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View Full Version : Is there anyone left who isn't absolutely sick of Tinsley's injuries?



Hicks
04-05-2006, 07:27 PM
Yes, he's out tonight. Again.

New injury. Achilles.

I'm done with him. Trade him this summer, please, PTB.

Jermaniac
04-05-2006, 07:29 PM
I dont want him starting no more, its just stupid. He is out every 5 days, how is our team supposed to get some chemistry when we keep starting AJ back and forth every week. Keep AJ the starter and bring Tins off the bench.

Big Smooth
04-05-2006, 07:33 PM
Yes, he's out tonight. Again.

New injury. Achilles.

I'm done with him. Trade him this summer, please, PTB.

Ouch!!!!!!!! Your post just caused me to hyperextend my pinkie. Can't post again for 5 days. :(

Shade
04-05-2006, 07:35 PM
I agree, Hicks. I was still on Tins' bandwagon at the forum party, since he's such an amazing player when he's not injured. Unfortunately, that's just far too infrequent.

We need to update our starting 1 and 2 spots BADLY.

Hicks
04-05-2006, 07:37 PM
I don't see him on the bench, either. Now that could easily be because I just didn't see him, but I'd appreciate others chiming in to confirm/deny what I think I see. How does he not even sit on the bench when it's not an illness?

317Kim
04-05-2006, 07:39 PM
I can't deal with him anymore. Sorry Tins. :wave:

Jermaniac
04-05-2006, 07:39 PM
I dont think he is hurt at all. I bet that he is mad Rick pulled him from the game in the 4th. But thats just what I think.

CableKC
04-05-2006, 07:42 PM
I don't see him on the bench, either. Now that could easily be because I just didn't see him, but I'd appreciate others chiming in to confirm/deny what I think I see. How does he not even sit on the bench when it's not an illness?
Whether he starts or is coming off the bench....if we are to believe that he is truly injured....then it wouldn't make any difference....he wouldn't be playing at all.

To many of you....Sarunas may suck....but at least he is able to play.

Also....I don't believe that there is an achilles injury.....I really think that something else is going on.

Shade
04-05-2006, 07:43 PM
I dont think he is hurt at all. I bet that he is mad Rick pulled him from the game in the 4th. But thats just what I think.

Yeah, I seriously doubt it's an injury, but the "sinus" excuse was overdone, and we already know all too well about "migraines."

SoupIsGood
04-05-2006, 07:48 PM
I'm sick of Tinsley's injuries, sick of Jack's stupidty, sick of Fred's 'No-Look-Turnover,' sick of the defense that our point guards don't play, sick of our turnover-proneness, sick of JO not boxing out, sick of Peja playing SF instead of Danny, sick of Jeff Foster refusing to don a headband, sick of a lot of things.

Shade
04-05-2006, 07:49 PM
The avatar says it all. :disappoin

Lord Helmet
04-05-2006, 07:49 PM
Yeah, I said I was done with him in the game thread.

Trade him ASAP.

I don't even want him coming off the bench this year, AJ and Sarunas.

Even though I would have preferred an AJ-Tinsley PG rotation.

Jaydawg2270
04-05-2006, 07:49 PM
Tinsley is my favorite player but these injuries are starting to get to me, maybe he needs to get a new start in his career

Hicks
04-05-2006, 07:50 PM
Yeah, I seriously doubt it's an injury, but the "sinus" excuse was overdone, and we already know all too well about "migraines."

Your avatar is hilarious. :laugh:

CableKC
04-05-2006, 08:02 PM
Your avatar is hilarious. :laugh:
Yeah....Tinsley...the Glass Man.

Aw Heck
04-05-2006, 08:04 PM
Yeah, I think Tinsley was just told to stay home. And I'm fine with that. The AJ/Saras combo worked well when Tinsley was out before.

But what team would be dumb enough to trade for Tinsley and give up anything worthwhile?

Unclebuck
04-05-2006, 08:17 PM
Great thread title Hicks.

When I heard about this right before the game I just had to laugh. Interestingly though Al Albert said that Rick was going to start AJ anyway.

Amazingly some of you are just now "done with him"

Is Tinsley even on the bench

owl
04-05-2006, 08:17 PM
Awheck said...."But what team would be dumb enough to trade for Tinsley and give up anything worthwhile?"


Trade him for a bag of chips if you have to but trade him.
Trade him for a second rounder to a team under the cap.
Trade him for a resigned Mike James but trade him.


owl

ChicagoJ
04-05-2006, 08:28 PM
Great thread title Hicks.

When I heard about this right before the game I just had to laugh. Interestingly though Al Albert said that Rick was going to start AJ anyway.

Amazingly some of you are just now "done with him"

Is Tinsley even on the bench

:potkettle:

Shade
04-05-2006, 08:29 PM
:potkettle:

PwN3D

Unclebuck
04-05-2006, 08:30 PM
:potkettle:



hehehehe

Some people are subborn

indytoad
04-05-2006, 09:17 PM
The only problem is now, who is going to take him? He's making way too much money for a useless player.

IndyToad
Playing with confidence

Ragnar
04-05-2006, 09:24 PM
This is not an injury this is an argument between Rick and Jamaal who is probably fed up with Rick. But yes very amusing take my thread title and re arange it so it makes fun of my favorite player.

I said at the begining of the season that if Tinsley is injured for the playoffs then I also want him traded. I still will want Rick gone but my position has not changed on Jamaal.

Your a fool if you think that being slightly less inept than the Raptors without Jamaal means we are better off witout him.

Anthem
04-05-2006, 09:31 PM
So if he's not on the bench, is the consensus that he's not injured? Did Carlisle tell him to stay home?

skyfire
04-05-2006, 09:35 PM
Hopefully Danny Ainge isn't absolutely sick of Tinsley's injuries.

Work a Delonte West for Tinsley trade Larry!

Aw Heck
04-05-2006, 09:36 PM
So if he's not on the bench, is the consensus that he's not injured? Did Carlisle tell him to stay home?
That's what I'm thinking. As far as I know, having an achilles injury won't prevent you from SITTING on the bench and supporting your team. I'm guessing it's another "migraine" situation.

Unclebuck
04-05-2006, 09:39 PM
I had to just laugh when I heard mark Boyle on the postgame show talk about Tinsley. he was talking about games missed and games played then he said this is the 6th different malady this season. Surprised he could say it with a straight face

Evan_The_Dude
04-05-2006, 09:50 PM
I had to just laugh when I heard mark Boyle on the postgame show talk about Tinsley. he was talking about games missed and games played then he said this is the 6th different malady this season. Surprised he could say it with a straight face

Haha I got a nice chuckle out of that too.

#31
04-05-2006, 09:53 PM
The avatar says it all. :disappoin

<------------- WORD! :D

Anthem
04-05-2006, 09:59 PM
So is Tinsley tradable?

If Baron Davis is, then surely Tinsley is.

Unclebuck
04-05-2006, 10:02 PM
Looking at his contract, I don't think he's tradable.

2006 - 5.4 - this season
2007 - 5.9
2008 - 6.3
2009 - 6.8
2010 - 7.2
2011 - 7.5

Doug
04-05-2006, 10:05 PM
I had to just laugh when I heard mark Boyle on the postgame show talk about Tinsley. he was talking about games missed and games played then he said this is the 6th different malady this season. Surprised he could say it with a straight face

I was just going to say...

"How could be you sick of Tinsley's injuries? I mean, they're different every time..."

Tim
04-05-2006, 10:05 PM
I am no more sick of of his injuries than Scot Pollard or Fred Jones.

I just don't want him starting. Consistency is important element that Jamaal can't deliver, so the team should not put themselves in a position to depend on him so much, meaning play AJ and Cabbage.

At this point I wouldn't mind benching Tinsley for a bit, AJ seems to play better when he doesn't have to think about Tinsley.

As far as getting rid of Tisnley haha good luck, I don't think Isiah is in a position to help us out here, unless you all are willing to take Starbury.

Los Angeles
04-05-2006, 10:08 PM
Looking at his contract, I don't think he's tradable.

2006 - 5.4 - this season
2007 - 5.9
2008 - 6.3
2009 - 6.8
2010 - 7.2
2011 - 7.5
He was tradable this year in a package. Many posters said that it wouldn't make economic sense to get half value for his money due to his base year status. What does everybody say about that now?

Shade
04-05-2006, 10:20 PM
I think the real question is: would Tinsley's "injuries" significantly decrease with a new coach?

grace
04-05-2006, 10:29 PM
I'm not as sick of anyone's injuries as I am sick of people :censored: about it.

Anthem
04-05-2006, 11:01 PM
He was tradable this year in a package. Many posters said that it wouldn't make economic sense to get half value for his money due to his base year status. What does everybody say about that now?
I proposed, on multiple occasions, trading Tinsley to Atlanta. Back when his trade value was higher, and Atlanta was desperate for a PG, I figured we could trade him for one of their swingmen (preferably Childress).

Los Angeles
04-05-2006, 11:05 PM
I proposed, on multiple occasions, trading Tinsley to Atlanta. Back when his trade value was higher, and Atlanta was desperate for a PG, I figured we could trade him for one of their swingmen (preferably Childress).
Put the names of everyone who makes 3 million dollars on a wall, put on a blindfold and throw a dart.

It's the only way to know that you'll get a player that will be better for this team than Tinsley. :D

Diamond Dave
04-05-2006, 11:29 PM
Yes, he's out tonight. Again.

New injury. Achilles.

I'm done with him. Trade him this summer, please, PTB.

Nope, I'm sick of his pouting and the TPTB's lying.

Tinsley was out in full warm up gear 45 minutes before tip-off. After relaxing on the bench watching the other pg's warm up (looking very disgruntled I might add, including waving AJ off as he approached Jamaal to talk) he finally got up and proceeded to warm up.

He then left the floor toward the lockeroom never to be seen again.

According to Roaming Gnome, who regularly joins Peck and I in our seats, Mark Boyle reported on the pre-game show that he was going to be benched when he was asked by Kevin Lee what Jamaal's status was.

Now we're hearing it was an achilles. :unimpress

This guy obviously has several problems both physically and emotionally. It is equally as vital that we remove him this summer as it is S. Jax. If not more. :-o

Also, I know Mike James had a great game tonight but, I'm not sold. He seemed to be forcing and playing outside the team when they were making their run to take the lead. I don't care if he would work with Carlisle. Carlisle shouldn't be here next year anyways, so I don't want a shoot first pg.

But it will be an absolute travesty if Tinsley comes back and starts. If this happens, then I truly believe that Carlisle cannot have the team's best interests in mind. He would clearly just be assigning positions on talent alone and that just won't work for this team.

Overall, a pretty ugly win. Check that, a damn ugly win. We almost choked it away against a Boshless Raptor team.

CFH was empty tonight. It was like a pre-season game. In addition to that the corporate attendees in front of us tonight did not like Peck, Gnome, and I being critical of the team. One of them gave Gnome a Mudasa like stare when he booed S. Jax when he came in the game. :laugh: Rah-Rah forever.

Jermaniac
04-05-2006, 11:35 PM
Nope, I'm sick of his pouting and the TPTB's lying.

Tinsley was out in full warm up gear 45 minutes before tip-off. After relaxing on the bench watching the other pg's warm up (looking very disgruntled I might add, including waving AJ off as he approached Jamaal to talk) he finally got up and proceeded to warm up.

He then left the floor toward the lockeroom never to be seen again.

According to Roaming Gnome, who regularly joins Peck and I in our seats, Mark Boyle reported on the pre-game show that he was going to be benched when he was asked by Kevin Lee what Jamaal's status was.

Now we're hearing it was an achilles. :unimpress

Thats what I thought it was. And even if it was an injury and he couldnt play tonight. He could have easily put on his suit and sat with the team to watch the game.

ChicagoJ
04-05-2006, 11:40 PM
If this is a growing fued between Tinsley and Rick; I want Tinsley.

If I was Rick's PG, and he wouldn't let me call plays or showed no trust in me, I wouldn't really want to play for him either.

Tinsley's play has won far more games for the Pacers over the past three seasons than Rick's coaching.

Shade
04-05-2006, 11:43 PM
If this is a growing fued between Tinsley and Rick; I want Tinsley.

If I was Rick's PG, and he wouldn't let me call plays or showed no trust in me, I wouldn't really want to play for him either.

Tinsley's play has won far more games for the Pacers over the past three seasons than Rick's coaching.

What coach would you want to replace Rick? Who would let Tinsley run the team?

Evan_The_Dude
04-05-2006, 11:44 PM
So is Tinsley tradable?

If Baron Davis is, then surely Tinsley is.

Baron Davis was an All-Star.

SoupIsGood
04-05-2006, 11:44 PM
Who would let Tinsley run the team?

And who would run the team for the other half a season?

Unclebuck
04-05-2006, 11:48 PM
If this is a growing fued between Tinsley and Rick; I want Tinsley.




You have to be kidding. I don't believe you really mean that

ChicagoJ
04-05-2006, 11:48 PM
What coach would you want to replace Rick? Who would let Tinsley run the team?

Me!!

I kid, I kid...

I've reached the conclusion that Rick would make a great college coach, but his stock as an NBA coach is declining rapidly.

He's a system coach, and nothing more. He needs to learn how to recruit high school kids that fit into his system. He's horrible at adjusting to players that don't fit into his "system."

Jermaniac
04-05-2006, 11:50 PM
Rick cant coach in College, 30 year old vets are not allowed to play college basketball. Rick would probably try to get AJ to come and start at PG for him.

Evan_The_Dude
04-05-2006, 11:50 PM
If this is a growing fued between Tinsley and Rick; I want Tinsley.

If I was Rick's PG, and he wouldn't let me call plays or showed no trust in me, I wouldn't really want to play for him either.

Tinsley's play has won far more games for the Pacers over the past three seasons than Rick's coaching.

If that's the situation (and it likely is), Tinsley needs to go. The coach is the coach for a reason. He knows good and damn well that his play is vital to this teams success. If he wants to put him and his feud with Carlisle before the other 11 guys on this roster in the middle of a playoff race, then he needs to GTFO. If he wants to make coaching decisions, then he needs to retire and work his way into coaching.

EDIT: I still think Carlisle should go, but not for this situation.

ChicagoJ
04-05-2006, 11:51 PM
You have to be kidding. I don't believe you really mean that

C'mon, you sat next to me in January where I said I still thought Tinsley was this teams best #2 option and that I was ready for Rick to move along.

This isn't a stretch.

I'm done with Rick, and at this point about the only thing he can do is cause further decays in team chemistry.

Jermaniac
04-05-2006, 11:51 PM
I dont care who Rick has a fued with, he needs to be fired.

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 12:04 AM
C'mon, you sat next to me in January where I said I still thought Tinsley was this teams best #2 option and that I was ready for Rick to move along.

This isn't a stretch.

I'm done with Rick, and at this point about the only thing he can do is cause further decays in team chemistry.



OK, but you actually want to keep Jamaal. I still find that hard to believe. Even if Rick is an idiot, and is 100% wrong, do you really want a player who outright disrespects the coach like JT does.

Lord Helmet
04-06-2006, 12:08 AM
Wow, after reading Diamond Dave's post.

Although, I'm not surprised. I want him gone. I'd rather have Jackson than him at this point. Tinsley's pouting is pathetic and his play at times is, too.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 12:12 AM
OK, but you actually want to keep Jamaal. I still find that hard to believe. Even if Rick is an idiot, and is 100% wrong, do you really want a player who outright disrespects the coach like JT does.

:potkettle:

Sorry, the irony is killing me here.

I've never disagreed with the contents of Ron's complaints about Rick.

Do we really know JT is outright disrepectful?

It may be true, but this seems more like a one-on-one legit argument and not mutiny.

Suaveness
04-06-2006, 12:19 AM
If this is a growing fued between Tinsley and Rick; I want Tinsley.

If I was Rick's PG, and he wouldn't let me call plays or showed no trust in me, I wouldn't really want to play for him either.

Tinsley's play has won far more games for the Pacers over the past three seasons than Rick's coaching.

You want a PG that plays only half a year?

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 12:29 AM
If you can't read "if" then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm addressing the rumors of a fued between PG and coach.

Will Galen
04-06-2006, 01:05 AM
Nope, I'm sick of his pouting and the TPTB's lying.



TPTB are in a business where they feel they have to lie. They don't want potential trade parners knowing how bad certain of our players are.

Personally I would rather they tell the truth or just start saying such and such player is not available and never give a reason why.

Lithfan
04-06-2006, 03:55 AM
If this is a growing fued between Tinsley and Rick; I want Tinsley.

If I was Rick's PG, and he wouldn't let me call plays or showed no trust in me, I wouldn't really want to play for him either.

Tinsley's play has won far more games for the Pacers over the past three seasons than Rick's coaching.

But when I told the same about Saras you said he should shut up and play didn't you?

Bball
04-06-2006, 04:16 AM
Can I start believing even more that Tinsley is the "bad egg" that Reggie seemingly referred to back at the start of the season?

I'm reading in today's Star that Carlisle says he planned to make the change and bring Tinsley off the bench and the Achilles injury played no factor in that decision.

-Bball

Bball
04-06-2006, 04:55 AM
Do we really know JT is outright disrepectful?



I think we do...
I suppose it depends on someone's definition of disrespectful. I've seen what I consider disrespectful behavior towards other players and towards Kevin O Neil. I think most would agree with my definition in those cases altho some like to argue I misinterpreted the situation or didn't see what I saw.

I also think blowing off the shootaround/warmups could be viewed as disrespectful to the team and the coach. Sitting and being seemingly disinterested and taking shots from his seat isn't exactly a motivated workout.

What exactly happened in LA at the Clippers game when Carlisle wanted a timeout at the end? Was that disrepectful of the coach?

People keep joking about the Knicks being our main hope of taking Tinsley off our hands... Let's not forget that Isiah wanted Tinsley gone from the Pacers. Supposedly, he was Isiah's find in the draft and yet Isiah was ready to move on... for some reason.... And apparently it was convincing enough for JO to go along with it and make that demand of management.


-Bball

Arcadian
04-06-2006, 05:16 AM
At this point I am fairly ambiviliant about who stays and who goes so long as someone goes.

As far as Tins goes I believe that he is a talented enough player at an important enough position where I can understand managment rolling the dice with him under a new coach.

IF Rick stays I say we should bring in the best shooter and defender we can to play pg because that is what Rick wants. Obviously Rick isn't going to use a pg outside of this mode correctly.

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 08:57 AM
Jay. The coach told him he wasn't starting, so JT said he couldn't play. Do we need to know anymore

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 09:41 AM
Right now I cant wait untill they trade Jamaal to any other team in the league and he burns the Pacers for the rest of his life. As long as Rick is the coach we will NEVER win a title. He miss uses his players and does not understand talent when it stares him in the face.

Hicks
04-06-2006, 09:44 AM
If this is a growing fued between Tinsley and Rick; I want Tinsley.

If I was Rick's PG, and he wouldn't let me call plays or showed no trust in me, I wouldn't really want to play for him either.

Tinsley's play has won far more games for the Pacers over the past three seasons than Rick's coaching.

I take Carlisle. And I'm almost ready to see him leave. I look down on players who do what Tinsley is doing. Very much so. I don't care the reason, you follow the chain of command in the NBA. Take from the book of Reggie and suck it up instead of being selfish and pouty.

Hicks
04-06-2006, 09:51 AM
Right now I cant wait untill they trade Jamaal to any other team in the league and he burns the Pacers for the rest of his life. As long as Rick is the coach we will NEVER win a title. He miss uses his players and does not understand talent when it stares him in the face.

You sound like a Sarunas fanboy. Do you not see that?

Meanwhile, Jay, you're right, you DO sound like Unclebuck and Artest. THINK ABOUT THAT.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 10:01 AM
Every time Tinsley is called upon to play he is ready to play.

I don't like this situation at all, but c'mon, these guys are humans and have careers, too. Who of you would be happy to take a demotion, or to be removed from a key project, at work. Especially if it was for someone who was clearly inferior. If it happened to one of us, there would likely be a thread about it in the shout box.

UB, do we know Tinsley said he couldn't play, or are we just speculating?

I think its a reasonable conclusion - but I don't think its as factual as you and bball would make it sound.

Lithfan, I've thought the relationship between Tinsley and Rick has been strained for a long time. Its clear that Rick's lack of trust in Tinsley prompts Tinsley to try to do "too much" to earn his coach's trust. Which turns into the streetball that none of us like. But Tinsley has always ready to play when called on, and its no secret that when Tinsley gets benched his level of play rises... unlike Saras and AJ.

That's a big difference.

Saras' little two-week vacation seems to be paying off in another way - he seems to have gotten his legs back and his shot looks much better. We all assumed, since he was older, that the rookie wall wouldn't bother him as much. But it seems Danny has responded to the rookie wall far better than Saras did.

All I'm saying (although you guys except Hicks seem to keep extrapolating from it while avoiding this point):

If there is anything about Tinsley's perceived attitude problem that is resulting from his detiorating relationship with Carlisle, then IMO the coach should go and not the player.

I'd rather see Tinsley with a new coach next season (or, frankly, for the next eight games and then the playoffs) than Rick with a new PG.

I'd still prefer seven new guards AND a new coach. But that's probably too much to ask for.

And if Bird fired Rick today, named himself coach, and declared Saras to be the starter with Tinsley as the backup, I'd be okay with that, too. Because, of course, I know that Tinsley would earn back his starting spot over Saras within a few games anyway.

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 10:07 AM
Every time Tinsley is called upon to play he is ready to play.





What? What?.

Every time he is called upon to play he is ready to play. (Are you talking about Stephen Jackson)

Jay I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 10:11 AM
You sound like a Sarunas fanboy. Do you not see that?

Meanwhile, Jay, you're right, you DO sound like Unclebuck and Artest. THINK ABOUT THAT.

Big difference Sarunas has not proven that he is the best pg on the team. Jamaal has. This group of Pacers have acomplished much without Sarunas and nothing without Jamaal. They could not even get past the Celtics without Jamaal coming back and limping through 4 games. If they could have maybe Jamaal would have been healthy for the Detroit series.

I could almost understand if he had chosen Sarunas over Tinsley and made Tinsley the backup. But to chose AJ over Tinsley AND Sarunas should be enough for even the Tinsley haters to want Rick fired TODAY

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 10:12 AM
You sound like a Sarunas fanboy. Do you not see that?

Meanwhile, Jay, you're right, you DO sound like Unclebuck and Artest. THINK ABOUT THAT.

I've understood UB's devotion to Mr. Cancer. Disagree, but understood.

I generally got over that type of personal attachment to a player when the Rifleman was traded. Just like, I suspect, you won't get as attached to a player following the Brad Miller whatever-we-want-to-call-it.

I actually feel like I'm playing the role of Anthem. I'm sick of seeing Tinsley get kicked when he's down. Especially by the johnny-come-latelys who haven't really seen what Tinsley can do when he's healthy. And UncleBuck is playing the role of Jay, asking what more people need to see.

I would need to see Tinsley's reaction and demeenor with a new coach before I was ready to toss out the baby with the bathwater.

Its like its April Fool's week around here.

:D

I don't have a problem if Tinsley is sent packing next season. I do have a problem if TPTB think we've got Tinsley's replacement currently on the roster. With AJ or Saras at the point, we're a 30-34 win team at best.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 10:19 AM
What? What?.

Every time he is called upon to play he is ready to play. (Are you talking about Stephen Jackson)

Jay I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Every time Tinsley has been benched, he's quickly re-earned his starting spot when allowed to play.

While all the doubters assumed he'd be pouting.

Think back to the discussion we had in November/ December '03 when KA and AJ were getting all the PG minutes. Tinsley sat for a month, and in one second-half appearance (for Mike Brown, who is missed far more than we admit although we do say it all the time) he re-established his role on the team.

What would you have him do differently in that situation. Of course he didn't look happy on the bench. We'd be even more pissed off if he sat on the bench with a smile on his face, content to collect his paycheck. No, he wants to play and gets upset when he's denied that opportunity for an inferior player.

Its not like Saras getting benched in favor of better players (Tins, AJ) and then pouting about not having room for three PGs. He needed his morning cup of STFU.

Tinsley was losing his spot to Mr. 8-second violation.

Let's turn the tables, suppose hypothetically that Ron was getting benched for James Jones. Now, that would be truly an ugly situation. But that's a reasonable comparison to what is happening here.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 10:23 AM
Let's turn the tables, suppose hypothetically that Ron was getting benched for James Jones. Now, that would be truly an ugly situation. But that's a reasonable comparison to what is happening here.

Not bad but James Jones has proven that other NBA teams would pay him to play for them. AJ is in the Travis Best portion of his career. When he is not on the Pacers some other team will give him a shot then he will be in Russia.

It would be more like Jermaine being benched for Litton Johnson.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 10:24 AM
I don't like AJ but he's not in the same "level-9" category of awful as Travis was/ is.

Let's not go overboard.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 10:31 AM
I don't like AJ but he's not in the same "level-9" category of awful as Travis was/ is.

Let's not go overboard.

I will stipulate that he is slightly better than Travis. New Jersey was not about to ask him back and I am pretty sure than any non Rick Carlisle team in the NBA would either be playing him as a backup 2 or not at all.

Los Angeles
04-06-2006, 10:36 AM
Talk about irony.

Jay, you were easily the most vocal opponent of Ron Artest. You called him a cancer dozens of times (at least).

How in the world can you forgive someone who refuses to play? I've never forgiven Pippen for refusing to go back into the game way back when (and that was a single play). I hated the Bulls, and I'm still not over it.

Tinsley refusing to sit his *** down with the team is unforgivable. If I were in charge, I would be looking at the legal options of cancelling his contract.

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 10:40 AM
Every time Tinsley has been benched, he's quickly re-earned his starting spot when allowed to play.

While all the doubters assumed he'd be pouting.

Think back to the discussion we had in November/ December '03 when KA and AJ were getting all the PG minutes. Tinsley sat for a month, and in one second-half appearance (for Mike Brown, who is missed far more than we admit although we do say it all the time) he re-established his role on the team.

What would you have him do differently in that situation. Of course he didn't look happy on the bench. We'd be even more pissed off if he sat on the bench with a smile on his face, content to collect his paycheck. No, he wants to play and gets upset when he's denied that opportunity for an inferior player.




Well that was two seasons ago even though it seems like about 5 years ago.

Except in December 2003, Tinsley has always been given the starting spot, he hasn't earned it, and I suspect that if Rick were honest he now regrets trying to play Tinsley so much. That might be one reason why he's lost the team. Players I'm sure have taken sides some wanting AJ and some wanting Tinsley

Doug
04-06-2006, 10:43 AM
Let's turn the tables, suppose hypothetically that Ron was getting benched for James Jones. Now, that would be truly an ugly situation. But that's a reasonable comparison to what is happening here.

So, you're saying that Tinsley is a cancer that was benched for "conduct detrimental"? That he's been an ongoing distruption to the team? And that we should trade him as soon as possible or at least cut him outright to minimize the damage he could possible do?

Just kiddin' you.

brichard
04-06-2006, 10:45 AM
In spite of what you think of him, JT IMHO is gone.

What is the one position Larry said we needed to upgrade when he came to his management position? Point guard.

Who went out and found a Euro PG in the offseason? Larry.

Once you combine his injuries, percieved attitude problem, and inconsistent play... who do you think is out with Indiana? Jamaal Tinsley.

Ralph Snart
04-06-2006, 10:51 AM
On a slightly different tangent, what's with Tinsley and the diving? During the Atlanta game, he ran into someone and fell down like someone shot him, leaving Ben Gordon open for a 3.

This season, and part of last he seems to take dives a lot more to draw fouls. I can understand some of the gamemanship involved, but why is he risking the defensive collapse/offensive possesion on a call that may not come?

Last year, we had a whole slew of games where Tinsley carried the team. Where is that guy?

Eraser
04-06-2006, 11:13 AM
Me!!

I kid, I kid...

I've reached the conclusion that Rick would make a great college coach, but his stock as an NBA coach is declining rapidly.

He's a system coach, and nothing more. He needs to learn how to recruit high school kids that fit into his system. He's horrible at adjusting to players that don't fit into his "system."

Exactly right!

Eraser
04-06-2006, 11:26 AM
Big difference Sarunas has not proven that he is the best pg on the team. Jamaal has. This group of Pacers have acomplished much without Sarunas and nothing without Jamaal. They could not even get past the Celtics without Jamaal coming back and limping through 4 games. If they could have maybe Jamaal would have been healthy for the Detroit series.

I could almost understand if he had chosen Sarunas over Tinsley and made Tinsley the backup. But to chose AJ over Tinsley AND Sarunas should be enough for even the Tinsley haters to want Rick fired TODAY


Again, another great post, Ragnar. It's like we're speaking the same language and no one else can understand, except for Jay. Watching AJ run the point is like watching paint dry. It's not basketball the way it was meant to be played.

Why Rick insists on using AJ at point is beyond me. I would use Gill before I'd use AJ (at point, he's not a bad 2nd string SG).

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 01:16 PM
On a slightly different tangent, what's with Tinsley and the diving? During the Atlanta game, he ran into someone and fell down like someone shot him, leaving Ben Gordon open for a 3.

This season, and part of last he seems to take dives a lot more to draw fouls. I can understand some of the gamemanship involved, but why is he risking the defensive collapse/offensive possesion on a call that may not come?

Last year, we had a whole slew of games where Tinsley carried the team. Where is that guy?

I hate the flopping Tinsley as much if not more than anyone else on this team. he needs a coach who he can respect to take him aside and tell him to cut that out.

As far as the Jamaal of last year according to the Tinsley haters he never existed he went downhill since his first season so clearly he could not have been carrying the Pacers on his own like that. Not to mention the first two games against the Heat this year.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 01:18 PM
Well that was two seasons ago even though it seems like about 5 years ago.

Except in December 2003, Tinsley has always been given the starting spot, he hasn't earned it, and I suspect that if Rick were honest he now regrets trying to play Tinsley so much. That might be one reason why he's lost the team. Players I'm sure have taken sides some wanting AJ and some wanting Tinsley

UB you have completely ignored how many times Tinsley got out team a lead only to be taken out and watch AJ throw away the game. Or how many times Jamaal has been yanked for making a pass to someone who was not ready only to watch AJ pass it directly to the other team for a fast break several times in a row. That is treating your pg like crap.

Slick Pinkham
04-06-2006, 01:28 PM
UB you have completely ignored how many times Tinsley got out team a lead only to be taken out and watch AJ throw away the game. Or how many times Jamaal has been yanked for making a pass to someone who was not ready only to watch AJ pass it directly to the other team for a fast break several times in a row. That is treating your pg like crap.

To my knowledge this has never happened.

Maybe a video game you played?

Rick is finally benching somebody for being a lazy pouting whiner. About time.

Bball
04-06-2006, 01:53 PM
The strongest defense of Tinsley seems to center around it being Carlisle's fault and he's driven Tinsley to this point. BUT... what about my point about Isiah giving up on Tinsley? I realize it's Isiah but then again, Tinsley burned his bridges with Isiah??? The man who championed him early on...?

-Bball

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 02:12 PM
To my knowledge this has never happened.

Maybe a video game you played?

Rick is finally benching somebody for being a lazy pouting whiner. About time.

So you have not watched the games? Your telling me you have never seen Tinsley yanked after a turnover (Chigao being the most recent) only to watch AJ literaly pass the ball directly to the other team (Chicago being the most recent example of him doing this withing a minutes of being put in for Jamaal in Toronto he did this after Sarunas was yanked for a turnover.)

Peck
04-06-2006, 02:25 PM
To the Jamaal is God crowd let me ask you something.

Ok, let's assume we fire the coach. Must the next coach tailor their system to Jamaal? If that is so, how do you guarantee that Jamaal plays more than 50 games next season? Because if he doesn't then we will have to have two entirely differant types of offensive sets for when he is in & when he is not.

Also, what if the next coach is a defensive minded ball control coach as well? Will you then demand they fire him as well?

Now to the Carlisle can do no wrong crowd.

Why did he wait till the end of the season to start taking control of this team? Why did he allow all of the barking at refs. & bad play from so many differant players and now that the season is almost over he decides to take a stand? Why did he, for no obvious reason other than on paper they are better players, choose to just set his lineup about 3 weeks ago when each of the injured players were still trying to work their way back into shap?

Also, why does he try & run isolation plays when he has a team that is built for motion? Additionally why does he not trust his players to call plays on the floor every now & then.


I say a Pox on both of their houses. If Bird fired Carlisle right now & suspended Jamaal for the rest of the season it wouldn't bother me at all.

Also, Ragnar buddy your starting to make me look rational when talking about Dale.;)

Jay, I see what you are saying to U.B. & it is funny how he is willing to jettison off Jamaal but would have defended Ron to the death.

However, aren't you doing the exact same thing?

Now as to the A.J. haters out there. I don't get it. The guy is a pro's pro.

After watching him in pre-game I will tell you right now how the guy has gone from CBA-NBDL-journeyman NBA-solid contributer to our club. He works hard at his game. He does not have the talent or awareness of Jamaal but what he lacks in skill he makes up for in determination.

He would be the first person to tell you that he is not really a starting p.g., but in all honesty I have to wonder if that is the case anymore. What are his stats when he starts? I don't know but I think they are pretty good.

Slick Pinkham
04-06-2006, 02:38 PM
No, I have never seen AJ "throw away a game" after "Tinsley got our team a lead only to be taken out" for merely throwing one bad pass

or watched

"AJ pass it directly to the other team for a fast break several times in a row."

Now if "several times in a row" means "once or twice", yes it has happened.

And if "Tinsley getting us a lead" means that "he happened to be on the floor when the Pacers got ahead in spite of his bricklaying"

then that happened too.

But your exaggerated description of the situation doesn't fit what I've seen, watching league pass on an almost every game basis.

What should be our mantra:

If AJ is your starting PG, there's trouble.

If a pouty, whiny, and chronically injured Tinsley is your starting PG, there's trouble.

If Sarunas is your starting PG, there's trouble (for defensive reasons).

Maybe Tinsley can be made to care, to play hard, and contribute. That is actually more likely that AJ learning to run an offense or Sarunas learning to guard somebody.

Howver, I can rationalize the deficiencies of Saras and AJ as being just being limited by their abilitites. Tinsley seems to be limited by his ATTITUDE and that is way more frustrating.

FrenchConnection
04-06-2006, 02:40 PM
Let me just add this. During warm-ups before the game a few weeks ago against the Magic, Eddie Gill, Danny , AJ and Saras all worked hard for the entire time. Tins came out, took a few shots, and then proceeded to try to bounce the ball off of the floor and into the basket for about 10 minutes. The entire time he stood on the other side of the floor from the others and gave nasty looks to those of us that stood there watching. From all of this, I did not think that he would play that night but he did. Strange...

McClintic Sphere
04-06-2006, 02:40 PM
Also, why does he try & run isolation plays when he has a team that is built for motion? Additionally why does he not trust his players to call plays on the floor every now & then.


See, I'm not so sure about that. I think Saras, Granger, Cro, Freddy, Peja and Pollard are made for the motion game, but I'm not so sure about the others. JO, Harrison, Foster, AJ, Jax not so sure. We just have a clash of the wrong players for the wrong system.

Suaveness
04-06-2006, 02:40 PM
To the Jamaal is God crowd let me ask you something.

Ok, let's assume we fire the coach. Must the next coach tailor their system to Jamaal? If that is so, how do you guarantee that Jamaal plays more than 50 games next season? Because if he doesn't then we will have to have two entirely differant types of offensive sets for when he is in & when he is not.

Also, what if the next coach is a defensive minded ball control coach as well? Will you then demand they fire him as well?

Now to the Carlisle can do no wrong crowd.

Why did he wait till the end of the season to start taking control of this team? Why did he allow all of the barking at refs. & bad play from so many differant players and now that the season is almost over he decides to take a stand? Why did he, for no obvious reason other than on paper they are better players, choose to just set his lineup about 3 weeks ago when each of the injured players were still trying to work their way back into shap?

Also, why does he try & run isolation plays when he has a team that is built for motion? Additionally why does he not trust his players to call plays on the floor every now & then.


I say a Pox on both of their houses. If Bird fired Carlisle right now & suspended Jamaal for the rest of the season it wouldn't bother me at all.

Also, Ragnar buddy your starting to make me look rational when talking about Dale.;)

Jay, I see what you are saying to U.B. & it is funny how he is willing to jettison off Jamaal but would have defended Ron to the death.

However, aren't you doing the exact same thing?

Now as to the A.J. haters out there. I don't get it. The guy is a pro's pro.

After watching him in pre-game I will tell you right now how the guy has gone from CBA-NBDL-journeyman NBA-solid contributer to our club. He works hard at his game. He does not have the talent or awareness of Jamaal but what he lacks in skill he makes up for in determination.

He would be the first person to tell you that he is not really a starting p.g., but in all honesty I have to wonder if that is the case anymore. What are his stats when he starts? I don't know but I think they are pretty good.

I agree. With everything.

Unclebuck
04-06-2006, 03:03 PM
Now to the Carlisle can do no wrong crowd.

Why did he wait till the end of the season to start taking control of this team? Why did he allow all of the barking at refs. & bad play from so many differant players and now that the season is almost over he decides to take a stand? Why did he, for no obvious reason other than on paper they are better players, choose to just set his lineup about 3 weeks ago when each of the injured players were still trying to work their way back into shap?

Also, why does he try & run isolation plays when he has a team that is built for motion? Additionally why does he not trust his players to call plays on the floor every now & then.


I say a Pox on both of their houses. If Bird fired Carlisle right now & suspended Jamaal for the rest of the season it wouldn't bother me at all.

Also, Ragnar buddy your starting to make me look rational when talking about Dale.;)

Jay, I see what you are saying to U.B. & it is funny how he is willing to jettison off Jamaal but would have defended Ron to the death.

However, aren't you doing the exact same thing?

Now as to the A.J. haters out there. I don't get it. The guy is a pro's pro.

After watching him in pre-game I will tell you right now how the guy has gone from CBA-NBDL-journeyman NBA-solid contributer to our club. He works hard at his game. He does not have the talent or awareness of Jamaal but what he lacks in skill he makes up for in determination.

He would be the first person to tell you that he is not really a starting p.g., but in all honesty I have to wonder if that is the case anymore. What are his stats when he starts? I don't know but I think they are pretty good.


I've never been in the Carlisle can do no wrong crowd. Although maybe I was leading it. Ok yes I defend Rick after games because I reject the entire notion that a few decisions within a game by the head coach costs the team the game or that it makes the coach a bad coach. And beleive it or not I used to defend Isiah in the same manner, even though I thought he was a horrible coach.
As Jermaniac says Rick ais a great coach until the games starts. Well I think about 80% of coaching is done before the game starts.

I defended Ron, but I never denied the problems he caused, I just thought his good outweighed his bad. But I'm glad he's gone because as we all can plainly see now Ron was the only problem this team had. Seriously though I think Ron shielded his teammates from getting any of the blame, maybe his teammates hated Ron, but they should thank him because for about 4 years Ron got all the blame and other players got a free pass.

Bball
04-06-2006, 03:05 PM
Should I mention getting to a game early not too long ago and watching Tinsley warmup doing the same things as described here? I think it was the Phoenix game but I'm not certain of that.

Only shot a few shots and they were half-hearted looking attempts at that. More or less he just looked like a guy waiting on a bus that was 20 minutes late.

-Bball

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 03:07 PM
To the Jamaal is God crowd let me ask you something.

Ok, let's assume we fire the coach. Must the next coach tailor their system to Jamaal? If that is so, how do you guarantee that Jamaal plays more than 50 games next season? Because if he doesn't then we will have to have two entirely differant types of offensive sets for when he is in & when he is not.

Also, what if the next coach is a defensive minded ball control coach as well? Will you then demand they fire him as well?

Clearly if you are just going to hire another controll freak you might as well keep Rick and trade Jamaal.

I dont think the next coach should taylor their system to Jamaal. I think we should hire a coach who's system is right for these players NOT JUST JAMAAL. Everyone seems to be missing all the other points I have been making about Rick in these debates.

Rick is playing Jermaine out of position at least half the time and trying to make and athletic finese player into a banger. Nothing to do with Jamaal

Rick is playing AJ at the backup pg spot when he plays his BEST as a backup 2. Nothing to do with Jamaal

Rick is letting our 5 million a year pg who can run the offense sit and when he does play him he plays OUT OF POSITION at the 2 where he is worthless. I bet people would want Jermaine gone if Rick was playing him at the 2. Nothing to do with Jamaal.

Rick is the one who lets his egg timer take hot players out of games yet will lose his egg timer if we have a lead and the backups are in. He will let them completely lose controll of the game. Nothing to do with Jamaal.

Rick is the one who would rather not score than score with 20 seconds remaining on the shot clock. Nothing to do with Jamaal.

Now I know you seem to think all I care about is how Rick treats Jamaal but I view that as just an indicator of how badly he miss understands this team. Jamaal is simply the most recent to get fed up with it. Jermaine has called it boring, Jack has called it boring, you have called it boring everyone can see that Ricks system will never win a title yet he is still here.

No I dont want to rely completely on Jamaal or to make him so important in our plans that if he is injured we are screwed. But I dont want that from any single player. In the last two years Jamaal and his play has saved Ricks crappy system. We have not won a single playoff series without Jamaal thats fact not wishfull thinking on my part.

If you go back and watch the brawl game you will see Jamaal play probably the best game of his career. I know the Tinsley peaked in the first month crowd would like to forget that game for other reasons but the facts is the facts.

If anything what I want would actually make Jamaal less important. We all saw AJ play his best basketball in the system that Rick clearly hates. We all saw Sarunas play his best basketball in the system that Rick clearly hates. We all saw David Harrison play his best basketball in the system that Rick clearly hates. We all saw Danny Granger becoming a star in the system that Rick clearly hates.

Can anyone other than me see the problem here? When Rick played the up tempo motion offense that he hates, all of our players played better. Could it be that if we had a coach who could see that the players we have on our roster play better in a motion offense that a lot of the problems we have would go away? Could that be what I have been saying since last season?


Now to the Carlisle can do no wrong crowd.

Clearly I have nothing to add here.


Also, Ragnar buddy your starting to make me look rational when talking about Dale.;)

You are rational when talking about Dale :worship:

Remember being suprised at the forum party (not this one the one before that) when I told you I wanted Jamaal gone if he is not healthy for this years playoffs? It seems people only see what I say positive about Jamaal and skip all the rest.


And I DONT HATE AJ. I simply hate him being played out of position. I want him at the backup 2 not the starting pg.

BillS
04-06-2006, 03:16 PM
Now to the Carlisle can do no wrong crowd.

Never said he could do no wrong, just that he needs a chance with whatever new lineup we have next year.

In the spirit of the game, though, I'll try to answer each of these points from a one-sided perspective.


Why did he wait till the end of the season to start taking control of this team? Why did he allow all of the barking at refs. & bad play from so many differant players and now that the season is almost over he decides to take a stand?

Because when he has tried to take control in the past the players (and ultimately his management) rebelled against him and told him that wasn't his role - by firing him in one case, and by demanding trades and breaking plays in the others.


Why did he, for no obvious reason other than on paper they are better players, choose to just set his lineup about 3 weeks ago when each of the injured players were still trying to work their way back into shap?

Because at some point before the playoffs you have to set a lineup. Going into the playoffs still not knowing who was going to play when and at what stage of the game would be a disaster. Not that this was turned out to be any less of one, but at least there was a chance of some stability from it.


Also, why does he try & run isolation plays when he has a team that is built for motion? Additionally why does he not trust his players to call plays on the floor every now & then.

Because they get into pissing contests with the other team's point guard and ignore the rest of the team on the floor while trying to show off? Because a planned isolation is at least likely to stop the quick stick-and-brick that our backcourt tends to fall into? Because our outside shooting is so undependable that no defense ever spreads out against us and so most motion just ends up throwing the ball around the outside until the inevitable missed shot happens?

I wouldn't trust most of this backcourt to call in their own pizza order.

Bball
04-06-2006, 03:20 PM
everyone can see that Ricks system will never win a title yet he is still here.



I wouldn't say Rick's -system- would never win a title. Maybe he could stand to go with the hothand a little longer and that type of thing, but overall, the problem I have with the system is it is going to fail because JO is not the guy that needs to be the centerpiece of it. That's the first thing... the second thing (and maybe you can swap 1 and 2...) is that our team isn't mature enough or smart enough to play the system. ...But then it's pretty easy to lose faith in a system when the centerpiece of the system is not ready/able/good enough for that role.

JO would need to be more durable and also make quicker/better decisions with the ball. Maybe if he could do that his efficiency would rise. He's not Shaq and he's not Tim Duncan... even if we pay him like he is... And actually I'm beginning to think he's farther back in that second tier than many of us want to admit. And as an added thought, JO is going to have to do a lot more leading by example to continue to be the centerpiece of this team or it's always going to be a powerplay or uneasy struggle with the vacuum that is created as other players more naturally fill the role. That means putting in the extra time on the practice court, working out before games, doing the little things during games, elevating his game when the chips are down, making the game easier for others on a consistent basis, playing solid and smart not judging his own game by his score, etc... not just talking a good game and posing. This would also be known as "Busting his butt"

Forcing this system around JO just exposes his weaknesses. It might even contribute to his injuries. And of course trying to use Harrison as a poor man's JO is going to yield even worse results.

The problem then goes back to Carlisle because he continues to hammer the square pegs into the round holes.

Tinsley is just a sideshow in an ongoing problem.

-Bball

BillS
04-06-2006, 03:21 PM
Rick is the one who would rather not score than score with 20 seconds remaining on the shot clock. Nothing to do with Jamaal.

I'd agree with this if there was any proof that we could score even 30% of the time with 20 seconds remaining on the shot clock. Most of the time we move too slowly to get under the basket without the defense being set, so we settle for the long jumper, which constantly misses - and, with no other Pacers around, practically guarantees a one-and-done.

If we were lighting it up from outside and this was going on, I'd see your point. As it is, I'd be trying to avoid anything that encourages shots from more than point-blank range.

Ragnar
04-06-2006, 03:38 PM
I'd agree with this if there was any proof that we could score even 30% of the time with 20 seconds remaining on the shot clock. Most of the time we move too slowly to get under the basket without the defense being set, so we settle for the long jumper, which constantly misses - and, with no other Pacers around, practically guarantees a one-and-done.

If we were lighting it up from outside and this was going on, I'd see your point. As it is, I'd be trying to avoid anything that encourages shots from more than point-blank range.

In the Chicago game we scored twice in a row within 20 seconds. It was so quick the Bulls cameras missed the pass, barely caught one of the baskets at all and caught the second one after the pass had landed in the hands of the players. Rick then took Jamaal out of the game.

Jamaal is usually over the time line with 21 or 22 on the clock AJ gets there with about 18. Clearly 20 seconds is not meant to be a timeline of when I want them to be scoring. What I am saying is that Rick would rather hold for the entire 24 seconds and not score than to score early in the shot clock.

Seed
04-06-2006, 04:11 PM
This is just unbelivable.

The way I see it, Rick was very interested in Jamal being the starting PG right about now. He actually placed a bet on Jamal, knowing that if he was injured again, the season will end in a disgraceful way.
He went further and sent Sarunas to the doghouse, just to make AJ and Jamal more comfortable.
But the team was playing horribly!

The ironic thing is that both Jamal's fans, and Mel-Mel himself do not recognize this act of trust.

Worse, when the team sucks, and Rick wants Jamal to step aside and support from the bench, he repays...

brichard
04-06-2006, 05:00 PM
Rick is playing Jermaine out of position at least half the time and trying to make and athletic finese player into a banger. Nothing to do with Jamaal

I can buy that Jermaine is a better PF than a C, but c'mon... in the East he qualifies. And if you are going to complain about him being a C, than who is it going to be? Polly and Foster have been injured quite a bit this year and DH is a rookie who is prone to foul trouble. No matter what Rick's best intentions are, JO is going to have to play center. And with his size, skills, and so/so competition from most of the league, he should perform just dandy.


Rick is playing AJ at the backup pg spot when he plays his BEST as a backup 2. Nothing to do with Jamaal Rick is letting our 5 million a year pg who can run the offense sit and when he does play him he plays OUT OF POSITION at the 2 where he is worthless. I bet people would want Jermaine gone if Rick was playing him at the 2. Nothing to do with Jamaal.


Your problem is that all of your point guards are short. Defensive matchups are often okay with one short guard so you can play the AI's/JWil/Derek Fishers of the world. But, you usually need at least one tall guard on the floor. And herein is the problem for AJ and Saras. When they are both on the floor, we are getting killed on defense at one position or the other due to height. Since we only have one SG on the team, Stephen Jackson, these guys are going to play out of position at times in order to get minutes. I still think AJ is a serviceable backup at PG or SG.

Even if we switch AJ to SG and Saras to PG, which I'm not opposed to, there would be some glaring defensive limitations to that lineup. Since Saras struggles to bring the ball up with pressure, I think that is another reason why Rick has him be the SG. You only have 24 seconds to get things going. I still fail to see why Saras can't use some of his court vision/passing skills as a 2. Larry Bird did it as a forward, so why can't a shooting guard do some nice things with the ball?


Rick is the one who lets his egg timer take hot players out of games yet will lose his egg timer if we have a lead and the backups are in. He will let them completely lose controll of the game. Nothing to do with Jamaal.

Fans hate egg timer rotations, but Larry Bird did pretty well with them. It keeps your team fresh and consistent and should prevent your team from tanking from fatigue in the final minutes. There are cons to this type of system, ie the hot hand getting cold, but it can work well.

ChicagoJ
04-06-2006, 06:23 PM
How quickly you guys forget...

I'm okay with replacing every single one of our guards. That includes Tinsley. Not that long ago I wanted 15 new players. That includes Tinsley. I'm okay with our Danny-JO-David frontcourt of the future.

I do think the piling on toward Tinsley is overboard. Mostly because I think a lot of the problems are based on a toxic coach-player relationship and I'm okay with seeing Tinsley get a fair chance with a new coach, and I'm okay with management jettisoning him if they think he's a problem.

But we know that Pacers' management doesn't just trade players just because they are disruptions. It took years for Sacremento to finally be willing to pull the trigger on the Artest trade as management stubbornly held out for "fair value", so let's not assume that management is going to change, either.

For the longest time, it was just me against the rest of the board (okay, I had a couple allies but not many) about Ron.

My support of Tinsley - outside of this thread - is lukewarm at best. And I'm mostly poking some fun at the irony here.

Seed
04-06-2006, 06:34 PM
But we know that Pacers' management doesn't just trade players just because they are disruptions. It took years for Sacremento to finally be willing to pull the trigger on the Artest trade as management stubbornly held out for "fair value", so let's not assume that management is going to change, either.


"I feel like it was a failure in a sense. And if anything, I felt like we went too long with it.''
"As somebody who's done it for 40 years, you fall in love with talent,'' "Many times in my career, I've thought maybe you shouldn't fall in love with talent; there are other attributes. Unfortunately, in our business, you fall in love with talent.''

DW, Jan 2006.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060126/COLUMNISTS01/601260429/1004/SPORTS

BillS
04-07-2006, 10:07 AM
In the Chicago game we scored twice in a row within 20 seconds. It was so quick the Bulls cameras missed the pass, barely caught one of the baskets at all and caught the second one after the pass had landed in the hands of the players. Rick then took Jamaal out of the game.

Jamaal is usually over the time line with 21 or 22 on the clock AJ gets there with about 18. Clearly 20 seconds is not meant to be a timeline of when I want them to be scoring. What I am saying is that Rick would rather hold for the entire 24 seconds and not score than to score early in the shot clock.

If I remember those scores correctly, those were on rebounds not on any kind of out-of-bounds play. I also remember that those were well overshadowed by the times when the ball came across the timeline quickly but the receiver had to dribble and allowed the rest of the defenders to get in place OR the times when the receiver got the ball and decided to put the ball up from waaaay outside instead of trying to get closer to the basket.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

ChicagoJ
04-07-2006, 02:06 PM
I wouldn't trust most of this backcourt to call in their own pizza order.

Then we should hire somebody to coach them; get them prepared to play.

Arcadian
04-07-2006, 02:13 PM
My support of Tinsley - outside of this thread - is lukewarm at best. And I'm mostly poking some fun at the irony here.

I completely agree with you Jay. This is a players league if there is a coach/player conflict you've got to work it out with the player.

I just didn't say anything because you had it covered and I am afraid of UB.