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Peck
03-17-2006, 01:16 AM
I've been fairly quiet on the entire Ron Artest thing since he was traded. I've done so out of respect of the guys who still liked Ron as a player & had to deal with the loss of him from the team.

I have made some comments on it, mostly right after the trade, but basically I've tried to steer clear of this.

I think enough time has passed now that we can honestly look & see where we are, where we were & maybe even where we are going.

First, let's get this out of the way. We've all said it before but it is worth repeating again.

Ron Artest is a phenominal basketball player. Top 20 player without question & I know it can be argued that he is a top 10 or higher player. But I'll just say he is in the top 20, you can decide from there where he fits.

I think a lot of us have moved on from him, some of us moved on a long time ago but some just recently let go. But there are still the holdouts & let's be honest they will never let go.

Before I go into this I will go ahead & make a bold prediction right up front.

I do NOT believe Ron Artest will go Ron Artest on the Kings this season, nor do I think he will go Ron Artest next season either. I caveat that by this, I do not believe we will see him do it on the floor. What he does off time may cause some problems but I think even those will be deminished.

Let me explain why.

Well, it's not that hard really. I can actually tell you why Ron will be like a savior to the Kings in just three words.

No Jermaine O'Neal.

That's right, no Jermaine O'Neal. Now before you want to throw me off of a bridge & before Jay comes on here to remind all of us how Ron acted in Chicago before there ever was a Jermaine O'Neal hear my theory.

Ron see's himself as a top gun & if you are gonna say that he is in the top 20 players as most of us agree it's hard to argue against him.

However with the Indiana Pacers for the past 5 seasons the heirchy went like this.

1. Jermaine O'Neal
1a. Reggie Miller

However Reggie always made sure to tell everybody who would listen that this was Jermaines team so IMO while Reggie was well liked & respected this hasn't been his team (other than in the minds of the fans) since the 00 team broke up.

In Chicago Ron had to play behind a player who was very similar to J.O. in Elton Brand.

Here is the problem with players like Brand & O'Neal. They depend on wing players to get the ball up the floor to them so they can get thier shots.

A player like Ron can do it all. He can play in the post but he is also very capable of going the length of the court with the ball & scoring if he wants.

J.O. can't do that.

At the end of it all I think Ron just thought he shouldn't have to play second fiddle to a player who he thought he was better than.

In Sacramento Ron is the King (pardon the pun). There is nobody on that team who is considered on the same level as Ron let alone somebody who he will have to play behind.

This is his chance. He was thrown onto a team who was out of the playoffs & told to do anything & everything in his power to turn it around.

So far he has done that & I'm saying he will continue to do that. He has a coach who puts the ball in his hands & he is allowed to pick & choose where the ball goes. He doesn't have to share the ball if he doesn't want to & so far he has been more than willing to do it.

Now how will Ron react if things don't go his way? I can't say for sure but I have a sneaky feeling that as long as he is top dog he won't feel that the team lost because he was shut out of the offense so I don't think they will have a repeat of what we had in Miami.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not going all soft on the guy. I'm just saying that between Carlisle's offense & Jermaine O'Neal being on the team I think the formula in Indiana was just not going to work.

Also for the record I cannot stand a player who has to dominate the ball as much as Ron does. I don't like it when he does it, when Jamaal does it or when Jackson or O'Neal does it. So the fact that supposedly Ron is often times bringing the ball up the floor for the Kings makes me ill, but that's just me.

Now let's jump ahead to part # 2

Well we might as well just go ahead & ask this right up front. I am asking you to put away your emotional response for a moment & remember this is me asking this so you all know I have no bias whatsoever for Ron Artest.

Should we have moved Jermaine O'Neal & kept Ron Artest? Wait wait wait before I am told to fornicate with myself let me explain.

I'm not talking about after Ron demanded a trade, by then it was to late. I'm asking if either last summer or the summer before when it should have been painfully apperant to TPTB that O'Neal & Artest could not survive on the same team if they shouldn't have chosen to get something for Jermaine then.

Now remember I'm just asking I'm not advocating that this is what they should have done.

I will give you all a scenario that I gave to Uncle Buck at Perkins when it was only 4 of us left & you tell me how you would respond.

How differant would things have turned out if the Pacers let J.O. walk, signed Brad Miller for a reasonable contract & maybe pulled in a good solid shooting guard with the money left over?

Before you just spit at the screen or fall over laughing I want you to think about it. How differant would the locker room have been, how differant would the team have been, how differant would Ron have been?

Now Jay is going to tell us that it would not have been differant at all & he may very well be right. But is it what you believe as well?

Again, I'm not advocating any of this I'm just asking.

Point # 3

Ok, now I will try & cover the where we were are & going part here.

Where we were was cotton candy, yes I'm going to disparage the 61 win season again so feel free to skip over this part.

I compare the Pacers over the past 3-4 years to Cotton Candy for a reason..

Cotton Candy: looks great, taste great but it will not sustain you or nourish your body in any way & in fact eating to much of it is very bad for you.

The Pacers over the past few years: Looks great, plays great but in no way will actually compete for any real title & in fact to much of it was self destructive & bad for it's fans.

Hick's told me that I should be happy about the way this has all gone down this season & you know what, he's right. I am happy, I am more happy than I have been since the 00 season. Let's just say that I think it's been good to have some cleansing of the team & not just from Ron. I don't weep over other players being gone either.

I look forward to the future & I believe that we now can really rebuild this team the way we should have if we were going to break up that old team.

I digress.

Where we were was a mirage an illusion. It was a group of individual masquerading as a team no focus, no unity & most cetainly no one goal. We had talent, we had potential but what we never had was IT. It being the one thing that seperates the champions from anybody else. We were nothing more than the 80's Bucks, Hawks or Cavs. Good teams that always won a lot of games but never were able to break free for whatever reason.

Where we are today? That's the thing. Nobody knows & I think this frustrates the fans more than anything. We have less talent on paper & with the boat load of injury's we have had we have had a lot less talent on paper. I can't say that this team has an identity right now. For awhile Foster & Pollard were setting the tone & the offense was free flowing with motion & screens & pick & rolls. For whatever reason that has seemed to fade away. Pollard with his body wearing down is understandable but the switch in offense is hard to swallow.

Also, there may still be some inner trouble on the team. We have to many point guards. This was a mistake I lay at the feet of Bird. I undertand he probably didn't trust Jamaal to make the season & that makes sense. But he should have either just moved Jamaal or he should have gotten a less talented guard who would be willing to play some of the two guard spot.

We still don't know what this team is going to look like in a month because of what J.O. will bring to the table.

Where are we going? This is rough. I don't know. When it was just Walsh running the show I could have told you like clockwork what to expect, but with LJB in the mix I have no idea. It's obvious to me though that he is not the greatest person to try & mix personality's on the floor. Not knowing that Saras did not want to play shooting guard at all is a major mistake IMO.

I could see us coming back next season with the same team & them giving us the "we had to many injurys to evaluate the team" line or I could see them firing Carlisle & keeping the team in tact saying it needed a new voice or I could see Carlisle staying a lot of player be gone including J.O.

Either way with Granger & Harrison here our future at least has glimmers of hope.

Now how does Ron fit into any of this part? Simple, we were an illusion because talent wise the guy is a beast but he created the locker room troubles that caused the team to fail. Not being here & forcing us to make a trade for a player who we have no idea how he will fit in with J.O. causes us to not understand what our team will be like in a month & finally because he is gone we can build our team over with players who may not be as good talent wise, but character wise hopefully they will be better & thus in the long term make us a better team.

I do want to remind you that while I am asking the questions about Ron & should he still have been here I am one of the few that wanted him gone for years. Both for stuff behind the scenes but also I was not a great fan of his style of play at times. So please don't confuse me with being a Ron fan, I'm just asking the questions.

In reality, I'm glad he is gone but I will say this as well. I hope that when this is all said & done he is not the only one gone for next season either.

Bball
03-17-2006, 01:41 AM
A quick interim thought crossed my mind as I read this and ponder your question(s)-

What if we made only one change:
Artest elevated to the #1 option.

If Artest thinks his game is better than JO's then I would be inclined to agree. This ignores the lockerroom and other Artestisms tho. Then again, I've yet to be convinced JO doesn't have his own issues there (just of a different kind). Could/would've JO accepted a 'demotion'? Would it have been worth it to try?

Sorry for adding more questions....

-Bball

Anthem
03-17-2006, 01:54 AM
Man, that's a good thread. Very good thread.

I don't have specific answers to your questions, Peck (and they're good questions!), but there was one thing that really stood out to me when the trade talk was roaring. I was saving it for that mea culpa thread that never came (maybe this weekend would be a good time). People were saying Ron was crazy because he wanted a bigger part in the offense, yet was willing to go to Cleveland and be second fiddle to LaBron. There's a very simple answer to that: Ron thinks LaBron's a better offensive player than he is. He doesn't feel the same way about JO.

Ok SoupIsGood is going to hurt me for saying this, but it's the truth: I think we should have made a play for Kevin Garnett. He's been available for the right price, and I think it's a price we could have paid. I think KG and Ron could have co-existed. I don't think JO and Ron could ever co-exist. There are a couple other players I'd have been willing to trade JO for, but not many. For the life of me, though, I'll never understand why we didn't try to get in on that action.

One thing I'll never understand about you, Peck: I'll never understand how you can write such long posts and make me read the whole thing. When most people write 8-page posts, I just skip them. It's all blah blah blah. But there's nothing but beef in what you write. I really respect that.

Dr. Goldfoot
03-17-2006, 01:59 AM
You spelled the words "too" and "different" wrong. If you're going write a novella...spell simple words correctly.

Dr. Goldfoot
03-17-2006, 02:04 AM
also it's spelled Lebron not L"a"bron.


If you're going to try to debate on a message board, use the technology at your fingertips and spell **** right.

Kstat
03-17-2006, 02:18 AM
Damn anthem, he really burned you....

The dreaded "spelling nazi" tactic....can anthem get off the mat before being counted out? Only time will tell.

Jose Slaughter
03-17-2006, 03:21 AM
I don't think it came down to Ron or Jermaine. I think it came down to Ron or Rick.

I see it as Artest having a bigger problem with the style of play that Carlise was running & to a lesser degree, Jacksons role in that offense.

Artest is aware of the talent that O'Neal has & although Artest might be a better player, he knows this team goes nowhere without O'Neal being a major part of its success.

I doubt he felt the same for Jackson & his "option 2A" role on the team.

Couple his feeling for Jackson & his distaste for what Carlise was running & there was little chance he would be happy here.

It came down to either Carlise reworks the offense with Jackson getting a much smaller role, Carlise leaving or Artest leaving.

Artest knew Bird was gonna back his coach, he would have had to. That means Artest is out. Better for him, better for us.

Jose Slaughter
03-17-2006, 03:23 AM
Damn anthem, he really burned you....

The dreaded "spelling nazi" tactic....can anthem get off the mat before being counted out? Only time will tell.

Considering Anthems profession maybe he should be looking to hire the Dr.

Chauncey
03-17-2006, 07:01 AM
also it's spelled Lebron not L"a"bron.


If you're going to try to debate on a message board, use the technology at your fingertips and spell **** right.

Sentences begin with capital letters. Please try to follow all rules of grammar, not just the 2-3 words you remember how to spell.

Thanks.

RWB
03-17-2006, 07:54 AM
Should we have moved Jermaine O'Neal & kept Ron Artest? Wait wait wait before I am told to fornicate with myself let me explain.

I'm not talking about after Ron demanded a trade, by then it was to late. I'm asking if either last summer or the summer before when it should have been painfully apperant to TPTB that O'Neal & Artest could not survive on the same team if they shouldn't have chosen to get something for Jermaine then.



Yes, I would have been in favor of moving Jermaine before Artest if we're talking two years ago. Simply because I do believe Ron's talent is in the top 10 because of his complete game.

I've never been a believer that Jermaine is the Max guy we've payed for. I'm not saying I don't like him, shoot he's been a great spokesman for the Ps and the face of the franchise. I still can't get over (maybe only my bad perception) that JO is lazy at times. Maybe it's just lack of fundamentals like boxing out and agressively going after rebounds. I know someone can throw out stats where JO gets 10 rebounds a game, but he could grab so many more.

Sorry, didn't mean for this to get into a Jermaine debate.

Bottom line is Artest (though I suspect there are others) absolutely tore this team apart. I will continue to hope he does well, but still believe his off court interests (music biz) at some point will interfere with his basketball career.

McClintic Sphere
03-17-2006, 07:56 AM
Chauncey? The Chauncey? Good post Peck.

heywoode
03-17-2006, 08:05 AM
In hindsight, I would be in favor of keeping Ron over JO a few years ago if other things had happened too. Keeping Brad Miller wouls've been a good start to that. Exploring who all was available at that time will probably only make me sad though!

You raise very good points, peck, regardless of spelling.

I like reading your posts and love what you bring to the table. If you still post your 'odd thoughts' AND stuff like this thread, I'd LOVE to see what you could come up without your writer's block.

Is it a fair statement to say that since we've kept JO and invested so much in him, that we are never going to have another Ron Artest caliber player beside him? If we had a chance to bring in someone else to fill the role that Artest was filling unhappily, would it lead to the same result? Is the main problem JO being a prima donna or Carlisle's system of enabling that attitude?

I still feel like this team is somehow broken even if we had everyone healthy. I think it starts with Jackson, but doesn't end there....

RWB
03-17-2006, 08:13 AM
Carlisle's system of enabling that attitude?

I still feel like this team is somehow broken even if we had everyone healthy. I think it starts with Jackson, but doesn't end there....

It seems heywoode has brought up the point many continue to feel or struggle with conerning this team....Attitude.....

Who's got it? Sometimes attitude is good, but who has it and uses it in a negative way on this team?

D-BONE
03-17-2006, 08:14 AM
I think there was a JO-Ron-Ron schism, but certainly a Ron-Ron Carlysle one to. And if you wanna throw in Jack, well I can't rule that out either even though he seemed to be the one guy that backed Artest til the end.

By the time of the trade demand it was a Ron-everybody conflict. So what difference does it make?

The cotton candy thing is an great metaphor. Totally agree. That being the case, I say be happy Artest is finally gone despite his talent and intensity and now let's continue to revamp this team by cutting ties with some of the other key actors in creating that illusion. Time to move in another direction.

Unclebuck
03-17-2006, 08:15 AM
Peck, you have enough stuff in your post to last about 3 weeks. So much stuff to comment on.

I don't have the time to address all three points. Would the team be better with Artest, Granger, Brad, Jeff and Harrison and not J.O. Well with J.O's injuries, yes. But we haven't seen Peja and J.O together yet, so I can't say for sure.

Peck, I agree with your first point completely


As to your 3rd point, I just hope the Pacers have a new point guard and shooting guard. I can't take the current point guard situation or Jax either. I'm thrilled with AJ and Fred as the backups, but we need two new starters.

Hicks
03-17-2006, 08:36 AM
Well we might as well just go ahead & ask this right up front. I am asking you to put away your emotional response for a moment & remember this is me asking this so you all know I have no bias whatsoever for Ron Artest.

Should we have moved Jermaine O'Neal & kept Ron Artest? Wait wait wait before I am told to fornicate with myself let me explain.

I'm not talking about after Ron demanded a trade, by then it was to late. I'm asking if either last summer or the summer before when it should have been painfully apperant to TPTB that O'Neal & Artest could not survive on the same team if they shouldn't have chosen to get something for Jermaine then.

Now remember I'm just asking I'm not advocating that this is what they should have done.

I will give you all a scenario that I gave to Uncle Buck at Perkins when it was only 4 of us left & you tell me how you would respond.

How differant would things have turned out if the Pacers let J.O. walk, signed Brad Miller for a reasonable contract & maybe pulled in a good solid shooting guard with the money left over?

Before you just spit at the screen or fall over laughing I want you to think about it. How differant would the locker room have been, how differant would the team have been, how differant would Ron have been?

Now Jay is going to tell us that it would not have been differant at all & he may very well be right. But is it what you believe as well?

It may have worked. If the idea is that in summer 2003, you keep Brad Miller, let JO walk, and use the extra (potentially up to) $56mm on finding a good to very good 2, and then you simply keep Al Harrington beyond 2004 as the PF.

So you have Tinsley, Reggie, Artest, Harrington, and Brad, followed by Miller retiring and whoever we signed as the new 2 (let us pray it would not be out-right signing Stephen Jackson) starting in his place. Yes, Al is a little small for a 4, but having a true center and a giant SF, not to mention Al is a very strong player in his own right, I think it would work.

But two things have to be said.

Number one is that Ron didn't deserve this more than JO deserved to stay.

It'd kind of be like having an office of say, 20 workers. It's a business where if you have a lot of B- or better employees, you're doing pretty good. You even have some B+'s and an A-. They get all get along pretty well, and the business is looking like it will steadily improve over the next few years, but you're not sure if you'll every make it the "big leagues" of your business..

Then this A+ shows up. At first you're on :cloud9: because you got this stud. With his productivity, you're headed straight to the top within a couple of years. Then after 6 months he's either directly fighting with, not getting along with, or distracting day in and day out the A- and all the B+'s, and only half the B-'s are on his side.

So then you're faced with a similar choice that the Pacers were faced with. And IMO, talent be damned if he's causing that much of a mess, you get his *** out of the office. Don't honor his ****ty attitude by getting rid of your A- and B+ guys just to appease the dick A+.

So that's part one. Yes it may have worked, but it would have sucked because you sell your soul to do it.

Part two is this. Even if you do sell your soul, it still doesn't pay off for long. Why? 11-19-04. Maybe this changes the when and where, but before that day, Ron was a ticking time bomb to go back into the stands (I say back because he'd already tried twice [In Indiana, and later In Boston]). I say that there's a big, big chance he finds his way up there at some point with this "alternative" team, and so then even if you chose him over JO, he ruins your season by getting himself suspended for the year, throwing everything your team was working towards in the grinder.

We have to remember that aside from his basketball issues, Ron has other behavior issues as well.

Lastly, let me add that the 61-wins weren't an illusion. We had a real chance to win the championship in 2004. The illusion was the expectation that this team could stay together for more than a year to sustain the run for the title. Now I'll add that if 11/19 hadn't happened, I believe 2005 had a good chance of looking similar to 2004, but with Jackson here I don't know that for sure. But what I'm trying to say is 2004 was solid, but these guys were probably not capable of staying on the same page long enough to make more than that one true run.

Slick Pinkham
03-17-2006, 08:42 AM
I don't think it came down to Ron or Jermaine. I think it came down to Ron or Rick.

I personally think that it did not come down to Ron-JO or Ron-Rick.

This was all a huge smokescreen. It came down to a set of rules that the Pacers and the NBA decided post-brawl that Ron Artest must live by, and that included using some mental health services. Ron absolutely refused to do that. The Pacers insisted that he do so, he got all pouty and used the excuse of the offense and conflicts with Jermaine to get out of town and not be "disrespected" by being made to get mental health care.

That's my grassy knoll theory about the real reason why Ron Artest wanted out of town.

owl
03-17-2006, 08:46 AM
Peck said...."Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced"


Oddly,this day holds no significant emotion for me as I am ready for the new team to be here and that will not happen until this summer. The Ron-Ron days are over and I am not looking back at all. It is time to look ahead at the problems the Pacers face and they are two-flold and I have been saying this for awhile along with a few others on the board. The backcourt is where the problems lie. Point guard is a big problem but shooting guard is even more pressing. The problem is two fold with each postion. Talent and attitude
are the problems and I believe talent might be the bigger issue.
If Jax could shoot like a shooting guard we could maybe get by with his
attitude and that is a big maybe. At point guard I would trade both
AJ and Jamal for a starting guard if possible and draft another one to develope. Terrel Everett is who I would draft. A left handed guard with
a handle you would not believe and quickness and size. His shooting is not great and that is why he is low in the draft pecking order. The man can
distribute also. He is exactly what the Pacers need to develope. Sarunas
can be the back up.

http://nbadraft.net/profiles/terrelleverett.asp

At shooting guard there is not much hope of improving that position unless they move way up in the draft. Morrison is out of reach and Reddick might
be able to be had but his size is a concern. As far as shooters go Steve
Novak from Marquette would be a great pick up. Anybody who can shoot
like he does must be picked up. He has put up sick numbers for 4 years.
Put him at shooting guard for parts of games with Peja and Granger and
ooohhhhh, I think I am going to need a drool cup :_ . JO at center
would just be awesome in this set-up.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=10981

The Pacers need role players that do there role well and not players who
have to dominate the ball, ie Jackson and Jamal and have an attitude when
things are not going well. Donnie Bird are you reading this?

owl :-)

penn13
03-17-2006, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by Peck

How differant would things have turned out if the Pacers let J.O. walk, signed Brad Miller for a reasonable contract & maybe pulled in a good solid shooting guard with the money left over?

Watch the Kings for the answer to that question.

brichard
03-17-2006, 09:54 AM
1. Ron is, has been, and will always be a psycho.

2. Ron can mask his psychotic tendencies, but will always reveal himself in time.

3. Ron can be the ultimate and worst teammate you've ever seen. He can be unselfish one day and completely selfish the next.


Now, I'm not saying that JO doesn't have issues, but give me a break with Ron. IMHO Ron's issue is that he doesn't like authority. He likes to do things his own way. He doesn't want to take orders from a coach or another player, b/c he truely believes nobody knows more about basketball than he does. If he is being given free reign for now he will be happy, but he will eventually self destruct. There are examples of players like him turning around, but I would not bet on it with him.

JO's biggest issues seem to stem from his leadership role. People can debate the reasons as to "why" all day long, but I just don't think being a leader is Jermaine's forte. It doesn't make him a bad person and nor does it make him a player who can't function within the team. But when he puts the leadership cap on, it just doesn't fit. Part of leadership is in training, but I also think part of it is just in your bones.

We've all been a part of a team where a guy tries to lead, works at it, and says/does all the right things. But in the end... it just doesn't work. If he could just pass that torch to somebody else it would help out a great deal IMO. Making him take that role does promote friction IMO.

It may be time for Carlisle and some other guys to change addresses. I don't know... we'll see.

Anthem
03-17-2006, 10:13 AM
Damn anthem, he really burned you....

The dreaded "spelling nazi" tactic....can anthem get off the mat before being counted out? Only time will tell.
Yep, I'm toast. I hang my head in shame. That's what I get for posting at 2 in the morning when I should have been asleep (especially considering I had a 7:30 meeting this morning).

Now that I'm no longer working as an editor, my obsessive-compulsive disorder seems to be wearing off.

RWB
03-17-2006, 10:18 AM
my obsessive-compulsive disorder seems to be wearing off.

Not true, you're on here everyday just like the rest of us losers. :D

Anthem
03-17-2006, 10:19 AM
You spelled the words "too" and "different" wrong. If you're going write a novella...spell simple words correctly.
Wait, now I'm even more confused. I just assumed that I'd screwed up, but for the life of me I can't find the mistake. The LaBron / LeBron thing is wrong, but I don't see the others. Were you talking to Peck?

Anthem
03-17-2006, 10:21 AM
Not true, you're on here everyday just like the rest of us losers. :D
Baby steps, man, baby steps. :laugh:

It doesn't help that most of the classrooms have WiFi (I'm working on my Master's).

ChicagoJ
03-17-2006, 10:56 AM
Although I see that my name has been taken in vain a few times already, I'll just throw this out...


If we could go back in time, and try to re-tool the team around Ron so that he'd be conflict-free and happy...

Well, we'd have Siggy at PG. :yikes:

I don't know what possible team you could put together where Ron, at SF, is your best player, doesn't have to defer to a dominant post player, and the team still wins 61 games.

I don't see how the situation played out differently, because Ron's behavior could not and should not be attributed to the people around him. Its happened too many times to always be "somebody else's" fault. No matter who the Pacers put on the team or installed as coach, there was going to be a problem.

JO may (or may not) have contributed to the problems. But its irrelevant, and its somewhat an exercise in "blaming the victem."

Maybe Ron finally responds to a fresh start in Sac-town. Or maybe he doesn't. But it was never going to work here.

Now if you're going to suggest that both Ron and JO should've been shipped out of town, then I'll point you back to "This Team is Built for the Regular Season," where I made the same criticisms of JO a year ago.

I still think there's hope for JO. I dunno, I guess unlike some of you I do buy into some of the hype around JO.

But I've also realized that I was the only remaining Jalen Rose fan when he was traded, so as always, take it with a grain of salt.

grace
03-17-2006, 11:43 AM
Should we have moved Jermaine O'Neal & kept Ron Artest? Wait wait wait before I am told to fornicate with myself let me explain.

I'm not talking about after Ron demanded a trade, by then it was to late. I'm asking if either last summer or the summer before when it should have been painfully apperant to TPTB that O'Neal & Artest could not survive on the same team if they shouldn't have chosen to get something for Jermaine then.

No way should we have gotten rid of Jermaine and kept Ron. I'm not as big a fan of JO as I used to be, but at least I feel quite safe in the fact that he's not going to go nuts and screw us over like Ron has. Back in the summer I think most of us had the thought in the back of our minds that it was just a matter of time before Ron went nuts again.

I'd like to think that a fresh start with a new team will help Ron, but I'd also like to think that I could be a size 7. In other words it is possible, but extremely not probable.

As for the rest of your scenario of keeping Brad and getting a shooting guard you must remember this is the Pacers. In other words, they'd be hurt and people would be complaining that we never should have gotten rid of JO.

Moses
03-17-2006, 12:35 PM
:haterade:

Gamble
03-17-2006, 12:38 PM
Good thread as usual Peck.

To me the pg situation will resolve itself in the offseason. Its pretty
unwise to trade a great player when is stock is low for a mediocre
pg who can play the 2.

As for speculating on mentally unstable players I would rather not.
In theory your solution to avoid disaster works and I can
see a good team coming out of it but hindsight is only good for the
future.

If we can stop lusting after talent and build a team with chemistry
who knows how far we can go. If anything I would keep watching the
games on my fuzzy channel 4.

Eindar
03-17-2006, 03:05 PM
I think, for this line of thinking to be effective, there's a very small window in which you can comfortably trade JO and try to make Artest happy. That window was during or the summer after the 61-win season. Honestly, once the brawl happened, this city would always have a bad taste in its mouth regarding Ron Artest, and it would be far too risky to make Artest the main option after all the things he did. Consider the worst case scenario: we can Carlisle, and possibly trade JO, and Ron doesn't change. Now you've done some dubious moves, and your team is still a mess. You have no chemistry, an inferior coach, and in the eyes of the fans, you've traded the face of the franchise so the psycho can run the asylum. A move like that could likely get Bird and Walsh run out of town.

If you go back in time, and can mold events to your liking, you can make this team look Very attractive. First, lets say instead of giving JO the Max, you trade him to Minnesota (along with a promising Tinsley) for Garnett. You then turn around and trade either Croshere or Bender for expiring contracts (Pollard?), allowing you to re-sign Brad Miller. That gives you a starting 5 of:

Johnson
Miller
Artest
Garnett
Miller

This is the lineup for the season of the brawl. That's a great lineup, especially if you can go incident free and add Sarunas to it as the backup.

Of course, now that I've lived in fantasy land for a while, it's time to snap back to reality. JO and Rick Carlisle didn't throw the cup in Detroit. Having the aforementioned lineup wouldn't have stopped Ron from running in the stands, and ruining that season. These changes wouldn't have kept Ron from feeling the pressure from this city regarding his actions, inevitably leading to his trade demand.

In short: playing revisionist history still doesn't keep Ron in a Pacers uniform. Realize he ruined his reputation with this city regardless of external forces, and move on.

sixthman
03-17-2006, 05:25 PM
First, lets say instead of giving JO the Max, you trade him to Minnesota (along with a promising Tinsley) for Garnett.

Minnesota would never have traded KG back then. Never.

Eindar
03-17-2006, 05:52 PM
Minnesota would never have traded KG back then. Never.

Notice the part where I said we can mold events to our liking. I never said this was a realistic possibility. Regardless, it doesn't change what happened.

PaceBalls
03-17-2006, 06:08 PM
I'm glad that some of you guys are trying to look at losing Artest without judgements being clouded by anger. Keyword trying..

I may be the only pacer fan in Indiana who thinks so, but I really wish we coulda kept Ron. Too many stubborn folks in control, including Ron. But damn, it's hard to see such a great player with such a cheap contract leave the team.

I also think there was a similar stubborness involved with AL leaving to Atlanta. I think most here would agree with me when I say, can we trade back Jack for AL?

If I had to choose, I would have rather built the team around Ron than JO, for salary and for talent. Larry doesn't take any crap and so we lose our good players.

I do think the 2003 team was one of the best in recent years, not just in Indiana, but in the nba. Ron JO and AL were supposed to lead us to a dynasty. Wish we still had that team... I like this team and the possibilities of Granger and Hulk for years to come, but I doubt we will see a Pacer team as great as the 03 team for a long long time. They were one of the greatest defensive teams I have ever seen.

anyway, just my 2cents

heywoode
03-17-2006, 06:32 PM
I'm glad that some of you guys are trying to look at losing Artest without judgements being clouded by anger. Keyword trying..

I may be the only pacer fan in Indiana who thinks so, but I really wish we coulda kept Ron. Too many stubborn folks in control, including Ron. But damn, it's hard to see such a great player with such a cheap contract leave the team.

I also think there was a similar stubborness involved with AL leaving to Atlanta. I think most here would agree with me when I say, can we trade back Jack for AL?

If I had to choose, I would have rather built the team around Ron than JO, for salary and for talent. Larry doesn't take any crap and so we lose our good players.

I do think the 2003 team was one of the best in recent years, not just in Indiana, but in the nba. Ron JO and AL were supposed to lead us to a dynasty. Wish we still had that team... I like this team and the possibilities of Granger and Hulk for years to come, but I doubt we will see a Pacer team as great as the 03 team for a long long time. They were one of the greatest defensive teams I have ever seen.

anyway, just my 2cents

Are you meaning these statements with a caveat that Ron was a normal, non-ticking time bomb-type person? That is the only way I can see building a team around someone who may go ballistic or do something else totally stupid at any moment.

I will also add that way back at the start of this thread, I made a statement that I would rather have kept Artest and traded JO if it meant getting to keep Brad Miller and acquire other players. That statement was made with the assumption that we were talking about a sane Ron Artest.

I have since changed that opinion and now think that we are lucky to be rid of him, and that however long the honeymoon lasts in Sacramento, the fact that it will end eventually is undeniable.

PaceBalls
03-17-2006, 06:54 PM
Are you meaning these statements with a caveat that Ron was a normal, non-ticking time bomb-type person? That is the only way I can see building a team around someone who may go ballistic or do something else totally stupid at any moment.

I will also add that way back at the start of this thread, I made a statement that I would rather have kept Artest and traded JO if it meant getting to keep Brad Miller and acquire other players. That statement was made with the assumption that we were talking about a sane Ron Artest.

I have since changed that opinion and now think that we are lucky to be rid of him, and that however long the honeymoon lasts in Sacramento, the fact that it will end eventually is undeniable.

Yes I am,
Ron is a reactionary kinda guy, but, I don't think he is a ticking time bomb. He isn't insane and off the deep end like Mike Tyson. Ron isn't gonna screw up the kings. It was probably the best trade they ever made, and maybe the worst we ever did, depending on Peja's future here.

So I suppose we are of different opinions concerning the mental stability of Ron. I'll agree to disagree with you on that.

From a strictly financial view of the franchise though, JO vs Ron should not even be a debate. Ron has one of the cheapest contracts for the talent he has in the league. Not to mention who we could have gotten in a S&T for JO, or where we would be capwise just letting him go.

But on the other side, just to throw a bone out there, I think Ron is not pleased with his contract. I think he feels he signed a bad deal and wants to renegotiate it. I wonder sometimes how far that frustration has gone with him? That may have been one of the root issues with any of his problems.

So I can understand those fed up with him. Yet bottom line for me is he is one of the greatest ballers I've ever seen play. It's hard to let a guy like that go.

D-BONE
03-17-2006, 07:01 PM
ARTEST=ANCIENT PACER HISTORY.

QUESTION: WHO, IF ANYONE, FROM THAT SAME NUCLEUS WILL BE NEXT IN THE ANNALS OF PACER HISTORY?

heywoode
03-17-2006, 07:10 PM
Yes I am,
Ron is a reactionary kinda guy, but, I don't think he is a ticking time bomb. He isn't insane and off the deep end like Mike Tyson. Ron isn't gonna screw up the kings. It was probably the best trade they ever made, and maybe the worst we ever did, depending on Peja's future here.

So I suppose we are of different opinions concerning the mental stability of Ron. I'll agree to disagree with you on that.

From a strictly financial view of the franchise though, JO vs Ron should not even be a debate. Ron has one of the cheapest contracts for the talent he has in the league. Not to mention who we could have gotten in a S&T for JO, or where we would be capwise just letting him go.

But on the other side, just to throw a bone out there, I think Ron is not pleased with his contract. I think he feels he signed a bad deal and wants to renegotiate it. I wonder sometimes how far that frustration has gone with him? That may have been one of the root issues with any of his problems.

So I can understand those fed up with him. Yet bottom line for me is he is one of the greatest ballers I've ever seen play. It's hard to let a guy like that go.

I agree with you that Ron has a very economical contract. That fact didn't help the Pacers trying to trade him, and I'm sure that it is weighing on his mind or at least WAS when he was here.

I can understand his frustration, but at the same time, his mental state was a big reason why he was so undervalued when he did sign his current deal. If he had Kevin Garnett's attitude, or Tim Duncan's, he could get max money. I don't see it happening given his sordid past.

The commentary I keep hearing on TV is that it is great to see him doing well and the Kings also. I don't agree. The way I see it, Ron had his way with my beloved franchise and cost my favorite player of all time his last two shots at a title. Now all of a sudden he has "grown" and is a great guy? NO. He's still an a$$hole regardless of what is coming out of his mouth or how he is acting. Some people burn the bridge and destroy the foundation for ever building another one. That is where I am with Artest. I even threw away both autographs I had from him. Maybe I'm wrong for holding this much of a grudge, but this situation is way different than a former player returning, or even a player that demanded a trade coming back to face a former team.

That last paragraph wasn't an attack on anyone, just my commentary after having to listen to sportcasters talk about it all day...

GO PACERS!!

ChicagoJ
03-17-2006, 07:12 PM
Ron's contract was so low because he was not in position to negotiate a lucrative deal.

Ron's contract was so low because the people involved with that contract knew, and understood, the risks of Ron "going Artest" publicly, as he had done many times behind closed doors.

Ron's contract, based solely on his playing ability, would have been much higher. Ron's contract, based solely on his mental/ emotional ability, would have been zero.

Notice that Ron's contract is just about equal to the average of zero (based on his brain) and the max (based on his skillz).

It wasn't a stroke of luck that the Pacers signed Ron to a contract below is outwardly-perceived market value. It made him difficult to trade, but that contract fully reflected the risks.

Ron may over-value himself, and there may be a "bigger fool" out there that's willing to pay him. But the "bigger fool" theory is a widely-accepted theory of socio-economic behavior. And the Maloofs seem to be good examples of somebody willing to pay for something that they believe they can turn around.

Kegboy
03-17-2006, 07:20 PM
Damn anthem, he really burned you....

The dreaded "spelling nazi" tactic....can anthem get off the mat before being counted out? Only time will tell.

Nobody ****s with Graham Mernatsi. I bet you your shoe that Doc's floating in a river right now.

Kegboy
03-17-2006, 07:27 PM
In regard to Larry Joe ****ing up with Cabbage, I think he assumed that Cabbage was such a great team guy, that he'd accept being played at the 2. He had to play up the PG stuff to get him over Cleveland. I've always said, after Reggie retired, Bird's #1 priority was getting a shooter, and he went out and signed the best available.

Now Cabbage has got me defending Larry Bird of all people? :suicide:

Anthem
03-17-2006, 08:03 PM
Ron's contract, based solely on his playing ability, would have been much higher.
I don't think that's true. Back then, Ron was a slightly better Bruce Bowen... a defender that occasionally brought some offense. It was only in the last couple years that Ron's offensive game has matured.

Back when the contracts were signed, I think there were people that thought it could become a good deal for the Pacers, but there wasn't a universal perspective that we'd gotten a steal.