PDA

View Full Version : Woe is me,



able
03-22-2006, 07:31 AM
shame and scandal in the family.

What a performance, truly, amazing but so predictable that it's sad and laughable at the same time.

Let's start by saying that I miss Peck's odds once again and am dissapointed by that, surely he's not waiting for me to post my vinegar and vitriol?

Since he's to busy, I will post some thought, under a plausible header, because it was all woes and the result is an outright scandal in our little Pacers family.

I won't comment (yet) on Rosen's article (can you call it that?) that was mentioned in another thread, but make my own here.

First quarter, not that good, and the remainder downright deadly poor.

How come? Fatigue? No chance. "Off" day at the office? No chance. Bad players? No chance.

There are a few things happening, those few things are killing what little chemistry we had and doing a darned fine job of it, it's as simple as that.

This team has been in dissarray so long and so much that the "natural" pecking order has been disturbed so badly that despite the Ron Artest trade we did not heal yet.

Now some players are labelled "injury prone" without a definition of the word, so I decided to look it up, strangely enough no dictionary touches upon the word combination, but google (for now) is (still) our friend.

So it relates to sport, whoopee, and the most "injury-prone" bodypart is by far the knees, followed by the ankles. Something I would have never guessed :rolleyes:
Then I found this little gem: "About 85 per cent of elite and recreational badminton players (!) are injured during an average year, 65 per cent of regular runners are hit by the injury bug, and 21 percent of walkers are afflicted (by definition, an 'injury' is a physical problem severe enough to force a reduction in training)."

And I found out that "injury prone" is usually a result of "wrong movement" by the sports-person. It can even be "reduced significantly" according to Vicon Peak, who úresearch" the player and advice changes in movement or ways of moving to reduce the chance of injury, often injuries seem to occur from "wrong basic movement"

Now all that leads to what I stated long time ago; IF a player is "injury prone" then the injury he has should be re-occurring to begin with, i.e. the same injury or a closely related injury patern should emerge.

Anyone of you willing on the bases of that to still call our players, or the two it is about mostly, JO and JT, injury prone is invited to prove their position other then by pointing to the amount of games missed. "bad luck" is easier to describe these injuries.

Sinusitis, despite what our residential quack says, is not something to take to lightly, but..... Tins was out for "flue like symptoms" which is a very natural occurrance and specially sports people have usually a lower tolerance then "normal" people, for various reasons.

So since it aint the flue and it aint his sinusses, it must be dope.

Oh and yeah, we know that for sure because those who come up with that are or used to be heavy users who recognise the symptoms OR were present while it happened........:rolleyes:

If that doesn't stick well then it has to be the boozer they went on last night (while in Memphis.............)

What this does is only showing that this board is just as dysfunctional as the team, a shambles.

So back to basketball and why the team is in shambles. Ready for some bashing?

At this moment in time I am sure that all practise time is concentrating on getting JO, Peja and Tins synched, that means that the current lineup will be changed, (no surprise) and NO I do not know this for sure, but it is so logic that it hurts, because they are the only 3 starters for the post season barring injury you can be sure of.

AJ played like AJ last night, that much was clear, neither of our 1st two PG's is a "shooting" PG despite what some people say, and they mainly run the plays Rick calls, so if they shoot, it is usually a standing order.

Jeff was not really Jeff, I was not impressed with his defense last night, but then again, everyone after the first 10 minutes seemed to get out of position once or twice to often.

Polly was Polly, hard working -eof-
Jax, was he there? not on defense at least, he was just not available for anything it seemed, his attitude is costly, no matter what you say, he does not come to play if it is not his ball, and when it is not his ball he also refuses to play defense.
jax is one of those players that has "grown" into the "wrong" role. Originally signed to be the 6th man at best he was pushed in a starters role at SF because of the Artest suspension and upon failing to find an affordable SG starter, he was "moved" into the starting SG role at the beginning of the year.
Then his homey threw a socket wrench into a running engine and he made a choice to "stay with it" by voting him off as well but covered his "image" by supporting his mate in public. One can only assume this does/did not go down to well with the rest of the team.
Comments of late of players urging other players to play basketball and stop (re-)acting towards referees are tale-telling of more then Hulk's antics, they go deeper, all the way to Jax.
Peja is absolutely the best replacement money could buy for Ron Artest, but like Reggie he is somewhat dependant on team movement, screens and crisp passing, something lacking without Tinsley.
He did not hit great shots, but I must move Peja in the "if all else fails I can not carry it alone" category.
Then the "second coming" came into the game, with a performance that was to say the least nauseating. If that is described as "being ready when called upon" then we need to redefine some books and history, can I please have 10 drunk, stoned, injury prone, pouting and injury faking PG's in exchange for whatever you want?
Throwing a no-look pass behind a player and then acting pissed off with that player for not paying attention to you was the best reason I've seen in some time for jacking a player from the line-up. But combine that attitude with some of the (international) press clipping we were allowed to share around here previously and you have another disaster chemistry wise on a team that is brittle to say the least to begin with.

Hulk had another poor "shooting" night, but grabbed a decent amount of rebounds, and usedhis body and did not receive a concussion this time, so that is called progress, though I am still under the impression that a clean block is not a foul, the zebras do not agree with me, so I will try and show a better attitude then David and shut up about it.
Yes another one the "team" is unhappy with, David, shut up and play, your attitude maybe a mirror of Jax' at times, you are not going to win anything with it, so leave it already.

Danny, when his shot didn't want to do what it usually does, and after tweaking his ankle one could not expect anything from him, perhaps except if it happens again being called "injury prone".

Fred, 0-7 (which seems to be a regular number lately for him) is pathetic, I know he's playing with a hand injury but perhaps he should hold on the shot attempts and drive and dish some more, in my opinoin he favours the injured hand to much and will only be a "body" while that heals, I do hope however that his mental state does not suffer from it.

In short, this team has clear chemistry problems, and whether they are stemming from overtalkative SG's pouting PG's or just stem from people who know what is happening in practise and fear for their minutes and position is not really important.
I predict (ok ok go out on a limb) to say that JO's return will signal JT's return to the starting lineup and that besides Peja all starter positions at this moment in time are up for grabs. Rightfully so I would add.

And no, I do not advocate wholesale changes, Jax and perhaps Saras out will most likely do more good then many realize.

But barring injury illness from JT I do not see Saras back on the floor soon, and I certainly would not be surprised to see Jax on the bench as well.

Perhaps it really is time for JO to come back and kick some *** on the team itself.
God knows we can certainly use him on the court right now.

Will Galen
03-22-2006, 07:56 AM
[QUOTE=able] Sinusitis, despite what our residential quack says,

Low blow.



In short, this team has clear chemistry problems,

I agree, Reggie said Ron wasn't the problem at the beginning of the year, and he wasn't talking about Saras. I think it's Jax and Tins.

SoupIsGood
03-22-2006, 08:10 AM
\

Sinusitis, despite what our residential quack says, is not something to take to lightly, but.....

What an idiotic thing to say, all in hopes of defending poor 'lil Tins-tins, even.

Screw that, screw your post, screw Tins, and screw you, buddy.

Will Galen
03-22-2006, 08:13 AM
What an idiotic thing to say, all in hopes of defending poor 'lil Tins-tins, even.

Screw that, screw your post, screw Tins, and screw you, buddy.

A lower blow!

heywoode
03-22-2006, 08:16 AM
That post gave me a headache.

Maybe it's just too early to try and comprehend that much muddling....

DeS
03-22-2006, 08:17 AM
I predict (ok ok go out on a limb) to say that JO's return will signal JT's return to the starting lineup and that besides Peja all starter positions at this moment in time are up for grabs. Rightfully so I would add.
This clearly leads to a mess: changing roles, new chmistry issues, new system and so on. AJ is effective with starters, but we don't know how effective he will be with 2nd unit. Tins & JO starting imo will lead to the old offense system as they both are not used to the new one (and the new one is falling appart after Tins return)...
I'm not saying that Tins & JO shouldn't be the starters, maybe Pacers need a shake-up now, I just want to say that Pacers are screwed and I see only a little positives, which could save us.


But barring injury illness from JT I do not see Saras back on the floor soon, and I certainly would not be surprised to see Jax on the bench as well.
I certainly would be surprised to see Jax on the bench. Jax should have been benched a long long time ago.

able
03-22-2006, 08:25 AM
losing the content and tripping over a word.....

quack: — ORIGIN abbreviation of earlier quacksalver, from Dutch, probably from obsolete quacken ‘prattle’ + salf ‘salve’.

Furthermore is it used commonly in the UK to refer to a doctor.

SoupIsGood
03-22-2006, 08:29 AM
Furthermore is it used commonly in the UK to refer to a doctor.


No *****!

It's flat out disrespectful and mean, and you know it.

able
03-22-2006, 08:31 AM
This clearly leads to a mess: changing roles, new chmistry issues, new system and so on. AJ is effective with starters, but we don't know how effective he will be with 2nd unit. Tins & JO starting imo will lead to the old offense system as they both are not used to the new one (and the new one is falling appart after Tins return)...
I'm not saying that Tins & JO shouldn't be the starters, maybe Pacers need a shake-up now, I just want to say that Pacers are screwed and I see only a little positives, which could save us.

If you stop to think about that "team chemistry" (which imo is a mess already anyway) then you will see that there is no way of simply "inserting" JO back into the current starting lineup or rotations.

Where does it leave Granger, Harrisson, Pollard?

So wholesale changes will have to be made and given that there is a month time, are likely to be made to mainly see how Peja and JO are working together, you have to throw JT in there in that case as well so you have a fait a complit that you will have to work from which leads to that statement from me.


I certainly would be surprised to see Jax on the bench. Jax should have been benched a long long time ago.

It is for that reason that it would not surprise me, the opportunity is "bigger" when JO is back, JO, Peja and for instance Granger(Jeff-David-Polly), JT and AJ can easily resolve the "lost" offense from Jax, in other words, we do not "need" him as bad with JO back and Peja on the floor.

Bball
03-22-2006, 08:35 AM
My God you'll work overtime to defend Tinsley... Very low blow in doing so...

-Bball

DeS
03-22-2006, 08:50 AM
If you stop to think about that "team chemistry" (which imo is a mess already anyway) then you will see that there is no way of simply "inserting" JO back into the current starting lineup or rotations.
I am talking about "team chemistry" from a teamwork (mutual understanding) point of view. But ok, I can stop thinking about it. I even can image, that Tins (&JO &all other) will be healthy for the rest of the season.
But... there are 2 ways to go (with Tins & JO as starters): to create the new system or to revert to the old system (with some minor tweaking to include Peja). And Imho there is no time left to create->test->adjust->improve_for_playoffs the new system. Most likely Rick will go 2nd way.


It is for that reason that it would not surprise me, the opportunity is "bigger" when JO is back, JO, Peja and for instance Granger(Jeff-David-Polly), JT and AJ can easily resolve the "lost" offense from Jax, in other words, we do not "need" him as bad with JO back and Peja on the floor.
Maybe, I just thinking - was it really that necessary to keep Jax on floor (that many minutes)?

Hicks
03-22-2006, 10:31 AM
I think we may have a culture clash here. I get the impression where able is from (or lives now; maybe both), "quack" is not viewed as a derogatory slang, whereas in the United States it usually is.

Ragnar
03-22-2006, 10:53 AM
Anyone have a link to this Rosen article?

I know I have been the resident AJ basher and he certainly sucked last night. I will say this. He is the second best pg on the team right now and Sarunas makes him look like and honest to god pg. I would be perfectly fine with not ever seeing him in a Pacer uniform again.

I really really really really wanted him to replace AJ. I had very high hopes for his role on this team and he is just not an NBA point guard. He may have been the best in europe but he is not even a very good backup pg in the NBA. (think what Jason Kidd or Jamaal or Andre Miller could to in the euro league.:-o :-o )

Tinsley needs to start tonight. Fred needs to sit untill his hand is healed he is a turnover waiting to happen. At this point I would start AJ at SG and let Eddie Gill be the backup pg (limited minutes AJ would get some of them). Let Jack come off the bench and make it known to him the reason he has lost his starting job is because of his inability to pay attention durring games.

At the end of the Kings game we ran the lineup Tins, AJ, Peja, Granger, Foster. That should be our starters tonight unless J.O. is back and then Granger can play backup to him and Peja.

3ballinhoop
03-22-2006, 11:15 AM
It's not a cultural clash in any way, this word is used in the same way in english, german, all scandinavian languages and of course dutch which it derives from.
A quacksalver is simply a person who treats people without medical education or in an extremely questionable way, praising blufftechniques as the real deal. "Kwakken" is dutch for the sound ducks make.

Nobody can claim that doctors are "commonly" referred to as quacks in the UK. That is simply not true and I would like to see this dude tell his own doctor that he thinks he is a quack. He would get educated quicker than fingers can write that kind of posts. It's extremely disrespectful, and born out of this guys blind and stubborn love for his player.

P.S. I don't like the way Jamaal Tinsley plays, the way he behaves, nor how he is always injured and never plays. Deal with it.

Bball
03-22-2006, 11:15 AM
Anyone have a link to this Rosen article?

I know I have been the resident AJ basher and he certainly sucked last night. I will say this. He is the second best pg on the team right now and Sarunas makes him look like and honest to god pg. I would be perfectly fine with not ever seeing him in a Pacer uniform again.

I really really really really wanted him to replace AJ. I had very high hopes for his role on this team and he is just not an NBA point guard. He may have been the best in europe but he is not even a very good backup pg in the NBA. (think what Jason Kidd or Jamaal or Andre Miller could to in the euro league.:-o :-o )

Tinsley needs to start tonight. Fred needs to sit untill his hand is healed he is a turnover waiting to happen. At this point I would start AJ at SG and let Eddie Gill be the backup pg (limited minutes AJ would get some of them). Let Jack come off the bench and make it known to him the reason he has lost his starting job is because of his inability to pay attention durring games.

At the end of the Kings game we ran the lineup Tins, AJ, Peja, Granger, Foster. That should be our starters tonight unless J.O. is back and then Granger can play backup to him and Peja.


Just a couple of weeks ago, with a regular role, Sarunas was doing fine as the second unit PG. Harrison was involved in the offense. There were some nifty assists taking place. He was distributing the ball to hot hands as well as getting everyone their touches. The team was winning. Suddenly, Tinsley comes back and roles are changed. Rotations change. ...And now Sarunas isn't a PG. And the team is losing.

I don't think the team was winning solely because Sarunas was playing nor do I think the team is losing soley because Tinsley has supplanted him. But I don't discount continuity, or more aptly-the lack of continuity, as a major factor in all of this.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
03-22-2006, 11:28 AM
I think Saras will be a very good backup next year. It seems like he's hit a wall or something. He is still a rookie. He will be a good player for us, though.

Jermaniac
03-22-2006, 11:31 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5435056

Ragnar here goes the link.

3ballinhoop
03-22-2006, 11:42 AM
Bball, you are very very right!
Why don't you go ahead and evaluate Saras after what he has done in the matches where he started or really played a lot at pg. Just a couple of weeks ago, he started against Washington backed up only by Gill and led the team to a win. He was also playing pretty solid as the backup pg. Not good for his standard, but solid, and the team was winning.
Now here you try to tell me he sucks, when he comes in for a few minutes after 4 straight DNP's, clearly without any confidence from the coach. You know, i'm not buying that. The good Jasikevicius, and i'm confident a lot of people in this league would love this player, needs some backing up from his coach, and he hasn't gotten any of that from the first second he came to the Pacers. Luckily, i am sure he will show it to many of the people who don't like him, here or somewhere else.

The Pacers have sucked since Tinsley is back. Not because Tinsley is a super-suck player, but, i support Bball on this one, because the roles were stirred up, and now the team has no rythm.

Seed
03-22-2006, 11:54 AM
Tinsley needs to start tonight.
I wonder if you actually believe your own words..
:huh:

bulletproof
03-22-2006, 12:13 PM
A lower blow!

Not really. To impugn a man in the manner in which able did is personal. What SIG did wasn't. His reaction was understandable, considering. Questioning Kaufman's medical expertise is one thing, calling him "the resident quack" is quite another, and is about as low as I've seen someone get here.

Seed
03-22-2006, 12:31 PM
Able, I've been reading PD for months now, and started posting just recently.
I got to tell you it seems your'e involved in just too many nasty clashes lately. Your'e generally fun to read, but you are way too aggressive at times.
For me - the peak was the posts that led a member called 'Fifo' to leave. I thought he was an interesting non-offensive participant, and I thought these incidents actually hurt the forum.
I really don't want this to seem like a personal attack.
Just asking to cool down a little, and have respect like you are respected.
Thanks..

Raskolnikov
03-22-2006, 01:15 PM
Able, I've been reading PD for months now, and started posting just recently.
I got to tell you it seems your'e involved in just too many nasty clashes lately. Your'e generally fun to read, but you are way too aggressive at times.
For me - the peak was the posts that led a member called 'Fifo' to leave. I thought he was an interesting non-offensive participant, and I thought these incidents actually hurt the forum.
I really don't want this to seem like a personal attack.
Just asking to cool down a little, and have respect like you are respected.
Thanks..
Fifo left?

I always seem to miss these kinds of 'debacles'.

I enjoyed reading his posts. Few were the times I didn't agree with him. But whether I agreed or not is of course not the point here: it's about the fact that his posts were well-thought, respectful and well put.

Ragnar
03-22-2006, 01:28 PM
Just a couple of weeks ago, with a regular role, Sarunas was doing fine as the second unit PG. Harrison was involved in the offense. There were some nifty assists taking place. He was distributing the ball to hot hands as well as getting everyone their touches. The team was winning. Suddenly, Tinsley comes back and roles are changed. Rotations change. ...And now Sarunas isn't a PG. And the team is losing.

I don't think the team was winning solely because Sarunas was playing nor do I think the team is losing soley because Tinsley has supplanted him. But I don't discount continuity, or more aptly-the lack of continuity, as a major factor in all of this.

-Bball

The thing you are missing is that Rick has changed Davids role durring this time and that has coincided with his downturn more than any pg change. If it were just Tinsley or AJ then David would have looked good again last night and he did not.

Lets get this clear. David Harrison is an off the ball weak side of the floor player. That is where he shines and that is where he was playing when Sarunas was able to find him for all of those open looks. Many of you have incredibly short memorys so I will remind you that earlier this year he was also playing extrmemly well and that was with Tinsley in the lineup. Both instances he was playing off the ball and the plays were not run to get the ball to him in the post.

There were plays run for him but they were having him on the weak side and driving the lane in order to get him open. Both Jamaal and Sarunas are good at this. The downturn in Davids play coincides with Rick starting to use him in the low post and actually running the offense through him on some plays ala Jermaine Oneal. I believe Rick started doing this to get the team ready for Jeremaine's return.

Actually if you want to induldge the conspiracy theorist in me, I think Rick has been using poor substitutions and miss using players in order to sell everyone on a return to the offense we all know and hate but thats for another thread.

The thing that can not be denied is that when Jamaal has been in at the ends of games we have won those games. And that when AJ has been in we have lost. That is a undeniable fact not a suposition on my part. Now how is it that AJ could have turned back into a pumpkin when he was playing fairly well. Again the substitutions have been poor (Fred is doing more harm than good right now and David is playing a role he is not suited for) and Rick has changed the way he has been using some of the players.

Rick knew we had to win the Kings game. We needed it as a fan base and the players needed it. In that game David played the weak side of the floor, AJ got minutes at the backup 2 with Tinsley at the end of the game. And what happened we put on a run and won the game going away. Why did he not use the same rotations and why did he go back to miss using David right after that? Again I think he is getting us ready for the return of the offense we hate.

Since86
03-22-2006, 01:29 PM
Why in the hell would you want to read that Rosen article?

It was a pile of ****, which could be out down by a 6th grader with no prior basketball knowledge.

He listed AJ, Foster, Freddie, Scot, and Granger as the ONLY keepers on the whole team. Right there he lost me.

Then read the individual bios.

He picks on Harrison because he "routinely ran back on defense with his head turned away from the ball. And showed both an unwillingness and an inability to pass the ball." His *****ing was the only other downside to his piece on DH.

We've all noticed that post offense is designed to get the shot. Whether we moan about JO, Jax, and now DH is irrelevant. He's saying Harrison never will be more than a "garbage time" player because of it. What an idiot.

Now look at Freddie's writing. "Fred Jones: Couldn't buy a bucket (0-7, zero points). When he finally did put the ball through the ring he was tooted for a charge! And, although he worked hard, his defense was equally as ineffective.

But Jones is a streaky shooter who simply had a game he'd like to forget. On a championship-caliber team, Jones could easily be the go-to scorer on the second unit."

Yet Fred is a keeper, and Hulk is garbage......

Ragnar
03-22-2006, 01:30 PM
I wonder if you actually believe your own words..
:huh:

Have you watched many games? If so I dont know how you could question that. The Pacers win 75% of the games he starts and finishes. We win 50% of the games started and finished by AJ. Actually this year I believe AJ's record is now south of .500

Since86
03-22-2006, 01:33 PM
Have you watched many games? If so I dont know how you could question that. The Pacers win 75% of the games he starts and finishes. We win 50% of the games started and finished by AJ. Actually this year I believe AJ's record is now south of .500

Wouldn't be that way if Tinsley was injured/"sick" for 80% of time.

He's either getting over an injury, or one's just occuring.

He's just about as dependable as Ron was, and he should meet the same fate, another team.

He's a good player WHEN he plays. He just doesn't play enough.

Harddrive7
03-22-2006, 01:43 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5435056

Ragnar here goes the link.


The comment about Granger was just hilarious. He has ONE bad game out of FIVE and Rosen throws him into the wall. This HAD to be a deadline article.

Seed
03-22-2006, 01:51 PM
Have you watched many games? If so I dont know how you could question that. The Pacers win 75% of the games he starts and finishes. We win 50% of the games started and finished by AJ. Actually this year I believe AJ's record is now south of .500

I won't repeat the usual stuff - most talented pg, injury prone, etc etc..
but even his greatest fan must see that you just can not tell where he stands on a current day. Let's see him constant and healthy for several games beofre talking about starting him. Currently this is making a mess of the team composure. Saras has completely lost it lately, and AJ's game is affected too. We must reach some steadiness.

Peck
03-22-2006, 05:06 PM
Let's start by saying that I miss Peck's odds once again and am dissapointed by that

Sorry about that guys, but on Wednesdays I have to be ver far from my home very early in the morning. This will go on until the latter part of May, so any Tuesday night games you probably will not read anything from me as I actually try & go to bed on those nights.

Besides, what was there really to say about last night?

DeS
03-22-2006, 05:10 PM
Just a couple of weeks ago, with a regular role, Sarunas was doing fine as the second unit PG. Harrison was involved in the offense. There were some nifty assists taking place. He was distributing the ball to hot hands as well as getting everyone their touches. The team was winning. Suddenly, Tinsley comes back and roles are changed. Rotations change. ...And now Sarunas isn't a PG. And the team is losing.

I don't think the team was winning solely because Sarunas was playing nor do I think the team is losing soley because Tinsley has supplanted him. But I don't discount continuity, or more aptly-the lack of continuity, as a major factor in all of this.

-Bball
I've adressed my concerns earlier in a poll:
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19960
At the time I thought that drastical changes should affect teamplay. Now I'm thinking the same way - the only thing that can bring us the wins - is the individual performance of our players - not the teamplay.

Fireball Kid
03-22-2006, 05:18 PM
Why I looked in this thread, I will never know.