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Peck
04-06-2006, 01:34 AM
Ok, I did something that I have not done since we were at MSA. I got to the fieldhouse when they opened up the doors. Actually it was sureal to be in the fieldhouse with litterally maybe 20-30 other people (besides workers & players).

I went to my seating area but thought, oh what the heck I'll just mozy over to the middle of the court & sit as low as I could to watch shoot around.

Toronto's entire team is out doing a pre-game shootaround & from our team Ed Gill, Saras, A.J., Danny Granger & Jeff Foster were out on the floor shooting around. On our bench set Jamaal Tinsley who was drinking Gatorade.

Here are just some things I noticed in the shootaround (you can learn a lot from these if you watch them close enough)

1. Ed Gill does not miss in pre-game. He must burn up all of his magic at this time because he can't hit a shot during a game to save his life but in pre-game the man is a God. He & Danny were guarding each other & he was just raining threes down on Granger like he was Reggie.

2. Anthony Johnson is the consumate pro in the pre-game. No messing around, no trick shots, no joking. He was all business & had a very strict regiment he was following including shooting 100 free throws (or close to it I quite counting after awhile).

3. Danny Granger shoots & shoots & shoots some more in the pre-game. He was out there before I got there & stayed on the floor longer than anybody else. There were other players that came out much later that were on the floor after Danny went back to the locker room but none were on as long as he was.

4. Saras only did a quick shoot around & went back to the locker room.

As Ed Gill was getting ready to leave the court he stopped by to see Jamaal. He & J.T. joked around for a few min. & then he gave Jamaal the ball. Jamaal proceded to shoot four shots from his seat without ever getting up. He missed all of these shots.

A.J. stopped by Jamaal as he was heading to the locker room. He bent over & whispered something but Jamaal waved him off afterwards. A.J. then went & signed Autographs.

At this time only Granger, Chuck Person (who was playing with some young kids in the front row) & Jamaal were on the floor.

Danny worked on the long ball while Jamaal proceded to go to the corner to work on his three point shot. I paid attention to this because he has stunk so bad from the field that I wanted to see what he did in pre-game.

Sure enough he missed his first 7 shots but then ripped off 5 in a row before moving in for some closer work. By this time J.O., Jax & I think Pollard were out there.

More & more people were starting to filter in so I knew that I would have to move back to my seat before long. As I was getting up I saw Jamaal doing spin moves under the basket vs. Dan Burke.

Why is any of this important? Because it was the last time I saw Jamaal for the night.

I heard no pre-game so I had no idea what was going on till tip off when I saw A.J. starting. I turned around & yelled up to Roaming Gnome to ask if he knew what was going on with Jamaal & he said that in the pre-game show Mark Boyle has said Jamaal was benched. I thought it was odd that he wasn't on the bench but with this team who knows.

It wasn't until I came home that Diamond Dave told me that they listed Jamaal out because of an achilies injury or something like that.

Um, if this is true how do they explain the fact that the guy was doing spin moves on the baseline?

It was very obvious that Jamaal & A.J. were haveing an issue, I don't know what it was but it was obvious.

I know there are those who hate whenever any of us question an injury or illness, but in this case I'm just going to come out & call this one pure & utter B.S.

Even if he developed some pain from his practice, which he showed zero signs of, what would keep him from dressing in a suit & sitting on the bench with the team?

I've heard now there is something going on between Rick & Jamaal & once again people are on here choosing sides.

How about this for a side.

Let's get rid of both of them. Yes, Jamaal is a talented player. Yes, Rick is a talented coach.

Both have flaws & IMO both have worn out their welcome here.

I just thought I would tell you all this.

Ok, there was one really funny thing in the warmup lines just prior to tip off. If you have never seen David Harrison & Scot Pollard dance you have not lived.

I cannot even begin to describe the dance David was doing but it was the funniest thing I've ever seen on the floor. He had Pollard & Foster busting up.

BTW, side note, isn't it nice to have a big guy who doesn't take himself to seriously. Scot Pollard may have been a very good influance in the career of David Harrison for that reason alone.

Jermaine O'Neal can be serious enough for the whole team, so it's ok to have Pollard & Harrison be funny as long as they do their jobs.

To the game.

Have you ever had one of those feelings that you just didn't suck as much as the other team instead of being the better team? Well that's how I felt during this game. No matter how bad we played we just couldn't play as bad as Toronto was, although we tried very very hard to give this one away as well.

Two additional notes.

A. The fieldhouse was a barren wasteland devoid of human life & spirit.

B. During the announcement of the home team it was so quiet that you could clearly hear Steven Jackson being boo'd. The boo's outnumbered the cheers for Jax in this one IMO, at least in our section. But then again Roaming Gnome was behind us so we could be skewed in our view.;)

Mike James just tore us apart. I'll say this, if Carlisle does stay then Mike James is your man. He is about everything that he would ever want in a p.g., he would have to work on his man to man defense a little but by no means is he bad.

Pope Sow is Short. I mean really short. I don't care what he is listed at he is no taller than 6'8" tall because Granger was taller & bigger than he was. This was my first time seeing him in person & I was shocked at how small he was. So those NBDL stats. are way way way over inflated because he will never ever be able to reproduce even a 1/3 of those in the NBA.

Sam Mitchell was about to have a seizure evertime one of his team would mess up on the floor. He griped at the refs. maybe 2 or 3 times all-night and the rest of the time he was on his players.

I know that wouldn't go over well with our guys & in truth it's probably not that affective but man would I love to see someone go after our bunch with 1/2 as much vigor as Sam went after his players.

Good God the Raptors kept putting Peja at the line all night long. I don't know how many freethrows he shot but it was a lot & I think he hit them all.

Edit* just checked he was 12-12:-o

I'm glad they did this though as he was not shooting well from the floor for most of the night.

Saras had a good night from the floor as well. He got 11 points, all in the first half, but he still laid out some nice assists. When he is hitting his shots he does change the game for the other team because they cannot leave him alone.

Jeff had a good night on the floor & another solid night on the boards. He did a very good job guarding Villanueva forcing him into several bad shots.

Jackson, well, Jackson had a Jackson kind of a night. He scored a good amount & played decent defense but he made some real bonehead plays that I have no idea how they did not count for turnovers.

I think he was distracted by Roaming Gnomes boo's from the upper deck. On a funny side note, he did get the evil eye from the people in front of us during the game. I'm sure they just loved it when he came down & set with us after the half.:)

A.J. had a decent evening. Although he was smoked by James on several occasions during the game. At least he hit some timely shots in the 4th to keep us on the lead.

I'm sorry I'm not more up after this game guys, but in truth we just couldn't give this one away.

Although we will probably make the playoffs, that's not a 100% certainty btw, I just don't see us doing anything once we are there.

I have a feeling, well as Boston would sing More than a feeling, that this team is a mess behind closed doors.

Neither Walsh or Bird were at this game, which I haven't seen that in a long time. I don't know what that means or even if it means anything at all.

CableKC
04-06-2006, 02:11 AM
So Tinsley was capable of shooting in the pre-game warmup.....but supposedly had some problem with his achilles heel...enough for him to sit out the game.

Something is.....afoot....

On a side note....while watching ESPN GameCast, I stupidly thought that we were playing on the road in Toronto.....so I wasn't surprised that Toronto put up 100+ points on us since we aren't that great of a defensive team on the road. After I read your post ( which is very enlightening )....I realized that we sucked it up on the defensive end at home.

This maybe a much needed victory.....and although a victory is a victory.......we have never played this poorly on the defensive end against a team like Toronto who was missing their #1 player.

CableKC
04-06-2006, 02:29 AM
Ok, there was one really funny thing in the warmup lines just prior to tip off. If you have never seen David Harrison & Scot Pollard dance you have not lived.

I cannot even begin to describe the dance David was doing but it was the funniest thing I've ever seen on the floor. He had Pollard & Foster busting up.

BTW, side note, isn't it nice to have a big guy who doesn't take himself to seriously. Scot Pollard may have been a very good influance in the career of David Harrison for that reason alone.

Jermaine O'Neal can be serious enough for the whole team, so it's ok to have Pollard & Harrison be funny as long as they do their jobs.
Why am I not surprised that a guy with a huge smile like this ---> :harrison: can do this ----> :dance: ?

You just pointed out another reason to resign Pollard for the Vet minimum for a 1 or 2 year contract. If not for the occasional Shaq duty......he would be a good mentor to the Hulk.

Seed
04-06-2006, 02:53 AM
I think the important thing was to shake off this loosing streak.

Also - IMO Rick made a good decision starting AJ, and I am pretty certain if he performs reasonably he will continue to start into the playoffs.

I expect the team to improve significantly over the next games. Just a hunch.

Lord Helmet
04-06-2006, 02:56 AM
Peck, could you describe more in depth how Tinsley, "waved off" AJ?

This wasn't the first time I read on here that he did it. Diamond Dave said something about it earlier, and I take it Jamaal was doing it in a ****ty manner?

stew
04-06-2006, 03:06 AM
love your ODD THOUGHT's peck...

Kaufman
04-06-2006, 03:16 AM
I know there are those who hate whenever any of us question an injury or illness, but in this case I'm just going to come out & call this one pure & utter B.S.

Even if he developed some pain from his practice, which he showed zero signs of, what would keep him from dressing in a suit & sitting on the bench with the team?


I don't understand why nobody believes me when I tell you that falsifying a medical report is a regular practice. I tell you guys every time. And if it happens in the NCAA environment which is MUCH MUCH more strict, it happens in the NBA. Its not uncommon for me to do this 2-3 times a week to hide or disguise some other reason a player is not playing. Its a ritual that is as old as the game in my opinion.

Thanks for the long and interesting insight on pregame, Peck. You can learn a lot about who likes one another by watching player interactions. I observed a situation this year where two players who were previously friends randomly stopped interacting very suddenly. I did some investigation and found out that the girlfriend of one of them was impregnated by the other player. Pregame/practice is always the time to see these kinds of problems.

PS - Peck, you emailed me recently and I replied back but never heard back from you. Was wondering if you got my reply, and what the outcome of the matter at hand was??

Peck
04-06-2006, 04:46 AM
Peck, could you describe more in depth how Tinsley, "waved off" AJ?

This wasn't the first time I read on here that he did it. Diamond Dave said something about it earlier, and I take it Jamaal was doing it in a ****ty manner?


Don't read to much into the "waving off" because obviously I was not down there to hear what A.J. said.

It could have been "hey Jamaal after the game you wanna go bowling" & Jamaal just waved him off for all I know.

However, given the context of the entire evening & what appeared to me to be an upset Jamaal you can read into it what you will.

However I stand 100% behind the fact that I saw the guy doing warmups & doing things during warmups that a person who has an ankle problem could not do.

Bball
04-06-2006, 05:35 AM
Don't read to much into the "waving off" because obviously I was not down there to hear what A.J. said.

It could have been "hey Jamaal after the game you wanna go bowling" & Jamaal just waved him off for all I know.

However, given the context of the entire evening & what appeared to me to be an upset Jamaal you can read into it what you will.

However I stand 100% behind the fact that I saw the guy doing warmups & doing things during warmups that a person who has an ankle problem could not do.

Is the speculation that Jamaal refused to play and made up an injury excuse for himself OR is it speculation he threw a fit over something (such as AJ's retaking the starting PG role or 'conduct detrimental to winning') and got himself suspended for a game?

-Bball

able
04-06-2006, 06:37 AM
Let's face some realities instead of grassy knolls.

1: Peck; Great post as usual, my 1 single ray of light in the darkness that is the flu in combination with work you need to use a brain with in cold environments (shiver)

2: JT and RC have never at any stage in hte 3 years they are together been a "happy pair"

RC has on several occassions done everything he could to "mold" JT into a benchplayer or something he wants instead of going with the strength of JT, as he has done with several other players.
There was not last night and not after reading this one thought in my mind that JT was really injured, in fact I am pretty sure he was benched.
JT does not strike me as the player that will do his utmost to upset people, but we all know what type of player RC likes and what type of player JT is and the two don't mix.
JT being pulled after 1 and a half minute playing time in the 4th against the Bulls was telling enough to me that there was something very wrong, specially when it all went south and with 14 seconds to go and down 6 JT was brough in again.

Let's face reality; despite some decent actions, play last night was pathetic, poor and we probably would have lost from any other team in the league.
Penetration was like walking into a candyshop for the likes of James & Co. no one there to stop them, front them or bother them.
Without wanting to hurt any player's fans, our PG play last night was sad to put it mildly.

The "shot distribution" in the line-up is so poor that it is bound to give more problems, the fact that Jax easily has 30% more shots then anyone else, including JO says a lot and yes the fact that AJ takes as many shots as JO and Peja says equally as much, namely; this is "whack".

Harrisson playing 6 minutes in total against an oponnent with no real big men and those that are of fair size in foul trouble again says something.

The coach is the one person who "molds" the team "together" who "motivates" and who "gets the best out of his players" or at least, that is how it is supposed to be.

Our coach has now for 3 years played players out of position, because he thinks they should play another position, has had favorite players that we all cringed at thinking about them let alone seeing them play, has not like his starting PG from day one (and yet he was signed by TPTB to a 6 year contract) has played our curent SG preferably at SF, has made our 4 bulk up and play the 5, much to the detriment of the player nad so on and so on.
Has made his best friend his Assistant, while losing the better coach to another team.
No I am not defending Ron, but it was him who said he didn't awnt to play for Rick anymore.
Do you see any "fun" in our team when they play? do you see them having fun?
Most if not all are good soldiers, they do as they're told, but some can take so much and other more or less.
If JT got away with half the crap Jax gets away with he would be playing.
And we are blaming the players.

not me (anymore).


I have gotten more and more respect for Jermaine O'Neal in this for the simple reason that he at no moment in time has even hinted to not support the coach, has not hinted about unhappiness, not biatched about his number of touches, his own stats, shown that he can pass with the best since Peja arrived (averaging more then 4 Ast since) has when he could not play helped other such as David in getting better and so on and so on.

The fact that Jax can shout at anyone including the coach and keep playing says to much.
The fact that other players don't says even more.

And in a final bout of honesty; I doubt we will make the post season, very much.

D-BONE
04-06-2006, 07:09 AM
Blame it on Rio, baby. Let's not let our personal player biases get in the way. A team that is this pathetic means everyone should be called out and held accountable. That includes the coach.

The only thing that's gonna make me happy is lots of new blood on this team come training camp next fall. I think players should be first priority but I'm open to coaching, as well. This disgraceful performance is a two-way street to some extent or another.

So let's see. I'll assume Rick is gone and then the next priority should be making JO, JT, and Jack disappear.

The only way JO should stay is if we can get a true star in here (not too easy I don't suspect) and an understanding from JO that his main role will be defense, rebounding, an occasional post scoring opportunity, and dropping some bulk. In other words, not the first offensive option.

JO might be OK with this but it's still contingent on us getting somebody to take the main role, which I don't believe JO to be capable of. Nor do I think Peja capable either. He's another complimentary player but needs someone else to be most effective. In a perfect world, this player would obviously be a guard.

Anybody with the possible exception of Granger should be fair game to dangle in the house cleaning effort.

owl
04-06-2006, 07:53 AM
Peck said...."Neither Walsh or Bird were at this game, which I haven't seen that in a long time. I don't know what that means or even if it means anything at all."


Probably means they have seen enough.

Good report Peck.


owl

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 08:17 AM
I was not at the game last night. No particular reason it was just a game I was not scheduled to be at.

But I am sick and tired of the booing Stephen Jackson receives. Does he deserve it? I don't know and I don't care. To those at the game who were booing I'd like to say. OK, OK, we get the point, you don't like Jax, we know that already, no move on to something else. It just isn't very original to boo Jax. And to single him out is unfair.

Jax cares about winning, he plays hurt, in fact he is having trouble running right now, to blame him and to boo him is very shortsighted, and I'm sick of it. It's like screaming at the newspaper boy because you hate the Indianapolis Star.

Does Jax make some stupid plays, yes, but we know that. Does he complain too much to the refs, Yes, but we've known that. To boo him now is so unoriginal. Ok, we get it, now just move on. Please. I'm starting to become a huge Jackson fan, so if that is what you want......
Jax played pretty well last night (zero turnovers). Ok enough of that, but really.

Peck, I often enjoy getting to the game very early to watch the pregame warmups, I just enjoy being around basketball I guess.


It is not about choosing sides in the Rick vs Tinsley debate or even the AJ vs Tinsley debate. Tinsley took his ball and went home last night. Isn't that really the cardinal sin. Isn't that really much worse than Jackson has ever done. Isn't that about as bad as it gets. I'm 100% sure what happened. Tinsley found out he wasn't starting so he went home, or maybe that was where DW and Bird were, trying to deal with Tinsley, I don't know and at this point I don't care.

Pacers didn't play well last night at all.

Kaufman
04-06-2006, 08:45 AM
I'm a little confused Peck...
On one hand you tell us
It was very obvious that Jamaal & A.J. were haveing an issue, I don't know what it was but it was obvious. but then you say
Don't read to much into the "waving off" because obviously I was not down there to hear what A.J. said.

It could have been "hey Jamaal after the game you wanna go bowling" & Jamaal just waved him off for all I know.

So what did you see that made you concerned that they were having a problem? Or are you just assuming that they were since JT was benched by RC?

Slick Pinkham
04-06-2006, 08:50 AM
I'm sure that the collection of investigative reporters at Indystar will investigate the Tinsley fake injury situation with typical bulldog-like tenacity.





;)

hoopsforlife
04-06-2006, 08:55 AM
If he could make spin move with a bad achilles heel, he is truly an extra ordinary man.

Those type injuries could "heel" by the next game or keep him out for the season. I wonder which it will be. :)

Kaufman
04-06-2006, 09:07 AM
Achilles injuries tend to be more of a chronic, long term type of injury. And one thing is for sure, if someone has an Achilles injury, if I'm their doctor, their foot is in ice 90% of the waking hours.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 09:38 AM
It is not about choosing sides in the Rick vs Tinsley debate or even the AJ vs Tinsley debate. Tinsley took his ball and went home last night. Isn't that really the cardinal sin. Isn't that really much worse than Jackson has ever done. Isn't that about as bad as it gets. I'm 100% sure what happened. Tinsley found out he wasn't starting so he went home, or maybe that was where DW and Bird were, trying to deal with Tinsley, I don't know and at this point I don't care.

Pacers didn't play well last night at all.


If you spent three years whith a boss who replaced you the first day he got there and tried replacing you at every single opportunity, you would eventually get fed up and go home too. No one cant take three years in a row of being treated like ****. Even Reggie got sick of Larry Brown and stopped playing hard. So before you ***** at Tins just because you dont like him remember Larry Browns last year here.

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 10:01 AM
If you spent three years whith a boss who replaced you the first day he got there and tried replacing you at every single opportunity, you would eventually get fed up and go home too. No one cant take three years in a row of being treated like ****. Even Reggie got sick of Larry Brown and stopped playing hard. So before you ***** at Tins just because you dont like him remember Larry Browns last year here.

I don't agree with you that Rick treated him like ****. Rick has tried to play Jamaal as much as possible this season, he's really tried and Rick has never stopped being very complimentary of Jamaal. Lasy season and this season there have been times when Rick has reinserted JT back into the starting lineup when he shouldn't have.


Edit: I never once saw Reggie stop playing hard, but I guess we can debate that, but one thing isn't debatable, Reggie never took his ball, and went home

Hicks
04-06-2006, 10:13 AM
I have gotten more and more respect for Jermaine O'Neal in this for the simple reason that he at no moment in time has even hinted to not support the coach, has not hinted about unhappiness, not biatched about his number of touches, his own stats, shown that he can pass with the best since Peja arrived (averaging more then 4 Ast since) has when he could not play helped other such as David in getting better and so on and so on.


I had totally overlooked this. Kudos to Jermaine for being more like Reggie instead of like Tinsley.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 10:16 AM
I had totally overlooked this. Kudos to Jermaine for being more like Reggie instead of like Tinsley.

What exactly has Tinsley said in the media about Rick? When did Jamaal refuse to play with certain Pacers again? Sorry my memory must be clouded by all the Jermaine demands.

Hicks
04-06-2006, 10:19 AM
Jax cares about winning, he plays hurt, in fact he is having trouble running right now, to blame him and to boo him is very shortsighted, and I'm sick of it. It's like screaming at the newspaper boy because you hate the Indianapolis Star.

:laugh: I'll have to try that some time. :laugh:


It is not about choosing sides in the Rick vs Tinsley debate or even the AJ vs Tinsley debate. Tinsley took his ball and went home last night. Isn't that really the cardinal sin. Isn't that really much worse than Jackson has ever done. Isn't that about as bad as it gets. I'm 100% sure what happened. Tinsley found out he wasn't starting so he went home, or maybe that was where DW and Bird were, trying to deal with Tinsley, I don't know and at this point I don't care.

Thank you, exactly. It's not about one or the other, though I'd choose the coach who means well over the player who is selfish. You just don't do what Tinsley did last night. There is a chain of command here. The best thing you can do is follow it because either the coach will eventually be seen as making the right call, or not, and he's fired for being exposed. This just hurts everyone on the team directly or indirectly.

I'm angry at Tinsley. Aside from a brief moment in the 2002 playoffs, I don't recall ever feeling angry at Jamaal before, but I am now. I've had it.

Hicks
04-06-2006, 10:20 AM
What exactly has Tinsley said in the media about Rick? When did Jamaal refuse to play with certain Pacers again? Sorry my memory must be clouded by all the Jermaine demands.

He refused to play with 11 of them last night.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 10:24 AM
He refused to play with 11 of them last night.

No he refused to play for one person who has tried to take him out of the starting lineup or not play him at all for the last 3 years.

able
04-06-2006, 10:28 AM
He refused to play with 11 of them last night.
Where does this come from ?

AFAIK he was TOLD not to come. not the other way around.

Hicks
04-06-2006, 10:42 AM
Where does this come from ?

AFAIK he was TOLD not to come. not the other way around.

If this was Rick's call, he'd have sat on the bench, he would have participated in the warmups, and he would have been the backup PG. Since none of these things happened, it is clearly Tinsley.

able
04-06-2006, 10:46 AM
Uhh according to Peck he was in the shootaround, so he did his warmup drill and according to Rick it was his (Rick's) intention NOT to play him

I can understand that words have been spoken that no one here has heard, and that he either said, fine then I'll leave, or that Rick said, "as far as I'm concerned you better stay away" but which of the two no one knows so I am not "crucifying" anyone yet, but as it looks to me it was Rick that told him not to bother.

Maybe what AJ was telling him (see Peck) (and he waved off) was not to feel to bad about it (being benched) or something like that?

Black and White are two outer parts adn in between there's a lot of grey.

sweabs
04-06-2006, 11:01 AM
As Peck noted, watching pre-game warmups is very interesting.

I did it for both games I attended, and it's funny because the exact same guys were doing the exact same stuff Peck mentioned.

Eddie Gill was the first one there, and the last one to finish (along with Granger). Saras was always there practicing on his shot. AJ has a very strict set of things he likes to do. I also picked up that Danny and Eddie are very good friends, and that Eddie just seems to get along with everyone really well.

Tinsley's warmups seemed kind of lax to me. The first game I went to, he took about 4 three pointers, then sat down with his little kid on the sidelines and gave him a basketball to play around with and left. The second game he practiced a bunch of threes, then sat down on the bench for about 15 minutes.

Hicks
04-06-2006, 11:03 AM
Uhh according to Peck he was in the shootaround, so he did his warmup drill and according to Rick it was his (Rick's) intention NOT to play him

I didn't think I needed to specify a FULL warmup; instead of shooting 3 pointers from the bench and then taking 12 shots and spinning around for a few minutes. But it doesn't matter; it's the least important part of my point.

As I understand it, Rick said it was his intention to start AJ, not take Tinsley completely out of the rotation, and I certainly doubt he wanted him not sitting with the team.



Maybe what AJ was telling him (see Peck) (and he waved off) was not to feel to bad about it (being benched) or something like that?

It could be. The way Peck described it at first made it sound more sinister than when he described it a second time.

McKeyFan
04-06-2006, 11:05 AM
1. Ed Gill does not miss in pre-game. He must burn up all of his magic at this time because he can't hit a shot during a game to save his life but in pre-game the man is a God. He & Danny were guarding each other & he was just raining threes down on Granger like he was Reggie.

Just to comment on another portion of your post, Peck, that didn't completely concern Tinsley:

I've always like Gill. I haven't taken his play, particularly his shooting, too seriously this year, since he's basically coming in at garbage time.

Someone can feel free to correct me, but I remember him last year being great from the perimeter. He hit many, many crucial shots at critical times in the game.

So I'm not surprised he looked that good in warmups.

brichard
04-06-2006, 11:07 AM
No he refused to play for one person who has tried to take him out of the starting lineup or not play him at all for the last 3 years.


Hmmm.... in spite of AJ's playing well in his absence, we see Rick bench AJ in favor of JT. He comes out in the media and says this is my starting lineup, the key being JT being re-inserted. How is that not supporting your player?

Except for his first year with Carlisle, JT has earned the starting job and has pretty much kept it. The only reason he has lost it as I recall is due to injury. And here recently, he has just played himself out of the job. Maybe it is b/c he doesn't have his legs under him, but now is no time to stand back idly and not shake some things up.

You'll have to remind me, other than his first year benched for Kenny Anderson, when Rick has oft pulled JT out of the starting lineup.

Jermaniac
04-06-2006, 11:10 AM
Peck no Odd Thoughts on the greatness of Jermaine O'Neal last night?

Slick Pinkham
04-06-2006, 11:24 AM
Ragnar,

Like Brichard said, I don't recall Rick ever benching JT for anything but an injury, ever since Tins re-emerged after being benched for Kenny Anderson.

Among players who have gotten a free pass from Rick, Tins is right up there just behind Jax.

Nice to see Rick responding to lack of focus and effort, for a change.

Frank Slade
04-06-2006, 11:33 AM
I'm sure that the collection of investigative reporters at Indystar will investigate the Tinsley fake injury situation with typical bulldog-like tenacity.





;)
:montieth: + :wells: = :spy: ?

Extra Credit: X +:kravitz: = :blahblah: + X

:teacher:

MagicRat
04-06-2006, 11:38 AM
I think he was distracted by Roaming Gnomes boo's from the upper deck. On a funny side note, he did get the evil eye from the people in front of us during the game. I'm sure they just loved it when he came down & set with us after the half.:)

Good Joe Fan would've pointed him out to an usher and had him removed.

Don't be a Bad Joe Fan........;)

Will Galen
04-06-2006, 11:42 AM
If you spent three years whith a boss who replaced you the first day he got there and tried replacing you at every single opportunity, you would eventually get fed up and go home too. No one cant take three years in a row of being treated like ****. Even Reggie got sick of Larry Brown and stopped playing hard. So before you ***** at Tins just because you dont like him remember Larry Browns last year here.

Unbelievable Ragnar!

Defending Tinsley is one thing, but I think you're going to far in excusing his perceived conduct. I've always hated the word apologist, but you are clearly in Tinsley apologist mode. You just said it was okay for a player to get mad and go home.

Raskolnikov
04-06-2006, 11:44 AM
Maybe there should be an official Jamaal Tinsley thread as well?

:innocent:

Frank Slade
04-06-2006, 12:11 PM
I think I have just realized that Elton Brand and Shaun Livingston represent everything that I wish JO *(Sorry Jermainiac) and Tins either could or would be..... :pray: :(

Brand just has that something extra, or maybe it's just a case of the Grass is always Greener syndrome.. but that is my take as of today at 12:14pm EDT.. :cool:

hoopsforlife
04-06-2006, 12:29 PM
Achilles injuries tend to be more of a chronic, long term type of injury. And one thing is for sure, if someone has an Achilles injury, if I'm their doctor, their foot is in ice 90% of the waking hours.

This is true normally, but we're talking about a Tinsachilleitis here. These can "heel" before the next game or take the rest of the year. Sometimes these only heal while playing for another team. But, I'm no doctor. :)

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 01:12 PM
Hmmm.... in spite of AJ's playing well in his absence, we see Rick bench AJ in favor of JT. He comes out in the media and says this is my starting lineup, the key being JT being re-inserted. How is that not supporting your player?

Except for his first year with Carlisle, JT has earned the starting job and has pretty much kept it. The only reason he has lost it as I recall is due to injury. And here recently, he has just played himself out of the job. Maybe it is b/c he doesn't have his legs under him, but now is no time to stand back idly and not shake some things up.

You'll have to remind me, other than his first year benched for Kenny Anderson, when Rick has oft pulled JT out of the starting lineup.

Your definition of playing well is clearly different than mine. He had some acceptable games. But we were not exactly tearing up the NBA. Yes we won some games when Peja first got here untill the rest of the league had the new lineup solved. Once that happened we went back to sucking.

Peck
04-06-2006, 01:45 PM
Your definition of playing well is clearly different than mine. He had some acceptable games. But we were not exactly tearing up the NBA. Yes we won some games when Peja first got here untill the rest of the league had the new lineup solved. Once that happened we went back to sucking.

I adamantly disagree with this statement.

The league did not have us figured out because there was nothing to figure out. All we were doing was executing simple plays.

We started to faulter the min. that Carlisle started to slowly implement the isolation plays more & more each game. Go back & read my thoughts on those games & you will see me complaining more & more each game about the status of our offense.

Also, once Carlisle stopped using the big lineup is when we totally tanked it.

Jamaal nor A.J. had anything to do with this IMO.

brichard
04-06-2006, 01:58 PM
Your definition of playing well is clearly different than mine. He had some acceptable games. But we were not exactly tearing up the NBA. Yes we won some games when Peja first got here untill the rest of the league had the new lineup solved. Once that happened we went back to sucking.

Well, since your not answering the question about the starting lineup, I'll assume you are retracting it. :cool:

AJ was improving as a starter when he was in. He had about 5 games in a row before the reinsertion of Tinsley where even his most ardent detractors were saying "Hey, he is playing pretty well." I think AJ is definitely a guy who plays better when he has confidence and he really started to have that going. He doesn't do the flashy stuff that Saras and JT do, and for that he seems to be maligned by the fans.

Is AJ as good as Jamaal? No. He just doesn't have the handle or vision that JT has. There is no question about it and I won't argue that. However, I do think he can be as good as if not better as a shooter and he is a stronger defender. But most importantly he isn't injured every 5 minutes and he is more consistent.

If you are going to disagree about what I term good play, than how praytell do you describe JT's play since he has been back in the lineup? I can certainly see that our record has been in the crapper, and although it isn't fair to put all of that at his feet, it certainly mitigates the "Tinsley is the difference maker" argument.

I agree with whomever said that "If AJ is your starter you have problems." He isn't an elite PG and I firmly acknowledge that. But right now with everything going on, I'll take my chances with him. With JT you have fallen in love with his talent, much like Artest apologists, but when you ask yourself what is best for this team in the long run... I'm not sure how JT fits in that equation.

Peck
04-06-2006, 02:02 PM
I don't understand why nobody believes me when I tell you that falsifying a medical report is a regular practice. I tell you guys every time. And if it happens in the NCAA environment which is MUCH MUCH more strict, it happens in the NBA. Its not uncommon for me to do this 2-3 times a week to hide or disguise some other reason a player is not playing. Its a ritual that is as old as the game in my opinion.

Thanks for the long and interesting insight on pregame, Peck. You can learn a lot about who likes one another by watching player interactions. I observed a situation this year where two players who were previously friends randomly stopped interacting very suddenly. I did some investigation and found out that the girlfriend of one of them was impregnated by the other player. Pregame/practice is always the time to see these kinds of problems.

PS - Peck, you emailed me recently and I replied back but never heard back from you. Was wondering if you got my reply, and what the outcome of the matter at hand was??


Oops, sorry I missed this part earlier.

Yes, I did get your p.m. back & it was a great help in defining the problem for her. She is off today to Dr. Sneed to have their initial consult & they have set up surgery for later this month. Needless to say it is the end of his baseball season before it even starts.

But thanks again for the info, we don't deal in those types of injury's very often so there was confusion over the severity as he is there on a baseball scholarship.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 02:09 PM
I adamantly disagree with this statement.

The league did not have us figured out because there was nothing to figure out. All we were doing was executing simple plays.

We started to faulter the min. that Carlisle started to slowly implement the isolation plays more & more each game. Go back & read my thoughts on those games & you will see me complaining more & more each game about the status of our offense.

Also, once Carlisle stopped using the big lineup is when we totally tanked it.

Jamaal nor A.J. had anything to do with this IMO.

I can see your point. Yes you are correct that is when we started going back to the ISO crap. Thats when Rick forgot that David playes best on the weak side of the ball and started trying to play him like Jermaine.

I do think the league had started to figure us out and would have started beating us on a more regular basis.

Brichard I believe these are the games you are reffering too. They must be because we had gone back to being .500 after this and that was before Jamaal came back. AJ was playing well enough that even I could see him as our BACKUP pg over Sarunas because Sarunas was not playing well. (of course I think this is mainly dueto Rick playing him out of position and favoring AJ over him but hey I am clearly in the minority on this one)

BTW lovely house easy to find thanks for letting Able stay with you.

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 02:14 PM
Good Joe Fan would've pointed him out to an usher and had him removed.

Don't be a Bad Joe Fan........;)



I can't stand that bad Joe fan and good Joe fan stuff. Anyone who's been to a game knows what I'm talking about

Peck
04-06-2006, 02:30 PM
I can't stand that bad Joe fan and good Joe fan stuff. Anyone who's been to a game knows what I'm talking about


The sad thing is that you look like good Joe fan & I look like Bad Joe fan.

It also mirrors us in the way we post. I fully expect to be hauled off by Shade & Hicks someday the way they take out bad Joe fan.;)

Suaveness
04-06-2006, 02:32 PM
Unbelievable Ragnar!

Defending Tinsley is one thing, but I think you're going to far in excusing his perceived conduct. I've always hated the word apologist, but you are clearly in Tinsley apologist mode. You just said it was okay for a player to get mad and go home.


This is what I think as well. As far as I'm concerned, Tinsley pouts way too much. And he did not deserve to start once he came back.

CableKC
04-06-2006, 02:36 PM
I'm sure that the collection of investigative reporters at Indystar will investigate the Tinsley fake injury situation with typical bulldog-like tenacity.
;)
If and when the article comes out by any of the Indy Sports reporters....they will reference an "unknown source"....and I betcha that source "unknowingly" is none other then Peck.

brichard
04-06-2006, 05:05 PM
BTW lovely house easy to find thanks for letting Able stay with you.

Thank you very much. It was my pleasure to host our friend able. Really my part was very easy. I was driving home from Pizza King anyway, so I was happy to have a passeneger. And after that I just went about my normal routine. You guys who did the driving etc. really made far more effort and I commend each of you for that.

Peck
04-06-2006, 05:19 PM
I didn't think I needed to specify a FULL warmup; instead of shooting 3 pointers from the bench and then taking 12 shots and spinning around for a few minutes. But it doesn't matter; it's the least important part of my point.

As I understand it, Rick said it was his intention to start AJ, not take Tinsley completely out of the rotation, and I certainly doubt he wanted him not sitting with the team.



It could be. The way Peck described it at first made it sound more sinister than when he described it a second time.


Don't read to little into what I wrote either. I said what I said this morning because I know someone would say that I didn't hear what A.J. said, which is true.

But it was still very obvious that Jamaal was disgusted with whatever was going on & gave A.J. the "Frenchman" wave off (to quote Hank Hill).

Mr.ThunderMakeR
04-06-2006, 10:41 PM
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/1589/screwyouguys5fm.jpg

joles519
04-07-2006, 05:36 PM
For the Suns game last week, I got to the game early enough for the shoot around also. Eddie and Danny both worked extensively during the shoot around. (After a different game, we also saw Eddie working in the practice gym.) Danny practiced a ton of 3s including almost to half court (and 1 with 2 or 3 guys guarding him- which he made). Saras actually did quite a bit of work also. Many of the players were not out there for very long or not at all. Jamaal worked quite a bit but he sat on the bench randomly.

Eddie, Danny, and Freddie all spent quite a bit of time signing autographs. Jamaal signed a few. AJ went out a different way (to avoid signing autographs?).

Steve Nash had a long, drawn out routine that he did. He very rarely missed anything.


I saw a story on Pacers TV about AJ, Scot, and David dancing so I had to keep an eye out for it. The little dance fest is hysterical.

Unclebuck, I completely agree with you about the Jack booing situation. The amount of booing for Jack and anyone else at the Suns game was absolutely ridiculous.