View Full Version : Odd thoughts about being pummled by the Suns....

03-31-2006, 03:40 AM
This is becoming a recurring theme here. We lose & I come on here & say that I have no idea what to do.

I have been saying, for what seems like a hundred times, that you just have to forget these games & move on.

Well, there isn't that much left to move on to. We have 11 games left & frankly we are in no shape to make the playoffs. Don't get me wrong I know we will make the playoffs but as it stands right now that is all we are doing. No team needs to fear us as we are currently playing.

Let's look at this shall we.

Played with fire? Yes or No?

Played solid defense? Yes or No?

Played a well executed offense? Yes or No?

Now let's go one further, how long has it been since you could answer yes to any of the above?

If your like me, it's been awhile.

So I again come asking the following? At what point in time do we say that the Coach has lost the team?

I'm sorry but you can have players have bad games, you can even have several players have many bad games. But when you have a total failure the way we do then it's more systemic than just saying it was a bad game or set of games.

If it was just missing shots then you could chalk that up as just missing some shots but anybody who's watched this team can tell you that it goes a lot deeper than that.

I think Bird, Walsh, whoever has to make a decision & make one quick at the end of this season. They have to either give this coach a new core group of players to deal with or they have to get a new coach.

My preferance at this point would be both. I want a new core group of players & I want to go in a differant direction on the floor as well.

Don't get me wrong I still think Rick is a great coach & not everything is his fault, heck with the circumstances he's been dealt it would be easy to argue that not much of this is his fault. But no matter if it's his fault or not I do not believe the players are responding to him at all anymore.

When you have Kevin Lee, Slick Leonard & Mark Boyle all pointing out on the radio that the team appears to be sleepwalking (they didn't say these words but it was certainly my perception particularly with Lee on the post game show) somebody needs to kick someone in the @ss.

I understood those who said we had to put J.O. & J.T. back in the lineup just to see where we could get with them, I didn't agree with it but I understood.

However I think what we have is that we are clearly pounding round pegs into square holes.

This team has no flow to it at all & yes you can say that some of it is due to lack of practice time because of the heavy schedule & injuries. But guess what, good teams over come these things.

We are not a good team.

I was going to go on & on about what changes I thought should be made, but now is not the time. In the post season you can count on a position by position breakdown but for now I'll try & let it go.

But I now fully stand by my thoughts on this. Rick Carlisle has lost this team.

Can he get them back? I don't know, but he's got 11 games this season to try.

Ok, let's move on.

I make no secerets about this. I have always thought that the Brad Miller for Scot Pollard trade was the worst trade we have ever made in modern times. Yes, I know the Tom Owens trade for the draft pick that could have been for Jordan was worse but we would have picked Sam Bowie as well so who knows.

Again, that is just my opinion so please let's not argue about that here, I'm just using it to referance this next part.

I now fully believe that tradeing away Al Harrington for Steven Jackson was as bad if not maybe worse.

Talent wise it was a fair swap. On the court they produce about the same thing.

However I am now fully convinced that while Uncle Reggie was the inspirational & example leader I believe that Al Harrington was the vocal leader of that team & a player that was respected by both the young guys & the old guard.

Al was a good citizen. I don't care about the "black hole" as many of you labeled him because I wonder what you think when you see Jax doing what he does.

Al was just a good player but more importantly he was a good example of players doing what was asked of them without causing distraction to the team.

When all of the old players were out there with Reggie did you see the one player who didn't fit in that age group? It was baby Al who was there honoring Reggie.

I saw him & then I thought about Ron Artest & I had bile in my throat.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying what I'm saying about this trade to down Jackson at all.

I am p!ssed beyond belief that we chose Lucifer to stay on our team & sent Al away.

As the old knight from Indiana Jones & the last Crusade said "He chose poorly".

We chose the shiny jewel encrusted cup when we should have been looking for the cup of a carpenter & in the end our team was decayed into dust.

Al Harrington was no false tough guy either. I have recently read some quotes by our illustrious leader about Udonis Haslem. Ahem, well needless to say the only time I've ever seen Mr. Toughman do anything against anybody was against a Detroit fan who is as fat as me who was on his knees getting up.

Al Harrington never had to speak this kind of crap, if he had to by physical he would.

Why am I going on & on about this? I have no idea, I'm just at a loss.

BTW, to my friends from Europe. Saras got the second loudest ovation of the night (Reggie obviously got the biggest) which should make you guys happy. Because he has won over the fan base for the most part & I think it's fair to say that the majority of fans in there last night feel as though what is going on with him & Carlisle is bogus.

He also hit some good shots & moved the ball along very well. He played defense like every other guard on our team played defense so don't let them B.S. you into beleiveing that his defense was worse than Jamaal's or A.J.'s during this game.

Granger looked good. Harrison looked better than he has of recent but that isn't saying much.

Foster looked very frustrated, I think this season is weighing heavy on him.

Croshere came in & kicked @ss.

Man I wish I had something better to say about this game or this team. I don't beleive for one min. though that this is because of the Artest thing, this team has deeper problems than that.

A question for Mark Boyle, hell I don't even know if he reads my long blatherings, but if for some reason you do let me ask this. Does Slick seem as disgusted with the team as the very few min. I've heard him on the radio? From the few times I've heard him it sounds like he doesn't think much of the group. I know individually he likes the players but as a group it sounds like he's kind of given up on them. Or has he?

BTW, James Jones looked good out there. Second round draft pick in two years for him right?:unimpress

Well let's end with some fruit.


ahhhhhhhhhh who am I trying to kid?


Late Edit*****

I almost forgot the one really big positive of the night, well besides seeing Dale & Reggie, I got to meet one of my long time idols on the internet. Doug from Ohio & his son were in town & I had the great pleasure of meeting them before tipoff.

Doug informed me that he not only is coming to the party tommorrow but he is going to be able to stay late & hit the Perkins thing with us. Oh God this is wonderfull, if you people thought I was biter about old buggeyes (sorry for Doug's sake I had to throw that out there) wait till you meet Doug. This is going to be fun.

03-31-2006, 04:06 AM


03-31-2006, 04:18 AM
Can't really disagree. I found myself flipping channels during the game, and I don't even get to see many. Jay may be right, maybe we should just get 15 new players.

I hate watching this team.

03-31-2006, 06:25 AM
I agree. I have seen 2 games this year, last nite was one. They looked liked they wanted to be anywhere else but there. There was no joy, no spark. The suns were shooting open jumpers all nite and we had point guards running into a crowd firing up crap. Like Peck said, there was no flow, no energy. This is a team that is lost. I remember a long rebound and it came and bounced on the floor and up into the air again, no Pacer even remotely thought about trying to running it down. If there was a coaches "plan" out there, it wasn't obvious what it was.

03-31-2006, 07:09 AM
PECK-Glad you touched on JO's quotes in the wake of his tiff with Udonis Haslem. They really bothered me, too. It did appear that Haslem completely overreacted in the heat of battle. I thought he looked foolish and punk-like.

However, JO never seems to be able to rise above this and just move on. Has to get his little macho one-up dig quote to the press as we know he's prone to do.

Just say something like well I thought he lost his cool, but it was the heat of competition and I wasn't going to back down. Those things happen with the intensity of play sometimes and you just have to move forward and forget about them.

I know it's not a game for the faint of heart and emotions run high, but it's not like this type of response from JO is the exception as opposed to the norm.

As far as the team, blow it up! Carlisle can only return if the roster looks significantly different because, for whatever reason, this group as a whole no longer respondsto him whatsoever.

I'm a little hesitant to just say send RC packing, too, because I question whether we'll come up with anything as good. I can't say that I would not understand a decision to part ways with him though. Most important in my mind is significant player change, starting with some of our so-called stars. If anybody wants them anymore.

03-31-2006, 08:16 AM
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03-31-2006, 08:29 AM
About the coach: He shouldn't go no matter what. Rick Carlisle is a great if not brilliant coach. He has proven that here over the last few years. I don't think it's fair to judge him with all of the flux we've had roster-wise. Also, who can we get that is going to be better. Yeah, yeah, we can get someone that leaves the hot hand in longer and has less iso but in the end, with Carlisle we get great defense and a great strategist no matter what. And I am still not quite sold that he is bad on offense.

About the roster: I am reserving judgment til after this season. The 20 or so games that this core will get to play together will be enough to determine what should happen in my eyes.

And all of this from a sunshine brigader.

p.s. Peck, I never say this, but I enjoy your odd thoughts always. I never read official recaps anymore...nice job

03-31-2006, 08:55 AM
Great post Peck. Uncle Buck told me 3 weeks ago I was crazy when I said this team was losing it. He said "have you seen them play lately." This was after they had a good 2 week stretch and won some road games. I didn't like the way they were winning - they were still lacking a fire. Now the wheels have fallen off because the intensity isn't there, they aren't listening to the coach, they aren't putting forth the effort and they are playing for their own agendas. This team needs to be blown apart. Keep Granger, Harrison, Sarunas, AJ, Foster, Cro because of his contract expiring and maybe Freddie. The rest of the guys need to find new homes. This team needs to find team oriented players. This team needs to find an identity and a leader. It has none of these things. The problems with this team are not talent related - they are team related. This group of guys do not work well together. Their styles are not complimentary and you have a supposed 'leader' in JO who deep down is not a leader but until he changes his address he will never be able to step away from that title.

Another huge issue with this team is their durability. It is no coincidence that this group has been bitten the last few years by the injury bug. You have too many guys playing out of position, trying to do much on their own and in some cases not working hard enough in the off season. I don't see Tinsley or JO ever playing more than 55 games a year with this team.

I think Carlisle has done a great job up until this year. He has seemed to have lost this team. The problem is that he has no recourse because he not only lost the starters but he has lost most of the bench as well. The only recourse a coach has is to sit someone who doesn't listen but you can't do that if the player you replace him with doesn't listen either!

I thought about starting a thread asking where this Pacer team ranks in the list of alltime worst Pacer teams. I was having a hard time thinking of one that is worse than this one when you factor in talent level, expectations, experience and effort level. The 80's teams were awful but they didn't have much talent or experience. They always seemed to give a good effort though. This group doesn't. I would love to be proven wrong on all of these counts but I don't think it will happen.

03-31-2006, 09:37 AM
I'm still not ready to say that Rick has lost the team, but make no mistake once I'm ready to say that then yes Rick does need to go. Let's see how they respond to a few days off and a couple of practices.

As far as the roster goes, I said back in December that Artest was not the only change that was needed.

Slick Pinkham
03-31-2006, 09:46 AM
I just can't figure out this team and I'm starting to question my emotional investment in them.

My wife wanted to watch "My Name is Earl" during the second quarter, and it seemed like a good idea to me, as long as I had the clicker and could cut to the halftime ceremony as soon as it started.

My Name is Earl was certainly way more entertaining than the game. The ceremony was great though, and the pregame clips on Reggie.

Knucklehead Warrior
03-31-2006, 10:25 AM
My wife went in the other room to watch Earl. In a couple of minutes I joined her. We never went back.

03-31-2006, 10:38 AM
It is interesting how you used the term kick @ss. That is exactly what I think we need in a coach right now. We need a Jerry Sloan martinet or Slick Leonard with a hockey stick... who isn't intending to play hockey.

And this is something that I think Carlisle can't do. He did not originally get the job when Bird left, and one of the reasons I heard over and over is that the players just didn't like him. I think he was a bit hard on them, not real well liked, and in spite of his basketball IQ... it didn't work.

And by going throught that process, I think it has kind of casterated Rick a bit. If he is too strong he feels he will lose the players, if he is too soft they sleep walk. Sometimes it isn't the fault of the coach, but the players just need to hear a new voice. And quite frankly, I think Carlisle deserves some new scenery. To quote the old lady from Hoosiers "The sun don't shine on the same dog's @ss every day, but mister you ain't seen a ray of light since you've been here."

As weird as it may sound, I'm a huge Carlisle fan, but I think it is in everybody's best interest if he gets a fresh start somewhere else. I'd love to keep him in the organization, but I figure he'll want to keep coaching.

03-31-2006, 10:52 AM
Perhaps Rick hasn't lost the team so much as given up on them... Or maybe it's the same thing.

Ralph Snart
03-31-2006, 11:11 AM
I just want to see Rick yell at someone. Last night on the broadcast, he was yelling something at Jack, I couldn't make out what it was, but we could use some Bob Knight *** kicking right now.

03-31-2006, 11:17 AM
I just want to see Rick yell at someone. Last night on the broadcast, he was yelling something at Jack, I couldn't make out what it was, but we could use some Bob Knight *** kicking right now.

He yelled at Granger a couple of times. Rick was not in a good mood last night he was yelling at a lot of the players. I don't really buy the argument that Rick is too stoic or too easy on the players. I think he's a lot tougher on them than we know.

The NBA is not college, a Bob Knight a kicking might work one time, but that is it

03-31-2006, 01:03 PM
Yeah he yells at Granger and Harrison, ohh big man yelling at 2 young players. He has never in his coaching stint with us yelled at JO,Jack,Tinsley,AJ during the game never.

Harrison makes a bad play Harrison get your *** out of the game.
Jack makes 45 bad plays, he Jack I'm going to call 7 ISO's in a row for you, please dont get mad at me.

He has lost this team and its clear that none of these guys actually care about what he is telling them.

03-31-2006, 01:07 PM
Yeah he yells at Granger and Harrison, ohh big man yelling at 2 young players. He has never in his coaching stint with us yelled at JO,Jack,Tinsley,AJ during the game never.

You don't know that. You don't know who he yells at or who he doesn't yell at in the huddle

03-31-2006, 01:12 PM
Stephen Jackson playing stupid like he does and taking all those out of control shots, tells me alot about how he gets on vets.

Ralph Snart
03-31-2006, 01:15 PM
He yelled at Granger a couple of times. Rick was not in a good mood last night he was yelling at a lot of the players. I don't really buy the argument that Rick is too stoic or too easy on the players. I think he's a lot tougher on them than we know.

The NBA is not college, a Bob Knight a kicking might work one time, but that is it

I will take the one time.

I want to see this team fight for something, from top to bottom. Last night we were getting beaten down the court after making a freaking basket. Someone needs to step up and be a leader. Someone needs to start calling guys out that aren't putting the effort in.

Big Smooth
03-31-2006, 09:29 PM
I think Rick has lost the team for the moment. That isn't to say we are seeing a Larry Brown-like flameout. I believe Rick can get them back next season with a different group of players.

Adversity should make the right group of guys grow closer. With this group, it's tearing them apart.

I'd make some player changes before I started considering a coaching change.

The guys I'd like to see stay are Granger, Peja, Harrison & Saras. Out of the remaining players not mentioned there, I think the P's could put together a trade that would make the pieces fit into place.

04-01-2006, 12:21 AM
Who cares if he has lost this team, it will be a lot different next year anyway.

04-01-2006, 01:08 AM
Who cares if he has lost this team, it will be a lot different next year anyway.

Please explain?


04-01-2006, 02:03 AM
The Al for SJax likely will go down as my least favorite Pacer trade. Not only did we keep the wrong player we got back the wrong player as well.

I agree that Al was a leader. Al was to JO what Mark Jackson was to Reggie.