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View Full Version : Is there anyone left who wants Rick to still be coaching this team?



Ragnar
04-04-2006, 10:49 PM
I know there were a few at the forum party who still wanted him arround so after he threw yet another game away with poor coaching my question is do you still want him?



In case you did not see the game or are in denial Rick lost this game at about the 8:30 mark and continued to make foolish decision after foolish decision.

Evan_The_Dude
04-04-2006, 10:51 PM
It's time to go. I don't dislike him, but it's time to move on. This just can't keep happening. New players, new coach. I'm done.

EDIT: I'm hoping we play our way out of making the playoffs if that's still possible. I need a vacation from expecting this team to win games they should win. Lets just end the year aready, I'm not ready to watch them stink up the playoffs.

pacers11789
04-04-2006, 10:52 PM
i hope i wake up tomorrow and see that rick has been fired

Suaveness
04-04-2006, 10:52 PM
Rick did not lose a 17 pt lead.

Unclebuck
04-04-2006, 10:52 PM
In case you did not see the game or are in denial Rick lost this game at about the 8:30 mark and continued to make foolish decision after foolish decision.


I categorically disagree with your assessment

Ragnar
04-04-2006, 10:53 PM
It's time to go. I don't dislike him, but it's time to move on. This just can't keep happening. New players, new coach. I'm done.

I dont dislike Rick either but he is clearly the wrong coach for this team. He would be great for the 1998 Knicks but this is a young athletic team.

Ragnar
04-04-2006, 10:55 PM
I categorically disagree with your assessment

Really? I know you have a decent knowledge of the game. At what point do you think he lost the game? Was it at the 6:22 mark when it became extremely clear that Rick had screwed up? Or was it when he put AJ back in after allowing him to let the Bulls back into it earlier? Seriousley I want to know when you think he lost it. Because from where I sat he lost it at the 8:30 mark when he failed to put the starters back in and let the bench lose the lead.

J_2_Da_IzzO
04-04-2006, 10:57 PM
Rick did not lose a 17 pt lead.

As the coach you should not let your players keep missing three after three when your up 13 without saying something. At some point shouldnt it come up that its time to start having a go at them to take the ball inside, draw fouls etc.

Evan_The_Dude
04-04-2006, 10:58 PM
Rick is reactive. We need Proactive.

PostArtestEra
04-04-2006, 11:06 PM
WTF! Why do people never know who to blame. I swear to God people throw a dart, or pick a name out of a hat or something. I don't care if our coach is a mentally challenged eight year old, with a seventeen point lead in the fourth quarter the game should be over.

grace
04-04-2006, 11:08 PM
Is there anyone left who wants Rick to still be coaching this team?As opposed to Kevin O'neil? I'll keep Rick, thank you very much.

Ragnar
04-04-2006, 11:09 PM
Suave if you had seen the game I think you would change your tune. It was the coach who left the bench in against the other teams starters on their home floor.

Ragnar
04-04-2006, 11:10 PM
As opposed to Kevin O'neil? I'll keep Rick, thank you very much.

Clearly I want Kevin gone as well. I am sorry I should have included that part.

Jermaniac
04-04-2006, 11:10 PM
I dont like Rick, but this loss wasnt his fault. I still want him fired though, but now I want this team to be blown up too. All of them need to go.

Unclebuck
04-04-2006, 11:10 PM
Because from where I sat he lost it at the 8:30 mark when he failed to put the starters back in and let the bench lose the lead.



I guarantee if he had done that and the Pacers lost 95% of you would blame Rick for doing his egg-timer substitutions and for not staying with the players that got them the lead

grace
04-04-2006, 11:12 PM
Clearly I want Kevin gone as well. I am sorry I should have included that part.

Let's say Rick gets fired right after his press conference tonight. Who exactly do you want to coach the rest of the season?

Ragnar
04-04-2006, 11:13 PM
I guarantee if he had done that and the Pacers lost 95% of you would blame Rick for doing his egg-timer substitutions and for not staying with the players that got them the lead

The problem with Rick is that he uses his egg timer to get the bench in but never to get the starters back in. He ALWAYS will let the bench stay in untill they have the lead to either under 10 or in many cases lost completely. I have been *****ing about this for three years I cant believe you cant see it.

Ragnar
04-04-2006, 11:13 PM
Let's say Rick gets fired right after his press conference tonight. Who exactly do you want to coach the rest of the season?

Mark Jackson only because Byron Scott (who they should have hired in 00) is not available.

grace
04-04-2006, 11:16 PM
Mark Jackson.

In that case I'll keep Rick and maybe Kevin.

Actually, I think the Pacers would stand a better chance if Kegboy was the coach.

Shade
04-04-2006, 11:26 PM
Personally, I don't want anybody coaching this team anymore. I don't even want this team anymore.

Kaufman
04-04-2006, 11:28 PM
I don't think Kegboy is available?

PostArtestEra
04-04-2006, 11:28 PM
The problem with Rick is that he uses his egg timer to get the bench in but never to get the starters back in. He ALWAYS will let the bench stay in untill they have the lead to either under 10 or in many cases lost completely. I have been *****ing about this for three years I cant believe you cant see it.

I'm not positive, but wasn't it the bench that got us the lead in the first place. From what I remember the bench had been playing wonderful until the fourth quarter.

Big Smooth
04-04-2006, 11:36 PM
I think Rick Carlisle is still the man for the job. He is not perfect but over a 2-year period he has been placed in far less than perfect circumstances and IMO dealt with them about as well as any other coach in the NBA.

The one season that we had stability, the Pacers won 60+ games and pushed Detroit to 6 games in the ECF which incidentally is one more game than the "vaunted" Lakers managed in the NBA Finals.

Rick isn't perfect, but he is a good coach overall. With any coach, you can cherry pick good or bad decisions to support your opinion.

I guess my spectrum just broadens over the entire 2 years of hell that our beloved Pacers have been through for a myriad of reasons.

I believe Carlisle can still get us to the promised land but the roster will need to change.

pacerwaala
04-04-2006, 11:43 PM
I don't think Rick is to blame except for the fact that he should have gotten AJ out of there with 6 minutes left. Did Tinsley play out of the offense so much that Rick took him out? Unless Tinsley screws up posession after posession, he should be in there at the end. I just do not understand Rick's fetish for AJ. Why did AJ not pass to SJax who was open on that 5 second violation posession.

The reason this team lost such a game is -

1 - This team has a very very fragile mental psyche.

2 - They whine too much to the refs and stop playing defense while whining.

2 - Their discipline and level of concentration is not upto par. They get distracted easily.

3 - I have been preaching this from day one - This team misses Reggie a lot. He was the glue that held this team together and motivated this team, showed them the way. .

t1hs0n
04-04-2006, 11:49 PM
Yes, I still want Rick to coach this team.

Unclebuck
04-05-2006, 12:02 AM
And you certainly don't change coaches with 9 games left. Believe me Mark Jackson will be available probably for some time

brichard
04-05-2006, 12:15 AM
I guarantee if he had done that and the Pacers lost 95% of you would blame Rick for doing his egg-timer substitutions and for not staying with the players that got them the lead

Yep. Similar to the "Donnie never takes risks." and when he does... he is an idiot for taking the risk.

I'll stick by what I said the other night, and that is RC needs to go as much for himself as nothing else. The team puckered and choked in the last part of the game and that is all there is to it.

1. JO missed 2 costly Fros.

2. JT and AJ were passing to the other team as much as to their team mates.

3. Chicago was giving far more hustle and effort in each and every play down the stretch.

Ultimately the accountability for how this team plays is Rick, and for that he deserves criticism. But tonight we just found a way to lose.

I'm not sure how you can fault Rick exclusively for our end demise when starters made some of the most key errors down the stretch.

Eraser
04-05-2006, 12:34 AM
Ragnar's right. I don't get what you guys who think Rick is still an asset are seeing. I know there's more to blame than the coach, but it's got to start there. Time's up. And please take AJ when you go...or at least I hope your replacement can see that he is a SG, at best.

ChicagoJ
04-05-2006, 12:41 AM
Thank God I didn't waste money on this piece-of-crap performance.

Will Galen
04-05-2006, 12:56 AM
[QUOTE=Ragnar]I know there were a few at the forum party who still wanted him arround so after he threw yet another game away with poor coaching my question is do you still want him?

Balderdash! Yeah I want him!

TheLemonSong
04-05-2006, 01:34 AM
Let's ask this question a different way: Where would this team be without Rick? Two years in a row he's led this team into the playoffs after some simply unbelievable adversity...and *still* there are haters?

Ragnar, so since this whole thing is Rick's fault, why not blame Larry/Donnie for hiring him? Are you a Larry/Donnie hater too? Maybe it's the Simons's fault too...?

Where does it end? Why is blame squarely on one person? This is a team sport, no *one* person loses a game, a season, or anything else...

Ragnar
04-05-2006, 09:30 AM
Let's ask this question a different way: Where would this team be without Rick? Two years in a row he's led this team into the playoffs after some simply unbelievable adversity...and *still* there are haters?

Ragnar, so since this whole thing is Rick's fault, why not blame Larry/Donnie for hiring him? Are you a Larry/Donnie hater too? Maybe it's the Simons's fault too...?

Where does it end? Why is blame squarely on one person? This is a team sport, no *one* person loses a game, a season, or anything else...

I do blame Larry for hiring him. I have been complaining that Byron was not hired after 00 since then. I also blame Donnie for hiring Isiah. You are miss reading my post if you think I hate Rick. Sure I get angry at him for throwing games away because he clearly does not understand his own players but I dont hate him. As a matter of fact if we had an older veteran team with a pure shooter at the two, a shoot first pg and not a lot of scoring from the pf he would probably be the right coach for us. The problem is that as anyone can see that is not the personel we have on this team.

I blame Donnie for building a young athletic team and then hiring coaches who do not know how to coach them when there is a perfect coach who has taken less talent to the Finals twice or could try a first time coach in Mark Jackson if nothing else who at least understands the concept of a pass first pg and a motion offense.

The problem is that for the most part I like the team Donnie built I just wish he could get the right coach in here to maximize their talents rather than pound it into the post and stand arround and watch.

Fool
04-05-2006, 09:44 AM
Adelman might be available next year. He can run your motion offense. I think you overrate Byron Scott but I also think JO would really like Scott (until Scott inevitable pissed him off as he no doubt would do). IMO, the Pacer Brass doesn't get enough criticism here.

Unclebuck
04-05-2006, 09:49 AM
I do not want Adelman at all. You think our defense isn't that good now.

Skaut_Ech
04-05-2006, 10:05 AM
Let's ask this question a different way: Where would this team be without Rick? Two years in a row he's led this team into the playoffs after some simply unbelievable adversity...and *still* there are haters?

Ragnar, so since this whole thing is Rick's fault, why not blame Larry/Donnie for hiring him? Are you a Larry/Donnie hater too? Maybe it's the Simons's fault too...?

Where does it end? Why is blame squarely on one person? This is a team sport, no *one* person loses a game, a season, or anything else...


I think you have a point Lemonsong, but ultimately, I think the lion's share of the burden does fall with Rick. :sadyes: Why do I say that? I think Rick was the right guy for this team when he was hired. He was a control guy and we had a young team. I think it was a smart idea. I think it's comparable to the tight reins of Avery Johnson on his young squad, or Larry Brown with some of his young teams in the past.

I think Rick WAS the right guy, but I think most of us are seeing that other than that stretch after the suspensions, Rick has a hard problem adapting, whether it's his system to his personell or in-game decisions. No one person may screw the pooch, but like I said, they can shoulder the lion's share of the responsibility.

It's not an issue of being ungrateful for what Rick's done or unappreciative of how he's handled this team in the past. I think they just think his time here may have passed. His contributions are appreciated, but.....:dunno:

I will say this. Either Rick needs to go or we need to make some wholesale changes and tailor this team more to his strengths. I do not feel you can keep Rick and this roster intact. Right now I blame Rick. We don't make some management type hard decisions and saty the course, they I start pointing the finger at Bird/Walsh.:irked:

Unclebuck
04-05-2006, 10:42 AM
Of course the obvious question is this. If the Pacers trade away 7 or 8 players this summer, and significant players, core players, who is a better coach than Rick Carlisle.

Is Mark Jackson (who has never coached anything, ever, is he a better coach than Rick ?

BillS
04-05-2006, 10:57 AM
I still stick with what I said at the party, I want to see wholesale player changes which would mean Rick should get another year.

I feel like you make major player changes OR coaching change but not both. That may be my troubleshooting background, where you don't make all your changes at once.

If we make only one of those changes, I don't see any coach in the league who can win with the attitude of the current players.

And yes, Peck & DougOH, the makeup of the team rests on Donnie's (and Larry's) shoulders. However, the complete and utter failure of attitude did not hit until after the trade deadline, so I await moves this summer before I start jumping on management completely.

waxman
04-05-2006, 11:00 AM
I certainly wouldn't put this loss on bench play.... they were the unit that played Defense, gave us energy, executed and helped build us a lead. Yeah, they let the lead slip a little....but the starters (sans Jackson in the second half) stunk up the court for a majority of the night and lost the lead.

Chicago got multiple answered prayers from Ben Gordon also....it would've been nice to have Freddie out there on him at the end.

Officiating was questionable.... seemed like Peja maybe should've got some calls towards the end... but didn't.

vey dissapointing.

Roy Munson
04-05-2006, 11:11 AM
I do not want Adelman at all. You think our defense isn't that good now.

Adelman's Portland teams in the early 90's (Porter, Drexler, Duckworth, Williams, Kersey, et. al) were very good defensively.

On the topic of Carlisle, the Pacers's are fortunate to have him. He's a great coach. He's just got two or three knuckleheads on his team now that he has to work with. Give him some good defenders and he'll get the Pacers back to where they need to be. They just need to get rid of Jackson and Tinsley and anyone else who won't play defense, and replace them with hard-nosed defenders.

BTW -- The Pacers didn't lose last night's game at the 8:30 mark, or the 6:30 mark, or any other mark. They lost this game about 3 weeks ago when Freddy hurt his thumb. They didn't have anyone to contain Ben Gordon in the 4th quarter.

grace
04-05-2006, 11:12 AM
Is Mark Jackson (who has never coached anything, ever, is he a better coach than Rick ?

Not that I want Mark (because I don't) but as I recall Larry Bird had never coached either.

Slick Pinkham
04-05-2006, 11:35 AM
I would love to see JO, Danny, Peja, and some decent guards run a Pete Carrill type offense or other motion-type offense.

Rick will never do that.

I'm ready to dump Rick only if our current collapse leads us to miss the playoffs or get totally embarrassed (non-competitive) in the first round.

BillS
04-05-2006, 11:52 AM
Not that I want Mark (because I don't) but as I recall Larry Bird had never coached either.

But Larry basically took over a team where all the pieces were in place.

You can't say that at all now.

Ragnar
04-05-2006, 11:55 AM
Of course the obvious question is this. If the Pacers trade away 7 or 8 players this summer, and significant players, core players, who is a better coach than Rick Carlisle.

Is Mark Jackson (who has never coached anything, ever, is he a better coach than Rick ?

I agree that we would either need to trade pretty much the entire team or fire Rick. The problem is that I like the team Donnie built. I am tired of being flexible I want to win and win with the players we have. It would be a lot easier to find the right coach than to find players that fit with Ricks system. I have seen so many teams throw away great young teams because they had the wrong coach (chicago a couple of years ago for example)

As far as someone being a better coach than Rick you are completely missing my point. Rick is a VERY GOOD coach. When he has nothing to work with he works wonders. But I dont want to see a scrappy over achieving team who cant get past the first round I want a team who is capable of winning a title. If I had an expansion team I would hire Rick in a heart beat. If I had the oldest team in the NBA (as in average age of players) I would hire Rick. But I would not hire Rick to coach THIS TEAM.

I dont want Adelman I dont think he is the right guy for this team either, however I do think he would get more out of them than Rick would.

Skaut_Ech
04-05-2006, 12:36 PM
I guess that's what colors me making a decision. Although I think Rick might be a fundamantally flawed coach when it comes to his adapting, I don't want him gone if it means we keep guys like Tinsley, Jackson, etc.

Yeah, it's easier to replace one guy than it is 3 or 4, but, man, I just don't like a lot of our guys. Despite what I've said about Rick, I'd rather see him stay on with a team built around Peja, Granger, Hulk and an all-star we've traded for, rather than keep this team intact and get a new coach.

Putnam
04-05-2006, 01:02 PM
do you still want him?


Nope.

Ragnar
04-05-2006, 01:04 PM
I guess that's what colors me making a decision. Although I think Rick might be a fundamantally flawed coach when it comes to his adapting, I don't want him gone if it means we keep guys like Tinsley, Jackson, etc.

Yeah, it's easier to replace one guy than it is 3 or 4, but, man, I just don't like a lot of our guys. Despite what I've said about Rick, I'd rather see him stay on with a team built around Peja, Granger, Hulk and an all-star we've traded for, rather than keep this team intact and get a new coach.

I think a lot of people who hate certain players on this team would like them a lot more if they were used properly. I know I have a new respect for AJ from the few games that Rick has used him properly. I can also see a lot more out of Hulk from the few games that Rick used him properly.

I would argue that the list of players being played either incorrectly (ie not using thier talents or out of position) would be Jamaal, AJ, Sarunas, Jack, J.O. and Hulk.

You probably look at J.O. and say how is he being miss used since he is the leading scorer. Well he is playing much of the game out of position (anyone notice he is injured more since he started playing C) and does not get a lot of rebounds. He should be spending 100% of his time at the pf and none at the C. He is young and athletic but we dont use ANY of that in our offense Rick wants him to be a banger and he simply is not.

RWB
04-05-2006, 01:21 PM
Since we're floating names out there (ala Mark Jackson) has Clark Kellogg ever given an indication of going into coaching?

CableKC
04-05-2006, 01:27 PM
I would love to see JO, Danny, Peja, and some decent guards run a Pete Carrill type offense or other motion-type offense.

Rick will never do that.

I'm ready to dump Rick only if our current collapse leads us to miss the playoffs or get totally embarrassed (non-competitive) in the first round.
I may not like Carlisle's brand off offense....but I think a controlled offense is a necessary evil given the roster that we have been cursed with.

Do you really want any coach to run the type of offense with a stable of "me first" shooters ( SJax, Tinsley and...from time to time.....JONeal, AJ and Freddi ) on the roster?

If not and we essentially let the players decide how and when to make the shots....I would think that we would see more and more of our "why is he shooting so much" type post-game threads.

Get rid of SJax and Tinsley and replace them with more team players like Peja and Granger and let's see what Carlisle can do.

CableKC
04-05-2006, 01:43 PM
I agree that we would either need to trade pretty much the entire team or fire Rick. The problem is that I like the team Donnie built. I am tired of being flexible I want to win and win with the players we have. It would be a lot easier to find the right coach than to find players that fit with Ricks system. I have seen so many teams throw away great young teams because they had the wrong coach (chicago a couple of years ago for example)
I agree with you that its easier to find a coach then it is to replace players....but I don't think its the right thing to do in this case. Throwing a bunch of talented players together doesn't necessarily mean that we would start winning.....having the right coach mold and utilize that talent is as important.

Regardless of the coach or offensive strategy that we have....I still think that SJax and Tinsley would continually jack up bad shots ( despite the fact that they are ice cold ) and still decide to stick with their mid-range/perimeter jumpshot instead of trying something else like driving to the hoop to draw fouls will still do the same.

When it matters......most notably in the 2nd half....I honestly think that SJax, Tinsley and even players like JONeal/Freddie/AJ have ( at times ) tuned Carlisle out and essentially does what they want when it comes to the offensive end.

When a player is ice-cold.....it does not make any sense for a coach like Carlisle....a methodical and micro-managing one at worst.....would continually call plays for that player to take yet another mid-range jumpshot or not call a play to have that player drive to the hoop instead of calling a play for a player to take a perimeter shot with 18 seconds left on the shot clock. SJax and Tinsley ( the most notable offenders ) don't strike me as players that would listen to Carlisle when it really matters the most.....especially when we have a comfortable lead against another team.

That's the only thing I fault Carlisle for....its not having the fortitude to bench a starter when they don't listen or when they mess up bad.

Gyron
04-05-2006, 01:54 PM
Hypothetically, let's say a miracle happens and we end up making the playoffs and advance as far as the ECF's or even the finals but lose.

Just curious would you still want Rick to go?

I'm just curious what it would take for the current Rick haters to change their feelings about Rick and accept him back next season with an open mind?

RWB
04-05-2006, 01:55 PM
I still think that SJax and Tinsley would continually jack up bad shots ( despite the fact that they are ice cold ) and still decide to stick with their mid-range/perimeter jumpshot

So that's why when I looked up the word Tinsley or Jackson in Webster's, the definition 'exaggerated sense of self importance' came up.

CableKC
04-05-2006, 02:01 PM
So that's why when I looked up the word Tinsley or Jackson in Webster's, the definition 'exaggerated sense of self importance' came up.
Exactly....changing coaches ( unless that coach is named Larry Brown or Jerry Sloan who would probably bench their @sses a long time ago ) won't change the fact that both Tinsley and Jackson jack up shots despite the fact that they couldn't hit the side of a barn.

CableKC
04-05-2006, 02:06 PM
Hypothetically, let's say a miracle happens and we end up making the playoffs and advance as far as the ECF's or even the finals but lose.

Just curious would you still want Rick to go?

I'm just curious what it would take for the current Rick haters to change their feelings about Rick and accept him back next season with an open mind?
I don't think it would make any difference until we see players with a "me first" attitude like SJax and Tinsley shipped out and we keep ( or acquire ) more players with a "team first" attitude like Peja, Granger or Sarunas.

To me....our 2 most favorite starters on the roster is the problem. When those problems are eliminated.....and we still have the same problems with Carlisle....then we can change coaches. Until then....we will still have this problem...regardless of how far we advance in the Playoffs.

Putnam
04-05-2006, 02:09 PM
Let's ask this question a different way: Where would this team be without Rick? Two years in a row he's led this team into the playoffs after some simply unbelievable adversity...and *still* there are haters?

Ragnar, so since this whole thing is Rick's fault, why not blame Larry/Donnie for hiring him? Are you a Larry/Donnie hater too? Maybe it's the Simons's fault too...?

Where does it end? Why is blame squarely on one person? This is a team sport, no *one* person loses a game, a season, or anything else...

Golly!

Ragnar hasn't said that everything is Rick's fault. I doubt if anyone would say that the Pacers' disappointing season is "squarely on one person." (If there is such an opinion, I disagree with it.)

The original question was, "Is there anyone who still wants Rick to be coach?"

And the answer is, "Yes" there are some people who still do want him. They think that with a fresh start with some new players, Rick Carlisle could do something better than we've got now.

But there are also some who think that head coach is a position of responsibility, and that the coach is inevitably responsible for results. In any game or any possession, we can argue whether Tinsley should have passed or JO should have boxed out or Sarunas should be back in Israel.

But the team is 24 1/2 games out of first place, a game and a half from elimination, and on a five-game losing streak when the core of the team is healthy. I don't see how you can explain that without putting some fault on Carlisle. There have been injuries, but the team was supposed to be deep enough to cope with injuries. What we see now is a team that can't play defense, which is supposed to be Carlisle's strength.

By the way, there is nothing unbelieveable about the adversity the team has faced. Lots of teams have lost a starter or two for months at a time. Bruno had a question of the day last year noting that the number of player/games lost through injury or suspension last year for the Pacers was nowhere near the record. The brawl was a disgrace, but the resulting loss of talent on the floor was nothing unbelievable.

We aren't losing because if adversity. That is every loser's excuse. We're losing because the wheels are off. (Can I say that withing being called a "hater?")

ChicagoJ
04-05-2006, 02:18 PM
Since we're floating names out there (ala Mark Jackson) has Clark Kellogg ever given an indication of going into coaching?

Oh, my.

Please never.

Mr. 96-wins in four NBA seasons.

Mr. "Herb and I combined to go 14-13 against a college schedule, why the :censored: would any NBA team put us together again??"

I'll take Larry Brown over him, and that's saying something.

Gyron
04-05-2006, 02:25 PM
I don't think it would make any difference until we see players with a "me first" attitude like SJax and Tinsley shipped out and we keep ( or acquire ) more players with a "team first" attitude like Peja, Granger or Sarunas.

To me....our 2 most favorite starters on the roster is the problem. When those problems are eliminated.....and we still have the same problems with Carlisle....then we can change coaches. Until then....we will still have this problem...regardless of how far we advance in the Playoffs.

But right there you are saying its the players not the coach. So why would we want to ditch the coach if we see the "me first" players causing the problems?

RWB
04-05-2006, 02:27 PM
Of course you're right Jay. I mean Clark and Herb had the greatest coach ever for the Pacers in George Irvine to teach them.

CableKC
04-05-2006, 02:36 PM
But right there you are saying its the players not the coach. So why would we want to ditch the coach if we see the "me first" players causing the problems?
Maybe I worded it wrong......my whole point is that I think we have 2 variables that should be eliminated from the whole "Should Carlisle be let go?" equation. Once we eliminate those 2 variables..... .if we are still losing...then I am more comfortable with changing coaches.

Until then......I think it is difficult to entirely blame Carlisle for all our woes.

Ragnar
04-05-2006, 02:58 PM
I agree with you that its easier to find a coach then it is to replace players....but I don't think its the right thing to do in this case. Throwing a bunch of talented players together doesn't necessarily mean that we would start winning.....having the right coach mold and utilize that talent is as important.

Regardless of the coach or offensive strategy that we have....I still think that SJax and Tinsley would continually jack up bad shots ( despite the fact that they are ice cold ) and still decide to stick with their mid-range/perimeter jumpshot instead of trying something else like driving to the hoop to draw fouls will still do the same.

When it matters......most notably in the 2nd half....I honestly think that SJax, Tinsley and even players like JONeal/Freddie/AJ have ( at times ) tuned Carlisle out and essentially does what they want when it comes to the offensive end.

When a player is ice-cold.....it does not make any sense for a coach like Carlisle....a methodical and micro-managing one at worst.....would continually call plays for that player to take yet another mid-range jumpshot or not call a play to have that player drive to the hoop instead of calling a play for a player to take a perimeter shot with 18 seconds left on the shot clock. SJax and Tinsley ( the most notable offenders ) don't strike me as players that would listen to Carlisle when it really matters the most.....especially when we have a comfortable lead against another team.

That's the only thing I fault Carlisle for....its not having the fortitude to bench a starter when they don't listen or when they mess up bad.

My first question to you would be is this the first year you have watched the Pacers? The reason I ask that is that many of the people on this board used to ***** and complain that Jamaal would go through entire games without shooting AT ALL. (of course we won 75% of those games) Rick has tried to turn him into a scoring pg which from his body language and his poor shot selection is clearly not what he wants to be. Rick has tried to turn Jermaine into a banger and Jermaine is a finese player.

As far as Jack is concerned I think if he knew that a coach would get him the ball when he was hot he would be more controllable. I think the best example would be Allen Iverson. Jack is a lot like Iverson, his shot selection is poor but he will keep driving keep shooting and always gets back up after getting knocked down. He even *****es at the reffs a lot like Iverson. Some coaches have gotten a lot out of Iverson and some have gotten very little. Rick would get very little.

Since86
04-05-2006, 04:04 PM
My first question to you would be is this the first year you have watched the Pacers? The reason I ask that is that many of the people on this board used to ***** and complain that Jamaal would go through entire games without shooting AT ALL. (of course we won 75% of those games) Rick has tried to turn him into a scoring pg which from his body language and his poor shot selection is clearly not what he wants to be. Rick has tried to turn Jermaine into a banger and Jermaine is a finese player.

As far as Jack is concerned I think if he knew that a coach would get him the ball when he was hot he would be more controllable. I think the best example would be Allen Iverson. Jack is a lot like Iverson, his shot selection is poor but he will keep driving keep shooting and always gets back up after getting knocked down. He even *****es at the reffs a lot like Iverson. Some coaches have gotten a lot out of Iverson and some have gotten very little. Rick would get very little.

Rick is not the type of coach to try to make Jamaal Tinsley, of all players, a shooting PG.

Rick's style of playing is controling the tempo with solid defense, and grind it out offense. You take your time to get higher percentage shots.

It's obvious he doesn't coach the way you've described, or the Ps wouldn't constantly be shooting with less than 5secs left on the shot clock.

A coach would have to be on crack to think Jamaal would be a shooting PG. He's shot fundamentals are that of an elementary player. He can't even shoot with one hand.

Ragnar
04-05-2006, 04:26 PM
Rick is not the type of coach to try to make Jamaal Tinsley, of all players, a shooting PG.

Rick's style of playing is controling the tempo with solid defense, and grind it out offense. You take your time to get higher percentage shots.

It's obvious he doesn't coach the way you've described, or the Ps wouldn't constantly be shooting with less than 5secs left on the shot clock.

A coach would have to be on crack to think Jamaal would be a shooting PG. He's shot fundamentals are that of an elementary player. He can't even shoot with one hand.

I should have said scoring pg. The reason they are taking so many late shot clock shots is EXACTLY Ricks coaching he wants to use the entire shot clock. He hates it when they go down and score with time left on the clock. The reason those shots have been so bad lately as opposed to so good in the 61 win season is that our spacing has become very poor.

If you saw last nights game in the 3rd quarter when we built the lead was when Jamaal was throwing cross court passes to open players. After a few of these we had a 10 point lead and Rick took him out and put AJ in.

We did increase the lead after this because our backups were playing against their backups. But when the other team put their starters back in Rick failed to put ours back in. Thats when Rick lost that game. I cant believe how many of the people on this board cant see that.

At about the 8:30 mark I looked at my wife and said Rick has about 1 minute to put the starters back in or we will lose this game, because you cant give a young team playing at home in front of a raucus crowd ANY hope. She said I was crazy because we were up by 17 at the time. Well I was right we lost.

Since86
04-05-2006, 05:07 PM
I should have said scoring pg. The reason they are taking so many late shot clock shots is EXACTLY Ricks coaching he wants to use the entire shot clock. He hates it when they go down and score with time left on the clock. The reason those shots have been so bad lately as opposed to so good in the 61 win season is that our spacing has become very poor.

If you saw last nights game in the 3rd quarter when we built the lead was when Jamaal was throwing cross court passes to open players. After a few of these we had a 10 point lead and Rick took him out and put AJ in.

We did increase the lead after this because our backups were playing against their backups. But when the other team put their starters back in Rick failed to put ours back in. Thats when Rick lost that game. I cant believe how many of the people on this board cant see that.

At about the 8:30 mark I looked at my wife and said Rick has about 1 minute to put the starters back in or we will lose this game, because you cant give a young team playing at home in front of a raucus crowd ANY hope. She said I was crazy because we were up by 17 at the time. Well I was right we lost.

During the benches big run, three starters were in for the Bulls. Those being Sweets, Duhon, and Chandler.

From the 9:22 mark in the game, the Bulls NEVER had more than 3 starters in at a time.

9:22 to 4:39, Duhon was swapped with Hindrich. Both starters. And at :53 secs Deng was brought in for Sweets (both starters).

It's not like the Bulls made full lineup changes.

The Pacers were playing with two starters for a minute and a half during that run, with three starters for :43 secs, and four starters for 4 and a half minutes.

The lead was 11 when the Pacers matched the same number of starters, and that number was never lower than the Bulls' for the rest of the game.


Starters played against starters, bench against bench when the lead went from 11 to losing.

SoupIsGood
04-05-2006, 05:33 PM
Yes, I still want Rick to coach this team.

Yes, me too.

I could live with Adelman though.

CableKC
04-05-2006, 06:12 PM
I should have said scoring pg. The reason they are taking so many late shot clock shots is EXACTLY Ricks coaching he wants to use the entire shot clock. He hates it when they go down and score with time left on the clock. The reason those shots have been so bad lately as opposed to so good in the 61 win season is that our spacing has become very poor.
I can't tell from your post...is shot clock management a good or bad thing?

I don't know about you...but I hate it when someone brings the ball up court...takes a quick jumpshot before the rest of the team gets into any type of rebounding position then loses the ball once it clanks off the rim. If our team was a very good shooting team and we made a good # of those shots...then I wouldn't mind. But the Pacers aren't. I don't think its necessarily a bad thing that the rest of the team gets setup and the players have some time to get into position to rebound the ball.

Also.....I don't really know, so I'm asking.....but is it the coaches fault that the team has poor spacing?

or

Is it the players?

waxman
04-05-2006, 06:57 PM
The Pacers starters have trouble executing and staying on the same page for 48 minutes... hell for even 12 solid minutes. Most of the time they're running the offense half-assed, with half-assed screens and half-assed cutting which leads to poor spacing...poor timing...poor shots.

One could argue its coaching.... or lack of quality practice time with all your main pieces being healthy.

Last night it really seemed like the 2nd unit was playing with better fluidity and rhythm... probably because they've played more together as a unit this season.

DeS
04-07-2006, 09:07 AM
LT national team coach Antanas Sireika is now available!


He knows how to play without experienced (all star) players (he brought Lithuania's second-third unit to 5th place in last euro-championship);
He was who coached the win against USA (and won it with slow-footed defensive-less Pacers 3d-stringer being the main star and difference maker; also he won it with the fifteenth(?) hornets shooting guard (who is usually not registered for a game) as the second scoring option);
He won Euro championship gold;
He certainly knows how to play euro-style ball.


Be quick to get him ;)

Hicks
04-07-2006, 10:14 AM
If Bird hired this Antanas Sireika guy, it'd be fascinating. Not only to see how we play, but to see the majority of PD members' heads explode.

DeS
04-07-2006, 10:38 AM
If Bird hired this Antanas Sireika guy, it'd be fascinating. Not only to see how we play, but to see the majority of PD members' heads explode.
Yup - indeed :)

Bball
04-07-2006, 12:53 PM
I don't think its necessarily a bad thing that the rest of the team gets setup and the players have some time to get into position to rebound the ball.



Is that what they are doing when they dump the ball down low and then all campout and watch behind the 3pt line with the defender between them and the basket? :devil:

-Bball