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Jermaniac
03-29-2006, 11:13 PM
Who else in the NBA runs this type of thing?

I cant beleive someone would coach like this. If Rick would adjust this and coach during the damn game I wouldnt hate him so much. But it serioulsy pisses me off that one of our players gets hot and I know that he is coming out.

What is the good thing about set rotations? I really dont get it, I want to know why Rick does this.

Unclebuck
03-29-2006, 11:16 PM
I didn't see any set rotations tonight.

What I see is that Rick subsitution pattern is similar to a aboutr 75% of the NBA coaches.

History shows that a regular subsitution pattern is the most sucessfull approach in the NBA.

sweabs
03-29-2006, 11:19 PM
Sam Mitchell is the best at letting his guys stay on the floor and riding the hot hand.

He has sat Chris Bosh through the 4th quarter if the lineup out on the floor is on fire. He did the same with Vince Carter when he was a Raptor. I like that philosophy. If the guys on the bench got you to where you are (back in the game), then let them ride it out until a change is needed! Don't take them off their groove.

Pat Riley has also left Shaq out of games in the 4th quarter because Alonzo was doing a good job.

Jermaniac
03-29-2006, 11:19 PM
Its is set rotations. Look at this

Peja is on fire hitting everything (what was he 5 for 5 in the first qtr?)
Jack is playing like crap

Yet Peja goes out first and Jack gets to play the whole damn qtr.

Its set rotations he takes players out everygame at the same time, no matter how they are playing. People wonder why Jack plays so much when he sucks it up, its because Rick has it like that before the game even starts.

piksi
03-29-2006, 11:21 PM
Non of the top teams has set rotations. Set rotations cost Pacers at least 4-5 games from what I have seen

Bball
03-29-2006, 11:25 PM
The idea of the set rotation is consistency and to (I would assume) promote harmony among the players.

But there should be some middle ground besides adjustments made for foul situations.

Not riding the hot hand or pulling a lineup that has actually gotten the team back in a game are valid criticisms IMHO.

You don't want to be the other team's best defense against a hot hand.

-Bball

HulkSmash!
03-29-2006, 11:27 PM
Pollard shouldn't be playing over David Harrison. Harrison is already 50x the offensive talent, and he's an equal rebounder and defender. Harrison is our center of the future, Pollard is gone at seasons end. Anthony Johnson is an average backup at best, Saras can bring more to the table with his shooting alone. A.J. must go. Peja must get more shots, Jackson less. Jackson must stop settling for low percentage jump shots and take it to the rim more. Jamaal Tinsley must show more respect for the refs, so he'll finally start getting some calls his way. He gets hacked more and to the free throw less than any player I've seen in recent memory. Jermaine O'Neal needs to pick up his game. His offense has been terrible since his return from injury. Fred Jones must stay healthy and play smarter. Danny Granger needs to play 30+ minutes a game somehow. He's an impact player on both ends of the court. Austin Croshere should only be used in special situations where a great shooting, but terrible defensive PF is needed. No way does he deserve to be in our normal rotation. Rick Carlisle needs to learn the phrase "if it aint broke, don't fix it". Especially with David Harrison. Especially against the Pistons.

Unclebuck
03-29-2006, 11:28 PM
Non of the top teams has set rotations. Set rotations cost Pacers at least 4-5 games from what I have seen


Pistons I grant you don't. Although Antonio is pretty set. But I think their bench would be much more productive if Flip did use a more regular subst pattern'

Spurs have as set of a subst pattern as the pacers do.

Mavs have had a lot of injuries so it is difficult to know.

Suns have a different type team altogether, so who knows what they do.

Heat's subst pattern is as set as the Pacers.


The thing I hated about Isiah the most was how he substituted his players. He killed our bench. if you want a productive bench you need a somewhat regular subst pattern.


Edit: Pollard is a much better defensive player than Harrison, and he's a better rebounder too

piksi
03-30-2006, 12:11 AM
if you want a productive bench you need a somewhat regular subst pattern.


sure but you have to base it on the performance on the court. You can't possibly go in a game saying. Player "X" will get so many minutes. Your first goal should be to win the game

8.9_seconds
03-30-2006, 12:15 AM
Pollard shouldn't be playing over David Harrison. Harrison is already 50x the offensive talent, and he's an equal rebounder and defender. Harrison is our center of the future, Pollard is gone at seasons end.

Exaggerating just a tad? Scot helped us alot this season, ALOT. I hear alot of people talk about how Sarunas doesn't get to play when he should, but I never hear one word about Pollard. Scot started a streak himself, he brought up the level of play, and as a result the entire team responded. I love David, but he's still getting his feet wet. Yes, he needs PT to evolve fully, yes he has proved that season, but Scot is a seasoned veteran and helps when he's needed and called on.



Anthony Johnson is an average backup at best, Saras can bring more to the table with his shooting alone. A.J. must go.


Wow, and Saras has really showed that this season too, hasn't he? AJ is playing the best ball of his life. Saras may be a globally known player, but he's just a rookie in an unfamiliar system.


Austin Croshere should only be used in special situations where a great shooting, but terrible defensive PF is needed. No way does he deserve to be in our normal rotation. Rick Carlisle needs to learn the phrase "if it aint broke, don't fix it". Especially with David Harrison. Especially against the Pistons.

Austin is one of our biggest hustle players, if not the biggest. He does the dirty work. The man has 2 concussions to prove that. We also played some of our best games with him.

Please, I don't want to enrage anybody or disrespect you, but take off the homer shades for just a second and stop disrespecting other players.

DeS
03-30-2006, 05:19 AM
Wow, and Saras has really showed that this season too, hasn't he? AJ is playing the best ball of his life. Saras may be a globally known player, but he's just a rookie in an unfamiliar system.
AJ isn't playing the best ball anymore since he was benched. I guess that's not because of the attitude, it's because he is comfortable only with starters. And Saras showed that he can manage bench and win with a bench. Isn't happaning to often anymore.

Unclebuck
03-30-2006, 07:46 AM
I read comments about Saras shooting. Well he isn't shooting any better than Jax or Tinsley, so his shooting is overrated.

Lithfan
03-30-2006, 08:05 AM
Rick does has set rotation.
I can tell you that because I follow each play by play. Rick has exactly the same timing for substitution both in first quarter and later. I think I already said that about few months ago.

UB says it helps to bring consistency.
Most people here think that tight 8 man rotation is needed in playoff to build better chemistry between players and maximize starters potential.

Rick takes these "rules" as a ten commandments and follows them no matter what.
I say BS! :bs:

Don't complicate something simple.

There is only one criteria that judges team performance. Winning.
And if particular player is playing bad, Jerusalem will not fall apart if you will give over player opportunity. Especially when it happens game after the game after the game.....

The same thing with subs pattern.

###############################################

Regarding Saras:

1. He does shoot better. You know that.

2. His shot % is low because:
a. he takes only 3s. A lot of them in first seconds when he tried to force and score some points because he doesn't get screens and passes... thats why he sucks at 2..
b. He did it majorly when played at SG position. Just look at his FG% as a function of shotclock:
www.82games.com

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 width=290 bgColor=#cccccc border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e5e5e5><TD width=50 bgColor=#33cc33><CENTER>Secs.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Att.</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>eFG%</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Ast'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Blk'd</CENTER></TD><TD width=48><CENTER>Pts</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>0-10</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>35% </TD><TD align=right>.402 </TD><TD align=right>43% </TD><TD align=right>3% </TD><TD align=right>1.7 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>11-15</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>31% </TD><TD align=right>.565 </TD><TD align=right>45% </TD><TD align=right>4% </TD><TD align=right>2.1 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>16-20</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>23% </TD><TD align=right>.580 </TD><TD align=right>63% </TD><TD align=right>2% </TD><TD align=right>1.6 </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD><CENTER>21+</CENTER></TD><TD align=right>11% </TD><TD align=right>.581 </TD><TD align=right>63% </TD><TD align=right>5% </TD><TD align=right>0.8 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

For comparison Tins stats

Secs. Att. eFG% Ast'd Blk'd Pts
0-10 41% .493 24% 8% 4.0
11-15 32% .423 11% 6% 2.7
16-20 15% .387 53% 9% 1.2
21+ 11% .289 67% 0% 0.6
Crunch 27% .346 57% 5% 1.8

DeS
03-30-2006, 08:09 AM
I read comments about Saras shooting. Well he isn't shooting any better than Jax or Tinsley, so his shooting is overrated.
I would say - his shooting was a little overrated in the beginning (some thought him being a shooter, not a pg). But You are wrong here - he is actualy shooting better:
Saras: .411 .371 .896
Tinsley: .409 .230 .641
Jackson: .411 .353 .781
Take into account that Saras shoots mostly 3 pointers. And although FG% is similar he is most effective shooter (comparing the 3) taking into account scoring-per-shot category.

Jermaniac
03-30-2006, 12:29 PM
His shooting is overrated. Period. The guy shoots everyone of his shots wide open cause people dont bother to cover him and he still cant hit them.

Mourning
03-30-2006, 01:08 PM
His shooting is overrated. Period. The guy shoots everyone of his shots wide open cause people dont bother to cover him and he still cant hit them.

Wow! I know you REALLY don't like him, but this is just plain wrong.

MAYBE, he's not shooting so well, because,lately, he gets in a few seconds and then gets taken off again if he plays at all. So, in trying to make some impact or actually prove he can do something he takes a shot a little quicker then he would normally do. It's not uncommon for that to happen either, just take a look at 75% of the games that are over with the last minute of the game entering and the "end-of benchers" getting on to the court.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Lithfan
03-30-2006, 01:20 PM
His shooting is overrated. Period. The guy shoots everyone of his shots wide open cause people dont bother to cover him and he still cant hit them.

It just shows that you are a teenager. Dont worry it will pass.

Ant
03-30-2006, 01:21 PM
[QUOTE=Unclebuck]

Spurs have as set of a subst pattern as the pacers do.


No they dont, I live in SA and have seen about 75% of the spurs games. Pop does a great job of feeling out who has a hot hand and whos not having a great game and divides the minutes accordingly. Hes not above taking the whole starting 5 out and letting the bench play if he feels they are playing lethargic. He mixes and matches with the best of them and not once have i ever seen him look at a stupid index card and let that dictate what subs he's gonna make.

Fool
03-30-2006, 01:32 PM
Pistons I grant you don't. Although Antonio is pretty set. But I think their bench would be much more productive if Flip did use a more regular subst pattern'

Sure they do. Flip's pattern is simple. Don't sub. That's pretty set IMO.

(I'm only in here for the joke, that's not actually indicative of the resent past and present.)

Unclebuck
03-30-2006, 01:33 PM
[QUOTE=Unclebuck]

. He mixes and matches with the best of them and not once have i ever seen him look at a stupid index card and let that dictate what subs he's gonna make.


Oh, I didn't know Rick's index cards were for that purpose. Yes he should be fired for that. I just didn't know

rexnom
03-30-2006, 04:26 PM
Um...am I the only one who thinks these set rotations are a good idea right now? To me it's like this:

The last three losses could have gone our way. If they had we'd all be hailing the Pacers as contenders and Carlisle as a genius. Of course it didn't and we as a fanbase are fickle. Truth is, Carlisle is an exceptional coach and he has recognized the problem and is trying to fix it.

This team has had no time to come together! They have played for four games now. Four! Two of which were a little off because of foul troubles to JO and three of which were without a key bench player. If this was the beginning of the off-season I would be feeling pretty good about this team. Now, however, we somehow have got to get our act together in the next 10 or so games and Carlisle is doing his best to do that. He wants to simply make sure players get used to each other. Peja, Jack, and JO have to get used to each other. If it takes eggtimer substitutions then so be it. Sure, I love to win and it's not like I condone giving these games away but I just think that the set rotations might help this team jell.

You don't think Carlisle thinks about this to death? Of course he does. He knows the risks too, I'm sure. He has decided to go this route and I trust him. Someone on this board once said that Carlisle has probably forgotten more about basketball than we know. I can only agree with that. Has the man earned no faith over two seasons of superb coaching?

beast23
03-30-2006, 06:01 PM
I've always supported the stance that you don't take a shooter out of the game if he's on a hot streak.

At least not until a couple of his shots hit he front of the rim... that would be a sign that he is getting tired. And even then, I'd have my trainer sitting right next to him on the bench, giving me a signal when the player's heart rate has recovered and he's ready to go back in the game. Then I'd get him back on the floor as soon as possible to see whether he's still got the touch.

Far too often through the years we've seen Reggie hotter than heck, only to be pulled by Brown, Bird, Thomas or Carlisle due to a regular substitution pattern. Then Reggie goes back into the game, and he's not the same.

I think that is ludicrous. If you've got it, flaunt it... if your shooter is hot, then ride him until he's too tired to shoot. Get him a QUICK breather, then let him shoot some more.

The way I look at it, truly special nights for shooters only come around every
once in a while. Why take your shooter out 8 minutes into the first quarter with 10 point lead when there is a chance that you can leave him in and possibly finish the quarter with a 15-18 point lead. If you don't want your team to go a longer stretch without him at the start of the second quarter, you can always call a time-out or two in the first 2-3 minutes of the second quarter to enable him to rest without losing time off the clock.

But for Pete's sake, if you have an opportunity to bury your opponent, you go for the jugular and bury the SOB's. You don't risk disrupting your scoring by pulling your shooter that's on a hot streak unless he's tired.

Unclebuck
03-30-2006, 07:25 PM
beast23 I agree with every word you just posted. But I see Rick adjusting his subst pattern depending on who is hot. I've seen him a ton of times call the player who is ready to check in back to the bench because a player on the floor gets hot.

Kstat
03-30-2006, 07:49 PM
The Spurs flip a coin to decide who starts at center and who plays backup PG.

The Pistons flip a coin to decide who backs up Prince and if they're going to play 3 big men or 4.

Ant
03-30-2006, 08:02 PM
[QUOTE=Ant]


Oh, I didn't know Rick's index cards were for that purpose. Yes he should be fired for that. I just didn't know


Point is you were incorrect about the spurs having set substitution patterns. If you wanna be smartass thats fine, i didnt mean to slander or insult your mancrush in any way. Its just annoying how stubborn and inflexible he is. I dont understand why your the only one who cant see this, blinded by love i suppose.