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View Full Version : 03/13/2006 Game Thread 61: Pacers vs Magic



BostonConnection
03-13-2006, 06:21 PM
:crystalba MAKE THE MAGIC :crystalba
DISAPPEAR!!!


http://images.sportsline.com/images/nba/logos/IND.gif -VS-http://images.sportsline.com/images/nba/logos/ORL.gif
<hr>

Game Time Start: 7:00 pm EST

TV: FxMW

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=450><TBODY><TR><TH bgColor=gold colSpan=6>Projected Pacers' Starting Lineup:</TH><TR><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>C</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>PF</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>SF</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>SG</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>PG</CENTER></TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/scot_pollard.jpg</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/jeff_foster.jpg</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/peja_stojakovic.jpg</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/stephen_jackson.jpg</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/anthony_johnson.jpg</CENTER></TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>Pollard</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>Foster</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>Stojakovic</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>Jackson</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>Johnson</CENTER></TD></TR><TR><TH bgColor=gray colSpan=6>Projected Magic Starting Lineup:</TH><TR><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>C</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>PF</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>SF</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>SG</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>PG</CENTER></TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/tony_battie.jpg</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/dwight_howard.jpg</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/hidayet_turkoglu.jpg</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/deshawn_stevenson.jpg</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/jameer_nelson.jpg</CENTER></TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>Battie</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>Howard</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>Turkoglu</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>Stevenson</CENTER></TD><TD align=middle width=90><CENTER>Nelson</CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Season Records: (W-L)
:thepacers 31-29
:magic: 22-40

Last 5 Games:
Date/Opponent&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Result&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Top&nbsp;Scorer/Rebounder/Assists&nbsp;
:(&nbsp;Mar&nbsp;12&nbsp;at&nbsp;Toronto&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;L&nbsp;89-93&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jackson&nbsp;26/Foster&nbsp;16/Johnson&nbsp;6&nbsp;&nbsp;
:)&nbsp;Mar&nbsp;10&nbsp;at&nbsp;New&nbsp;Orl/OKC&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W&nbsp;92-90&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Stojakovic&nbsp;26/Foster&nbsp;12/Jackson&nbsp;4&nbsp;&nbsp;
:(&nbsp;Mar&nbsp;8&nbsp;at&nbsp;Houston&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;L&nbsp;99-103&nbsp;&nbsp;Stojakovic&nbsp;29/Foster&nbsp;16/Stojakovic&nbsp;5&nbsp;&nbsp;
:(&nbsp;Mar&nbsp;7&nbsp;vs&nbsp;New&nbsp;York&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;L&nbsp;92-107&nbsp;&nbsp;Jackson&nbsp;20/Pollard&nbsp;9/Johnson&nbsp;6&nbsp;&nbsp;
:)&nbsp;Mar&nbsp;5&nbsp;at&nbsp;Philadelphia&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W&nbsp;94-93&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Johnson&nbsp;18/Foster&nbsp;8/Jackson&nbsp;7&nbsp;&nbsp;

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 06:26 PM
:goponies:

sweabs
03-13-2006, 06:27 PM
Go team.

MagicRat
03-13-2006, 06:32 PM
Fred is back tonight and Austin will be back Wednesday, according to mboyle1313.............

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 06:33 PM
FREDDIE IS BACK, No more Sarunas at the 2.

Ohh and START TINSLEY

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 06:47 PM
Fred is back tonight and Austin will be back Wednesday, according to mboyle1313.............

YES

YES

YES



I'm smelling a good game by Hulk today

CableKC
03-13-2006, 06:52 PM
YES

YES

YES

I'm smelling a good game by Hulk today
Hopefully....but he will be guarded by the likes of Howard and Battie.....both solid defenders against Big Men.

Lord Helmet
03-13-2006, 06:55 PM
Fred being back is great news, same with Croshere.

:goponies:

#31
03-13-2006, 07:12 PM
gogogogo!

sweabs
03-13-2006, 07:13 PM
For once we aren't the ones turning it over at a rapid pace!

Lord Helmet
03-13-2006, 07:16 PM
Play some defense....

Lord Helmet
03-13-2006, 07:17 PM
Timeout, please.

Howard is DESTROYING us.

3 consecutive non-contested dunks.

#31
03-13-2006, 07:17 PM
I love D-Howard, that man can BALL! Reminds me a bit of Shawn Kemp

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 07:17 PM
lmao at every play we run is for Stephen Jackson. I think he would shoot 60 times a game if he didnt get tired.

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 07:17 PM
Dwight Howard is about to reach his ppg norm...
In the first 5 minutes.

sweabs
03-13-2006, 07:18 PM
Three easy dunks down low for Dwight so far...

I want to see Hulk really body up on him and be aggressive. No more easy points.

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 07:19 PM
He used to be on some mental slump recently, after the Francis trade. Couldn't adjust to being the main man on the team, probably.
Now it might be over.

sweabs
03-13-2006, 07:19 PM
Does anyone know what Pacers are signing at the Home Court giftshop on Saturday? Mr. Boyle just mentioned something about that...

Peja for 3!

#31
03-13-2006, 07:20 PM
Thaaats right Peja.. more of those please.

Lord Helmet
03-13-2006, 07:20 PM
What a bull**** call on Pollard.

He puts his hands up, a guy runs into him and a foul is called. Typical NBA refs.

George Foreman
03-13-2006, 07:20 PM
Is Hulk in the game cause that don't sound like him to give up an easy dunk.

sweabs
03-13-2006, 07:22 PM
Is Hulk in the game cause that don't sound like him to give up an easy dunk.

Hulk is in now...although Dwight just got another easy layup.

Now Turkoglu has an easy layup.

Lord Helmet
03-13-2006, 07:23 PM
How did you miss that lay-up?

#31
03-13-2006, 07:26 PM
IM 110% SURE THIS WILL BE ANOTHER OF THOSE "CLOSE-GAME-CHOKING-GAMES"

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 07:27 PM
Very good to have Freddie back

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 07:27 PM
Peja moans funny.


I had forgotten how fun it was to watch Tins go. I wish someone could figure out how to get that man to stay healthy.

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 07:32 PM
Tins can get to the basket against ANYBODY in the NBA.

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 07:33 PM
Peja moans funny.


I had forgotten how fun it was to watch Tins go. I wish someone could figure out how to get that man to stay healthy.You starting to hear it too? It makes me lmao, everytime he is under the basket AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

sweabs
03-13-2006, 07:33 PM
Peja moans funny.


I had forgotten how fun it was to watch Tins go. I wish someone could figure out how to get that man to stay healthy.

Bubble Wrap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 07:36 PM
Whom did Darko block?

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 07:38 PM
Whom did Darko block?The Hulk

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 07:39 PM
Our team plays so much better with Tins on the floor its not even funny. Someone needs to get to work and make Tins a robot that cant break down.

DeS
03-13-2006, 07:40 PM
Are we going to lead double-digits? That sounds too bad for me ;)

sweabs
03-13-2006, 07:41 PM
Keep er up Danny boy!!!

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 07:41 PM
The Dangerous one is back after a mini slump

DeS
03-13-2006, 07:45 PM
I have no doubt, that our bench will outperform the starters tonight!

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 07:46 PM
This fool better not take Tins out.

sweabs
03-13-2006, 07:46 PM
Danny knows that his biggest fan is coming to Indy to watch him this week :)

Keep up the great work Danny...he's playing a great game thus far.

8pts, 5rbs, 1ast, 1stl so far.

sweabs
03-13-2006, 07:48 PM
Speak of the devil - now he has 10pts, 6rbs!

Tinsley can make guys around him better............

#31
03-13-2006, 07:49 PM
EWWW... PEJA.... UGLY SHOT:(

sweabs
03-13-2006, 07:51 PM
It's been dunking practice for Dwight so far.....

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 07:54 PM
lol Tins goes out and we cant score a basket. Funny. Way to go Ricky, when a player is playing good take them out fast you dont want the Pacers playing good now.

#31
03-13-2006, 07:55 PM
It's been dunking practice for Dwight so far.....

Doesnt he remind you of Shawn Kemp? That big muscular athletic body and agressive offense / defense...

DeS
03-13-2006, 07:55 PM
Is it resting the players, or RC isn't playing the hot hands again?

Kstat
03-13-2006, 08:02 PM
Doesnt he remind you of Shawn Kemp? That big muscular athletic body and agressive offense / defense...

Shawn Kemp was never that muscular.

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 08:02 PM
Thank the Lord that shot by Nelson wont count, what the hell is it with teams making all these amazing shots against us.

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 08:05 PM
You starting to hear it too? It makes me lmao, everytime he is under the basket AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Yes it is hilarious :laugh:

Moses
03-13-2006, 08:07 PM
So when is Tinsley going to be made the starter again and AJ moved to starting SG? Lord knows hes a way better shooter then Jax's streaky ***.

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 08:08 PM
So when is Tinsley going to be made the starter again and AJ moved to starting SG? Lord knows hes a way better shooter then Jax's streaky ***.

Yes please.

Tins/AJ actually gives us ball-handling at both guard positions.... so tired of our guards fumbling plays away.

Jax will never be benched though.

#31
03-13-2006, 08:08 PM
Shawn Kemp was never that muscular.

ha ha ha? :-o
http://images.wolfpk.com/reignman/sonics6_big.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6303419747.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

http://www.progsoc.uts.edu.au/~kwang/nba/kemp/kempdunk2.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/5779/Kempas.jpg

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 08:09 PM
Yes it is hilarious :laugh:Its funny but at the same time its sad that he gets scared the someone will hit him. Once against the Pistons a rebound was bouncing to him at the 3 point line and Ben Wallace was running out at him and you know what is next AHHHHHHHHHHHH. I wonder if his teammates laugh at him lol.

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 08:10 PM
Yes please.

Tins/AJ actually gives us ball-handling at both guard positions.... so tired of our guards fumbling plays away.

Jax will never be benched though.Rick would rather quit his job then bench Jack, everyone knows that Rick is afraid of Stephen.

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 08:11 PM
Please no more about Shawn Kemp.
It makes me sad.

#31
03-13-2006, 08:14 PM
Please no more about Shawn Kemp.
It makes me sad.

Why dude? :)

Kstat
03-13-2006, 08:19 PM
ha ha ha? :-o


I can show you pics that make Rip Hamilton look like a power forward. Doesnt make him muscular by NBA standards.

Kemp was never an overpowering physical player. He went over people, not through them.

#31
03-13-2006, 08:22 PM
I can show you pics that make Rip Hamilton look like a power forward. Doesnt make him muscular by NBA standards.

:liar:

CableKC
03-13-2006, 08:23 PM
Joy....a 6-0 run by the Magic.......ahhhhh...typical 2nd half Pacers play...

#31
03-13-2006, 08:24 PM
BOOM BABY PEJA

DeS
03-13-2006, 08:25 PM
Looks like an historical moment for both teams trying to beat assists/turnovers ratio record.

CableKC
03-13-2006, 08:26 PM
Man....Dwight Howard is just abusing our Frontline.

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 08:30 PM
Time to put Tinsley in

#31
03-13-2006, 08:33 PM
JAX shooting accuracy tonight is just.... :arrgh:

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 08:35 PM
Jackson has gotta learn to drive to the basket.

DeS
03-13-2006, 08:37 PM
JAX shooting accuracy tonight is just.... :arrgh:
Jax need to shoot more to get his touch back before the end of the 4th qtr. ;)

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 08:40 PM
Granger is the man.

Iceman1
03-13-2006, 08:40 PM
Granger!!!!

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 08:40 PM
Funny game thread by Magic fans:

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=491368&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

They made up some nicks for most of our (and their) players...

DeS
03-13-2006, 08:42 PM
Yea - Danny will get his double tonight.

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 08:42 PM
STEVENSON GET THAT **** OUT OF HERE

Iceman1
03-13-2006, 08:42 PM
Granger again!!!!! And 1!!!

#31
03-13-2006, 08:42 PM
WOW DANNY... :D

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 08:43 PM
Man, I wish there was someway we could see a lineup of Pollard-O'Neal-Granger-Peja-Tinsley, but that just seems unlikely.

FreshPrince22
03-13-2006, 08:44 PM
I bet Granger wishes he had Darko on him everynight :laugh:

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 08:44 PM
Good Lord that was a nasty block by the Hulk

ghost
03-13-2006, 08:45 PM
Darko already has his personal best in blocks - 5.

Iceman1
03-13-2006, 08:49 PM
Great followup by Harrison!

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 08:50 PM
Carlos 1-7, ouch.

Good game by Harrison.

CableKC
03-13-2006, 08:50 PM
JAX shooting accuracy tonight is just.... :arrgh:
Ahhh.... a typical 1-6 FGM / 0-2 3ptM night for SJax.

I'm glad that he is making it up by passing the ball to anyone else. :censored: Its even better that he is making it to the FT line so much.....I'm glad that he has learned that if he can't hit the side of the barn that he can try to draw fouls so that he can make up his crap shooting night at the FT line. :rolleyes:

Maybe with his cr@p night of shooting....when its down to a 2pt game tonight ( like it has been for the last couple of games )....we can get the ball to SJax....he needs to shoot his way out of a paper bag tonight....:censored:

indygeezer
03-13-2006, 08:51 PM
Score please.


I gave up watching basketball for Lent.

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 08:53 PM
These refs are some pansy *** punks, Hulk gets hammered and no call, he puts his hand on dude after a rebound and they call a foul on him. Weak **** refs WEAK.

Iceman1
03-13-2006, 08:53 PM
Pacers 73
Magic 70
8 to go in the 4th.

#31
03-13-2006, 08:54 PM
Ahhh.... a typical 1-8 FGM / 0-2 3ptM / 1-2 FTM / 2 TOs night for SJax.



Fixed... :)

CableKC
03-13-2006, 08:54 PM
Geez...Granger with 19points/9 rebounds?

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 08:56 PM
Geez...Granger with 19points/9 rebounds?

And zero fouls/turnovers..

CableKC
03-13-2006, 08:57 PM
Fixed... :)
I'm not sure...but I think when NBA.com tracks their scoring.....1-8 includes the 2 missed 3pt FGA in there.....I could be wrong though. :confused:

1-6 doesn't look as bad as 1-8. :rolleyes:

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 08:57 PM
Hulk OWNS The Magic's soul

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 08:57 PM
Will it be the first DNP for Jasikevicius?

CableKC
03-13-2006, 08:58 PM
Man....I betcha this game goes down to the wire......when it comes to close games...you know how the Pacers do.......can someone count the # of isolation plays are run in the remaining QTR?

I wouldn't be surprised if it comes down to a 2 to 3pt game...going either way.

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 08:58 PM
Oh were starting to run away from them now. Lets keep it up guys.

Grangers got a double-double.

CableKC
03-13-2006, 08:59 PM
Will it be the first DNP for Jasikevicius?
Note to Sarunas......get used to seeing those DNP next to your name in the Box Scores....you're gonna be playing 5-10 minutes MAX for the rest of the season now that Rick's 2 favorite PGs are back to health.

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 08:59 PM
Will it be the first DNP for Jasikevicius?
YEP, Unless we some how get a 20 point lead

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 09:05 PM
LMAO At Mel's acting job

Kstat
03-13-2006, 09:06 PM
Give that man an Emmy!

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 09:08 PM
Tinsley is just amazing

Kstat
03-13-2006, 09:08 PM
game over.

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 09:09 PM
2:32 4th

Orlando 77
Pacers 86

Hicks
03-13-2006, 09:14 PM
Rick put Gill in over Sarunas. That's insulting.

Kstat
03-13-2006, 09:15 PM
THink Lithuania is going to declare war on the state of Indiana after this?

#31
03-13-2006, 09:15 PM
4 players with double digits... ouch!

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 09:15 PM
Gill over Sarunas? Screw you Rick.

Saras, you should of went to Cleveland like I told you to buddy.

Moses
03-13-2006, 09:15 PM
Well, Tinsley needs to work on his shooting but when he's in the game, ball distribution is so much better. This isn't a knock on AJ..He's an excellent shooter but he lacks the court vision Tinsley has. I hope AJ sees some time at the 2 once Tinsley returns to the starting lineup.

FreshPrince22
03-13-2006, 09:16 PM
How many dunks does dwight have? 9?

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 09:17 PM
War would be the ultimate means. They would grant Rick persona non grata status before that.

#31
03-13-2006, 09:17 PM
Rick put Gill in over Sarunas. That's insulting.

Hahah, Runi is going for suicide tonight... :D

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 09:17 PM
I bet Granger wishes he had Darko on him everynight :laugh:

No doubt, left him open all night

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 09:19 PM
Hahah, Runi is going for suicide tonight... :D

Man, what's up with you?

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 09:21 PM
Good win guys, good win.

waterjater
03-13-2006, 09:22 PM
So what was diff in this 4th quarter. I forgot to record the game and just got home?

Help

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 09:23 PM
Gill over Sarunas? Screw you Rick.

Saras, you should of went to Cleveland like I told you to buddy.He should have, it would have been for the best. That way our PG's can score 20 a night on him 4 times a year.

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 09:24 PM
So what was diff in this 4th quarter. I forgot to record the game and just got home?

HelpJackson didnt play most of it. Tinsley ran the point.

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 09:27 PM
He should have, it would have been for the best. That way our PG's can score 20 a night on him 4 times a year.

Seriously bro


http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5093/stfu2lf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 09:30 PM
No thats okay, you act like the guy is bigger then the team, You should have signed with the Cavs like a told you dude SMH

#31
03-13-2006, 09:30 PM
Man, what's up with you?

Ask that question to yourself? This is Runis first time @ DNP and now AJ/Tinsley/Fred/Gill gets to play over a player like Runi and they WIN... its like a message from Rick to Runi "we dont need you!" and its a bit insulting. I dont think Runi will feel so so good after this game and then i made a joke which you didnt understand or u prolly have no humor at all? Geezuz....

Anthem
03-13-2006, 09:33 PM
Just a guess, but I'd say Rick didn't want to insult Sarunas by playing him in garbage minutes.

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 09:34 PM
Ask that question to yourself? This is Runis first time @ DNP and now AJ/Tinsley/Fred/Gill gets to play over a player like Runi and they WIN... its like a message from Rick to Runi "we dont need you!" and its a bit insulting. I dont think Runi will feel so so good after this game and then i made a joke which you didnt understand or u prolly have no humor at all? Geezuz....

Somebody is watching the Adams Family too often... I guess I don't understand jokes about suicides. Especially when their target had a really bad day...

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 09:35 PM
No thats okay, you act like the guy is bigger then the team, You should have signed with the Cavs like a told you dude SMH

You are one confused individual.

The reason why I thought Saras should of went to Cleveland is because there uptempo style of offense fits his style of play. He just doesnt fit into this system. Plus you have to factor that this is his first season in the NBA which is way different from Euroleague Basketball. And thats all I have to say.

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 09:37 PM
You are one confused individual.Too easy

Lord Helmet
03-13-2006, 09:46 PM
Just a guess, but I'd say Rick didn't want to insult Sarunas by playing him in garbage minutes.
That's what I was thinking.

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 09:53 PM
I think there's nothing insulting at all in that DNP or not playing Saras at the end of the game.

However, it's a bit sad the team does not have any use of him in rather tense games recently.

BlueNGold
03-13-2006, 09:58 PM
Loved Dwight Howard's interview. David Harrison...Danny Granger...David Harrison...Danny Granger...David Harrison...Danny Granger.........

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 10:25 PM
Loved Dwight Howard's interview. David Harrison...Danny Granger...David Harrison...Danny Granger...David Harrison...Danny Granger.........

???


Can you fill me in please? :)

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 10:34 PM
I'm smelling a good game by Hulk today


:nod:

David is showing great flashes of the player I always knew he could become.

The crazy thing is, Donnie and co. went and drafted a player I like nearly as much in hte very next draft.

I :love: Danny Granger, David Harrison, and Jermaine O'Neal. Those guys potentially making up our starting frontcourt next years gets me all giddy.

I can't wait to see what we do in this next draft. I'm hoping we land a SG that I'll like just as much as Danny and David, and then maybe we can ship Jack, Peja, and whoever else we need to to get ourselves a solid PG for next year.

Meer Nelson would be nice :)