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Peck
03-18-2006, 02:14 AM
When we left the game tonight it was as though we had just won a playoff game in the latter part of may. There were people honking horns, flying pacer flags & cheering the hallways.

I felt as though I attended an exorcism instead of a basketball game in a way. Because there were a whole lot of fans there to exercise a demon from the fieldhouse.

Let's tackle this right up front, I was wondering how the crowd would react to him to be honest with you. I knew there would be some booing but I expected to see/hear a smattering of applause for Ron as well.

Let there be no doubt, when his name was announced there was a thunderous cacophony of boo's that rained down upon him. Only Usama Bin Laden would have recieved a worse reception & I'm not even sure of that.

So if anybody tells you differant, they were hearing what they wanted to hear.

For the first half, whenever Ron would touch the ball the boo birds came out to play. But by the second half it died down a little but by the end of the game they were back in full force until the end when he missed so many shots then it just became a huge roar of cheers when he would miss.

I would like to thank Ron for reminding me why I never much cared for him as a player even though I always aknowledged how good he was. I cannot stand for one player to dominate the ball as much as he does & his total collapse at the end of the game where he kept forcing shot after shot after shot made me appreciate Pedja all the more. 6-22. Hell that makes Stephen Jackson look reasonable.

The fact that the Kings let this guy bring the ball up the floor just tells me all I need to know.

I'm glad the fans got that out of thier system & I expect from here on out whenever he comes back he will be boo'd but I think it will be less & less each time.

BTW, was that thing where he stole the ball from the Leprechaun at the beginning of the game planed? If it wasn't, what an @ss. But then again what else would I expect of him. Although I have a feeling that was staged.

I have never felt better about seeing a player in another uniform in my entire life. The fact that we beat the kings, Pedja outplayed him & Danny Granger played like a future hall of famer made the game all that much more sweet.

It was a great win & one that both the franchise & it's fans needed.

However it didn't start out that way. About midway through the first half we were getting smoked & the boo's were just constantly coming. Whenever Ron had the ball & whenever our team screwed up, which was frequent.

I could never figure out for the life of me though how they were beating us because they didn't have a center out there.

I mean I knew I would look up & see some form of stats for five guys but either Thomas or Rahim had to be playing center for them all night because I know as sure as I'm sitting here right now that their starting center had to be on the reserve list because I've been told that after the all-star break he never plays because he is injured.

I don't know who it was that was two rebounds & one assist shy of a triple double during the game.

Are you F'n kidding me??????:banghead: :banghead: :scream: :scream: :scream:

He d@mn near had a triple double.....

And there set Jermaine and there set Scot Pollard and there set the empty chair occupied by Jon Bender's spirit.

Here was this fluke of a player who wasn't worth the money we have paid to other lesser players almost by himself destroying us in the first half. Thank God in the second half he missed his shots, except he still stepped back & drilled a three on us.

Horrid Horrid Horrid trade. Even the "he's always injured" excuse holds no water now.

Not only was he scoring & passing & rebounding the guy completely shut off the lanes on us in the first half. He blocked two shots & altered several others, yet some think he can't play defense.

No, this is not a slam at Jeff Foster. Jeff fought as well as he could have but he is so one dimensional it's not even funny. Brad is a center Jeff is a power forward & it showed. Yes, Jeff got more boards. Yipee, Bonzi got more than Jeff does that make Wells a better rebounder? Jeff played fairly well though but he had problems on defense with Brad. Brad got whater shot he wanted but in the second half they just were falling short.

Ok, I'll stop now. But before I quit let me just say :censored:

Let's look at our team.

We'll go with the good the bad & the ugly format for tonights odd thoughts.

First the good.

Danny Granger. I know that this is sacreledge to ask this but I'll ask it anyway. When Danny was hitting those big shots in the third & was running down the court holding up one finger in the air did anybody else have visions of a young Reggie Miller? I swear when he hit those shots & how he hit those shots & how he ran down the floor it just reminded me of Reggie way way way back in the day. Before the Knicks & before he made a name for himself. It was young Reggie all over again.

Well let me readdress the nutball for a min., I can say that now because I've been respectfull to his fans for a good long while now, Danny Granger is already better than Ron Artest was at the same stage of his career. Ron couldn't stop Danny during the game & on a couple of occasions Danny stopped him cold. I will give the entire team credit for turning this game around & Carlisle gets a huge thumbs up for his coaching but it all started with Danny taking over the game on offense & totally shutting down the kings on the inside on the other side of the floor.

I have a question because during the game it came to me that maybe I've been looking at Danny wrong all season long. I've always said he was the quintisential small forward. What if I've been to narrow about that? I've been so used to needing the power forward to be big & strong in the post because for as long as I can remember our centers have been weak. But what if our center is strong & plays a power game, do we really need a powerfull powerforward? Seems that the Suns have done quite well with Shawn Marion playing the four for the past couple of seasons.

So when I keep reading that Bird wants to sign Pedja I keep wonder what will become of Granger. Well what if Birds plans all along are to use Pedja & Danny together? Would that be as bad as I first thought??? I'm beginning to question that?

Peja: 20 points on 13 shots with 12 rebounds. He was always down in the mix getting boards & those that he didn't get he helped keep alive. I don't know how many more times I can keep saying this but I'll say it again. He is better at everything than I thought he would be. Hell he even blocked a shot for good measure.

Jeff Foster: He was a lion down on the boards. He is so much better now that he doesn't use his quickness like he used to. He is better at positioning & fighting for rebounds than he has ever been. He can't shoot to save his soul but he gets an A for effort. Often times he was switched off onto Thomas & Rahim so I think he did a very good job of defending each of them. I hate that he has to play center again but it sounds like Pollard is out for at least a week so we are going to need him to play well. So far so good.

Jackson: man it seems like forever since I've been able to talk about Jax and put him in the good catagory. His shot didn't drop until the latter part of the 4th but he couldn't have picked a better time to hit some shots. But we have to give him credit, a lot of Rons shots that he missed were well guarded by Danny and a lot of them were guarded by Jax. He also hit the boards hard for our team as well & he made some very nice passes. What a joy it was to see him & the Tin man run the break in the second half. He still argued with the refs. but I guess that will never change. Overall though he played a solid game.

Oh yea, before I forget, remember how at the beginning of the season Richard Jefferson would not give Ron any credit for stopping him in our first meeting? Well, Ron returned the favor to us tonight by just saying he missed layups. :talktothe Ron missed twisting sideways falling down shots becuase our defenders swarmed him in the paint. If it wasn't Jax it was Granger so Ron did not just miss some open layups like he would have us believe.

Jamaal: He ran the team in the second half. We won in the second half, draw your own conclusions. He was able to get almost any shot he wanted, now some of that is due to the fact that the guy can generally get his shots, but some of it was due to the fact that Mike Bibby took to defense like a mule takes to a fishing pole. In other words Mike didn't play that great of defense. But d@mn can Mike hit the three....

A.J.: Not a great shooting night but he controlled the ball & dropped some dimes on the Kings. good solid defense, but this was Jamaals night.

The bad.

David Harrison: There is just no other way to put this, he sucked. For as good as he has been in some games he was that bad in this one. His one "T" a game thing is getting a little old. Yes, ref. # 51 who I don't know, was an @ss but you have to play through it. Brad just abused him all night long & he didn't like it. It's sad to because I wanted him to make me forget Brad like I was told that Sco..... Oh never mind.

David needs a mentor in the worst of ways & for some reason Chuck Person does not strike me as the mentor David needs to control his emotions. God knows that J.O. is not the mentor I want for David to NOT talk to the refs. I saw that there was a high priced p.g. sitting on the bench not playing & then I remember that there was the perfect mentor/tutor on our team last season. Oh well.....

David has to do better than this.

The ugly.

http://men.style.com/images/gq/features/050105/GQfeature4v.jpg

ChicagoJ
03-18-2006, 02:23 AM
Peck, do you think a Peja, Granger, JO frontcourt is big enough?

Do you think a Peja, Granger, Harrison frontcourt is talented enough?

Do I even have to ask about a Peja, Granger, Foster frontcourt? (I'll :puke: now.)

I'd rather have Granger at PF than SG right - when I see Danny I don't see a guard. And I'll swear that Peja looks to be the same size as Mullin to me. I know he's bigger, but he doesn't seem like it.

Anthem
03-18-2006, 02:24 AM
Good post, Peck.

I'll always believe that we traded Brad because Bird (admitted that he) only watched the playoffs, not the whole season. And Brad was wretched in the playoffs.

Peck
03-18-2006, 02:41 AM
Peck, do you think a Peja, Granger, JO frontcourt is big enough?

Do you think a Peja, Granger, Harrison frontcourt is talented enough?

Do I even have to ask about a Peja, Granger, Foster frontcourt? (I'll :puke: now.)

I'd rather have Granger at PF than SG right - when I see Danny I don't see a guard. And I'll swear that Peja looks to be the same size as Mullin to me. I know he's bigger, but he doesn't seem like it.


In order.

Big enough? Yes, but is J.O. willing to be the center who will be called upon to bang & rebound & defend? My guess is no. However, well let's just say that I am open to someone else in the middle.

Talented enough? Sadly that all depends on David's big shoulders & if it were like right now I'd say no. But go back to the Orlando game & tell me that that combo wasn't talented enoug. Again, I'm open to another center.

Well the combo of Foster, Peja & Granger won this game, but I get your point.

Look I'm still in the mind that Danny is a star in the making at the three, but I wonder if Bird isn't really looking to radically change things next season if we tank it in the first round.

larry
03-18-2006, 02:42 AM
james jones reminded me slightly of reggie. granger doesn't remind me of anybody but i wouldnt trade him for any other rookie including paul. his work ethic is a little reggie-esque and thats pretty damn cool i love granger ya heard

Arcadian
03-18-2006, 03:07 AM
I want no part of a forward pairing of Granger and Peja. No matter who you put in the middle I like JO and Granger better. (I hope that David develops into that center but that is up to David.)

It's nothing against Peja. I just don't see him making us a Championship team in the immediate future or having a place as part of our future. He's a nice player but all I see is him taking away Danny's playing time and if signed to a big contract our flexiblity.

Evan_The_Dude
03-18-2006, 03:51 AM
Peck, do you think a Peja, Granger, JO frontcourt is big enough?

Do you think a Peja, Granger, Harrison frontcourt is talented enough?

Do I even have to ask about a Peja, Granger, Foster frontcourt? (I'll :puke: now.)

I'd rather have Granger at PF than SG right - when I see Danny I don't see a guard. And I'll swear that Peja looks to be the same size as Mullin to me. I know he's bigger, but he doesn't seem like it.

Defensively it's hard to imagine, especially against the Heat [Shaq]. Offensively it's genious to play O'Neal at C, with Granger at PF, and Peja at SF. Then again, if Granger bulks up just a bit (doesn't have to much), he could be an absolutely legitimate pf.

However, I think Peja at the 2 and Granger at the 3 is a lot less risky than Granger at the 4 and Peja at the 3. This way J.O. doesn't play out of position, Granger plays his natural position, and Peja can continue playing how he already plays... plus we'd get more rebounding out of the 2 position as well. Peja would also cause matchup nightmares because at 6'10", he'd be the tallest 2 guard in the league. Defensively if there's an issue, we can always switch matchups... but remember that Peja has been a lot better on defense than we all expected.

I'm very confident in Granger at 3 and Peja at 2... as long as we have enough training camp to work on it. Regardless of the decision, Granger is in no Al Harrington position [getting starters minutes off the bench]. He's ready NOW. When he get's starters minutes, he's productive beyond belief - and he's just a rookie. I think most would agree that it would be foolish not to make sure he's in the starting lineup next season.

Fireball Kid
03-18-2006, 04:13 AM
Danny at SF and Peja at SG seems a bit more realistic to mean. Danny could just switch up to SG on defense when needed to.

bulletproof
03-18-2006, 04:23 AM
I could never figure out for the life of me though how they were beating us because they didn't have a center out there.

I mean I knew I would look up & see some form of stats for five guys but either Thomas or Rahim had to be playing center for them all night because I know as sure as I'm sitting here right now that their starting center had to be on the reserve list because I've been told that after the all-star break he never plays because he is injured.

I don't know who it was that was two rebounds & one assist shy of a triple double during the game.

Are you F'n kidding me??????:banghead: :banghead: :scream: :scream: :scream:

He d@mn near had a triple double.....

And there set Jermaine and there set Scot Pollard and there set the empty chair occupied by Jon Bender's spirit.

Here was this fluke of a player who wasn't worth the money we have paid to other lesser players almost by himself destroying us in the first half. Thank God in the second half he missed his shots, except he still stepped back & drilled a three on us.

Horrid Horrid Horrid trade. Even the "he's always injured" excuse holds no water now.

Not only was he scoring & passing & rebounding the guy completely shut off the lanes on us in the first half. He blocked two shots & altered several others, yet some think he can't play defense.

No, this is not a slam at Jeff Foster. Jeff fought as well as he could have but he is so one dimensional it's not even funny. Brad is a center Jeff is a power forward & it showed. Yes, Jeff got more boards. Yipee, Bonzi got more than Jeff does that make Wells a better rebounder? Jeff played fairly well though but he had problems on defense with Brad. Brad got whater shot he wanted but in the second half they just were falling short.

Ok, I'll stop now. But before I quit let me just say :censored:

What a BS thing to say. Did the team with Brad Miller on it win tonight? No. Did the team without Brad Miller Miller on it win tonight? Yes.

Alabama-Redneck
03-18-2006, 07:45 AM
Peck, I usually find your posts very informative but will you EVER let the Brad Miller, Dale Davis and especially Ron Artest thing die????

You have ruined another good post by your complete re-living and reduntant posting of your dislike for the trades and Ron.

Please let it go. Come back to reality---it's over. I think we all know how you feel and have for the last 3 years.

Nothing personal, just an observation.

:cool:

owl
03-18-2006, 08:27 AM
Peck, personally I think all the subjects you broached tonight, especially on the players, considering who we played was appropriate.
As far as Ron I am glad that he is gone. He did so many things last night that
were a poignant reminder of the problems he causes. What is up with him
bringing the ball up court? It serves no purpose except to appease his
gigantic ego and it does not help his neurosis. Ron did several little things
that just were unneccesary. More than once he swatted the ball excessively
and once sent it 30 rows up into the crowd. The fan threw the ball onto the
court and it hit Ron in the leg. If that was intentional then it was pure luck
it hit Ron. I believe it was providence that it hit Ron and was a little catharsis
for the fans after all that Ron drug them through. Overall a very fulfilling
game.


owl

D-BONE
03-18-2006, 09:38 AM
Uh-oh. The dreaded Peja/Granger issue again! This is a very serious decision for us heading into the off-season.

I'll ask again: Could it really work with Peja and DG chasing around the opposing 2? I tend to think not. Is there any chance we could see them experiment with this soon? That would make me feel better about making a decision.

I like Peja a lot and his shooting adds a dimension to the team that's been missing. I like DG even more and, like everybody else, want him to get more minutes ASAP. So the first thing that occurs to me if the Peja/DG at SG doesn't materialize is bye-bye Peja.

There are two other possibilities that come to my mind. Foster and DH basically man the C and DG is top back-up for both 3 and 4, thus adding time that way. Don't know how well that would work.

Second, re-sign Peja, Granger gets a bit bigger a la Ev eezy's suggestion, and we hand him the keys to PF and trade JO for some guards and/or a solid C.

Any other theories out there?

MagicRat
03-18-2006, 09:44 AM
How disappointing.

I win ice cream for my entire row, get on the big screen with the kids, DJ Paul B mis-pronounces my name for the entire arena and I'm not even an odd thought.........:cry:

Unclebuck
03-18-2006, 10:12 AM
Peck, I just want to say one thing about the first half of your post. You know the part about Ron and Brad. Oh there are many things I could say, but I don't see any reason to drudge up old arguments. I will say the only reason Jeff had any problems defending Brad is because Jeff had to help in the low post on Ron, Bonzi, Rahim, and Jeff had to help on Bibby especially in the second half. So Jeff has to help a ton and still get back to Brad, I thought Jeff did a great, great job.

Pacerized
03-18-2006, 10:25 AM
Good post, but how can you say anything remotely negative about Foster. Win, or lose Foster has played his butt off for the past 12 games. His effort hasn't waivered, and his energy has carried the team on a few of those games. He showed last night why he needs to remain our starting center when J.O. returns. Neither Pollard, nor Harrison are close to Foster right now. I'll agree that he is more of a true 4, but I don't care, he's still the best center on this team.

Moses
03-18-2006, 10:34 AM
I want no part of a forward pairing of Granger and Peja. No matter who you put in the middle I like JO and Granger better. (I hope that David develops into that center but that is up to David.)

It's nothing against Peja. I just don't see him making us a Championship team in the immediate future or having a place as part of our future. He's a nice player but all I see is him taking away Danny's playing time and if signed to a big contract our flexiblity.
And you base this off of...absolutely nothing.

Not sure how Peja doesn't make us a championship team..Care to elaborate? I mean, surely you need good shooters on your team if you want to win in the playoffs..And Peja is certainly a better outside shooter then Granger.

Unclebuck
03-18-2006, 10:36 AM
I'm getting a little tired of Harrison's act. It is bad enough to get technicals. Some players get T's and it fires them up (see Sheed) but with Harrison, whenever he get a "T" he has to be taken out of the game and often in a very ugly manner. He hurts the team a lot more than just giving up one point. His constant offensive fouls for no good reason is also hurting the team. Certainly he's made some progress, but if I were a coach I wouldn't trust him in a pressure situation at all.

I said when Granger was drafted he'll play a lot of power forward. See the NBA has changed from the mid 90's, the power forwards aren't really "power" forwards anymore. They are athletic quick tall players. Can you name me a "Power" forward. So I think DG can play power forward as much or more than small forward.

D-BONE
03-18-2006, 10:56 AM
I'm getting a little tired of Harrison's act. It is bad enough to get technicals. Some players get T's and it fires them up (see Sheed) but with Harrison, whenever he get a "T" he has to be taken out of the game and often in a very ugly manner. He hurts the team a lot more than just giving up one point. His constant offensive fouls for no good reason is also hurting the team. Certainly he's made some progress, but if I were a coach I wouldn't trust him in a pressure situation at all.

I said when Granger was drafted he'll play a lot of power forward. See the NBA has changed from the mid 90's, the power forwards aren't really "power" forwards anymore. They are athletic quick tall players, quick name me a "power" forward. So I think DG can play power forward as much or more than small forward.

Some good stuff here. Makes me think we could dangle DH and mabye somebody else. He's got value. Then we really go all out on the up-tempo/motion offense and essentially let JO man the middle.

Back to Jay's proposed frontlines, I think I could live w/ Peja-JO-Granger or even Peja-Foster-Granger. As long as Granger is a major variable in any equation.

Who knows what will go down the rest of the year and then this summer? I'd just like to find a way to utilize both Peja and Granger long-term without having either playing significant minutes at the 2.

Eindar
03-18-2006, 10:57 AM
I'm getting a little tired of Harrison's act. It is bad enough to get technicals. Some players get T's and it fires them up (see Sheed) but with Harrison, whenever he get a "T" he has to be taken out of the game and often in a very ugly manner. He hurts the team a lot more than just giving up one point. His constant offensive fouls for no good reason is also hurting the team. Certainly he's made some progress, but if I were a coach I wouldn't trust him in a pressure situation at all.

I said when Granger was drafted he'll play a lot of power forward. See the NBA has changed from the mid 90's, the power forwards aren't really "power" forwards anymore. They are athletic quick tall players, quick name me a "power" forward. So I think DG can play power forward as much or more than small forward.

It's true! I was just thinking about this tonight when Foster went over to "defend" Danny by confronting Bonzi. Where have all the enforcers gone? You know who I'm talking about: Dale Davis, Oakley, Kevin Willis, etc.

Seems like nobody in the league puts forth that kind of effort in the weight room anymore, and I, for one, kinda miss us having a guy that made guards think twice before going in for a layup. (Notice, I'm not talking about Ron, because when Ron "enforces" the lane, he usually almost kills someone, and comes away with a flagrant, ejection, and suspension. So, not a dirty player, just a tough big guy).

owl
03-18-2006, 11:00 AM
The attitudes of players can be very detrimental and some players never
get over it regardless of the penalty when they have outbursts. I would not
be adverse to trading Harrison to move up in the draft enough to get
Shelden Williams. He is not as big but he is a mentally stable player and is a
better shot blocker and rebounder than Harrison. Harrison was a good pick at
where he was picked but if he can be leveraged into what I think is something better they should. To win a title you need mentally tough players
with talent.


owl

Suaveness
03-18-2006, 11:22 AM
How disappointing.

I win ice cream for my entire row, get on the big screen with the kids, DJ Paul B mis-pronounces my name for the entire arena and I'm not even an odd thought.........:cry:

Who are you?

Ragnar
03-18-2006, 11:32 AM
The way I see it Harrison is great when he is in there fighting for rebounds and getting put backs and the occasional wide open dunk. He is not so great (ok bad) when he is trying to take set shots in the post. He is not Jermaine Oneal. We cant feed him in the post and let him go to work. Thats fine though because we dont need another Jermaine Oneal we already have one.

I think David plays best on the weak side. The pg's seem to be able to get him wide open slam dunks way more and his rebounding is far better from the weak side. Go back and watch game tape you will see David's best games have all come off the ball.

Unclebuck
03-18-2006, 11:40 AM
The way I see it Harrison is great when he is in there fighting for rebounds and getting put backs and the occasional wide open dunk. He is not so great (ok bad) when he is trying to take set shots in the post. He is not Jermaine Oneal. We cant feed him in the post and let him go to work. Thats fine though because we dont need another Jermaine Oneal we already have one.

I think David plays best on the weak side. The pg's seem to be able to get him wide open slam dunks way more and his rebounding is far better from the weak side. Go back and watch game tape you will see David's best games have all come off the ball.



I agree 1000%. Great point

Ralph Snart
03-18-2006, 11:43 AM
Did anyone catch that fan throwing the ball back onto the court, and it hitting Artest in the foot?

We all had a good laugh at that.

Ralph Snart
03-18-2006, 11:44 AM
The way I see it Harrison is great when he is in there fighting for rebounds and getting put backs and the occasional wide open dunk. He is not so great (ok bad) when he is trying to take set shots in the post. He is not Jermaine Oneal. We cant feed him in the post and let him go to work. Thats fine though because we dont need another Jermaine Oneal we already have one.

I think David plays best on the weak side. The pg's seem to be able to get him wide open slam dunks way more and his rebounding is far better from the weak side. Go back and watch game tape you will see David's best games have all come off the ball.

My biggest frustration with him last night was that he wasn't fighting for his own rebounds off his missed shots, he was too busy waiting for a call that never came.

Hicks
03-18-2006, 11:59 AM
What a BS thing to say. Did the team with Brad Miller on it win tonight? No. Did the team without Brad Miller Miller on it win tonight? Yes.

What BS logic. I guess we couldn't use Kobe Bryant at the 2 because we beat LA when they were in town.

Hicks
03-18-2006, 12:14 PM
No, we could, because Kobe is healthy and able to play in the playoffs

So this is how it's going to be? Peck or I make a point, and either you or bullet or someone else has to whip out one of your canned, cheap, retorts? No thank you.

Unclebuck
03-18-2006, 12:20 PM
I look for teams to start defending Granger a little differently. Remember the first two months he couldn't hit any outside shots at all. So teams just let him be all alone outside of 15 feet, but now they will start getting to him much quicker. He won't get nearly as many open shots, but that should open things up for other players.

ChicagoJ
03-18-2006, 12:22 PM
Let's be clear, I want a Granger - JO - Harrison front court. I want all three at their natural posision.

If Peja and Tinsley are the guards, I guess I'm okay with that. I'd rather play Peja "out of position" at SG (in the Chris Mullin/ Reggie Miller role) than Danny "out of position" at either "2" or "4".

+ + + + + + + + +

UB, I just can't get my hands around your criticism of Harrison.

Sure, he has concentration issues. So did Reggie at the same age. It takes legit centers a while to get comfortable in the NBA and to get the respect they deserve from the officials (and in David's case, his coach, too.) He needs more time and patience to the point where he's consistently demonstrating the low-post brilliance and dazzling array of post most moves that he's already teased us with.

I wish he'd shut up and play, too. But even on his worst day, he never turns into the best player on the other team, as Stephen Jackson can do with regularity. And let's not kid ourselves, Granger and Tinsley were pretty damn good in the second half, but Ron Artest was certainly our best player during that stretch with the number of forced shots, blown possessions, and defensive lapses down the stretch.

David deserves some criticism, but let's not go overboard because even on his worst days, he is nowhere near the detriment that Mr. Cancer was or even Stephen Jackson during one of his turnover-prone, poor shooting, ***** at the officials games.

ChicagoJ
03-18-2006, 12:24 PM
I look for teams to start defending Granger a little differently. Remember the first two months he couldn't hit any outside shots at all. So teams just let him be all alone outside of 15 feet, but now they will start getting to him much quicker. He won't get nearly as many open shots, but that should open things up for other players.

That's the beauty of Granger's offensive versatility. I'm actually more comfortable with him passing in that situation than shooting jumpers.

But I won't complain about either.

Man, I love this kid's mental toughness. He gets knocked around and takes a cheap shot, and how does he respond?

He just takes over the game, becoming the best player on the court. Yet he does it in a way that doesn't seem overly-assertive. He just makes plays when the opportunity presents itself.

He's tough.

bulletproof
03-18-2006, 12:25 PM
So this is how it's going to be? Peck or I make a point, and either you or bullet or someone else has to whip out one of your canned, cheap, retorts? No thank you.

And yours are high-minded and original? Mine was a tongue-in-cheek way of saying "LET...IT...GO."

MagicRat
03-18-2006, 12:27 PM
Who are you?

Who am I?

Who am I?

24601!

Kegboy
03-18-2006, 12:35 PM
Peck, I could have sworn when David knocked Brad down two times straight that you'd fall in love with the guy.

As for Peja/Danny, I think Larry will make an honest effort to re-sign Peja, with the thought that Danny will become an Al-esque 6th man getting extensive time at the 3 and the 4. We still have another 3 years before Danny can even become a restricted FA, and by then I'd expect him to have supplanted a past-his-prime Peja in the lineup.

That said, we don't need to break the bank with Peja. I'm afraid Larry will do just that, but I'd rather Brad him or just let him go as opposed to let our salary sitch become untenable again, where we can't afford to re-sign David or Danny.

Hicks
03-18-2006, 12:43 PM
And yours are high-minded and original? Mine was a tongue-in-cheek way of saying "LET...IT...GO."

I was referring more to what va said, but it's something you've typed before, so I threw you in there. :flirt:

Mourning
03-18-2006, 01:02 PM
Only Usama Bin Laden would have recieved a worse reception & I'm not even sure of that.


:lol:


Regards,

Mourning :cool:

D-BONE
03-18-2006, 01:33 PM
If DH doesn't get it under control (which hopefully he will) he will be capable of being as detrimental as Jack is at times. No question the guy has tools, but he's been acting like a real punk lately.

Assuming opposing Ds take away Granger's open Js, not only will their be increased opportunities for others, I fully expect DG to demonstrate an ability to drive it to the hoop at times.

Suaveness
03-18-2006, 01:53 PM
That's the beauty of Granger's offensive versatility. I'm actually more comfortable with him passing in that situation than shooting jumpers.

But I won't complain about either.

Man, I love this kid's mental toughness. He gets knocked around and takes a cheap shot, and how does he respond?

He just takes over the game, becoming the best player on the court. Yet he does it in a way that doesn't seem overly-assertive. He just makes plays when the opportunity presents itself.

He's tough.

Granger has easily become my favorite player. He knows how to play. But where does that leave Peja? Do we resign him? I do enjoy his game as well, but then who do we start. I want JO to play PF, not center. And Peja is 6'10". Can he play SG? I don't think we can start Peja and Granger at the same time if JO plays PF, because who will guard the quick SG's? Unless we play JO at center, which I really do not like, one of them has to come off the bench. And I don't know if Peja would like that.

Peck
03-18-2006, 01:58 PM
Funny, nothing about my post was cheap, I was respoding to a comment you made.

Now if you want to accuse me of using "canned, cheap" retorts, I can easily call both what Peck wrote and what you what the same thing.

So no, no thank you...............

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Um, I never knew we had a problem. I've always enjoyed reading what you wrote, I'm sorry it's not mutual.

Peck
03-18-2006, 02:03 PM
What a BS thing to say. Did the team with Brad Miller on it win tonight? No. Did the team without Brad Miller Miller on it win tonight? Yes.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now were back to he's not that good of a player. I guess it is kind of hard to argue about the injury habit when he is leading the league in min. played for a center.

This should be amusing.

Ok, tell us now how he's not that great of a player because his team lost the game.

BTW, just for the record I wrote an entire post filled with other observations & this is what you commented on. Which one of us is fixated again?

Do you have any comments about what I said about Ron? Jeff? A.J.? Or are you just upset I didn't talk about Eddy Gill?;)

Go ahead, move that goal post cause this should be good.

Peck
03-18-2006, 02:07 PM
Peck, I usually find your posts very informative but will you EVER let the Brad Miller, Dale Davis and especially Ron Artest thing die????

You have ruined another good post by your complete re-living and reduntant posting of your dislike for the trades and Ron.

Please let it go. Come back to reality---it's over. I think we all know how you feel and have for the last 3 years.

Nothing personal, just an observation.

:cool:

Hi Alabama-Redneck, it's great to see you back.

I've missed your postings online, I hope you can post more often. It would be great if you could make it up for the next party for after Reggie's retirement game, any hopes that could happen?

As to reality? You know me, I walk in my own little world.;)

Hicks
03-18-2006, 02:21 PM
My point in that post was that in the same way people get tired of hearing about the "ex-girlfriend" you cant get over, or about the "car" you really wanted but your parents wouldnt buy you, I have gotten equally tired of hearing about Brad Miller. While its hard to beleive, I actually really enjoyed watching him play and enjoyed his time here as a Pacers. I just think we all need to move on, and you have been one (of many) to bring his name up in other posts, hence why I mentioned you in my post.

I think it's a combination of seeing him do so well and wishing we hadn't dropped the ball in Indiana (by not keeping him), and more importantly the section of NBA observers who try to honest to God convince us that the truth is he wasn't that good, we shouldn't want to have kept him, he's not worth it, etc, etc, that keeps us coming back.

McClintic Sphere
03-18-2006, 02:34 PM
Another great post, Peck. I was hoping someone would post a first person account of what the atmosphere was like in the fieldhouse vis-a-vis Ron. Karma's a *****.

Believe_in_blue
03-18-2006, 02:57 PM
Another great post, Peck. I was hoping someone would post a first person account of what the atmosphere was like in the fieldhouse vis-a-vis Ron. Karma's a *****.

It was one of the better regular season atompheres we have had here in years. It did quiet down a little when we started falling behind but once we started comeing back it really came alive. Alot of the crowd stood for a good portion of the fourth quarter and I think it was really a factor late in the game. The pregame boos were loud and it was cool to see him get booed every time he touched the ball. The one thing I can say for sure is that when the crowd is into the game like it was last night going to games is alot more fun. so I hope that as we make our playoff run we can get more sellouts and noisy pacers fans like we did last night.

Arcadian
03-18-2006, 03:00 PM
And you base this off of...absolutely nothing.

Not sure how Peja doesn't make us a championship team..Care to elaborate? I mean, surely you need good shooters on your team if you want to win in the playoffs..And Peja is certainly a better outside shooter then Granger.

I'm basing my opinion on the fact that the Pacers are nowhere near a Championship team now with him playing. I hardly see how that is such a wild opinion. If the arguement is that we need role players who can shoot that is a different arguement and Peja doesn't get paid role player money.

The question isn't is he good; he is. The question is will he be worth what it will take to sign him now in three years. My fear is that in 3 years we will have a 32 year old back-up SF with back problems who we can't move because he is getting paid 12 mil with 3 years left on his deal.

Anthem
03-18-2006, 03:05 PM
The question isn't is he good; he is. The question is will he be worth what it will take to sign him now in three years. My fear is that in 3 years we will have a 32 year old back-up SF with back problems who we can't move because he is getting paid 12 mil with 3 years left on his deal.
Yeah, this is my biggest worry as well. People say "Well when Granger is a RFA we can sign him and give him the starting spot." That's when Peja's deal will be the most expensive.

Mourning
03-18-2006, 03:12 PM
Yeah, this is my biggest worry as well. People say "Well when Granger is a RFA we can sign him and give him the starting spot." That's when Peja's deal will be the most expensive.

Could we frontload Peja's contract a little?

Bball
03-18-2006, 03:18 PM
I think it's a combination of seeing him do so well and wishing we hadn't dropped the ball in Indiana (by not keeping him), and more importantly the section of NBA observers who try to honest to God convince us that the truth is he wasn't that good, we shouldn't want to have kept him, he's not worth it, etc, etc, that keeps us coming back.

It doesn't help that the Pacers have had a history of overpaying players and keeping questionable talent around longer than they arguably should... or that other Pacer players have probably missed as many, if not more, games than Brad since he was 'traded'.

I can't imagine Tinsley hasn't missed more games. Lord knows Bender missed more games. I'm willing to bet a cookie JO has missed more games.

Yet Brad was shown the door because there were injury concerns versus the dollars the market said he was worth.

It seemed, and still seems, an odd place to draw a line in the sand for TPTB.

-BBall

D-BONE
03-18-2006, 03:19 PM
I'm basing my opinion on the fact that the Pacers are nowhere near a Championship team now with him playing. I hardly see how that is such a wild opinion. If the arguement is that we need role players who can shoot that is a different arguement and Peja doesn't get paid role player money.

The question isn't is he good; he is. The question is will he be worth what it will take to sign him now in three years. My fear is that in 3 years we will have a 32 year old back-up SF with back problems who we can't move because he is getting paid 12 mil with 3 years left on his deal.

Good points. The thing is there seems to be significant sentiment about keeping Peja while at the same time equally as much about making DG more of a focal point. There's no real consensus on how those two objectives can be made mutually beneficial other than the Peja at SG proposal, which sounds shaky to me.

Skaut_Ech
03-18-2006, 04:05 PM
As for Peja/Danny, I think Larry will make an honest effort to re-sign Peja, with the thought that Danny will become an Al-esque 6th man getting extensive time at the 3 and the 4. We still have another 3 years before Danny can even become a restricted FA, and by then I'd expect him to have supplanted a past-his-prime Peja in the lineup.



That's my thinking, too, KB. :tip:I think the most obvious comparision is McHale during the Celts title years or closer to home, like Detlef Schrempf for us in the early nineties: I complete player who's first off the bench for whom the offense can be run through. I honestly don't know why so much time is spent debating that it's either Peja or Danny, but not both. Like you said, in 3 years, maybe their positions reverse and Peja takes a role like Mullin/Eddie Johnson did as sharpshooter, spark off the bench and Danny starts. In the meantime, he can become leader of the second unit.

Suaveness, I don't see any problems here.


I'm basing my opinion on the fact that the Pacers are nowhere near a Championship team now with him playing. I hardly see how that is such a wild opinion. If the arguement is that we need role players who can shoot that is a different arguement and Peja doesn't get paid role player money.

The question isn't is he good; he is. The question is will he be worth what it will take to sign him now in three years. My fear is that in 3 years we will have a 32 year old back-up SF with back problems who we can't move because he is getting paid 12 mil with 3 years left on his deal.

From where I sit, how can you judge when Jermaine is out along with Pollard and Austin? :confused: I don't see how you can make any kind of accessment about us being nowhere near championship with Peja playing, if we don't even remotely have out key players in there.

That's like saying the same thing about the team when Smits and McKey were injured, years ago, and Reggie had to try and carry things. I think Reggie helped make us a championship team, but the result weren't much different that we're getting with Peja right now. :chin: Think abut it. You, quite simply, can't make any kind of even remote judgement with such key cogs not playing. Don't you think?

As to his back, I don't give it even scant thought. I really don't. I could be wrong, but going from memory, Peja doesn't have much of an injury history. That being said, I look at Pippen, who had back problems, but moved past them, or tangentially, Vince Carter, who's supposed to be so injury prone, yet has moved past it. I don't give Peja's past situation another thought.



Okay, as a parting shot, I'm going to say something that is going to **** some off, I'm sure.

David Harrison is quickly becoming our Olowokandi. You know, a guy with the bulk and tools, but quite honestly, not the head for the game. I've been saying all along that David will either turn into Olowokandi or a Dampier-like player. Every game, I'm getting more convinced it's the former. :uhoh: :sadyes:

Like Peck said, this guys needs a mentor...bad. Where are the Kevin Willises or Tank Thompson types? This worries me to no end. My mainly unsubstantiated fear is that David is going to go the way of Derrick Coleman, a talented player who let his head keep him from realizing his potential, then when he finally has it figured out, he no longer has the tools to actuate his wisdom. Guess we'll see, but I don't like the direction things appear to be going. :sigh:

bulletproof
03-18-2006, 04:20 PM
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now were back to he's not that good of a player. I guess it is kind of hard to argue about the injury habit when he is leading the league in min. played for a center.

This should be amusing.

Ok, tell us now how he's not that great of a player because his team lost the game.

BTW, just for the record I wrote an entire post filled with other observations & this is what you commented on. Which one of us is fixated again?

Do you have any comments about what I said about Ron? Jeff? A.J.? Or are you just upset I didn't talk about Eddy Gill?;)

Go ahead, move that goal post cause this should be good.

I never said he wasn't a good player. And that wasn't really my point. I was being sarcastic in the sense that you just can't let it go. That said, let's talk about your other thread about Ron where you pondered the idea that maybe we should have let JO walk instead of Brad and made Ron Mr. Franchise. Even you have to admit, we got a glimpse of what that experiment would have looked like last night: Ron and Brad and a good cast of supporting players and a pretty damn good coach. Now, you and I argued a lot about my assertion that we got further without Brad than we ever did when he was here and you would often (if I remember correctly) attribute that to Rick. Well, again, last night we got an idea of what that would have been like because Carlisle and Adelman are statistically comparable coaches (.625 vs .615 winning percentage and 28-28 vs 68-64 playoff records, respectively). Can you still say it was all about the coaching? Or are you going to have to move the goal post now? What was the difference, Peck? Management? Would Larry and Donnie have surrounded Ron and Brad with better players?

Bball
03-18-2006, 04:43 PM
I never said he wasn't a good player. And that wasn't really my point. I was being sarcastic in the sense that you just can't let it go. That said, let's talk about your other thread about Ron where you pondered the idea that maybe we should have let JO walk instead of Brad and made Ron Mr. Franchise. Even you have to admit, we got a glimpse of what that experiment would have looked like last night: Ron and Brad and a good cast of supporting players and a pretty damn good coach. Now, you and I argued a lot about my assertion that we got further without Brad than we ever did when he was here and you would often (if I remember correctly) attribute that to Rick. Well, again, last night we got an idea of what that would have been like because Carlisle and Adelman are statistically comparable coaches (.625 vs .615 winning percentage and 28-28 vs 68-64 playoff records, respectively). Can you still say it was all about the coaching? Or are you going to have to move the goal post now? What was the difference, Peck? Management? Would Larry and Donnie have surrounded Ron and Brad with better players?


Don't get too sidetracked on a hypothetical. I don't think Peck ever stated he was for the idea of making it Artest's team and keeping BMiller instead of JO. He just threw it out there for discussion. Altho he can speak for himself, the more realistic question for many Pacer fans (or me) is how we could/would have fared if we'd let Bender walk and saved the money for Brad (or bit the bullet and signed Brad and Bender) and had Brad on the same team as JO. (Obviously in hindsight not extending Bender and letting him walk that summer would've been the proper move regardless of which side of the debate someone was on at the time).

The great unkown is how that team would've done with Rick coaching them.

JO
Artest
Miller
Tinsley
RMiller

Harrington as 6th man
Foster
Croshere
AJ


What happens if THAT team stands pat at the trading deadline in 03/04? Would the Rasheed move been enough for the Pistons to leapfrog the Pacers as it turned out to be?

-Bball

waxman
03-18-2006, 04:55 PM
Granger has easily become my favorite player. He knows how to play. But where does that leave Peja? Do we resign him? I do enjoy his game as well, but then who do we start. I want JO to play PF, not center. And Peja is 6'10". Can he play SG? I don't think we can start Peja and Granger at the same time if JO plays PF, because who will guard the quick SG's? Unless we play JO at center, which I really do not like, one of them has to come off the bench. And I don't know if Peja would like that.


The only SG i'm concerned that Danny may have problems with, is someone like a Rip Hamilton.... or someone that runs around a ton of tightly spaced screens like that.

He can contain the one on one type players,,, he held his own with Kobe.... when he had the chance to guard him. You could see Kobe get frustrated with him.... that "inadvertant" elbow that knocked DG's tooth back was surely telling.

I thought he matched up well with LeBron. And he's a point-shooting- power guard/forward... all wrapped up in one player.

Los Angeles
03-18-2006, 05:02 PM
Don't get too sidetracked on a hypothetical. I don't think Peck ever stated he was for the idea of making it Artest's team and keeping BMiller instead of JO. He just threw it out there for discussion. Altho he can speak for himself, the more realistic question for many Pacer fans (or me) is how we could/would have fared if we'd let Bender walk and saved the money for Brad (or bit the bullet and signed Brad and Bender) and had Brad on the same team as JO. (Obviously in hindsight not extending Bender and letting him walk that summer would've been the proper move regardless of which side of the debate someone was on at the time).

The great unkown is how that team would've done with Rick coaching them.

JO
Artest
Miller
Tinsley
RMiller

Harrington as 6th man
Foster
Croshere
AJ


What happens if THAT team stands pat at the trading deadline in 03/04? Would the Rasheed move been enough for the Pistons to leapfrog the Pacers as it turned out to be?

-Bball
Interesting hypothesis. The team's failure in the playoffs that year had nothing to do with Brad Miller.

Nor did the brawl the year following.

Nor the injuries for 2 straight years.

Nor the trade demand.

Brad Miller is not a magic wand - his inclusion doesn't suddenly fix things.

Bball
03-18-2006, 05:10 PM
Interesting hypothesis. The team's failure in the playoffs that year had nothing to do with Brad Miller.

Nor did the brawl the year following.

Nor the injuries for 2 straight years.

Nor the trade demand.

Brad Miller is not a magic wand - his inclusion doesn't suddenly fix things.

If we want to venture off into super-hypothetical territory then what does BMiller's inclusion with that group do to the team's (seeming) reluctance to part with Artest? Would we have felt more comfortable moving Artest prior to 11/19 if we'd had BMiller and JO on the team together at that point?

That is ASSuming that TPTB were always working under the umbrella that they couldn't fully trust Artest....

I believe Artest was important to JO. Probably more important than JO ever realized or would want to admit. But couldn't BMiller serve the same purpose in making things easier for JO?

Has this discussion really turned pointless now or is it interesting? Hmmmmm....


-Bball

Mr.ThunderMakeR
03-18-2006, 05:12 PM
I have to agree with Waxman, from what Ive seen Granger is a pretty damn good perimeter defender so I dont see why him and Peja couldnt switch positions between 2 and 3 on each end of the floor. Its deffinitely worth experimenting with at least. Hopefully JO will be back soon so we can finally find our true starting lineup.

And for those who think Foster is too much of a power forward to play center, how many true centers are there left in the league? Not too many I dont think. I think when JO comes back Foster should remain our starting center. This combination has worked well in the past and I dont see why it should change. That is until Hulk is ready to start.

Peck
03-18-2006, 05:16 PM
If we want to venture off into super-hypothetical territory then what does BMiller's inclusion with that group do to the team's (seeming) reluctance to part with Artest? Would we have felt more comfortable moving Artest prior to 11/19 if we'd had BMiller and JO on the team together at that point?

That is ASSuming that TPTB were always working under the umbrella that they couldn't fully trust Artest....

I believe Artest was important to JO. Probably more important than JO ever realized or would want to admit. But couldn't BMiller serve the same purpose in making things easier for JO?

Has this discussion really turned pointless now or is it interesting? Hmmmmm....


-Bball

I disagree with that statement. J.O. made it very clear that he wanted a center to play down low with him after Brad was traded, he never once said a thing about that when Brad was here. Remember him trying to recruit Eric Dampier to play here after Brad left? Remember him saying he wanted a big man down low after Brad left?

I think J.O. knew very well what Brad Miller meant to him.

VF21
03-18-2006, 05:22 PM
I wasn't sure which thread to post this in, so I figured here would be as good as anywhere.

Congratulations on a GOOD game! I didn't get to see it because of a power outage, but I did listen on the radio. My only real beef is that our own Kings substitute radio commentator is not very good at his job. ;)

I had mixed feelings. I did want my Kings to win, of course, but I have Granger in two fantasy leagues. :D

Good luck in the rest of your season. I'm glad Peja is happy. They interviewed him after the game and he sounded like the old Peja, the one we knew before all the stuff with Webber, Vlade, the trade "request," etc.

bulletproof
03-18-2006, 05:23 PM
Would we have felt more comfortable moving Artest prior to 11/19 if we'd had BMiller and JO on the team together at that point?
Um, remember, they did try to move Ron after the ECFs. Two offers to the Kings for Peja and he was part of the package offered to Orlando for McGrady.



Don't get too sidetracked on a hypothetical. I don't think Peck ever stated he was for the idea of making it Artest's team and keeping BMiller instead of JO. He just threw it out there for discussion.
Exactly. That's what we're doing. Discussing it. And I know he backed off of it, but it's still an interesting thought and we are kind of seeing that hypothetical scenario being played out in Sacramento.

Unclebuck
03-18-2006, 05:30 PM
I disagree with that statement. J.O. made it very clear that he wanted a center to play down low with him after Brad was traded, he never once said a thing about that when Brad was here. Remember him trying to recruit Eric Dampier to play here after Brad left? Remember him saying he wanted a big man down low after Brad left?

I think J.O. knew very well what Brad Miller meant to him.



I already regret what I'm about to post. Why then was J.O not upset at all when Brad was traded, in fact he seemed almost happy about it/ I vividly remember watching a TV interview from a summer league game the day after Brad was traded, and I expected J.O to be a little mad, depressed or something, but he seemed to me to be happy or at least OK Brad was traded.

Bball
03-18-2006, 05:31 PM
I disagree with that statement. J.O. made it very clear that he wanted a center to play down low with him after Brad was traded, he never once said a thing about that when Brad was here. Remember him trying to recruit Eric Dampier to play here after Brad left? Remember him saying he wanted a big man down low after Brad left?

I think J.O. knew very well what Brad Miller meant to him.

I never said JO didn't believe BMiller/center was important to him... I said he never realized Artest's importance to him. That doesn't mean Artest wasn't going to be a problem... it just means JO needs someone to compliment him in this offense.... and I was saying BMiller could've been that person and that could've negated the need to keep Artest (or TPTB's reluctance to move him). IOW, we put all of our eggs into the wrong basket in a couple of ways (by trading BMiller we made Artest even more important, and by signing Bender we removed the 'luxury' (or margin of error) of paying BMiller the market value (which some would say paying him that was a gamble... as if Bender wasn't a huge gamble)).

-BBall

Peck
03-18-2006, 05:32 PM
I never said he wasn't a good player. And that wasn't really my point. I was being sarcastic in the sense that you just can't let it go. That said, let's talk about your other thread about Ron where you pondered the idea that maybe we should have let JO walk instead of Brad and made Ron Mr. Franchise. Even you have to admit, we got a glimpse of what that experiment would have looked like last night: Ron and Brad and a good cast of supporting players and a pretty damn good coach. Now, you and I argued a lot about my assertion that we got further without Brad than we ever did when he was here and you would often (if I remember correctly) attribute that to Rick. Well, again, last night we got an idea of what that would have been like because Carlisle and Adelman are statistically comparable coaches (.625 vs .615 winning percentage and 28-28 vs 68-64 playoff records, respectively). Can you still say it was all about the coaching? Or are you going to have to move the goal post now? What was the difference, Peck? Management? Would Larry and Donnie have surrounded Ron and Brad with better players?

Are you seriously trying to tell me that I wanted Ron to be the star? Me?????

I was asking a hypothetical question for everyone else to answer just to see if anybody thought that way. Uncer no circumstance could I see myself rooting for Ron Artest even if Brad stayed because I cannot stand how much he controls the ball.

Why are we even having this debate anyway? I actually have an answer to that question btw if you care to hear it, well even if you don't here goes.

We are having this debate because over the past three seasons you have emphatically claimed that the main reason Brad was traded was because he was injury prone & never lasted past the all-star break.

Well here it is the middle of march and look here at # 32 in the entire NBA in min. played, why My God it's Brad Miller. How can this be?

Looking further, GASP, Brad leads all centers in the NBA in min. played for the season. My entire world view has been shattered.

On top of that Brad has played 62 games this season so far.

BTW, you have me confused with Uncle Buck as saying that the entire reason we improved the following season was because of Rick Carlisle. I give Rick a boatload of credit but I think it had a lot to do with other issues as well. But never forget I am the one person who was the least impressed with the 61 win season, I have always believed it was a mirage. See my cotton candy metaphor.

You ask me to drop it & I'll say fine, I will when you will.

You admit it was a mistake & I'll never bring it up again. Fair enough?

But my guess is you can't admit it was a mistake. Like I said before the Kings could win the title with Brad Miller winning the MVP of the season & holding the playoff MVP above his head & you would still claim that Walsh/Bird whoever made the right move.

Look again at how close this guy was to a triple double & tell me we couldn't use some of that on our team.

Bball
03-18-2006, 05:33 PM
I already regret what I'm about to post. Why then was J.O not upset at all when Brad was traded, in fact he seemed almost happy about it/ I vividly remember watching a TV interview from a summer league game the day after Brad was traded, and I expected J.O to be a little mad, depressed or something, but he seemed to me to be happy or at least OK Brad was traded.

He had just filled his wallet and wheelbarrow with Pacer cash and had that to cushion the blow. :-p

-Bball

Kegboy
03-18-2006, 05:36 PM
This Brad fiasco is tearing the board apart. Everybody needs to hold hands and sing Kumbaya, or at least go create a sub-board and leave the rest of us alone.

:tongueincheek:

Bball
03-18-2006, 05:36 PM
Um, remember, they did try to move Ron after the ECFs. Two offers to the Kings for Peja and he was part of the package offered to Orlando for McGrady.

That sort of misses the point I was trying to make...
Of course there were names we'd trade Artest for. My point was that maybe that list of names could've been longer if they'd felt more comfortable about JO's remaining supporting cast sans Artest.




Exactly. That's what we're doing. Discussing it. And I know he backed off of it, but it's still an interesting thought and we are kind of seeing that hypothetical scenario being played out in Sacramento.

Well, do we judge it on one game against the Pacers or the totallity of the Kings' season thus far?

-BBall

Peck
03-18-2006, 05:40 PM
I already regret what I'm about to post. Why then was J.O not upset at all when Brad was traded, in fact he seemed almost happy about it/ I vividly remember watching a TV interview from a summer league game the day after Brad was traded, and I expected J.O to be a little mad, depressed or something, but he seemed to me to be happy or at least OK Brad was traded.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Every interview I saw with J.O. about the deal was more along the lines that he understood from a money standpoint but wanted to be sure the pacers brought in somebody to help in the post.

Of course he understood from a money standpoint because he took all of our money.

For every year since he has been begging for a center to help him down low.

bulletproof
03-18-2006, 05:49 PM
You ask me to drop it & I'll say fine, I will when you will.

You admit it was a mistake & I'll never bring it up again. Fair enough?

But my guess is you can't admit it was a mistake. Like I said before the Kings could win the title with Brad Miller winning the MVP of the season & holding the playoff MVP above his head & you would still claim that Walsh/Bird whoever made the right move.

This is too good. This from the guy who said that if we made it to the ECFs without Brad you would never bring it up again. And it's funny to me that you're going to hold up this one season (out of three) as evidence that Brad is an iron man. Well, my friend, statistically, you're wrong.

grace
03-18-2006, 06:05 PM
This Brad fiasco is tearing the board apart. Everybody needs to hold hands and sing Kumbaya, or at least go create a sub-board and leave the rest of us alone.

:tongueincheek:

Forget Kumbaya. They're beyond that. What they really need is industrial strength Midol. And cookies. Nothing helps mood swings like a good chocolate chip cookie! :chillpill :cookie:


:1oscar: Your welcome.

VF21
03-18-2006, 06:12 PM
Might I suggest some Ben & Jerry's Chunky Monkey to go with those cookies?

Los Angeles
03-18-2006, 06:23 PM
Might I suggest some Ben & Jerry's Funky Monkey to go with those cookies?
Chunky monkey? yes.

Funky monkey? :puke:

Peck
03-18-2006, 06:28 PM
Brad Miller has played in 83% of the games he's been a king.

Now start listing Pacers who have done the same over the same time frame. There are a couple but they are few.

So while I would never call him an iron man I will say that he is no more injury prone than players on our team.

I don't even know I bother debating this with you because people higher than both of us & gasp yes even higher than Walsh have made the final comment.

Two time all-star & now Olympian.

What else is there to say?

I leave you with showers of hugs & kisses & some dancing fruit.

:mango: :cucumber: :carrot: :pineapple

Oh and one last thing.


http://images.allposters.com/images/PHO/AAEL039.jpg

Not to be outdone by.

http://imagesource.allposters.com/images/PHO/AAGJ022.jpg

Have a nice day.:)

VF21
03-18-2006, 06:30 PM
Chunky monkey? yes.

Funky monkey? :puke:

Oops.

Fixed...

;)

Los Angeles
03-18-2006, 06:44 PM
This is too good. This from the guy who said that if we made it to the ECFs without Brad you would never bring it up again. And it's funny to me that you're going to hold up this one season (out of three) as evidence that Brad is an iron man. Well, my friend, statistically, you're wrong.
The point here is that he was traded for someone who wasn't an iron man either, and also had many indicators that he wouldn't be. The "traded due to doubts about durability" argument may be an accurate description in terms of an actual motivation, in fact I believe you when you say so. The problem is that there is no way that it was the ONLY consideration. If it WAS the only consideration, why trade for a guy with a bad back? It doesn't hold up.

What DOES hold up? Contract duration and total worth in RELATION to injury history. If pollard didn't work out, then there was a clearly defined 'out' after only 3 years. If Brad Miller didn't work out, we would have been stuck with him for a lot longer.

Arguing that the Miller/Pollard move was a mistake is kind of pointless considering the fact that the trade was a conservative, "risk control" move made in order to balance the risky Bender move. If both risks were taken AND BOTH FAILED, it would have been a disaster with farther-reaching consequences.

So - in summary:

- Knowing then what I know now, I would have kept Brad Miller. (i.e. it could be considered a mistake)
- BUT - not knowing what would happen, and having just given Bender a huge contract, the Miller/Pollard move was the only move with a built-in parachute.

Peck
03-18-2006, 06:49 PM
I wasn't sure which thread to post this in, so I figured here would be as good as anywhere.

Congratulations on a GOOD game! I didn't get to see it because of a power outage, but I did listen on the radio. My only real beef is that our own Kings substitute radio commentator is not very good at his job. ;)

I had mixed feelings. I did want my Kings to win, of course, but I have Granger in two fantasy leagues. :D

Good luck in the rest of your season. I'm glad Peja is happy. They interviewed him after the game and he sounded like the old Peja, the one we knew before all the stuff with Webber, Vlade, the trade "request," etc.

Peja has been better than I ever dreamed he would be. I'll be honest with you I did not want him in trade but that is because I was obviously ignorant about the mans ability to ball.

He is better at everything than I though he would be including shooting, which I thought he would be good at.

I honestly don't wish any ill will on your team but I do fear that with Ron you will learn what many of us learned some time ago.

Ron Artest is the one true ring from J.R.R. Tolkens books. Filled with ultimate power yet corrupts the wearer.

Why our own Uncle Buck started out looking like this.


http://hotmencentral.com/fabio/_fabio3.jpg


But by the time Ron was finally traded he looked like this.

http://www.luisprada.com/Protected/IMAGES/gollum1.jpg

PacerMan
03-18-2006, 07:07 PM
Class shows. So does anger managment, or lack there of.

The latter really worries me about David.

Anger management can be taught. And learned.
Many learn it as a normal consequence of growing up.
He's a big kid.

Kegboy
03-18-2006, 07:24 PM
Oh, god, somebody delete Peck's last post before Rat gets a hold of it! :shudder:

Pacerized
03-18-2006, 07:50 PM
Let's be clear, I want a Granger - JO - Harrison front court. I want all three at their natural posision.

If Peja and Tinsley are the guards, I guess I'm okay with that. I'd rather play Peja "out of position" at SG (in the Chris Mullin/ Reggie Miller role) than Danny "out of position" at either "2" or "4".
***** .

I want Granger to get minutes also, but overall Peja is still the better 3 then DG. I don't agree with giving players minutes to develop during games, they should earn it, and if it takes them longer to develop, so be it.
On Harrison, all I can say is if you put Harrison out there over Foster, we lose last night, and we would lose a lot more games this year. Foster is out best center right now, and I don't see Harrison taking that from him next year either. If he continues at the rate he's developed this year, then I could see him earning the starting spot after that.

ChicagoJ
03-18-2006, 08:15 PM
Earn it when?

They only have like twenty practices per season, they play so many games.

The old Bob-Knight "you earn you game minutes during practice" theory may work in high school and college, but not the pros.

ChicagoJ
03-18-2006, 08:16 PM
Wow. Peck just won "post of the year".

Hands down.

MagicRat's Three-peat on most humerous is in danger.

bulletproof
03-18-2006, 09:39 PM
Brad Miller has played in 83% of the games he's been a king.

Now start listing Pacers who have done the same over the same time frame. There are a couple but they are few.

So while I would never call him an iron man I will say that he is no more injury prone than players on our team.
One has nothing to do with the other. We're not talking about the durability of our players.



I don't even know I bother debating this with you because people higher than both of us & gasp yes even higher than Walsh have made the final comment.

Two time all-star & now Olympian.

What else is there to say?
That's like saying, "Since Julia Roberts won the Oscar for best actress she must really be the best actress." Silly.

Hicks
03-19-2006, 12:25 AM
bulletproof, I'd like to know your criteria for what makes a player a good player.

bulletproof
03-19-2006, 01:35 AM
What kind of question is that? I never said Brad wasn't a good player. Let me repeat that, since I already said it earlier in this thread and might as well say it a third time: I never said Brad wasn't a good player. Hey, let's go for a fourth. I never said Brad wasn't a good player. Got it? Good.

Hicks
03-19-2006, 01:53 AM
Then why waste your time typing up the end of your last response? It suggests you DO think he's not a good player.

Arcadian
03-19-2006, 05:16 AM
From where I sit, how can you judge when Jermaine is out along with Pollard and Austin? :confused: I don't see how you can make any kind of accessment about us being nowhere near championship with Peja playing, if we don't even remotely have out key players in there.

That's like saying the same thing about the team when Smits and McKey were injured, years ago, and Reggie had to try and carry things. I think Reggie helped make us a championship team, but the result weren't much different that we're getting with Peja right now. :chin: Think abut it. You, quite simply, can't make any kind of even remote judgement with such key cogs not playing. Don't you think?

As to his back, I don't give it even scant thought. I really don't. I could be wrong, but going from memory, Peja doesn't have much of an injury history. That being said, I look at Pippen, who had back problems, but moved past them, or tangentially, Vince Carter, who's supposed to be so injury prone, yet has moved past it. I don't give Peja's past situation another thought.


Of course I could be wrong but I still just don't see Peja and JO being enough to make us contenders. I'm a sunshine guy but if our players were wearing different jerseys I wouldn't look at that team, as put together now, as an elite team. A good one yes but not one you talk about having to go through in the playoffs.

As far as which one to pick this is a different NBA for the 80's and 90's. From a team aspect of course they could co-exist. From a finacial aspect under this collective bargining agreement it is hard to justify investing heavily on two players who play the same position.

Sure the back problems could be gone. I hope they are. But it is still a factor you have to consider. But even still it does not change the fact that Danny will be better than Peja in the future and it is hard to justify paying a sixth man an 8 figure salary.

I could be wrong on all accounts: we may be contenders with a healthy JO, Peja may be still the player he was in three years even better than Danny, and his salary may not strap us in future moves.

But really what I think is a moot point. Larry disagrees with me I'm sure.

bulletproof
03-19-2006, 06:53 AM
Then why waste your time typing up the end of your last response? It suggests you DO think he's not a good player.

I shouldn't even have to explain that.

Hicks
03-19-2006, 10:26 AM
I shouldn't even have to explain that.

I'd like to see you try.

MagicRat
03-19-2006, 10:47 AM
Deja vu.....

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5658

Hicks
03-19-2006, 11:11 AM
Deja vu.....

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5658

I'll be expecting you to do this in every new Ron Artest, Sarunas Jasikevicius, Does JO make us better?, Stephen Jackson sucks! Boo!, and Kegboy's not the best Kegboy thread.

Anthem
03-19-2006, 11:54 AM
I'll be expecting you to do this in every new . . . Kegboy's not the best Kegboy thread.
Man, it's been a while since we started one of those.

Maybe we're due.

bulletproof
03-19-2006, 02:28 PM
I'd like to see you try.

Since Peck likes to use pictures and awards to make his point, I guess this serves as proof that we shouldn't have traded Ron:


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/20/xinsrc_5f4e4940a3a249ce8e15b8829ff0de4c_a.jpg

Los Angeles
03-19-2006, 02:30 PM
Since Peck likes to use pictures and awards to make his point, I guess this serves as proof that we shouldn't have traded Ron:


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/20/xinsrc_5f4e4940a3a249ce8e15b8829ff0de4c_a.jpg
Don't make me cry.

:sad:

Hicks
03-19-2006, 02:32 PM
When Brad has the laundry list of off-court issues Ron does, please let me know. And if you're planning on saying he does, spare me the lie.

bulletproof
03-19-2006, 02:34 PM
When Brad has the laundry list of off-court issues Ron does, please let me know. And if you're planning on saying he does, spare me the lie.

Oh, so you mean pictures and awards don't tell the whole story?



Case... rested.

Hicks
03-19-2006, 02:41 PM
Oh, so you mean pictures and awards don't tell the whole story?

Case... rested.

Case rested? :laugh: You wasted this much time to make such a small point.

Brad is a good basketball player because anyone who knows the game can see it. No, he doesn't need titles like All-Star and Olympian to confirm anything. But it sure makes it easier than having to spell it out to the mis-informed.

bulletproof
03-19-2006, 02:58 PM
Case rested? :laugh: You wasted this much time to make such a small point.
I didn't waste any time. I made my point in two short sentences and one picture. I'm more surprised that I even had to do that.



Brad is a good basketball player because anyone who knows the game can see it. No, he doesn't need titles like All-Star and Olympian to confirm anything. But it sure makes it easier than having to spell it out to the mis-informed.
Are you saying I'm mis-informed?

pacerwaala
03-19-2006, 05:42 PM
Oh, so you mean pictures and awards don't tell the whole story?



Case... rested.

bullet

I have one question for you. Are you saying that we should not have signed Brad no matter what (i.e, if he agreed to less salary, etc) or are you saying that Brad's going rate was very high and so we should not have signed him at that high salary.

bulletproof
03-19-2006, 06:29 PM
bullet

I have one question for you. Are you saying that we should not have signed Brad no matter what (i.e, if he agreed to less salary, etc) or are you saying that Brad's going rate was very high and so we should not have signed him at that high salary.

Neither (and I'm not falling for that). I was responding to Peck's use of pictures to try and somehow prove his point, and I merely said pictures and awards don't prove anything or tell the whole story. If they did, we most certainly should have kept Ron. There are always extenuating circumstances and myriad factors when it comes to evaluating a player's ultimate worth to a particular team. And with the exception of a few players, it's a subjective call. Personally, I was never overly impressed with Brad—I felt like he lacked intensity and never really seemed to bring it when it mattered most—and nothing since his departure has made me reconsider how I feel about him as a player or leads me to believe that we made a colossal mistake in letting him go. Now that could very well change in the next 4 years as he plays out his contract.

Kegboy
03-19-2006, 08:28 PM
Man, it's been a while since we started one of those.

Maybe we're due.

Guys, I'm humiliated enough by my Tourney picks. Please don't put me through that again. Especially considering I don't have Foretaz to stick up for me anymore.

And I learned my lesson with last years awards. This year I'll just pull a William Sherman when the noms come out.

"If nominated I will not run; if elected I will not serve."

grace
03-19-2006, 08:51 PM
Guys, I'm humiliated enough by my Tourney picks.

It's not your fault. You've been a Big Ten guy your whole life. This year they :censored: and they took you down with them.

:console:

If that's not enough to make you feel better just remember who AJ's team beat in the tourney. :D

pacerwaala
03-19-2006, 09:49 PM
Neither (and I'm not falling for that). I was responding to Peck's use of pictures to try and somehow prove his point, and I merely said pictures and awards don't prove anything or tell the whole story. If they did, we most certainly should have kept Ron. There are always extenuating circumstances and myriad factors when it comes to evaluating a player's ultimate worth to a particular team. And with the exception of a few players, it's a subjective call. Personally, I was never overly impressed with Brad—I felt like he lacked intensity and never really seemed to bring it when it mattered most—and nothing since his departure has made me reconsider how I feel about him as a player or leads me to believe that we made a colossal mistake in letting him go. Now that could very well change in the next 4 years as he plays out his contract.


I agree that pictures don't prove everything.


On another topic, let me rephrase my question to you. What would you have done if you were Donnie or Larry when Brad's situation came up.

Personally, if I was in Donnie's or Larry's shoes I would have resigned Brad. Also, I will go one more step - IMHO I think we would have beaten Detroit in their championship season if we had Brad. Ofcourse, no body knows what would have happened but atleast us Brad Miller fans can atleast yearn, can;t we? (especially when he almost has a triple double)

Hicks
03-19-2006, 09:54 PM
Not that you were talking to me, but Brad would not have made that much of a difference, we still wouldnt have beaten Det.

That's as silly as if I were to proclaim we definitely would have won. He would have helped.

bulletproof
03-20-2006, 12:25 AM
Not that you were talking to me, but Brad would not have made that much of a difference, we still wouldnt have beaten Det.

Based on his playoff history, I don't see any indication that he would have made much of a difference in the ECFs. Besides, our biggest need in that series was in the backcourt and perimeter shooting.

Hicks
03-20-2006, 12:33 AM
Reggie Miller was still a Pacer in 04, wasn't he?

bulletproof
03-20-2006, 12:49 AM
Yeah, so? His shot wasn't effective and he was deferring a lot.

McClintic Sphere
03-20-2006, 12:23 PM
You say tomato, I say tomahto
You say tomato, I say tomahto
Tomato
Tomahto
Tomato
Tomahto
Let's call the whole thing off...

:whistle:

bulletproof
03-20-2006, 12:49 PM
Touché.