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Anthem
04-02-2006, 01:47 AM
As I watch us lose game after game, I'm observing something interesting about myself: I've pretty much completely quit on this team. Not the Pacers, per se. But the collection of players we put on the floor. It's for a different reason than most of you, though. See, unlike most of the board, I like pretty much every one of our players.

I like Jermaine O'Neal. He's not the leader he aspires to be, he doesn't box out, and he whines (and crows) too much. Still, he gives you 20 and 10, has great interviews, and tries hard. He'd be easier to like if he wasn't consistently injured, but as long as the injuries aren't due to a lack of physical training it's hard to fault the guy. I think he'd be better off dropping 20 pounds, but he only gained the weight because the Pacers insisted on giving him consistent time at center. That's their mistake, and they're paying for it.

I like Jamaal Tinsley, Anthony Johnson, and Sarunas Jasiwhatever. Yeah, Jamaal's head is somewhere else right now. Yeah, he gets injured like crazy. But I absolutely love his game, and think that in the right system he'd be an all-star. AJ is what he is: a backup point guard. He's feeling pressure because he's got two guys behind him chomping for minutes, and a guy ahead of him that he'll never be as good as. I honestly think if Saras wasn't here, AJ would be playing better. But that's not to say I don't like Saras. I think our European friends overvalue him, but I think he could be a valuable contributor to the team if he learns from this year and comes ready to play at the start of next season. I even like Eddie Gill. He's a perfect 4th-string point guard. Knows the system, good on the bench, good in the locker room, and probably a good guy to practice against.

I even like Stephen Jackson. Yeah, he's the man everybody loves to boo, but he's actually a pretty decent player. It seems like he never misses when he makes a quick move (although he never makes when he waits). He's played first, second, and third fiddle, dealt with an ever-changing lineup, done his job, and never complained (to the fans, I mean). Obviously he complains too much to the refs, but then our whole team does.

------

While I like everybody we've got, I really think it's time to clean house. This team is just snakebit. I don't think they're ever going to mentally get over the psychological impact of the brawl and the betrayal. And even if they do, I'm not sure the fans will. Yeah, it might work if we had a long playoff run, but I think even if we go to the ECFs and lose to the Pistons at the buzzer in the 7th game, people would still say things like "What do you expect? They're not winners."

Unfortunately, we've lost a lot of assets. Bender's out, Croshere's out, and 3 tradable players have their contracts up. I continue to dislike the move for Peja. He's just eating Granger's minutes, and with an expiring contract we can't trade him. The two places he'd be interested in (Chicago and Toronto) aren't going to give him up in a sign and trade, since they can sign him outright.

I don't want to trade Granger or Harrison. They're major keys to the future. I'd be all for re-signing Fred Jones if we can get him at a reasonable price, and I'd be fine with keeping Saras to see if he can become and NBA point guard. Foster's absolutely worth keeping, but he's also extremely tradable. I'd re-sign Pollard if we can do it on the cheap. Yeah, he's a big man, but he's a big man with a bad back. Major danger.

So that's 6 players I'd like to keep. Other than that, though, I hope we clean house. I don't want a fire sale, but the reality is we don't need to have one. JO is one of the top 5 (top 3, IMO) PFs in the league. Tinsley's a great guy that needs a change of scenery. AJ will make a great backup for somebody. Despite how we complain, Jack's a good shooting guard in the right system. There's no need to give these guys away... they are all valuable players. Right now, though, I'm hoping they're more valuable for someone else than for us.

Jermaniac
04-02-2006, 01:53 AM
Trading Jermaine O'Neal is not nice

Anthem
04-02-2006, 02:04 AM
Trading Jermaine O'Neal is not nice
Well, maybe. It's a short list of guys I'd trade him for, that's for sure. But those guys are out there.

CableKC
04-02-2006, 02:22 AM
I guess if the question is who do we keep and who do we trade.....my roster is as follows:

PG - AJ / Sarunas / ????
SG - ???? / ???? / ????
SF - Peja / Granger / ????
PF - JONeal / Croshere
C - Foster / Harrison / Pollard

I know that many of you think that Granger should be starting....but I like him more as the 6th Man on the team still getting about 25-30 minutes a game. He can still be the primary backup SF and 3rd string PF behind Croshere.

I'm on the borderline with AJ......he seemed to do very well when he essentially split time with Sarunas when Tinsley was out....but didn't like the way he played after Tinsley came back. Unless we can get a decent backup PG back....then I wouldn't mind keeping him.

Trading SJax, Tinsley, Freddie and Gill should net us a new set of Guards. I have ZERO problem trading them away.

Before any of you question why on Earth I would want to let them go......I'm very close to not caring how we do for the rest of the regular season. As I feel that part of the problem is that we have talented players.....its just that many of them don't fit the Coaches style. If Carlisle let's players like JONeal, SJax, Tinsley and Freddie have free reign in the offense.....we would see more games like the loss against Miami.

I feel that despite the fact that many of us may not like the way he coaches....I think its cuz of the players that we have....we have too many players that want to be shooters. We need more roleplayers and less players that wants to put up great #s. Today's Buck's game highlighted how much of a very solid perimeter defender we need......I wished that Freddie was that answer....but he's too short to start and be depended on to be our primary defender at the Guard position. We need players like Mikael Pietrus, Raja Bell, Quinton Ross, Trenton Hassell....all solid perimeter defenders at the SG positions....that can come in a simply defend and if needed...put up the occasional point or two.

SoupIsGood
04-02-2006, 02:23 AM
Let's scrap everything and find a way to get Greg Oden on the team whenever he declares for the NBA.

Anthem
04-02-2006, 10:07 AM
Let's scrap everything and find a way to get Greg Oden on the team whenever he declares for the NBA.
You want to tank another season?

SoupIsGood
04-02-2006, 10:40 AM
You want to tank another season?


Nah not really.


Although, Chicago has a pick that could potentially be Oden.

Roaming Gnome
04-02-2006, 11:13 AM
Be careful what you wish for...
Sometimes rebuilding can be quick with only 2 to 4 years of suffering, but more often then not rebuilding could be what Detroit or Boston suffered. Some years of being horrible followed by nearly a decade of being mediocre.

Anyway, it is easier to fire a coach then it is to fire a team! Carlisle's days of getting a free pass from me are over!!!

Evan_The_Dude
04-02-2006, 02:17 PM
I know that many of you think that Granger should be starting....but I like him more as the 6th Man on the team still getting about 25-30 minutes a game. He can still be the primary backup SF and 3rd string PF behind Croshere.


The thing that scares me about that is looking at what happened with Al Harrington. You can only hold a guy with that much talent down for so long, then they won't want to be here anymore. Granger needs to be the starting 3 because his abilities are going to be vital to this teams success. I'd hate to see us lock Peja in for 6 years, and then have to rely on prayer in hopes that Granger won't bolt after his contract is up.

Shade
04-02-2006, 04:54 PM
Nah not really.


Although, Chicago has a pick that could potentially be Oden.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

Oden is vastly overrated.

Pacesetter
04-02-2006, 05:03 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

Oden is vastly overrated.

Really? Why do you think that?

Kstat
04-02-2006, 05:08 PM
He looks like David Robinson's clone to me....

Pacersfan46
04-02-2006, 05:22 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

Oden is vastly overrated.

I've played with the guy, and I say the same.

Just a hunch as much as anything, but I just don't think he's as good as advertised. I see Samuel Dalembert in him, not David Robinson, but only time will tell if he can get himself an offensive game.

Anthem
04-02-2006, 05:27 PM
Wild. We're 12 posts in, and nobody has yet disagreed with (or agreed with) my fundamental premise: that they're a good group of guys, but that change might be necessary simply for change's sake.

I thought everybody disliked every player on the team?

Shade
04-02-2006, 05:33 PM
Wild. We're 12 posts in, and nobody has yet disagreed with (or agreed with) my fundamental premise: that they're a good group of guys, but that change might be necessary simply for change's sake.

I thought everybody disliked every player on the team?

What am I supposed to do...disagree that you like every player on the team? :confused:

I don't like every player on this team, AND I think it should be changed. The talent is there, but the mental toughness is not.

As for Oden, I have seen nothing greatly impressive about him. He's good, but not as great as some make him out to be. He's a monster dominating children right now.

Aw Heck
04-02-2006, 05:48 PM
I think the Pacers just need a new starting backcourt. Tinsley can barely stay healthy for half a season. Johnson and Jasikevicius are strictly backups.

Jackson occasionally has good shooting nights and plays good defense, but he makes bad decisions with the ball. Jones is too short and also makes too many bad decisions with the ball to start.

I have no real problems with anyone else. O'Neal's injuries concern me, but I'm hoping that's just because of the weight he's put on. He's making big money and isn't performing or acting at the level of a Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett, but he still gives his all. He could be a better rebounder too, but he's good for 20 and 10, plus he's a good guy.

I like Peja, but I wouldn't mind sign-and-trading him to help improve other positions. Having Granger gives us the luxury of that option.

As for Oden, I'm not too impressed yet. He's a 7'1" center playing against kids about 6 inches shorter than him. He SHOULD dominate. I'm going to wait and see how he does at Ohio State before I make any serious judgments. I want to see how he plays against guys his own size. Then we'll see if he's more like Dwight Howard or Kwame Brown (I'm talking about hyped high school big men, not necessarily player types).

J_2_Da_IzzO
04-02-2006, 05:58 PM
I dont think its a 100% player problem but a 50/50 problem with Rick also to blame.

Rick wants to share out minutes and always takes the hot hand out of games to make the players happy but then this usually results in us losing the lead or disrupt us in some way. Now if he would just keep the starting 5 and 6th man out as much as the Pistons do I feel that we would be a much better team.

JO is more then capable of playing 35 minutes a game as is Peja and most other players on this team. JO and Peja should be on court as long as there happy with (which is probably 32/37 minutes). Im happy with Granger and Jax sharing minutes out now along with Tinsley and Johnson. Foster and Harrison can share minutes but Rick seems to always take out Peja and keep in Jax even though one could be shooting excellently and one bad.

If someones shooting as badly as Jax usually does then he shouldnt be on court, simple as. Tinsley often shoots terribly but Rick somehow seems its right to keep him on and make plays for him.

I think the main problem is the depth we have and Ricks stupidity combined. Maybe the best thing that could happen for this team is Fred leaving. As long as we got all these players who want minutes or Rick thinks deserves minutes then we wont get far. Im sure a new coach would be strict with who gets most minutes and so on.

Seed
04-02-2006, 06:02 PM
The talent is there, but the mental toughness is not.

The thing I find missing is the understanding of the players that this is A TEAM, and it should win and loose like one. I mean take AJ, S-Jax, or JO. These guys faced some challenges during their careers.. They are not that soft mentally, but for some reason, each time the team is loosing, they are trying to save the world all by themselves. For me this looks like a plain sign of disbelief in the capabilities of the team as a whole.

Transforming this group into a team was one of Rick's main responsibilities.

Unclebuck
04-02-2006, 08:28 PM
Whether we like the players or not is irrelevant. Can the team win, and the answer to that is obviously NO. So changes are needed.


But I don't consider it "rebuilding" to trade 6 or 7 players away. It depends on who you trade the players for. if it's for first round draft picks and players on the end of their contracts, then yes that is rebuilding. if it is for veterans, that is not rebuilding.

When Jalen was trading for Brad and Artest that was not rebuilding, but at the time the pacers were in deep trouble and never would have made the playoffs without that trade.

if the Pacers make 2 or 3 smart trades, they can be a 50 win team if not next season then the season after

Anthem
04-02-2006, 09:19 PM
But I don't consider it "rebuilding" to trade 6 or 7 players away. It depends on who you trade the players for. if it's for first round draft picks and players on the end of their contracts, then yes that is rebuilding. if it is for veterans, that is not rebuilding.

When Jalen was trading for Brad and Artest that was not rebuilding, but at the time the pacers were in deep trouble and never would have made the playoffs without that trade.

if the Pacers make 2 or 3 smart trades, they can be a 50 win team if not next season then the season after
Oh yeah, I agree with all of that.

We had more pieces last summer than this summer, though.

ChicagoJ
04-02-2006, 10:39 PM
Anthem, welcome to my hell.

:borg:

:D

pizza guy
04-02-2006, 11:08 PM
The thing I find missing is the understanding of the players that this is A TEAM, and it should win and loose like one. I mean take AJ, S-Jax, or JO. These guys faced some challenges during their careers.. They are not that soft mentally, but for some reason, each time the team is loosing, they are trying to save the world all by themselves. For me this looks like a plain sign of disbelief in the capabilities of the team as a whole.

Transforming this group into a team was one of Rick's main responsibilities.

This is something I noticed while watching the Pistons' game today. Against PHX, they were in a tight closing minute situation. Every person on Detriot trusted each other to make the right play, hit the shot, make the pass, get the rebound, whatever. And, the moment that it struck me that the Pacers do not have a cohesive team (not that I didn't know it, but it just popped into my head) was when Tayshaun Prince was talking to Chauncey Billups and Big Ben (I think) about the play either preceding or coming up. I realized, "the Pacers never do that - they don't communicate like that."

I'm ready for this team to be changed; I think we all are. Tins, Jax, Freddie are certainly headliners for me because they are all "me first" players. I think they each have talent to succeed, just elsewhere, with different people in different schemes. I like Pollard, but with his back, I don't know about re-signing him. Peja is wonderful and I love his game, but he gets in Danny's way a little, and Danny needs room to run because he's going to be great. I'm still behind JO; you don't find talent like his very easily - 20 and 10, plus 3 blocks a night? not easy to come by. I would like to see him drop the 20 lbs. and play exclusively at PF though and leave the C to Hulk. Harrison is maturing nicely IMO, and his size is certainly not something you can get from anywhere.

The inside of this team is not the major problem - JO, Peja, DG, Hulk, and Foster can all stay and can be a very good group. It's the outside that is the problem. The only one who I don't want to leave is Sarunas, because I think he can be very good with time, like any rookie. While AJ is a good back-up, we need a good starter who can effectively lead the team in any situation. Some believe that Jasik could, and I like that idea, but RC would have to let him get off the bench every once in a while. SJax does not fit here any longer. When we had Artest, Jackson was a good fit because we played a slower, tougher style. We can't do that any longer, so we need a different SG. Tinsley needs to be gone. As long as he is on this team, I will not feel good about the Pacers. Then, of course, Gill is Gill so it doesn't matter a whole lot if he stays or goes because he'll never really see the court either way.

Finally, Carlisle has been part of the problem. He's a good coach, but he's had the wrong guys and the worst luck. I'm a generally nice guy, so I'm not going to call for Carlisle's head quite yet. Though, I wouldn't cry if we got someone else.

So, my list of players who I'd like to see gone looks like this:
Tinsley
Jackson
Jones

Then, I'd like to keep:
JO
Danger
Hulk
Foster
Sarunas

Not pictured for reasons previously discussed:
Gill
Pollard
Peja

Anthem
04-03-2006, 01:41 AM
Anthem, welcome to my hell.

:borg:

:D
Fo reelz.

Except my hell is the polar opposite of yours. We're pretty close to where we were a year ago. I think all of the players are good but they collection is worse than the sum of its parts. You just think the players are bad.

The funny thing about opposites, though. Sometimes you go so far around that you meet on the other side.

Seed
04-03-2006, 02:39 AM
Every person on Detriot trusted each other to make the right play, hit the shot, make the pass, get the rebound, whatever.

That's exactly the mindset that's missing!



SJax does not fit here any longer. When we had Artest, Jackson was a good fit because we played a slower, tougher style. We can't do that any longer, so we need a different SG.

I agree with all you said, but I am quite hesitant about S-Jax. While I hate his horrific shots selection, I'm beginning to give more credit to his contribution on defense. Especially since Artest is gone. I mean, look at how and where we suffered against the Bucks. If we replace him, it must be for a very solid defender.
[/quote]



I realized, "the Pacers never do that - they don't communicate like that."

I wonder how strongly does Rick encourage this. Stuff like watching replays with the team after the game and talking them over. Encouraging team behavior on and off court. Its never too late for that.

ChicagoJ
04-03-2006, 11:17 AM
-snip- We're pretty close to where we were a year ago. I think all of the players are good but they collection is worse than the sum of its parts. You just think the players are bad.

I dunno, I think that's always been one of my points. Granted, its not been my #1 point so I haven't always articulated it.

These guys have been a very dysfuctional team for a long time and a big part of the "bad" that I see is the lack of synergy you're talking about.

RWB
04-03-2006, 03:29 PM
I'm just ready for an upgrade of our starting 5 in particular. Forget this supposed (no one believes nowanyway I suspect) deep bench philosphy and bring in some little money veterans like a Calbert Cheaney and Alan Henderson who have already stated they would like to come back home. Maybe this could help stabalize the environment.

CableKC
04-03-2006, 05:10 PM
The thing that scares me about that is looking at what happened with Al Harrington. You can only hold a guy with that much talent down for so long, then they won't want to be here anymore. Granger needs to be the starting 3 because his abilities are going to be vital to this teams success. I'd hate to see us lock Peja in for 6 years, and then have to rely on prayer in hopes that Granger won't bolt after his contract is up.
That's part of the problem......starting Granger would mean either letting Peja go....shifting Peja to the SG spot....or shifting Granger over to the starting PF spot ( with JONeal shifting over to C ).

I don't know what the best answer is....I just know one of the answers is to keep both is to make Granger the 6th Man.

Worst case scenario ( cuz I don't believe that they will really resign Peja cuz of the $$$$ factor ):

1 ) S&T Peja for a "more defensive minded but offensive-capable Starting SG"
2 ) Make Granger the starting SF
3 ) Trade SJax and Tinsley for $$$, future draft picks, bag of chips, a solid veteran backup SF that can play ( if needed backup SG minutes )
4 ) Sign a solid defensive/rebounding/shotblocking PF that can play the C-Spot if needed ( Fransisco Elson...hint hint ).
5 ) Resign Freddie while giving him enough to justify having him as the primary backup SG...but not enough make him the starting SG ( he's too short )
6 ) Resign Pollard to the vet minimum as a 4th string C that can come in for emergency ( as in when JONeal gets injured ).
7 ) Make AJ the starting PG but have him split 26/22 with Sarunas as the primary backup PG.

PG - AJ / Sarunas / ?????
SG - ????? / Freddie
SF - Granger / "Backup Vet SF that can play SG"
PF - JONeal / Croshere / "PF that can play C"
C - Foster / Harrison / "PF that can play C" / Pollard

The only injury prone player that we now have is JONeal. Once we get rid of JONeal.....its rebuilding time...and I don't think we need to go that far.

pizza guy
04-03-2006, 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pizza guy
SJax does not fit here any longer. When we had Artest, Jackson was a good fit because we played a slower, tougher style. We can't do that any longer, so we need a different SG.


I agree with all you said, but I am quite hesitant about S-Jax. While I hate his horrific shots selection, I'm beginning to give more credit to his contribution on defense. Especially since Artest is gone. I mean, look at how and where we suffered against the Bucks. If we replace him, it must be for a very solid defender.

While I constantly hate on SJax, I must admit that he does bring certain things to the table. He is a physically tough player, and he plays hard - through pain if he can, and leaves it on the court. He is also a respectable defender. It was certainly obvious in the Milwaukee game that we have NO perimeter D without SJax. But, that doesn't mean that we can't trade him for a defensive-minded SG with a good basketball IQ.

Anthem
05-29-2007, 04:24 AM
Wow, another blast from the past.

Sorry everybody for bumping these... it's just interesting to see these.