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Bball
03-31-2006, 03:46 AM
There's so much wrong with this team, and so many reasons that I grow to dislike it more every day, that I don't know where to start.

What happened to Pacer teams being about class and professionalism? Who decided to tip the scales the other way? Where did the drive to succeed go? With Reggie gone has the last scraps of Larry Brown's teachings finally left the team? Is it no longer possible to see this team "play the right way"? Can Artest really be blamed for all of this mess??

Honestly, watching these past few weeks and this game tonight all I could think of were questions.

Why did we pursue Sarunas so hard to leave him on the bench or play him out of his comfort zone?

What kind of braintrust do we have that would take Bender over Shawn Marion... when Marion played in Vincennes and has stated Reggie Miller is one of his favorite players (he even wears Reggie's number)?

Freddie Jones or James Jones? Does anyone else think we kept the wrong Jones?

How many chances should Tinsley get to show he's inconsistent and not a team player?

--
Note: Here's a thought that isn't a question. Just once I'd like to see Carlisle slam a clipboard to the ground in disgust when Freddie or AJ holds the ball for a TERRIBLE end of quarter possession (no passing, just a predictable prayer of a shot usually). The fact that he doesn't tells me either he wants them doing that...or he has no real control over this team.

Did anyone notice any Phoenix players holding the ball? They passed it with a zip and zeal and NOBODY swallowed the ball. Ever.

Is there a worse offense than the Pacers or a team with so many selfish players? I'd like to harp on our defense but our disjointed, selfish, stupid play on the offensive end wasn't going to help our defense any. ...Nor was it going to yield many offensive rebounds.

What does it say when I'm wishing we had Al "Black Hole" Harrington back?

Did anyone notice Freddie running into the teeth of the defense with no clue of his next move, jumping in the air with the ball, and then throwing away? I don't remember it happening! That would be a first!!! (So maybe there is a positive from tonight).

Does anyone think JO would've made a difference? I think he would've... We would've been buried deeper since what few defensive rebounds that were available would've likely ended up being second chance shots for the Suns (since JO can't be bothered to block out).

Thank God for Danny Granger. At least there is a young player to give me some hope for the future when several of these current players are gone (I think Peck called them a$$clowns...)

I can now officially state I don't want Carlisle back next year. I've been wondering and leaning that way for a while... I'm certain of it now. Throw out the eggtimer... Loosen the reins. Let the team players play, and sit the egotistical pretenders.

If management is so smart then why are James Jones, Brad Miller, Primoz Brezec, Al Harrington, Kevin Ollie (and probably a few others I'm not thinking of.... I suppose Dale and Antonio could be included here) no longer Pacers while we search for things these guys all bring to the court in one form or another? A deadeye shooter... a legit center with range... a durable and servicable center... a SF/PF that can score and play some defense... and a solid backup PG. Meanwhile, Bender's still a bust. JO is overrated and over-injured. Tinsley is fragile... mentally and physically... Our PG rotation is a mess. Our whole backcourt situation is a mess.

If someone told me next year that JO, Tinsley, and Freddie would be gone I wouldn't shed a tear. And if Sjax gets to go with them, I still wouldn't shed a tear. And I will drive them to the city or airport of their choice.... And coach Carlisle is welcome to come along.

Someone asked the other day why some of us think bad of Tinsley because he 'appears' to pout or his 'body lanquage' doesn't suit us, yet we don't appear to have a problem with Sarunas' comments to the foreign press. I didn't answer it then but I will answer it now. For myself the answer is simple:
I agree with what Sarunas is saying. I believe in more passing and less iso ball. I believe in having the players move without the ball and plenty of ball movement. And I totally wonder why the hell we went after him if we weren't going to use him properly and either take our lumps, or see it pay dividends as the season progresses. And if he believes he'd been better going to another team, he's probably right unless Bird/DW have plans for a major shakeup and giving him the chance to actually start and be the leader this team lacks.

I don't think there was really a good reason to shakeup the PG rotation and bring Tinsley back. On average, I don't think he is clearly our best PG. He's too inconsistent. He's too injury prone. And he's not a team player. In fact, I hate watching him play. Whining... pouting... egotistical... cancerous. He's everything I hate in a player.

If I had to name one overwhelming problem with this team it would be the lack of leadership. You can't just sign a contract and become a leader. You have to earn it. You can't just run out in front of everyone, or ask everyone to step back so that you can lead. It doesn't work like that. The cream will rise to the top. JO is not the leader this team needs, and unless he willingly gives up the role, then we are screwed as long as he is on the team. I'm not sure a new coach makes the difference there... but only if JO can accept a lesser role. And can the Simons afford to pay a player like JO the money he gets for a lesser role?

I'm very, very frustrated right now and this isn't all from one game. It's a combination of things. From seeing the team play without JO for several games playing pretty much exactly the way I want to see them playing... to seeing them go back to what I believe is the way Carlisle wants them to play (but they aren't good enough and it only exposes our weaknesses (IMHO).

Worse, this egg tonight tarnishes a very moving ceremony for Reggie Miller which only brought back memories of what we once had, and how close we once were to the promised land.


-BBall

Bball
03-31-2006, 04:05 AM
I think I had a question answered tonight...
This team is losing the ticket buying public quickly. The boobirds were out early tonight and louder than I can remember.

Since everybody left before the end of the game the players were spared what otherwise probably would've been a deafening roar of boos.

I didn't boo.... but I certainly understand.

-Bball

Peck
03-31-2006, 04:18 AM
I've been going to Pacer games since 1985 & I can tell you that I have never ever ever seen a player hated more by the home fans than Steven Jackson. It has gotten so bad now that I almost feel sorry for him. He misses a freethrow & people are booing him.

He's done a lot to bring on this stuff himself but it's a little over board also.

But other than that, I can tell you that the few people that straggle through my section that I hear just don't like this team at all.

The people that set behind me this game started out the night griping at J.O. & didn't end until they had complained about every player up to management.

Needless to say that the one thing worse than fan anger is fan apathy & right now they are just at the angry stage. But by mid-season next year they had better have this fixed or they will have apathy which translates into empty seats.

Bball
03-31-2006, 04:28 AM
I've been going to Pacer games since 1985 & I can tell you that I have never ever ever seen a player hated more by the home fans than Steven Jackson. It has gotten so bad now that I almost feel sorry for him. He misses a freethrow & people are booing him.

He's done a lot to bring on this stuff himself but it's a little over board also.

But other than that, I can tell you that the few people that straggle through my section that I hear just don't like this team at all.

The people that set behind me this game started out the night griping at J.O. & didn't end until they had complained about every player up to management.

Needless to say that the one thing worse than fan anger is fan apathy & right now they are just at the angry stage. But by mid-season next year they had better have this fixed or they will have apathy which translates into empty seats.


You just reminded me...
At one point Reb announced some silly contest and said:
"....the winner will get an autographed Steven Jackson _________" (I think it was a T-shirt but I don't remember...). The thing that stood out was I heard several boos just at the mention of this Steven Jackson autographed item.

I don't think there's much doubt that management will think Sjax has to go just for the reason that he's lost the fans and I don't see much hope of him winning them back. Unfortunately, I don't think that 'fixes' anything and so if TPTB get painted into that move I fear they will stop there and 'see how it goes' once he's moved.

I don't see Sjax as needing to be the first move on our list.

-Bball

Peck
03-31-2006, 04:36 AM
You just reminded me...
At one point Reb announced some silly contest and said:
"....the winner will get an autographed Steven Jackson _________" (I think it was a T-shirt but I don't remember...). The thing that stood out was I heard several boos just at the mention of this Steven Jackson autographed item.

I don't think there's much doubt that management will think Sjax has to go just for the reason that he's lost the fans and I don't see much hope of him winning them back. Unfortunately, I don't think that 'fixes' anything and so if TPTB get painted into that move I fear they will stop there and 'see how it goes' once he's moved.

I don't see Sjax as needing to be the first move on our list.

-Bball

Yeah, I heard that as well.

Actually it was more than just a few boo's, it was quite a few boo's.

D-BONE
03-31-2006, 07:21 AM
I don't think there's much doubt that management will think Sjax has to go just for the reason that he's lost the fans and I don't see much hope of him winning them back. Unfortunately, I don't think that 'fixes' anything and so if TPTB get painted into that move I fear they will stop there and 'see how it goes' once he's moved.

I don't see Sjax as needing to be the first move on our list.

-Bball

This same thought has concerned me, as well. I think TPTB can see beyond the crowds intense dislike of Jack and their own assesment of him. Hopefully, that means they don't just target him as the main off-season casualty.

Now, if we get something that helps us somehow in return for Jack, by all means jettison him. This is not defending him per se, but I do think that the general public's obvious derision of him could easily lead some to convert him into the scapegoat for the team's problems.

The issues have to run much deeper than just him. I would say that he need not be the first move on our list simply because if we want to really overhaul roster and bring in some serious new talent, we'll have to offer up more than Jack to get value in return. JO, Peja, Granger, Harrison, and Foster come to mind as guys who likely would command reasonable return value.

Skaut_Ech
03-31-2006, 08:34 AM
bball,

I know it seems simplistic, but I think we still have fallout from the incident. I think that over time, like a bad marriage, there were so many behind closed doors frictions and the like, that an accumulative effect has happened that translates to a lck of team unity.

I think Ron was the timebomb who's aftershocks are still being felt.

Like you, I severely question the usage of Saras. That is just plain nonsensical and horrible. They've damaged his confidence, bungled his usage and wasted mony, if this was their master plan for him.

I've shouted from the rooftops ever since it happened how letting JJ go over Freddie was a majorly boneheaded move. I'm a broken record, but Freddie will never be more than an Adrian Griffin, Aaron McKie type guy to me. JJ struck me as possibly being a lot closer to what we expected from Bednder.

Yeah, Carlisle is way WAY too stoic. Rick...stay the course, it'll get better. Donnie...stay the course, it'll get better. Man, give me someone with a strong vision and some ballbreaking resolve!

I literally don't care for just about every player on the team. Guys I like? Austin, Saras, Foster, Granger and Peja. That's it. Honest.

I can hardly remember, quite simply, not liking this team, but that day has come. I'm not a big blow up the team kind of guy, but I swear, if it was in my power, I'd "blow this team up", using Peja and Austin (yes, Austin) for senior leadership and get some smarter, harder working cogs in here.

Hit up Dallas over the summer. (Diop, MBenga?)
Keep thoise ties with GS. Talk to Memphis. Man.

Pacersin6
03-31-2006, 10:08 AM
Another note about Tinsley.

When the team came out for the second half warmups, JT didn't get out there until about 2 minutes before the start of the third. When he did finally grace us with his presence, he just sat on the bench not warming up with the team at all. My friend and I thought he was pouting because he wasn't going to play in the second half.

But, sure enough he started. IMHO that says a lot right there about him, and he used to be one of my favorite players

Unclebuck
03-31-2006, 10:14 AM
Bball, Kevin Ollie? - really. Why do we need 4 backup point guards. Your list of former players would have had more credibility if you left Ollie off. Primoz is not big loss either. As far as JJ goes, we he's shooting 41% and he gets wide open shots, he played well last night and yes he's a nice player, but we have Peja and Granger, we don't need JJ. He's a nice player, nice guy, but he's not a difference maker.

Hicks
03-31-2006, 10:14 AM
Yeah, I heard that as well.

Actually it was more than just a few boo's, it was quite a few boo's.

My theory on this is that did you notice how the crowd went from packed to half-full after the ceremony? I'm not saying it was half of the crowd, but maybe a large chunk of those people that left were fans that don't go to the games anymore because they don't like this team, and were only there for Reggie; this was their chance to tell Jackson how they felt.

Unclebuck
03-31-2006, 10:17 AM
My theory on this is that did you notice how the crowd went from packed to half-full after the ceremony? I'm not saying it was half of the crowd, but maybe a large chunk of those people that left were fans that don't go to the games anymore because they don't like this team, and were only there for Reggie; this was their chance to tell Jackson how they felt.



I think a good % maybe 40-50% had no interest in the game from the start they were only there because of Reggie's ceremony. To leave in the third quarter and the Pacers had it down to 9 and had a three in the air that would have cut it too 6, leaving at that time shows me they didn't care about the game.

I posted this in another thread, but the night as a whole was one of the worst experiences ever at a Pacers game. I don't blame Reggie, but the whole scene just disgusted me.

Ralph Snart
03-31-2006, 11:05 AM
The biggest problem I have isn't with the losing, it's with everyone's bad attitude. This team is beaten, you can see it in the coaching staff, and every single player. Last night, the team gave up after the first quarter.

What gets me is that last year was my favorite year as a Pacer's fan. We were missing all of our best players for most of the year, but everyone came out and played hard, and perservered. Us beating Boston in 7 games, and leading Detroit 2-1 made me very proud of the team.

Right now, I'm afraid of what this team is going to look like in the playoffs. If they end up getting swept, it's going to really depress me, I would rather they not make the playoffs at all.

One of two things needs to happen over the summer: 1) we need to trade the current leadership of our lineup (i.e. JO, Jackson, Tinsley), or 2) we need to get another coach.

Of the two options, I think the first one will be better, as I don't think any quality coaches will be on the market, and despite what has happened this year, Carlisle is a good coach.

I don't even care if we get roll players in return. I would much rather see Carlisle play a team of nobodies that try hard every night, I think a team like that would have more wins than the team we currently have.

McKeyFan
03-31-2006, 11:25 AM
There's so much wrong with this team, and so many reasons that I grow to dislike it more every day, that I don't know where to start.

-Bball

Same here.

You did a pretty good job getting started, however.

UB, I think BBall's point is that nearly all or all the players he mentioned are starting for other teams, including Ollie. Could he have helped us this year better than Gill? You bet.

Could Primoz have helped us? You bet.

Antonio? Of course.

JJ. Me thinks so.

Brad. No brainer.

All those guys have pretty good attitudes, as well. So TPTB, in exchange for these now-starters we gave up, display the wonderful attitudes instead of SJax, Tins, JO and David Harrison.

grace
03-31-2006, 12:33 PM
My theory on this is that did you notice how the crowd went from packed to half-full after the ceremony? I'm not saying it was half of the crowd, but maybe a large chunk of those people that left were fans that don't go to the games anymore because they don't like this team, and were only there for Reggie.

:wave::wave::wave::wave:

grace
03-31-2006, 12:37 PM
I think a good % maybe 40-50% had no interest in the game from the start they were only there because of Reggie's ceremony. To leave in the third quarter and the Pacers had it down to 9 and had a three in the air that would have cut it too 6, leaving at that time shows me they didn't care about the game.

I posted this in another thread, but the night as a whole was one of the worst experiences ever at a Pacers game. I don't blame Reggie, but the whole scene just disgusted me.

Had the game at least been competative I think more people would have stayed. You also have to take into account that it's a TNT game on a Thursday. Some people had to be at work at 8 AM and some people had to go out of town the next day.

Peck
03-31-2006, 02:52 PM
The biggest problem I have isn't with the losing, it's with everyone's bad attitude. This team is beaten, you can see it in the coaching staff, and every single player. Last night, the team gave up after the first quarter.

What gets me is that last year was my favorite year as a Pacer's fan. We were missing all of our best players for most of the year, but everyone came out and played hard, and perservered. Us beating Boston in 7 games, and leading Detroit 2-1 made me very proud of the team.

Right now, I'm afraid of what this team is going to look like in the playoffs. If they end up getting swept, it's going to really depress me, I would rather they not make the playoffs at all.

One of two things needs to happen over the summer: 1) we need to trade the current leadership of our lineup (i.e. JO, Jackson, Tinsley), or 2) we need to get another coach.

Of the two options, I think the first one will be better, as I don't think any quality coaches will be on the market, and despite what has happened this year, Carlisle is a good coach.

I don't even care if we get roll players in return. I would much rather see Carlisle play a team of nobodies that try hard every night, I think a team like that would have more wins than the team we currently have.

I want to take what Ralph has touched on & go with it.

Let me ask everybody something. Is there anything to my theory that some of the guys feel as though they are never rewarded with playing time for good play?

Why bust your @ss if Jermaine O'Neal is slotted for so many min. a game no matter how he is playing? Why bust your @ss if no matter how good you play Jamaal Tinsley is going to start no matter how he is playing or how you are playing? Why worry about striving hard if Steven Jackson will get to make whatever mistakes & still play almost 40 min. a game?

Round pegs into square holes.

When did this team start to faulter the second time around? When we stopped going with what was working & started to force the system back to prepare for Jermaine & Jamaal.

Yes, I know the schedule was much easier then but go look at all the aftergame thoughts on that & you will see where I kept saying they were gradually changing the offense. Once it changed all the way our team has tanked.

We have parts that do not fit together at all.

Bball
03-31-2006, 03:04 PM
Bball, Kevin Ollie? - really. Why do we need 4 backup point guards. Your list of former players would have had more credibility if you left Ollie off. Primoz is not big loss either. As far as JJ goes, we he's shooting 41% and he gets wide open shots, he played well last night and yes he's a nice player, but we have Peja and Granger, we don't need JJ. He's a nice player, nice guy, but he's not a difference maker.

We don't need 4 backup PG's but then if we were settled at the PG position we wouldn't have 4 backup PG's now. Supposedly we've been searching for a backup for quite some time... It seems we had a right fair backup that would not have been too expensive and let him walk.

I could see JJ playing a SG role... at least in a Steve Kerr type capacity. And whether he's a difference maker or not he is a 'character' guy and someone the fans can be proud of. I'm not sure we're well-stocked with 'difference makers' as it is and I wonder if just getting some more good character guys on the team would be the biggest 'difference maker' we need these days anyway.

And last I heard, it was no guarantee Peja would be back or that TPTB can afford him. God knows if I was him I wouldn't be back without lots of promises, and a definable vision, from management.

-Bball

CableKC
03-31-2006, 03:57 PM
Be careful about what you wish for when it comes to changing the current way the offense is run.

After listening to Carlisle's show on Tuesday and hearing his comments about Tinsley jacking up the ball 17+ times and how he "trusts" Tinsley when he is on the floor.....I think we will see more games like the horrific loss against the Heat where our "Score first don't look to pass out" players will dominate the ball more often and try to shoot their way out of a slump.

I realized that there maybe a reason why we can't run a "free flowing...less offensive plays called by the Coach" offense with players like SJax, Tinsley....and to a lesser degree....AJ and Freddie. Based off of their "black hole" mentality.....do you really want to have any of those players freely decide how to run the offense and when to shoot the ball?

If we get more players like Peja, Foster, Sarunas and Croshere in place of players like SJax, Tinsley, AJ and Freddie........then I think that we can have the type of offense that many of us would want. But if we don't lose any 3-player combination of SJax, Tinsley, AJ and Freddie....then I feel that we have to have a "Controlled" offense.

Kegboy
03-31-2006, 04:13 PM
:wave::wave::wave::wave:

Yeah, but we didn't boo anybody.

grace
03-31-2006, 04:24 PM
Yeah, but we didn't boo anybody.

No, but I certainly wanted to turn around and punch that guy in the face.

Bball
03-31-2006, 04:39 PM
Skaut,
I just noticed your signature:

"I don't mind people second-guessing whatever moves are made. I will never try to force something when it's not working out. If that means admitting that (drafting Milicic) didn't work out, then so be it."

--Joe Dumars, A GM who can operates from smarts, not ego

And people wonder how the Pistons have managed to get themselves in the position that they are in....

"A rolling stone gathers no moss"

---
What are your thoughts on the Pacers' coaching?

-Bball

Arcadian
03-31-2006, 05:01 PM
This team is a team in transition and no one is sure about the direction it is going in. I can't say I am thrilled about a team built around players like Saras and Peja. I am afraid of having a softer team in favor of a higher scoring team.

Skaut_Ech
03-31-2006, 05:28 PM
This team is a team in transition and no one is sure about the direction it is going in. I can't say I am thrilled about a team built around players like Saras and Peja. I am afraid of having a softer team in favor of a higher scoring team.

But then you have to wonder about the impact of being in a great system affects that. Why do I say that?

I thought the same thing about the Spurs when they got Ginobilli and Parker.

Things is, they have such a solid, focused, system, thoses guys were utilized correctly and taught Spurs D. Makes me wonder if the Spurs had acquired Saras and Peja, if they might not have done the same things, so to speak, Manu and Parkers are doing.

I don't thunk it's the players in this case. I think it's the Pacer's system.

DisplacedKnick
03-31-2006, 05:32 PM
This team is a team in transition and no one is sure about the direction it is going in. I can't say I am thrilled about a team built around players like Saras and Peja. I am afraid of having a softer team in favor of a higher scoring team.

If I were a Pacer fan I'd hope the team would come to be built around Granger, JO and Harrison, with Peja in as an outside shooter but TPTB ready to move him pretty easily.

You need help at PG - if he comes out the draftee I'd be looking for is Williams from UConn.

The biggest thing I see though is a lack of focus - very un-Carlisle-like. I don't get the sense watching the team that the thought of valueing and getting the most out of every possession - on either offense or defense - is there. There just doesn't seem to be a sense of what the team wants to do. I've always liked Tinsley until this season. I wonder if the 20-game stretch last year where he averaged 20ppg ruined him.

Fireball Kid
03-31-2006, 05:44 PM
Something has to be done with the center position, the shooting guard position and the point guard position. I think we should get rid of both Tinsley and Johnson because I do not enjoy watching either of those guys play when there on the court. I'm not saying Sarunas should start, i'm saying we need a better starting pass-first point guard thats willing to get his teammates involved.

This team needs a defensive-minded shooting guard. Way too many scorers in the lineup(when healthy).

If David Harrison can become a better rebounder and a better shot-blocker, than I think he should be the starting center in the future. But I do think we need another big man.



Why did we let James Jones go again?

Arcadian
03-31-2006, 05:44 PM
Well, it's unfair to compare our talent to the Spurs talent. I agree this team needs changes but I think we are still overvaluing how talented our players are as individuals.

The bottom line is I don't think we are that good to begin with. I think we have a lot of great back up players but not starting material. Immaturity and a non-complentary roster may factor into it but a new system won't make us contenders.

Arcadian
03-31-2006, 06:00 PM
If I were a Pacer fan I'd hope the team would come to be built around Granger, JO and Harrison, with Peja in as an outside shooter but TPTB ready to move him pretty easily.


That's what I am hoping for. I'm not sold on Harrison but and willing to give him a couple years because I want JO at PF.