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indyblue47
04-06-2006, 08:35 AM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060406/COLUMNISTS01/604060481/1004/SPORTS


bob kravitz
Plenty of blame to go around
Related articles
Pacers survive late-game woes to rescue win



A couple of years ago, Indiana Pacers president Larry Bird talked about the Three-Year Burnout Rule. It was like Al Davis' 10-Year Burnout Rule, except it applied to professional basketball rather than football. After three years of listening to a single coach's voice -- whether he was Miami's Pat Riley or Toronto's Sam Mitchell -- players stopped paying attention.


That, one suspects, is where the going-nowhere Indiana Pacers now reside.
They've tuned out coach Rick Carlisle.
They've tuned out the entire coaching staff.
And more and more, it seems like they've tuned out the season.
The seventh playoff spot? The eighth? Does it really matter?
Wednesday night's forgettable 111-103 victory over the Toronto Raptors stemmed a five-game losing streak -- including the unfathomable meltdown in Chicago on Tuesday -- but this is a team that remains completely lost, and will not be found next season unless critical changes are made.
"Give the guys credit for hanging in there and gutting it out,'' Carlisle said after Wednesday's win.
Gutting it out?
Good heavens.
Coming into Wednesday night, the Raptors had lost five straight. They were long out of the playoff hunt. They were missing their best player, Chris Bosh. And yet, there were the Raptors, cutting into the Pacers' 15-point third-quarter lead with the likes of Matt Bonner and Joey Graham.
Sure, the Pacers won. They won because they were slightly less inept down the stretch than the Raptors, who shouldn't have been in this game in the first place.
Truth is, this is a slow march to nowhere.
"After all these games, have you figured out this team?'' Sarunas Jasikevicius was asked.
"Nope,'' he said. "We're sort of a strange bunch in a way. . . . We had some amazing wins this year, where we pull through very tough situations, and we've had those games that have put us in the position we're in now.''
The Pacers cannot come back with this coach and this group of players. Emphasis here on players. Even greater emphasis here on point guard Jamaal Tinsley, with others to follow.
Finally, Carlisle made the move he should have made earlier; he benched Tinsley in favor of Anthony Johnson, a move he said he would have made whether Tinsley was injured or not. Do you realize the Pacers were 1-8 in their last nine games with Tinsley starting? The guy must go. And he will go. Without question.
To think, Tinsley's finest play as a Pacer came in his first month. It's been downhill since.
CEO Donnie Walsh transformed the Pacers from the veteran-laden 1999-2000 group without taking them back to Lottery Land, a remarkable feat. But with all the changes that are necessary around here, it's hard to imagine how Walsh and Bird can perform the same magic a second time.
Or if they even want to try.
Clearly, Carlisle deserves some of the responsibility for the decline of this season. He has too often coddled his stars. He has made some odd late-game decisions. And as long as he has been here, players have felt constrained by his paint-by-numbers offensive style.
And yet, I'm not ready to say he's at the heart of the problem, or that he should be in any kind of trouble with management. If anything, Carlisle represents the least of Indiana's problems.
Fact is, Carlisle took a good team to 60 victories and an Eastern Conference finals. He took a wounded team and did one of the finest coaching jobs in recent memory, leading them to the playoffs last year after the brawl and all its attendant fallout. As much as everybody wants to blame somebody -- and why not start with the coach? -- the fact is, injuries have forced him to use 30 starting combinations.
Listen, you can't coach intensity, especially in pro athletes. You can pay attention to details, but if millionaires aren't interested in playing defense, it's hard to compel them.
If you want to blame somebody, start at the top with Walsh and Bird, who left the fate of the season in Ron Artest's hands. That blew up in their faces. (This is a recording.)
If you want to blame somebody, blame the players. Nobody on this roster has covered himself in glory this season. We've seen some nice flashes from the young guys, Danny Granger and David Harrison, and for all the screaming about Stephen Jackson, at least he has played through a lot of injuries that have sidelined teammates. But it's a very, very short list.
"What's wrong with this group?'' Carlisle was asked before the game.
He shook his head, the way he's been shaking it all season, the way he did after the Pacers' excruciating loss in Chicago.
"Hard to say,'' he said. "But I still, with (eight) games left, I still believe there's a chance we can pull this thing together and do some positive things down the stretch.''
Based on what, exactly?
Maybe I've tuned him out, too.

Putnam
04-06-2006, 09:05 AM
It's a good article.

Ralph Snart
04-06-2006, 09:16 AM
This article sums up how I feel pretty well. The team has quit, which after seeing how hard the played last year, is inexcusable to me. What happened to the team that brought it every night, even if Gill was the starting point guard? What happened to the Carlisle that slapped the table and yelled when a reporter asked him if he thought we were getting beneficial refereeing last year during our series with Boston, after they had more FTAs than we did?

I like Carlisle, I like the coach that he is, but it's time for a shake up. We need a lot of new blood.

If Larry and Donny sit on their laurels during the offsesason and say they are happy with this team, I'm going to be upset.

BillS
04-06-2006, 09:29 AM
If Larry and Donny sit on their laurels during the offsesason and say they are happy with this team, I'm going to be upset.

If Larry and Donnie sit on their laurels during the offseason and say they are happy with this team <i><b>I'm</b></i> going to be upset, and that is saying a lot.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 09:30 AM
He clearly took the entire article from this board. He even used my slightly lest inept line.

Clearly I disagree about who should be replaced first. I will say I agree that if Rick is going to stay Jamaal must go. Clearly they have never gotten each other. And for Rick to want to start AJ is just insane. I think Rick would have prefered to start AJ all along he is clearly Ricks kind of pg.

I hope all of you Tinsley haters enjoy the rest of the season because we are not going to make ANY noise in the playoffs now. This team has not won a single playoff series without Jamaal and they are not going to start this year. Thier only hope would be to face the Raptors without Bosch, Peterson and Villanueva.

Indyfan
04-06-2006, 09:44 AM
When Tinsley plays well, he is by far the best PG on this team...only problem is that he has not played well for most of this season and then he does a lot of damage to the team. He hasn't earned the minutes at this point the past 8-9 games he has not helped the team more then he has hurt it. I think Rick did the right thing to sit him down, at least AJ always tries out there, and Runi has played really well the past couple of games. JT has taken over for Ron in the head case department, at least that is what I get out of Peck's report that he wasn't injured last night pre game.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 10:15 AM
When Tinsley plays well, he is by far the best PG on this team...only problem is that he has not played well for most of this season and then he does a lot of damage to the team. He hasn't earned the minutes at this point the past 8-9 games he has not helped the team more then he has hurt it. I think Rick did the right thing to sit him down, at least AJ always tries out there, and Runi has played really well the past couple of games. JT has taken over for Ron in the head case department, at least that is what I get out of Peck's report that he wasn't injured last night pre game.

Part of the reason Rick likes AJ is that AJ always tried to do what the coach wants him to do. He might not always be able to accomplish the task but he tries.

Example: Against the Bulls Rick told AJ to inbound the ball to J.O. AJ tried and could not. Rather than pass it to Jack (who was wide open and had been scoring at will like Jamaal would have done) he simply turned the ball over. If you cant see why that alone should get Rick fired then I give up.

Ralph Snart
04-06-2006, 10:17 AM
I hope all of you Tinsley haters enjoy the rest of the season because we are not going to make ANY noise in the playoffs now. This team has not won a single playoff series without Jamaal and they are not going to start this year. Thier only hope would be to face the Raptors without Bosch, Peterson and Villanueva.

What? We beat Boston last year, and he didn't start playing until game 5 (and shot less than 30% for the last three games of the series).

Now, if you were to replace "Jamaal" with "Reggie" I would agree with you. :D

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 10:19 AM
What? We beat Boston last year, and he didn't start playing until game 5 (and shot less than 30% for the last three games of the series).

Now, if you were to replace "Jamaal" with "Reggie" I would agree with you. :D

Your kidding right? Even Boston admits Jamaal beat them. Anyone who saw that series knows without a doubt we went no where without Jamaal.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 10:23 AM
Absolutely.

We lose that series without Tinsley. Period.

Ralph Snart
04-06-2006, 10:39 AM
You guys must be remembering a different series than I am.

In 3 games against Boston: 8-25 shooting, 4 APG, 3 TOPG. Even if you were to only count his points and assists, Tinsley produced 15.22% of our total points for those three games, hardly Earth-shattering.

I think we would have won without him.

brichard
04-06-2006, 10:41 AM
Absolutely.

We lose that series without Tinsley. Period.

And what exactly did he do to help us with Detroit?

JT's series against Boston ranks right up there with Austin Croshere's series against the Lakers.

Was he a difference maker? Yes.

Does it define his entire existence in the league? No.

Unbelievable. :banghead:

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 10:42 AM
You guys must be remembering a different series than I am.

In 3 games against Boston: 8-25 shooting, 4 APG, 3 TOPG. Even if you were to only count his points and assists, Tinsley produced 15.22% of our total points for those three games, hardly Earth-shattering.

I think we would have won without him.

I am guessing you did not watch the series?

sweabs
04-06-2006, 10:48 AM
Another article from Kravitz that I can't say I disagree with. That's been happening more frequently than I would have ever imagined...

I still think he reads PD though...there are just too many similarities in his articles.

Hicks
04-06-2006, 10:52 AM
And what exactly did he do to help us with Detroit?

JT's series against Boston ranks right up there with Austin Croshere's series against the Lakers.

Was he a difference maker? Yes.

Does it define his entire existence in the league? No.

Unbelievable. :banghead:

Good point. Not to say that Tinsley's never contributed more than Austin, but against the Pistons I never felt like he brought more than he gave up.

Ralph Snart
04-06-2006, 10:56 AM
I am guessing you did not watch the series?

I watched every single game, and nearly broke my remote during the first game blowout. It pissed me off that a team that played with so much heart for the entire season would roll over like that in the first game of the playoffs.

When Tinsley came back in game 5, he had a solid game fueled by adrenaline. In game 6 and 7 he did nothing memorable, other than flounder and fall over when Pierce elbowed him (and we still lost that game).

McClintic Sphere
04-06-2006, 10:57 AM
To think, Tinsley's finest play as a Pacer came in his first month. It's been downhill since.

Dead on, unfortunately. I beg anyone still defending Tinsley to drag out some tape of the last Phoenix game and compare his play to what a real PG looks like in Steve Nash. The Tinman made every fundamental error in the book in that game: penetrate into a collapsing defense without any idea of what his options were, not keep track of the opposing PG in transition, not adapt to the opponent's changing defense to get our in team in an appropriate set, not be able to shoot, do nothing to raise the energy level of the team. Phoenix OTOH, had their secondary players with eyes wide open the entire game knowing if they would run the break, find spots in the defense, and space the floor, they were going to get the ball. The difference was glaring.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 11:00 AM
Dead on, unfortunately. I beg anyone still defending Tinsley to drag out some tape of the last Phoenix game and compare his play to what a real PG looks like in Steve Nash. The Tinman made every fundamental error in the book in that game: penetrate into a collapsing defense without any idea of what his options were, not keep track of the opposing PG in transition, not adapt to the opponent's changing defense to get our in team in an appropriate set, not be able to shoot, do nothing to raise the energy level of the team. Phoenix OTOH, had their secondary players with eyes wide open the entire game knowing if they would run the break, find spots in the defense, and space the floor, they were going to get the ball. The difference was glaring.

I notice you ignored the Sixers game of course. Or the games against the heat Jamaal single handedly beat them 5 or 6 times in a row.

McClintic Sphere
04-06-2006, 11:10 AM
I notice you ignored the Sixers game of course. Or the games against the heat Jamaal single handedly beat them 5 or 6 times in a row.

Yeah, I'll admit I missed those single handed beatings. Does Jamaal have flashes of greatness? Hell yeah. So does the entire team. Those are like small patches of clear skin on a leper. If Tins continues to be the "catalyst" for our team, then we will continue to be just as erratic as he is.

Jermaniac
04-06-2006, 11:18 AM
You guys must be remembering a different series than I am.

In 3 games against Boston: 8-25 shooting, 4 APG, 3 TOPG. Even if you were to only count his points and assists, Tinsley produced 15.22% of our total points for those three games, hardly Earth-shattering.

I think we would have won without him.Ohh please. AJ and Gill could not get the ball past the half court line against the Celtics, Tins doesnt come back we dont go on to play the Pistons in the 2nd round.

brichard
04-06-2006, 11:26 AM
Yeah, I'll admit I missed those single handed beatings. Does Jamaal have flashes of greatness? Hell yeah. So does the entire team. Those are like small patches of clear skin on a leper. If Tins continues to be the "catalyst" for our team, then we will continue to be just as erratic as he is.

Agreed! I think your analysis of JT is spot on. He just hasn't improved that much during his time in the league. He did come back that one summer in really good shape and his offensive game has been elevated at different times.

However, when his shooting is bad we get the same old JT. Flashes of brilliance? Absolutely. Totally unpredictable and inconsistent? Absolutely. And that my friends is just not a solid foundation to build your house on. Everybody will have good/bad games, but you have to have some consistency from your maestro. Even a downgrade at PG with overall skills may be better for the Pacers if that player can be consistent.

The Pacers team that went to the finals had definite flaws. However, they were able to mask their physical limitations by a team oriented scheme. There is just no way to build a predictable and consistent team around erratic guys like Jack, JT, and Jalen... and that is why I've always hurt my brain watching them all... in spite of their obvious talents.

Mushmouth
04-06-2006, 11:28 AM
Bobby Jackson is a Free Agent this offseason, right? Can he be a long-term solution at starting point? I think getting rid of or demoting Jamal is a done deal at this point, but I'm worried about finding a replacement. It's not going to come through the draft... and I'll cry if AJ is our starter to begin next year.

Some other FA's this off-season:

Jason Terry
Speedy Claxton

Ralph Snart
04-06-2006, 11:34 AM
Ohh please. AJ and Gill could not get the ball past the half court line against the Celtics, Tins doesnt come back we dont go on to play the Pistons in the 2nd round.

I think you're overstating his importance. We were able to win 2 games without him, and he only averaged 25 minutes over the three games he did play.

I agree with you about gill, he sucked big time in that series, and AJ oscillated between playing well and playing poor, but we could have won the series with them.

You guys are making it sound like Tinsley threw us on his back the last three games of the series. We would have won without him, we would not have won without Reggie, Jermaine, or Jack.

Jermaniac
04-06-2006, 11:34 AM
I was thinking of Speedy Claxton last night when I was thinking about some PG's we could use. If Tins is gone I wouldnt mind Speedy.

BillS
04-06-2006, 11:36 AM
Yeah, I'll admit I missed those single handed beatings. Does Jamaal have flashes of greatness? Hell yeah. So does the entire team. Those are like small patches of clear skin on a leper.

No comment other than to point out this is a masterful, nay, almost Peck-like, turn of phrase.

Jermaniac
04-06-2006, 11:36 AM
I think you're overstating his importance. We were able to win 2 games without him, and he only averaged 25 minutes over the three games he did play.

I agree with you about gill, he sucked big time in that series, and AJ oscillated between playing well and playing poor, but we could have won the series with them.

You guys are making it sound like Tinsley threw us on his back the last three games of the series. We would have won without him, we would not have won without Reggie, Jermaine, or Jack.You are wrong and its sad that you couldnt see the impact Tins made on our team when he came back.

The Celtics coaches said that He was the biggest difference maker on our team, and if he didnt come back we wouldnt have won.

Ralph Snart
04-06-2006, 11:44 AM
You are wrong and its sad that you couldnt see the impact Tins made on our team when he came back.

The Celtics coaches said that He was the biggest difference maker on our team, and if he didnt come back we wouldnt have won.

Agree to disagree, then. But I will point out that you are taking the word of...Doc Rivers.

Also note that I am not saying Tinsley didn't contribute to us winning the series, rather, I am saying we would have won the series regardless of him playing or not.

brichard
04-06-2006, 11:47 AM
Good point. Not to say that Tinsley's never contributed more than Austin, but against the Pistons I never felt like he brought more than he gave up.

Well we did win that game when Austin was inserted in the starting lineup...

:)

Hah, I just remembered Jeff Foster's offensive game of his life as well.

:cool:

Jon Theodore
04-06-2006, 01:15 PM
This team needs to take a LONG hard look at signing Jason Terry. We might as well let Peja walk, i'd rather get Terry.

Peja is playing for a contract right now and Granger in 2 years will be soooo much better than Peja. Or we decide to keep Peja and use Granger as trade bait (probably has highest trade value of anyone on our team.)

Since we are going to be getting a decent draft pick, I say we go for a shooting guard in the draft. Jackson has got to go along with Tinsley. I think a lot of teams would be willing to give us solid players in return, but are going to want us to be packaging Granger along with the reject(s).

I would love having Jason Terry here. A point guard who can consistently drain the three, but can also dribble the ball.

CableKC
04-06-2006, 02:18 PM
After reading the article....I think that Mr.Kravitz frequents PD and pretty much copies and pastes some of our posts. :rolleyes:

Maybe there should be some footnote references here and there from the Article....j/k.

CableKC
04-06-2006, 02:24 PM
After rereading the article.....Kravitz pretty much summarizes what many of us have brought up here and there. I pretty much agree with most of what he says..........to me...most of the blame should go to the players......and some of it...but not all...should fall on Carlisle as well.

Suaveness
04-06-2006, 02:26 PM
Ok, some people are really overrating Tinsley here.

Yes, he is our best PG.

However, A. he is never healthy
B. he makes dumb decisions

I'm sorry, he shoudl not be starting.

rexnom
04-06-2006, 04:01 PM
This team needs to take a LONG hard look at signing Jason Terry. We might as well let Peja walk, i'd rather get Terry.

Peja is playing for a contract right now and Granger in 2 years will be soooo much better than Peja. Or we decide to keep Peja and use Granger as trade bait (probably has highest trade value of anyone on our team.)

Since we are going to be getting a decent draft pick, I say we go for a shooting guard in the draft. Jackson has got to go along with Tinsley. I think a lot of teams would be willing to give us solid players in return, but are going to want us to be packaging Granger along with the reject(s).

I would love having Jason Terry here. A point guard who can consistently drain the three, but can also dribble the ball.

That is probably wishful thinking. He is staying in Dallas. And even if he wanted to come here, I doubt we'd have the money to sign him since he probably won't sign for the MLE or minimum. A sign-and-trade is the only possible scenario and Dallas loves Terry so I don't see that happening either.

CableKC
04-06-2006, 05:29 PM
I was thinking of Speedy Claxton last night when I was thinking about some PG's we could use. If Tins is gone I wouldnt mind Speedy.
Speedy Claxton has a tendency to get injured as well......remember him in Golden State?

He's nowhere near how injury prone tendency of Tinsley....but enough to notice.

CableKC
04-06-2006, 05:34 PM
This team needs to take a LONG hard look at signing Jason Terry. We might as well let Peja walk, i'd rather get Terry.

Peja is playing for a contract right now and Granger in 2 years will be soooo much better than Peja. Or we decide to keep Peja and use Granger as trade bait (probably has highest trade value of anyone on our team.)

Since we are going to be getting a decent draft pick, I say we go for a shooting guard in the draft. Jackson has got to go along with Tinsley. I think a lot of teams would be willing to give us solid players in return, but are going to want us to be packaging Granger along with the reject(s).

I would love having Jason Terry here. A point guard who can consistently drain the three, but can also dribble the ball.
The problem with Terry is that he will be one of the top PG Free Agents during the offseason.

I browsed through the 2006 Free Agent Offseason list and the only names that stuck out at the PG spot was Terry and Mike James.....the rest of the PG Free Agent list is made up of 2nd tier backup PGs.

I don't think that the Pacers are gonna shell out that amount of money...even if they let Peja go. At this point....I think an upgrade at the PG would be beneficial...but not nearly as pressing ( cuz of AJ and Sarunas ) as filling the SG hole that would be vacated when SJax is traded and Freddie is not resigned.

owl
04-06-2006, 05:57 PM
The Pacers best bet for shooting guard is through the draft. Reddick
is possible and in the second round James White would be a good pick.
Point guard might be Marcus Williams. I am not sure anyone would want
the backcourt of the Pacers.


owl

CableKC
04-06-2006, 06:11 PM
The Pacers best bet for shooting guard is through the draft. Reddick
is possible and in the second round James White would be a good pick.
Point guard might be Marcus Williams. I am not sure anyone would want
the backcourt of the Pacers.
owl
I would doubt that any of them would be anything more then a backup player...at least for now. I would still prefer to draft a defensive minded perimeter defender...if an outstanding one available in the 1st round...or a decent one that can develop their game more in the 2nd round.

I get the sense that there wouldn't be any real superstars that come out of this year's draft......but some likely solid roleplayers and even starters that maybe available. If Bird and Walsh do their homework......we can probably come away with a steal or two.

brichard
04-06-2006, 06:20 PM
I just would like to say that making me agree with Kravitz is an unforgivable sin for this Pacer team! :mad:

Will Galen
04-06-2006, 06:25 PM
After reading the article....I think that Mr.Kravitz frequents PD and pretty much copies and pastes some of our posts. :rolleyes:

My first thought is, "There's nothing wrong with that, we do the same to him."

I think he surfs on here just as other writers do. I've thought a few times that the way I phrased something was lifted from here by a writer. I have no problem with it. Really though I've never seen a writer copy and paste an article written here, though I've thought that a writer has reworked something written here.

Then again, do to the Internet there's really not much that any writer could come up with that's not discussed on here.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 07:10 PM
Just got back to this thread.

We were going to lose to Boston without Tinsley, and he played brilliantly after a sluggish first game.

We had no chance of beating Detroit, so its now convenient to blame that on Tinsley??

Think back to the 2004 playoffs - when Tinsley, who had been healthy all year, got hurt in that series it was the turning point.

Jamaal Tinsley won a playoff series for us.

The comparison to Foster's game (in a series we lost) or Austin's stellar series (that we also lost) are misguided.

Hicks
04-06-2006, 07:10 PM
My first thought is, "There's nothing wrong with that, we do the same to him."

There's a problem with it because he gets paid a salary to do it.

CableKC
04-06-2006, 07:46 PM
My first thought is, "There's nothing wrong with that, we do the same to him."

I think he surfs on here just as other writers do. I've thought a few times that the way I phrased something was lifted from here by a writer. I have no problem with it. Really though I've never seen a writer copy and paste an article written here, though I've thought that a writer has reworked something written here.

Then again, do to the Internet there's really not much that any writer could come up with that's not discussed on here.
I was joking in my initial post......but I can also look at it as a testiment to the high quality of discussions that we have here in PD have about the Pacers. :buddies:

Mr.ThunderMakeR
04-06-2006, 08:31 PM
Why do the Tinsley supporters ALWAYS bring up the Boston series in EVERY thread where he is discussed? That event occured almost a full year ago now, and a lot has changed since then. Even if he was reponsible for us winning that series, I fail to see how that means he should be starting now and RC should overlook his entire season of lackluster play (or complete refusal to play.) Not to mention that hes playing worse now than he has all season. Look I dont want AJ starting for this team any more than anyone else, but I dont really see how Tinsley has shown lately that he is a better option.

Maybe this team used to 'go as Tinsley goes' but its pretty clear that isnt the case anymore. The time of Tinsley dominating the ball then driving into the lane to create shots for others (eg dish the ball to JO and Ron) is over. This team needs more off the ball motion and passing to be successful.

Actually scratch that last statement, this team needs to be broken up to be successful.

ChicagoJ
04-07-2006, 03:07 PM
No, this team is still very dependent on Tinsley. Tinsley didn't play particuarly well when he returned (although it was still better than AJ or Saras) and the team continued to struggle. When he's played well, they've won.

At least you're admitting to being myopic. A year ago is not very long by NBA standards. ESPN's standards? Yes. But not NBA standards.

Tinsley - even when less than 100% - is a player capable of determining the outcome of a playoff series.

Ragnar
04-07-2006, 03:11 PM
Why do the Tinsley supporters ALWAYS bring up the Boston series in EVERY thread where he is discussed?

Because the playoffs are the ONLY thing that matters and this team has won not a single playoff series without him.

PacerMan
04-07-2006, 03:30 PM
Why do the Tinsley supporters ALWAYS bring up the Boston series in EVERY thread where he is discussed? That event occured almost a full year ago now, and a lot has changed since then. Even if he was reponsible for us winning that series, I fail to see how that means he should be starting now and RC should overlook his entire season of lackluster play (or complete refusal to play.) Not to mention that hes playing worse now than he has all season. Look I dont want AJ starting for this team any more than anyone else, but I dont really see how Tinsley has shown lately that he is a better option.

Maybe this team used to 'go as Tinsley goes' but its pretty clear that isnt the case anymore. The time of Tinsley dominating the ball then driving into the lane to create shots for others (eg dish the ball to JO and Ron) is over. This team needs more off the ball motion and passing to be successful.

Actually scratch that last statement, this team needs to be broken up to be successful.


It's not even the 'extras' like driving and dishing. Defensive intensity and pressure goes up about 200% at playoff time. It's the BASIC thing of getting the ball over the time line against heavy pressure! Neither AJ nor Saras can do that. As you'll soon see...... (if we make it in)

A-Train
04-07-2006, 03:40 PM
Because the playoffs are the ONLY thing that matters and this team has won not a single playoff series without him.

Being that Tinsley is so good, just think how much better our regular season records might have been had Tinsley not missed 30 games in '04, 42 games in '05, and 35 games (so far) in '06? Think our playoff chances would have been better had we been a higher seed?

Kinda reminds me of the Artest arguement about how much better we are WITH him. Well, that doesn't really mean a whole lot when he's sitting on the bench because he's been suspended YET AGAIN, now does it?

Mr. Sinus Infection needs to go. Enough already.

Los Angeles
04-07-2006, 03:50 PM
Being that Tinsley is so good, just think how much better our regular season records might have been had Tinsley not missed 30 games in '04, 42 games in '05, and 35 games (so far) in '06? Think our playoff chances would have been better had we been a higher seed?

Kinda reminds me of the Artest arguement about how much better we are WITH him. Well, that doesn't really mean a whole lot when he's sitting on the bench because he's been suspended YET AGAIN, now does it?

Mr. Sinus Infection needs to go. Enough already.
The 30 games he missed in 04 were due to Rick benching him and nothing more. We also won 3/4 games. The other two years? You're point holds up. Those are all on Tinsley.

Evan_The_Dude
04-07-2006, 03:57 PM
I like Tinsley, yes he's a difference maker in a playoff series, but he can't stay healthy to help create team chemistry for ******. I'd almost say the same about JO, but I'm not quite there with him yet, plus he's not a point guard.

IMO, dealing with Tinsley's injuries is just as hurtful to the team as dealing with Artests issues was.

hoopsforlife
04-07-2006, 04:00 PM
Why do the Tinsley supporters ALWAYS bring up the Boston series in EVERY thread where he is discussed?

I think it because it the last time Tinsley ever played with any desire or inspiration at all. I myself cheered him for the effort last year, and felt for him deeply when Rick pulled him because he couldn't hardly walk anymore, but this is a new year. His attitude is terrible and his effort is nonexistant. In my opinion he is way more of a bad cell to this team than Ron ever was. The sooner he is traded, cut or retired the better off the Pacers will be.

Have a nice day. :)

Mourning
04-07-2006, 04:29 PM
Absolutely.

We lose that series without Tinsley. Period.

True. He didn't have the best numbers, but his ability to safely bring the ball up and efficiently initiate the offense is what made the difference in our advantage. However, I still want him gone this summer though.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Mourning
04-07-2006, 04:33 PM
I think it because it the last time Tinsley ever played with any desire or inspiration at all. I myself cheered him for the effort last year, and felt for him deeply when Rick pulled him because he couldn't hardly walk anymore, but this is a new year. His attitude is terrible and his effort is nonexistant. In my opinion he is way more of a bad cell to this team than Ron ever was. The sooner he is traded, cut or retired the better off the Pacers will be.

Last year, I LOVED the way the Tinman played. He was injured a lot, but the way he played after the Brawl and took charge of the team, I really liked him then.

However, he's been a shadow of how he was the former season. And even in that season, like I wrote, he was injured already a lot.

Anyway, the above post describes my feelings towards Tinsley the last 4/5 months the best.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Unclebuck
04-07-2006, 04:38 PM
this team is still very dependent on Tinsley.


That is the saddest thing I've ever read in this forum. Truely sad

Since86
04-07-2006, 04:48 PM
No, this team is still very dependent on Tinsley.

I don't think it's necessarily Tinsley. The team is dependent on a PG of his caliber.

A pentrating, pass first PG would fill the void. It's the type of player that the team is dependent on, not the player.

Bball
04-07-2006, 05:42 PM
That is the saddest thing I've ever read in this forum. Truely sad

The answer is that they need to go 'cold turkey'.

-Bball

Bball
04-07-2006, 05:47 PM
I don't think it's necessarily Tinsley. The team is dependent on a PG of his caliber.

A pentrating, pass first PG would fill the void. It's the type of player that the team is dependent on, not the player.

The team is dependent on JO being more like Tim Duncan. At least as long as Carlisle is coach. Even Reggie learned to feed the post.

While I've grown to dislike Tinsley that doesn't mean I think he's -the- problem. He might be part of the problem but he's far from being the sole problem. As I said somewhere else around here, Tinsley is just a sideshow... they are plenty of other issues with this team.

--

While I am not sure how many other teams could've had an "11/19" I am sure that the Pacers were one of the worst teams it could've happened to. A severe lack of leadership and mental weakness doomed this core group once 11/19 happened. The same things that would allow an 11/19 scenario to escalate and become what it did are also the same things that are dooming this team. Posers, pretenders, and ego-driven malcontents aren't the path to a title.

Management might've had good intentions but good intentions pave a path to.....

-
In hindsight we can see what a true leader can do to lead a team by seeing what Reggie did when he put away his "Reggie the deferrer" uniform and once again grabbed his Superman cape last year. Wake me up when JO comes even close to doing that.


-Bball

A-Train
04-07-2006, 05:48 PM
The 30 games he missed in 04 were due to Rick benching him and nothing more. We also won 3/4 games. The other two years? You're point holds up. Those are all on Tinsley.

The fact that we won 3/4 of our games during the season that Carlisle sat Tinsley (as opposed to him being hurt) doesn't say much for Tinsley.

:cool:

D-BONE
04-07-2006, 06:00 PM
Just got back to this thread.

We were going to lose to Boston without Tinsley, and he played brilliantly after a sluggish first game.

We had no chance of beating Detroit, so its now convenient to blame that on Tinsley??

Think back to the 2004 playoffs - when Tinsley, who had been healthy all year, got hurt in that series it was the turning point.

Jamaal Tinsley won a playoff series for us.

The comparison to Foster's game (in a series we lost) or Austin's stellar series (that we also lost) are misguided.

Not true about the comparisons. In each case, great individual performances. However, most games are won by great TEAM performances.

This has been touched on here and elsewhere, JT did not single handedly win the Boston series for us. He was instrumental in one or two individual games that contributed to us winning the entire series. But let's not foget about somebody like DD, who added a couple stellar games there also.

The point about the ECF serives vs. Detroit is not to exclusively blame JT for its loss. The fact that he was breaking down is what's telling because that's a pattern that's stuck with him throughout and a major issue in assessing his value.

grace
04-08-2006, 11:24 AM
Another article from Kravitz that I can't say I disagree with. That's been happening more frequently than I would have ever imagined...

I still think he reads PD though...there are just too many similarities in his articles.

He reads the board and he sent his spy to Perkins. That article proves it.

Kegboy
04-08-2006, 12:39 PM
First time I've looked at this thread, and I can't believe people are actually trying to argue we could have beaten Boston last year without Tinsley. I know people love their revisionist history, but that's positively insane.

bulletproof
04-08-2006, 01:57 PM
I hope all of you Tinsley haters enjoy the rest of the season because we are not going to make ANY noise in the playoffs now. This team has not won a single playoff series without Jamaal and they are not going to start this year. Thier only hope would be to face the Raptors without Bosch, Peterson and Villanueva.

Your overzealous support of Tinsley is bizarre, to say the least. There is a glaring problem and those who recognize it and want something done about it are "haters?" We're back to that again? You need a reality check, man.

Los Angeles
04-08-2006, 03:56 PM
The fact that we won 3/4 of our games during the season that Carlisle sat Tinsley (as opposed to him being hurt) doesn't say much for Tinsley.

:cool:
I need to go find out, but I think we were like a .650 winner with Kenny Anderson and a .800 winner with Tinsley. Can someone help me out?

Miller4ever
04-08-2006, 10:42 PM
brewer ! we need you !

Unclebuck
04-08-2006, 11:01 PM
I need to go find out, but I think we were like a .650 winner with Kenny Anderson and a .800 winner with Tinsley. Can someone help me out?



Pacers were 34-9 in games that Tinsley started during the 2004 season