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pizza guy
03-31-2006, 01:10 AM
So, this entire season, I've been carrying a sig that was a quote from KStat. He being the resident Pistons' fan (yes, there are more...), I saw his bold statement and decided to track it. Now, with only a handful of games left, the time has come to call you out on it. KStat, was your prediction that Al Jefferson would be a better PF than Walker correct?

Jefferson: 59 gms (7 started), 18 mpg, .499 fgp, 0-4 (.000) 3pt, .642 FT, 5.1 rpg, .5 apg, .51 spg, .78 bpg, 1.05 TO, 2.8 PF, 7.9 ppg.

Walker: 71 gms (10 started), 26.3 mpg, .435 fgp, 120-334 (.359) 3pt, .617 FT, 5.2 rpg, 2.1 apg, .56 spg, .35 bpg, 1.82 TO, 2.3 PF, 12.0 ppg.

Kstat
03-31-2006, 01:15 AM
The fact that Antoine Walker is Antoine Walker makes me correct.

I don't think you would find one GM in the NBA that would take Walker over Jefferson right now.

What you don't see in Walker's stats are his horrible, horrible decisions in late-game situations.

I'll admit I expected Al Jefferson to play more this season, but there was a stretch in the season where he played a lot and dominated inside.

Jermaniac
03-31-2006, 01:23 AM
Alot of people would rather have Martell Webster then Fred Jones too, doesnt mean that Martell is having a better season then Fred now does it.

pizza guy
03-31-2006, 01:24 AM
Oh, don't get me wrong, I am in no way a 'Toine fan. I posted the stats so we could get a rough idea, because to tell you the truth, I haven't watched either that much. I would take AlJeff over 'Toine anyday because I simply don't like Walker. But, I'm getting sick of that part of my sig, so, I thought I'd throw it up to discussion.

Anthem
03-31-2006, 01:55 AM
Well, Jefferson's missed a lot fewer 3-pointers...

HulkSmash!
03-31-2006, 02:24 AM
Ofcourse most GMs would rather have Jefferson. He's 10 years younger and has a much higher upside. That wasnt the question in the signature, now was it?.

Kstat
03-31-2006, 02:26 AM
I'd give Al Jefferson a slight edge this year. He's performed better than Walker when his number has been called.

Jermaniac
03-31-2006, 02:29 AM
I'd give Al Jefferson a slight edge this year. He's performed better than Walker when his number has been called.I bet you would. Have you ever in your life admited to being wrong about something? Seriously.

Moses
03-31-2006, 01:40 PM
While Kstat does never admit when he is wrong, Fatoine is Fatoine.


I mean, that's almost self explanatory.

Shade
03-31-2006, 01:44 PM
We badly need a "spin" smilie. :chuckle:

travmil
03-31-2006, 02:52 PM
Walker has had the better season. He's played more minutes, played more games, scored more points, gets more rebounds, and has done it on a better team.

Seriously K, suck it up, you got this one wrong.

Since86
03-31-2006, 03:03 PM
While I hardly ever stick up for KStat, Fatione and Al's numbers are very similiar with Al getting 8mins less a game. Let's break the numbers up on a per 48min basis shall we.

Al per 48mins - 13.6 rpg 1.3 apg 1.36 spg 2.08 bpg 2.8 TO 7.47 pf 21.06 ppg
AW per 48mins- 9.5 rpg 3.8 apg 1.02 spg 0.64 bpg 3.3 TO 6.13 pf 21.90 ppg

travmil
03-31-2006, 03:06 PM
It's not fair to use per 48 minute stats as a valid comparison. I would rather base the quality of each players season on what really happened, rather than what might have happened had each player played 48 minutes. And in my opinion, based on reality, Walker had a superior season to Jefferson.

Jermaniac
03-31-2006, 03:09 PM
Per 48 minutes stat is the most useless stat in the NBA. Jefferson plays 8 minutes less the Fatoine for a reason and thats because he isnt as good as him. Fatoine is playing those extra 8 minutes on one of the best teams in the NBA. Al Jefferson cant start for the Celtics. Walker is having a better season, period.

travmil
03-31-2006, 03:11 PM
Per 48 minutes stat is the most useless stat in the NBA.

Second most useless. I still think +/- is more useless.

Fool
03-31-2006, 03:18 PM
Agreed. Its not like the Celtics don't want Jefferson to play more.

bmac
03-31-2006, 03:26 PM
Well if Kstat can go out on a limb so can I. Next year, Danny Granger will be better than James Jones. You can quote me on that.

Since86
03-31-2006, 03:27 PM
Per 48 minutes stat is the most useless stat in the NBA. Jefferson plays 8 minutes less the Fatoine for a reason and thats because he isnt as good as him. Fatoine is playing those extra 8 minutes on one of the best teams in the NBA. Al Jefferson cant start for the Celtics. Walker is having a better season, period.

So Al is putting up equal to better numbers than 'Tione, yet Al isn't as good?

This opinion coming from a guy who's been quoted as saying "JO > Wilt."


The real reason Al's mpg have been down, is because he's been injured quite often this season, but why would I expect you to know that?

Jermaniac
03-31-2006, 03:28 PM
Go look in the mirror and slap the first thing you see if you actually thought I was serious about JO being better then Wilt, herb.

Since86
03-31-2006, 03:40 PM
Go look in the mirror and slap the first thing you see if you actually thought I was serious about JO being better then Wilt, herb.

Considering you have an aneurysm anytime negativity and JO is in the same sentence, who knows when you're joking.

rel
03-31-2006, 03:46 PM
Well if Kstat can go out on a limb so can I. Next year, Danny Granger will be better than James Jones. You can quote me on that.

Danny Granger is already better than James Jones

Jermaniac
03-31-2006, 03:52 PM
Danny Granger is already better than James JonesEasily, JJ isnt close to Danny.

Kegboy
03-31-2006, 04:18 PM
Miami would take Jefferson right now, and we all know it.

Walker's stats may be better, but they're not that much better, especially when you consider the roles they play for their teams.

travmil
03-31-2006, 04:30 PM
Miami would take Jefferson right now, and we all know it.

That isn't the point in contention. The original quote from KStat said that Jefferson would be a better PF THIS season, than Walker. That hasn't happened.

Since86
03-31-2006, 04:36 PM
That isn't the point in contention. The original quote from KStat said that Jefferson would be a better PF THIS season, than Walker. That hasn't happened.

A healthy Al Jefferson is already better than a healthy Antione Walker.

He's better. He's had an equal season, statisically, while fighting through injuries.

travmil
03-31-2006, 04:40 PM
A healthy Al Jefferson is already better than a healthy Antione Walker.

He's better. He's had an equal season, statisically, while fighting through injuries.

As I said above, deal with reality, what really happened. Don't deal with what if's. what might have happened. The reality is that Walkers numbers are better in most stats for this season.

Since86
03-31-2006, 04:55 PM
As I said above, deal with reality, what really happened. Don't deal with what if's. what might have happened. The reality is that Walkers numbers are better in most stats for this season.

Per 48 mins, Walker leads him in two out of seven categories. I don't know how you can s ay that's "in most."

He's averaging 2.5 more assits and .84 more points.

Reality is that Jefferson is just as good, while playing in an injury riddled season.

Playing with, or recovering from, injuries is a VERY hard thing to do. He's playing just as good with more adversity. I honestly don't understand how you'd rate a player playing with less complications putting up pretty equal numbers as better.

travmil
03-31-2006, 04:57 PM
The end result is all that matters. Walker played better this season. Again, the per 48 minute comparison is worthless.

Fool
03-31-2006, 05:00 PM
How many times does the guy have to tell you (86) that the question isn't "Who's the better player?"

Since86
03-31-2006, 05:07 PM
How is a 48mins comparison worthless?

I guess you're not a fan of per 100 possessions for team rankings either. It's the best way to show production, when two players differ in mins played. It allows you to compare apples to apples, instead of apples to oranges.


Throw in the defense as well, since it's the total player and not just offensively. Jefferson is head and shoulders about 'Toine on D.

Since86
03-31-2006, 05:08 PM
How many times does the guy have to tell you (86) that the question isn't "Who's the better player?"

Jefferson is the better player.


EDIT: Ask yourself one question.

If you can choose one player between Antione and Jefferson, who do you choose to play on your team?

I'd take Jefferson 100 out of 100 times.

SoupIsGood
03-31-2006, 05:18 PM
K wins by default, Walker sucks.

Eindar
03-31-2006, 06:35 PM
I'd say this season is a wash, which means Kstat loses, because he said Jefferson would be better than 'Toine, not as good as.

Kstat
03-31-2006, 06:36 PM
Walker hurts his team twice as much as he helps it.

Al Jefferson hasn't had the best year either, but I don't see him throwing up 30-foot bricks and making passes to opposing players with pinpoint accuracy.

Jefferson has been a more efficient rebounder and scorer this year than Walker, even his sub-par stats bear that out.

I'll admit I didnt expect it to be close, but IMO Jefferson still wins out. Antoine's the king of meaningless stats. His game is so much worse than the numbers.

travmil
03-31-2006, 07:51 PM
How is a 48mins comparison worthless?

Because it doesn't compare a real situation. It only compares hypothetical stats for a situation that might have occurred had each player played 48 minutes. Again, deal with what really happened, instead of what might have happened. The end result of all of this is that Walker did more for the Heat than Jefferson did for the Celtics. He scored more points, he played more games, he played more minutes, he hit more shots, he had more assists, he got more rebounds, and on and on and on. I don't see how anyone can even come close to arguing that Jefferson did more than that. Nobody is trying to argue that Walker is a better player than Jefferson, only that he had a better season this season.

skyfire
03-31-2006, 09:19 PM
Watching Walker miss open layups still brings a smile to my face.
Watching him doing it as a teammate of Shaq, priceless.

ajbry
03-31-2006, 11:35 PM
From my personal experience of watching the Celts this year, Al definitely has the advantage. Does a lot of things that don't show up in the box score, whilst Fatoine makes horrible decisions pretty much all the time.

Kstat
03-31-2006, 11:38 PM
From my personal experience of watching the Celts this year, Al definitely has the advantage. Does a lot of things that don't show up in the box score, whilst Fatoine makes horrible decisions pretty much all the time.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

Fool
03-31-2006, 11:40 PM
How many times does the guy have to tell you (86) that the question isn't "Who's the better player?"


Jefferson is the better player.


EDIT: Ask yourself one question.

If you can choose one player between Antione and Jefferson, who do you choose to play on your team?

I'd take Jefferson 100 out of 100 times.

Are you serious with this response? Are you purposely not reading anything.

SoupIsGood
03-31-2006, 11:53 PM
Walker is a lot like Jax in some ways

Since86
04-03-2006, 01:39 PM
Because it doesn't compare a real situation. It only compares hypothetical stats for a situation that might have occurred had each player played 48 minutes. Again, deal with what really happened, instead of what might have happened. The end result of all of this is that Walker did more for the Heat than Jefferson did for the Celtics. He scored more points, he played more games, he played more minutes, he hit more shots, he had more assists, he got more rebounds, and on and on and on. I don't see how anyone can even come close to arguing that Jefferson did more than that. Nobody is trying to argue that Walker is a better player than Jefferson, only that he had a better season this season.


That's all stats. Just because someone averages 21pts a game, doesn't mean they will.

So now you're not only calling out stats per 48mins, you're throwing out ALL stats.

So you want to compare the two players skill set to see who's better?

Well when you're able to setup individual practices for each of them for us to judge their overall talent, come find me. Until then, we're gonna have to use hypothetical stats which are based on what they do on average.

Since86
04-03-2006, 01:48 PM
Are you serious with this response? Are you purposely not reading anything.

The original question was asking if KStat said that Al Jefferson would be a better PF than Antione Walker.

Better pf=better player.

I've not strayed away from that question.

travmil
04-03-2006, 03:06 PM
So now you're not only calling out stats per 48mins, you're throwing out ALL stats.

Not sure what you're talking about here. I'm not throwing out anything. In fact, I've pointed out just how much better Walker's stats are than Jefferson's.

KStat's original quote said "Al Jefferson will be a better pf than Walker THIS season". The key there is THIS season. Again, nobody is saying that Jefferson isn't the better overall player, just that he didn't do as much as Antione THIS season.

You're using 48 minute stats to say he did, I'm using actual results to say he didn't. As I've pointed out numerous times, Antione's actual stats are better than Jefferson's, in some cases nearly double. It's no use arguing anymore because, as you usually do, you've made every effort to completely miss my point.

By the way, per 48 minute stats say that Salim Stoudamire is the best rookie from last years class. That's all you need to know about per 48 minutes.

Since86
04-03-2006, 03:46 PM
Jefferson's stats can't show the entire story, because of all the time he's missed due to injury, or recovering from injury that's my point.

You can't expect a player to perform what he's capable of, while hes' nursing an injury. Jermaine is a 20-10 guy, but he isn't averaging that since he's returned but that doesn't mean is still isnt' as good.

There's a physical limitation to why Jefferson isn't playing. He'd be playing 30+mins a night, if he could. They're stats are pretty similiar already, giving him that extra time would make his stats even better.

And the only stat he's doubled, or even close too, is assists. But if you want to get picky about it, Jefferson has doubled Walker's blocks average. It's one-for-one.

BayouPacer
04-03-2006, 04:09 PM
Wouldn't his injuries alone be a reason that you would take Antoine over Jefferson THIS YEAR.

For the long haul, it is a moot point, but I bet the Celtics make the playoffs this year if Antoine was on the team. If you ask Paul Pierce who he would rather have in retrospect this year, I think his answer is Toine.

travmil
04-03-2006, 04:15 PM
Jefferson's stats can't show the entire story, because of all the time he's missed due to injury, or recovering from injury that's my point.

You can't expect a player to perform what he's capable of, while hes' nursing an injury. Jermaine is a 20-10 guy, but he isn't averaging that since he's returned but that doesn't mean is still isnt' as good.

There's a physical limitation to why Jefferson isn't playing. He'd be playing 30+mins a night, if he could. They're stats are pretty similiar already, giving him that extra time would make his stats even better.

And the only stat he's doubled, or even close too, is assists. But if you want to get picky about it, Jefferson has doubled Walker's blocks average. It's one-for-one.

:banghead:

OK now you're just ignoring things, He's scored nearly twice as many points on the season than Jefferson, 861-464. Time to stop the insanity if you're just going to ignore the stats that you tried to prove swung in Jefferson's favor...

Since86
04-03-2006, 04:27 PM
:banghead:

OK now you're just ignoring things, He's scored nearly twice as many points on the season than Jefferson, 861-464. Time to stop the insanity if you're just going to ignore the stats that you tried to prove swung in Jefferson's favor...

BECAUSE OF GAMES PLAYED!!!!


Jefferson has only played in 59 games, with his minutes ranging from 6 through 31. He has only hit Walker's mpg average of 26, 9 times in the ENTIRE season.

Walker has played in 73 games. He's either played at or under 18mpg, Jefferson's mpg average, 6 times.

Obviously he's going to score more total points.

BayouPacer
04-03-2006, 04:36 PM
So I reiterate. Wouldn't you have wanted someone out there more that is scoring more points, then an injured player that gives you less minutes and unfortunately less production....even if he isn't a better player?

As for a hypothetically situation, would you rather Larry Hughes (16 Points, 4 Rebounds and 4 assists) or Sarunas (8 points, 2 rebounds, 3 assists) this year. I don't care how much Larry Hughes stands above Sarunas, our guy is going to be able to play in the playoffs and know how to play with the team more than a guy that can't come back. Who do you take this season knowing that Hughes is out for most of it???

So even if Jefferson is better, or can even play better this year in his non-injury spurts, he did not CONTRIBUTE as much to his team, thus he had a lesser year as power-froward be it through no fault of his own and regardless of his own ability.

travmil
04-03-2006, 04:43 PM
BECAUSE OF GAMES PLAYED!!!!


Jefferson has only played in 59 games, with his minutes ranging from 6 through 31. He has only hit Walker's mpg average of 26, 9 times in the ENTIRE season.

Walker has played in 73 games. He's either played at or under 18mpg, Jefferson's mpg average, 6 times.

Obviously he's going to score more total points.

So, what you're saying here is that Walker has scored 400 more points in only 14 more games? Thank you for proving my point...

You just don't get it. It doesn't matter what reason Walker had the better season. It only matters that he did in fact have the better season.

SoupIsGood
04-03-2006, 04:45 PM
Walker sucks, I'd take a dude that played two games over him.

Since86
04-03-2006, 04:51 PM
So, what you're saying here is that Walker has scored 400 more points in only 14 more games? Thank you for proving my point...

You just don't get it. It doesn't matter what reason Walker had the better season. It only matters that he did in fact have the better season.

Did you skip over the minutes per game part, and how many times Jefferson played atleast Walker's average, or did you purposely leave it out?

Here's a prime example of stats and how injuries affect them.

Player A
15.7 pts 8.35 rbs. .436 fg%

Player B
22.4 pts 10 rbs. .4715 fg%

Player B averages 6.7 more points, 1.65 more rebounds, and shoots a better percentage.

Which player is better?


EDIT: BTW only 13 games seperate these two averages. One less than Jefferson and Walker.

Since86
04-03-2006, 04:54 PM
So I reiterate. Wouldn't you have wanted someone out there more that is scoring more points, then an injured player that gives you less minutes and unfortunately less production....even if he isn't a better player?

As for a hypothetically situation, would you rather Larry Hughes (16 Points, 4 Rebounds and 4 assists) or Sarunas (8 points, 2 rebounds, 3 assists) this year. I don't care how much Larry Hughes stands above Sarunas, our guy is going to be able to play in the playoffs and know how to play with the team more than a guy that can't come back. Who do you take this season knowing that Hughes is out for most of it???

So even if Jefferson is better, or can even play better this year in his non-injury spurts, he did not CONTRIBUTE as much to his team, thus he had a lesser year as power-froward be it through no fault of his own and regardless of his own ability.

The prediction KStat made was before the season ever started, so you don't know their injury situation.


You ask me before this season who I'd rather have, or who was the better player, we'd all agree that Hughes is/was. He still is.

Hughes's injuries don't make him any less of a SG. But it does limit his production.

The question is, who is a better player. NOT who's producting more this season.

travmil
04-03-2006, 05:00 PM
The question is, who is a better player. NOT who's producting more this season.

And I choose to look at it from the other angle. The question isn't who is the better player, it's who had the better SEASON. I base my interpretation on the fact that the original quote had that exact terminology in it "better this season". As long as you look at it your way, and I look at it my way, we'll never agree.

Let me ask you something, did Kstat qualify his prediction the way you are? I mean did he say that Jefferson would be better IF he stayed healthy?

Kstat
04-03-2006, 05:03 PM
I specifically said he would be a better power forward than Walker. I did not say he would have better stats, because Walker is the king of meaningless stats in the NBA.

Walker is also the king of negative intangibles that don't show up in the box score.

What I meant was, looking at both Antonine and Al on the floor, which has looked like a better player?

I would argue that Jefferson has looked like the better player, and that Antoine is the same old stat-padding buffoon who is still hurting his team in the clutch with horrible shots and awful passes.

Jefferson, meanwhile, was instrumental for the Celtics early in the year before he got hurt.

Since86
04-03-2006, 05:08 PM
And I choose to look at it from the other angle. As long as you look at it your way, and I look at it my way, we'll never agree.

Let me ask you something, did Kstat qualify his prediction the way you are? I mean did he say that Jefferson would be better IF he stayed healthy?

KStat said that Jefferson would be the better player next season, this one.

Jefferson is a better player than Walker, he just isn't able to produce because he can't play.

The frustrating thing out of this whole thread is you've never said Walker WAS better, only that he produced more. A lesser player can produce more, and is. It's not about the numbers, it's about they're ability.

Since you didn't pick between my two players, and it's five so I'm wanting to go home, I'll fill you in on player A and B.

They're one in the same. Both are JO. Quite clearly JO plays better healthy, obvious by the numbers, but it's still the same exact player and same exact skill set/ability.

JO doesn't phsyically get anyworse, he just can't perform at his normal level. Do we want a healther Jermiane? Obviously, but he plays with the cards he's dealt, injuries and all.

The player A numbers are from Jan. 2 on, not including his DNPs obviously, to the present, which totals 14 games.

Player B numbers are from the last game in Jan. to the season opener, which totals 27.

travmil
04-03-2006, 05:24 PM
Jefferson is a better player than Walker, he just isn't able to produce because he can't play.

Then using your logic, I hereby declare that Jonathan Bender is the best player to ever lace up a set of sneakers. Again, deal with reality, instead of what you think might have happened had Jefferson been healthy.

I understand that Jefferson has the ability to produce on Walker's level, but he has yet to do it. I'll wait until he actually does it to say he's better, or even as good as, Walker.

Since86
04-04-2006, 12:56 PM
Then using your logic, I hereby declare that Jonathan Bender is the best player to ever lace up a set of sneakers. Again, deal with reality, instead of what you think might have happened had Jefferson been healthy.

I understand that Jefferson has the ability to produce on Walker's level, but he has yet to do it. I'll wait until he actually does it to say he's better, or even as good as, Walker.


I have a feeling you're arguing just to argue, when you're paralleling a debate between Antione Walker and Al Jefferson with Jon Bender and Michael Jordan.