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Moses
03-19-2006, 06:01 PM
Funny how Tinsley becomes the only culprit. David played like garbage again..Stephen played how he always does.

Our only 3 bright spots for the game were Jeff, Granger, and Peja. It's unfortunate Granger got into foul trouble. I think the #1 options in our offense should be Peja and Granger. Fred Jones should also be relegated to the starter. I could care less if Stephen plays better defense or matches up better or has a post game. The guy is simply bad as the starter. Tinsley played disgustingly as well. Bad game all around with the exception of Granger and Peja...As usual almost.

#31
03-19-2006, 06:02 PM
Can someone help me, i have a problem? After 2nd quarter my face now looks like this... :disturbed

What shall i do?

Bball
03-19-2006, 06:06 PM
Has Harrison's slide exactly coincided with Sarunas' demotion? It sure seems that way. Sarunas fed the big man in a position to score and use his assets. And he added an unselfish player to the floor. Something we sorely lack. That and mental toughness...

-Bball

Ant
03-19-2006, 06:06 PM
I agree, Tinsley has to know hes a terrible shooter and always has been,
hes at his best when he's penetrating and creating oppurtunities for people
who can actually shoot the damn rock, we all know this.

Stephen Jackson.... Im fed up, im not saying that this game was really more his fault than anyone else but im just sick and tired of his miserable shooting
performances game after game. Hes a turnover machine, flaps his gums to the refs all damn game, not a particularly good passer, and i really do believe he is more of an asset to the other team than he is to us. Hell even Phil Jackson came out and said as much after our game with the lakers. I really do believe we'll be a MUCH better team when he is gone and im gonna be dancing in the streets the day he is.

ghost
03-19-2006, 06:07 PM
Can someone help me, i have a problem? After 2nd quarter my face now looks like this... :disturbed

What shall i do?

:alcohol:

Seed
03-19-2006, 06:07 PM
We took 19 three pointers, making only 5. Boston took only 8 shots.

Bball
03-19-2006, 06:09 PM
Funny Moses, where did I say he was the only one at fault.

Its just lately everyone has been jumping on RC for not playing him down the stretch, I dont want to hear a peep of that tonight.

I knock Rick (or whoever) is responsible for ISO's/players going solo at the end of games/quarters.

How predictable to see Freddie stripped clean at the end of the 3rd. A play once again where the Predictable Pacers reared their ugly heads and made life easy for the opposition to play defense.

Did ANYONE not watching the game not know what was going to happen. Did anyone expect a pass once Freddie had the ball then?

-Bball

Ant
03-19-2006, 06:10 PM
RC and his little personal vendetta with saras is also starting to annoy me, give the guy some minutes, you made your point you mule

#31
03-19-2006, 06:11 PM
:crutch:

DeS
03-19-2006, 06:24 PM
I didnt see a vendetta, Runi just wasnt getting the job done
Yes - it's only a speculation, but it's hard not to see a vendetta if we take into account JAX or Tins (couple of games) on ~15-25% shooting.

diamonddave00
03-19-2006, 06:25 PM
It was truely sad to watch after the first quarter the Pacers hit 16 of 24 shots and even better have 13 assist passing the ball around. From that point on the hit 16 of 56 and rack up 8 assist.

Early in the game Peja hits 3 of 4 shots then goes to the bench with 3 1/2 left in the 1st quarter . Comes in early in the 2nd quarter hits a 3pointer and is taken out. Someone please explain that logic???

As I watched the Pacers lead only 36-24 after the first the game was eerily similar to the Kings 36-20 lead after one on Friday.

All those Jermaine bashers perhaps are having second thoughts about needing him???

Its only 1 game I know but seeing the Pacers 0-8 vs the Hawks , Celtics and Raptors is rough to take, in addition to loses to the Bulls, Knicks and Bobcats.

Mourning
03-19-2006, 06:26 PM
Maybe we should play Tinsley at SG then and see what happens to his FG% ...

Los Angeles
03-19-2006, 06:31 PM
Maybe we should play Tinsley at SG then and see what happens to his FG% ...
Classic.

DeS
03-19-2006, 06:41 PM
Jax? Yes. Granted Fred was hurt, but I would still like his minutes cut.

Mel-Mel? No way. The second he starts to turn into Jamaal Iverson he is pulled for AJ.

Sorry, no vendetta at all. Just a player who didnt work out at the point which he wanted, or the 2 which was the only available position.

I've already do not remember when Jax had the last good game. He's still playing his minutes and shooting his shots no matter what. Tins is having his next 2/3-12 shooting night, but I doubt, he would be benched. Not talking about David issue. RC not playing Saras in these circumstances, for me - it's like a coach wants to give a lesson for Saras (or a vendetta).

sixthman
03-19-2006, 06:44 PM
I'm more concerned about Jamaal's defense today. To be good defensively, you can't play off the ball, especially against a team like Boston, like we did today.

Ant
03-19-2006, 06:44 PM
Sorry, no vendetta at all. Just a player who didnt work out at the point which he wanted, or the 2 which was the only available position.

I wouldnt write him off quite yet, its still his rookie year even if he is 82 years old. He's got to get acclimated to the speed and tempo of the game and everything else that goes with the NBA. Its not as if the guy has been THAT awful either, his +/- numbers are good, his 3pt % is good, we all know him and peja are the best pure shooters on the team. The mule has given him how many dnp's because he didnt handle wanting to play the sg very well ??
Carlisle is the stubborn one here im sorry, saras best asset is being the floor general and getting other people involved, not scoring and spot up shooting. why does RC have to tinker with everything so damn much, hes a PG thats it, no more, hes never gonna be an NBA 2 guard why even waste time experimenting with it. I really dont see how saras play was so terrible that it warranted however many Dnp's he's recieved in a row now

J_2_Da_IzzO
03-19-2006, 07:14 PM
Has Harrison's slide exactly coincided with Sarunas' demotion? It sure seems that way. Sarunas fed the big man in a position to score and use his assets. And he added an unselfish player to the floor. Something we sorely lack. That and mental toughness...

-Bball

I always thought them 2 worked well together.

molten
03-19-2006, 07:16 PM
please enlighten me - is there any championship caliber player that has come out of NYC's playgrounds? all I keep hearing is how the kid's tough cuz he played real tough street ball and can dribble the ball between his legs... but more importantly, has he ever won anything (be it Pacers' 3rd string point guard Tinsley or anyone else)?

waterjater
03-19-2006, 07:48 PM
SOS is all I have to say. Same Old Sh!!!T

Score tons of points on layups and wide open jumpers by moving the ball....Then revert to selfish ISO plays trying to make plays by yourself while everyone stands around and watches?!!

And as I've said before, you can't maintain a lead that way (ISO Crap) as you noticed the reffing started to suck once we got the lead because they ignore fouls on the team that is behind....WHICH IS WHY YOU NEED TO KEEP MOVING THE BALL FOR EASY SHOTS BECAUSE YOU WON'T GET THE CALL!!

NBA players are just plain stupid and selfish. Tinsley was at the top of the list tonight.....his "contests" with every other point guard are childish.

If I'm the coach, I bench the first person who runs an isolation play. And if another one shows up, bench him too! Bench em' all.

How we can beat teams like Miami, Detroit and numerous others and continue to lose to the cellar dwellars is unbelievable and unforgiveable. This team is about as immature as they come.................and other than Granger and Foster, not even worth our time.

Water

Unclebuck
03-19-2006, 07:50 PM
The Pacers lost today for one reason. DEFENSE. It was horrible. There were so many mental mistakes out there it was unbelievable. Guys were in the wrong place, not following the game plan. Disgusting. The whole game the defense stunk, even the 1st quarter.

If the Pacers players think they can beat any team in the NBA with this type of defensive performance, they are delusional.


Watching the game today, I was thinking, "how good is Delonte West" I've never really paid much attention to him until today and I must say I was impressed. He is a great athlete, a good shooter, a really good defender, perhaos he's not a classic playmaker, but he's a pretty darn good point guard.


I do want to ask a question. Why can't Harrison score on anyone in the low post. He seems to be having trouble jumping, and he just can't score down there. I don't have any answers. But I see a big problem here.


Edit: OK, I just went back and read this whole thread. STOP BLAIMING THE OFFENSE. It was the defense that was horrible today. Wasn't it obvious.

Fireball Kid
03-19-2006, 07:51 PM
We must be the only team in the NBA with a .50+ record that has lost to teams with losing records more than anybody else. This is just sad.

Seriously, what is the problem with this team? Is it Rick? Is it Jermaine not being there? Team chemistry? One night, we look like a team that is capable of making it to the ECF's. And then the next night, we look like a team that just came straight out of the D-LEAGUE.

Eh.:alcohol:

Bball
03-19-2006, 07:56 PM
SOS is all I have to say. Same Old Sh!!!T

Score tons of points on layups and wide open jumpers by moving the ball....Then revert to selfish ISO plays trying to make plays by yourself while everyone stands around and watches?!!

And as I've said before, you can't maintain a lead that way (ISO Crap) as you noticed the reffing started to suck once we got the lead because they ignore fouls on the team that is behind....WHICH IS WHY YOU NEED TO KEEP MOVING THE BALL FOR EASY SHOTS BECAUSE YOU WON'T GET THE CALL!!

NBA players are just plain stupid and selfish. Tinsley was at the top of the list tonight.....his "contests" with every other point guard are childish.

If I'm the coach, I bench the first person who runs an isolation play. And if another one shows up, bench him too! Bench em' all.

How we can beat teams like Miami, Detroit and numerous others and continue to lose to the cellar dwellars is unbelievable and unforgiveable. This team is about as immature as they come.................and other than Granger and Foster, not even worth our time.

Water


What if the coach wants the ISO/one on one stuff? What if this is all simply a matter of the coach having more time to familiarize Peja with our plays and also paving the way for JO's return where Carlisle can be at his most comfortable... feeding the post and letting JO go to work.

-Bball

Unclebuck
03-19-2006, 07:58 PM
Defense anyone?

Bball
03-19-2006, 07:59 PM
Defense anyone?

Defense was horrid, Uncle Buck.

-Bball

waterjater
03-19-2006, 08:00 PM
What if the coach wants the ISO/one on one stuff? What if this is all simply a matter of the coach having more time to familiarize Peja with our plays and also paving the way for JO's return where Carlisle can be at his most comfortable... feeding the post and letting JO go to work.

-Bball

Then I'm terrified of the team we will become. Continual flame outs. Good news is I'll gain several hours of my life back per week.

Water

Bball
03-19-2006, 08:14 PM
Defense anyone?

How can the Pacers be expected to play defense when they have to stay behind to carp at a ref after each offensive possession?

-Bball

Gamble
03-19-2006, 08:17 PM
Tinsley is Iverson with a sinus infection and 20 extra pork tenderloins.

D-BONE
03-19-2006, 08:59 PM
Tinsley is Iverson with a sinus infection and 20 extra pork tenderloins.

PRICELESS!

D-BONE
03-19-2006, 09:03 PM
OK, Seriously. The team had a really bad vibe today. WATERJATER, your comment about it being a very immature team strikes me as right on target. Maybe it was just today, but I noted an immense amount of tension between the entire team (players and staff). Blame it on whoever or whatever you want-RC, Jack, DH, Saras, JT, a crappy performance. Whatever the case, this team looks like a chemistry problem in progress. They gotta get this mess on track soon.

Outlaw
03-19-2006, 09:10 PM
Has Harrison's slide exactly coincided with Sarunas' demotion? It sure seems that way. Sarunas fed the big man in a position to score and use his assets. And he added an unselfish player to the floor. Something we sorely lack. That and mental toughness...

-Bball

BINGO!!! I have stated before that Sarunas has done more for David Harrison's confidence than anyone on this team. He feeds him passes where all DH has to do is go up with the ball not create his own shots.

That alone is the reason Harrison's production has dropped off.IMO

Kegboy
03-19-2006, 10:04 PM
Defense is the problem. Period.

As for Hulk and Cabbage, Hulk had 14 and 7 on 6-10 shooting against Orlando, the infamous "Rick breaks Cabbage's streak" game. The next game against Denver, he had 8 and 7 on 3-4 shooting.

By comparison, while David had had a very good streak going, his last two games with Cabbage, he had 4 and 2 on 2-5 shooting, and 2 and 4 on 0-4 shooting.

Anthem
03-19-2006, 10:06 PM
Defense is the problem. Period.

As for Hulk and Cabbage, Hulk had 14 and 7 on 6-10 shooting against Orlando, the infamous "Rick breaks Cabbage's streak" game. The next game against Denver, he had 8 and 7 on 3-4 shooting.

By comparison, while David had had a very good streak going, his last two games with Cabbage, he had 4 and 2 on 2-5 shooting, and 2 and 4 on 0-4 shooting.
Keep those so-called "statistics" things out of this. And I'm watching your use of unwanted logic. We don't need that around here.

rexnom
03-19-2006, 10:11 PM
Defense is the problem. Period.

As for Hulk and Cabbage, Hulk had 14 and 7 on 6-10 shooting against Orlando, the infamous "Rick breaks Cabbage's streak" game. The next game against Denver, he had 8 and 7 on 3-4 shooting.

By comparison, while David had had a very good streak going, his last two games with Cabbage, he had 4 and 2 on 2-5 shooting, and 2 and 4 on 0-4 shooting.

And the crowd fell silent...

I just think it's part of the process. David is still developing. There will be bumps. There is a reason why Center is a tough position.

Gamble
03-19-2006, 10:33 PM
Defense is the problem. Period.

As for Hulk and Cabbage, Hulk had 14 and 7 on 6-10 shooting against Orlando, the infamous "Rick breaks Cabbage's streak" game. The next game against Denver, he had 8 and 7 on 3-4 shooting.

By comparison, while David had had a very good streak going, his last two games with Cabbage, he had 4 and 2 on 2-5 shooting, and 2 and 4 on 0-4 shooting.

Thanks for ruining it Kegboy. I felt a whole lot better when I had
a reason why David was sucking today.

His rebounding wasn't so bad though.

Ragnar
03-19-2006, 10:50 PM
I don’t have much to say, but since we have been bombarded as of late with people crucifying RC for not playing Tinsley at the end of games; I don’t want to hear a word about that today.

Mel-Mel showed his two biggest weaknesses, going 1 on 1 with West and making it a personal battle taking the offense out of rhythm, and taking those jump shots (namely 3 pointers) when he clearly couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn

Waite a minute. The Pacers were down 4 when Rick took Tinsley out and in the final 4 anf a half minutes we ended up going down by more than 10. I agree Tins shot was not falling but he is a clutch player and one of our best when it comes to late game heroics. Pulling Tinsley COST US THE GAME. I am so fed up with Rick right now I can barely see straight. I dont know if I can even keep watching this crap if Rick is just going to keep throwing the game away in the closing minutes by going with AJ.

Also why does Rick keep trying to turn Davis Harrison into Jermaine instead of using him like Dale?

able
03-19-2006, 11:12 PM
Waite a minute. The Pacers were down 4 when Rick took Tinsley out and in the final 4 anf a half minutes we ended up going down by more than 10. I agree Tins shot was not falling but he is a clutch player and one of our best when it comes to late game heroics. Pulling Tinsley COST US THE GAME. I am so fed up with Rick right now I can barely see straight. I dont know if I can even keep watching this crap if Rick is just going to keep throwing the game away in the closing minutes by going with AJ.

Also why does Rick keep trying to turn Davis Harrison into Jermaine instead of using him like Dale?
AAAAAHHHHHh So i wasn't the only one.....

1: as far as the Tinsley = less shots for David theory goes, Friday he was 0-9 from the floor, 7 of those were from Tins, 2 from Granger.

2: David is playing the "JO" role atm, he is asked to make plays under the basket, put the ball on the floor, now JO has obvisouly shown him those ropes and I am sure David improved on a lot of things lately with the tutoring form JO, but uhh leave the postmoves to JO for now David, that's why he makes the big bucks and you fight for PT.

If anything on offense is wrong it is Jax shooting to much (what else is new) and David trying to be JO (or is that a coach's instruction?)

Defense lost us this game, good defense creates good offense.

Tins' shot was not falling, but he was playing ok, not every night is star time, he was certainly better then AJ (what else is new)
And as for crunch time player: Friday night 0.21 on the clock, two FT's both made from a 61% shooter, who simply becomes a 100% shooter in crunchtime.
I still feel that this team does not go enough to Peja and to much to Jack and letting Tins play with the bench is not the best for this team.

I do have a feeling JO is closer to returning then most people think and that the plays ran through David in a "JO position" are just that, getting Tins ready for JO again.

Why do I have this nagging feeling that practise time and scrimmage are used for things we do not yet see on the floor?

Bball
03-19-2006, 11:47 PM
The stats re: Harrison and Suruna vs Harrison and Tinsley/AJ just might not to tell the whole story.

Sarunas looked for Harrison. He got him the ball in situations where he Harrison had his best chance to score. He didn't just throw him the ball and expect him to 'go to work'. He made confidence building kind of plays.

That is not happening now.

The more we get back to our 'crap' offense (notice I don't like it when players aren't looking to pass, moving without the ball, sharp cuts, etc) the less use Carlisle has for Sarunas.

I want a coach that minimizes the ISO crap and emphasizes ball movement and motion... I want rebounding and blocking out to be a shared load for the bigs... And where is the intensity on defense?

Carlisle has teased us with a motion type offense 3 times now (once right after 11/19, again after JO's 2005 injury, and then in 2006) and takes it away every time in favor of his beloved one on one offense with 4 guys watching. We have a team, we should use them, not encourage selfishness and create animosity and question marks.

I'm not inclined to spend any more ticket money to watch what I think is bad basketball.

Bball

McKeyFan
03-19-2006, 11:51 PM
This didn't lose us the game, but it is instructive of Rick's larger problem:

The first six minutes of the game were, by far, our best. We went 11-12 from the floor, most of them on layups from nice assists. There was incredible flow and chemistry. We are up 14.

Granger gets a foul with 6 and 1/2 minutes still to go in the first quarter. Rick takes him out. ONE FOUL! SIX AND 1/2 MINUTES STILL LEFT IN THE FIRST QUARTER!!!!

We instantly lose the chemistry and they are within four very quickly. Can't Rick quit tampering and let things flow once in a while?

LjuboDaMan
03-20-2006, 12:00 AM
kobe is shooting 27 times a game

i just want to see peja shoot that much one season and thats all

sweabs
03-20-2006, 12:09 AM
Keeping Tinsley in would have COST US THE GAME. He couldnt hit a 3 point shot if you paid him to...oh wait.

Tinsley was pulled cause he couldnt play with in the system and because he was forcing shots.

I find it interesting that you, along with many others, have alluded to some of these points (which definitely have a tendency to show up in Tinsley's game).

So...if Tinsley "can't hit the 3 point shot", "can't play within the system", and starts "forcing shots", then why aren't we experimenting with Sarunas more? God knows we are paying him enough, and it seems like a waste of money to have him rotting at the end of the bench. Sure, his defence is nothing special, but Tinsley hasn't exactly displayed his "defensive prowess" in the last few games.

Sarunas can hit the 3 point shot. Sarunas can play within the system. Sarunas doesn't tend to force shots. Geeze - it's worth a try. Switch things up a little. It's a luxury that we have 3 such solid PG's who are all so different in their styles of play. If one guy isn't playing well, switch things up - give Sarunas a chance!

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 02:17 AM
I find it interesting that you, along with many others, have alluded to some of these points (which definitely have a tendency to show up in Tinsley's game).

So...if Tinsley "can't hit the 3 point shot", "can't play within the system", and starts "forcing shots", then why aren't we experimenting with Sarunas more? God knows we are paying him enough, and it seems like a waste of money to have him rotting at the end of the bench. Sure, his defence is nothing special, but Tinsley hasn't exactly displayed his "defensive prowess" in the last few games.

Sarunas can hit the 3 point shot. Sarunas can play within the system. Sarunas doesn't tend to force shots. Geeze - it's worth a try. Switch things up a little. It's a luxury that we have 3 such solid PG's who are all so different in their styles of play. If one guy isn't playing well, switch things up - give Sarunas a chance!

Ditto.

I tried to bold a sentence I support the most, but I couldn't.
I should have bolded the whole comment.

:highfive:

CableKC
03-20-2006, 02:25 AM
Has Harrison's slide exactly coincided with Sarunas' demotion? It sure seems that way. Sarunas fed the big man in a position to score and use his assets. And he added an unselfish player to the floor. Something we sorely lack. That and mental toughness...

-Bball
I don't know if there is a correlation....but Harrison seems to be the type of player that would need to have the ball in the right place at the right time. Maybe because Harrison's productivity was a result of being used to playing with the 2nd unit that Sarunas ran ( alongside Freddie and Granger )?

But I guess Tinsley can do the same? :confused:

Mourning
03-20-2006, 03:00 AM
I find it interesting that you, along with many others, have alluded to some of these points (which definitely have a tendency to show up in Tinsley's game).

So...if Tinsley "can't hit the 3 point shot", "can't play within the system", and starts "forcing shots", then why aren't we experimenting with Sarunas more? God knows we are paying him enough, and it seems like a waste of money to have him rotting at the end of the bench. Sure, his defence is nothing special, but Tinsley hasn't exactly displayed his "defensive prowess" in the last few games.

Sarunas can hit the 3 point shot. Sarunas can play within the system. Sarunas doesn't tend to force shots. Geeze - it's worth a try. Switch things up a little. It's a luxury that we have 3 such solid PG's who are all so different in their styles of play. If one guy isn't playing well, switch things up - give Sarunas a chance!

Bingo!

D-BONE
03-20-2006, 06:19 AM
Pulling Tinsley COST US THE GAME. I am so fed up with Rick right now I can barely see straight. I dont know if I can even keep watching this crap if Rick is just going to keep throwing the game away in the closing minutes by going with AJ.


AJ-5/10G FGs & 8 assists in 26 min. JT-2-12 FGs & 2 assists in in 20 min. Don't see how you can argue with this as far as last night. In general, Tinsley might stand a bump in performance if on more w/ the starters. Plus JT's D allowed Delonte West to look like a top 10 PG scoring the ball. Oh, wait a minute, I guess he displaced JT from that list then.

Let's be honest here, one guy getting slightly more shots or minutes (Peja, JT, Granger, whoever) is not going to solve the issue IMO. These guys are not playing together too often and not giving max effort for 48 minutes too often. No, they are not a championship calibur team, but it is reasonable to expect them to beat a Boston, Atlanta, Toronto, etc. at home on occasion.

I keep waiting for some new trend, but each time we get a good W we just suck back into the same old routine. I mean we're down to less that 20 games and now the storyline is JO is going to be the miracle cure.

I just don't know. The more this goes on the more I see irreconcilable chemistry issues and a group that just doesn't get it done as a unit. Barring a miraculous ECF appearnace, I hope they shake things up significantly in the off season. The only guys I personally would definitely want to see back are DG, AJ, and Foster and maybe Peja b/c he doesn't complain but I don't know about his asking price and ultimately his potential as a franchise cornerstone talent.

Lithfan
03-20-2006, 08:19 AM
Defense is the problem. Period.

As for Hulk and Cabbage, Hulk had 14 and 7 on 6-10 shooting against Orlando, the infamous "Rick breaks Cabbage's streak" game. The next game against Denver, he had 8 and 7 on 3-4 shooting.

By comparison, while David had had a very good streak going, his last two games with Cabbage, he had 4 and 2 on 2-5 shooting, and 2 and 4 on 0-4 shooting.

Please see stats of last two months that show different picture in the separate thread.

What you gave us here is something that anti-stats people always bring up. Random error.

able
03-20-2006, 08:35 AM
Where was it written in the bylaws of this site that EVERY F@NG thread has to be about our 3rd string benched PG who refuses to play SG in the interest of the TEAM, being hte teamplayer he is?

This is the "POSTGAME" thread, a game in which he did not come of the bench, yet this thread as most other threads is about our Lithuanian miracle man, the team player who does not want to serve his team.

I am reaching a point where I want to ask, no rephrase that, BEG Rick to play the bugger till the end of the season, play him 48 minutes and watch with us the miravcle that then will happen.

YES I am P'd off by this occurrance here as it totally ruins every thread that has the smallest tendency of being ruined.

PLEASE create a Sarunas Board so we can talk about other things here.

Ragnar
03-20-2006, 09:21 AM
You guys ae not getting it. If J.O. had been in after being back as long as Tins has and we were down by 4 with 4:32 remaining and Rick pulled J.O. and we lost by 15 the media and this board would crucify him.

But some of you are just as blid as Rick and seem to think Pulling Tinsley from the game is ok if he takes a bad shot. Even though when they put him in the game we were down by 11 and we were now down by 4 and when he was pulled the other team went on a huge run and we lost the game by 15.

You say Tinsley's D was terrible yet the other team lost 6 points while Tins was on the floor You think Johnson was a good defender but the other team aded 11 points to ther lead when AJ was on the floor.


HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THE CORRELATION!

Unclebuck
03-20-2006, 10:16 AM
Pulling Tinsley COST US THE GAME.



I know you watch every game, so I can't ask if you watched the game because I know you did. But I can't believe you think for one minute that taking Tinsley out is the reason why the Pacers lost. I think your love for Tinsley is clouding your judgment.

Rick had no choice but to take Tinsley out, he was hurting the team with his poor shot selection, AJ had to be brought back in. I don't think Rick wanted to bring AJ back, but he really had no choice

McKeyFan
03-20-2006, 11:04 AM
Where was it written in the bylaws of this site that EVERY F@NG thread has to be about our 3rd string benched PG who refuses to play SG in the interest of the TEAM, being hte teamplayer he is?

This is the "POSTGAME" thread, a game in which he did not come of the bench, yet this thread as most other threads is about our Lithuanian miracle man, the team player who does not want to serve his team.

I am reaching a point where I want to ask, no rephrase that, BEG Rick to play the bugger till the end of the season, play him 48 minutes and watch with us the miravcle that then will happen.

YES I am P'd off by this occurrance here as it totally ruins every thread that has the smallest tendency of being ruined.

PLEASE create a Sarunas Board so we can talk about other things here.

Many of us on this board have felt that the point guard position has been the key weakness keeping the P's from going to the next level.

Bird seemed to agree by making signing Saras a priority. The key strategic component of our long term plan was improving that spot. So, yes, if all of the sudden that key strategy starts going down the tubes, its going to be a point of discussion, especially if BBall is correct in regularly suggesting that Bird and Carlisle are not on the same page, and that Rick really should give Saras more of a chance.

So, in some ways talking about Saras is irrelevant to a game he did not play in. In other ways, it is the most relevant thing to talk about.

If you are a big Tinsley fan, then none of this makes a lot of sense to you, but at least this may help you understand why the Saras subject keeps emerging. It will continue.

Ragnar
03-20-2006, 11:32 AM
I know you watch every game, so I can't ask if you watched the game because I know you did. But I can't believe you think for one minute that taking Tinsley out is the reason why the Pacers lost. I think your love for Tinsley is clouding your judgment.

Rick had no choice but to take Tinsley out, he was hurting the team with his poor shot selection, AJ had to be brought back in. I don't think Rick wanted to bring AJ back, but he really had no choice

Yes I do watch every game. I was actually at this one so I watched it in person. I agree that Tins was not having a good game. That he was jacking up shots and that we were not running away with the game at that point. However the fact is that he had cut their 10 point lead down to 4 when he was pulled and he had drawn 5 fouls on the other team with his passes. (Remember the over all the defenders pass to Harrison that was so good that the other team had to pile on him to prevent the basket?)

When he pulled Tins (again down by 4 with 4:32 to go) we lost an aditional 11 points to them in that 4:32 where we had been cutting into the lead, we now lost momentum and lost not only the ground we had made up but even more ground.

My point is this. You dont pull your best players no matter how bad they might be playing at that point. If it had been Jermaine (or in the past Ron or Reggie) you would be on him like stink on his offense. In the last few minutes of a close game he should have had Tins, Jack, Peja, Granger and Foster in.

Instead he had Harrison in there who cant hit foul shots and Fred who right now because of his hand is a turnover waiting to happen. I would rather have Jack launch a bad shot than have Fred turn it over at the half court line for a fast break dunk on the other end.

Actually what would have been the best now that I am thinking about Fred's hand and Jacks bad decision making would have been Tins, AJ, Peja, Danny, Jeff.

I know you think I hate AJ but I dont. I think when he was in at the backup 2 he was extremely effective.

Unclebuck
03-20-2006, 12:52 PM
Ragnar, maybe if Tinsley would have stopped jacking up terrible shots Rick would have kept him in the game, in fact I'm sure he would have.

Tinsley should only shoot beyond 12 feet as a last resort. meaning if the shot clocking is winding down and a shot needs to be taken. Otherwise I don't want him shooting jumpshots. I like him shooting 12 feet and in when he has a favorable matchup like Friday night. (Poor point guard defender: Bibby, and no shot blocking behind him).

Why is Tinsley trying to score so much.

Also another pet peeve of mine. Why doesn't Tinsley run the pick and roll correctly. Jamaal please wait for the pick to be set. He rarely does, and it messes up the play.

AJ didn't play well yesterday either.

SarunasJ3
03-20-2006, 12:55 PM
Tinsley and Jax last night 8-29.:suicide:

Ragnar
03-20-2006, 12:56 PM
Why is Tinsley trying to score so much.


Quick question. Have you ever heard anyone notice that Rick liked shoot first pg's? Just curious. Maybe he is trying do play the way the coach wants him to play. Jamaal has made it clear in the past that he would much rather pass than shoot. People in here would go nuts because Jamaal would take 1 or even no shots in a game (we would invariably win that game but hey what do I know)

If you go back and re watch that part of the game you would see Rick call most of those plays you were just complaining about.

Los Angeles
03-20-2006, 02:23 PM
Quick question. Have you ever heard anyone notice that Rick liked shoot first pg's? Just curious. Maybe he is trying do play the way the coach wants him to play. Jamaal has made it clear in the past that he would much rather pass than shoot. People in here would go nuts because Jamaal would take 1 or even no shots in a game (we would invariably win that game but hey what do I know)

If you go back and re watch that part of the game you would see Rick call most of those plays you were just complaining about.
There's a huge difference between Tinsley before the brawl (the guy I liked)and Tinsley after the brawl (the guy I can hardly stand). They're like two different players. Knowing that he CAN play a different way based on his history doesn't mean that he WILL play that way.

We can't shift this onto the coach or any another guy. Tinsley's bad shot selection and "I'll save us" hero approach is his own problem. Since the brawl, he's playing more and more like Marbury, with similar results.

Ragnar
03-20-2006, 02:27 PM
There's a huge difference between Tinsley before the brawl (the guy I liked)and Tinsley after the brawl (the guy I can hardly stand). They're like two different players. Knowing that he CAN play a different way based on his history doesn't mean that he WILL play that way.

We can't shift this onto the coach or any another guy. Tinsley's bad shot selection and "I'll save us" hero approach is his own problem. Since the brawl, he's playing more and more like Marbury, with similar results.

Except that when Tins is in at the end of the game we win and when he is out we lose. Could you explaine that little problem with your theory? Do you know how many times we have beaten Detroit and Miami without Tinsley? Once that was Detroit earlier this year.

Los Angeles
03-20-2006, 03:26 PM
Except that when Tins is in at the end of the game we win and when he is out we lose. Could you explaine that little problem with your theory? Do you know how many times we have beaten Detroit and Miami without Tinsley? Once that was Detroit earlier this year.
I'm fine with you breaking it down that way. How many games is YOUR theory based on? Since he's been back, only three.

If you were to make the argument that our best individual PG is Tinsley, I'll agree with you 100%.

Make the argument that having Tinsley on our team is good for the team and I won't agree at all.

This was his year to play at least 70 games at a reasonable level and dispell my doubts. Right now, so much has changed since he went out that he frankly looks like the odd kid in the "one of these kids is not like the other" skit from Seseme Street. He doesn't Gel with the new game plan. He's not used to the players on the court. He's not 100% in shape and he's not comfortable with his shot. He was breathing out of his mouth, crappy on D and running out of gas when he was taken out.

If you want to tell me that AJ should have played the end of the third and the first half of the fourth, and then a fresh Tinsley should have been inserted to finish the game, I could even agree with that. But leave Tinsley in? After that performance? and with that level of obvious fatigue? No way.

Ragnar
03-20-2006, 03:52 PM
I am basing it on this year last year and the year before where we won 75% of the games Tinsley played in. I am also basing it on the fact that the only times we have advanced in the playoffs was with Tinsley in the lineup. Each time the last three years we have been bounced from the playoffs after Tinsley was unable to play.

Last year against the Celtics (how interesting!) we were on the way out of the playoffs and Tinsley came back early (ie: before he was healthy) we went on to knock the Cetlics out of the playoffs and the coach of the Celtics made the comment that they had the Pacers untill Tinsley came back and they HAD NO ANSWER FOR HIM. We then went onto the Pistons. We lost the first game on a save Tinsley for latter strategy because he was still injured.

He then started and finished the next two games limping up and down the court and we won those games. Game 4 he was limping too badly to even get up the court and Rick pulled him for the remainder of the series in which we did not win another game.

So if you want to say we need to trade Tinsley for a healthy good pg then I could at least see your argument. I have stated in the past and still stand by if Tinsley is injured this year for the playoffs I will be ready to see him moved. But to argue that we are in any way shape or form better off with AJ finishing a game when Tinsley is healthy is not born out by ANY facts.

When AJ runs the point (starts and finished games) we are a .500 team. When Tinsley starts or more importantly finishes games we are a .752 team. Which would you rather have as your winning%?

Los Angeles
03-20-2006, 04:11 PM
I am basing it on this year last year and the year before where we won 75% of the games Tinsley played in. I am also basing it on the fact that the only times we have advanced in the playoffs was with Tinsley in the lineup. Each time the last three years we have been bounced from the playoffs after Tinsley was unable to play.

Last year against the Celtics (how interesting!) we were on the way out of the playoffs and Tinsley came back early (ie: before he was healthy) we went on to knock the Cetlics out of the playoffs and the coach of the Celtics made the comment that they had the Pacers untill Tinsley came back and they HAD NO ANSWER FOR HIM. We then went onto the Pistons. We lost the first game on a save Tinsley for latter strategy because he was still injured.

He then started and finished the next two games limping up and down the court and we won those games. Game 4 he was limping too badly to even get up the court and Rick pulled him for the remainder of the series in which we did not win another game.

So if you want to say we need to trade Tinsley for a healthy good pg then I could at least see your argument. I have stated in the past and still stand by if Tinsley is injured this year for the playoffs I will be ready to see him moved. But to argue that we are in any way shape or form better off with AJ finishing a game when Tinsley is healthy is not born out by ANY facts.

When AJ runs the point (starts and finished games) we are a .500 team. When Tinsley starts or more importantly finishes games we are a .752 team. Which would you rather have as your winning%?
I think we're getting somewhere. This is the post game thread, so let's talk about yesterday's game only. I don't think leaving Tinsley in would have resulted in a win. Neither did Rick. He went with the fresh player and (sad to say) the "hotter" hand. At that moment in time, there was only one choice. That ultimatum could have been avoided if the rotation were staggered differently and Tins was inserted at a different time.

Now, let's talk globally. Here's the difference maker: I can't credit Tins for the games we won when he was available without crediting him for the losses when he was NOT available. You can say "when he starts, we win more games" and I can say, "when he's hurt, we lose more games". Either way, it's Tinsley we're talking about, and we're in agreement on his importance AND the disruptions caused by his absences.

It almost makes me cry (not really, but I'm making a point ;) ) to think of all of those teams that have the entire season to get better and better. With Tinsley and JO popping in and out of the line up, our team keeps going back to training camp with every shift in the lineup. We end up behind the progress curve almost every time, and that's the real reason we can make it to the playoffs, but die shortly thereafter.

Ragnar
03-20-2006, 04:35 PM
As I said arguing that Tinsley should be traded because he has been injured too much is a valid argument. I would even agree that after this season is over if we once again get bounced from the playoffs because Tinsley is not healthy then the team should look to trade him.

Again in this game. Tinsley came into the game when the celtics had a 10 point lead he left with a 4 point celitcs lead. We lost by 15. I think that speaks for itself. AJ managed to lose 11 points in 4:32. Do you honestly think Tinsley who in the last 4 of the Kings game put on a 10 point run in the other direction would have lost those 11 points?

Los Angeles
03-20-2006, 04:54 PM
As I said arguing that Tinsley should be traded because he has been injured too much is a valid argument. I would even agree that after this season is over if we once again get bounced from the playoffs because Tinsley is not healthy then the team should look to trade him.

Again in this game. Tinsley came into the game when the celtics had a 10 point lead he left with a 4 point celitcs lead. We lost by 15. I think that speaks for itself. AJ managed to lose 11 points in 4:32. Do you honestly think Tinsley who in the last 4 of the Kings game put on a 10 point run in the other direction would have lost those 11 points?
Yes. I honestly think that he was out of gas and was making bad decisions. I think that Rick made the right move, but it backfired when the entire team - not just Johnson, but everybody - stopped playing.

Also, not in my wildest dreams would I say that the team was playing good basketball when Tins was on the court.

Bball
03-20-2006, 05:01 PM
I trust Sarunas most to finish games because I think he stands the best chance of keeping the offense flowing and keeping the entire team dangerous... even if he does cause us to theoretically lose some on defense. And he is still a threat to score. That is assuming he's allowed some freedom to run the show and we're not running a 1 pass offense to Freddie, Sjax, or AJ and letting them 'go to work'.

I don't mean Sarunas coming in cold after sitting an entire quarter or game for the final possession tho.

-Bball

Raskolnikov
03-20-2006, 05:28 PM
Maybe this isn't the right place to post this but:

I just found out on QOD we're 0-8 against Atlanta, Toronto and Boston.

(Wow)^47

McKeyFan
03-20-2006, 05:55 PM
I trust Sarunas most to finish games because I think he stands the best chance of keeping the offense flowing and keeping the entire team dangerous... even if he does cause us to theoretically lose some on defense. And he is still a threat to score. That is assuming he's allowed some freedom to run the show and not we're not running a 1 pass offense to Freddie, Sjax, or AJ and letting them 'go to work'.

I don't mean Sarunas coming in cold after sitting an entire quarter or game for the final possession tho.

-Bball

Wurd.

Unclebuck
03-20-2006, 06:21 PM
I trust Sarunas most to finish games because I think he stands the best chance of keeping the offense flowing and keeping the entire team dangerous... even if he does cause us to theoretically lose some on defense. And he is still a threat to score. That is assuming he's allowed some freedom to run the show and not we're not running a 1 pass offense to Freddie, Sjax, or AJ and letting them 'go to work'.

I don't mean Sarunas coming in cold after sitting an entire quarter or game for the final possession tho.

-Bball



As you know I was with you early in the season on Saras. But I'm not anymore. Saras has a lot of trouble keeping this offense doing anything. He cannot beat any type of defensive pressure

Bball
03-20-2006, 08:12 PM
As you know I was with you early in the season on Saras. But I'm not anymore. Saras has a lot of trouble keeping this offense doing anything. He cannot beat any type of defensive pressure

That's why his +/- stat is so high.

-Bball