once again became the devastating p.g. who just abused their full court pressure that we all loved in game 5. He ball hawked on defense, which can drive you insane when he leaves his man but he is so damn good at it that you almost have to live with it. Then he hit a couple of big shots in the 4th quarter to pretty much shut the door on the Celtics season. It will be sweet if he can stay healthy & get in better shape.

I'll add this from bball, I need to find more glowing comments from him about Tinsley but this will have to work for the time being...


Tinsley and AJ. I did notice after Tinsley went out that he had his thigh wrapped and what looked like iced. I hope that isn't some new injury to slow him down. Having Tinsley and AJ available for Detroit feels good. Also, let's not forget how well AJ played against Detroit last year in the ECF's. And quite possibly Tinsley will be HEALTHIER this time than last playoffs (hopefully the thigh issue is nothing).

So that's that.

And who was the key to our big Game #2 victory in Detroit?

Ask Peck:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11824


Jamaal Tinsely. He changed the game. His penatration & ability to get to the rim just absolutely had Detroit on thier heals the entire second half & you could tell Brown was getting p!ssed that he was getting to wherever he wanted to get to on the floor. Obviousley he wasn't mad enough to bring in Carlos but hey, it's his loss not ours. Look Jamaal is a punk a lot of times & I'm sure if I was a fan of other teams I'd hate the guy. But Jamaal is all about war when he is on that floor, he has no friends on the other team & he could care less who he upsets or offends when he is playing. This works to our advantage a lot of times, sometimes when he draws "T's" it works against us. But either way you know that he is going to compete.

Will Galen agreed:


Actually I think a healthy Tinsley gives us the advantage. However he's not completly healthy yet. What I think it will boil down to is Detroit is going to stop his drives and leave him open. I think how we fare will depend on how well he shoots.

And once again, UncleBuck offered this after our game #3 victory:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11885


But what I see different from last seasons series is the Pistons shotblocking is not causing nearly the problems that it did last year. I suppose I attribute that to better outside shooting, better offense by the pacers and the fact that Tinsley is causing the Pistons so much trouble.

One word of caution, Tinsley had a big heating pad on his right shoulder every time he was on the bench last night, so he seems to be breaking down physically already.

There's an interesting exchange in there between UB and Peck, but by now you get the point.

In winning games #5 and #7 in Boston, Game #2 in Detroit and Game #3 in Indy, Jamaal Tinsley was key.

He wasn't really in shape, rushing back from his injury, and neither was JO. And that team was just too shorthanded to have any chance to beat the Pistons four times in seven games.

But, again, without Tinsley, there would have been no playoff series against Detroit. Period. And without Tinsley, we would've been swept by Detroit.

Anybody really want to keep up this particular argument??

:D

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 10:46 PM
While you can't understand the venom for Tinsley, I can't understand the venom for Jackson. The guy plays every game. He is clearly banged up at times, but he never sits. Does he lose his head sometimes? Yes, but the Pacers obviously should have known that when they got him.

Jackson is easy to explain. He's turnover prone and he shoots a very poor FG%. And he's easily distracted by the officials and wildly inconsistent at defense.

He's everything I hate in a SG all at once.

SoupIsGood
04-06-2006, 10:48 PM
We all know he's a good player, he's just always hurt. Byeee tins.

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 10:49 PM
I don't like Jay anymore

Good night

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 10:55 PM
Ah, c'mon.

We haven't had a good go-round like this in months.

:buddies:

How would PD react if we ever agreed on something?

:brick:

brichard
04-06-2006, 11:14 PM
Jay,

While you are re-visiting things, you may want to check the boxscores. I know, I know... they don't tell the whole story. However, it is good information to look at.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/stats/2004/conf_quarter_stats.html

Jamaal shot a blistering 20% from the arc, about 52% from the FT line, and averaged 6 assists... but also had 3 TO's per game. I remember loving his tenacity and emotion during that run even in Detroit (And 1 explecetive!)

However... his body started breaking down as it always does as another Pacer playoff team came crashing to the ground. We won 2 games against Detroit and one of those rested on the shoulders of Jeff Foster. I'm not sure what he had for breakfast that morning, but he single handedly kept us in that game on both sides of the ball.

Jermaniac
04-06-2006, 11:15 PM
Ohh man I wish I had a video of AND 1 MOTHER%&$*#(#)

brichard
04-06-2006, 11:26 PM
Here is one that is even more detailed.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/playoffs/inddet

Did Jamaal play well in our victories? He played very well. Did he stink in our losses? Yep. You can't give Tinsley all the credit for the wins without giving him some credit for the losses. Two assists and 6 turnovers in game 1 and 0-6 from the field in game 7 are 2 pretty forgettable performances.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 11:31 PM
Brichard,

3 TOs per game and 6 APG is an ATO of 2.0. That's "good" for a PG.

And nobody says Jamaal won those games because of his shooting. He rushed back from his injury to get on the court, he didn't have his shooting legs (and yes, of course, one could argue that he's never had shooting legs.)

He won those games because he reinvigorated the offense, and the team rallied around him.

Jamaal broke down because he rushed back to get on the court in the first place. Just like he did this year.

I guess he should just act like Bender and wear a suit until he's 100% ready.

EDIT - as Reggie said, "As Jamaal goes, so go the Pacers." When he's good, we're good. When he's hurt or bad, we aren't so good.

And probably, when he's gone, we'll be staring at a long stretch of mediocrity. At least until we find a PG as good as Jamaal (when he's on.)

One constant of DW's teams - they are generally dependent on a high quality PG to be anything better than mediocre over the course of a season. Or, in the case of the 1993-94 team, once Pooh went down at least Vern and Haywoode were playing at a very high level. But the team really took off and stayed near the top when Jackson arrived. Micheal Williams? Not good enough. Travis/ Haywoode? Not good enough. Jalen? Ugh. AJ and Saras? Still a 0.500 team.

brichard
04-07-2006, 12:03 AM
Brichard,

3 TOs per game and 6 APG is an ATO of 2.0. That's "good" for a PG.

And nobody says Jamaal won those games because of his shooting. He rushed back from his injury to get on the court, he didn't have his shooting legs (and yes, of course, one could argue that he's never had shooting legs.)
He won those games because he reinvigorated the offense, and the team rallied around him.

I beg to differ. The games we won he did shoot well. His ATO may be "good" but it is nothing to jump up and down about. With the exception of one game by Detroit, the ATO was always higher than that for the winning team's PG.

Obviously his dribble penetration and ability to maneuver helps the team in spite of his scoring. However, you can't afford for one of your guards to get a goose egg in the scoring column. He doesn't have to be a primary scorer, but he has to get his 10 or so every night.


Jamaal broke down because he rushed back to get on the court in the first place. Just like he did this year. I guess he should just act like Bender and wear a suit until he's 100% ready.

And what is your excuse for him this year. I think he is doing a pretty darned good imitation of Bender. He hasn't perfected it yet, but I don't want to give him the opportunity. How you can casually ignore his durability fascinates me.


EDIT - as Reggie said, "As Jamaal goes, so go the Pacers." When he's good, we're good. When he's hurt or bad, we aren't so good.And probably, when he's gone, we'll be staring at a long stretch of mediocrity. At least until we find a PG as good as Jamaal (when he's on.) One constant of DW's teams - they are generally dependent on a high quality PG to be anything better than mediocre over the course of a season. Or, in the case of the 1993-94 team, once Pooh went down at least Vern and Haywoode were playing at a very high level. But the team really took off and stayed near the top when Jackson arrived. Micheal Williams? Not good enough. Travis/ Haywoode? Not good enough. Jalen? Ugh. AJ and Saras? Still a 0.500 team.

Game one JT has a terrible game in Detroit. In game 2 and 3 he is good. Now if we are blaming his Jeckyl/Hyde performance on injury, did he miraculously recover after game 1? It just doesn't make sense. He played bad in game one b/c he played bad.

And if the Pacers go as Jamaal goes, this team is in serious trouble. Why? Because he is not reliable when healthy and is definitely not reliable when he is not. If you were a Nascar driver would you keep hitching your dreams to an engine that blows with great frequency or would you replace the engine. Even if somebody told you you were giving up one of the best engines of all time, you'd have to scratch your head and say "What does it matter if it is broken down all the time?"

And contrary to the picture you paint, on rare occassion when he is healthy, JT is not the model of consistency you would have us believe. He is the same guy to win 2 games for you in Detroit and he's also the same guy to lose game 6 b/c he can't hit water if he fell out of a boat.

I have to believe a large part of what you are doing is just defending JT for the sake of giving him a fair trial, but you can't just dismiss all of his injuries with a shoulder shrug.

ChicagoJ
04-07-2006, 12:46 AM
I don't dismiss his injuries. If he's traded because he's injury prone, I'm okay with that. I'm just not hammering that point because there's nothing more to say about it.

Go back to "This team is Built for the Regular Season." 13 months ago. I'm all over Tinsley for his injury tendency there, and I haven't renounced it.

But there's nothing new to say about it.

However, if he's traded for any other reason, I'm not sure I'm okay with that.

Bball
04-07-2006, 01:38 AM
Ahhh...



I'll add this from bball, I need to find more glowing comments from him about Tinsley but this will have to work for the time being...

Originally Posted by Bball
Tinsley and AJ. I did notice after Tinsley went out that he had his thigh wrapped and what looked like iced. I hope that isn't some new injury to slow him down. Having Tinsley and AJ available for Detroit feels good. Also, let's not forget how well AJ played against Detroit last year in the ECF's. And quite possibly Tinsley will be HEALTHIER this time than last playoffs (hopefully the thigh issue is nothing).




:D

I'm not sure what glowing report I gave Tinsley but I was serious about AJ's good play against Detroit in the previous year. That wasn't sarcasm.

But last year the options at PG were limited compared to this year. Having Tinsley available last year (or the last couple of years) was more important than it is now. (And then it was a matter of crossing our fingers and hope Good Jamaal PG showed up that night and not Bad Jamaal PG)

Also, I'm very much inclined to look at the here and now ...and right now Tinsley is not a starting PG and his demeanor sucks (and this is not a recent development).

I seem to recall Tinsley being a factor in the Boston series but it was more in changing our look and catching them off guard for a game and then giving us depth at PG for the rest of the series. ...Not that he was Michael Jordan or the Lone Ranger riding in to save the day.

-Bball

Suaveness
04-07-2006, 01:46 AM
I don't dismiss his injuries. If he's traded because he's injury prone, I'm okay with that. I'm just not hammering that point because there's nothing more to say about it.

Go back to "This team is Built for the Regular Season." 13 months ago. I'm all over Tinsley for his injury tendency there, and I haven't renounced it.

But there's nothing new to say about it.

However, if he's traded for any other reason, I'm not sure I'm okay with that.


Jay, I did say that. And I do think that it was because of him that we won that series.

You have to believe me when I think he has all the talent in the world. I think he is one of the most important players on this team, when he's playing.

He is out so often, that is what upsets me more than anything. Granted it isn't his fault, but we can't have him starting if this is such a continuous problem. PG is THE most important position, IMO.

ChicagoJ
04-07-2006, 09:42 AM
Well, "C" is more important than PG, but its a valid point.

He needs to play consistently.

I just wonder if a coaching change could enhance that?

McClintic Sphere
04-07-2006, 10:17 AM
Well, "C" is more important than PG, but its a valid point.

He needs to play consistently.

I just wonder if a coaching change could enhance that?

Are you talking in general here, or for our team in particular as far as what we are needing for upgrade, because I'd really like to know your reasoning here.

Los Angeles
04-07-2006, 12:51 PM
Look at Jay's post mining.

Look at the stats from the Boston series.

Let's look at history and see what it tells us about Tinsley.

- TINSLEY IS ... a terrible shooter that likes to shoot.
- TINSLEY IS ... our greatest asset or our worst liability - just flip a coin to find out which one is going to show up on any given day.
- TINSLEY IS ... demanding a starting job when his injury status has forced a smorgasbord of backups to take the starting job over 40 games a year two years in a row. FORTY. GAMES. A. YEAR.
- TINSLEY IS ... inevitably injured during the playoffs.
- TINSLEY IS ... owed around 35 MILLION DOLLARS over the remainder of his BRAND NEW contract.
- TINSLEY IS ... prone to forget that there a four other teammates on the court with him when he gets flustered. (BTW, that's exactly the worst possible time to forget about your teammates ... especially when you're the point guard.)
- TINSLEY IS ... all too willing to throw himself in front of an opposing player who is running full speed up the court (for a guy with a history injuries, that's just plain stupid.)
- TINSLEY IS ... all too willing to throw his body onto the court in an attempt to win a foul (again, for a guy with a history of injuries, that's just plain stupid.)
- TINSLEY IS ... half the player he used to be, if he ever was that player at all.

And still after last season's playoffs, I was willing to give Tinsley another season to prove that he had what it takes to be an elite point guard. How far did he make it? 3 games? Maybe?

I've been told multiple times that I am too negative and unwilling to take the bad with the good when it comes to our players. There is so much bad that comes with Tinsley. So much bad I can't believe ANYONE is left to support him.

And guess what? Unless they are living under a rock, every GM out there knows about all of this.

Look at us. We thought that this team was a championship contender:

Tinsley
Jackson
Artest
O'Neal
Foster

With the possible exception of Foster, I'm embarrassed by that lineup. No, I'm not. I'm actually ashamed.

:rain:

D-BONE
04-07-2006, 01:04 PM
Jackson is easy to explain. He's turnover prone and he shoots a very poor FG%. And he's easily distracted by the officials and wildly inconsistent at defense.

He's everything I hate in a SG all at once.

I don't disagree about what you say about SJ here. However easily distracted, wildly inconsistent, and poor FG % all apply just as much to JT. I will buy that Jack's attitude has caused major tension on the team. But, face it, he's really a secondary guy on this team.

It's so easy to just scapegoat Jackson and Carlisle. People have to at least accept that there are numerous other potential problems with/on this team. Who are supposed to be the leaders/stars of this team? JO and JT. Where in the hell have they been for the last two years?

This team is fatally flawed. They are stained by the Artest fiasco and their own immaturity and lack of realization of their potential. We need to gut the entire core.

ChicagoJ
04-07-2006, 02:00 PM
Are you talking in general here, or for our team in particular as far as what we are needing for upgrade, because I'd really like to know your reasoning here.

yeah, I really wasn't clear.

The two most important roster spots for a competitive team are C and PG, in that order. Those are also the two hardest positions to learn in the NBA, and the two positions currently with a scarcity of legit NBA-caliber players

I think we've got a budding C on our hands in David, but we risk significant downgrading at PG if we unload Tinsley and don't get somebody just as talented, but more reliable.

We've tried the "less talented but more consistent" approach. His name is AJ. And we're 0.500. And we'd be 0.500 with Mike James at PG. And we'd be well-below 0.500 with Brevin Knight.

Anyway, I've said recently and I'll say it again that I think this team is on its way to years of mediocrity if they unload Tinsley and think the solution is either (1) already on the roster or (2) can replace him with an inferior player with more consistent health.

The same would be even more true if the unloaded David and did not get a legit, wide-bodied "C" in return.

NBA-caliber PGs and Cs don't grow on trees.

Los Angeles
04-07-2006, 02:07 PM
You're right Jay. We should never accept mediocrity. Not in Basketball. Not in life.

Tinsley's talent combined with Tinsley's availability puts him in the mediocre category. We are no better off starting one of the other guys consistently than we are flip-flopping Tinsley in and out of the line-up. The only thing we can really do is try to out-bid a PG leaving his rookie contract.

How long until we can offer Hinrich 12 mil a year? What has to happen in the mean time to free up the money?

Bball
04-07-2006, 02:31 PM
yeah, I really wasn't clear.

The two most important roster spots for a competitive team are C and PG, in that order. Those are also the two hardest positions to learn in the NBA, and the two positions currently with a scarcity of legit NBA-caliber players

I think we've got a budding C on our hands in David, but we risk significant downgrading at PG if we unload Tinsley and don't get somebody just as talented, but more reliable.

We've tried the "less talented but more consistent" approach. His name is AJ. And we're 0.500. And we'd be 0.500 with Mike James at PG. And we'd be well-below 0.500 with Brevin Knight.

Anyway, I've said recently and I'll say it again that I think this team is on its way to years of mediocrity if they unload Tinsley and think the solution is either (1) already on the roster or (2) can replace him with an inferior player with more consistent health.

The same would be even more true if the unloaded David and did not get a legit, wide-bodied "C" in return.

NBA-caliber PGs and Cs don't grow on trees.


Are you thinking that Tinsley's status (read: injury 'proneness') will change with a new coach? ... because even if I could have my arm twisted enough to believe I should give him a second chance under a new coach I don't know how much more of his lack of availability I could buy into- following what I think is your line of reasoning.

The fact management went out and got a 4th PG doesn't give me the warm fuzzies that tell me they have much confidence in him either.

And I'm starting to wonder if Walsh didn't open the checkbook to show Jamaal some love and this is how he repays that 'love'.

I don't know... I think Tinsley is a cancerous presence and the sooner he's gone the better. You're talking about us being .500 with a mediocre PG. Well, what are we since Tinsley returned? We're not mediocre, that's for sure. We're in the cellar. I guess we can blame that on Carlisle and cross our fingers that we're right, but I just don't like a player showing the disdain that Tinsley does. Lack of effort and poor attitude is a sin on the basketball court. That dims Tinsley's light considerably no matter what his excuse.

-BBall

Arcadian
04-07-2006, 02:47 PM
I completely and uttered disagree with getting rid of Tins because he is a bad person. I don't live in Indy so I don't hang out with him every other weekend like Bball must to get such a definative read on his character. So maybe Bball through his may interactions knows something I don't.

If you want to get rid of Tinsley because he injury prone, fine.

If you want to get rid of Tinsley because it's him or Rick, I disagree but I understand your point of view.

If you want to get rid of Tinsley because you feel Saras is the future of the NBA, I think you're crazy or Lithuanian but I am glad you shared your point of view.

But can we please stop with the character attacks of someone most of us have never met? It drove me crazy with Bender. I don't even like it for SJax who I want gone.

MagicRat
04-07-2006, 02:56 PM
I completely and uttered disagree with getting rid of Tins because he is a bad person. I don't live in Indy so I don't hang out with him every other weekend like Bball must to get such a definative read on his character. So maybe Bball through his may interactions knows something I don't.

If you want to get rid of Tinsley because he injury prone, fine.

If you want to get rid of Tinsley because it's him or Rick, I disagree but I understand your point of view.

If you want to get rid of Tinsley because you feel Saras is the future of the NBA, I think you're crazy or Lithuanian but I am glad you shared your point of view.

But can we please stop with the character attacks of someone most of us have never met? It drove me crazy with Bender. I don't even like it for SJax who I want gone.

:buddies:

ChicagoJ
04-07-2006, 02:59 PM
If Tinsley gets his foot stepped on and hurts his ligaments.

If he tears a muscle in his arm.

Those are INJURIES - nothing you can do about them. He has had way too many of these for my taste, but you've got to figure the law of averages is now on his side.

I'm saying, in a less-toxic environment, he might have fewer migraines, post-shootaround achilles injuries, etc. Fewer allegations of x, y, and z. Fewer (read: zero) missed games of "questionable origin." After all, that's a new phenomenen with Tinsley.

Now, it may take a change in scenery to accomplish that. Or perhaps just a different voice from the bench. And it would be a shame to unload him if the latter were true.

If management deems him untenable, and trades him, I won't shed a tear. But I'd expect his new team/ coach to get a guy that figures out how to be healthy and motivated, and we'll see him again as a top-ten PG in the NBA.

If anything, Tinsley's Pacer experience has been poisoned by Ron and Rick. I do feel bad for the guy.

Let's be frank. Many of you guys who denied all this crap about Artest seem to be overcompensating now in your treatment of Tinsley. Its a witch hunt.

The revisionists would have us believe he's been skipping random games throughout his career. Utterly untrue.

Lord Helmet
04-07-2006, 03:10 PM
If Tinsley gets his foot stepped on and hurts his ligaments.

If he tears a muscle in his arm.

Those are INJURIES - nothing you can do about them. He has had way too many of these for my taste, but you've got to figure the law of averages is now on his side.

I'm saying, in a less-toxic environment, he might have fewer migraines, post-shootaround achilles injuries, etc. Fewer allegations of x, y, and z. Fewer (read: zero) missed games of "questionable origin." After all, that's a new phenomenen with Tinsley.

Now, it may take a change in scenery to accomplish that. Or perhaps just a different voice from the bench. And it would be a shame to unload him if the latter were true.

If management deems him untenable, and trades him, I won't shed a tear. But I'd expect his new team/ coach to get a guy that figures out how to be healthy and motivated, and we'll see him again as a top-ten PG in the NBA.

If anything, Tinsley's Pacer experience has been poisoned by Ron and Rick. I do feel bad for the guy.

Let's be frank. Many of you guys who denied all this crap about Artest seem to be overcompensating now in your treatment of Tinsley. Its a witch hunt.

The revisionists would have us believe he's been skipping random games throughout his career. Utterly untrue.
Yeah, right. We all thought the law of averages was on the entire team's side. Look what happened. :suicide:

Bball
04-07-2006, 04:24 PM
But can we please stop with the character attacks of someone most of us have never met? It drove me crazy with Bender.

There were very few character attacks directed at Bender that I saw. My problem, and I dare say most anyone else who had a problem with the Bender situation, was based on the situation... not the person. It was painfully clear to some that Bender was a bust (he was never going to live up to expecatations). Then it was more painfully clear that even if he could manage to play there really wasn't a natural place for him on the team. And then finally, he was costing the Pacers way too much money and thought when it was clear the trade and draft hadn't panned out and was a festering boil that management only compounded.

Tinsley... yeah... sure... I don't like his character. Or more importantly... lack thereof.

-Bball

D-BONE
04-07-2006, 05:48 PM
If management deems him untenable, and trades him, I won't shed a tear. But I'd expect his new team/ coach to get a guy that figures out how to be healthy and motivated, and we'll see him again as a top-ten PG in the NBA.


I know we've been down this road before, but I'm looking over his career stats and wondering how even beyond this year JT can be considered a top ten PG? Maybe for the 40 games he played last year and averaged a career high in points? But wouldn't durability be a key criteria?

His assist number and games played numbers have actually gone down steadily throughout. Other than being a good steals guy, he is not particularly adept on defense and owns carrer shooting percentages of 40 FG, 30 3PT, and 70 FT.

His PTS, STLS, ASSTS, and RBD #s all drop in his playoff avgs and his shooting pctgs stay the same. In his defense, he does maintain a solid ASST/TO ratio throughout.

I just don't see it. His career #s and difficulty staying healthy are actually fairly comparable to Brevin Knight's, who you pooh-pooh. However, in the last two years, the traditionally fragile BK, actually has played in significantly more games (over 60 each time) the JT with notably higher PPG, APG, and STLS.

The fact that you pooh-pooh him in regards to JT is actually an insult to Knight when they are in fact much closer in performance and durability than apart and BK the last two years is clearly better. Neither has done anything of significance in the playoffs. Just trying to provide some objectivity here.

Peck
04-07-2006, 05:49 PM
If Tinsley gets his foot stepped on and hurts his ligaments.

If he tears a muscle in his arm.

Those are INJURIES - nothing you can do about them. He has had way too many of these for my taste, but you've got to figure the law of averages is now on his side.

I'm saying, in a less-toxic environment, he might have fewer migraines, post-shootaround achilles injuries, etc. Fewer allegations of x, y, and z. Fewer (read: zero) missed games of "questionable origin." After all, that's a new phenomenen with Tinsley.

Now, it may take a change in scenery to accomplish that. Or perhaps just a different voice from the bench. And it would be a shame to unload him if the latter were true.

If management deems him untenable, and trades him, I won't shed a tear. But I'd expect his new team/ coach to get a guy that figures out how to be healthy and motivated, and we'll see him again as a top-ten PG in the NBA.

If anything, Tinsley's Pacer experience has been poisoned by Ron and Rick. I do feel bad for the guy.

Let's be frank. Many of you guys who denied all this crap about Artest seem to be overcompensating now in your treatment of Tinsley. Its a witch hunt.
The revisionists would have us believe he's been skipping random games throughout his career. Utterly untrue.


Um, then how do you explain me?

I think if you will recall there was you against Ron & then right soon thereafter it was me.

Also, until about mid-way through last season I liked Jamaal. Hell, right after the brawl I called him the best point guard in the NBA.

I changed after last season because frankly I was just fed up with the amount of games he missed. Way to many times of being in & out of the lineup. You could say it was or wasn't his fault, I just didn't care anymore.

However this season it's a little differant, not only has he been injured but there clearly has been a disconnect between him & Carlisle.

I'm certain that Rick has a lot to do with this, hell he may even be more than 50% to blame, but Jamaal has to take some responsibiltiy for this as well. Take that into consideration with his frequent illness/injurys & some of the pure stupid things he does on the floor (no matter who the coach is) & I think if I had to pick one or the other I would choose Rick.

However, I want both of them gone.

MagicRat
04-07-2006, 07:40 PM
Um, then how do you explain me?

http://home.comcast.net/%7Emagic_rat/badjoefan.jpg

ChicagoJ
04-08-2006, 10:31 AM
I'll give Jamaal all the blame in the world. But its still a player's game.

I'm 100% certain Rick must go.

There's a small percentage that Jamaal's game can be rehabbed by just a coaching change.

Unless you can tell me how we're going to get a better PG than Jamaal, it is worth the risk.

And if it fails, trade him before the deadline next February.

I'm not saying the solution IS Jamaal, but just unloading him is not the answer.

Shade
04-08-2006, 10:33 AM
I'm really on the fence with Tins. It's very obvious that he's not really injured right now (unless his entire body is a chronic injury), so he might be salvagable with a new coach.

Btw, what was the official diagnosis for the Knicks game?

ChicagoJ
04-08-2006, 10:37 AM
I know we've been down this road before, but I'm looking over his career stats and wondering how even beyond this year JT can be considered a top ten PG? Maybe for the 40 games he played last year and averaged a career high in points? But wouldn't durability be a key criteria?

His assist number and games played numbers have actually gone down steadily throughout. Other than being a good steals guy, he is not particularly adept on defense and owns carrer shooting percentages of 40 FG, 30 3PT, and 70 FT.

His PTS, STLS, ASSTS, and RBD #s all drop in his playoff avgs and his shooting pctgs stay the same. In his defense, he does maintain a solid ASST/TO ratio throughout.

I just don't see it. His career #s and difficulty staying healthy are actually fairly comparable to Brevin Knight's, who you pooh-pooh. However, in the last two years, the traditionally fragile BK, actually has played in significantly more games (over 60 each time) the JT with notably higher PPG, APG, and STLS.

Stats? I don't look at stats for a PG. I look at whether they can run the team. I especially look at whether or not the team is more effecient with them than without. I sure don't see that with Brevin Knight. And prior to the past month (when we aren't really sure if Tinsley was 100% healthy when he returned to the court), there was absolutely no debate that the team always played better with Tinsley than any of our other PGs on our roster since Mark Jackson.

We've got no other player that can actually run the offense like Tinsley.


The fact that you pooh-pooh him in regards to JT is actually an insult to Knight when they are in fact much closer in performance and durability than apart and BK the last two years is clearly better. Neither has done anything of significance in the playoffs. Just trying to provide some objectivity here.

Maybe Brevin Knight has developed the ability to lead a team in the past twelve months - I haven't watched him very much but the Brevin Knight I remember for most of his career couldn't even hold AJ's jockstrap at running a team, and that's, of course, not saying much.

I'd keep AJ before turning the team over to him.

ChicagoJ
04-08-2006, 10:40 AM
I'm really on the fence with Tins. It's very obvious that he's not really injured right now (unless his entire body is a chronic injury), so he might be salvagable with a new coach.

Btw, what was the official diagnosis for the Knicks game?

If you're asking me, I've got to go downstairs in a few minutes and watch it (I'm purposefully not commenting on something I haven't seen yet so don't tell me if we won or lost).

We had a Dad/ daughter lock-in at the Shedd Aquarium last night so I'm running behind (as usual).

D-BONE
04-08-2006, 11:46 AM
Stats? I don't look at stats for a PG. I look at whether they can run the team. I especially look at whether or not the team is more effecient with them than without. I sure don't see that with Brevin Knight. And prior to the past month (when we aren't really sure if Tinsley was 100% healthy when he returned to the court), there was absolutely no debate that the team always played better with Tinsley than any of our other PGs on our roster since Mark Jackson.

We've got no other player that can actually run the offense like Tinsley.

Maybe Brevin Knight has developed the ability to lead a team in the past twelve months - I haven't watched him very much but the Brevin Knight I remember for most of his career couldn't even hold AJ's jockstrap at running a team, and that's, of course, not saying much.

I'd keep AJ before turning the team over to him.

While we may not have anybody currently on the team more adept at running the offense, I don't see that some of the names mentioned (James, West, Miller, Banks etc) could be any worse then any of our options. I do agree that many of the other PGs mentioned may not be that easy to come by.

As far as ability to lead a team, how is it that Tins is so well-established here beyond some of the non-Pacer PGs suggested? I go back to consistency. To really make a claim about successfully leading a team, one has to do it over a significant span. Half a season or much less in a fragmented trajectory does not prove team-leading capability.

I hope if JT is on the team next year that he finally fully and consistently develops into the player characterized by the positives you see in him. I also think the talent is there. Yes there is potential but it's always about potential with JT and not frequently enough about performance.

I'm not convinced the rest of the package will ever be realized to the extent where he can be heavily relied upon.

ChicagoJ
04-08-2006, 11:57 AM
I'm not convinced the rest of the package will ever be realized to the extent where he can be heavily relied upon.

I agree. But I'd hate to make that conclusion based on the Rick Carlisle era.

If next season is more of the same; trade him.

If you can get a PG that's as good as he is (when healthy); trade him.

Don't just trade him for the sake of trading him. And don't trade him just because Rick Carlisle has lost the team (including, and perhaps especially, him.) That's Rick's fault. Jamaal can share some blame, of course. But I keep saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

He's not a dime-per-dozen swingman or power forward that is easily replaced in a lineup. He's a PG.

hoopsforlife
04-08-2006, 12:30 PM
Unless you can tell me how we're going to get a better PG than Jamaal, it is worth the risk.

25 cents in a gum machine would be better right now. :)

ChicagoJ
04-08-2006, 12:41 PM
True, but that's so short-sighted I can't stand it.

This team was doomed from the begining, since it had the real Mr. Cancer on it.

His poison has spread. That's obvious. And I'm not justifyig it. But goodness gracious, as much as I'd like them to get fifteen new players and a new coaching staff, that ain't gonna happen. And PG is a tough position to replace.

Maybe TPTB and Tinsley have decided a change in address is necessary. But I'd hate to discover that all Tinsley needed to become Tinsley again was a coaching change.

Our problem isn't "skill" at the PG position, its consistency. I'd rather take our skilled guy and figure out how to make him consistent than take a less-skilled guy and try to make him competent.

It hasn't worked for AJ, yet.

hoopsforlife
04-08-2006, 01:08 PM
AJ has played about as well as anybody on this team this year. He has shown up for the games, not complained much and has competed as well as he is able. I didn't like AJ's game at the beginning of the year but as the season progressed he has shown he is a true pro. His level of skill is not high enough to be an elite player but I really have no problem with how he has handled himself in this situation.

I don't like to use the term cancer because it has a very bad connotation. Cancer all too often results in the demise of the afflicted. That would denote the end of the Pacers. If Ron was a "cancer", then I think it was malignant because there is still plenty they didn't get. It has entered the healthy cells on this team and will ulitmately ruin them too. If it hasn't already.

The only answer is to treat them all this summer.

I personally do not believe Ron was THE problem on this team. I think he was honest to a fault and as such would speak his mind the only way he knew how. Up front and center. I think Ron (speaking of the last episode only) only put into words what the others were thinking. It probably surprised him when he came out and said he didn't like playing for Carlisle because it was boring, etc, and none of the other players, except for Jax, backed him up. Then JO saw his chance to get rid of Ron once and for all and came out with his "its him or me" statements.

I said at the time that Ron was the Heart and Soul of this team and we were headed to .500 without him. It worse than even I thought. I would have called JO's bluff and traded him instead.

Its in the past now so it doesn't matter anymore. Kings are rising and Pacers are falling. Oh well.

This summer has got to be the Summer of Change or the Pacers, as we have known them for the last 10 years, are history. :(

Los Angeles
04-08-2006, 01:28 PM
True, but that's so short-sighted I can't stand it.

This team was doomed from the begining, since it had the real Mr. Cancer on it.

His poison has spread. That's obvious. And I'm not justifyig it. But goodness gracious, as much as I'd like them to get fifteen new players and a new coaching staff, that ain't gonna happen. And PG is a tough position to replace.

Maybe TPTB and Tinsley have decided a change in address is necessary. But I'd hate to discover that all Tinsley needed to become Tinsley again was a coaching change.

Our problem isn't "skill" at the PG position, its consistency. I'd rather take our skilled guy and figure out how to make him consistent than take a less-skilled guy and try to make him competent.

It hasn't worked for AJ, yet.
Do you really think anyone can "make" Tinsley consistent?

ChicagoJ
04-08-2006, 01:35 PM
Yes.

Jamaal Tinsley can.

I don't care as much about the ligament injury last season and the bicep injury this season. Those were not preventable.

I'd like to see what he can do if he's properly motivated.

I'd give him until next season's trade deadline to get his act together; other guys can go away ASAP.

Los Angeles
04-08-2006, 01:43 PM
Fair enough.

Thanks for the response. I don't agree with you, but I'll leave it be with other posts I've made on the subject.

I just don't see any point in waiting, but I also recognize and acknowledge your point about giving him away for essentially nothing. After doing some thinking, I'm convinced that we can land a FA point guard that can produce. Both Speedy and Sam are available. If we can land one of them, I don't see any point in putting the hopes of the team in yet another "if" project.

Bball
04-08-2006, 02:10 PM
I'll give Jamaal all the blame in the world. But its still a player's game.

I'm 100% certain Rick must go.

There's a small percentage that Jamaal's game can be rehabbed by just a coaching change.

Unless you can tell me how we're going to get a better PG than Jamaal, it is worth the risk.

And if it fails, trade him before the deadline next February.

I'm not saying the solution IS Jamaal, but just unloading him is not the answer.


I have some problems with your line of thinking.

For one thing, while Tinsley might not like Carlisle's offense I can't see that Carlisle has 'jerked' him around (except maybe for the first couple of months of Rick's arrival here). It seems he's bent over backwards to make room for Tinsley in the starting lineup or say good things about him. So for Tinsley to go overboard copping an attitude is a bit much. Especially wearing that attitude on his sleeve and bringing it to the court.

Of course none of us knows what goes on behind closed doors at Pacerland and Mike Wells might've been muzzled because he seems to have fallen silent at a time where you'd think news would abound (either confirming rumors or pointing out where they are wrong... or what players are with the program and what ones aren't).

I any case, would it hurt Tinsley to be a man about things? To be professional?

So that is one thing... the other thing is where you say to give him a coaching change and see how he reacts before the trade deadline. I wish the Pacers could do that but history says they can't. As long as the playoffs appear a possibility we won't make a midseason trade. Even if everyone and their brother can see a brewing storm, if the playoffs look possible, Walsh will not be motivated into making a trade.

I suppose if you have every confidence in Tinsley and how he'd react to a coaching change then you'd be all for that and not consider it much of a gamble. I'm just not that certain Tinsley is 'reachable'.

Didn't he come here with question marks about his 'coachability' in the draft scouting reports (or am I confusing him with someone else?)?

And why did Isiah get his fill of Tinsley? Does that not give anyone pause?

And why was JO convinced to demand that Tinsley be traded?

Does that stuff not start adding up to problems with Tinsley that pre-date Carlisle?

--
And again, we can trade/cut Tinsley alone and it wouldn't fix this team... He might be one of the problems but we have several problems which may or may not be connected and certainly have roots.

-Bball

Arcadian
04-08-2006, 02:53 PM
You've brought up that last seasons under Isiah before. Again Tins' mother had just die and he was playing as badly as any point guard I've seen play in this league. So I think it is fair to say there were circumstances. There is also the fact that Isiah is loyal only to himself. If he can find a scapegoat he'll ride it.

If we want to question past Could we ask have multiple players been disatisfied with Rick's system? Wasn't that one of the major reason Al left?
Didn't the Detriot's players not shed a tear when he left? Which Piston didn't improve that next season? Wasn't Donnie and the remaining players so unimpressed with Rick that dispite Larry's recommendation for Rick, Isiah still got hired?

I like Rick and up to a couple weeks ago I wanted him back. I was one of the last ones. But at this point I think working with the circumstances and poorly put together roster he has done more harm than good this season inregards to getting the most out of our players. For a player as talented as Tins I would like to see if a new coach (and other roster changes) could reform him.

Bball
04-08-2006, 03:06 PM
You've brought up that last seasons under Isiah before. Again Tins' mother had just die and he was playing as badly as any point guard I've seen play in this league. So I think it is fair to say there were circumstances. There is also the fact that Isiah is loyal only to himself. If he can find a scapegoat he'll ride it.

If we want to question past Could we ask have multiple players been disatisfied with Rick's system? Wasn't that one of the major reason Al left?
Didn't the Detriot's players not shed a tear when he left? Which Piston didn't improve that next season? Wasn't Donnie and the remaining players so unimpressed with Rick that dispite Larry's recommendation for Rick, Isiah still got hired?

I like Rick and up to a couple weeks ago I wanted him back. I was one of the last ones. But at this point I think working with the circumstances and poorly put together roster he has done more harm than good this season inregards to getting the most out of our players. For a player as talented as Tins I would like to see if a new coach (and other roster changes) could reform him.


I hate giving Isiah credit for anything at this point ;) ...but maybe he was onto something by asking JO to demand Artest, Tinsley, and Mercer be traded.

But alas... maybe he was just looking for a scapegoat (but wouldn't he only need one?) or else maybe he was looking to remove anyone that would challenge JO's role and Isiah's relationship with him.

I will repeat myself on something...
Tinsley is not (IMHO) the only issue this team faces and Carlisle is far from blameless or safe in his position. I've said for a while now that we are seeing Carlisle's last season as Pacer coach. At least for this go around. And I've officially declared I want him gone. So don't get it confused that I am making Tinsley the scapegoat for all of our problems and excusing Carlisle. They could both go and it still might not fix anything. We're seriously flawed. We have a leadership vacuum and it goes right to the top.

I'm not sure any ONE move would fix anything....

-Bball

Arcadian
04-08-2006, 03:24 PM
Let's try it from this angle. He is the question I want to ask. After seeing Saras whine to the papers about the offense and how he is used, seeing him shout at teammates for missing assignment as he misses his own why are you ready to stick with him?

ChicagoJ
04-08-2006, 11:59 PM
I've never put much stock into who Isiah did and did not get along with.

Jalen hand-picked him for the job, and that didn't work out too well for Jalen.

Now to the main part of your premise,


I have some problems with your line of thinking.

For one thing, while Tinsley might not like Carlisle's offense I can't see that Carlisle has 'jerked' him around (except maybe for the first couple of months of Rick's arrival here). It seems he's bent over backwards to make room for Tinsley in the starting lineup or say good things about him. So for Tinsley to go overboard copping an attitude is a bit much. Especially wearing that attitude on his sleeve and bringing it to the court.

Of course none of us knows what goes on behind closed doors at Pacerland and Mike Wells might've been muzzled because he seems to have fallen silent at a time where you'd think news would abound (either confirming rumors or pointing out where they are wrong... or what players are with the program and what ones aren't).

I any case, would it hurt Tinsley to be a man about things? To be professional?

Tinsley's been professional throughout his career. Now I don't know what's going on this week. For all we really know, he has been told to go home. If so, then every poster questioning Tinsley's work ethic and injury status should apologize. He's done as a Pacer, of course, but not for the reason everyone is citing.

Moving on... did you play PG?

I did. And even I was allowed to call my plays at least some of the time in HS. Or in a flex offense, my first move (dribble penetration or pass) would determine which play we'd run.

Tinsley's a professional PG who spends his entire time looking to the bench for play calls.

I can't think of a scenario in which that is not utterly insulting to your PG to not let allow them to do their job - run the offense.


So that is one thing... the other thing is where you say to give him a coaching change and see how he reacts before the trade deadline. I wish the Pacers could do that but history says they can't. As long as the playoffs appear a possibility we won't make a midseason trade. Even if everyone and their brother can see a brewing storm, if the playoffs look possible, Walsh will not be motivated into making a trade.

I suppose if you have every confidence in Tinsley and how he'd react to a coaching change then you'd be all for that and not consider it much of a gamble. I'm just not that certain Tinsley is 'reachable'.

Didn't he come here with question marks about his 'coachability' in the draft scouting reports (or am I confusing him with someone else?)?

And why did Isiah get his fill of Tinsley? Does that not give anyone pause?

And why was JO convinced to demand that Tinsley be traded?

Does that stuff not start adding up to problems with Tinsley that pre-date Carlisle?

--
And again, we can trade/cut Tinsley alone and it wouldn't fix this team... He might be one of the problems but we have several problems which may or may not be connected and certainly have roots.

-Bball


The problems all have the same roots. Somewhere (maybe this thread), it was mentioned again.

Walsh and Bird allowed a nasty, malignant tumor (Artest) to fester inside this team for way too long. And except for one operation on the original infected organ, they've only tried to treat that cancer with aroma therapy or something like that.

At the very least, they need some chemotherapy, and a few more operations.

The problem with chemotherapy is that it sometimes makes the body feel worse than the disease, until you're really on the road to recovery.

Rick is so concerned with "winning now" that he won't take a long-term approach to making this team better.

If we lose, or at the very least, if we are not competitive tomorrow we should fire Rick immediately.

Somebody has to send the signal that what we've been seeing for the past two weeks can not be tolerated. Period.

SoupIsGood
04-09-2006, 01:00 AM
Rick is so concerned with "winning now" that he won't take a long-term approach to making this team better.

If we lose, or at the very least, if we are not competitive tomorrow we should fire Rick immediately.



:confused::confused::confused:


I need to go to sleep :headache:

Bball
04-09-2006, 05:15 AM
I've never put much stock into who Isiah did and did not get along with.


Tinsley's been professional throughout his career.

See, I'm just not sure that's the case. Or we have varying tolerance levels for what I'd call 'being professional'.





Now I don't know what's going on this week. For all we really know, he has been told to go home. If so, then every poster questioning Tinsley's work ethic and injury status should apologize. He's done as a Pacer, of course, but not for the reason everyone is citing.

If he's been told to go home I'd have to believe it is for exactly the reasons those of us questioning Tinsley believe.


Moving on... did you play PG?

No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.




I did. And even I was allowed to call my plays at least some of the time in HS. Or in a flex offense, my first move (dribble penetration or pass) would determine which play we'd run.

Tinsley's a professional PG who spends his entire time looking to the bench for play calls.

I can't think of a scenario in which that is not utterly insulting to your PG to not let allow them to do their job - run the offense.

I pretty much agree here... I'm just not sure I like the way Tinsley's handled the situation.





The problems all have the same roots. Somewhere (maybe this thread), it was mentioned again.

Walsh and Bird allowed a nasty, malignant tumor (Artest) to fester inside this team for way too long. And except for one operation on the original infected organ, they've only tried to treat that cancer with aroma therapy or something like that.

While I can agree that Artest hasn't helped things, I don't know he's completely to blame either.

If we're needing a scapegoat then Carlisle fits the bill probably the best... unless you want to look higher at those who put this whole mess together and stuck with it this long.





Somebody has to send the signal that what we've been seeing for the past two weeks can not be tolerated. Period.

Wouldn't is be nice to see management make a bold move like that?

Why do I think we'll be seeing the the word "patience" before long in the Indy Star?

-BBall

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 09:47 PM
If we lose, or at the very least, if we are not competitive tomorrow we should fire Rick immediately.

Somebody has to send the signal that what we've been seeing for the past two weeks can not be tolerated. Period.


Since this is probably lost in the depths of PD (took me 30 minutes to find it and I knew I'd written it in the first place), I'm going to start a new thread...

Jermaniac
04-09-2006, 10:46 PM
I'm with Jay on everything he said. Let Jamaal play in a real offense, something our players would enjoy playing in. This BS Carlisle runs doesnt make basketball any fun for me and I watch it, imagine them going into a game and having to play like a bunch of robots.

I'm tired of seeing Tins sprint down the court and have to stop to see what play Rick is going to call.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 10:48 PM
I'm with Jay on everything he said.

Pretty sure that's never happened before.

:D

Jermaniac
04-09-2006, 10:52 PM
I'm gonna go outside to see if there are pigs flying

sweabs
04-09-2006, 10:56 PM
Since Jay wants my formal support - I'll also say I'm with him on this one.

There :D

SoupIsGood
04-09-2006, 10:58 PM
Well, I will say PD isn't boring anymore. It's been since the "Play David!!!!" debates that there's been something really interesting to discuss.

I really like to watch Tinsley play too, he's got great skills. Just no body and little brain.

brichard
04-09-2006, 11:07 PM
Arcadian,

I think we can all appreciate what Jamaal went through with his mother, but I don't think that was the only thing that contributed to that season. He also was on the KFC diet and not really caring for his body at the time. We also know Rookies inevitably hit that wall, but I'm sure his personal circumstances made that more difficult.

It is really interesting to me how people justify the play/actions of a particular player no matter what the circumstances. It is almost like watching people argue politics. You can use the same measure of criteria with two different candidates and the data is not applied evenly.

If people think Rick Carlisle is the only problem with Jamaal you are just kidding yourself. He is headstrong, stubborn, and has a chip on his shoulder. There are many coaches in the league that would butt heads with Mr. Tinsley.

And those of you who say we need to "run a style of offense the players love" should pay real close attention to Seattle. You can also take a look at Phoenix. Every player on the planet is going to prefer to run a double barrelled guns a' blazin offense. However, with rare exception is it effective in the playoffs. It is fun to watch, scores lots of points, and keeps the sneakers hot.

I agree with Rick when he said that you need to know how to play fast, medium, and slow. We don't seem to play any style particularly well, but with all the lineup changes we have had it isn't shocking. It's funny, did you know that Staubach never called his plays and Bradshaw did? I know Bradshaw got the best of him one on one, but my point is that they each won Superbowl rings.

I don't buy into this players league stuff either. I'm not saying it isn't true, but you show me the tail wagging the dog, and I'll show you a team that doesn't win championships. If the players are tuning out the coach just because he's a big meany and doesn't start them or doesn't play the style they want, then they are players with character flaws and I have no use for them. You go out on the court and give it your all if you have a competetive bone in your body.

ChicagoJ
04-09-2006, 11:09 PM
If people think Rick Carlisle is the only problem with Jamaal you are just kidding yourself. He is headstrong, stubborn, and has a chip on his shoulder. There are many coaches in the league that would butt heads with Mr. Tinsley.

True. I've said numerously that if these problems don't clear up next season, with a new coach, that Tinsley should be shipped out by the deadline.

I happen to think they are coach-specific.

But they may not be...

Arcadian
04-09-2006, 11:22 PM
Arcadian,

I think we can all appreciate what Jamaal went through with his mother, but I don't think that was the only thing that contributed to that season. He also was on the KFC diet and not really caring for his body at the time. We also know Rookies inevitably hit that wall, but I'm sure his personal circumstances made that more difficult.


I just apply those circumstances to that season. I think it is unfair to say what a horrible player he is based on that stretch.

At this point I really don't care what players stay. I do believe that Tins is talented enough to justify rolling the dice with another coach but I won't be heartbroken if he is traded either. (I will cry if we trade Tins and believe that we have another starting caliber pg on our roster already.)

brichard
04-09-2006, 11:38 PM
I just apply those circumstances to that season. I think it is unfair to say what a horrible player he is based on that stretch.

At this point I really don't care what players stay. I do believe that Tins is talented enough to justify rolling the dice with another coach but I won't be heartbroken if he is traded either. (I will cry if we trade Tins and believe that we have another starting caliber pg on our roster already.)

I just find it interesting that our PG situation is more precarious than our head coach. If you think it is tough finding a good PG in the league, it is way harder to find a great coach. Name all of the great coaches in the league. You have Phil Jackson, Larry Brown, Pat Riley..... and then there is a pretty big drop off after that.

Rick Carlisle has to be a top 10 coach in the league for what he has accomplished/persevered through in his brief time in the league. I can't believe that Jay likes Bo Hill of all people. If you want fun flying .500 ball... there is your man. And if you want the good coaches that will cozy up to Tinsley, you'll find even less.

They both should go at this point IMO, but a PG is not more important than your coach. And mark my words, Tinsley will always have these issues. Why? It is just part of his character, just like it is in Rasheed's character to whine with great flair to the refs. Coaches aren't responsible for character, the players are.

Ya' know... Lenny Wilkens is known as a players coach... :shudder:

EDIT One other thing, if you think Jamaal's trade value is low now, what do you think it will be if we roll the dice and he collides with the new coach. It will drift further into the toilet bowl than it is right now.

Arcadian
04-09-2006, 11:52 PM
I don't know what to say. I think players are more important than coaches. Coaches have much shorter tenures than players in todays NBA. If you can build a team around a coach. The NFL you can but not the NBA.

I don't think Rasheed is a good example for your arguement; he deserves more credit for getting Detriot a championship than Larry Brown.

Again, I can't say anything about Tins character I've never met the man.

brichard
04-10-2006, 12:04 AM
I don't know what to say. I think players are more important than coaches. Coaches have much shorter tenures than players in todays NBA. If you can build a team around a coach. The NFL you can but not the NBA.

I don't think Rasheed is a good example for your arguement; he deserves more credit for getting Detriot a championship than Larry Brown.

Again, I can't say anything about Tins character I've never met the man.

I wasn't using Rasheed as an example of who you can, can't win a championship with. I was just showing that no matter who his coach has been, Larry Brown, Flip Saunders, Dunleavy etc., he is always a whiner to the officials. He always has been and always will be.

If you want to see where players do screw the pooch, how about with Kobe? How much better is NJ wihout Byron Scott? Kidd pretty much wanted Scott gone, and now where are they? In Seattle they ran all over their last coach, he was popular, but their defense was so bad they were tipping in balls for the other team.

Nobody ever likes Larry Brown, but as far as turning a team around, he is without question the best coach in the league.

ChicagoJ
04-10-2006, 02:32 PM
Rick Carlisle has to be a top 10 coach in the league for what he has accomplished/persevered through in his brief time in the league. I can't believe that Jay likes Bo Hill of all people. If you want fun flying .500 ball... there is your man. And if you want the good coaches that will cozy up to Tinsley, you'll find even less.

Then explain the Spurs WCF appearance and their 60-win season under Bo Hill (with Chuck Person on the roster).

Bo maximized the early-1990s Pacers at 0.500. We thought they were on the cusp of something bigger but the players weren't good enough/ ready to get there.

By the Larry Brown took over, the makeup of the players had significantly changed. He didn't just take over Bo's team and make them contenders.

brichard
04-10-2006, 09:45 PM
Then explain the Spurs WCF appearance and their 60-win season under Bo Hill (with Chuck Person on the roster).

Bo maximized the early-1990s Pacers at 0.500. We thought they were on the cusp of something bigger but the players weren't good enough/ ready to get there.

By the Larry Brown took over, the makeup of the players had significantly changed. He didn't just take over Bo's team and make them contenders.

Bob Hill
Overall: 257 - 212
Playoffs: 17 - 20

Okay I was wrong... 55%.

Rick Carlisle
Overall: 161 - 85
Playoffs: 22 - 21

65%

Year Team Season Playoffs
2001 DET 50 - 32 4 - 6
2002 DET 50 - 32 8 - 9
2003 IND 61 - 21 10 - 6
2004 IND 44 - 38 6 - 7


If you are going to start arguing the merits of Larry Brown vs. Bob Hill, and I'm not saying you are, but if you do... I fear you are delusional. The man took the Clippers to the playoffs for crying out loud.

Bob Hill is an okay coach and if you want an okay team, bring him on. Bob Hill's SA team had some pretty significant talent. You say the players weren't ready to get there, and I say they didn't have the guy to get them there. Larry Brown knows how to teach players how to win. There is nobody who is even close to him in that department.

You can argue and convince me that he isn't a good long-term coach, but he is the master of the turn around.

Jermaniac
04-10-2006, 09:48 PM
Tinsley Tinsley Tinsley can’t you see
Sometimes your game just hypnotize me
And I just love your flashy ways
Guess that’s why the Pacers win when you are playing

My version of Biggie's - Hypnotize

Lithfan
04-11-2006, 04:33 AM
Tinsley Tinsley Tinsley can’t you see
Sometimes your game just hypnotize me
And I just love your flashy ways
Guess that’s why the Pacers win when you are playing

My version of Biggie's - Hypnotize

You see, you are for flashy ways,
The truth you dont see in this case.
You praise Jamaal like a god
Though he is definitely not.

He played not bad today, however
Sarunas could have been better.
Tins got 6 points and 7 dimes
Just like Sarunas had last night

For same production yesterday,
You bashed Saras all the way
You are unfair my young friend
It seems like hatred is your bread

ChicagoJ
04-11-2006, 10:25 AM
Tinsley plays = blowout win.

Maybe he wasn't sulking last weekend, maybe he wasn't "sent home." Maybe, since he had rushed back from his previous injury, he wasn't really in game shape and had a nagging achilles injury that was hampering his play.

This team, as currently assembled, needs Tinsley very badly.

Hicks
04-11-2006, 11:04 AM
Yeah, I'm sure last night had nothing to do with Austin Croshere, or Stephen Jackson having a hot shooting night. It's all about Tinsley's "aura" :rolleyes:

Unclebuck
04-11-2006, 11:30 AM
Yeah, I'm sure last night had nothing to do with Austin Croshere, or Stephen Jackson having a hot shooting night. It's all about Tinsley's "aura" :rolleyes:


Or that the Knicks are horrible and basically stopped playing in the second half

Bball
04-11-2006, 11:42 AM
Tinsley plays = blowout win.

Maybe he wasn't sulking last weekend, maybe he wasn't "sent home." Maybe, since he had rushed back from his previous injury, he wasn't really in game shape and had a nagging achilles injury that was hampering his play.

This team, as currently assembled, needs Tinsley very badly.

Rushed back?


-Bball

Los Angeles
04-11-2006, 11:52 AM
Or that the Knicks are horrible and basically stopped playing in the second half
Thank you.

Ragnar
04-11-2006, 12:59 PM
Or that the Knicks are horrible and basically stopped playing in the second half

Didnt they just beat us with AJ in the game a few days ago. Didnt they just have a great win after their win against us? Dont you think Larry is getting though to them? I thought you believed in good coaches.

Yes the Knicks are bad but without Jamaal we are worse.

beast23
04-11-2006, 01:25 PM
Overbearing. Calling all the plays. Lack of trust. Won't let them run.

From a PGs perspective, that is perpetually insulting.

If I spent three years working for a perpetually insulting boss, I'd have an attitude too.

:shrug:The above was the 26th post of this thread. And, I'm surprised that no one has followed up on it.

TRUST.

That is the biggest glaring weakness of this team. Kravitz mentioned it this morning in his column, and many of us have talked about it over the last 2-3 months.

You fault Carlisle for not having trust in Tinsley.

But, guess what. As a fan, apart from my perpetual harping about his poor defensive abilities, TRUST is the #1 problem I have with Tinsley.

And, of those of us that do have big problems with Tinsley, if everyone is totally honest, I'll bet that TRUST is a major problem that many of us have with him.

Folks can gripe about his health issues, but healthy or not, I simply do not trust Tinsley to make on-court decisions that are in the best interests of the team.

To me, Tinsley is like the stubborn child. At times, it's like he is rebelling against Rick. He gets it into his head that he wants to play outside the offense, and regardless of the consequences, that's the way he is going to orchestrate the team.

And, when he gets torched by the man he is guarding, he doesn't really rebel against anyone, he just simply says the hell with the team, I'm not gonna take this crap, I'll show him... I'll burn him right back.... blah, blah, blah. And quite frankly, because Tinsley is a poor defender, this behavior happens far too often.

You and others had problems with Artest breaking the offense. Basically, Artest had trust issues as well, and would break away from the offense, and force too many things. The thing was, when Artest did this, he was so damn strong that he was probably as successful when he did this just as often as he failed. So, the real problem that Artest was causing was harm to team chemistry.

On the other hand, Tinsley, when he rebels and goes outside the offense, typically harms three things. His assist-to-turnover ratio, the success of the teamown ATO ratio and team chemistry.

Now, I will freely admit that Tinsley has a lot more talent in a traditional PG sense than AJ. Yet, I find the following statistic extremely surprising. Career ATO ratio. Tinsley 2.41. AJ 2.57. What the hell? How the hell is that possible?

Tinsley is a much better distributor than AJ. Right? Jeez, even I would agree with that. Tinsley handles the ball much better than AJ... even AJ supporters would say that a defender is much more likely to strip the ball from AJ than from Tinsley... and Tinsley, you will never see him get an 8-second violation, not like AJ.

Yet there it is: 2.57 to 2.41. Not very significant over the course of a season. But, it's a little bigger difference over the course of a career.

I'm really not trying to get into an AJ-Tinsley debate. But, from what I see, AJ "knows himself better". He considers it to be his job to do the things that he is capable of doing, and to avoid the things that are outside his comfort zone.

Tinsley, on the other hand is exactly the type of personality that I loathe. A man with all the talent in the world, who oftentimes chooses to p!ss it away. He's not the quickest PG by a long shot, but his ability to simply handle the ball could easily be mentioned in the same sentence with that of Mark Jackson.

I believe that Tinsley has a personality that doesn't permit him to "play within himself". He far too often attempts the difficult pass, rather than completing the easy one. To the point where an inferior player posts a better statistic in the most important of all PG statistics (ATO ratio).

All of this is a damn shame. If Tinsley just played within himself, I don't doubt that his ATO ratio would be greater than 3.0. Year after year.

But, it comes down to only one thing.

He can't be trusted.

And if you can't trust your PG, let's face it. You're screwed.

It's time for a change. We have an exceptional backup PG. Now it's time for the Pacers to go out and get a starter.

Unclebuck
04-11-2006, 01:46 PM
Didnt they just beat us with AJ in the game a few days ago. Didnt they just have a great win after their win against us? Dont you think Larry is getting though to them? I thought you believed in good coaches.

Yes the Knicks are bad but without Jamaal we are worse.



All I know is the Knicks were decent in the first half last night, but horrible in the second. Last week the Knicks played a pretty good game against us. That means more than a teams record

able
04-11-2006, 01:53 PM
Or that the Knicks are horrible and basically stopped playing in the second half
Uh yeah, they stopped playing around the 3.51 mark in the 3rd quarter, which by a fluke of nature coincided with Jamaal Tinsley entering the game...... (Knicks up 61-62)


3 minutes and 50 seconds later the Pacers went from 2 down to 10 up never to look back again.

At the end of the game JT was "rewarded" with being pulled at the same time as the "main" starters, AJ was left to finish the game with 2 minutes to go.

JT not only dished, he defended much better then AJ had been doing till then, he shut down Nate Robinson and SF had no more role of significance after JT came in at the above time.

JO, who did not score in bunches, did also not take shots in bunches, but drew the offense and dished, worked, boxed out, blocked shots, moved the ball in short; all the little things people always say he doesn't do.

JO was a workhorse in this one, despite being in foul trouble, he made it possible for Jax and Peja to get "hot" and getting the ball in your sweet spot just a little bit earlier then from AJ, makes that shot so much easier.

Jax still saw chance to begin the game with 3 turnovers in the first 20 seconds odd, and started with another turnover in the 3rd not to mention his ill advised untimely shot at the end of the 3rd (14 secodns left on the ful lshot clock) But even that could not ruin the purring engine this team was with JT in.

Since86
04-11-2006, 02:20 PM
Uh yeah, they stopped playing around the 3.51 mark in the 3rd quarter, which by a fluke of nature coincided with Jamaal Tinsley entering the game...... (Knicks up 61-62)


3 minutes and 50 seconds later the Pacers went from 2 down to 10 up never to look back again.

At the end of the game JT was "rewarded" with being pulled at the same time as the "main" starters, AJ was left to finish the game with 2 minutes to go.

JT not only dished, he defended much better then AJ had been doing till then, he shut down Nate Robinson and SF had no more role of significance after JT came in at the above time.

JO, who did not score in bunches, did also not take shots in bunches, but drew the offense and dished, worked, boxed out, blocked shots, moved the ball in short; all the little things people always say he doesn't do.

JO was a workhorse in this one, despite being in foul trouble, he made it possible for Jax and Peja to get "hot" and getting the ball in your sweet spot just a little bit earlier then from AJ, makes that shot so much easier.

Jax still saw chance to begin the game with 3 turnovers in the first 20 seconds odd, and started with another turnover in the 3rd not to mention his ill advised untimely shot at the end of the 3rd (14 secodns left on the ful lshot clock) But even that could not ruin the purring engine this team was with JT in.

4:20 61-61 Jamaal Tinsley enters the game for Anthony Johnson
4:20 Ime Udoka enters the game for Qyntel Woods 61-61
4:20 Steve Francis makes free throw 2 of 2 62-61
4:11 62-61 Jermaine O'Neal misses 11-foot jumper
4:09 Steve Francis defensive rebound 62-61
3:53 Jamal Crawford lost ball (Stephen Jackson steals) 62-61
3:32 62-63 Stephen Jackson makes 18-foot jumper (Jamaal Tinsley assists)
3:08 Jermaine O'Neal blocks Eddy Curry's 10-foot jumper 62-63
3:05 62-63 Jermaine O'Neal defensive rebound
3:01 Ime Udoka personal foul (Stephen Jackson draws the foul) 62-63
3:01 Nate Robinson enters the game for Steve Francis 62-63
2:50 62-66 Peja Stojakovic makes 26-foot three point jumper (Jermaine O'Neal assists)
2:34 Maurice Taylor misses jumper 62-66
2:31 New York defensive rebound 62-66
2:31 New York full timeout
2:31 Jackie Butler enters the game for Eddy Curry 62-66
2:31 62-66 Austin Croshere enters the game for Jermaine O'Neal
2:14 62-68 Peja Stojakovic makes 22-foot jumper (Jeff Foster assists)
1:55 Nate Robinson misses 12-foot jumper 62-68
1:54 62-68 Jeff Foster defensive rebound
1:37 62-68 Peja Stojakovic misses 6-foot jumper
1:36 62-68 Jeff Foster offensive rebound
1:35 62-70 Jeff Foster makes layup
1:15 Jackie Butler turnover 62-70
0:57 62-70 Stephen Jackson misses layup
0:55 62-70 Austin Croshere offensive rebound
0:53 62-72 Austin Croshere makes 19-foot jumper
0:40 Nate Robinson offensive foul (Austin Croshere draws the foul) 62-72
0:40 Nate Robinson turnover 62-72
0:21 62-72 Jamaal Tinsley misses 9-foot jumper
0:20 62-72 Jamaal Tinsley offensive rebound
0:16 62-72 Stephen Jackson misses 26-foot three point jumper
0:15 Jackie Butler defensive rebound 62-72
0:05 Stephen Jackson blocks Jamal Crawford's jumper 62-72
0:03 62-72 Stephen Jackson defensive rebound
0:00 62-72 Peja Stojakovic misses 25-foot three point jumper
0:00 62-72 Indiana offensive rebound


So in 4 mins and 20 secs the game went from a tie to a Pacer ten point lead with Tinsley going 0-1 with 1 reb. and 1 assist, yet Tinsley is the reason the lead ballooned?


:confused: I see Austin's name on there for way more positives than Tinsley.

Since86
04-11-2006, 02:28 PM
To be fair, I'll the rest of his stats for the 4th qtr.

1-3 fgs
1 reb.
2 assists
2 steals
2 fouls

Hicks
04-11-2006, 02:57 PM
I love how when we win, it's Tinsley (if he's playing), but when we lose (and he's playing), it's "Rick isn't using him right."

ChicagoJ
04-11-2006, 03:06 PM
The above was the 26th post of this thread. And, I'm surprised that no one has followed up on it.

TRUST.

That is the biggest glaring weakness of this team. Kravitz mentioned it this morning in his column, and many of us have talked about it over the last 2-3 months.

You fault Carlisle for not having trust in Tinsley.

But, guess what. As a fan, apart from my perpetual harping about his poor defensive abilities, TRUST is the #1 problem I have with Tinsley.

And, of those of us that do have big problems with Tinsley, if everyone is totally honest, I'll bet that TRUST is a major problem that many of us have with him.

Folks can gripe about his health issues, but healthy or not, I simply do not trust Tinsley to make on-court decisions that are in the best interests of the team.

To me, Tinsley is like the stubborn child. At times, it's like he is rebelling against Rick. He gets it into his head that he wants to play outside the offense, and regardless of the consequences, that's the way he is going to orchestrate the team.

And, when he gets torched by the man he is guarding, he doesn't really rebel against anyone, he just simply says the hell with the team, I'm not gonna take this crap, I'll show him... I'll burn him right back.... blah, blah, blah. And quite frankly, because Tinsley is a poor defender, this behavior happens far too often.

You and others had problems with Artest breaking the offense. Basically, Artest had trust issues as well, and would break away from the offense, and force too many things. The thing was, when Artest did this, he was so damn strong that he was probably as successful when he did this just as often as he failed. So, the real problem that Artest was causing was harm to team chemistry.

On the other hand, Tinsley, when he rebels and goes outside the offense, typically harms three things. His assist-to-turnover ratio, the success of the teamown ATO ratio and team chemistry.

Now, I will freely admit that Tinsley has a lot more talent in a traditional PG sense than AJ. Yet, I find the following statistic extremely surprising. Career ATO ratio. Tinsley 2.41. AJ 2.57. What the hell? How the hell is that possible?

Tinsley is a much better distributor than AJ. Right? Jeez, even I would agree with that. Tinsley handles the ball much better than AJ... even AJ supporters would say that a defender is much more likely to strip the ball from AJ than from Tinsley... and Tinsley, you will never see him get an 8-second violation, not like AJ.

Yet there it is: 2.57 to 2.41. Not very significant over the course of a season. But, it's a little bigger difference over the course of a career.

I'm really not trying to get into an AJ-Tinsley debate. But, from what I see, AJ "knows himself better". He considers it to be his job to do the things that he is capable of doing, and to avoid the things that are outside his comfort zone.

Tinsley, on the other hand is exactly the type of personality that I loathe. A man with all the talent in the world, who oftentimes chooses to p!ss it away. He's not the quickest PG by a long shot, but his ability to simply handle the ball could easily be mentioned in the same sentence with that of Mark Jackson.

I believe that Tinsley has a personality that doesn't permit him to "play within himself". He far too often attempts the difficult pass, rather than completing the easy one. To the point where an inferior player posts a better statistic in the most important of all PG statistics (ATO ratio).

All of this is a damn shame. If Tinsley just played within himself, I don't doubt that his ATO ratio would be greater than 3.0. Year after year.

But, it comes down to only one thing.

He can't be trusted.

And if you can't trust your PG, let's face it. You're screwed.

It's time for a change. We have an exceptional backup PG. Now it's time for the Pacers to go out and get a starter.


If that's the conclusion, I'm okay with that. That's the right criteria, I agree.

My problem is that we don't know what Jamaal can do if he's given some leeway - maybe he'll earn the trust and maybe he won't.

But as you said, if that's the decision then the Pacers need to find a starting PG to replace Jamaal, because he's the only starting-caliber PG on this team. And we are much worse without him.

Ragnar
04-11-2006, 03:22 PM
I love how when we win, it's Tinsley (if he's playing), but when we lose (and he's playing), it's "Rick isn't using him right."

Hicks the point I have made over and over again. The vast majority of time Tinsley is allowed to FINISH the game (you know be in for the majority of the 4th quarter at least untill the lead is insurmountable) we WIN. Not every time of course but the vast majority of time.

Take the two recent games againt Chicago. The one where Jamaal was in for the majority of the 4th we win. The one AJ is in for the majority of the 4th we lose. Take the Knicks same thing.

Since86 I am guessing you did not see the end of the 3rd quarter so here it is. Please watch it for yourself and you will see the obvious.

http://d58.yousendit.com/F/33D9IK7GWP0K703W176SGKZ2QT/just%20a%20coincidence%20I%20am%20sure.asf

DeS
04-11-2006, 05:58 PM
Hicks the point I have made over and over again. The vast majority of time Tinsley is allowed to FINISH the game (you know be in for the majority of the 4th quarter at least untill the lead is insurmountable) we WIN. Not every time of course but the vast majority of time.
Ragnar - i assume, you know very well, that this isn't true. I would pray to play Jamaal the last play over AJ as he (AJ) proved - he can't be trust in the end. But this isn't even funny - it's starting to get annoying.

naptownmenace
04-12-2006, 09:37 AM
I've mentioned this earlier and I'll say it again, "At what point do we give Jamaal the credit/blame for his play?"

For the record I reached that point 2 playoff seasons ago.

Since86
04-12-2006, 10:24 AM
Since86 I am guessing you did not see the end of the 3rd quarter so here it is. Please watch it for yourself and you will see the obvious.

http://d58.yousendit.com/F/33D9IK7GWP0K703W176SGKZ2QT/just%20a%20coincidence%20I%20am%20sure.asf


Just got done watching it, and I saw nothing special out of Tinsley.

He had one steal right when he came in, which was a heads up play, and he had one assist shortly thereafter to Jax.

I really can't give him a whole lot of credit on the assist, because Mo Taylor had switched out on him, and Jamaal made a very simple move by not using a screen, which Taylor already was feeling with his right hand, and completely stopped playing defense. His defense was bad, stratch that, AWFUL on that play.

I know you're going to come back with "You saw what you wanted to see," so please go back and watch it and tell me where he did something spectacular.

The Knicks looked absolutely horrible during that whole stretch. They couldn't stop pentration, and had no helpside defense at all. On offense they stood around while one guy dribbled half-***.

The Knicks just simply gave up.