PDA

View Full Version : Toronto Post Game Thread: Chokers (Robot Made My Rick Carlisle) Chokes again



Jermaniac
03-12-2006, 08:30 PM
Way to go Ricky nice play call there. Amazing end of the game coaching. Just like always, everydamn game. Its amazing how everyone out coaches you. Way to go buddy. Keep leading this team into losses.

Like BBall said Anthony Johnson should never be in when we need a game winning basket. Tins should have been in there at least he isnt as slow as a ****ing snail. BBall also said that he will never pass the ball up and he didnt. Amazing how we know what this team will do before they even hit the court.

I cant wait till these 2 are gone from the Pacers so I can enjoy watching my favorite team play.

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 08:31 PM
Can someone please change the title of this thread

Ignore list

317Kim
03-12-2006, 08:32 PM
This most definetly SUCKS! :kickcan: :tongue:

Jermaniac
03-12-2006, 08:33 PM
Can someone please change the title of this thread

Ignore listYou mad Rick Carlisle's true colors are coming out? Everyone see's it but you. Why do we lose the close game 9 out of 10 times? Why do we lose a 10 point lead everygame? Keep lying to yourself that he is a good coach.

SoupIsGood
03-12-2006, 08:34 PM
We really need better guard play. Badly. It should be a priority in the offseason. Better starting guard play. Please

Fireball Kid
03-12-2006, 08:34 PM
Your posts have no quality to them whatsoever.


Anyways, the Pacers lose again. Oh well, stuff happens. Time to move on

SoupIsGood
03-12-2006, 08:35 PM
I don't even get the title, other than we choke. The robot stuff? :confused:

SoupIsGood
03-12-2006, 08:35 PM
Your posts have no quality to them whatsoever.


Thanks :cool:

Jermaniac
03-12-2006, 08:36 PM
We really need better guard play. Badly. It should be a priority in the offseason. Better starting guard play. PleaseJack played good today, he forced some shots but thats Jack. Tins should have been in on the last play, he would have got someone open on that play. But we all know how important AJ is to Rick so no chance of that happening. Its Michael Curry all over again.

Jermaniac
03-12-2006, 08:37 PM
I don't even get the title, other than we choke. The robot stuff? :confused:Rick Carlisle made the Robot called Chokers lol, it was supposed to be Made BY but I was typing so fast I put MY.

Jermaniac
03-12-2006, 08:37 PM
Your posts have no quality to them whatsoever.Dont read them then.

SoupIsGood
03-12-2006, 08:37 PM
Jack played good today, he forced some shots but thats Jack. Tins should have been in on the last play, he would have got someone open on that play. But we all know how important AJ is to Rick so no chance of that happening. Its Michael Curry all over again.

Yes Jack could work but paired with AJ it is terrible. No ball handling at all.

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 08:37 PM
OK, moving on. The problem tonight is Foster can't do everything. Harrison was worthless, Granger was not good, and not having Pollard really hurt. Jeff needs some help in there.

These close games are killing me

Ant
03-12-2006, 08:38 PM
I dont think hes that far off base, Rick Carlisle is a terrible coach and
this team will continue to be mediocre/bad until the hobgoblin and
jax are gone.

317Kim
03-12-2006, 08:38 PM
Jeff was good though. Hopefully he's not gonna be too tired to play tommorrow night.

JEEZ. Close games suck. Losing a game after leading by 10+ sucks.

SoupIsGood
03-12-2006, 08:39 PM
Who do we play tommorow?

Jermaniac
03-12-2006, 08:40 PM
Who do we play tommorow?Magic, bad record. Which means 10 point lead, 2 to 4 point loss.

Evan_The_Dude
03-12-2006, 08:43 PM
Figures, I leave to work on my cars for one hour while we're up 10 points. I come back, and we've lost the game. I have to agree with Jermaniac, losing leads and losing close games will happen SOMETIMES, but when it becomes pretty consistent, it's a problem with coaching. Carlisle needs to quit being so scared to try something different.

317Kim
03-12-2006, 08:43 PM
Yup 19 points and 16 boards for the Feisty one.

3 other players were in double figures. :( Where's Hulk been?? I know he's played but I haven't seen him smash since the Rockets game.

MagicRat
03-12-2006, 08:50 PM
Mark mentioned during the broadcast that the Pacers have been building leads by running and losing them by walking it up. Maybe he'll mention it to Rick in passing........

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 08:50 PM
Pacers are missing Fred Jones and that is hurting, we are wearing down very quickly, I'm very worried about tomorrow night, that looks like a schedule type loss.

OK, just so I know when the road team has a 10-14 point lead and the home team either makes it close or comes back and wins, that is poor coaching? News to me

D-BONE
03-12-2006, 08:51 PM
Outscored 9-2 to finish the game. Jack, Peja, AJ all had opportunities. Nobody could make a big shot. Players? Coaches? Both? Plus, another loss to a poor record team. Ugh!

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 08:52 PM
Mark mentioned during the broadcast that the Pacers have been building leads by running and losing them by walking it up. Maybe he'll mention it to Rick in passing........



If that is the case it has nothing to do with Rick. You can't run when the other team scores 29 points in a quarter like they did tonight. Can't run when you're taking the ball out of the net.

able
03-12-2006, 08:55 PM
UB in all your understandable defense of Rick, can you honestly state two things:
1. AJ on the floor at the end is better then JT ?
2. That last play was a good play ?

MagicRat
03-12-2006, 09:00 PM
If that is the case it has nothing to do with Rick. You can't run when the other team scores 29 points in a quarter like they did tonight. Can't run when you're taking the ball out of the net.
<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr id="lineTopRow" align="center"><td class="bbL" align="left">
</td> <td class="bbL" width="30">1</td> <td class="bbL" width="30">2</td> <td class="bbL" width="30">3</td> <td class="bbL" width="30">4</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>T</td> </tr> <tr id="lineAwayRow" align="center"> <td align="left">Indiana </td> <td>23</td> <td>28</td> <td>24</td> <td>14</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td id="lineAwayTotal">89</td> </tr> <tr id="lineHomeRow" align="center"> <td align="left">Toronto </td> <td>23</td> <td>21</td> <td>29</td> <td>20</td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td id="lineHomeTotal">93</td></tr></tbody></table>
There's one number that stands out, and it's not the 29 point third quarter by the Raptors.......

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 09:01 PM
No, when it happen 13 times in a year that is bad coaching.

Just so you know.


How many times has it happened this year.

OK, I'm going through the schedule.

I'm only counting the losses and I'm only counting the double digit leads lost in the second half. A score of 12-2 to start the game doesn't count.

1) Bucks
2) Raptors
3) Hawks
4) Spurs - I think
5) Celtics
6) Raptors.

If anyone wants to add some more that I forgot, please do. 6 is not great, but it isn't a diaster.

bulletproof
03-12-2006, 09:03 PM
AJ was fouled, no doubt, but I'll never understand the play selection - the exact same play we blew the other night. And I do not want AJ taking the last shot. Very disheartnening past few days.

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 09:05 PM
UB in all your understandable defense of Rick, can you honestly state two things:
1. AJ on the floor at the end is better then JT ?
2. That last play was a good play ?



I wanted jax to get the last shot. But AJ was fouled so he should have been on the FT line for 2. So really it should have turned out OK. The play before that to Peja was worse.

As far as JT vs AJ. In tonights game. Tinsley had played about 10 minutes straight and needed a rest so I agreed bringing AJ back in.

ghost
03-12-2006, 09:08 PM
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 border=0><TBODY><TR id=lineTopRow align=middle><TD class=bbL align=left>

</TD><TD class=bbL width=30>1</TD><TD class=bbL width=30>2</TD><TD class=bbL width=30>3</TD><TD class=bbL width=30>4</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD>T</TD></TR><TR id=lineAwayRow align=middle><TD align=left>Indiana </TD><TD>23</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>14</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD id=lineAwayTotal>89</TD></TR><TR id=lineHomeRow align=middle><TD align=left>Toronto </TD><TD>23</TD><TD>21</TD><TD>29</TD><TD>20</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD id=lineHomeTotal>93</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
There's one number that stands out, and it's not the 29 point third quarter by the Raptors.......

Yeah, but 44% decrease of offensive output in the fourth (14 points by Pacers) killed my prediction for the game - Pacers victory 101 - 94.

able
03-12-2006, 09:11 PM
I wanted jax to get the last shot. But AJ was fouled so he should have been on the FT line for 2. So really it should have turned out OK. The play before that to Peja was worse.

As far as JT vs AJ. In tonights game. Tinsley had played about 10 minutes straight and needed a rest so I agreed bringing AJ back in.

1: Should have doesn't buy anything in todays world, except disspointment
2: Jasikevicius Substitution replaced by Johnson 6:10
Tinsley Substitution replaced by Jackson 6:10

that is time left in the 4th

I put it to you that there were several options better then the one we got, certainly if you want to depend on a foul call on a jumper with 2 seconds left and that a higher degree of certainty of success would have been accomplished with Jamaal in then with AJ on the floor.

Now assuming that you can not strengthen the case you bring to the table above, then some people are right to call this play a coaching error, combined with having the wrong lineup on the floor, not for the first time, should you not wonder why instead of whether it is right?

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 09:11 PM
Wait, why cant leads at the start of the game count?

OK but then you have to count the other way, how many times the Pacers came back from a 10 digit deficit to win

Every point counts, obviously, but leads mean a lot less in the first half.

I wonder how many times in the entire NBA teams lose games after having a double digit lead at some point in the game. I bet it is a pretty high %.

Doug
03-12-2006, 09:18 PM
AJ was fouled, no doubt, but I'll never understand the play selection - the exact same play we blew the other night. And I do not want AJ taking the last shot. Very disheartnening past few days.
Exactly. AJ is a great back-up point guard, and even a decent starting one. But he is not good enough that you can put the ball in his hands and count on him to beat his man (and the help defense) to win the game.

(even if he did get fouled)

I don't care if it's called an ISO or not. It was AJ, trying to score. No movement, no cutters, no pass.

And it is not a high-percentage game winning play.

CableKC
03-12-2006, 09:22 PM
I knew that Mike James was going to make the game winning shot that put the Raptors over us with seconds to spare.

Its always players like James or Maurice Williams that make those type of shots against us.....FRAK.

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 09:22 PM
Look, your a smart guy.

NBA teams make runs. I was simply making a point, but you are right, the first half doesnt mean as much, although I still hate losing big leads in the 1st half.

The Pacers have had many games (I cant count them all, but it seems a good number of them have come after the all star break) but we have blown plenty of games.

Like I said, there isnt anyone to blame other then RC. ESP. when you start slowing the game down and micromanaging


You had me until the last paragraph.

How about we blame the players or the lack of players.

Is the coach the only one to blame ????

sweabs
03-12-2006, 09:30 PM
I knew that Mike James was going to make the game winning shot that put the Raptors over us with seconds to spare.

Its always players like James or Maurice Williams that make those type of shots against us.....FRAK.

To be fair to Mike, he is Clutch - with the capital "C".

He has hit a bunch of important shots for the Raptors this year. Once I saw Foster switch with AJ to guard him on the perimeter, I thought he would try and drive it, but Foster gave him too much room.

Actually, I was a little surprised they didn't give the ball to Bosh once he had AJ defending him. He probably could have easily turned baseline and gone for an alley-oop pass on that play. Oh well - worked out for them in the end. James is a heck of a player - I still don't know how he's managed to jump around from team to team.

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 09:38 PM
Let me ask you this, do you ever blame a NBA coach for his team failing?





Yes I think coaches are extremely important to the overall success of a team. And I think Rick gets this team to play as well as it can. If we had Sam Mitchell as coach we'd be about 10 games under .500. if we had Mike Montgomery we'd be 15 under .500.

I thought Isiah was a terrible coach in almost every way, I hated the way he coached the team. But I did not blame him after each and every loss. I blamed him for the overall performance of the team, but not for each individual loss.

I'm not explaining myself well.

Even I did not criticize Isiah for his decisions within a game as far as who was on the court or play calls.

I have a knee jerk reaction against the, "blame the coach typical reaction"

Jermaniac
03-12-2006, 09:39 PM
I have been here before, see all my other threads.

I do blame the players, but with the eception of DH, our team played ok, not good but that is the best we can play with this group of guys (and Peja not dribbling the ball off of his foot)

You have to know your team, and this team is not a "half court" grind-it-out team, no matter how much RC tries to make it one.

Every time anyone challenges RC, you immidatly get defensive and want to talk about the players?

Let me ask you this, do you ever blame a NBA coach for his team failing?

In all seriousness, I wasnt here when Zeke left, but I am starting to feel about RC the same way I feel about Zeke his last year. He is starting to lose touch with his players.

In conclusion, no the HC in not the only one to blame, but you cant look past him.


THANK YOU. Great post. The guy never wants to lay any blame on Rick no matter what the hell he does.

NO MATTER WHO WE PLAY and WHAT PLAYERS WE HAVE IN THE GAME, We lose leads. It cant be the players.

Willbo
03-12-2006, 09:47 PM
The consenus opinion here appears to be that the players are not being put into a position whereby they can be held accountable for these type of losses. ie. The best combinations of players and plays are not being implemented, if this were the case then we could say 'heck our guys just weren't good enough' or 'player x wont get a better shot than that' etc.

Ultimately results come down to the players, that said players can be hamstrung by poor coaching decisions - A coach cant hit the final shot, but he can put out a team / call a play that cant hit that shot either

waterjater
03-12-2006, 10:03 PM
In the NBA, no lead is safe and no deficit is too great. Ever notice how we can always make a comeback and we can always blow a lead. Rarely, RARELY, is there a blow out in the NBA. This isn't about talent, home court or any other BS reason, its the NBA and how it officiates games. They call the game to keep it close.

Ever notice how you hate the refs when our lead is blown and how they seem to be decent guys when we make a comeback??? It is because they ignore "most" contact on the team that is behind and they call it extremely tight on the team that is ahead. SOOOOO, If the team that is behind is hitting shots, they will always, ALWAYS, come back to take a lead.

This is, in my opinion, why it is SO IMPORTANT to have a motion, ball movement offense to get easy shots. Refs can't take made shots out of the basket. Making shots, and many times, despite contact is the only way to maintain a lead in the NBA. This is why the ISO crap is useless with a lead, because you WILL NOT GET THE CALL....Rarely get a call.

Must use motion to get easy shots and avoid stupid fouls.

Once I accepted this kind of BS, "keep the game close" officiating, the games became easier to watch. I just focus on how we play when the other team gets within 4-6 pts. If we continue to move the ball, we score and typically win. If we resort to one on one ISO plays, we typically throw up a bad shot and get no rebound and the other team pushes into the lead and what happened tonight typically happens.

As for Carlisle, he just runs plays at the end of games that are MIND BOGGLING! Just scratch your head and wonder what the hell he is thinking. I like JT, but his around the back "look at me" layup was the beginning of the end in this game and he should've been pulled.

I'd put the ball in Saras hands because he make terrific passes to where players SHOULD be and makes easier scoring opps.

Lastly on Carlisle, he's lost this team and doesn't know what to do. Now we are seeing why Detriot fans were so upset, even though he was pretty darn successful.

Water

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 10:23 PM
Lastly on Carlisle, he's lost this team and doesn't know what to do. Now we are seeing why Detriot fans were so upset, even though he was pretty darn successful.

Water



I consider "a coach losing a team" as a pretty serious charge and when that happens either coach needs to be fired right away or about 8 or 9 players need to be traded right away.

What evidence do you see that Rick has lost the team. I just don't see anything that would lead me to believe that he has lost the team.


My memory could be failing me, but my memory suggests that the Pistons fans were quite upset that Rick was fired, in fact the fans thought Rick was an excellent coach. I don't remember anyone being upset with him. (disclaimer, that is not to suggest everyone agrees with every move Rick makes)

ChicagoJ
03-12-2006, 10:24 PM
If that is the case it has nothing to do with Rick. You can't run when the other team scores 29 points in a quarter like they did tonight. Can't run when you're taking the ball out of the net.

Bull.

But it does take a good outlet pass.

Tinsley used to want to get the inbounds pass at halfcourt, but Rick put a stop to that years ago.

The other thing to do to pick up the pace when your opponent is scoring is to coax them into long jumpers. Those are lower % shots and the long rebounds also lead to transition opportunities.

Its not always a bad strategy to give up an open jumper early in the shotclock. In fact, our opponents use that strategy against SJax quite well as he always takes the bait.

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 10:29 PM
8 games ago, if you had told me the Ppacers would have gone 4 - 4, I would have taken that. Especially with Fred going down, AJ missing a game, Scot missing a game, Harrison missing a game, Granger missing a game.

Not too bad

Kaufman
03-12-2006, 10:30 PM
I consider "a coach losing a team" as a pretty serious charge and when that happens either coach needs to be fired right away or about 8 or 9 players need to be traded right away.

What evidence do you see that Rick has lost the team. I just don't see anything that would lead me to believe that he has lost the team.


My memory could be failing me, but my memory suggests that the Pistons fans were quite upset that Rick was fired, in fact the fans thought Rick was an excellent coach. I don't remember anyone being upset with him. (disclaimer, that is not to suggest everyone agrees with every move Rick makes)

But the truth is, you see, that you nor I know what is going on inside the locker room. So we can't tell whether or not he has lost the team; only 15-20 people really know the answer to that and those people are the players, coaches, and TPTB.

Unclebuck
03-12-2006, 10:35 PM
But the truth is, you see, that you nor I know what is going on inside the locker room. So we can't tell whether or not he has lost the team; only 15-20 people really know the answer to that and those people are the players, coaches, and TPTB.



I know I'm posting too much. I'm going to bed.


But when a coach loses a team they don't play like the Pacers have the last 19 games. Not even close.

pacerwaala
03-12-2006, 10:38 PM
You guys have an argument in criticizing Rick for that last play call. Tins would have been a better choice to run that play. But I will give Rick the benefit of doubt for the success he has had and the injuries that we have right now.
Lets assume, AJ makes that shot. Is Rick immediately a good coach in all your minds?



But don't pile Rick for one freaking regular game loss. Think for a little while before firing Rick already.

The argument that Rick lost this team is horsesh..t because no team that has been so undermanned for the last two years will have the success that this team had in any pro sport. The players in uniform for Rick Carlilse on a given night give 100% effort every night no matter who is injured or suspended on that night.

We are 5th in the EC without having had JT and JO for most part this season.

I am ranting here but I suggest that we should stand back, think, get some perspective before passing judgement on RC over a regular season game.

brichard
03-12-2006, 10:45 PM
RC is a difficult guy to watch coach. On one hand you love some of the things he has accomplished. He had a 60+ win season with us. He has been dealt a pretty volatile hand in the likes of personalities. And in spite of the brawl, injuries, and meltdowns of players... he has managed to get us in a position to be in the playoffs. If you sit back and look at it, what he has accomplished is amazing. Many National media folks, including the TNT crew, mention Rick as the MVP of this team.

On the other hand... he plays a boring and seeminly less effective ISO offense. He goes with less than glamorous players and tends to play favorites over what some would consider to be good logic. His substitution patterns seem questionable and he doesn't give the team enough free reign. He also doesn't give young guys a good enough opportunity to grow/develop.

I really have bi-polar feelings about the man. In some ways I love him and other ways I hate him. But for what it's worth, most successful coaches use combinations and styles of offense/defense that are often different than the desires of their fan base. Larry Brown, Larry Bird, and Bob Knight come to mind off the top of my head.

ChicagoJ
03-12-2006, 10:49 PM
RC is a difficult guy to watch coach. On one hand you love some of the things he has accomplished. He had a 60+ win season with us. He has been dealt a pretty volatile hand in the likes of personalities. And in spite of the brawl, injuries, and meltdowns of players... he has managed to get us in a position to be in the playoffs. If you sit back and look at it, what he has accomplished is amazing. Many National media folks, including the TNT crew, mention Rick as the MVP of this team.

On the other hand... he plays a boring and seeminly less effective ISO offense. He goes with less than glamorous players and tends to play favorites over what some would consider to be good logic. His substitution patterns seem questionable and he doesn't give the team enough free reign. He also doesn't give young guys a good enough opportunity to grow/develop.

I really have bi-polar feelings about the man. In some ways I love him and other ways I hate him. But for what it's worth, most successful coaches use combinations and styles of offense/defense that are often different than the desires of their fan base. Larry Brown, Larry Bird, and Bob Knight come to mind off the top of my head.

all good points.

FrenchConnection
03-12-2006, 10:51 PM
But the truth is, you see, that you nor I know what is going on inside the locker room. So we can't tell whether or not he has lost the team; only 15-20 people really know the answer to that and those people are the players, coaches, and TPTB.

And god help this team if we ever find out the answer to this question. So long as it stays behind those closed doors it is not so bad.


8 games ago, if you had told me the Ppacers would have gone 4 - 4, I would have taken that. Especially with Fred going down, AJ missing a game, Scot missing a game, Harrison missing a game, Granger missing a game.

Not too bad


The perspective here is great. This loss sucked, but if we can get through this period of bad play playing .500 ball, we'll be just fine. I feel a big win tomorrow. I am going to the game and I have never seen the Pacers lose in about 50 games.

Tinsley will begin to play a lot more.

Evan_The_Dude
03-12-2006, 11:06 PM
If we had Sam Mitchell as coach we'd be about 10 games under .500. if we had Mike Montgomery we'd be 15 under .500.


How many times has either of those teams been to the playoffs within the last 10 years (Raptors haven't been around 10 years have they?)? They both have low expectations. They start every year off as a potential playoff contender. Not even a playoff contender, a POTENTIAL one.

We've started every year off for at least the last 4 seasons as a championship contender. There's different expectations here. I don't think anybody is expected to be ok with being a few games over .500. That's just not what a team with this much talent is supposed to be doing, injuries or no injuries.

I'm starting to see what Ron Artest was talking about when he said he couldn't fit in Rick's system. I really don't even know what Rick's system is anymore. I mean, is it not common sense to see that when you slow down the ball, you're allowing the opposition to rest and get back in the game?

What's with the iso crap? Isn't basketball a team sport? Do we have an Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, or Kobe Bryant on this team that's gonna give us an almost guaranteed good play on an iso? NO! Why do we keep going to it? Is that something to blame on the players or the coach?

Jermaniac
03-12-2006, 11:12 PM
If we had a AI or a Wade type player, I would totaly understand just spreading out and letting them work, but Anthony Freaking Johnson thats a joke right there. The guy cant take my grandma off the dribble and we expect him to get us a game winning basket. SMH

Pacesetter
03-12-2006, 11:26 PM
I watched the game, but I feel like there's really no point in telling what I think because it really doesn't matter unless Bird and Donnie see it. One thing I'm annoyed by is I'm fed up with players [won't mention names] that make a good play and then take the next three posessions off. There's two players that come to mind right off the bat.

Bball
03-12-2006, 11:32 PM
After a while, knowing AJ is going to take the last shot if he has the ball as the shot clock/game clock goes under 10 secs just leaves me numb. I know it's coming and there's nothing I can do about it.

UB mentioned that we were 4-4. In my book that is playing 'mediocre' basketball. I can't get too happy about 4-4... especially when it includes games we should've won. We were blown out by the Knicks... at Conseco. It's not like we went 4-4 on the road against legitimate WCF/ECF teams.

JO is not Wilt Chamberlain and AJ is not Michael Jordan.... but RC wants the team playing as if they are. I think anyone thinking JO would return to a cutting, screening, passing, motion offense were fooling themselves. Not only do I have little doubt we will we go away from it at JO's return, we're already going away from it. It appears Carlisle only goes to it when he's forced to with new players and little offensive options. Let the team get some practices in and we put that stuff back in and go right back to it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Carlisle is a great coach.... except when he's not.

I think he's maximized his time here overall... and I think he's fast coming to a career lesson of sorts one way or the other. I still don't think he's on the same page with Bird. I have no idea what Walsh wants (or if he's given up his idea of a teamful of Marcus Camby's). But Bird is on record, and (IMO) it doesn't jive with the style Carlisle wants to play or the players we've acquired.

I think this team loses confidence when they aren't allowed some space. I'm not advocating a run and gun offense or taking quick shots in the clock... Just keep on running a motion offense with lots of ball sharing and being HARD to defend. Make the defense work. I think some people are confusing a motion offense with a run and gun offense in their terminology.

I digress...
-

Being 4-4 is one thing... but how we got there is another - A blowout loss to the NYK's and questionable, wasted end of game possessions. And were any of those 4 losses to a team above .500? Not much love there for a fanbase thinking the that this could finally be the year. ... or at this point just looking for something to hang our hats on that things are turning around for an end of season/playoff run (even if the championship hopes have had cold water thrown on them).

It should surprise no one at this point, with the game on the line, that Carlisle has absolutely no confidence in anything but giving the ball to someone and having everyone else get out of the way. No screens. No cutting. Dribble Dribble Dribble... shoot...

Yeah, AJ was fouled. Imagine that.... an Indiana guard got fouled taking a weak end of game shot at Toronto and we didn't get the call. How many times would the away team get that call? Hardly ever....

I'm of the belief the only way you have much of a chance at a call is if you work the ball, hit someone coming off a screen with a pass, and a scrambling defender (out of position) makes a kamikazee attempt at a stop and does something the ref almost has to call... Or else the player taking the shot is actually open instead of shooting into a triple team (with our own players out of position to rebound because they were "making space").

"Making space" doesn't account for much if the other team can double without impugnity.

Just as Carlisle likes to use an egg timer for his subsitutions whenever possible, I have to wonder if TPTB also have an egg timer... It's a lot easier to change a coach than to revamp a roster.

-Bball

ChicagoJ
03-12-2006, 11:36 PM
If Carlisle thought this was a well-coached team, they wouldn't have been out of timeouts tonight.

As soon as I saw Saras making the inbounds pass against Bosh and Tinsley on the bench I knew what was coming.

LET 'EM PLAY!!

Jermaniac
03-12-2006, 11:46 PM
I agree BBall, as soon as JO is back its back to dump it down to JO and watch him work offense. I wonder what UB will come up with to save Rick then. We are going to end up losing Peja because of it watch.

Evan_The_Dude
03-13-2006, 12:03 AM
Would I be wrong if I said Larry Bird wants this team to play a style that lets them have fun, yet Carlisle isn't allowing that to happen?

stew
03-13-2006, 12:13 AM
you guys are too hard on RC...

we played without JO, Cro, Pollard and Jones... yet the team came prepared to play and gave a good fight...

if not for RC, we would not even be in a position to win it at the end...

Hicks
03-13-2006, 12:15 AM
All I will say is that while there are many good, valid points on both sides of the Rick argument, I so wish we could judge him as the head coach of a stable, complete team. He hasn't had one for 2 years. And that sucks. For him, and for us. You have to ask yourself, "How much of this is Rick being Rick, and how much of it is Rick dealing with Pacers scenario #3250948 and he has to adapt AGAIN?"

Jose Slaughter
03-13-2006, 12:18 AM
Bball

Or Jay or whoever......

With the type players that Bird is gathering & the type of game he invisions them playing, who would be the best coach to bring in to lead them?

Bball
03-13-2006, 12:19 AM
All I will say is that while there are many good, valid points on both sides of the Rick argument, I so wish we could judge him as the head coach of a stable, complete team. He hasn't had one for 2 years. And that sucks. For him, and for us. You have to ask yourself, "How much of this is Rick being Rick, and how much of it is Rick dealing with Pacers scenario #3250948 and he has to adapt AGAIN?"

I think it gets simplified when it gets down to one play. What does he go to at the end of these games?

Was "letting AJ go to work" really the best option for this team when all we were needing was one basket?

-Bball

Evan_The_Dude
03-13-2006, 12:36 AM
Bball

Or Jay or whoever......

With the type players that Bird is gathering & the type of game he invisions them playing, who would be the best coach to bring in to lead them?

Larry Bird...

Mordecaii
03-13-2006, 01:23 AM
I was so disgusted with the last quarter and a half of that game that I have to post my comments on it. It was truly fun to watch the game in the first half, players were coming off of screens and Jeff Foster was killing them inside. Ball movement was crisp, and everyone was passing.

Then came the second half, and just like the last few games the ball stopped moving around and started being held. Players were dribbling too much and looking for their own shots. Player movement was down. I lost count of the number of times the ball should have been thrown inside because DH or DG could have come up with a better shot than SJax or AJ.

By the way, that's another thing I want to mention... I heard a few people commenting on a "bad game" by DH, but I can hardly blame him for it. What is he supposed to do when his team won't throw him the ball? I know he had some stupid fouls, and unfortunately that's still going to happen for a little while, but if the team would throw him the ball a little more often, it would really help. I also want to know why DH is setting high screens in the offense? He's running all over the place in the half court sets, and he doesn't even have a chance to post up. How is he supposed to get good position when he has to run all over the court? Do you ever see Shaq doing that? I think DH is being used wrong in the offense.

Another thing that bothers me is that it seems like DG stopped looking for his shot. I can remember a lot of times when he had a wide open shot or drove it to the basket only to pass the ball. He is a good shooter, why isn't he taking those? Why is it that it seems like everyone but Peja, SJax, and AJ are afraid to shoot the ball? Are they afraid of Rick taking them out? I'm not sure what's going on, but a lot of things don't seem right, and Danny not taking enough shots is one of them.

I'm forced to blame the coaches for this loss and quite a few others. When we start out with such excellent offense in the first half, and then completely move away from it to the travesty that the Pacers tried to run in the second half, it is the coaches fault. If RC didn't like it, he could have pulled out the players making the bad choices, but obviously he didn't so I can only assume that he thought they were making the best decisions.

Why is AJ turning into a wannabe scorer? He is a POINT GUARD, point guards are supposed to run the offense and focus on getting others involved, but everytime the second half rolls around in games now I can count on AJ turning into a poor version of Marbury. Another thing that really irks me about AJ is that he is not a good 3 point shooter, but I see him throw up quite a few. He can make the ones in the corner but I can't remember him making a 3 pointer from farther out like the top of the key... I wish he would actually realize what he is and isn't capable of and stick to it.

Jeff Foster was incredible, he really outplayed everyone today. I'm fairly certain that the Raptors worked to shut him down in the second half, in which case others should have been open but no one took advantage of it. I'm really proud of Foster though, I wish some of our other players would work harder.

SJax looked like he was in pain quite a few times tonight. I saw him reaching down to either his calf or ankle more than once, and he limped around quite a bit. I'm starting to wonder if he's playing through some sort of injury. If so, I can understand him not driving to the basket as much but I still can't excuse his excessive number of shots. He's probably one of the few guys on the team who can consistently create shots for himself that he has the potential to make, but today in the second half it seemed like he took everyone else out of the offense by taking so many shots. I don't care if he would have made 100% of them, by not getting others involved it causes them to go cold and the team is worse off overall.

It seems like each game is getting more and more painful to watch. I'm honestly not sure how long I can deal with these mediocre decisions made by the coaches and the players. Some big changes need to happen to this team. Either Rick Carlisle needs to do what he hasn't been able to do since he started coaching and change his offensive philosophy to suit his players or he needs to leave the Pacers. Either certain members of our team need to realize that getting the entire team involved is most important or they need to be traded. Either some of our young players need to start taking advantage of the wide open shots they get or someone needs to convince them to. And finally, either our team needs to be able to stay relatively healthy for a season or we need to get some new players who can.

CableKC
03-13-2006, 01:34 AM
I think it gets simplified when it gets down to one play. What does he go to at the end of these games?

Was "letting AJ go to work" really the best option for this team when all we were needing was one basket?

-Bball
That is sort of wierd there........isn't this the 2nd game where AJ took either the last shot ( this game ) or took the last series of shots ( in the Houston loss )?

Going to AJ as the #1 or #2 scoring option in game winning situation doesn't always seem to work.....I wouldn't mind AJ taking those quick 3rd QTR....when we are in a slump and need to some scoring off the bench...type scoring....but I'm at the point where I wouldn't mind seeing....I don't know.....our best shooter take the shot that may put us up with seconds left.

Even in this Toronto game.......SJax has a tendency to abuse the Toronto defense....I wouldn't have minded SJax taking that last shot.

AJ just doesn't seem to be clutch in game winning situations......

waterjater
03-13-2006, 02:52 AM
I was so disgusted with the last quarter and a half of that game that I have to post my comments on it. It was truly fun to watch the game in the first half, players were coming off of screens and Jeff Foster was killing them inside. Ball movement was crisp, and everyone was passing.

Then came the second half, and just like the last few games the ball stopped moving around and started being held. Players were dribbling too much and looking for their own shots. Player movement was down. I lost count of the number of times the ball should have been thrown inside because DH or DG could have come up with a better shot than SJax or AJ.

By the way, that's another thing I want to mention... I heard a few people commenting on a "bad game" by DH, but I can hardly blame him for it. What is he supposed to do when his team won't throw him the ball? I know he had some stupid fouls, and unfortunately that's still going to happen for a little while, but if the team would throw him the ball a little more often, it would really help. I also want to know why DH is setting high screens in the offense? He's running all over the place in the half court sets, and he doesn't even have a chance to post up. How is he supposed to get good position when he has to run all over the court? Do you ever see Shaq doing that? I think DH is being used wrong in the offense.

Another thing that bothers me is that it seems like DG stopped looking for his shot. I can remember a lot of times when he had a wide open shot or drove it to the basket only to pass the ball. He is a good shooter, why isn't he taking those? Why is it that it seems like everyone but Peja, SJax, and AJ are afraid to shoot the ball? Are they afraid of Rick taking them out? I'm not sure what's going on, but a lot of things don't seem right, and Danny not taking enough shots is one of them.

I'm forced to blame the coaches for this loss and quite a few others. When we start out with such excellent offense in the first half, and then completely move away from it to the travesty that the Pacers tried to run in the second half, it is the coaches fault. If RC didn't like it, he could have pulled out the players making the bad choices, but obviously he didn't so I can only assume that he thought they were making the best decisions.

Why is AJ turning into a wannabe scorer? He is a POINT GUARD, point guards are supposed to run the offense and focus on getting others involved, but everytime the second half rolls around in games now I can count on AJ turning into a poor version of Marbury. Another thing that really irks me about AJ is that he is not a good 3 point shooter, but I see him throw up quite a few. He can make the ones in the corner but I can't remember him making a 3 pointer from farther out like the top of the key... I wish he would actually realize what he is and isn't capable of and stick to it.

Jeff Foster was incredible, he really outplayed everyone today. I'm fairly certain that the Raptors worked to shut him down in the second half, in which case others should have been open but no one took advantage of it. I'm really proud of Foster though, I wish some of our other players would work harder.

SJax looked like he was in pain quite a few times tonight. I saw him reaching down to either his calf or ankle more than once, and he limped around quite a bit. I'm starting to wonder if he's playing through some sort of injury. If so, I can understand him not driving to the basket as much but I still can't excuse his excessive number of shots. He's probably one of the few guys on the team who can consistently create shots for himself that he has the potential to make, but today in the second half it seemed like he took everyone else out of the offense by taking so many shots. I don't care if he would have made 100% of them, by not getting others involved it causes them to go cold and the team is worse off overall.

It seems like each game is getting more and more painful to watch. I'm honestly not sure how long I can deal with these mediocre decisions made by the coaches and the players. Some big changes need to happen to this team. Either Rick Carlisle needs to do what he hasn't been able to do since he started coaching and change his offensive philosophy to suit his players or he needs to leave the Pacers. Either certain members of our team need to realize that getting the entire team involved is most important or they need to be traded. Either some of our young players need to start taking advantage of the wide open shots they get or someone needs to convince them to. And finally, either our team needs to be able to stay relatively healthy for a season or we need to get some new players who can.


Great stuff and I agree. The 2nd half seems to change from good ball movement and crisp cuts to lets ride out our lead and chase shots.

It seems everytime we get a sizable lead, players like Jax and AJ hunt shots to the detriment of the team. COACH- Pull them out when they start this crap!

Water

Aw Heck
03-13-2006, 04:01 AM
OK, so yeah, let's fire Carlisle. He's only had one season with a complete and healthy team, but yeah, let's fire him. He's had his fair shake apparently. Carlisle should've won a championship last year with that suspension-filled and injury-riddled team. And apparently we should be one of the best teams in the league despite the Artest saga and all of those injuries, (including two long-term injuries to 2 starters, one of whom is our All-Star best player).

Yep, Carlisle deserves no slack whatsoever. He should be expected to win with a 3 person bench.

:rolleyes:

Lithfan
03-13-2006, 04:30 AM
If Carlisle thought this was a well-coached team, they wouldn't have been out of timeouts tonight.

As soon as I saw Saras making the inbounds pass against Bosh and Tinsley on the bench I knew what was coming.

LET 'EM PLAY!!

I knew you woud make that anti-Saras comment.

What inbound pass are you talking about?

Rick is killing Saras at 2 once again... Thats enough for me to hate him.

able
03-13-2006, 05:27 AM
I knew you woud make that anti-Saras comment.

What inbound pass are you talking about?

Rick is killing Saras at 2 once again... Thats enough for me to hate him.

Any player that wants to play in the NBA or worse, be a starter, has to A: pay his dues; which means he has to prove he can do it before he gets to do it and B: should do this in the time and position that he is played in.
Your boy is failing in that regard, badly.
Any player "needing" to start to have any impact on a team is not a good player, if you can not do it in the minutes you are given (and most get a lot less minutes then Saras is getting) then the likelyhood of failure over more minutes is statistically to big to draw any entitlements from.

By now anyone that reads this board knows you are a Saras fan, not a Pacers fan, which is fine, but do not call out respected members of this community because they make any kind of remark on "your boy", as it shows a blatant disrespect to the poster in question.

Your "style" of posting is making it hard for "regular" members to post or even read this board, something that is not appreciated.

Lithfan
03-13-2006, 05:51 AM
Any player that wants to play in the NBA or worse, be a starter, has to A: pay his dues; which means he has to prove he can do it before he gets to do it and B: should do this in the time and position that he is played in.
Your boy is failing in that regard, badly.
Any player "needing" to start to have any impact on a team is not a good player, if you can not do it in the minutes you are given (and most get a lot less minutes then Saras is getting) then the likelyhood of failure over more minutes is statistically to big to draw any entitlements from.

By now anyone that reads this board knows you are a Saras fan, not a Pacers fan, which is fine, but do not call out respected members of this community because they make any kind of remark on "your boy", as it shows a blatant disrespect to the poster in question.

Your "style" of posting is making it hard for "regular" members to post or even read this board, something that is not appreciated.

1. You are right regarding minutes, he gets a lot and usually rookie should be happy with those minutes and any role. However he is different case - complete scrub at 2 and great PG if coach trusts him.

2. Never said that I'm Saras and not Pacers fan. This is exclusively yours conclusion.

3. Thanks for your elder "compliment" about my style. I knew you lovvvvve it. You and Jay. :-o

But please, explain me how does it make "hard for "regular" members to post or even read this board" ???
IMHO you should look through a very diverted prism to see blatancy in my posts.

Bball
03-13-2006, 06:18 AM
I knew you woud make that anti-Saras comment.

What inbound pass are you talking about?

Rick is killing Saras at 2 once again... Thats enough for me to hate him.

Earlier this year (like as recent as a couple of weeks ago) Saras was working hard feeding Harrison and Granger the ball.

I just thought about that.... Has Tinsley's return and Saras' reassignment and different spot on the eggtimer rotations had an affect on Harrison (and Granger) getting fed the ball? ...Or is it just coincidence that Harrison's numbers are down?

-Bball

Lithfan
03-13-2006, 06:20 AM
Earlier this year (like as recent as a couple of weeks ago) Saras was working hard feeding Harrison and Granger the ball.

I just thought about that.... Has Tinsley's return and Saras' reassignment and different spot on the eggtimer rotations had an affect on Harrison (and Granger) getting fed the ball? ...Or is it just coincidence that Harrison's numbers are down?

-Bball

You are just saying all the things I want to say, but afraid to be "blatant".
Or get a blatant comment.

It's like I'm logged in with your user name.

THANK YOU ;)

Hicks
03-13-2006, 06:25 AM
I doubt it's Tinsley because the last time Harrison had a good game was in Houston, and Tinsley was the backup PG that game.

Kestas
03-13-2006, 06:37 AM
With the type players that Bird is gathering & the type of game he invisions them playing, who would be the best coach to bring in to lead them?

European coach would be very interesting to watch in this scenario. some Serbian star, for example.. I know it sounds absurd, but watch my words - it will not sound so in, say, ten years. probably ;) coz right now majority (but not all, obviously) of NBA coaches are poor in terms of teamplay organization and using the individuall tallent of every player to help the team. individual skills are still more important than teamplay in most of the teams. Also I think that if Pacers were to be looking for a new coach (which I can't see happening very soon though), maybe college basketball would be a place to look, I don't know.. they need a visionary, someone with an old-school concept, someone commited to teamplay both in deffense and offense. as i said, the best specialists in this field are in Europe, some are in South America imho, but maybe I'm wrong..
anyways, Carlisle is not too bad imho (though I am hardly in a position to judge him). maybe they'll get over it eventually. he makes some obvious mistakes (like Saras at SG, overreliance on Johnson, failure to force more ball movement on offense), but maybe that's temporary or he is doing those things against his will? ;)

besides, I think Pacers lack chemistry, players are not friends enough, if I may say so. Saras told that in his interviews and that clearly influences the quality of the game. this is, in part, the coach's fault as well.. allthough it looks as if this is the disease of the whole NBA. in any case, he should try to encourage players to communicate between themselves off-court more imho. team chemistry is what turns a good team into a great one. without it you will never be great, however good are your players. team chemistry is the main weapon that countries like Lithuania or Italy are using in the international competitions. they compensate the lack of athleticism or individual tallent easily with a good coaching and good feeling of each other on the court.

able
03-13-2006, 06:40 AM
Earlier this year (like as recent as a couple of weeks ago) Saras was working hard feeding Harrison and Granger the ball.

I just thought about that.... Has Tinsley's return and Saras' reassignment and different spot on the eggtimer rotations had an affect on Harrison (and Granger) getting fed the ball? ...Or is it just coincidence that Harrison's numbers are down?

-Bball
There is of course some correlation between the two, to think different would be narrow minded, however it has far more to do with the usage of DH by Rick then anything else.
As someone noticed earlier Rick is using DH far more in the high post, which makes that David is often out of position for the feed, yesterday Rick was riding the hot hand of Jeff early on and when David came in for Danny he made David play the high post with Jefff down low, david is not (yet?) ready to play there as effective as down low.
Thw one oir two possesion he went low he one time got a feed from JT for a dunk and anoth4er one he made a "JO" move and scored. But that is about it.
I assume more ppl then me and Al and Quin were amazed that the mismatch down low with david being guarded by a 6.1 or 6.4 player was not "abused" but Rick kept calling hte plays and none for David.
Neither AJ nor Saras gave the ball to David once, so I must therefore conclude that it was the specific wish of the coach not to go there.

Also these past two games David was called for more P's then the 10 games before that, but that should not be a reason to not call his number, though the previous game against the Raptors he had 3 offensive fouls and a few this game as well, it seems he just picks them up against the Raptors specifically, perhaps that is rick's reason.

able
03-13-2006, 06:43 AM
1. You are right regarding minutes, he gets a lot and usually rookie should be happy with those minutes and any role. However he is different case - complete scrub at 2 and great PG if coach trusts him.

2. Never said that I'm Saras and not Pacers fan. This is exclusively yours conclusion.

3. Thanks for your elder "compliment" about my style. I knew you lovvvvve it. You and Jay. :-o

But please, explain me how does it make "hard for "regular" members to post or even read this board" ???
IMHO you should look through a very diverted prism to see blatancy in my posts.

1: You "EARN" trust, it's not a God given right to get it.
2: you serious here?
3: your incessant attempt to turn every thread into a "Saras" thread have grown weary on people.

Kestas
03-13-2006, 06:48 AM
Any player that wants to play in the NBA or worse, be a starter, has to A: pay his dues; which means he has to prove he can do it before he gets to do it and B: should do this in the time and position that he is played in.
Your boy is failing in that regard, badly.
Any player "needing" to start to have any impact on a team is not a good player, if you can not do it in the minutes you are given (and most get a lot less minutes then Saras is getting) then the likelyhood of failure over more minutes is statistically to big to draw any entitlements from.


from the Pacers home page:

----------------
Pacers Plus-Minus 2005-06


A tool used by coaches for years <....> makes it easier to see who is performing above - or below - the norm.

THROUGH MARCH 10 (31-28)

<TABLE borderColor=#003366 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="95%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD align=left bgColor=#003366>ACTIVE
PLAYERS</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#003366>GAMES</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#003366>MINUTES</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#003366>PLUS-
MINUS</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#003366>PER
48 MINS.</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#003366>PER
GAME </TD><TD align=right bgColor=#003366>LAST
GAME </TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#ffcc00>Team Average</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>59</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>2,837</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+149</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+2.5</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+2.5</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+2</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sarunas Jasikevicius</TD><TD align=right>59</TD><TD align=right>1,350</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+117</TD><TD align=right>+4.2</TD><TD align=right>+2.0</TD><TD align=right>+4</TD></TR><TR><TD>Austin Croshere</TD><TD align=right>39</TD><TD align=right>990</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+108</TD><TD align=right>+5.2</TD><TD align=right>+2.8</TD><TD align=right>DNP</TD></TR><TR><TD>Peja Stojakovic</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=right>616</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+108</TD><TD align=right>+8.4</TD><TD align=right>+6.4</TD><TD align=right>+5</TD></TR><TR><TD>Anthony Johnson</TD><TD align=right>52</TD><TD align=right>1,327</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+88</TD><TD align=right>+3.2</TD><TD align=right>+1.7</TD><TD align=right>-4</TD></TR><TR><TD>Fred Jones</TD><TD align=right>56</TD><TD align=right>1,543</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+81</TD><TD align=right>+2.5</TD><TD align=right>+1.4</TD><TD align=right>DNP</TD></TR><TR><TD>Jeff Foster</TD><TD align=right>43</TD><TD align=right>1,040</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+75</TD><TD align=right>+3.5</TD><TD align=right>+1.7</TD><TD align=right>+5</TD></TR><TR><TD>Jermaine O'Neal</TD><TD align=right>35</TD><TD align=right>1,250</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+55</TD><TD align=right>+2.1</TD><TD align=right>+1.6</TD><TD align=right>DNP</TD></TR><TR><TD>Scot Pollard</TD><TD align=right>32</TD><TD align=right>600</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+49</TD><TD align=right>+3.9</TD><TD align=right>+1.5</TD><TD align=right>-5</TD></TR><TR><TD>Stephen Jackson</TD><TD align=right>59</TD><TD align=right>2,107</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+40</TD><TD align=right>+0.9</TD><TD align=right>+0.7</TD><TD align=right>+1</TD></TR><TR><TD>Eddie Gill</TD><TD align=right>33</TD><TD align=right>94</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>+13</TD><TD align=right>+6.6</TD><TD align=right>+0.4</TD><TD align=right>DNP</TD></TR><TR><TD>David Harrison</TD><TD align=right>49</TD><TD align=right>733</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>-14</TD><TD align=right>-0.9</TD><TD align=right>-0.3</TD><TD align=right>+1</TD></TR><TR><TD>Danny Granger</TD><TD align=right>55</TD><TD align=right>1,188</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>-38</TD><TD align=right>-1.5</TD><TD align=right>-0.7</TD><TD align=right>+1</TD></TR><TR><TD>Jamaal Tinsley</TD><TD align=right>26</TD><TD align=right>701</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffcc00>-40</TD><TD align=right>-2.7</TD><TD align=right>-1.5</TD><TD align=right>+2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
-----

have a good day!

able
03-13-2006, 06:54 AM
Some people, like coaches, use their eyes and "other" stats to decide a player playing well.

Team of 5 stats for instance, but again, plus minus are an ignorable percentage of the contemplation, ou posting them in two threads at the same time does not make your case stronger if it is the only real argument you bring to the table.

Kestas
03-13-2006, 07:02 AM
Some people, like coaches, use their eyes and "other" stats to decide a player playing well.

Team of 5 stats for instance, but again, plus minus are an ignorable percentage of the contemplation, ou posting them in two threads at the same time does not make your case stronger if it is the only real argument you bring to the table.

I noticed the other thread post-factum
and I'm glad you acknowledge we do have a real argument in favour of Saras ;) and it truly is a real argument as opposite to subjective impressions from some games imho. Saras has been usefull to the team it seems. and I will not be asking about your "real arguments", coz I really don't care. We all can see his percentages are low, he is inconsistent, assists to turnovers ratio is not good (this all could do with the SG position he's thrown into from time to time. or maybe not.). we all would like him and the Pacers to play much better..

able
03-13-2006, 07:20 AM
I noticed the other thread post-factum
and I'm glad you acknowledge we do have a real argument in favour of Saras ;) and it truly is a real argument as opposite to subjective impressions from some games imho. Saras has been usefull to the team it seems. and I will not be asking about your "real arguments", coz I really don't care. We all can see his percentages are low, he is inconsistent, assists to turnovers ratio is not good (this all could do with the SG position he's thrown into from time to time. or maybe not.). we all would like him and the Pacers to play much better..
Sorry I mistook you for posting the other thread, nonetheles I must say that I do not consider the plus-minus an argument.

Unlike some, I am not that fuzzed about how he is doing, though I'd prefer him to shoot a better percentage, and I would like to see way less of the no-look turnovers, but I rate him as a potentially very good back-up PG, and thus my expectations are less.
In my opinion he simply does not have the handles to ever become a real good NBA PG, let's hope time proves me wrong.

On that same note: I do not htink AJ has the handles either, but then he is a back-up PG so there is no mistake about that.
If you've seen the last games where Tinsley's minutes have gone up then you will have seen what "real handles" are, the ball control is absolutely amazing and his pases (d'ya se that one to Jeff, one handed bullet, thrown like a baseball, straight into Jeff's hands?) are of the more then very good kind.
YES he has demonstrated the last 2 years that he can get injured, and YES the Pacers have admited that he was rushed back everytime, aggrevating the injury instead of healing it.
This also says something about the guy, namely his willingness to play hurt(ing) which is something a lot of people "overlook".

Whether he is here next year I do not know, but if he isn't then we sure as hell are getting another starting PG in, that much I know for sure, all I can say is that I hope he stays healthy and does it here, because I am not looking forward to having to play yet another very good PG while we are not having one.

D-BONE
03-13-2006, 08:04 AM
I have not come to a final opinion on Carlysle. There are many good points both pro and con about him in this thread. By season's end I may be ready to say he's a big factor in our mediocrity and thus needs to go. But I could also come to the conclusion he deserves his final contract year with (hopefully!) a more stable team situation. For me personally, it's not yet time to make a final decision despite the fact I'm very frustrated with how we're playing, particularly the number of losses to losing teams and even worse the ones that have taken place at home.

The main reason I won't yet definitively trash RC is b/c IMO the players on this team aren't THAT good. Any of them including the so-called injured or recently returned "big guns". Look at our roster in its entirety. I'd say there's nobody on there you can say is a sure-fire star. Most of our guys fall under the solid NBA player cateogry IMO. In other words, we've got a bunch of average to above average players without any true great players. So right there is a big problem. Find one outstanding team without at least a couple guys playing above the average to above average level.

Some people on this board speak as if JT and JO are big-time players whose return will immediately elevate us back to championship or ECF contention. I say that's BS. People always point to 2004 to show the types of players these guys are. One season proves nothing. Flashy passes, finger wagging, stats, all-star appearances and bravado prove nothing until you win at a high level and contend consistently over time being the unquestionned team leaders. I'd argue in 2004 that take Reggie and Ron-Ron off that team and see what JO and JT do. In other words-OK and I don't care if Reg was no longer the high scorer, glamour guy, etc.- they were the guys that held that team together and made it go.

Now, onto the rest of our lot. AJ-solid but not great. Stojakovic-good shooter but unproven as to impact on Kings winning and not IMO any great option at the end of games plus is basically average in other areas, Jack-solid defense, OK scorer (as opposed to a shooter), overall only somewhat above average, Fred Jones-regardless of how good he plays at times destined to be a sixth man or worse. Well, but we've got all that depth so we should be able to overcome teams that way. Not consistently. We've got a deep group of average to somewhat above average players with no proven difference makers. I'll give you that JO is probably the closest thing we've got to that type of player, but I'm not convinced he's ever gonna lead us anyplace else.

So, all that said, RC could still be a big factor in this scenario. However, you have to admit that he's been handed a group that is not a sure-fire championship contender even with all its pieces in place. Barring what happens the rest of this season's testing ground for what direction the team goes in this summer, right now personnel-wise the only two guys on this squad I can say I would be sad to see go would be Foster and Granger. Everybody else is downright painful to watch/hear about.

Unclebuck
03-13-2006, 08:14 AM
Many of you are overestimating how good this current Pacers team should be. And not just by a little bit either, by a lot. Is this team good enough to beat good teams on the road. No way.

Are they good enough to beat teams like, Nets, Wizards, Celtics, Sixers, Rockets, Hornets, and Raptors. Yes they are, but not all the time, the fact they have gone 4-3 is pretty darn good, I'd take that every time.

But that only tells half the story, you have to consider that they have played 7 of 8 on the road, with the games piled on top of each other, players have been in and out of the lineup, a few of the players have been playing on borrowed time and fumes (Pollard), three other players are rookies (DH basically is), another player is not NBA caliber (Gill), another player is just coming back from 6 weeks off (Tinsley).

To expect a record better than 4-4 is completely unrealistic, I hate to admit that, it is frustrating to me, but that is where we are. Let's see what they do the next 8 games, 7 of which are at home.

How many teams are above .500 on the road this season. 5 teams, Pistons, Heat, Suns, Mavs, Spurs. Well the Pacers just went 4-3. That isn't too bad.

skyfire
03-13-2006, 08:27 AM
Rick has had to face alot of adversity since he has come to Indy. I think he has generally responded very well, but it takes time. Just like the team is adapting to play a new system, so is he. Having great individual players like JO and Ron for the Pacers, it seems iso's have become ingrained in his coaching. He will sort it out, it will just take a while.

Until JO returns this team is missing its anchor and wont be able to truly establish any sort of identity. Until then they are essentially just a jumpshooting team.

D-BONE
03-13-2006, 08:46 AM
Many of you are overestimating how good this current Pacers team should be. And not just by a little bit either, by a lot. Is this team good enough to beat good teams on the road. No way.

Are they good enough to beat teams like, Nets, Wizards, Celtics, Sixers, Rockets, Hornets, and Raptors. Yes they are, but not all the time, the fact they have gone 4-3 is pretty darn good, I'd take that every time.

But that only tells half the story, you have to consider that they have played 7 of 8 on the road, with the games piled on top of each other, players have been in and out of the lineup, a few of the players have been playing on borrowed time and fumes (Pollard), three other players are rookies (DH basically is), another player is not NBA caliber (Gill), another player is just coming back from 6 weeks off (Tinsley).

To expect a record better than 4-4 is completely unrealistic, I hate to admit that, it is frustrating to me, but that is where we are. Let's see what they do the next 8 games, 7 of which are at home.

How many teams are above .500 on the road this season. 5 teams, Pistons, Heat, Suns, Mavs, Spurs. Well the Pacers just went 4-3. That isn't too bad.

UB, I in effect agree w/you. Any talk of championship-contending aspirations for this team, even in the cautious optimism of the preseason, pre-Ron-Ron debacle, was unrealistic. Despite my previous rant, I do believe the group we have plays hard and basically does about the best they can. I won't absolve RC completely from any responsibility, nor will I implicate him either. I'm withholding forming a opinion until this year's done. For purposes of analyizing where the team's going off-season, I hope to see more of JT and hopefully JO for more than just a few games. Perhaps I'm wrong and both of them back in major roles proves to be a significant difference.

sixthman
03-13-2006, 09:03 AM
Carlisle needs to quit being so scared to try something different.

What we saw yesterday was frustrating and different. Tinsley might have helped and I would expect to see him more in crunch time now that AJ has had his chances to deliver.

Maybe the reality is that without a post presence and a guy who can create for himself, this team is going to struggle in crunch time until our post presence returns.

Jackson and Freddie are the best we have at creating for themselves and Freddie, of course, was not playing and I've read volumns of venom on this board about Jack getting the final shot.

Teams are playing their best defense at crunch time and are using their best defensive match ups. Under these circumstances, the guys we have playing presently are going to struggle --- no matter who is the coach. When JO returns, the picture will change somewhat as he can draw double teams and make Peja and Jackson more effective.

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 10:21 AM
Bball

Or Jay or whoever......

With the type players that Bird is gathering & the type of game he invisions them playing, who would be the best coach to bring in to lead them?

Great question.

The obvious part of the answer is that it probably won't be a member of the current "in vogue" NBA coaching fraternity, and its probably not somebody on the collegiate level because those coaches are even bigger control freaks.

I do wonder if Mike Brown, with a bit more experience, could be that guy. Bob Hill is a personal favorite and while his situation with Seattle's roster is tough, his overall coaching philosophy is more sound than the others. Unfortunately, he'll never get a real chance to prove it.

The reincarnated Pat Riley is showing signs of letting his team play a bit more, like he did in Los Angeles.

Paul Westphal and Paul Westhead, IMO, deserve better NBA teams than the ones they've coached. They're better than D'Antoni, for example, but he was in the right place at the right time with the Suns.

USA Basketball is doing a pretty bad job at two things - turning out players with fundamentals and turning our coaches that are original thinkers. Of course, the majority of the criticism is always directed at the players and not the lemming-like coaches.

I'm not really down on Rick's coaching as much as I'm down on how he's trying to do it. He's shown much more flexibility than originally advertised but the problem is that he always reverts back to the same thing even if it is a bad fit for his current team. Then they'll struggle for a while and he'll adjust, but as soon as it starts working again he keeps trying to take them back to his comfort zone. IMO, he needs to stay in their comfort zone.

His (and its not just him) lack of trust in his players in maddening. These guys are pros - let them make plays without calling so many timeouts or shouting out all the plays from the sidelines.

For what its worth, I trust Tinsley's court vision more than Rick's obsessive play calling. And if they were allowed to play that way with Tinsley and Saras, I bet many of us would be happier with Saras as the backup, too.

SoupIsGood
03-13-2006, 10:27 AM
Many of you are overestimating how good this current Pacers team should be. And not just by a little bit either, by a lot. Is this team good enough to beat good teams on the road. No way.

Are they good enough to beat teams like, Nets, Wizards, Celtics, Sixers, Rockets, Hornets, and Raptors. Yes they are, but not all the time, the fact they have gone 4-3 is pretty darn good, I'd take that every time.

But that only tells half the story, you have to consider that they have played 7 of 8 on the road, with the games piled on top of each other, players have been in and out of the lineup, a few of the players have been playing on borrowed time and fumes (Pollard), three other players are rookies (DH basically is), another player is not NBA caliber (Gill), another player is just coming back from 6 weeks off (Tinsley).

To expect a record better than 4-4 is completely unrealistic, I hate to admit that, it is frustrating to me, but that is where we are. Let's see what they do the next 8 games, 7 of which are at home.

How many teams are above .500 on the road this season. 5 teams, Pistons, Heat, Suns, Mavs, Spurs. Well the Pacers just went 4-3. That isn't too bad.


At this point, I'm just ecstatic everytime we win without JO. It's becoming clear that we miss him. We are still in a "survival" mode right now.

#31
03-13-2006, 10:27 AM
Figures, I leave to work on my cars for one hour while we're up 10 points. I come back, and we've lost the game. I have to agree with Jermaniac, losing leads and losing close games will happen SOMETIMES, but when it becomes pretty consistent, it's a problem with coaching. Carlisle needs to quit being so scared to try something different.

This is true and i agree...

Lithfan
03-13-2006, 10:46 AM
1: You "EARN" trust, it's not a God given right to get it.
2: you serious here?
3: your incessant attempt to turn every thread into a "Saras" thread have grown weary on people.

2: I am
3: Its you and not me who turned this thread into Saras thread...

denyfizle
03-13-2006, 10:55 AM
Yeah, Im with Jermaniac on this one. I called it too before the Pacers hit the floor for the last play. It was either an ISO for Jacko or AJ driving ala Fred Jones. :shakehead: It's just stoooooooooopppp i mean, do you really think AJ will get any calls in the clutch? and just Carlisle's predictability is ridiculous. RIDICULOUS! O well, Peja choked as warned by the Sacto trolls. You could tell with the reaction on his face that he didn't know what the hell he was doing prior to dribbling that ball in Bosh's hands.

We have one of the most CLUTCH players in the WORLD. Sarunas Jasikevicius. Why not try to run a play for him or at least let him run the play for the last shot. Jeeeeeeeez. You know AJ and Jacko will most definitely not pass it up especially if the play is called an ISO for them regardless if they're triple teamed. They're just that type of players. Then again as stubborn as Rick is with his play calling, I guess that's just what we're going to have to live and die with.

Unclebuck
03-13-2006, 11:00 AM
A few of you want Rick to try something new. Like what?

denyfizle
03-13-2006, 11:01 AM
Many of you are overestimating how good this current Pacers team should be. And not just by a little bit either, by a lot. Is this team good enough to beat good teams on the road. No way.

Are they good enough to beat teams like, Nets, Wizards, Celtics, Sixers, Rockets, Hornets, and Raptors. Yes they are, but not all the time, the fact they have gone 4-3 is pretty darn good, I'd take that every time.

But that only tells half the story, you have to consider that they have played 7 of 8 on the road, with the games piled on top of each other, players have been in and out of the lineup, a few of the players have been playing on borrowed time and fumes (Pollard), three other players are rookies (DH basically is), another player is not NBA caliber (Gill), another player is just coming back from 6 weeks off (Tinsley).

To expect a record better than 4-4 is completely unrealistic, I hate to admit that, it is frustrating to me, but that is where we are. Let's see what they do the next 8 games, 7 of which are at home.

How many teams are above .500 on the road this season. 5 teams, Pistons, Heat, Suns, Mavs, Spurs. Well the Pacers just went 4-3. That isn't too bad.


the fact of the matter is we always end up having a good chance of winning in the dying seconds and we come up with the worst play possible. with the exception of that Philly win coz of the great pass by Runi and cut by Jacko, all our plays in the end game have been painstakingly one dimensional and predictable. we've lost a good 5-10 games based on knucklehead play-calling, Anthony Johnson and Jacko in the end game. again it's not about the other things they do good like not getting injured etc. it's a matter of are we really going to keep on doing things that obviously don't work! whtether it's Fred Jones being ISO at the end of the third quarter or AJ forcing a turnaround jumpshot in front of a defender, i mean CMON! if that's our last play then I'd rather Runi just hoist it everytime at least I know the guy is Clutch and is a great shooter.

denyfizle
03-13-2006, 11:05 AM
A few of you want Rick to try something new. Like what?


like that screen play from top of the key Byron Scott ran for David West for a wide open look at the 3 last Friday. just imagine if Runi or Peja was given that open look! Chances are they'll hit it 8/10 times. if ya'll say RC is such a great coach, he should come up with something better than "hey (insert AJ, Jack or JO) be creative and take your defender one on one, we'll hope you make the shot and if you don't we'll do it again next time and the next and again and again because eventually you will hit it!"

Jermaniac
03-13-2006, 11:08 AM
A few of you want Rick to try something new. Like what?Like Ummmmmm how about not setting up his damn rotations before the game starts.

How about letting the hot players play once. Jack plays like absolute crap sometimes and he plays 12 straight minutes because of the stupid rotation Rick has. But when its going great for him the guy takes him out and doesnt play him for 5-6 minutes. He never rides the hot hand.

And when we have a lead he doesnt have no killer instinct and he plays this stupid prevent NFL type game, that always loses us the lead. One would think an NBA coach would see a problem with it.

McKeyFan
03-13-2006, 11:15 AM
That play from Runi to Jax to win in Philly was planned to be an iso to AJ. Jax said so in the postgame.

Last night's final play was not frustrating because AJ's number was called. As some note, if Jax had choked we'd be hollering too. The problem is that it was an iso. No playmaking, no cutting, no screen, no pick and roll. Safe, even lazy, coaching, imo.

And I agree that Runi should get some more chances in the clutch. He's hit a couple of big ones at the end, missed at least one, made one bad pass, made a couple of other good ones. But I think he has the mindset, and I think he brings instant playmaking at the end rather than AJ and Jax who are thinking shoot first.

All that talk about the new offense was bull*****, apparently.

One other thing. Every time, subliminally, when I think of that cool new offense we had, I think of Pollard. Somehow he was key to all that, and missing him in the lineup hurts us.

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 11:37 AM
I knew you woud make that anti-Saras comment.

What inbound pass are you talking about?

Rick is killing Saras at 2 once again... Thats enough for me to hate him.

:wtf:

chill out man, that wasn't an anti-Saras statement, that was an anti-predictable coaching statement.

If Saras was throwing the in-bounds pass on the last play, which IS the play I'm referring to, then it was obvious that whomever received the ball was not going to be making another pass. If I'm defending against that play, as soon as the ball is inbounded I'm sending all five defenders to hawk the ball.

Two more points:

1) I hate having a PG as the trigger man on that play. Heck yeah they'd put Bosh against him, with his long arms. Especially considering we were out of timeouts. We played right into what they wanted us to do, the only possible passing lane was to AJ at the top of the key.

2) If Saras is going to be in the game for the final play, he should be the guy receiving the inbounds pass because he's at least a double threat(pass or shoot) and that can keep the defense "honest". He and Tinsley are the only two guys on the roster that can do this and neither one of them were part of the play (although Saras was 'in the game', unlike Tinsley.)

But back to my original comment, you've really got to chill out. That comment had nothing to do with Saras whatsoever except to identify that everyone on the planet knows what we're doing if he's in the guy making the in-bounds pass.

Shade
03-13-2006, 12:01 PM
:wtf:

chill out man, that wasn't an anti-Saras statement, that was an anti-predictable coaching statement.

If Saras was throwing the in-bounds pass on the last play, which IS the play I'm referring to, then it was obvious that whomever received the ball was not going to be making another pass. If I'm defending against that play, as soon as the ball is inbounded I'm sending all five defenders to hawk the ball.

Two more points:

1) I hate having a PG as the trigger man on that play. Heck yeah they'd put Bosh against him, with his long arms. Especially considering we were out of timeouts. We played right into what they wanted us to do, the only possible passing lane was to AJ at the top of the key.

2) If Saras is going to be in the game for the final play, he should be the guy receiving the inbounds pass because he's at least a double threat(pass or shoot) and that can keep the defense "honest". He and Tinsley are the only two guys on the roster that can do this and neither one of them were part of the play (although Saras was 'in the game', unlike Tinsley.)

But back to my original comment, you've really got to chill out. That comment had nothing to do with Saras whatsoever except to identify that everyone on the planet knows what we're doing if he's in the guy making the in-bounds pass.

Yeah, why not have Tins inbound and Runi in the game then?

MagicRat
03-13-2006, 12:10 PM
Yeah, why not have Tins inbound and Runi in the game then?

I'd have Runi inbound to Jamaal and let Jamaal penetrate and kick.

The last (only?) game-winner Sarunas attempted was courtesy of #11.......

Lithfan
03-13-2006, 12:13 PM
:wtf:

chill out man, that wasn't an anti-Saras statement, that was an anti-predictable coaching statement.

If Saras was throwing the in-bounds pass on the last play, which IS the play I'm referring to, then it was obvious that whomever received the ball was not going to be making another pass. If I'm defending against that play, as soon as the ball is inbounded I'm sending all five defenders to hawk the ball.

Two more points:

1) I hate having a PG as the trigger man on that play. Heck yeah they'd put Bosh against him, with his long arms. Especially considering we were out of timeouts. We played right into what they wanted us to do, the only possible passing lane was to AJ at the top of the key.

2) If Saras is going to be in the game for the final play, he should be the guy receiving the inbounds pass because he's at least a double threat(pass or shoot) and that can keep the defense "honest". He and Tinsley are the only two guys on the roster that can do this and neither one of them were part of the play (although Saras was 'in the game', unlike Tinsley.)

But back to my original comment, you've really got to chill out. That comment had nothing to do with Saras whatsoever except to identify that everyone on the planet knows what we're doing if he's in the guy making the in-bounds pass.

Wow sorry.

It seems you are not as predictable as Carlisle, if you know what I mean.

Actually it was a compliment to Saras. But it was hard to realise it. Did you expected me to guess all this long logical chain of yours?

Probably I missed some discussion about inbounds passes...:rolleyes:

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 12:21 PM
I'm not predictable at all, so i wouldn't even try.

Being the son of a coach, somewhere along the line I learned to be "predictably unpredictable."

Somehow, that's been lost while training the current generation of coaches, although its why I love Bill Cowher as a coach.

Peck
03-13-2006, 12:25 PM
You guys are being way way way to kind to Larry Bird or Donnie Walsh or both.

We had 9 players dressed for that game 4 of which were point guards one of which would not see the floor for anything other than garbage time.

Of our 5 other players 1 was a shooting guard 2 were small forwards & 2 were centers.

1 of our centers is really a power forward & our other center sometimes has foul trouble.

When was the last time that Danny Granger was able to play the small forward spot on the floor?

It is downright negligent that we have not signed someone to help out. Carlisle is already stating that he thinks Foster is losing some from the fact that he has to play so much.

It's not Scott Pollard having a bad back is a suprise, well wait Rik Smits bad feet was a suprise so I guess.....

Anyway we are short on players & if it was for one game or two games I can see. But we are going on our 2nd month of being short.

I know that almost nobody agrees with me & nobody agreed with me then but we should have kept Samaki Walker. But since that ship has sailed we really need to sign some other big man for a 10 day contract.

This is only going to get worse.

Now as to Carlisle. There can be no doubt, when he gets nervous he figuratively speaking "runs home to momma".

In other words he becomes so obsessed with turnovers & transition defense that he forgets everything that was working up till that point. Thus we have prevent offense which gives us periods of 4-6 min. at a time without a fieldgoal.

Is it because he is forced to do this because of the players we have on the floor? IMO, no.

We run motion with a great deal of success at other times so even if defenses adjust to guard that we should adjust the flow to overcome that.

But that is not what Rick has ever done nor do I suspect he will ever do. It worked for a while when he had a couple of players who could get their shots off but now that Jax is the best option we have at getting his own shot I don't see as how this is a good idea.

But I still mostly blame TPTB for the recent slide because we have to many players playing out of position & some playing more min. than their bodys will allow.

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 12:32 PM
A few of you want Rick to try something new. Like what?

Let the PGs call the plays.

Run a read-and-react offense and let the players play.

Especially when shorthanded, we should aggressively seek easy/ transition baskets whenever possible and should (more) aggressively attack the offensive glass.

Its the coaches job to prepare the players so that they know when to attack the basket and when to set up a structured offense. They don't need a foreman shouting instructions at them all game long. If they aren't prepared enough to play without him over-coaching, then he's doing a lousy job of preparing them.

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 12:35 PM
Bball

Or Jay or whoever......

With the type players that Bird is gathering & the type of game he invisions them playing, who would be the best coach to bring in to lead them?

Don Nelson Senior. Or Junior.

able
03-13-2006, 12:47 PM
Samaki was a 400 K savings that has cost a lot more alreday. We do indeed need another "big" for some period of time.
What Jay is not saying, nor is Peck, but what I read between their lines is that players like Tinsley and Saras are the players the least in need of play-calling, they can create, most certainly Tinsley, whatever they want whenever they want and in this game that was certainly demonstrated by Tinsley a number of times.

Tinsley strength to get anywhere on the court he wants, with the ball, and deliver an assist is very rarely used nowadays, either because he is injured or because Rick doesn't let him.

If you want to run the type of play that was ran at the end, then Tinsley is about 300% better at it then AJ and the chances are way bigger that we score, from a pass, from his teardrop or from the line.

AJ however has "earned" those minutes and it will take perhaps another loss like this (to make it 3 ) before Rick is prepared to change that.

What Rick forgets is that it is "disheartening" for the other players to lose a game like this, when better options are available.

The only points Saras scored lat night were on an Ast from Tinsley.............

Harddrive7
03-13-2006, 12:47 PM
Bball

Or Jay or whoever......

With the type players that Bird is gathering & the type of game he invisions them playing, who would be the best coach to bring in to lead them?


What kind of team do you guys think that Bird is envisioning? Shooters, scorers, fundamentally sound players? Is he trying to put the 2000 team back together?

I often wonder if he is really so in love with Euro style ball if that's the direction that he's trying to go in?

I want to trust Bird, I really do. but if he is trying to put a Euro type club together, is that enough to win a ring in this league?

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 12:49 PM
Don Nelson Senior. Or Junior.

I agree. Unfortunately, Don Nelson, for as good a coach as he is, has become the "poster child" for so-called "soft" coaches.

I think that label is unfair, but that nomination is likely to draw a lot of criticism from the defense-first disciples.

Nellie is a hell of a coach, and he's almost always taken flawed teams and maximized thier performance. Maybe if Run-TMC would've stayed healthy, no Billy Owens expiriment, maybe if they had traded Chris Webber sooner and gotten a legit big man, with all of those "ifs" then maybe once in his career Nellie might've had a legit contender.

Nellie, as a GM, has always given Nellie the coach a lineup that is too soft to work with.

I'd be quite open to having Donn coach the Pacers with Larry's/ Donnie's players, however.

Lithfan
03-13-2006, 01:08 PM
Let the PGs call the plays.

Run a read-and-react offense and let the players play.

Especially when shorthanded, we should aggressively seek easy/ transition baskets whenever possible and should (more) aggressively attack the offensive glass.

Its the coaches job to prepare the players so that they know when to attack the basket and when to set up a structured offense. They don't need a foreman shouting instructions at them all game long. If they aren't prepared enough to play without him over-coaching, then he's doing a lousy job of preparing them.

Wow!
You are killing me today.

I anticipate that the next thing you are going to say is that Saras should be starting PG. :hmm:

In any case I think these are great suggestions.

Edit: Sorry but I would add that - play Saras at PG. Both Tins and AJ would do better at SG.

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 02:34 PM
No, I think he should be the combo guard off the bench and get 25-30 mpg backing up both guard spots. That's what I said before the season started, and now with Fred injured I think that's the right role for him.

Kestas
03-13-2006, 02:35 PM
Don Nelson Senior. Or Junior.

uuuh...!

I'd like that! Donnie (Jr.) is a good pal of Saras, he's been an assistant coach (along with three other assistants) of Lithuanian NT from the very start (1992 I think). During those years Lithuania had a lot of success and we have been as high as No 3 in FIBA mens' rankings at one point (currenty No 4). I think he actually learned a thing or two about the heavily team oriented tactics, that also incorporate individuall tallent. he should know zones well and that is a huge advantage as most NBA coaches still do not understand zones (neither ho to use them, nor how to play against them).
it would be nice to see him at the helm, I'm convinced he's not too young for the job. unless he still thinks he's not good enough himself.

and yeah, PG should be calling plays (according to instructions or some guidelines from the coach, obviously, but not real-time! timeouts and preparations are for that..), that's the essense of the real game imho..

Kstat
03-13-2006, 02:36 PM
There is no other coach I'd rather have coaching the Pacers than Don Nelson. I mean that in all sincerity.

CableKC
03-13-2006, 02:43 PM
Didn't someone mention Dennis Johnson being Bird's 2nd choice?

What's his coaching experieince? Wasn't he a teammate that Bird played with during his Celtics days ( just like Carlisle was )?

Is Bird that type of person to choose people that he is comfortable and trust and place them in positions of importance and power?

If not Dennis Johnson....then I would hope Eric Mussellman. No Don Nelson please......I like to have the team play some defense.

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 02:50 PM
Don Nelson is not the answer for this team.

Kstat
03-13-2006, 02:52 PM
I disagree. Zone defenses and Shawn Bradley are just the things this team needs.

Kestas
03-13-2006, 02:55 PM
If not Dennis Johnson....then I would hope Eric Mussellman. No Don Nelson please......I like to have the team play some defense.

what do you know about defense..
I mean how long is it since NBA made zones legal? they would clearly be effective in NBA (especially now, when US coaches can't play against them as all the international competitions show), but they are hardly ever used. still. imho only when a team learns how to mix -varios- zones with personal defense, it is deffending. the team that is strong in personal defense is good, but a team that knows zones is great. international squads have shown time and time again that even when lacking good personal defenders you can beat USA national teams by using clever zones. US coaches simply lose their heads then, they fail to adjust..
obviously, because NBA has a three seconds defensive violation (FIBA hasn't), zones have to be slightly modified. but they still can be effective.

or maybe I'm totally wrong about all this..

Peck
03-13-2006, 03:03 PM
I disagree. Zone defenses and Shawn Bradley are just the things this team needs.

As desperate as we are for body's right now I'd almost consider Shawn on a 10 day contract.:-o

J/K:devil:

Or am I?:blush:

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 03:03 PM
I disagree. Zone defenses and Shawn Bradley are just the things this team needs.

Do you honestly think Nellie is just a one-trick pony?

I realize he's added to his own reputation in recent seasons because of the Mav's well-documented softness. And I realize I'm older than a lot of you but I'm getting tired of this myopic view (not just your, but in general) of Don Nelson or coaches that are good on the offensive side of the ball.

His 1980s Bucks teams were not soft, at all.

But the 1980s Sixers and 1980s Celtics (damn them) were some of the best teams of all time, so the Bucks were rarely even in the ECFs.

Kstat
03-13-2006, 03:04 PM
Do you honestly think Nellie is just a one-trick pony?

I realize he's added to his own reputation in recent seasons because of the Mav's well-documented softness. And I realize I'm older than a lot of you but I'm getting tired of this myopic view (not just your, but in general) of Don Nelson or coaches that are good on the offensive side of the ball.

His 1980s Bucks teams were not soft, at all.

But the 1980s Sixers and 1980s Celtics (damn them) were some of the best teams of all time, so the Bucks were rarely even in the ECFs.

Nelson's gotten old an senile since then.

Not to mention his Bucks teams were mentally soft as tissue paper, regardless of their style of play. Anytime they got in a close series, they pretty much gagged on the pressure.

Peck
03-13-2006, 03:07 PM
Do you honestly think Nellie is just a one-trick pony?

I realize he's added to his own reputation in recent seasons because of the Mav's well-documented softness. And I realize I'm older than a lot of you but I'm getting tired of this myopic view (not just your, but in general) of Don Nelson or coaches that are good on the offensive side of the ball.

His 1980s Bucks teams were not soft, at all.

But the 1980s Sixers and 1980s Celtics (damn them) were some of the best teams of all time, so the Bucks were rarely even in the ECFs.

Sydney Moncrief was one of the most physical defenders for a guard I've ever seen.

Ricky Sobers was more physical & T.R. Dunn was close but Moncrief was something special.

Ricky Pierce wasn't a sissy for a small forward either. Terry Cummings always tore us apart & it seemed like whenever I would see him play he would have 15 rebound or more every game (at least it felt that way).

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 03:11 PM
Nelson's gotten old an senile since then.

Agreed. I never said the current version of Don would be good. But the point is, perhaps with a better defensive team we'd see less gimmicks from Nellie because he wouldn't need them. I'm not saying they Pacers should hire him, I agree his best days are in the past.

Donn, on the other hand, would be okay with me.

Kstat
03-13-2006, 03:12 PM
There is no more damming evidence than what Avery Johnson has done with basically the same group of players.

Clearly, Nelson doesn't even ATTEMPT to ask his teams to play D anymore.

Unclebuck
03-13-2006, 03:46 PM
Is it really necessary for me to comment on Don Nelson, Donn Nelson, or Donnn Nelson. Needless to say I don't want anyone who has ever spoken to the Nelson family anywhere near my Pacers.

The thing about Don Nelson is he ran 3X more isolations in his Mavs days than Rick ever has. He was the iso king.

OK, I lost my train of thought. What are we going to discuss Paul Westhead, Paul Westphal, Johnny Davis, and Sidney Lowe next. Or the long, long list of terrible NBA coaches

Kstat
03-13-2006, 03:48 PM
You know the last coach in recent NBA history that coached like D'Antoni?

George Irvine. Maybe you guys should bring him back. :laugh:

Fool
03-13-2006, 03:50 PM
You guys are being way way way to kind to Larry Bird or Donnie Walsh or both.

I agree with this.

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 04:04 PM
Is it really necessary for me to comment on Don Nelson, Donn Nelson, or Donnn Nelson. Needless to say I don't want anyone who has ever spoken to the Nelson family anywhere near my Pacers.

The thing about Don Nelson is he ran 3X more isolations in his Mavs days than Rick ever has. He was the iso king.

OK, I lost my train of thought. What are we going to discuss Paul Westhead, Paul Westphal, Johnny Davis, and Sidney Lowe next. Or the long, long list of terrible NBA coaches

Didn't Paul Westhead have the Lakers in the NBA Finals before Magic had him fired? (EDIT - checked it, he won in 1979-80).

Didn't Paul Westphal have the Suns in the NBA Finals (or was he not coaching them yet - I don't remember when he took over). (EDIT - checked it, yes he did.)

I'll give JD and Sidney a pass, since they are ex-Pacers. :D

I'd argue, in particular for Westhead and Westphal, that they are better than a large number of the act-alike, talk-alike style coaches presently in the NBA, and the lack of diversity in thought from the coaching ranks is hurting the NBA.

Its also a shame that those guys have generally always had second-tier opportunities, has Westhead ever really had a legit chance to redeem himself after Magic had him canned? Obviously, Riley was the right move at the time, but goodness gracious, those Bulls and Nuggets teams he coached wouldn't have won for anybody.

CableKC
03-13-2006, 04:28 PM
what do you know about defense
Are you asking me....what do I know about defense?

I don't know alot about defense.....but what does that have to do with anything? :confused:

I can only tell you that we have seen the difference in the coaching style of Don Nelson ( a coach that...I would guess....does not discourage defense but doesn't emphasize it ) and Avery Johnson ( a coach that preaches defense ) that has changed a average defensive team ( a team that ranked between being a top 14 to a top 28 defensive team in the last 3 seasons ) to a top 6 defensive team.

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 04:53 PM
we have seen the difference in the coaching style of Don Nelson ( a coach that...I would guess....does not discourage defense but doesn't emphasize it ) and Avery Johnson ( a coach that preaches defense ) that has changed a average defensive team ( a team that ranked between being a top 14 to a top 28 defensive team in the last 3 seasons ) to a top 6 defensive team.

Has it? From was I saw, that team has simply significantly slowed down the pace of the game, by playing almost totally isolation offense, and slow teams are always in the top defensively. Their opponents just do not have enough time to score many points.

I can't argue with it very fearlessly, though, as I have only seen one game of Mavs this season, and it was long ago.

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 04:57 PM
Sadly, far too many people consider that to be "great defense" these days.

Fireball Kid
03-13-2006, 05:01 PM
The thing about Don Nelson is he ran 3X more isolations in his Mavs days than Rick ever has. He was the iso king.

Exactly. Nothing about the offense would change if Don was coaching this team. Only except the pace of the game would be much higher because Don would insist of taking quick shots. But I dont think this team, when healthy, is built for that kind of tempo.

CableKC
03-13-2006, 05:04 PM
Has it? From was I saw, that team has simply significantly slowed down the pace of the game, by playing almost totally isolation offense, and slow teams are always in the top defensively. Their opponents just do not have enough time to score many points.

I can't argue with it very fearlessly, though, as I have only seen one game of Mavs this season, and it was long ago.
I guess we can let Fireball Kid answer this as he is more familiar with the Mavs.

Whatever they are doing....they are better on the defensive end under Avery then Don. My main point is that Don Nelson Sr. hasn't been a coach that did not emphasize defense as much as offense and ( however he runs the offense/defense ) that is not what I am hoping for in a coach.

The Pacers identity has been an emphasis on defense in recent years under Carlisle and ( I would guess ) Brown. I do not want to get away from that.

Indyfan
03-13-2006, 08:06 PM
I was at the game last night, but only returned home tonight so I didn't have a chance to post anything earlier. I skimmed through this thread, but didn't read everything, I want to make a couple of points from last night:

We are getting tired by the 4th quarter, our defense got worse as the game went on, our guys were worn out by the last 2 minutes and Foster was shaking his left hand as if it was hurt the entire 2nd half when there was a break in the play, he was hurting. Hulk looked lazy, and out of it for some reason, no energy. We need more players, esp. big guys, but I don't know when they'll be back. We also missed Freddie, we needed his scoring badly last night.

I was behind the bench and could see the plays Rick drew up fom a distance... looked like he called for the same drive and kick play that worked so well against NO Friday night. Not sure why AJ didn't even look to kick it out, 8 seconds goes so fast. The play before Peja just blew it, at least he admitted it after.

Jax played well because his shots were falling, but so many of the shots I thought OH NO, thats not going in when he shot it. He kept us in the game in the second half. Peja had some great looks, but his shots weren't falling and it really hurt us. Danny looked confused on defense in the second half, the help defense was horrible.

Toronto played really well, the building was crazy at the end, and James made a really well defended tough shot to win it. Dissappointing, but not a reason to fire coach or trade the whole team.

We need to get used to it because it is going to be this way until we get JO back and everyone healthy, it is foolish to expect this group as is to be winning most of their games. The bottom teams we have lost to are playing well. This is the NBA, and anyone can win any night.

D-BONE
03-13-2006, 10:26 PM
Do you honestly think Nellie is just a one-trick pony?

I realize he's added to his own reputation in recent seasons because of the Mav's well-documented softness. And I realize I'm older than a lot of you but I'm getting tired of this myopic view (not just your, but in general) of Don Nelson or coaches that are good on the offensive side of the ball.

His 1980s Bucks teams were not soft, at all.

But the 1980s Sixers and 1980s Celtics (damn them) were some of the best teams of all time, so the Bucks were rarely even in the ECFs.

Pretty tough to avoid the dreaded "soft" monniker when you have the infamous three-headed monster at C composed of Paul Mokeskie, Randy Brewer, and Alton Lister. Hell, Nellie deserves a freakin' NBA lifetime achievement award just for overcoming that to field a competitive post-season team and division champs over several years. I'll take him (or Donn) but preferrably senior if he promises to go retro and bust out his fish ties and black shoes with that whacky duct tape looking stuff on em.

pacerwaala
03-14-2006, 12:12 AM
Do you honestly think Nellie is just a one-trick pony?

I realize he's added to his own reputation in recent seasons because of the Mav's well-documented softness. And I realize I'm older than a lot of you but I'm getting tired of this myopic view (not just your, but in general) of Don Nelson or coaches that are good on the offensive side of the ball.

His 1980s Bucks teams were not soft, at all.

But the 1980s Sixers and 1980s Celtics (damn them) were some of the best teams of all time, so the Bucks were rarely even in the ECFs.

I admit I do not know much about Don Nelson's history and coaching style. But from what I saw of him from 1992, I am scared of his gimmick defenses and odd lineups (I saw him put Michael Finley on Dale Davis in a regular season game at MSA). His Dallas team that currently is doing good (to be fair to Don, it is still only the regular season) never did much in the playoffs.

I repeat here, I think we should be a little patient and have some perspective before passing such a harsh judgement on Carlisle.

Also, Pat Riley has had success with his coaching style which controlled and called each and every play. So it is not like this style of coaching has not had success.
Why is it so hard to accept that we are a .500 team without JO and Ron and Tins for most part of the year. Even the 4 games that we lost were pretty close. Phil Jackson can use his Zen technology all he wants and I don't think he will be able to motivate this team to show up every night, the way Carlisle has.

I don't know who will be the coach here if Carlisle is let go. But I think he will be a good fit with the Golden State Warriors and will have a lot of success there.