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View Full Version : Q.O.D. for Thursday.....



Peck
03-30-2006, 03:02 AM
I know tonight is Reggie's night & pretty much that is about all we have been able to look forward to over the past few weeks, but I have a team question.

If it's just going to be a first round exit, do you really want the Pacers to make the playoffs?

I know we can't guarantee anything but for the sake of the quesiton let's assume we are getting beat in the first round.

I've got a couple of differant thoughts on this & I could make an argument to go either way. But I'll wait till a little later to see what you guys think.

Kstat
03-30-2006, 03:24 AM
Someone's gotta go.

Both Chicago and Philly want no part of the postseason, and they're waaay ahead of you in losses. You're in wether you like it or not.

Fireball Kid
03-30-2006, 03:33 AM
Sadly, we are a lock for a playoff birth.

Bball
03-30-2006, 03:37 AM
No way I want them making the playoffs if we assume for the sake of discussion that they will lose in the first round.

I don't want them 'backing in' under any circumstances. Either we go in with momentum and some newfound determination and purpose or I'd prefer we miss the playoffs.

I want management evaluating this team for the failure it is. I don't want any false sense of hope giving them any excuses for themselves or the Sunshine Brigade (I'm talking about the people who can find a positive in being swept in 4 games by blowout margins and still start talking about being favorites for the championship next year). Blech...

I fear just making the playoffs, even if it is backing in, will satisfy too many people (especially TPTB). I don't want there to be any ability to make excuses or spin with any possible legs at all. I want this team evaluated on an honest basis. Not just this year but the past couple of years. And management and coaching should take a look in the mirror while they are at it.

I'm not sure how much longer PS&E can put a team on the court like they have and not start losing fans in droves. We need to start seeing a team playing the right way... and with class and purpose. We need players we can be proud of.

-Bball

Kstat
03-30-2006, 03:39 AM
bball, I think the point is moot because you could probably lose the rest of youre games and still make the playoffs, because chicago and philly will tank just as much.

The Philly team I saw tonight wants no part of the 8th seed. They want an early vacation. Same goes for Chicago, who also is playing like they're already on summer break.

Those are the 8th and 9th teams in the east.

You can drive in, you can back in.

Either way, you're getting in. Nobody else wants your spot.

Raskolnikov
03-30-2006, 03:52 AM
Sadly, we are a lock for a playoff birth.
So Tinsley IS pregnant.

Fireball Kid
03-30-2006, 04:04 AM
:smartass:

Jose Slaughter
03-30-2006, 04:16 AM
If we are assured of a first round exit, I would say no.

I know you "always" want your teams in the playoffs as a part of the learning & growing process, especially for the younger players like Granger & Harrison.

This time I think missing the playoffs would be a better "learning experience" for some of the vets. such as ........

wait a sec!

I was gonna say Jackson, Tinsley & O'Neal, but I think at least 2 of them could be gone before next season so why would it matter if they learned anything by setting out the playoffs?

I say, make the playoffs & play Granger & Harrison as much as possible.

The changes that Bball hopes for will be happening. As a matter of fact I think one has already been arranged, but that is for another thread. Making or missing the playoffs will not alter what will happen in the off season. TPTB see the flaws in the team as well as its individual players. There will be changes reguardless of what date or last game is.

Los Angeles
03-30-2006, 05:54 AM
Absolutely.

You play.

To win.

The game.

;)



Unless you're the one team out of 30 that takes home the trophy, you've got to lose some time. Even if we lose in the first round, I'd prefer to have an extended season rather than an extended off-season.

If anyone here would prefer to lose and get a lottery pick, I honestly would have to question your integrity as a sportsman AND a fan. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the way I feel.

Mr. Pink
03-30-2006, 06:17 AM
I don't care if we lose in the first round or not..I want this team in there. I really want Granger to get some playoff experience. Rick already has a little confidence in him as we saw him in the last minutes of the Pistons game. Granger is gonna be huge for us soon, as well as Harrison. Any playin time they can get is a huge advantage for us. Especially playoff games...

Unclebuck
03-30-2006, 07:30 AM
This question tends to come up every year, or at least every year when the Pacers don't win 50 games. I wish I could just cut and paste what I post every year when this comes up.

What possible advantage is there in not making the playoffs. Sure you move up 1 or 2 slots in the draft - but that doesn't really help. The only other possible advantage is that it would save me a little money.

As Mr. Pink said DG and DH need playoff experience although I have to say DH may not play much, if Pollard can play at all in fact I see harrison getting very little time. '

You also learn a lot about your team and players during the playoffs, in fact you learn more in one playoff series than he do over about 60 games of the regular season.

It looks like the Pacers will either play the Nets or Heat in the first round and likely lose, but playoff experience is golden, you don't win without it.

Bball, you theory about TPTB not realizing what they have to do this summer is very insulting.

D-BONE
03-30-2006, 07:51 AM
This question tends to come up every year, or at least every year when the Pacers don't win 50 games. I wish I could just cut and paste what I post every year when this comes up.

What possible advantage is there in not making the playoffs. Sure you move up 1 or 2 slots in the draft - but that doesn't really help. The only other possible advantage is that it would save me a little money.

As Mr. Pink said DG and DH need playoff experience although I have to say DH may not play much, if Pollard can play at all in fact I see harrison getting very little time. '

You also learn a lot about your team and players during the playoffs, in fact you learn more in one playoff series than he do over about 60 games of the regular season.

It looks like the Pacers will either play the Nets or Heat in the first round and likely lose, but playoff experience is golden, you don't win without it.

Bball, you theory about TPTB not realizing what they have to do this summer is very insulting.

Tend to agree with you except for the part about learning more in a playoff series about your team than in 60 games. At least for this particular group.

Even with the well documented injury and Artest complications, I've personally seen enough in 70 games to tell me this group doesn't deserve another go round without at least a few significant changes.

About the only thing that MIGHT change my mind would be an unexpected ECF appearance. If that were to happen it would give credence to the full squad together with time to solidify argument.

But I find that's getting to be a broken record and it's difficult to believe a team capable of that, despite line up turmoil, couldn't get up to post a better record against the league cellar dwellers.

RWB
03-30-2006, 08:56 AM
You also learn a lot about your team and players during the playoffs, in fact you learn more in one playoff series than he do over about 60 games of the regular season.



UB has already posted my exact thoughts. I believe this as well and want to see who can step it up when the intensity really cranks up.

If there is a key person to pickup then Donnie and LB better get their cap in order and find them through free agency or trades.

bulletproof
03-30-2006, 08:58 AM
I fear just making the playoffs, even if it is backing in, will satisfy too many people (especially TPTB).

Where the hell do you get this silly notion? You don't get to where Donnie and Larry are or compete at their level by settling for mediocrity or second best. They want a championship more than you do, I can assure you. It will ultimately be how they measure their careers. The Pacers may be your mistress, but it is their wife.

Kegboy
03-30-2006, 10:11 AM
As I said in Bball's thread, we need to evaluate Peja playing a RJeff or LBJ over a series under playoff pressure before we decide to pay him a lot of money. Larry's gonna make changes regardless. We need as many games as possible for him to evaluate the roster.

Seed
03-30-2006, 10:26 AM
The Pacers may be your mistress, but it is their wife.

Ah, some romance on PD.

:violin:

Will Galen
03-30-2006, 10:27 AM
About the only thing that MIGHT change my mind would be an unexpected ECF appearance. If that were to happen it would give credence to the full squad together with time to solidify argument.



This team has talent and all the ingredients needed. If they got some breaks they could go on a run and win the championship. However, I would still want a whole new backcourt!

Will Galen
03-30-2006, 10:33 AM
Where the hell do you get this silly notion? You don't get to where Donnie and Larry are or compete at their level by settling for mediocrity or second best. They want a championship more than you do, I can assure you. It will ultimately be how they measure their careers. The Pacers may be your mistress, but it is their wife.


Well stated! I wish I had said that last line! Just the right elucidation!

Slick Pinkham
03-30-2006, 10:51 AM
Maturity gained in losing to Boston in the playoffs in 2003 directly helped them overcome Boston in 2004 and 2005, so yes,

I want to be in the playoffs even if they are swept in 4. Maybr that would provoke some roster shakeups that are needed, if we are healthy and still get shelled.

Diamond Dave
03-30-2006, 12:56 PM
What BBall said, exactly.

However since this is the season that it is I just wished we'd have tanked it a little harder. Because at this point you might as well go into the playoffs cause you wouldn't get a significantly better pick.

But as far as TPTB not knowing what to do this summer, well they haven't figured it out over the past 6 summers, so why should I believe they will this summer again exactly?

Knucklehead Warrior
03-30-2006, 01:19 PM
Whether anyone likes it or not, or likes our team right now or not, the Ps are in fact making a run to be ready for the playoffs. The team is almost all together, although certainly not clicking. The lineups and minutes are becoming set and evaluations are being made on what is working with who and what isn't.

When the playoffs get here and certain people are losing us games for jacking up 3s with 15 seconds on the shotclock, or shooting 4 for 17, or committing 7 turnovers, or jawing too much with the officials, or not playing D, then we identify them, mark their transgressions on their foreheads, and give that as our reason for dealing them away.

In the meantime, we get ready to do the best we can with what we've got.
No amount of complaining about who is who's pet or what Carlisle doesn't know or who's fault it is, is going to change that now. :-p Get ready, here we come.

Bball
03-30-2006, 01:42 PM
Where the hell do you get this silly notion? You don't get to where Donnie and Larry are or compete at their level by settling for mediocrity or second best. They want a championship more than you do, I can assure you. It will ultimately be how they measure their careers. The Pacers may be your mistress, but it is their wife.

How'd we end up with this season and team in the first place if they see all the problems and have all the answers?

-
OK... I'll answer that...
Because DW is loyal and conservative to a fault and he has stated that a championship is not his overriding goal.



-Bball

Bball
03-30-2006, 01:53 PM
I need to clarify something...
When I say I'd rather the team not make the playoffs by backing in or if I knew a 1st round exit was inevitable, I am not saying I want the team to tank intentionally. I'm just saying if they can't find some momentum to go into the playoffs then I'd prefer another losing team to leapfrog us.

I do want the team trying to make the playoffs. I don't want them making it simply because they suck less than someone else.

I suppose there is some argument to see our players in the playoffs to evaluate who can raise their game when it is all on the line... but then that would mean you trust Carlisle to go with the hothand and not cool down his own players or play someone in such a position/time that he doesn't give them in a chance to get into a groove.

-Bball

Bball
03-30-2006, 01:55 PM
Bball, you theory about TPTB not realizing what they have to do this summer is very insulting.

Realizing it is one thing... admitting a mistake is even another... and pulling the trigger on getting done what needs to get done is another.


-Bball

DisplacedKnick
03-30-2006, 03:06 PM
The playoffs are always better than not making the playoffs - even if you get swept.

If nothing else, giving Danny Granger a taste of the postseason will be valuable.

Mr. Pink
03-30-2006, 03:16 PM
Because DW is loyal and conservative to a fault and he has stated that a championship is not his overriding goal.



-Bball


That right there is kinda reminds me of the trainer in Million Dollar Baby. The first big boxer he had left him, because he never thought he was ready for a championship fight. The Trainer never took a chance with his prized fame. Have we ever seen DW take a chance for this team? I'm still a youngin and don't know too much about Donnie.

Moses
03-30-2006, 04:23 PM
RECORDS
DON'T
MATTER!!
(Assuming you make the playoffs)

That is all. I'll be supporting the Pacers 100% come playoff time. It's been 3 games that we've had JO and Tins back in our lineup and we lose a few and everyone is crying and doesn't want to make the playoffs. Some of you guys are a complete joke. We watch basketball for entertainment..Just because our team isn't going to go far doesn't make it not fun to watch. If you really think the Pacers are going to be swept off the court that easily then you are in for a rude awakening. When we play good, we are a top 5 team in the NBA. Our only problem right now is consistency and players still learning their roles on the team. JO hasn't really integrated into the offense yet and Tinsley can't shoot. Some of you guys need to stop crying about this. We are making the playoffs and we should be fine in the first round. That is unless the Nets continue to actually play defense.


Disclaimer: I am in the :sunshine: brigade.

Kaufman
03-30-2006, 04:30 PM
Absolutely.

You play.

To win.

The game.

;)



Unless you're the one team out of 30 that takes home the trophy, you've got to lose some time. Even if we lose in the first round, I'd prefer to have an extended season rather than an extended off-season.

If anyone here would prefer to lose and get a lottery pick, I honestly would have to question your integrity as a sportsman AND a fan. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the way I feel.

One could turn this around on you and say that getting a lotto pick helps the team win... over the long haul.

Also, why question the integrity of a poster - shouldn't you question the integrity of the team? The players on the team? I think this team has enough talent to win, and win a lot. But I don't think the team has the moral or personality to win a lot. In fact, I can't say that I would be proud of this team winning a championship. That may be a critical statement and one that would be critiqued by all, but I don't like the team, I don't like many of the players, and I'd like to see some change happen - if not to the personnel, then to the personality.

rexnom
03-30-2006, 04:37 PM
RECORDS
DON'T
MATTER!!
(Assuming you make the playoffs)

That is all. I'll be supporting the Pacers 100% come playoff time. It's been 3 games that we've had JO and Tins back in our lineup and we lose a few and everyone is crying and doesn't want to make the playoffs. Some of you guys are a complete joke. We watch basketball for entertainment..Just because our team isn't going to go far doesn't make it not fun to watch. If you really think the Pacers are going to be swept off the court that easily then you are in for a rude awakening. When we play good, we are a top 5 team in the NBA. Our only problem right now is consistency and players still learning their roles on the team. JO hasn't really integrated into the offense yet and Tinsley can't shoot. Some of you guys need to stop crying about this. We are making the playoffs and we should be fine in the first round. That is unless the Nets continue to actually play defense.


Disclaimer: I am in the :sunshine: brigade.

I agree with a lot of that. I, too, am in the sunshine brigade, yes, but the facts are undeniable. We are alarmingly fickle. These last few losses could have gone our way. If they had, everyone would be incredibly excited and those of us in the brigade wouldn't sound like idiots. My question is, how can you like the roster at the beginning of the year much, much better than the one we have now? I mean, Peja is a good fit. Jack is benefiting from Peja. We are seeing new areas of JO's game. DG is much better than we could ever imagine. DH and Pollard are solid contributors in our rotation...not something I expected this year. Fred is one of the league's best 6th men, AJ is one of the league's best backups, and JT is well, good when just doesn't shoot...anyways, all that's missing is some time together and chemistry. All I'm asking is give these guys a chance because unlike the sorry team that came out at the beginning of the year these guys look like they at least want to jell and get some chemistry and IMO, they deserve some love from the fanbase.

McKeyFan
03-30-2006, 04:46 PM
Bball, your theory about TPTB not realizing what they have to do this summer is very insulting.

Then TPTB deserves to be insulted. I've waited two summers for an overhaul. No luck so far.

MagicRat
03-30-2006, 04:51 PM
RECORDS
DON'T
MATTER!!
(Assuming you make the playoffs)

That is all. I'll be supporting the Pacers 100% come playoff time. It's been 3 games that we've had JO and Tins back in our lineup and we lose a few and everyone is crying and doesn't want to make the playoffs. Some of you guys are a complete joke. We watch basketball for entertainment..Just because our team isn't going to go far doesn't make it not fun to watch. If you really think the Pacers are going to be swept off the court that easily then you are in for a rude awakening. When we play good, we are a top 5 team in the NBA. Our only problem right now is consistency and players still learning their roles on the team. JO hasn't really integrated into the offense yet and Tinsley can't shoot. Some of you guys need to stop crying about this. We are making the playoffs and we should be fine in the first round. That is unless the Nets continue to actually play defense.


Disclaimer: I am in the :sunshine: brigade.

Rick said on his show the other night that they haven't been able to have a full practice since JO has returned, only a couple of shootarounds. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the schedule down the stretch is going to allow many practices, so they're going to have to figure it out on the fly.

Hopefully when the playoffs roll around and there is some time between games they will be sharper.......

Doug
03-30-2006, 05:08 PM
Yes. As UB said, the only thing missing the playoffs will do is save me money.

If TPTB aren't already going to take a hard look at the roster over the summer, then I don't think missing the playoffs will help any. There have been more than enough signs this team is flawed. One more won't make any difference.

CableKC
03-30-2006, 05:56 PM
I don't care if we lose in the first round or not..I want this team in there. I really want Granger to get some playoff experience. Rick already has a little confidence in him as we saw him in the last minutes of the Pistons game. Granger is gonna be huge for us soon, as well as Harrison. Any playin time they can get is a huge advantage for us. Especially playoff games...
Giving the rookies ( Sarunas/Granger/Harrison) significant minutes during the Playoffs will never happen.....Carlisle likes to play his experienced veteran players when it counts....cuz he's not the type to quit.

I wouldn't be surprised if the minutes will play with a 8 to 9 man rotation:

JONeal/SJax/Peja/Tinsley/Foster/AJ/Freddie/Pollard/Granger

Although Granger would be the logical first backup SF off the bench....I could see Carlisle shift SJax over to backup SF with Freddie at the backup SG spot before giving Granger any real minutes. I know it makes no sense....but would you be surprised if you see Granger play garbage minutes or relieve either SJax or Peja when they are in foul trouble?

That said.....I can see the same thing for Harrison and Sarunas.....both will only get minutes when its time to rest the players they are backing up. For Sarunas....he will only backup Tinsley AND AJ when both need rest...not one or the other. For Harrison....he will only play when both Foster and Pollard get into foul trouble.

The bottomline is that Granger, Harrison and Sarunas will only get minutes when Carlisle has no choice but to play them....in garbage time and when the starters need to rest.

NorCal_Pacerfan
03-30-2006, 06:22 PM
Don't you get extra dough for playing in the postseason?

Kstat
03-30-2006, 06:24 PM
Don't you get extra dough for playing in the postseason?


No. Players dont get paid unless they win the championship.

Unclebuck
03-30-2006, 07:08 PM
No. Players dont get paid unless they win the championship.


Kstat, I think you might be joking. I thought players got paid for making the playoffs and get paid more each round they win. I'm I wrong

Kstat
03-30-2006, 07:16 PM
Kstat, I think you might be joking. I thought players got paid for making the playoffs and get paid more each round they win. I'm I wrong


The NBA doesnt want players just going to playoff teams because they would get a longer salary.

It makes no sense to pay players for playoff games. Lottery teams would never be able to sign anyone.

I believe both finals teams get paid. That's it.

Most NBA teams dont start making money until the postseason, because every home game is pure profit for them. None of it goes to the players. The NBA itself is responsible for payng nba finals bonuses.

Big Smooth
03-30-2006, 10:05 PM
Make the playoffs, win or lose in Round 1. Nothing to lose, valuable experience to gain. More games to evaluate how this group of guys play together especially in the spotlight of the postseason where you see what guys are truly made of.

I think the premise of Peck's question was more based on hypotheticals than reality. Obviously the Pacers would have to crash pretty bad to not get the 8th seed.

I'll always take postseason play over a higher draft pick in any sport at any level. Especially in the NBA, it seems to take playoff failures to build the character of a champion. Even if say for example Jermaine is gone this summer, a first round defeat could still help build the foundation of that heart & character in a guy like Granger.

ChicagoJ
03-30-2006, 11:33 PM
I want Danny and David to get some playoff experience.

I can't ever think of a reason why I'd want the Pacers to miss the playoffs.

And yes, I'm convinced this team will finally be broken up in the summer. I want the starting frontcourt (Danny, JO, Harrison) to be here but I want an entirely new backcourt. Maybe keep Tinsley but the other six can disappear.

Arcadian
03-31-2006, 12:36 AM
And yes, I'm convinced this team will finally be broken up in the summer. I want the starting frontcourt (Danny, JO, Harrison) to be here but I want an entirely new backcourt. Maybe keep Tinsley but the other six can disappear.

That's my vote.

What I want most is a new SG.

Bball
03-31-2006, 02:40 AM
IIRC, at one time teams certainly did get paid for the playoffs BUT the pay was based on some type of formula. It was something devised so that teams weren't encouraged to 'throw' games in order to lengthen a series and make more money.

-Bball

RWB
03-31-2006, 08:46 AM
Although Granger would be the logical first backup SF off the bench....I could see Carlisle shift SJax over to backup SF with Freddie at the backup SG spot before giving Granger any real minutes. I know it makes no sense....but would you be surprised if you see Granger play garbage minutes or relieve either SJax or Peja when they are in foul trouble?


I'll say this KC, if your prediction comes true it will makes the decision to fire Carlisle easier.

Mr. Pink
03-31-2006, 12:50 PM
The NBA doesnt want players just going to playoff teams because they would get a longer salary.

It makes no sense to pay players for playoff games. Lottery teams would never be able to sign anyone.

I believe both finals teams get paid. That's it.

Most NBA teams dont start making money until the postseason, because every home game is pure profit for them. None of it goes to the players. The NBA itself is responsible for payng nba finals bonuses.


Unless they nba has changed lately, I'm pretty sure you get bonuses for each round of playoffs you make. I remember reading Jason William's book and he told a story about how he screwed up, because he thought he was getting like 2 million for makin the playoffs but instead it was like 200 thousand or something like that. I'm not sayin thats how much they get, but they do get a lil money for atleast makin the playoffs.

ChicagoJ
03-31-2006, 06:28 PM
Back in 1995, the Pacers players voted to allocate 1/3 of a player's share of playoff money to Pooh Richardson. So I know there is/ (used to be) some allocation by the league.

It was (?) based on how far your team advances, not number of games played, for obvious reasons.

Mourning
03-31-2006, 06:53 PM
And yes, I'm convinced this team will finally be broken up in the summer. I want the starting frontcourt (Danny, JO, Harrison) to be here but I want an entirely new backcourt. Maybe keep Tinsley but the other six can disappear.

I think I can aggree with that depending on what JO could potentially net us.

However, Tinsley would be the first to leave if it were up to me. Considering I was a Tinman-fan until early this season I think that is quite telling. Especially since I'm pretty sure I am not the only one who feels that way and used to love what he brought to our game.

Regards,

Mourning :cool: