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Shade
03-13-2006, 10:25 PM
Have at it, yo.

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 10:27 PM
Say wha?

I like cabbage. He's not going to get many minutes for the rest of this season, but if he sticks with it and makes the necessary improvements, he'll be a big contributor off the bench next season. We just need to find a little stability at starting PG.

Anthem
03-13-2006, 10:29 PM
Thanks man. Appreciate it.

Any chance of pulling some of those posts out of the postgame thread into this one?

Unclebuck
03-13-2006, 10:29 PM
AJ and Tinsley better players. Saras is the 3rd string point guard and the third string shooting guard. Sorry, but that is life.

Fred needs 25 minutes per game, so there aren't any minutes for Saras or AJ at the backup 2

Shade
03-13-2006, 10:30 PM
Thanks man. Appreciate it.

Any chance of pulling some of those posts out of the postgame thread into this one?

I'll see what I can do, but I really suck at merging threads.

I'm sure Hicks will drop by soon enough anyway. ;)

Shade
03-13-2006, 10:33 PM
When Runi came in, he was the second-best PG on the team. But AJ has outplayed him for much of the season, and Runi's shot has really gone south lately, which is by far his strongest asset. Right now, Tins is a better passer, and AJ is a better shooter (except with the clock winding down). Both are better defenders. But remember, Runi is still only a rookie. He'll get better, and I'm sure AJ will regress again somewhere next season. He can't seem to put a full season together.

Kegboy
03-13-2006, 10:33 PM
AJ and Tinsley better players. Saras is the 4th string point guard and the third string shooting guard. Sorry, but that is life.


Fixed. :evillaugh


:bowdown: :gill:

Shade
03-13-2006, 10:34 PM
Fixed. :evillaugh


:bowdown: :gill:

It's nice to finally meet Eddie Gill's #1 fan. Maybe you'll get really lucky and he'll join the Boobkitties next season. :devil:

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 10:36 PM
Sorry Runi. Hope things get better for you.

Kegboy
03-13-2006, 10:38 PM
It's nice to finally meet Eddie Gill's #1 fan. Maybe you'll get really lucky and he'll join the Boobkitties next season. :devil:

Oh, I'm not #1. I'm just out of the closet, unlike Peck.

And Gill would suck in Charlotte's offense.

Evan_The_Dude
03-13-2006, 10:40 PM
Usually when a player that's in the regular rotation doesn't play, then there's something more to it. Like the time when AJ walked slowly to the bench causing a technical for too many players on the court... He didn't play the next night. Maybe there was a practice incident or something of the sort that caused Carlisle to bench Sarunas for this game.

Pacesetter
03-13-2006, 10:43 PM
Usually when a player that's in the regular rotation doesn't play, then there's something more to it. Like the time when AJ walked slowly to the bench causing a technical for too many players on the court... He didn't play the next night. Maybe there was a practice incident or something of the sort that caused Carlisle to bench Sarunas for this game.

If Sarunas was injured in warmups then yeah, I could see them keeping him out as a precaution.

Shade
03-13-2006, 10:44 PM
Oh, I'm not #1. I'm just out of the closet, unlike Peck.

And Gill would suck in Charlotte's offense.

How so? He can feed Peanut Butter all day. ;)

Anthem
03-13-2006, 10:45 PM
Runi's shot has really gone south lately, which is by far his strongest asset.
Yeah, I'd wanted to start a thread about that, but figured it wasn't safe because it would be baiting the Saras bandwagon.

Saras is currently shooting .370. That's what he shot last year in the Euroleague. That's also what Tinsley shot last year. Over the summer, everybody talked about how Saras' shooting was incredible, can't miss, blah blah blah. And I pointed out that if you just go by the percentages, he wasn't a better shooter than Tinsley, especially considering it was against Euro defenses at the college 3-point line.

Is Saras really that much better of a shooter than a healthy Tinsley? Broken-down Tinsley can't jump to shoot a jumper, but the healthy one has gotten pretty decent from three.

Chauncey
03-13-2006, 10:48 PM
I really wish the term "Sarass" would catch on around here..because thats how he plays.

Evan_The_Dude
03-13-2006, 10:50 PM
If Sarunas was injured in warmups then yeah, I could see them keeping him out as a precaution.

Except I wasn't just talking about injuries.

Shade
03-13-2006, 10:51 PM
Saras is currently shooting .370. That's what he shot last year in the Euroleague.

And Stephen "if he shoots the damn ball one more time I'm going to go on a killing spree, and I guarantee I'll hit a larger percentage of targets than he does" Jackson, is shooting only a slightly lower percentage from beyond the arc at 35.7%, and a slightly higher percentage from the field as a whole.

Shade
03-13-2006, 10:52 PM
I really wish the term "Sarass" would catch on around here..because thats how he plays.

I like Runi okay, but that's damn funny. :laugh:

Pacesetter
03-13-2006, 10:52 PM
I really wish the term "Sarass" would catch on around here..because thats how he plays.

Wow, did you think of that yourself?

Kstat
03-13-2006, 10:52 PM
Answer me one question: why should Saras get special treatment over any other role player in the NBA that's lost his job due to poor play or a teamate returning from injury?

And no, his international experience doesn't factor in.

Aside from that, playing 60 consecutive games is really next to meaningless in the NBA. It's not something worth caring about.

Pacesetter
03-13-2006, 10:53 PM
I like Runi okay, but that's damn funny. :laugh:

And you're supposedly an admin here? Hmmm!

Shade
03-13-2006, 10:56 PM
And you're supposedly an admin here? Hmmm!

Here's :twocents:. Buy a sense of humor. And bring back the change.

Shade
03-13-2006, 10:59 PM
OMGRUNIR00x00rz!!!!111!! He iS teh greatest of all times!!!!!!!!!ONE!!!!!!!!!1111111ONEHUNDREDELEVEN! !!!!!111!!!

Note: This post is Runi fanclub compliant.





























Just kidding, folks. Don't declare war on us or anything. :(

Pacesetter
03-13-2006, 11:01 PM
Here's :twocents:. Buy a sense of humor. And bring back the change.

:finger: Here's :twocents: ... and I'll raise you :finger: more!

Anthem
03-13-2006, 11:02 PM
And Stephen "if he shoots the damn ball one more time I'm going to go on a killing spree, and I guarantee I'll hit a larger percentage of targets than he does" Jackson, is shooting only a slightly lower percentage from beyond the arc at 35.7%, and a slightly higher percentage from the field as a whole.
:eek: Holy cow, you're right. Jax is shooting .414 overall, while Saras is shooting .411.

Shade
03-13-2006, 11:02 PM
:finger: Here's :twocents: ... and I'll raise you :finger: more!

I lost count...how much is that again?

I'm a poor college student, 'ya know. :(

Anthem
03-13-2006, 11:02 PM
Shade, I appreciate your maturity.

How old do you guys think Pacesetter is?

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 11:17 PM
This thread is funny so far. Posters are being sorry or otherwise referring to Saras' fans and writing tons of posts, while no Saras' fans participate...

Saras' discussions have been rather calm recently, which was a bit unusual. But I never thought his critics would go as far as emulating a discussion.

In result, Saras gets bashed in a way Eddie Gill never was bashed. Without any real defense:)

Shade
03-13-2006, 11:20 PM
This thread is funny so far. Posters are being sorry or otherwise referring to Saras' fans and writing tons of posts, while no Saras' fans participate...

Saras' discussions have been rather calm recently, which was a bit unusual. But I never thought his critics would go as far as emulating a discussion.

In result, Saras gets bashed in a way Eddie Gill never was bashed. Without any real defense:)

I'm not really a Runi critic. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate (and if you read the post-game thread, you'll see why I felt this one needed to be created).

Pacesetter
03-13-2006, 11:20 PM
I lost count...how much is that again?

I'm a poor college student, 'ya know. :(

Let's just hope your poverty doesn't accrue interest! ;)

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 11:23 PM
Oh, I'm not #1. I'm just out of the closet, unlike Peck.

And Gill would suck in Charlotte's offense.

Gill plays offense?

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 11:25 PM
Gill plays offense?

Gill plays?

Kstat
03-13-2006, 11:26 PM
Gill plays?

40 seconds, to be exact.

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 11:28 PM
Gill plays?
Who is this Gill character?:chin:

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 11:30 PM
Who is this Gill character?:chin:


He must be pretty good. He only played 40 seconds and everybody is all excited about it. Maybe we should start him. :-o

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 11:30 PM
Who is this Gill character?:chin:

:)

Shade
03-13-2006, 11:32 PM
He must be pretty good. He only played 40 seconds and everybody is all excited about it. Maybe we should start him. :-o

C - Bruno Sundov
PF - Primoz Brezec
SF - Eddie Gill
SG - James Jones
PG - Jamison Brewer

Best. Pacers. Starting. Five. EVER.

molten
03-13-2006, 11:53 PM
Here's some data mining for you - statistics from the games that all three PGs played 30 or more minutes:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 425pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=565 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=5 width=64><COL style="WIDTH: 37pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1735" span=5 width=49><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64 height=18></TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: black 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 144pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" width=192 colSpan=3>Jasikevicius: 5-2 (71.4%)</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 85pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" width=113 colSpan=2>AJ: 12-7 (63.2%)</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 37pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=49></TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 74pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" width=98 colSpan=2>JT: 7-3 (70%)</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 37pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=49> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>FG</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>28</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>60</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.46666666666666667">47%</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>90</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>194</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.46391752577319589">46%</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>62</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>130</TD><TD class=xl36 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.47692307692307695">48%</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>pg</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="8.5714285714285712">8.6</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="10.210526315789474">10.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>13.0</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>3PT</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>15</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>36</TD><TD class=xl36 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.41666666666666669">42%</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>13</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>42</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.30952380952380953">31%</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>19</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.21052631578947367">21%</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>pg</TD><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="2.1428571428571428">2.1</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="5.1428571428571432">5.1</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="2.2105263157894739">2.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0.4</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>1.9</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>FT</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>15</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>18</TD><TD class=xl36 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>42</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>58</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.72413793103448276">72%</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>18</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>31</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.58064516129032262">58%</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>pg</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="2.5714285714285716">2.6</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="3.0526315789473686">3.1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3.1</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Boards</TD><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="3.4285714285714284">3.4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="3.1052631578947367">3.1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl37 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4.4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Ast</TD><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="6.4285714285714288">6.4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="5.8947368421052628">5.9</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl37 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>6.7</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>TO</TD><TD class=xl37 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2.0</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="2.0526315789473686">2.1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3.1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Stl</TD><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="1.2857142857142858">1.3</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="1.1052631578947369">1.1</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl37 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>1.9</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.2pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.2pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Blk</TD><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.42857142857142855">0.4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl38 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="0.47368421052631576">0.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>0.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.8pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 13.8pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>PPG</TD><TD class=xl33 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="12.285714285714286">12.3</TD><TD class=xl34 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl35 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="12.368421052631579">12.4</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl39 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>14.6</TD><TD class=xl34 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl35 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

The team does the best with Saras (w%). From his statistics it is obvious that he hogs the ball the least, takes less attempts to score (which means others score in the meantime thus good +/- statistic), LOOSES THE BALL THE LEAST and so on. It's a close call with JT, but JT obviously is not an inclusive player.

I'll agree, it's a rather small sample, but Sarunas is just getting used to the NBA and not getting any love from anyone vs. these veterans that supposedly know the team and have endless trust from the coach. He is truly a fool for not going to Cavaliers, Bird truly must have fed him some sweet fable stories...

8.9_seconds
03-13-2006, 11:57 PM
Hey guys, remember Travis Best? That guy was so cool, he was so tiny........

that's all................

Hicks
03-13-2006, 11:57 PM
When this place isn't turning someone who's injured or getting DNP-CD's into a mythic NBA legend, it's finding a new whipping boy to kick (especially when he's down! yay!). Right now it's a race between Jack and Sarunas.

Shade
03-14-2006, 12:01 AM
When this place isn't turning someone who's injured or getting DNP-CD's into a mythic NBA legend, it's finding a new whipping boy to kick (especially when he's down! yay!). Right now it's a race between Jack and Sarunas.

Don't worry, I can single-handedly keep Jack in the lead. Oh wait, that isn't me. It's Jack's shooting that does that!

*sees that Jack shoots .003 better from the field than Runi*

Crap.









P.S. BRING IN DARKO!!!!!

SoupIsGood
03-14-2006, 12:04 AM
Don't worry, I can single-handedly keep Jack in the lead. Oh wait, that isn't me. It's Jack's shooting that does that!

*sees that Jack shoots .003 better from the field than Runi*

Crap.









P.S. BRING IN DARKO!!!!!
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y173/SoupIsGood/shade.jpg

You realize that you are my favorite poster now.

Anthem
03-14-2006, 12:07 AM
It's a close call with JT, but JT obviously is not an inclusive player.
Where are you getting that?

Anthem
03-14-2006, 12:08 AM
When this place isn't turning someone who's injured or getting DNP-CD's into a mythic NBA legend, it's finding a new whipping boy to kick (especially when he's down! yay!). Right now it's a race between Jack and Sarunas.
I don't have a problem with Sarunas. I just wish "people" would get over the fact that it's not a conspiracy keeping him out of the rotation... it's his play.

Shade
03-14-2006, 12:09 AM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y173/SoupIsGood/shade.jpg

You realize that you are my favorite poster now.

You're buying at the forum party. :buddies:

8.9_seconds
03-14-2006, 12:12 AM
I don't have a problem with Sarunas. I just wish "people" would get over the fact that it's not a conspiracy keeping him out of the rotation... it's his play.


There always has to be a scapegoat, then there always have to be people to defend the scapegoat. The truth can never be said, it's a fact, because somebody is always insulted.

Anthem
03-14-2006, 12:17 AM
There always has to be a scapegoat, then there always have to be people to defend the scapegoat. The truth can never be said, it's a fact, because somebody is always insulted.
That might be true sometimes, but not tonight. Tonight was one guy (now on ignore) that just couldn't get over the fact that Saras didn't get any PT.

McKeyFan
03-14-2006, 12:19 AM
I can see why Runi didn't play. I can see it, but I don't like it.

I think Runi gives us a chance to play at another level offensively. Currently, Tinsley and AJ are better. But with experience, Runi can be better than both of them.

I would make some sacrifices the next 20 games to get there for this year's playoffs. Rick disagrees. Rick may disagree with the entire premise.

But this is certainly true: we have struggled at point guard in the playoffs for many, many years. Runi was the move by TPTB to change that. I really do not think we've ridden this horse long enough.

Want to play okay and exit first or second round? You got it with AJ and Tins. Want to perhaps somehow find a real "next level" igniting of our team, with great passing, unselfish play, and stretched defenses from a guard who can be a shooting threat? You just might have it with Runi.

Tonight's game left little to argue with. But this issue will arise very strongly the rest of the season after losses, and continuing into playoff losses and into the summer.

Anthem
03-14-2006, 12:32 AM
I would make some sacrifices the next 20 games to get there for this year's playoffs.
Now this I can agree with. I definitely think Runi has the potential to be better than AJ, and I'd be fine with force-feeding him minutes he doesn't deserve in order to get him ready for the playoffs. I don't think he'd be better than a healthy Tinsley, but that's no knock. Not many guards are better than a healthy Tinsley. Because Tinsley has such a hard time staying healthy, though, I could see a point where we go with a guard that's not quite as good but will be available all year long.

Shade
03-14-2006, 12:38 AM
Now this I can agree with. I definitely think Runi has the potential to be better than AJ, and I'd be fine with force-feeding him minutes he doesn't deserve in order to get him ready for the playoffs. I don't think he'd be better than a healthy Tinsley, but that's no knock. Not many guards are better than a healthy Tinsley. Because Tinsley has such a hard time staying healthy, though, I could see a point where we go with a guard that's not quite as good but will be available all year long.

Ditto. I always expected Runi to be better than AJ, but never as good as a healthy Tins. And if he can still get there, God bless 'em. :usa:

8.9_seconds
03-14-2006, 12:40 AM
Dang, I like AJ.....

molten
03-14-2006, 12:40 AM
Where are you getting that?

It takes Saras 4.4 shots less to have similar ppg and assists (comes from better 3pt and FT shooting). someone else is getting these additional shots and making the team better. that +/- doesn't fall from the sky and statistics loving americans should know better. But obiously it is enough for him to just lose the ball once and the whole army of critics is ready to greet him (though he looses it less then tinsley).

Fearing for his bu** Carlisle made a big mistake not playing him while Tinsley was out. Just think, you know what you're getting from AJ and it is certainly not enough to get anywhere. Giving Sarunas a true chance - at least there was a potential upside. Simple game theory suggests you do that!

And believe me, I can get over Saras not playing, it's just mind boggling how horrible the coaching can be and how little is done to really maximize the team's potential. It's that simple.

From now on, I just need to come up with some +/- statistics while Saras is on the bench :)

Rytas_Jega
03-14-2006, 01:04 AM
Šarūnas refused to play with two Lithuanians and his former teammate and chose "a team with a shot at the NBA title".

He also refused to play for his National Team to get prepared for his first NBA season.

I respect and support his decision. NBA title is worth that and much more.

Rytas_Jega
03-14-2006, 01:10 AM
molten, NHL has special plus-minus award.

But in basketball... Šarūnas is one of the best Pacer at +/- statistics. This +/- can't be serious.

grace
03-14-2006, 01:35 AM
Aside from that, playing 60 consecutive games is really next to meaningless in the NBA. It's not something worth caring about.

You forget this is the Pacers. Anyone who plays more than a week straight is considered lucky. Anyone who plays 60 games in a row should get a medal.

Raskolnikov
03-14-2006, 01:41 AM
This thread, along with the Post Game Thread, were rather annoying to read.

Raskolnikov
03-14-2006, 01:41 AM
This thread, along with the Post Game Thread, were rather annoying to read.
Then don't read them.

Raskolnikov
03-14-2006, 01:41 AM
Then don't read them.
Ok, I won't.

CableKC
03-14-2006, 02:45 AM
I just hope that he sticks it out for the rest of the season ( and offseason ) and doesn't demand a trade.

Cuz I don't know what Bird did to get Sarunas to sign with the Pacers....but I am guessing that this wasn't the situation that he had envisioned.

But as long as we have Tinsley on the roster.....we will need a 3rd string PG like Sarunas.

Also....now that Tinsley, Freddie and AJ are back....Sarunas won't see the floor anymore.

BTW..how many players can be chosen for the Playoff roster?

I know that many of you aren't in love with Sarunas...but I would much rather have him as the 3rd string PG/SG over Gill.

Fireball Kid
03-14-2006, 02:55 AM
Ok, I won't.

Okay you two. Break it up!:nono:

Lithfan
03-14-2006, 03:16 AM
A few things.

1. As Swiss sayed: "But I never thought his critics would go as far as emulating a discussion." In attempt to clean other threads from Saras fans posts, special Saras thread was created. But the posters are critcs. isnt it funny? My initial reaction was not to post here but then I saw some interesting posts of molten and it changed my mind.

2. The answer how coach develops or kills an allstar player is JO/Portland Vs JO/Indiana. You are probably aware of this stat line don't you?

99-00 POR 70 8 12.3 .486 .000 .582 1.4 1.9 3.3 .3 .16 .79 .67 1.80 3.9
00-01 IND 81 80 32.6 .465 .000 .601 3.1 6.7 9.8 1.2 .60 2.81 1.99 3.50 12.9
01-02 IND 72 72 37.6 .479 .071 .688 2.6 7.9 10.5 1.6 .63 2.31 2.42 3.70 19.0

In fourth season in NBA JO was a punk. Coach didn't let him play above 12 min so he had poor 4/3 stat line. Some of you tell me that "stats are nothing you should watch the games". But I did saw him, because Sabonis played there. He was nothing. Much less than Hulk right now.
It took him a whole season of starting and playing 32.6 mpg to get developed and reach 12.9/9.8 stats. Still not his potential. Finally on the third year he shined 19/10.5.

So Sarunas is giving now 8/2/3 stats in 20 mpg when coach doesn't trust him. You saw some glimpses of his game in the beginning and several games ago when everybdy where injured. IF Rick EVER GAVE him trust and let him start several games, he would do better then Tins and AJ.

Do you really think Bird brought a third or excuse me UB fourth string PG here?

I thought you are better than that.

Kstat
03-14-2006, 03:29 AM
......comparing Jermaine Oneal not playing in Portland to Sarunas not playing in Indiana is flawed in so many ways I don't know where to begin.

Lithfan
03-14-2006, 03:34 AM
......comparing Jermaine Oneal not playing in Portland to Sarunas not playing in Indiana is flawed in so many ways I don't know where to begin.

What?!?

12.8 to 20 mpg are so uncompareable?

Its just shows how player development depends on the coach

Kestas
03-14-2006, 03:35 AM
When Runi came in, he was the second-best PG on the team. But AJ has outplayed him for much of the season, and Runi's shot has really gone south lately, which is by far his strongest asset. Right now, Tins is a better passer, and AJ is a better shooter (except with the clock winding down). Both are better defenders.

some terribly misleading impressions imho. I'm starting to dislike NBA again.

but I'm tired of arguing, so just be it..

Kstat
03-14-2006, 03:38 AM
What?!?

12.8 to 20 mpg are so uncompareable?

Its just shows how player development depends on the coach

development?

Jermaine Oneal was 18. He had to grow up as a human being, as a professional, as an athlete, etc. He just wasn't ready to live by himself, let alone become a force in the NBA. It may have been a mistake to trade him, but sitting him was NOT a the wrong move, because the guys in front of him were simply better players.

By the time he got to Indiana, they were in rebuilding mode, and JO's game had matured to the point where he was ready to play more.

Sarunas is 30 years old. He is what he is. So the rules are a little different, ok. There is no "developing" of him outside of him acclimating himself to the NBA. His game isn't going to change.

Also, now that Tinsley is healthy, he's a better PG that Sarunas. Sarunas has had his chance and hasn't proven otherwise. Tinsley can do everything Sarunas can do except shoot, and he hasn't even done THAT right this year, aside from FTs.

The guy could have had the backup PG job right now regardless, but he couldnt even outplay anthony johnson.

I'd ask the same question again: why should sarunas get special treatment, as opposed to any other role player who's lost his job due to poor performance? You could argue that sarunas has a better upside, but if you're carlisle and you're a few bad losses away from missing the playoffs, do you really want to chance using a player who you believe would being a lesser impact than the other guy?

A lot of role players would KILL to average 20 minutes per game for 60 games. That's more than enough time for sarunas to show his coach what he has.

Sorry, you can blame the coach, the system, the entire state of indiana. The fact remains Sarunas was beaten out for minutes by Anthony Johnson. I can't feel sorry for him in that regard.

At some point, he's got to take responsibility for failing. Being the standup guy he appears to be, I think he's more than capable of understanding why he didnt play tonight, and hopefully for him it drives him to perform better.

Lithfan
03-14-2006, 04:11 AM
development?

Jermaine Oneal was 18. He had to grow up as a human being, as a professional, as an athlete, etc. He just wasn't ready to live by himself, let alone become a force in the NBA. It may have been a mistake to trade him, but sitting him was NOT a the wrong move, because the guys in front of him were simply better players.

By the time he got to Indiana, they were in rebuilding mode, and JO's game had matured to the point where he was ready to play more.

Sarunas is 30 years old. He is what he is. So the rules are a little different, ok. There is no "developing" of him outside of him acclimating himself to the NBA. His game isn't going to change.

Also, now that Tinsley is healthy, he's a better PG that Sarunas. Sarunas has had his chance and hasn't proven otherwise. Tinsley can do everything Sarunas can do except shoot, and he hasn't even done THAT right this year, aside from FTs.

The guy could have had the backup PG job right now regardless, but he couldnt even outplay anthony johnson.

I'd ask the same question again: why should sarunas get special treatment, as opposed to any other role player who's lost his job due to poor performance? You could argue that sarunas has a better upside, but if you're carlisle and you're a few bad losses away from missing the playoffs, do you really want to chance using a player who you believe would being a lesser impact than the other guy?

A lot of role players would KILL to average 20 minutes per game for 60 games. That's more than enough time for sarunas to show his coach what he has.

Sorry, you can blame the coach, the system, the entire state of indiana. The fact remains Sarunas was beaten out for minutes by Anthony Johnson. I can't feel sorry for him in that regard.

At some point, he's got to take responsibility for failing. Being the standup guy he appears to be, I think he's more than capable of understanding why he didnt play tonight, and hopefully for him it drives him to perform better.

I disagree regarding JO point. You are right he came when he was 18 years old. But he played in Portland for 4 seasons and nothing changed. But in one season in Indiana he turned around. Yes, thats because he was given opportunity to play.

And its not development of the young player only. Its development of an older player with the new team, full court pressure everything. Its all new for Saras. And you know what? He himself never thought he would be capable to do what he has done this season so far. You underestimate that. He lost his duel to AJ. But only because:
1. Rick gave AJ starting job at PG while Saras was given this opportunity only in one game (and played great).
2. AJ plays games of his life, one of the reasons being starting.

I don't take this game as a sign for coming. May be there was something underneath like Saras loudly preferring not to play than play at 2 or injury or else. For some reason Croshere is also DNP on the boxscore.

Somehow I think Bird would prefer Saras over Rick.

Kstat
03-14-2006, 04:16 AM
Somehow I think Bird would prefer Saras over Rick.

He's not going to fire his wonderboy buddy Carlisle over the 3rd string PG. Not sayign it won't happen (although I really doubt it), but over Sarunas? No way.


He himself never thought he would be capable to do what he has done this season so far.

.....if sarunas never even thought he had his CURRENT level of play in him, then he's in trouble.

Lithfan
03-14-2006, 05:25 AM
He's not going to fire his wonderboy buddy Carlisle over the 3rd string PG. Not sayign it won't happen (although I really doubt it), but over Sarunas? No way.



.....if sarunas never even thought he had his CURRENT level of play in him, then he's in trouble.


1. I think Bird dislikes Ricks style of play. And he likes Saras a lot, he didn't brought him to be 3d string PG nor SG.

2. You tend to forget how Saras played two months ago. Its not CURRENT level but his overall season is OK. He didn't hope for more than 20 min, 8 points 3 ast. However, he could have done more if got a starting role immedeately after Tins was out. The thing he did hoped for was a shot for the championship.

Rytas_Jega
03-14-2006, 05:33 AM
Chicago's Lithuanians have bought 2000 tickets to Bulls-Pacers game :D Songaila won't play because of injury. And it seems quite possible Šaras won't play, too.

Julius Sour
03-14-2006, 05:39 AM
What?!?

12.8 to 20 mpg are so uncompareable?

Its just shows how player development depends on the coach

I'd rather try to compare A+A Drazen Petrovic's days at JailBlazers with his time at Nets.

Thank You.

have a good day

Js

Chauncey
03-14-2006, 07:02 AM
Speaking of comparable players...someone run stats comparing Sarass to Brad Lohaus..thats much better than comparing Sarass to JO.

SwissExpress
03-14-2006, 07:05 AM
Chicago's Lithuanians have bought 2000 tickets to Bulls-Pacers game :D Songaila won't play because of injury. And it seems quite possible äaras won't play, too.

That's sad...

Lithfan
03-14-2006, 07:13 AM
Speaking of comparable players...someone run stats comparing Sarass to Brad Lohaus..thats much better than comparing Sarass to JO.

Its not about comparing Sarassssssss to JO its about showing how coach decision can influence player impact.

Pacesetter
03-14-2006, 07:27 AM
Its not about comparing Sarassssssss to JO its about showing how coach decision can influence player impact.

Exactly!!!! :cool:

Hicks
03-14-2006, 09:46 AM
I still don't believe AJ is better. Tinsley? Certainly. AJ? Not really. Especially now that Tinsley's back and that seems to have subconciously reverted AJ to his old self.

Outlaw
03-14-2006, 10:10 AM
You forget this is the Pacers. Anyone who plays more than a week straight is considered lucky. Anyone who plays 60 games in a row should get a medal.

True!!! :laugh:

Hicks
03-14-2006, 10:29 AM
Let it be known that grace wants to give "Cabbage" a medal. :D

Shade
03-14-2006, 10:32 AM
I still don't believe AJ is better. Tinsley? Certainly. AJ? Not really. Especially now that Tinsley's back and that seems to have subconciously reverted AJ to his old self.

Currently, Saras is possibly better than AJ. It's like I said, when Tins returns, it's like the clock just struck midnight and AJ turns back into a pumpkin or something.

I've bashed AJ a lot, but I have to give him major props for stepping up with
Tins out. It's unfortunate that he can't seem to continue that high level of play when faced with the prospect of returning to the bench.

FrenchConnection
03-14-2006, 10:53 AM
Chicago's Lithuanians have bought 2000 tickets to Bulls-Pacers game :D Songaila won't play because of injury. And it seems quite possible äaras won't play, too.

So what, they get to see an NBA game. I don't go to the game to watch Americans play. People need to lose the nationalism. If they want to see Lithuanians play basketball, there are whole teams of them in Lithuania that they could go watch if they wanted. One of the great developments in the NBA over the past 10 years or so has been its internationalization. If for some reason they don't like watching Americans play, enjoy Peja and Nocioni.

McKeyFan
03-14-2006, 10:54 AM
Its not about comparing Sarassssssss to JO its about showing how coach decision can influence player impact.

Ever notice that Sarass and ****** are kinda similar?

McKeyFan
03-14-2006, 10:55 AM
His name is censored? Wow, that's more infamy than John Wilkes Booth. (See, it wasn't censored.)

Hicks
03-14-2006, 10:57 AM
I've bashed AJ a lot, but I have to give him major props for stepping up with
Tins out. It's unfortunate that he can't seem to continue that high level of play when faced with the prospect of returning to the bench.

Self-fulfilling prophecies are always a hoot.

Hicks
03-14-2006, 10:59 AM
His name is censored? Wow, that's more infamy than John Wilkes Booth. (See, it wasn't censored.)

Months ago he asked me to remove references to his name, and it kept coming back up in new posts. So instead of always editing posts, I just censored the word.

DeS
03-14-2006, 11:07 AM
So what, they get to see an NBA game. I don't go to the game to watch Americans play. People need to lose the nationalism. If they want to see Lithuanians play basketball, there are whole teams of them in Lithuania that they could go watch if they wanted. One of the great developments in the NBA over the past 10 years or so has been its internationalization. If for some reason they don't like watching Americans play, enjoy Peja and Nocioni.
Well, that was rude from You (accusing 2000 lithuanians being nationalists). I wish You buy tickets into pacers games (NBA price) and watch some Euroleague games instead and enjoy the internacionalization.

FrenchConnection
03-14-2006, 11:21 AM
Well, that was rude from You (accusing 2000 lithuanians being nationalists). I wish You buy tickets into pacers games (NBA price) and watch some Euroleague games instead and enjoy the internacionalization.

I am not sure what you mean by all of this. I do buy tickets to NBA games all the time (well not as much as before I had kids, but you will have to talk to my wife about that). If they show up to watch Lithuanians instead of their home-town team (the Bulls), then they are engaging in nationalist behavior. I am not saying that they are nationalists in the negaitve sense (not violent or hate-filled), but they are exhibiting nationalist behavior. The great thing about the NBA is that we like the players on our team, regardless of where they are from. Same thing with the NHL. My wife (likes hockey but HATES basketball) is Russian and we were both happy when the Sabres let Zhitnik go and brought in Toni Lydman (a Fin). He is a better player and we don't care where he is from. When the Czechs won the gold medal in Nagano, Sabres' fans hung a gold medal on the statue of the goalie in front of HSBC Arena. Because Hasek had won, it was as if we had won. Routing for players from one country or another is nationalist behavior (nationalism doesn't have to be a negative term if it is used in the technical sense) and I wish that people could just enjoy the games. All I am saying is that those 2000 Lithuanians in Chicago should enjoy their hometown team.

BTW, I wish that we could watch European basketball games here in the US. That is some good ball that you play over there. And I don't way that because I have some undying love for J.R. Holden (CSKA Moskva), Scoonie Penn (Lighting it up for Cibona Zagreb) or Antonio Granger (Efes Pilsen), it is because teams share the ball and get out a run. We should at least get the Euroleague Finals on NBA TV or something. I think that there is an audience for that here in the states.

SwissExpress
03-14-2006, 11:33 AM
So what, they get to see an NBA game. I don't go to the game to watch Americans play. People need to lose the nationalism. If they want to see Lithuanians play basketball, there are whole teams of them in Lithuania that they could go watch if they wanted. One of the great developments in the NBA over the past 10 years or so has been its internationalization. If for some reason they don't like watching Americans play, enjoy Peja and Nocioni.

That was an in-advance organized event by local community in order to support players from their home country. I think that most Lithuanians in Chicago never before had a chance to see two members of Lithuanian NT playing at the same time. Till this year there never were more than one member of Lithuanian NT in the NBA, and now they have Songaila and Jasikevicius playing together in their home court, thus they are trying to make the most of it. I think it's silly and offensive to criticize them for that.

FrenchConnection
03-14-2006, 12:16 PM
That was an in-advance organized event by local community in order to support players from their home country. I think that most Lithuanians in Chicago never before had a chance to see two members of Lithuanian NT playing at the same time. Till this year there never were more than one member of Lithuanian NT in the NBA, and now they have Songaila and Jasikevicius playing together in their home court, thus they are trying to make the most of it. I think it's silly and offensive to criticize them for that.

First of all, I didn't know that it was an organizaed event. I didn't have time to read the whole thread. But, I guess this is the difference between Europeans and Americans in their sports watching habits. The whole national team phenomenon has no interest for me. I like my home teams, regardless of where the players are from. I hate Shaq and Kobe, even when they play on team USA. I didn't like it when fans at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta were over the top in their nationalist support for the US basketball team. I prefer club football (Leeds United and Dynamo Moskva) to the Worldcup or European Championship. I like tennis played in regular events more than the Davis Cup. I like club hockey (Buffalo Sabres and Dynamo Moskva) much more than the Olympics or the World Championships. I hate the World Baseball Classic. I much prefer club basketball to international events. I guess that I am internationalist at heart and have little patience for all of the flag waving and nationalist hatred that comes along with international sports. If they live in Chicago, they should be Bulls fans. This is not an American nationalist argument for integration, but rather an argument against nationalism in sports. Don't you think that is is great that Peja and Hedo Turkoglu could play on the same team? I could go on, but I feel as if I am in the minority in all of this so I will stop here.

RWB
03-14-2006, 12:31 PM
If they live in Chicago, they should be Bulls fans.

I understand where you're coming from FC, but it's not that simple. I was born and raised in Indiana, thus a Pacers' fan. If I had too relocate to Utah I know in my heart even though I would then be a Ute citizen my team would always be the Pacers. You always wind up cheering for your team because of some particular connection, the roots have to be strong.

SwissExpress
03-14-2006, 12:40 PM
Probably they are Bulls fans, who knows. Most of them have lived in US probably since the late 30s-early 40s (the early WWII era) or were born there. So I guess most of them were and are Bulls fans. But does it really mean that they can't be their NT fans at the same time?

Hmmm, even Sabonis, Galis, Marciulionis and other Euro national team leaders were Jordan's, Malone's and Barkley's fans at some point. At least they were asking for pictures and autographs in the Barcelona Olympics. That does not mean they weren't fans of their own NTs at the same time.

#31
03-16-2006, 10:05 AM
I still don't believe AJ is better. Tinsley? Certainly. AJ? Not really. Especially now that Tinsley's back and that seems to have subconciously reverted AJ to his old self.

I agree, i just dont only agree... but that is the true. AJ surprised us all tho, its obvious that he wanted his minutes over Saras and AJ played his ****in crap off!!!! I HAVE NEVER EVER seen AJ play this good in my life....... he is even ballhogging ffs! The man is so serious about his minutes!

Kestas
03-16-2006, 10:46 AM
I am not sure what you mean by all of this. I do buy tickets to NBA games all the time (well not as much as before I had kids, but you will have to talk to my wife about that). If they show up to watch Lithuanians instead of their home-town team (the Bulls), then they are engaging in nationalist behavior. I am not saying that they are nationalists in the negaitve sense (not violent or hate-filled), but they are exhibiting nationalist behavior. The great thing about the NBA is that we like the players on our team, regardless of where they are from. Same thing with the NHL. My wife (likes hockey but HATES basketball) is Russian and we were both happy when the Sabres let Zhitnik go and brought in Toni Lydman (a Fin). He is a better player and we don't care where he is from. When the Czechs won the gold medal in Nagano, Sabres' fans hung a gold medal on the statue of the goalie in front of HSBC Arena. Because Hasek had won, it was as if we had won. Routing for players from one country or another is nationalist behavior (nationalism doesn't have to be a negative term if it is used in the technical sense) and I wish that people could just enjoy the games. All I am saying is that those 2000 Lithuanians in Chicago should enjoy their hometown team.

BTW, I wish that we could watch European basketball games here in the US. That is some good ball that you play over there. And I don't way that because I have some undying love for J.R. Holden (CSKA Moskva), Scoonie Penn (Lighting it up for Cibona Zagreb) or Antonio Granger (Efes Pilsen), it is because teams share the ball and get out a run. We should at least get the Euroleague Finals on NBA TV or something. I think that there is an audience for that here in the states.

may I advise you to stop writing on this subject?

Thank you.

D-BONE
03-16-2006, 10:54 AM
I believe if you look at overall performance during time on the floor this year there is absolutely no question that AJ has been the best PG up to this point. Any other discussion is purely hypothetical b/c Tins and Saras have not seen extended time for whatever reasons.

Now, as far as the debate about who is the most talented player and therefore, in some utopian situation free of injuries and PG logjams, should be option one at that position, I have come to the conclusion that they type of guy I want is none of the above.

My realization is I think we've got three guys, none of which even free of injury and with sufficient PT, would be in the top 10 PGs in the league. Lots of clamor to remedy our SG situation in the off season. Please do. Fast! I know PGs don't grow on trees, but we gotta get something done there. Our three guys wouldn't start on half the teams in the league.

Sort this situation out already. As far as Saras, if he can really be an impact player, put him in already. Or trade him so he can get a chance to sink or swim elsewhere.

Kegboy
03-16-2006, 11:50 AM
Scoonie Penn (Lighting it up for Cibona Zagreb)

I loved Scoonie Penn. Good to hear he's doing well.

Fool
03-16-2006, 03:19 PM
may I advise you to stop writing on this subject?

Thank you.

Why should he?

denyfizle
03-16-2006, 03:56 PM
it's easy to assume that the Cabbage Experiment seems to be over. i don't see Runi coming off the 3rd PG spot unless JT or AJ get seriously hurt. i'm not real happy with it but i can't say AJ doesn't deserve to play either. it'll be interesting to see what will happen with Runi in the offseason.

Pacesetter
03-16-2006, 10:11 PM
"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week - which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men." - the Captain

brichard
03-16-2006, 11:12 PM
I just can't imagine that Larry is real happy right now. Saras was his golden boy and now he is a towel boy. At least his lack of contribution won't fester with Peck and not re-signing that old Dale fellow. ;)

Doncikaz
03-17-2006, 05:15 AM
I just can't imagine that Larry is real happy right now. Saras was his golden boy and now he is a towel boy. At least his lack of contribution won't fester with Peck and not re-signing that old Dale fellow. ;)

how `bout making him a water-boy and let him loose like in that old movie?

Julius Sour
03-18-2006, 10:32 AM
let's wait and see where this situation will bring Pacers...
Has AJ steped back? Is Saras the One AJ had to beat?

Okey okey, AJ did 9 AST, which I find fantastic, even E.T. :)

Js

udi
03-18-2006, 01:50 PM
Sarunas

we the Maccabi fans from TZAHEVET love you
take it izi

Udi

Lithfan
03-19-2006, 06:08 AM
Damn!!!

Rick is literally killing Saras.

One more game on the bench and he is finished.

It would take him weeks to get back to the NBA playing form.

Don't you think its unwise decision? Especially when Tins can get injured (sorry) any minute.

I agree that both AJ and Tins are playing better than Saras did in last games. I think its because coach plays him out of position and doesn't give him a fair chance. He showed what he is capable of when started just 5 games ago. Many of you think otherwise.

In any case he isn't Eddi Gill in anybody's opinion. Don't you think its a huge huge huge waste if he continues to be benched? There is no way he will stay in Indiana after this season if the benching continues. And its too pity that Indiana will loose an important player who could have become starting PG just because Rick doesn't feel like having more than 2 players rotation at PG.

Don't you think Rick decision is too drastical?

I mean instead of cutting his PT from 20 to 10 min or so, letting him play and stay in shape and eventually give him an opportunity to get out of the slump, he just benches him completely. This is a murder and a huge waste that will eventually turn out as a mistake and cause harm to Pacers.

Or there are more things that I/we don't know?

CableKC
03-19-2006, 07:54 AM
Damn!!!

Rick is literally killing Saras.

One more game on the bench and he is finished.

It would take him weeks to get back to the NBA playing form.

Don't you think its unwise decision? Especially when Tins can get injured (sorry) any minute.

I agree that both AJ and Tins are playing better than Saras did in last games. I think its because coach plays him out of position and doesn't give him a fair chance. He showed what he is capable of when started just 5 games ago. Many of you think otherwise.

In any case he isn't Eddi Gill in anybody's opinion. Don't you think its a huge huge huge waste if he continues to be benched? There is no way he will stay in Indiana after this season if the benching continues. And its too pity that Indiana will loose an important player who could have become starting PG just because Rick doesn't feel like having more than 2 players rotation at PG.

Don't you think Rick decision is too drastical?

I mean instead of cutting his PT from 20 to 10 min or so, letting him play and stay in shape and eventually give him an opportunity to get out of the slump, he just benches him completely. This is a murder and a huge waste that will eventually turn out as a mistake and cause harm to Pacers.

Or there are more things that I/we don't know?
I know its hard to take.....but I think that Sarunas has to get used to this for the rest of the season.

With the way that Tinsley has been playing and AJ reverting back to the pumpkin that he was spawned from........there is no way that Sarunas is gonna play any significant minutes.

I just hope that no European Basketball beat writer interviews him and asks him how he feels now until the start of next years training camp......cuz can pretty much guess what his response is.....:rolleyes:

Lithfan
03-19-2006, 08:57 AM
I know its hard to take.....but I think that Sarunas has to get used to this for the rest of the season.

With the way that Tinsley has been playing and AJ reverting back to the pumpkin that he was spawned from........there is no way that Sarunas is gonna play any significant minutes.

I just hope that no European Basketball beat writer interviews him and asks him how he feels now until the start of next years training camp......cuz can pretty much guess what his response is.....:rolleyes:

As I said, both Tins and AJ are playing better at the moment. But when you bench a player completely then you lose him and have no option to bring him back and expect decent performance. Moreover you don't give him opportunity to come back. How can he if he doesn't play?

So not to play any significant minutes (10mpg lies in this category) is one thing and to bench completely is the other.

And don't worry about interviews, worry about loosing a player due to poor coach decision.

Rytas_Jega
03-19-2006, 09:23 AM
Hornets' Arvydas Macijauskas has said NBA is a paradise.

You get 2.5 million per season, best seats at Hornets home games like Jack Nicholson at Los Angeles and away NBA games that Jack Nicholson doesn't. No hard Europe-like team trainings.

Šaras should take his situation somehow like that. He gets more money and plays for a better team.

:)

GntsTel
03-19-2006, 09:36 AM
Hornets' Arvydas Macijauskas has said NBA is a paradise.

You get 2.5 million per season, best seats at Hornets home games like Jack Nicholson at Los Angeles and away NBA games that Jack Nicholson doesn't. No hard Europe-like team trainings.

äaras should take his situation somehow like that. He gets more money and plays for a better team.

:)

Correction of the last sentence:

... and watches the games of a better team.

Hicks
03-19-2006, 10:15 AM
He gets PAID millions of dollars to see NBA superstars like Peja Stojakovic and Jermaine O'Neal and up-coming star Danny Granger play EVERY NIGHT. COURTSIDE. :-o

;)

Kestas
03-19-2006, 10:16 AM
Damn!!!

Rick is literally killing Saras.

One more game on the bench and he is finished.

It would take him weeks to get back to the NBA playing form.



everybody knows that they train less in NBA, but that doesn't mean they don't train at all, so I think you're exaggerating his form issues ;). the only thing that could harm his form imho is the lack of motivation and clearly such a development is not out of the question. he may decide that this team is not worth his effort anyways.. it's (still) unlikely, however.

able
03-19-2006, 10:30 AM
As I said, both Tins and AJ are playing better at the moment. But when you bench a player completely then you loose him and have no option to bring him back and expect decent performance. Moreover you don't give him opportunity to come back. How can he if he doesn't play?

So not to play any significant minutes (10mpg lies in this category) is one thing and to bench completely is the other.

And don't worry about interviews, worry about loosing a player due to poor coach decision.
That is a statement that is wrong, very wrong, it is up to the player to be ready whenever his number is called.

Go back a few years, when Tinsley was benched in favour of Kenny Anderson, and did not get to play for months. until.......... Rick got thrown out of the game, Brown was taking over and us being down 28 or something let Tins get in and play.
We nearly won the game, Tins got some minutes the next game and started again the one after that.
THAT my friend is the mentality the player should have and is one some here say Tins does not have, (see his pouting stories) but does have.

If Saras can not do that, then he should never contemplate playing in the NBA.

Anthem
03-19-2006, 10:53 AM
I'm mostly trying to stay out of this thread, but able's right. You've got to be ready when your number is called. If James Jones and Austin Croshere can do it, I expect it from "the best guard in Europe."

denyfizle
03-19-2006, 11:49 AM
I think Runi will get his chance again. This benching might even benefit him in the long run. Hopefully he will get to appreciate being given PT in the NBA more and actually play better than ever and take- with a smile- any role RC will give him. If he doesn't, then I hope he gets traded to a team that will give him a chance to shine. He is toooooooooooooooooooo damn good even for the NBA to be a 3rd string PG.

ChicagoJ
03-19-2006, 01:37 PM
:sleep:

Did we talk about Siggy this much?

Tinsley's play has been stellar and smart. Granger is emerging into a star. JO is coming back soon.

Jackson has even played less-selfishly in recent games, and we saw how much the team missed super-sub Fred when he out.

I guess there really is nothing to talk about except the third-string PG.

:D

Los Angeles
03-19-2006, 01:41 PM
:sleep:

Did we talk about Siggy this much?

Tinsley's play has been stellar and smart. Granger is emerging into a star. JO is coming back soon.

Jackson has even played less-selfishly in recent games, and we saw how much the team missed super-sub Fred when he out.

I guess there really is nothing to talk about except the third-string PG.

:D
And finally, he's third string.

I'm going to start calling you Nostradamus. Just do me a favor and start calling JO "Iron Man", Peja "clutch", and Harrison a "cool-headed starting center."

:)

Seed
03-19-2006, 02:41 PM
Or there are more things that I/we don't know?

This is just a hunch, but I think Runi did not make his best effort as a SG. Or at least Rick thinks so.
If that's true then he deserves some thinking time on the bench.

Peck
03-19-2006, 03:01 PM
This is just a hunch, but I think Runi did not make his best effort as a SG. Or at least Rick thinks so.
If that's true then he deserves some thinking time on the bench.

I have a feeling your hunch is correct.

Seed
03-19-2006, 03:20 PM
Sorry Runi fans, but this is about the only thing that explains his complete (and justified) benching.

The good news for his fans is that his long distance shot and his creativity are very much needed (downtown % is dropping without him. Other teams will realize it soon). He will get his chances.

Lithfan
03-19-2006, 04:03 PM
That is a statement that is wrong, very wrong, it is up to the player to be ready whenever his number is called.

Go back a few years, when Tinsley was benched in favour of Kenny Anderson, and did not get to play for months. until.......... Rick got thrown out of the game, Brown was taking over and us being down 28 or something let Tins get in and play.
We nearly won the game, Tins got some minutes the next game and started again the one after that.
THAT my friend is the mentality the player should have and is one some here say Tins does not have, (see his pouting stories) but does have.

If Saras can not do that, then he should never contemplate playing in the NBA.

All right, to get real here:

You don't lose a player completely but you lose his touch. And usually it takes a lot of time to regain it. Therefore a graduate change is better when player still gets some PT.

Don't you think?

May be it indeed related to SG position.

Kestas
03-19-2006, 04:49 PM
Sorry Runi fans, but this is about the only thing that explains his complete (and justified) benching.


you sound like you just invented a byscicle. Saras is not SG and he will never be as good the SG as he already is a PG. he got benched, because he can't do what coach wants him to do and not because he's not good enough at what he can do. appearently at what coach expects from a PG Tinsley and even AJ are way better. I'm 100% sure that in the different sircumstances (say, Maccabi, Barcelona or LTU national team), Saras would be much better, but let's say this is not important in this context..

if he comes back to the court (and he will, obviously) and has to play at SG, I suspect he will not be happy, if you know what I mean. and nobody will..

Seed
03-19-2006, 05:26 PM
you sound like you just invented a byscicle.
I wouldn't go that far... (not when I can ride my bike, that is). ;)



if he comes back to the court (and he will, obviously) and has to play at SG, I suspect he will not be happy, if you know what I mean. and nobody will..
If I were him at this point, I'd do my best at any position. Ironically, I think it will probably be the SG for the time being (unless some injuries will occur). Team will have a hard time with only Peja as a long distance threat.

Kegboy
03-19-2006, 07:24 PM
:sleep:

Did we talk about Siggy this much?


Considering he was not only the "best" point we had, but also the best dresser since the ABA days, and had a cool nickname with an equally cool backstory to boot, we sure should have.

Siggy = :cool:

bulletproof
03-19-2006, 07:30 PM
I don't know why we signed the guy. It appears Bird and Carlisle weren't on the same page. He should have been allowed to sign somewhere else.

Los Angeles
03-19-2006, 07:34 PM
I don't know why we signed the guy. It appears Bird and Carlisle weren't on the same page. He should have been allowed to sign somewhere else.
I'm open to the idea that it was just the first step in a multi-step plan to remake the team at that position. Tinsley's injury may have screwed up (or postponed) a needed trade (step two).

Bball
03-19-2006, 07:50 PM
I'm open to the idea that it was just the first step in a multi-step plan to remake the team at that position. Tinsley's injury may have screwed up (or postponed) a needed trade (step two).

What you said... or not on the same page as Bulletprood said... or...

Bird simply knew this was Carlisle's last year from the get-go but didn't want to lose Sarunas to another team in the interim.

Or maybe Bird is as disappointed in Sarunas as some foreign fans are.

-Bball

waterjater
03-19-2006, 07:58 PM
What Carlisle is doing with Saras makes no sense to me. NONE! He feeds the post and hits guys in scoring position better than anyone else on this team. I can live with occasional turnovers and mental mistakes because he's out their competing for every second he's on the court...which CAN'T be said for several of our players.

It seems so ridiculously simple to who should play and who should not and Saras is one that needs to play. He's a player, not a safe, do it the same way all the time point guard who can't make the right pass on a fast break to save his life.

Tinsley/Saras are the PT guards
Jones/Jackson (and in that order) are the shooting guards and even Jones needs to learn how to pass the ball!
Granger/Oneal/Peja Forwards
Foster/Pollard are the Centers
Harrison is a player when one the above five are injured.

I could care less how good AJ plays periodically....don't like his game at all.

Water

ChicagoJ
03-19-2006, 09:00 PM
you sound like you just invented a byscicle. Saras is not SG and he will never be as good the SG as he already is a PG. he got benched, because he can't do what coach wants him to do and not because he's not good enough at what he can do. appearently at what coach expects from a PG Tinsley and even AJ are way better. I'm 100% sure that in the different sircumstances (say, Maccabi, Barcelona or LTU national team), Saras would be much better, but let's say this is not important in this context..

if he comes back to the court (and he will, obviously) and has to play at SG, I suspect he will not be happy, if you know what I mean. and nobody will..

The team needed someone to step up at SG, and Saras bellyached about it and played poorly.

Right now, the team really needs Granger to play PF, but he's a natural SF. Thank goodness we don't have legions of UNM fans on here whining about Danny being asked to play somewhere other than his best/ natural position.

If Saras had Granger's winning attitude and willingness to help his team no matter what role he's asked to play, people would be a lot less critical of him.

Saras (and his fans) expected him to be handed stuff on a golden platter. That's not how it works, and the sulking about playing SG and the other derogatory comments haven't helped.

We've got two rookies on this team. But only one of them has shown the right attitude and on-court performance to earn significant minutes in the rotation at this time of the season. The other guy has yet to earn a spot in the rotation when everyone is healthy.

With our PG's histories, Saras could be back on the court anytime. But not on his own merits.

Several of us have been saying since he was signed that Saras' best hope to crack the rotation was as the "combo guard" backing up both the SG and PG positions. But AJ and Fred have outplayed him. If we went to a three-guard rotation he'd be the third choice for "backup G", too.

molten
03-19-2006, 09:12 PM
The team needed someone to step up at SG, and Saras bellyached about it and played poorly.

Right now, the team really needs Granger to play PF, but he's a natural SF. Thank goodness we don't have legions of UNM fans on here whining about Danny being asked to play somewhere other than his best/ natural position.

If Saras had Granger's winning attitude and willingness to help his team no matter what role he's asked to play, people would be a lot less critical of him.

Saras (and his fans) expected him to be handed stuff on a golden platter. That's not how it works, and the sulking about playing SG and the other derogatory comments haven't helped.

We've got two rookies on this team. But only one of them has shown the right attitude and on-court performance to earn significant minutes in the rotation at this time of the season. The other guy has yet to earn a spot in the rotation when everyone is healthy.

With our PG's histories, Saras could be back on the court anytime. But not on his own merits.

Several of us have been saying since he was signed that Saras' best hope to crack the rotation was as the "combo guard" backing up both the SG and PG positions. But AJ and Fred have outplayed him. If we went to a three-guard rotation he'd be the third choice for "backup G", too.

your signature quotes imply that you actually want Saras to play (except for defence part). Am I missing something here?

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 02:00 AM
After the last game, please tell me its not something personal.
Both PGs are not doing well, especially Tinsley with 2-12 FG and only 2 assists.
Offense is totally collapsed. Golden opportunity to bring a spark from the bench.

Was there any professional reason not to give Saras at least 5 minutes PT?

WTF?

Peck
03-20-2006, 02:09 AM
After the last game, please tell me its not something personal.
Both PGs are not doing well, especially Tinsley with 2-12 FG and only 2 assists.
Offense is totally collapsed. Golden opportunity to bring a spark from the bench.

Was there any professional reason not to give Saras at least 5 minutes PT?

WTF?


There is only one professional reason I can think of.

He is being punished.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's the only thing that makes sense. Was he playing great? No, he wasn't. But was he playing bad enough to get DNP-CD's? No, he wasn't.

My gut feeling is that Saras either just came out & told Rick he didn't want to be a combo guard or Rick felt like he was dogging it when he was playing as a two.

Bird truely F'd this up big time. Why did he not know this before he signed him? Did Bird even consult Carlisle?

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 03:40 AM
There is only one professional reason I can think of.

He is being punished.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's the only thing that makes sense. Was he playing great? No, he wasn't. But was he playing bad enough to get DNP-CD's? No, he wasn't.

My gut feeling is that Saras either just came out & told Rick he didn't want to be a combo guard or Rick felt like he was dogging it when he was playing as a two.

Bird truely F'd this up big time. Why did he not know this before he signed him? Did Bird even consult Carlisle?

Punishment is not professional reason IMO.

I also feel that something must have happened between them.

Hicks
03-20-2006, 06:23 AM
I don't buy the "punishment" theory for a second. Rick doesn't want to play 3 PGs in his rotation.

ssmall
03-20-2006, 06:27 AM
What Hick said. Imo Saras will see playing time only if someone is injured. Rick just set his mind to use two PG's so there will be less confusion amongst them. Saras suffers from it but he had to choose two.

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 06:34 AM
I don't buy the "punishment" theory for a second. Rick doesn't want to play 3 PGs in his rotation.

If so, please Hicks and ssmall, explain me why Saras didn't play a minute yesterday?

Rick doesn't want to lay 3 PGs seems childish - its a wish not a logical explanation. I know that is what he said though. This implies that DNP is a punishment.

Saras could have helped Pacers to win yesterday.

Hicks
03-20-2006, 06:50 AM
It's not a wild idea for an NBA coach to only want to play 2 PGs. Especially when he has two SGs in the rotation already (so none of the 1's can play minutes at the 2). You simply don't see teams play with 3 PGs during a usual game; it doesn't happen unless there's a blowout or injuries.

DeS
03-20-2006, 06:58 AM
Well, although I also advocated the "punishment" theory, maybe Hicks and ssmall are right. There is no secret Rick never liked Saras (except maybe a start). And now that Rick has an opportunity to get rid of Saras (and to get rid of the PG controversy problems) - he do it, no punishment. For You Lithfan (not wanting to play 3PGs) maybe is childish, but we all know the so-called Ricks "stubbornes". It will take yet another couple of loosing games for Rick to rethink his postion.

Beowulfas
03-20-2006, 07:16 AM
It will take yet another couple of loosing games for Rick to rethink his postion.


If Indiana will not win 3 out of next 8, then he will surely think about benching Saras twice.
Away Miami, Memphis, Milwaukee, triple M, triple L :)
Detroit, Phoenix home or away doesn't matter, double L :)
And today Pacers are capable of not winning against Chicago/Phily (home), Atlanta (away), 1-2? :) 2-1 at best. So 2-6 is not far away ;)
Your Stephen Blackhole is going to shoot somewhat 22 out of 100 during this streak ;)

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 08:14 AM
It's not a wild idea for an NBA coach to only want to play 2 PGs. Especially when he has two SGs in the rotation already (so none of the 1's can play minutes at the 2). You simply don't see teams play with 3 PGs during a usual game; it doesn't happen unless there's a blowout or injuries.

It may be not a wild idea when you have Eddie Gill as a 3d PG.

When you have Saras its different - even if he played some bad games, you know that he can get out there and change a momentum. Why not to try him when everything else is collapsing?

Unless you, as some other people believe that last loss was solely due to poor D.

Hicks
03-20-2006, 10:21 AM
The Denver Nuggest had Andre Miller, Earl Boykins, and Earl Watson earlier this season. The only time all 3 played was when they gave Andre time at the 2-guard, and even then it was only to showcase Watson before trading him. You don't play 3 PGs in a rotation in the NBA.

ChicagoJ
03-20-2006, 10:23 AM
An eight man rotation only has three guards. It certainly doesn't have three PGs.

You want a reason - Rick's trying to steer this team toward its playoff rotations, and since Fred is still not remotely comfortable at PG we're already playing too many guards even when Saras sits.

The question isn't whether there are any more minutes for Saras, but if either AJ or Fred are going to have their minutes cut as the playoffs get closer.

Hicks
03-20-2006, 10:39 AM
Rick will never use an 8 man rotation.

ChicagoJ
03-20-2006, 11:20 AM
Rick's never had a combo guard. Never is a long, long time.

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 11:52 AM
Any particular reason, beside stating a fact that you don't use 3 PGs in NBA?

Seed
03-20-2006, 12:07 PM
Rick's never had a combo guard. Never is a long, long time.

I agree with you he should have been benched. I still have the feeling Rick wouldn't make him a total DNP unless he thought Sarunas can do more.

Still, Pacers are 17 from 59 for 3 points in the last 4 games (28.8%), and he can certainly help with ball movement, court vision.

What would you do if you were Rick? Give another shot at playing him as a combo guard?

rexnom
03-20-2006, 12:22 PM
I understand how frustrating this is to many of you. It is to me as well. I was a huge fan of the Saras signing. However, it's the NBA. It's tough sometimes. He knew that coming in. Saras is not done for. I am almost sure he is more motivated now than ever. I bet you the next chance he gets, he'll take full advantage of it. Even at the off guard. I just don't think we should be discussing this as much as we are. It just happens. It's the NBA. I think we might look at a PG in the draft (to replace Eddie Gill) and then trade Jamaal or AJ. I think Saras is the most likely of the four to stay here next year. We all know he can be a great player and who knows, he might even develop into that consistent floor general we need (pgs can develop late). Now, however, we have a nice rotation with AJ and JT, two solid guys. No reason really to mess that up...and the whole only two pgs thing is very true. It only turns out bad when you play all three point guards.

Hicks
03-20-2006, 01:49 PM
I just want to state that I think any notion of Sarunas refusing to play 2 is bogus. I don't remember if I read that here or in another thread, but either way I think that's completey false. I think Rick likes Fred better than Sarunas as the backup 2. And so do I.

Mourning
03-20-2006, 02:02 PM
I just want to state that I think any notion of Sarunas refusing to play 2 is bogus. I don't remember if I read that here or in another thread, but either way I think that's completey false. I think Rick likes Fred better than Sarunas as the backup 2. And so do I.

Aggreed!

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 02:06 PM
Any particular reason, beside stating a fact that you don't use 3 PGs in NBA?

I want to ask once again since I didn't get an answer:

Why 2 PG rotation is better than 3 PG rotation?
If someone plays bad in any particular game why not to give a chance to somebody else?

Arcadian
03-20-2006, 02:12 PM
Going into the playoffs you want tighter rotations because it defines roles and improves the chemistry so that players know when they will be playing and who they will be playing with.

I don't see any punishment going on or any sign that Rick has something personal against Saras.

It is obvious that the Saras fans weren't here for the Thomas years. I'd love to see the discussions IT's handling of the pg situation would have been.

Seed
03-20-2006, 02:23 PM
I just want to state that I think any notion of Sarunas refusing to play 2 is bogus. I don't remember if I read that here or in another thread, but either way I think that's completey false. I think Rick likes Fred better than Sarunas as the backup 2. And so do I.

Hicks, It was me that suggested this as a hunch (it was on this thread).
There are several facts that seem to correlate:
1. Two seconds in 4 games. This is just too drastic for a player that did not miss a single(!) game previously. Hell, even E.Gill played a little more in the last 4 games.
2. Sarunas can play better as a SG than he did. His 3 pts % dropped for no real reason when playing SG.
3. Sarunas says in an intreview he don't like playing SG, as he feels more comfortable with the ball.

If I was Rick, I'd let him know that he's expected to give his best at any position until the end of the season, and expect things to turn in the summer. Personally I would talk to the guy, but I can also think of (great) coaches that would bench him for several games.

Peck
03-20-2006, 03:03 PM
I just want to state that I think any notion of Sarunas refusing to play 2 is bogus. I don't remember if I read that here or in another thread, but either way I think that's completey false. I think Rick likes Fred better than Sarunas as the backup 2. And so do I.

I don't think anybody is saying that Sarunas is refusing to play the two. What some of us believe is that Rick thinks Sarunas is not giving his all at the two spot. Remember, we're not the only people who read the press.

It is quite possible that after so many interviews with Saras saying he did not enjoy playing the two spot & with a couple of less than stellar outings on the floor that Rick had just seen & heard enough for him.

BTW, I'm not saying that he is right. I know you think I have been a Saras basher but I'm really not. I was disgusted with some of his comments & a few other issues relating to some of his die hards. But I grew to like his play.

I just think this statement by Carlisle speaks volumes.

"I'm not going to look to play three guys just to play three guys. I'm going to look to try to have a rotation where guys can be comfortable. But you have to be accountable and play your minutes hard. Otherwise there are good players behind you; that's the fact."

That is why I feel as though punishment is not as far off base as you do.

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 03:04 PM
Going into the playoffs you want tighter rotations because it defines roles and improves the chemistry so that players know when they will be playing and who they will be playing with.

I don't see any punishment going on or any sign that Rick has something personal against Saras.

It is obvious that the Saras fans weren't here for the Thomas years. I'd love to see the discussions IT's handling of the pg situation would have been.

I just don't get it. Sorry.

There is some point in your words: defines roles, improves chemistry etc.

But does this mean that you will not play 3d PG even though the other 2 are playing particularly bad? Even not for 5 minutes? Especially when on the given day he can be much better than them? Why is this sticking to the "rules"? Is Rick such a hard-minded coach? Ohhhhh he is...

But do you think so too?

Hicks
03-20-2006, 03:15 PM
I want to ask once again since I didn't get an answer:

Why 2 PG rotation is better than 3 PG rotation?
If someone plays bad in any particular game why not to give a chance to somebody else?

Consistency and chemistry. You have your starters, and you have your second unit. Anyone behind the second unit plays garbage minutes at best. The way rotations work in the NBA is you cycle back and forth between both sets of players (though not all at once). Each set develops a feel for the others in their unit, and over time that produces better results as the familiarity increases.

Indiana doesn't get to see that because of all the turmoil and injuries, but that's how it usually works. Dividing the PG minutes up 3 ways doesn't give Tinsley enough time on the floor (he's the best PG we have), and neither AJ nor Sarunas would have enough minutes to get into any kind of grove. Meanwhile, the other bench players would never develop a lot of chemistry because they would always be having to re-adjust between Sarunas and Johnson, two PGs with very different styles.

Hicks
03-20-2006, 03:17 PM
I was thinking about saving this for a summer discussion, but I'm going to go ahead and mention it now.

I think Sarunas is like Austin Croshere. What the hell do I mean? His role, and his minutes, determine if he sucks or rules. Think about it. Remember for years, the discussion and observations on Croshere were that if you start him, give him his minutes, and he knows he's going to get them, he produces. Bench him, give him multiple roles to constantly switch to, and don't promise him many or any minutes, and he usually sucks.

I think Sarunas is exactly the same way. I think he needs what Croshere needs to succeed.

Seed
03-20-2006, 03:20 PM
You know that feeling when someone explains what you think better than you do? Its a mixture of joy & shame.

I guess what I wanted to say is thanks, Peck.;)

DeS
03-20-2006, 03:49 PM
Well, that's a mess starting from the begining. I guess the initial plan was Tins being main PG and Sarunas the backup. So, Rick developed Saras with second squad and it turned out to be very successful: 2nd unit usually outplayed the oponents second unit (if i correctly remember it was about 20:4 bench winning rate). The injuries messed up everything: AJ became starter and Saras was left with the 2nd unit (maybe in order to develop further the chemistry with 2nd squad to play even better after Tins will return). Now AJ playing solid as a starter left Tins as a 2nd stringer moving Saras out of the 2nd squad.
It looks OK (to start the 2 supposedly best PGs), but the main problem imho is that Tins has only a little chemistry with the second unit. He can create for them, but he isn't running offense that efficiently as he was running offense with the 1 unit. Now 2nd unit looks like a Titan (having future stars and best PG) without his head - he can smash accidently oponents here and there, but he lacks the stability. Sarunas had 60 games to develop the chemistry with the 2nd unit and Tins has now less than 20. This is the major waste imo. I doubt Tins will achieve that chemistry before playofs and the outcome will depend on players separate performances.

I don't know if it is good to have 3 PG rotation or it is better to stick only with 2 (no matter how they are plaing), I just want to say, that this year is just a big waste (especially if You (or management) want Saras to stay next season).

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 03:50 PM
I was thinking about saving this for a summer discussion, but I'm going to go ahead and mention it now.

I think Sarunas is like Austin Croshere. What the hell do I mean? His role, and his minutes, determine if he sucks or rules. Think about it. Remember for years, the discussion and observations on Croshere were that if you start him, give him his minutes, and he knows he's going to get them, he produces. Bench him, give him multiple roles to constantly switch to, and don't promise him many or any minutes, and he usually sucks.

I think Sarunas is exactly the same way. I think he needs what Croshere needs to succeed.

Thats exactly what I've been saying all the time.

He is unathletic slow PG with bad dribling and poor defence.

He is natural born leader that makes his teammates better, with killing instict and clutch play.

You know what determines what Saras of upper two options you are going to see?

Coach trust.

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 03:54 PM
Consistency and chemistry. You have your starters, and you have your second unit. Anyone behind the second unit plays garbage minutes at best. The way rotations work in the NBA is you cycle back and forth between both sets of players (though not all at once). Each set develops a feel for the others in their unit, and over time that produces better results as the familiarity increases.

Indiana doesn't get to see that because of all the turmoil and injuries, but that's how it usually works. Dividing the PG minutes up 3 ways doesn't give Tinsley enough time on the floor (he's the best PG we have), and neither AJ nor Sarunas would have enough minutes to get into any kind of grove. Meanwhile, the other bench players would never develop a lot of chemistry because they would always be having to re-adjust between Sarunas and Johnson, two PGs with very different styles.

Thanks for the explanation. I agree with your points.

However I do not believe that two squad "rules" are strict. Actually its more like a guidelines. Think about how many starting squads Rick had this season. Now he starts being consistent?

Dr. Goldfoot
03-20-2006, 03:55 PM
(especially if You (or management) want Saras to stay next season).

I think Runi is under contract so he has little choice but to stay, or quit basketball entirely. I suppose he could demand a trade, but his performance this year doesn't really put him in a position to do that.

Seed
03-20-2006, 04:04 PM
I was going to save this for summer too, but I think I've managed to sum it up in a sentence:

Sarunas has hit the Ricky wall..

:)

DeS
03-20-2006, 05:01 PM
BTW, I just thought for a minute, that Tins will not get back his position (he will not became the starter this year). Now that Rick develops Tins with 2nd unit, there is no way Rick will switch PG starters couple of games left before playoffs because of the chemistry issues.

Pacesetter
03-20-2006, 05:26 PM
Sarunas has hit the rookie wall. No big deal, he just needs to get up off the floor dust himself off, and get back after it. Maybe this is a way of getting him to dig deeper. It's not Coach Carlisle's fault that Sarunas continually gets beat on defense, and his shot has faded of late. No one to blame for Sarunas lacking except Sarunas, so pouting any further about his situation will do him absolutely no good at all!

I believe in his abilities as a player, and so do millions of others ... just keep on workin Sarunas! What's done is done, he just needs to let it roll off his shoulders and press on. There's little doubt when his name is announced the fans love him, so he should try to dig deeper and work as hard as he can and drain the tank every night. If he can do that he'll be back in the rotation. He's just GOT TO BE READY WHEN HIS NUMBER'S CALLED!

Go Sarunas!!!! :cool:

ChicagoJ
03-20-2006, 07:48 PM
All teams tighten their rotations in the playoffs. 8 man rotation is usually three guards, two forwards, a swingman, and two centers.

You want your starters to get as many minutes as humanly possible, because they are the best players and the most cohesive unit.

The bench exists for the sole purpose of letting those guys rest.

If you're going nine-deep, or playing your bench players for more than, say, 16-20 mpg, you're spending a lot of time with your bench against a playoff teams' starters.

That's a recipe for losing a playoff series. Something that the Indiana Pacers, who still try to play a nine-man rotation in the playoffs, do every year against a team with "less depth" but "better starters."

Its not Rick's fault he uses a nine-man rotation, DW always gives his coaches a team where the coach has to make difficult, instead of obvious, decisions about who to leave on the bench.

Lithfan
03-21-2006, 01:14 AM
All teams tighten their rotations in the playoffs. 8 man rotation is usually three guards, two forwards, a swingman, and two centers.

You want your starters to get as many minutes as humanly possible, because they are the best players and the most cohesive unit.

The bench exists for the sole purpose of letting those guys rest.

If you're going nine-deep, or playing your bench players for more than, say, 16-20 mpg, you're spending a lot of time with your bench against a playoff teams' starters.

That's a recipe for losing a playoff series. Something that the Indiana Pacers, who still try to play a nine-man rotation in the playoffs, do every year against a team with "less depth" but "better starters."

Its not Rick's fault he uses a nine-man rotation, DW always gives his coaches a team where the coach has to make difficult, instead of obvious, decisions about who to leave on the bench.

Thats another difference between Europe and NBA.
In many top European teams you'll see bench players playing as much as starters on the given day.
I think its because the game is about the team play in Europe while its about allstars in NBA. :(

Kstat
03-21-2006, 01:36 AM
Thats another difference between Europe and NBA.
In many top European teams you'll see bench players playing as much as starters on the given day.
I think its because the game is about the team play in Europe while its about allstars in NBA. :(

Yes, anything in the NBA that is different from europe is (A) American, (B) self-centered, and (C) wrong.

It couldn't possibly because continuity is more condusive to a winning enviornment, its because we're all about individuals and not team play.

We get your point.

Lithfan
03-21-2006, 02:04 AM
Yes, anything in the NBA that is different from europe is (A) American, (B) self-centered, and (C) wrong.

It couldn't possibly because continuity is more condusive to a winning enviornment, its because we're all about individuals and not team play.

We get your point.

Hey don't be so negative! Not every comparison of NBA Vs Europe supposed to tell that everything in NBA is wrong. I didnt mean anything bad, just stated a fact and a suggestion of differences origin.

Julius Sour
03-21-2006, 02:22 AM
Consistency and chemistry. You have your starters, and you have your second unit. Anyone behind the second unit plays garbage minutes at best. The way rotations work in the NBA is you cycle back and forth between both sets of players (though not all at once). Each set develops a feel for the others in their unit, and over time that produces better results as the familiarity increases.

Maybe some team dinner could improve that, or as You are more common with : "Team Bar B Q". You know... Guys come together, have a beer or two:laugh: Even 100 people symphonic orchestra's do this sort of
Consistency and chemistry. exercises:laugh:

In general, I think, that It is realy GOOD for the Indy Pacers, that Rick is managing to get Saras angry. This practice was also used by Pinni in Maccabi, Zmago in Olympia, even in LT national team he gets benched (not for a full game - that'd be STUPID).

Saras is a BEAST, that went a sleep cause of "...last three boring years in Europe..." . The other thing is how long Rick will be able to manage this situation balancing it around the "boiling point".

Another thing, I AM SURE THAT DW AND LB HAVE GIVEN THE GREEN LIGHT FOR THIS. Everybody knows 1st rule of the business: "defend your investments".

Anyway: in this situation - EVERYBODY WINS.... Next Season:cool:

Js

Kestas
03-21-2006, 03:35 AM
I think Runi is under contract so he has little choice but to stay, or quit basketball entirely. I suppose he could demand a trade, but his performance this year doesn't really put him in a position to do that.

that's straying OT somewhat, but does anybody know what's the buyout of Saras' contract (if it exists)? if, say, European club would want to take him this summer or in 2007, how much would they have to pay to the Pacers?

btw, why isn't he in position for a trade? because he would get less in a new team? I can't see it as a problem.

Hicks
03-21-2006, 09:12 AM
Thats another difference between Europe and NBA.
In many top European teams you'll see bench players playing as much as starters on the given day.
I think its because the game is about the team play in Europe while its about allstars in NBA. :(

No, not at all. In the NBA your top 6-8 players are usually a lot better than the other 4-6 players, and so in the playoffs you play your best guys during all of those minutes to maximize your chances of winning. You don't give the others a chance to lose it for you. Usually the difference in talent from your best 1-3 bench guys to the rest is significant.

Hicks
03-21-2006, 09:16 AM
Maybe some team dinner could improve that, or as You are more common with : "Team Bar B Q". You know... Guys come together, have a beer or two:laugh: Even 100 people symphonic orchestra's do this sort of exercises:laugh:



Do you just have no concept of on-court chemistry? This isn't about liking each other in general, it's about knowing what everyone else likes to do on the floor. When you're giving the rest of the guys three unique styles to deal with during the game, you never get into any kind of groove.

ChicagoJ
03-21-2006, 09:58 AM
Thats another difference between Europe and NBA.
In many top European teams you'll see bench players playing as much as starters on the given day.
I think its because the game is about the team play in Europe while its about allstars in NBA. :(

I'd like to see you coach against the Pistons or Spurs in The Finals.

Good luck playing your bench against either starting lineup from those teams.

The NBA regular season and playoffs are all about preparing to play (and win) in The Finals. You're not going to do that because you're seventh man is better than their seventh man - this ain't a cross country meet.

Whoa! Not only do the Spurs and Pistons have superior starting lineups, they are also excellent at team play. Not sure how that fits into your over-simplification of the world, though.

The silly idea behind depth is that by playing your bench more, your starters will be more rested at "crunch time."

And thats okay if you are content with watching your well-rested starters reduce the deficit from twenty points to ten points against their tired starters. I'd rather beat them, which means that your starters need to be conditioned and accustomed to playing major, major minutes.

Its a transition that the Pacers have never been great at (thus, numerous losses in the ECFs), however they do generally begin tightening their rotations at this time of year. But not as much as many of us think they should, in part because we still don't have the "combo guard" we need.

Hicks
03-21-2006, 10:02 AM
What is the fascination with the legendary "combo guard"? That used to be all Donnie would talk about a few years ago. Who are these guys? Name one that can't get burned defensively at at least the 1 or the 2, if not both?

ChicagoJ
03-21-2006, 10:12 AM
Fred Jones, but he can't handle the ball well enough at the other end of the court.

I don't remember Bobby Jackson having problems against either guard.

Brent Barry is a great combo guard but he's equally inept defensively against either PGs or SGs.

For the longest time, I thought Chauncey Billups was best suited to be a combo guard.

Think back to the "classic" combo guards - Joe Dumars, Ricky Pierce, Andrew Toney, Dennis Johnson, there are many others... What you want is that ellusive 6'4"/ 6'5" guy who can play effectively either with or without the ball, and defend either guard.

Hicks
03-21-2006, 10:18 AM
Maybe I just don't watch him enough, but I don't believe in Bobby Jackson guarding most SGs. Fred Jones, Ben Gordon-sized 2's maybe.

MagicRat
03-21-2006, 10:33 AM
BTW, I just thought for a minute, that Tins will not get back his position (he will not became the starter this year). Now that Rick develops Tins with 2nd unit, there is no way Rick will switch PG starters couple of games left before playoffs because of the chemistry issues.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jamaal's return to the starting lineup coincides with JO's return. Larry keeps talking about seeing what he's got, so I expect he's going to want to see JO, Peja and JT operate together extensively. (I'd move AJ to third string at that time, but I don't have much say in the situation).....

Kstat
03-21-2006, 11:11 AM
What is the fascination with the legendary "combo guard"? That used to be all Donnie would talk about a few years ago. Who are these guys? Name one that can't get burned defensively at at least the 1 or the 2, if not both?


Combo guards allow teams to play 3-guard rotations in the backcourt. It allows coaches to play only 3 guards while not overplayign anybody.

Shade
03-21-2006, 11:52 AM
Combo guards allow teams to play 3-guard rotations in the backcourt. It allows coaches to play only 3 guards while not overplayign anybody.

The downside, though, is that you effectively lose two players in the rotation if your combo guard goes down.

Kstat
03-21-2006, 12:00 PM
The downside, though, is that you effectively lose two players in the rotation if your combo guard goes down.

Can't coach anticipating injuries. It's a defeatist attitude.

You can always plug in 2 more backup guards to take the place of the 1 that was hurt, anyway.

Shade
03-21-2006, 12:06 PM
Can't coach anticipating injuries. It's a defeatist attitude.

You can always plug in 2 more backup guards to take the place of the 1 that was hurt, anyway.

With the Pacers, it's more an unfortunate and unavoidable reality of the job. =/

Kstat
03-21-2006, 12:08 PM
With the Pacers, it's more an unfortunate and unavoidable reality of having Tinsley on the team and playing JO at center.

There, fixed.

beast23
03-21-2006, 12:13 PM
I don't think anybody is saying that Sarunas is refusing to play the two. What some of us believe is that Rick thinks Sarunas is not giving his all at the two spot. Remember, we're not the only people who read the press.

It is quite possible that after so many interviews with Saras saying he did not enjoy playing the two spot & with a couple of less than stellar outings on the floor that Rick had just seen & heard enough for him.

BTW, I'm not saying that he is right. I know you think I have been a Saras basher but I'm really not. I was disgusted with some of his comments & a few other issues relating to some of his die hards. But I grew to like his play.

I just think this statement by Carlisle speaks volumes.

"I'm not going to look to play three guys just to play three guys. I'm going to look to try to have a rotation where guys can be comfortable. But you have to be accountable and play your minutes hard. Otherwise there are good players behind you; that's the fact."

That is why I feel as though punishment is not as far off base as you do.I agree very much with this assessment.

Elsewhere in the thread you mentioned that Carlisle and Bird may be on different pages. You questioned why we signed Saras in the first place.

I don't agree with that. You have to recall that last season, one of our major problems was that teams could collapse on Jermaine in the paint. Double and even triple teams were common place because we just didn't have enough consistency with our perimeter shots.

During the summer, Bird proclaimed his love for Saras. But what were the primary words out of Bird's mouth? That Saras was a great shooter and that his presence would make it more difficult for teams to collapse on Jermaine. He also said that Saras would have to improve his defense.

In other words, Bird acknowledged that Saras played PG in Europe, but with his emphasis on Saras' shooting abilities, I believe that Bird viewed Saras as a combo guard from the get go.

Carlisle started out playing Saras at PG, because that was his comfort zone. But eventually, as the needs of the team changed, Saras role also changed. At this time, we need him to be a combo guard and more of a shooter.

I really don't think Bird and Carlisle have different agendas regarding Saras. Each wants him used in whatever role will help the team win. At this point, with players returning to the bench following injuries, coupled with a tightening of the rotation, it simply leaves Saras as the odd man out. Good enough to remain among the top 12 and have spot on the bench, but just not good enough (or perhaps consistent enough) to warrant any minutes on the court.

Shade
03-21-2006, 12:16 PM
There, fixed.

You forgot Bender's knees, Scot's back, Jeff's hip, Fred's finger, and Cro's head. At least JO and Tins keep it fresh with new and intriguing injuries.

Oh, yeah, and until recently, Ron's "personality." Hey, a mental injury is still an injury. :shrug:

If only we could interchange healthy body parts... :chin:

CableKC
03-21-2006, 12:27 PM
If only we could interchange healthy body parts... :chin:
Imagine if we took the upper body and head of Artest, combined it with the mind of Tinsley, the shooting ability of SJax, the mouth of Harrison, the shoulder of JONeal, the heart/work ethic of Croshere and the feet of Pollard......we would have a super player that can defend but has a screw loose, can go one-on-one streetball with opposing PGs at the wrong times, that is a streaky scorer, complains and have long conversations with Refs while the rest of the game is going on, that has a good lowpost game that can get injured from year to year, that is a good workhorse with injured feet.

We would be unbeatable.....:laugh:

ChicagoJ
03-21-2006, 12:54 PM
I agree very much with this assessment.

Elsewhere in the thread you mentioned that Carlisle and Bird may be on different pages. You questioned why we signed Saras in the first place.

I don't agree with that. You have to recall that last season, one of our major problems was that teams could collapse on Jermaine in the paint. Double and even triple teams were common place because we just didn't have enough consistency with our perimeter shots.

During the summer, Bird proclaimed his love for Saras. But what were the primary words out of Bird's mouth? That Saras was a great shooter and that his presence would make it more difficult for teams to collapse on Jermaine. He also said that Saras would have to improve his defense.

In other words, Bird acknowledged that Saras played PG in Europe, but with his emphasis on Saras' shooting abilities, I believe that Bird viewed Saras as a combo guard from the get go.

Carlisle started out playing Saras at PG, because that was his comfort zone. But eventually, as the needs of the team changed, Saras role also changed. At this time, we need him to be a combo guard and more of a shooter.

I really don't think Bird and Carlisle have different agendas regarding Saras. Each wants him used in whatever role will help the team win. At this point, with players returning to the bench following injuries, coupled with a tightening of the rotation, it simply leaves Saras as the odd man out. Good enough to remain among the top 12 and have spot on the bench, but just not good enough (or perhaps consistent enough) to warrant any minutes on the court.


This makes more sense to me than the "Bird and Carlisle aren't on the same page argument."

:twocents:

Julius Sour
03-21-2006, 01:52 PM
In other words, Bird acknowledged that Saras played PG in Europe, but with his emphasis on Saras' shooting abilities, I believe that Bird viewed Saras as a combo guard from the get go

Then LB has gotten confused. That's (http://www.interbasket.net/players/macijauskas.htm) the (http://www.euroleague.net/noticia.jsp?temporada=E04&jornada=21&id=725) Man (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/arvydas_macijauskas/) Pacers (http://www.nba.com/hornets/)needed. The last link is a Joke, sorry. it's like Baltic humor:rolleyes:

Js

bulletproof
03-21-2006, 02:12 PM
"I'm not going to look to play three guys just to play three guys. I'm going to look to try to have a rotation where guys can be comfortable. But you have to be accountable and play your minutes hard. Otherwise there are good players behind you; that's the fact."

That is why I feel as though punishment is not as far off base as you do.

I'm not saying it's the case here, but Rick isn't above "punishing" players. Back when Rick benched Tinsley, it perplexed Donnie and Larry. They couldn't figure out what was going on there; thought it might be something personal, but weren't exactly sure. So who knows really?

Arcadian
03-21-2006, 02:12 PM
I agree that Larry has been looking for a combo guard and that is what he had in mind with Saras. Remember last year he wanted Ben Gordon in the draft.

ChicagoJ
03-21-2006, 02:16 PM
It *is* an interesting follow-up question to ask:

Does Rick want a combo guard? Would he even play someone that way?

I'm drawing a blank - who were the backup guards in Detroit when Rick was there?

Arcadian
03-21-2006, 02:21 PM
I'm not sure Rick feels a strong need for a pg.

Contray to most's feeling on here I think Rick is fairly flexible to going with the roster he has. I don't see him being a coach who demands a certain roster make up.

Fool
03-21-2006, 02:26 PM
It *is* an interesting follow-up question to ask:

Does Rick want a combo guard? Would he even play someone that way?

I'm drawing a blank - who were the backup guards in Detroit when Rick was there?
Chucky Atkins and Jon Barry. (Chucky was a starter one of the years)

Kegboy
03-21-2006, 02:27 PM
It *is* an interesting follow-up question to ask:

Does Rick want a combo guard? Would he even play someone that way?

I'm drawing a blank - who were the backup guards in Detroit when Rick was there?

Damon Jones, Jon Barry and Dana Barros his first year, and Chucky Atkins, Jon Barry and Hubert Davis his second, with Barros and Davis not getting much play.

[edit] Check that, Barros started 20 games. http://www.nba.com/pistons/stats/2001/index.html

Kstat
03-21-2006, 02:30 PM
Barros was playing awesome as the backup PG when we got off to a great start, then he got hurt and we sign damon jones to replace him. Barry was the backup SG the whole year.

In yeah year two, it was Chucky and Barry.

RWB
03-21-2006, 02:40 PM
In yeah year two, it was Chucky and Barry.

You mean the guy that did Johnny B. Goode?

ChicagoJ
03-21-2006, 02:48 PM
I'm not sure Rick feels a strong need for a pg.

Contray to most's feeling on here I think Rick is fairly flexible to going with the roster he has. I don't see him being a coach who demands a certain roster make up.

Good point.

Rick's working with the hand he's been dealt.

Of our guards, Tinsley and Gill are PG only (unless you count Gill's time at SF), SJax is a swing "2"-"3".

AJ, Fred and Saras "could" be combo guards - but probably in that order.

Fred has earned some minutes/ spot in the rotation, but hasn't proven to be capable of spending any time at PG. So I don't like the outcome (playing four guards) but its hard to argue that I'd do something different than what Rick has done.

Peck
03-21-2006, 02:48 PM
I guess I'm not making myself very clear on what I thought Bird thought:confused:

I think that Bird did believe that Saraunus could be the combo guard. I believe 100% that he was brought here to be Reggie's replacement.

If you go back & look at all of the talk of Saras by Bird when he was signed it was all about his outside shooting & a little about his leadership.

I think that Bird made the error in not talking with Saras & making sure that he would be ok with not being a point guard.

ChicagoJ
03-21-2006, 02:51 PM
As evidenced by our Pistons' brethren,

Rick's never really been dealt a "combo guard" he felt comfortable using in that way.

So we don't really have any evidence of what he'd do if he had one.

ChicagoJ
03-21-2006, 02:53 PM
Well, Peck, its possible that Bird and Carlisle aren't on the same page because Bird thinks Saras is a combo guard and Rick doesn't.

But Rick has used him at both G positions this season so I don't think that is true.

Nevermind. This post isn't going anywhere.

Arcadian
03-21-2006, 03:02 PM
There's also the possiblity that Bird thought Saras would be a bigger upgrade over AJ than he what he has shown. I mean if Saras clearly out played AJ this thread wouldn't exist.

Either way, I think unless there is a trade and Saras responds signing him was a bad fit for both parties. Who knows? There's always next year.

Kegboy
03-21-2006, 03:18 PM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/jasikevicius_050811.html

Jasikevicius, Pacers
a Winning Combo

By Conrad Brunner | Aug. 11, 2005

A rookie. A piece of the puzzle. Those were the modest terms Sarunas Jasikevicius used to describe one of the proudest players in European basketball.

His new employer was a little more aggressive in his characterization.

"Heís a winner," said Larry Bird, "and he wants to play for a winner."

The unquestioned leader of teams that won the last three Euroleague championships, Jasikevicius signed a reported three-year, $12 million contract with the Pacers Thursday. Though Jasikevicius (pronounced yah-sa-KEV-ə-chiss) isn't a household name in the United States, basketball connoisseurs are well aware his signing represents one of the most significant moves by any NBA team this offseason.

"He is the golden boy," said Dani Inbar, an Israeli television journalist who is filming Jasikevicius' life story. "Whenever you need him, he'll be there.

"To put it in perspective, Manu Ginobili (of the Spurs) was a good player, above average, in Europe and look at what he's done in the NBA. Saras (Jasikevicius' nickname) was a much bigger star in Europe than Ginobili."

He scored 28 points to lead Lithuania past a U.S. team laden with NBA stars in the 2004 Olympics; this after scoring 27 and missing a buzzer-beater that would've stunned the U.S. in 2000. Bird began scouting Jasikevicius almost immediately after taking over as team President in 2003.

"Iíve been chasing this young man around for a couple of years and knowing that he signed a multi-year deal makes me feel at ease now," Bird said. "I think Sarunas is going to have a major role in what we are trying to accomplish as a team and I think he is a great fit for our organization and for our team.

"A lot of you have probably never seen him play much but believe me, he is going to help us. He is a good young man, heís a worker, heís a competitor and heís won a lot of championships."

A muscular 6-4 guard, Jasikevicius attracted plenty of attention from NBA teams but his decision boiled down to a choice between the Pacers and Cavaliers. The lure of immediate contention in Indiana outweighed the prospect of playing with best friend Zydrunas Ilgauskas in Cleveland. Having Bird on the recruiting trail didn't hurt.

"Obviously, he has an incredible amount of respect everywhere, all over the world and in Europe," said Jasikevicius. "He gets introduced every game to a standing ovation when he comes over. So we know he is there, for sure. But for me it was very nice to have a guy like this to come and talk to me a couple of times. It was great, obviously I was a big fan.

"It was very nice meeting him but at the same time I had to make a decision based on the overall situation and I felt like the situation here is really great."

Primarily a point guard, Jasikevicius enters a position already stocked by incumbent starter Jamaal Tinsley, veteran backup Anthony Johnson and journeyman Eddie Gill. How the rotation will sort itself out remains to be seen but there's little question Jasikevicius is expected to carve a prominent role.

"I had a lot of conversations with Sarunas during the month of July about our situation and one thing he never asked for was any kind of guarantee about playing time," said Coach Rick Carlisle. "I think in his mind, and I canít speak for him, but he felt heís the kind of guy thatís going to be good enough to play in this league. Heís looking for a situation I believe where there is an opportunity to win at a high level."

Though not a dominant scorer, Jasikevicius is known as a clutch player who wants the ball in his hands when a game is on the line. That role opened up with Reggie Miller's retirement.

"He has a unique ability to get the ball to people thatís open," said Bird. "He can hit open shots. Heís a competitor. Him and Ronnie Artest and Jack (Stephen Jackson) are some of the other guys I feel are great competitors so heíll fit right in. Heís not afraid to tell guys where they are supposed to be. He just adds so much to our team. "

Jasikevicius is a legend throughout Europe because of his history of leading teams to titles. Lithuania won the 2003 European Championship (he was named MVP) and Olympic bronze in 2000. With F.C. Barcelona, he won two Spanish national titles and the Euroleague championship in 2003. He joined Maccabi Tel Aviv and on two Israeli national championships as well as back-to-back Euroleague crowns, earning MVP of the Final Four in May.

"I think I just am prepared to be a piece of the puzzle," he said. "On a daily basis, I have to earn the respect of my teammates and the respect of my coaches and everybody in the organization. So it is really difficult in a different situation than if I had changed teams in Europe where people would know me and maybe it would be easier at the beginning.

"Here, Iím just another guy from Europe and Iím OK with that because this has been a dream for me to play in the NBA for many years now and hopefully Iím just looking forward to being part of a winning team."

DeS
03-21-2006, 03:18 PM
I think that Bird did believe that Saraunus could be the combo guard. I believe 100% that he was brought here to be Reggie's replacement.

If you go back & look at all of the talk of Saras by Bird when he was signed it was all about his outside shooting & a little about his leadership.

I'm not that sure about it:
1) Officialy Saras was brought as a backup PG.
2) Semi-officialy Saras was brought as an insurance to Tins injuries.
3) Bird should have know that Saras isn't a top shooter (You can see it simply looking at EL stats) and that his best asset isn't shooting.

Maybe Bird thought that Saras could play a little more succesful and more wilingly at SG, but I doubt he thought Saras could be Reggie replacement.

SwissExpress
03-21-2006, 03:45 PM
Damn! I went to London for several days, no TV, radio, or Internet, and no other news on basketball. And once I come back, I find out - inter alia - that Saras is being played 2 seconds per 4 games.

That makes 2 last year's All-Euroleague 1st team players (with Macijauskas of Hornets) who are DNPs this year in the NBA. It's depressing.

SwissExpress
03-21-2006, 03:53 PM
You know, for Euroleague fans, it's already quite depressing that NBA takes some of the best and most interesting players out from the league.
But when it takes it's best playmaker and does not use it - that's wicked...

Julius Sour
03-21-2006, 04:08 PM
;) http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/sarunas_jasikevicius/ ;)

Js

Lithfan
03-21-2006, 05:13 PM
You know, for Euroleague fans, it's already quite depressing that NBA takes some of the best and most interesting players out from the league.
But when it takes it's best playmaker and does not use it - that's wicked...

I know how you feel.

Anthem
03-21-2006, 05:31 PM
You forgot Bender's knees, Scot's back, Jeff's hip, Fred's finger, and Cro's head. At least JO and Tins keep it fresh with new and intriguing injuries.

If only we could interchange healthy body parts... :chin:
I'm tellin ya, man, we need to find a hadriatic cube...

Anthem
03-21-2006, 05:31 PM
Its not Rick's fault he uses a nine-man rotation, DW always gives his coaches a team where the coach has to make difficult, instead of obvious, decisions about who to leave on the bench.
Absolutely right.

Kestas
03-22-2006, 07:26 AM
Do you just have no concept of on-court chemistry? This isn't about liking each other in general, it's about knowing what everyone else likes to do on the floor. When you're giving the rest of the guys three unique styles to deal with during the game, you never get into any kind of groove.

thats right! but Lithfan was right also. Saras has told numerous times that in the Pacers players do not communicate after the game or after the practices. we, Europeans, find it strange. Saras was used to be friends with his teammates on and off the court. if you believe this has no influence on the team chemistry on the court, I think you are somewhat mislead. although that's just my subjective impression..

Hicks
03-22-2006, 10:34 AM
No I agree with that. Unfortunately in the NBA having a team full of friends can be rare. As well as chatting away from games/practice about team on-court issues.

Pacesetter
03-22-2006, 04:51 PM
thats right! but Lithfan was right also. Saras has told numerous times that in the Pacers players do not communicate after the game or after the practices. we, Europeans, find it strange. Saras was used to be friends with his teammates on and off the court. if you believe this has no influence on the team chemistry on the court, I think you are somewhat mislead. although that's just my subjective impression..

I feel bad for Sarunas. Pacers basketball is supposed to be about playing together basketball and overcoming individual weaknesses and pulling together as a team. I just hope he keeps his head up and works as hard as he can to avoid getting beaten off the dribble! All he needs to do is show his teammates that he's going to give it everything he's got for 48 minutes whether he's a starter or comes off the bench. What he did in Europe was fantastic, but that was yesterday, the Pacers only care about what he's got for them today - unfair, but that's life!

Hero to zero, and zero to hero - again and again and again!

Rytas_Jega
03-22-2006, 05:20 PM
Maurice Baker, the best CBA player this season (19ppg, 7.5rppg, 8.5rpg), had 3 negative efficiency performaces for Vilnius Lietuvos Rytas this Euroleague season (averages 0.00 efficiency rating:D) in 8 games. Kenny Anderson had 3 (averages 0.57 efficiency rating:D) for Zalgiris in 7 games. Tree hours ago Rytas' coach was openly asked at official after-game press conference about Maurice's abilities to play at Euroleague level. Vilnius' coach refused to comment it saying the season is not over and Baker is still our player.

However, there are many fans of both teams who defend those two Americans on the internet forums, despite they use playing time young Lithuanian players could use much much better.

They defend because those are Zalgiris and Rytas players, they defend their teams.

Kenny is one of Zalgiris' top3 paid players, Maurice was bought to give some rest for the main PG Stelmahers, now it's obvious Baker's level is somewhere at the NKL (second strongest Lthuanian basketball league).

Don't be so angry, there are many worse managers in the World who buy players that are far from 8.0ppg 3.1 apg at the levels they are supposed to be able to play.

BlueNGold
03-22-2006, 06:23 PM
thats right! but Lithfan was right also. Saras has told numerous times that in the Pacers players do not communicate after the game or after the practices. we, Europeans, find it strange. Saras was used to be friends with his teammates on and off the court. if you believe this has no influence on the team chemistry on the court, I think you are somewhat mislead. although that's just my subjective impression..

This is all very interesting. It is a shame the NBA is not more like the Euro league (or NCAA) in this regard. I don't think there ever was an "innocent time" for the NBA...at least in recent memory. The problem is, the NBA is more about entertainment than competition for the bulk of the season. It is more about quickness/athleticism than team play. It is more about endorsements than togetherness.

sarikas
03-23-2006, 09:34 PM
Everybody who follows Pacers season sees that saras will never succseed in Rick's sistem, so it is 99% that Saras is gone after season ( i don't beleiveive that Rick will be gone ) because it is too expencive to keep 3rd string PG that makes 3mill a year and saras is offence oriented player with poor defence when Rick is defence-first coach. Who would you like to substitute him and what team would be best fit for saras?

Kstat
03-23-2006, 09:47 PM
This is all very interesting. It is a shame the NBA is not more like the Euro league (or NCAA) in this regard. I don't think there ever was an "innocent time" for the NBA...at least in recent memory. The problem is, the NBA is more about entertainment than competition for the bulk of the season. It is more about quickness/athleticism than team play. It is more about endorsements than togetherness.


Not always the case in the NBA.

The Pistons spend a ton of time at bowling outings as a team. Sheed organizes them every week. I can think of a few other teams that do a lot of team functions.

Hicks
03-23-2006, 10:15 PM
The Pistons are the exception not the rule, though. I mean sure every team has some buddies on it, but it's rare to find a team where all 5 starters get along so well.

sarikas
03-23-2006, 10:18 PM
2006 April 4th United Center in Chicago. About 2-3000 lithuanian basketball fans from around 1mil comunity in IL will come to support Songaila and Jasikevicius playing in opposite teams that evening. All fans are gonna come in 3 different color tshiorts and stand in order to show massive Lithuanian flag ( yellow, green and red colors ). From todays point looks like none of liths will be on the court. Wow, that is gonna be sad evening for all lith fans if rick is gonna keal Saras on bench. 2000 drunk lithuanians can be unpredicted. I'll be among them-so I'll report after game what was happening :)

Pacesetter
03-23-2006, 10:26 PM
Everybody who follows Pacers season sees that saras will never succseed in Rick's sistem, so it is 99% that Saras is gone after season ( i don't beleiveive that Rick will be gone ) because it is too expencive to keep 3rd string PG that makes 3mill a year and saras is offence oriented player with poor defence when Rick is defence-first coach. Who would you like to substitute him and what team would be best fit for saras?

I think he'll be fine with the Pacers. He's got to "cowboy up" and become an NBA point guard! He can switch teams but he can't run from his weaknesses on defense. He's got to face the music and dig deep. The fans here in Indiana love Sarunas, and they will continue to support him if he gives his best effort - that's all they ask of any player!!!!

sarikas
03-23-2006, 10:35 PM
I think he'll be fine with the Pacers. He's got to "cowboy up" and become an NBA point guard! He can switch teams but he can't run from his weaknesses on defense. He's got to face the music and dig deep. The fans here in Indiana love Sarunas, and they will continue to support him if he gives his best effort - that's all they ask of any player!!!!

Saras is offence-first PG with a lot of improvisations and Rick is strickt deffence-first coach who like to see every play under his control. saras and Rick will never succeed in same team, impossible. Trade him to Utah, Cleaveland, anywhere-you can get something for him. It is clear now-Larry Bird made mistake bringing Saras to IND-no doubts abot that.

Evan_The_Dude
03-23-2006, 10:40 PM
Let me point out these facts right here....

Saras is a good player

Saras is a ROOKIE

Saras has NOT outplayed AJ and Tinsley

Saras WAS GIVEN THE CHANCE to outplay AJ, and would be the starter right now if he had, but he didn't.

Saras was brought here to fill the void of a SHOOTER with the departure of Reggie Miller. He wasn't brought here to be the starting point guard right away. If he was, we would have traded Tinsley in the offseason (BYC or not).

Some of the Lith fans expected Saras to start right away. But Saras didn't expect Saras to start right away.

Rick Carlisle doesn't give a rats *** if lithuanian basketball fans are going to attend the game against the Bulls. We're in a playoff race, and Saras has NOT played well enough to be part of the regular rotation... He has had virtually the whole season to do so.

Saras is a rookie, if he's as good as he's hyped up to be, and if he's a REAL champion, he'll work on his game [in the offseason] and be sure he can play any minutes he's given at any position.... like everybody else on this team.

Some of his fans need to lighten up. I don't think anybody is doubting his ability here - not even Carlisle - but you have to understand that we're in a playoff race right now. It's that time of year where coaches look at their teams most effective players on the court. Unfortunately for Saras, he has two guys ahead of him that know exactly what Carlisle wants and when he wants it because they have more experience running his offense.

I'd bet money that Saras will be very much involved in things next season, as long as he prepares himself to do so. I think everybody here want's to see the player that was so hyped upon his arrival do what he does best - help us become a big winner.

BTW, I'm not writing him off for the playoffs...

Knucklehead Warrior
03-24-2006, 03:47 AM
Let me point out these facts right here....

Saras is a good player

Saras is a ROOKIE

Saras has NOT outplayed AJ and Tinsley

Saras WAS GIVEN THE CHANCE to outplay AJ, and would be the starter right now if he had, but he didn't.

Saras was brought here to fill the void of a SHOOTER with the departure of Reggie Miller. He wasn't brought here to be the starting point guard right away. If he was, we would have traded Tinsley in the offseason (BYC or not).

Some of the Lith fans expected Saras to start right away. But Saras didn't expect Saras to start right away.

Rick Carlisle doesn't give a rats *** if lithuanian basketball fans are going to attend the game against the Bulls. We're in a playoff race, and Saras has NOT played well enough to be part of the regular rotation... He has had virtually the whole season to do so.

Saras is a rookie, if he's as good as he's hyped up to be, and if he's a REAL champion, he'll work on his game [in the offseason] and be sure he can play any minutes he's given at any position.... like everybody else on this team.

Some of his fans need to lighten up. I don't think anybody is doubting his ability here - not even Carlisle - but you have to understand that we're in a playoff race right now. It's that time of year where coaches look at their teams most effective players on the court. Unfortunately for Saras, he has two guys ahead of him that know exactly what Carlisle wants and when he wants it because they have more experience running his offense.

I'd bet money that Saras will be very much involved in things next season, as long as he prepares himself to do so. I think everybody here want's to see the player that was so hyped upon his arrival do what he does best - help us become a big winner.

BTW, I'm not writing him off for the playoffs...

Nice summary!
I "eagerly" await pages 9 through infinity.

Kestas
03-24-2006, 04:52 AM
Everybody who follows Pacers season sees that saras will never succseed in Rick's sistem, so it is 99% that Saras is gone after season ( i don't beleiveive that Rick will be gone ) because it is too expencive to keep 3rd string PG that makes 3mill a year

that's 4 mln.. and I'm starting to believe your scenario is becoming a considerable possibility. other teams want him too.
but, in all honesty, I would like Saras to give it a try next season, but if doesn't improve drastically.. I would like him to leave NBA. screw them.
yeah, he got more minutes than expected in the begining, yeah, he can become a starter if he works hard.. but to be just another good NBA player like some 40 or 50 other guys and knowing that he's performing at some 60 or 70 percent at most (and will never perform at 100 because of NBA style) is not enough. so far Saras played at 50 percent imho. and I'm sick from reading about how bad he is on deffense, when all the coach knows is the most primitive form of deffense (personal).

Justinas
03-24-2006, 05:21 AM
Maurice Baker, the best CBA player this season (19ppg, 7.5rppg, 8.5rpg), had 3 negative efficiency performaces for Vilnius Lietuvos Rytas this Euroleague season (averages 0.00 efficiency rating:D) in 8 games. Kenny Anderson had 3 (averages 0.57 efficiency rating:D) for Zalgiris in 7 games. Tree hours ago Rytas' coach was openly asked at official after-game press conference about Maurice's abilities to play at Euroleague level. Vilnius' coach refused to comment it saying the season is not over and Baker is still our player.

However, there are many fans of both teams who defend those two Americans on the internet forums...


And what about one of the most popular Zalgiris fans joke of this season?

Q: Who could save Zalgiris season?
A: Ku-Klux-Klan.

Some Zalgiris fans defend Tanoka, "NBA all-star Kenny" or Reggie Freeman and some do not.

I believe not all American pacersdigest.com commentators hate Saras.

Kstat
03-24-2006, 05:54 AM
And what about one of the most popular Zalgiris fans joke of this season?

Q: Who could save Zalgiris season?
A: Ku-Klux-Klan.

SOmehow, I don't find that very funny.

SoupIsGood
03-24-2006, 05:56 AM
Yeah, nothing like a good and wholesome KKK joke to start off the day..... :rolleyes:

Justinas
03-24-2006, 06:00 AM
For me, it isn't funny, too.

But for some people it is.

It was an answer to Rytas_Jega comment.

Kestas
03-24-2006, 07:29 AM
SOmehow, I don't find that very funny.

me too, if that changes anything. and i never heard this thing before.

RWB
03-24-2006, 07:35 AM
And what about one of the most popular Zalgiris fans joke of this season?

Q: Who could save Zalgiris season?
A: Ku-Klux-Klan.

Some Zalgiris fans defend Tanoka, "NBA all-star Kenny" or Reggie Freeman and some do not.

I believe not all American pacersdigest.com commentators hate Saras.


:-o :-o :-o

Whoa, what's next some good ole Holocaust jokes? Scary stuff.

ssmall
03-24-2006, 07:44 AM
Some people really should not post.
Btw that your "favourite joke" i hear the first time. So i doubt its that popular and prolly just made up by you or some of your not very bright friends.

Justinas
03-24-2006, 08:00 AM
Some people really should not post.
Btw that your "favourite joke" i hear the first time. So i doubt its that popular and prolly just made up by you or some of your not very bright friends.

Lithuanian Internet basketball forums. Spend more time here and then say "just made up by you or some of your not very bright friends".

It's not so hard in our Lithuanian context. We have no racism problems at all here in Lithuania. We have only a few black people (some basketball, football players, African refugees).

Chauncey
03-24-2006, 09:56 AM
For the Pacers, I hope that Sarass becomes Saras.

For the forum, I hope he goes back to Europe.

Saras, I like.

Saras' fans, I loathe.

brichard
03-24-2006, 10:06 AM
Since this is the official Saras Thread...

Does anybody else chuckle when they go to Pacers.com and see the picture of Saras under merchandise? I mean what other team has the picture of a guy who logs so few minutes on the court. It just seems so odd to me.

Raskolnikov
03-24-2006, 11:13 AM
Saras' fans, I loathe.
Please elaborate on that statement.

EDIT: I thought it was rather rude; that's why I ask.

Chauncey
03-24-2006, 12:39 PM
Please elaborate on that statement.

EDIT: I thought it was rather rude; that's why I ask.

Because 95% of them are just fanboys.

Mourning
03-24-2006, 01:27 PM
Nice summary!
I "eagerly" await pages 9 through infinity.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Mourning
03-24-2006, 01:30 PM
Because 95% of them are just fanboys.

Ahh.... that makes it perfectly normal to insult them, offcourse :rolleyes:

beast23
03-24-2006, 03:18 PM
that's 4 mln.. and I'm starting to believe your scenario is becoming a considerable possibility. other teams want him too.
but, in all honesty, I would like Saras to give it a try next season, but if doesn't improve drastically.. I would like him to leave NBA. screw them.
yeah, he got more minutes than expected in the begining, yeah, he can become a starter if he works hard.. but to be just another good NBA player like some 40 or 50 other guys and knowing that he's performing at some 60 or 70 percent at most (and will never perform at 100 because of NBA style) is not enough. so far Saras played at 50 percent imho. and I'm sick from reading about how bad he is on deffense, when all the coach knows is the most primitive form of deffense (personal).This is the type of thread that gets long-time Pacer fans a little furstrated and angered. To a certain degree, it shows very little knowledge of the NBA and how it conducts its business.

First of all, Saras cannot just "leave the NBA". At least not if he expects to continue playing professional basketball. Not without somehow arranging a buy-out of his contract. The NBA respects the contracts of foreign teams, and I'm sure that the converse is also probably true.

Stating that all the coach knows is the most primitive form of defense is really a pretty ludicrous statement. You see, the last time someone on the forum provided statistics (yesterday 3/23), the Pacers ranked #2 in the entire NBA in points allowed per 100 possessions. That would imply to me that Carlisle and his staff have probably forgotten more about defense than you will ever know.

Your statement doesn't imply a great deal of knowledge regarding how defense is played in the NBA. Many foreign teams play some form of modified zone defense almost exclusively throughout the game. The zones that they play would violate NBA rules for allowable defensive schemes. Yet, because a straight zone defense would help hide Saras' glaring weaknesses on the defense, you express criticism of Carlisle for essentially not violating the rules.

Again, for the nth time, it is Saras weaknesses that are keeping him off the court, not his strengths. Saras has other improvements that he could make as well, but the glaring weakness that he has is that he struggles in playing man-to-man defense even against average opponents.

Kestas
03-24-2006, 03:24 PM
Saras, I like.

Saras' fans, I loathe.

:eyebrow2:
it's a good thing you only _like_ Saras, coz if you'd be a fan the inner conflict would be inevitable

Kestas
03-24-2006, 03:29 PM
This is the type of thread that gets long-time Pacer fans a little furstrated and angered. To a certain degree, it shows very little knowledge of the NBA and how it conducts its business.
....
Again, for the nth time, it is Saras weaknesses that are keeping him off the court, not his strengths. Saras has other improvements that he could make as well, but the glaring weakness that he has is that he struggles in playing man-to-man defense even against average opponents.

I pretty much agree with everything you wrote in this post (about me or Saras). but I also think that there are more equally "bad" deffenders in the league and in the Pacers, but no one is bringing that upfront every two minutes ;)

brichard
03-24-2006, 04:15 PM
I pretty much agree with everything you wrote in this post (about me or Saras). but I also think that there are more equally "bad" deffenders in the league and in the Pacers, but no one is bringing that upfront every two minutes ;)

You have only been around a short time, but I assure you other folks have gotten equal time. Mark Jackson started for the Pacers, was a decent shooter, and is one of the top assist men in the NBA for all time. Yet he was constantly criticized for his lack of defense.

Evan_The_Dude
03-24-2006, 04:17 PM
I pretty much agree with everything you wrote in this post (about me or Saras). but I also think that there are more equally "bad" deffenders in the league and in the Pacers, but no one is bringing that upfront every two minutes ;)

Please name a worse defender on the team than Saras, and back up your facts.

Besides, what you're failing to understand is that Saras just happens to play (and can only play) the one position that were stacked at.

And I STILL think some of you are being unfair to Saras. He's a rookie point guard. It's hard to learn point guard as a rookie on a team that is (or was) expected to contend for a title. He wants to win, everybody knows that, and once he learns the system he'll be a regular part of it.


yeah, he got more minutes than expected in the begining, yeah, he can become a starter if he works hard.. but to be just another good NBA player like some 40 or 50 other guys and knowing that he's performing at some 60 or 70 percent at most (and will never perform at 100 because of NBA style) is not enough. so far Saras played at 50 percent imho.

You're not giving your boy enough credit. Any true great player can go into any system, learn it, and be able to perform in it and give 100%. You saying he'll never perform 100% in the entire NBA because of the style is like saying he's not good enough to play in the NBA. I don't even believe that myself. I've seen enough to be convinced that he's an NBA level talent.

Quit making excuses for the guy. Yes, he's a poor defender, but that's not why he's not playing. Look back at when we had Mark Jackson under Larry Brown. He was slow as a turtle. We even traded him away, then traded back for him admitting a mistake. Why? Because he knew the system better than anybody else. Once Saras learns the teams system, he'll be playing. When we're on (and when we have JO), our ability to play team defense can help make up for an individual players defensive weakness - which is part of learning the system.

Saras would easily be playing on any other non-playoff team right now, or on any other playoff team that doesn't have the pg depth we do. But knowing who we had, he decided to sign here anyway. We didn't make him do that. I think this contract he signed gives him this one opportunity to show that he can play at this level. If he doesn't succeed, he won't get another contract anywhere else... in the NBA at least. He came here for a challenge, and he's getting it.

Besides, for a rookie I'd say he's played well above average. He just happens to be on a team that in a playoff race that needs to use its veteran PG's to get them where they need to go. The only reason Granger has gotten more playing opportunity as a rookie is because we're not as deep at his position, and he's taken advantage of every minute he's played no matter what position he's playing. He too is adapting to the NBA style just like Saras. So this "Saras can't play 100% in the NBA" stuff is a load of crap.

Seed
03-24-2006, 04:35 PM
You're not giving your boy enough credit. Any true great player can go into any system, learn it, and be able to perform in it and give 100%. You saying he'll never perform 100% in the entire NBA because of the style is like saying he's not good enough to play in the NBA. I don't even believe that myself. I've seen enough to be convinced that he's an NBA level talent.

Quit making excuses for the guy. Yes, he's a poor defender, but that's not why he's not playing. Look back at when we had Mark Jackson under Larry Brown. He was slow as a turtle. We even traded him away, then traded back for him admitting a mistake. Why? Because he knew the system better than anybody else. Once Saras learns the teams system, he'll be playing. When we're on (and when we have JO), our ability to play team defense can help make up for an individual players defensive weakness - which is part of learning the system.

Saras would easily be playing on any other non-playoff team right now, or on any other playoff team that doesn't have the pg depth we do. But knowing who we had, he decided to sign here anyway. We didn't make him do that. I think this contract he signed gives him this one opportunity to show that he can play at this level. If he doesn't succeed, he won't get another contract anywhere else... in the NBA at least. He came here for a challenge, and he's getting it.

Besides, for a rookie I'd say he's played well above average. He just happens to be on a team that in a playoff race that needs to use its veteran PG's to get them where they need to go. The only reason Granger has gotten more playing opportunity as a rookie is because we're not as deep at his position, and he's taken advantage of every minute he's played no matter what position he's playing. He too is adapting to the NBA style just like Saras. So this "Saras can't play 100% in the NBA" stuff is a load of crap.

That was such a great post I had to post it again. (and I might do it a second time, I warn ya).

Yes, its true Rick could treat him better, but the fact that he's no longer the golden-boy can only do him good. I don't think he was written off. It's time for him to regroup and get back his minutes one by one. If he can not, it's gonna be a damn shame for the Pacers, but mostly for him.

beast23
03-24-2006, 04:42 PM
I pretty much agree with everything you wrote in this post (about me or Saras). but I also think that there are more equally "bad" deffenders in the league and in the Pacers, but no one is bringing that upfront every two minutes ;)Kestas, I would urge you to read previous posts of this forum.

That's one thing that every single one of us on the forum are "good at". And that is pointing out the the weaknesses that we perceive in our players.

We have so so many dialogues regarding players. For example, the pro- and anti-Bender debate centered on his ability to know how to play within the offense and on his defensive man-to-man weaknesses.

For 2 or 3 years, Peck and Uncle Buck had an ongoing debate regarding their different perceptions of Foster's rebounding and defensive abilities.

Of course, we've had debates regarding Artest and his defensive prowess while also being disruptive in the offensive.

We have a pro-Tinsley group and another faction that is disturbed by his lack of man-to-man defensive abilities, as well as his on-court temperament.

My point is that you can find some subset of posters that praises every player on the roster. And every player is also criticized by some group of posters.

We discuss players and our team. And our coaches and basketball in general. The good and the bad. That's what we do.

But, and this is a huge "but". It's been referred to as the "elephant in the room". I believe that each long-term poster deep down in the pit of his/her soul, even though each has favorite players and others that he/she does not like, considers the success of the team more important than the success of his/her favorite players. To us, we are, and always will be, Pacer fans first and foremost. Or in Kstat's case, a Piston fan.

And that is the problem that we have with those that so avidly support Saras. Many, if not most of you, put the individual (Saras) ahead of the team.

And, I might as well say it. I find that very hypocritical. Many of you state that Carlisle is basically guilty of not making his team better because he has not found a way to more successfully incorporate Saras. Yet, truth be told, most of the time the individual making the statement doesn't give a damn about "the team".

On this forum, most of us live, breathe and bleed the Pacers. Many of our European posters live, breathe and bleed Saras. That is a huge difference. Especially in consideration of the fact that we are talking about a TEAM sport.

Seed
03-24-2006, 04:51 PM
Kestas, I would urge you to read previous posts of this forum.

That's one thing that every single one of us on the forum are "good at". And that is pointing out the the weaknesses that we perceive in our players.

We have so so many dialogues regarding players. For example, the pro- and anti-Bender debate centered on his ability to know how to play within the offense and on his defensive man-to-man weaknesses.

For 2 or 3 years, Peck and Uncle Buck had an ongoing debate regarding their different perceptions of Foster's rebounding and defensive abilities.

Of course, we've had debates regarding Artest and his defensive prowess while also being disruptive in the offensive.

We have a pro-Tinsley group and another faction that is disturbed by his lack of man-to-man defensive abilities, as well as his on-court temperament.

My point is that you can find some subset of posters that praises every player on the roster. And every player is also criticized by some group of posters.

We discuss players and our team. And our coaches and basketball in general. The good and the bad. That's what we do.

But, and this is a huge "but". It's been referred to as the "elephant in the room". I believe that each long-term poster deep down in the pit of his/her soul, even though each has favorite players and others that he/she does not like, considers the success of the team more important than the success of his/her favorite players. To us, we are, and always will be, Pacer fans first and foremost. Or in Kstat's case, a Piston fan.

And that is the problem that we have with those that so avidly support Saras. Many, if not most of you, put the individual (Saras) ahead of the team.

And, I might as well say it. I find that very hypocritical. Many of you state that Carlisle is basically guilty of not making his team better because he has not found a way to more successfully incorporate Saras. Yet, truth be told, most of the time the individual making the statement doesn't give a damn about "the team".

On this forum, most of us live, breathe and bleed the Pacers. Many of our European posters live, breathe and bleed Saras. That is a huge difference. Especially in consideration of the fact that we are talking about a TEAM sport.

Crap, this post is grand too. You'll have to ban me guys.

Evan_The_Dude
03-24-2006, 04:55 PM
Very very well said Beast! :thumbup:

beast23
03-24-2006, 04:58 PM
That was such a great post I had to post it again.

That was a nice post by ev Eezy.

The one thing that needs to be stressed from the post, and many of us have stated it many times through the years, is that Point Guard is the most difficult position to learn how to play in the NBA.

It takes an extremely talented individual to come into the league as a rookie PG and set it on fire. We don't see that very often, and when we do, it almost always involves a player that enjoys a pretty "special" career.

But far more often, a PG will struggle for a year or two, or even come off the bench, before developing into a solid PG. Many of those players have nice careers, even if not a spectacular ones.

AJ has never set the world on fire in the NBA. In fact, initially he couldn't get himself into the NBA. Yet here he is with the Pacers, having a pretty sold career. Let's face it. Throughout Tinsley's time off the court, we've had seasons that would have gone down the toilet, including this one, if we didn't have AJ.

I view Saras having a similar impact as AJ. It might take a season in order for him to "get it" and make progress in overcoming some of his weaknesses, but next year he will be better.

Anthem
03-24-2006, 06:12 PM
On this forum, most of us live, breathe and bleed the Pacers. Many of our European posters live, breathe and bleed Saras. That is a huge difference. Especially in consideration of the fact that we are talking about a TEAM sport.
Wow, I never thought about that.

It's almost unspeakably ironic that the European posters who claim NBA's all about the individuals instead of all about the team are the same ones that are only rooting for an individual.

Seed
03-24-2006, 06:24 PM
I have a friend who uses to say:
"It's better being rich and healthy than poor and sick".

I think most of the European fans would like to see Saras and the Pacers win, and wouldn't be comfortable with Saras looking good and the Pacers loosing. At least that's what I believe. It's hard to expect a Saras fan joining this forum to become an instant Pacer fan, and prefer the team over the player.

Anyway, I welcome even the fanatics. But I prefer guys who stay reasonable and acknowledge a player being in a slump (or injury prone for that sake).

Kstat
03-24-2006, 06:45 PM
I have a friend who uses to say:
"It's better being rich and healthy than poor and sick".

Wow. I never thought of that one before. Your friend is truly a deep thinker.

Cause you know, all this time I've wanted to be poor and sick, but that opened my eyes. :laugh:

Seed
03-24-2006, 07:10 PM
Wow. I never thought of that one before. Your friend is truly a deep thinker.

Cause you know, all this time I've wanted to be poor and sick, but that opened my eyes. :laugh:

I was wondering whether someone would mis-interpret it.
This sentence was actually supposed to be funny.
Guess that didn't work too well. :(

Evan_The_Dude
03-24-2006, 08:20 PM
You know, while I was wrenching on one of my cars today (funny how well I think when I'm pissed off at my car), I put myself in the Saras fans shoes.

What if Reggie Miller at 29 years old left the NBA to play in the Euro League, then ended up in the position Saras is in? I'd probably feel the same way they do. A great player like him on the bench, I'd probably be saying "Play Reggie", and saying "Your team lost because they didn't play Reggie" too. We know that scenario wouldn't ever happen, but I can understand where they're coming from after thinking about it like that.

Moses
03-24-2006, 09:39 PM
Wow. I never thought of that one before. Your friend is truly a deep thinker.

Cause you know, all this time I've wanted to be poor and sick, but that opened my eyes. :laugh:
Careful now.

You wouldn't want to upset the balance of gravity and order with that deep spectrum of thought. :D

BigMac
03-24-2006, 11:52 PM
I was wondering whether someone would mis-interpret it.
This sentence was actually supposed to be funny.
Guess that didn't work too well. :(


Don't worry you did fine. Kstat is just an a$$hole. As most of if not all Pistons fans are. Seriously why is he still here. Most of his comments are not a different perspective but rather a smart a$$ comment. Sorry Uncle Buck, I disagree that his perspective is welcome here. I can read that national writers for other perspectives. Here I just want to read about the Pacers even though this board has become less and less interesting as the days go by.

Kstat
03-24-2006, 11:56 PM
Don't worry you did fine. Kstat is just an a$$hole. As most of if not all Pistons fans are. Seriously why is he still here.

:buddies:

I'm here because I love your posts so much. I spend every waking moment hoping for another nugget of wisdom from the legendary Bigmac. :D

efx
03-25-2006, 12:07 AM
Don't worry you did fine. Kstat is just an a$$hole. As most of if not all Pistons fans are. Seriously why is he still here. Most of his comments are not a different perspective but rather a smart a$$ comment. Sorry Uncle Buck, I disagree that his perspective is welcome here. I can read that national writers for other perspectives. Here I just want to read about the Pacers even though this board has become less and less interesting as the days go by.

Well, I'm glad you do not define what's welcome here or not :)