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Slick Pinkham
03-12-2006, 08:45 AM
No backing down

The world championships are still more than five months away, but already the bulletin-board material is popping up on the Internet. FIBA's website this past week carried a piece quoting one of the probable Argentine players trashing the United States team. If it had been Manu Ginobili or Andres Nocioni, it would have been a big deal. But they're too smart to trash talk. The comments came from Leonardo Gutierrez, who played a total of three minutes in Athens at the 2004 Olympics, and a whopping 39 minutes in the 2002 worlds in Indianapolis. But his comments probably reflect the thinking of a lot of the hoop world.

''They do not play like a team," Gutierrez said of the Yanks. ''They do not know how. They always played with a star, a hero. They are not used to playing at the FIBA level due to their individualistic style." Gutierrez said many countries no longer fear playing the Americans, although he concedes the 2006 team will be determined and powerful. But no one in Argentina is losing any sleep over a potential matchup with the US, Gutierrez said. ''We do not have to respect them anymore. We do not play against them to take photos. Never again. We know how to play against them. But they do not know how to play against us."

from the Boston Globe Sunday NBA column: http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2006/03/12/gomes_first_rate_on_second_thought/


Maybe Artest SHOULD be on the team, just to lock down this scrub should h ever see the court. I guess Bruce Bowen will do.

:nod:

Roaming Gnome
03-12-2006, 08:51 AM
Maybe it is my sense of nationalism takin' over, but we need to get on the ball and show them who they are messin' with! Damn, I just hope we beat the tar out of them... :pissed:

DisplacedKnick
03-12-2006, 08:56 AM
Argentina won the last Olympics so they've earned the right to talk a little trash, even their scrubs.

Plus, based on the last 2 Major International competitions, he's not wrong. Hopefully that'll change this summer.

3ballinhoop
03-12-2006, 08:57 AM
That's simply what you can expect when going from unbeatable (92) to ownee (2002 in your own country, god how embarassing, and 2004, Olympics (with a team that read like this years allstar game minus the internationals).

It's like Federer, if he would start losing in the first round at the grand slams, he is going to lose respect.

SwissExpress
03-12-2006, 08:57 AM
So where's the "trash"?

Lithfan
03-12-2006, 08:58 AM
No backing down

The world championships are still more than five months away, but already the bulletin-board material is popping up on the Internet. FIBA's website this past week carried a piece quoting one of the probable Argentine players trashing the United States team. If it had been Manu Ginobili or Andres Nocioni, it would have been a big deal. But they're too smart to trash talk. The comments came from Leonardo Gutierrez, who played a total of three minutes in Athens at the 2004 Olympics, and a whopping 39 minutes in the 2002 worlds in Indianapolis. But his comments probably reflect the thinking of a lot of the hoop world.

''They do not play like a team," Gutierrez said of the Yanks. ''They do not know how. They always played with a star, a hero. They are not used to playing at the FIBA level due to their individualistic style." Gutierrez said many countries no longer fear playing the Americans, although he concedes the 2006 team will be determined and powerful. But no one in Argentina is losing any sleep over a potential matchup with the US, Gutierrez said. ''We do not have to respect them anymore. We do not play against them to take photos. Never again. We know how to play against them. But they do not know how to play against us."

from the Boston Globe Sunday NBA column: http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2006/03/12/gomes_first_rate_on_second_thought/


Maybe Artest SHOULD be on the team, just to lock down this scrub should h ever see the court. I guess Bruce Bowen will do.

:nod:

I think you should change your title.

I see no trash here. The only thing he says is that they (Argentina team) do not consider themselfs trash anymore. They will play instead of taking pictures. Thats it.

And regarding "dream" team not playing like a team, he is completely right regarding the last one. I'm sure special attention will be payed to team play this time.

In any casy don't exaggerate his words - its not a trash talk.

SwissExpress
03-12-2006, 08:59 AM
Nobody is playing with US to take photos anymore, except maybe for Angola's semi-amateur team several years ago.

Slick Pinkham
03-12-2006, 09:06 AM
saying that they know how to play the US but the USA team doesn't know how to play against them isn't trash talk?

SwissExpress
03-12-2006, 09:15 AM
Is it?
I must understand "trash talk" in some other way, then.

"Trash talk" in my view - offensive statements provided without arguments, mainly curses.
And here you have a conclusion based on pretty clear arguments and experience. And without any obvious intention to offend US team.

Of course, they might seem offensive to the US fans - as well as any other negative statements from the direct opponents. But I - being neither US nor Argentina fan - see no trash talking there...

Slick Pinkham
03-12-2006, 09:32 AM
Trash talk simply means loudly putting down opposing teams or players, saying they don't have a chance, should give up, go home, etc.

It doesn't have any connotations of being vulgar or rude, just obnoxious and arrogant. Reggie, Bird, and Jordan were master trash talkers.

SwissExpress
03-12-2006, 09:35 AM
Within the framework of such definition - I agree.
But then there's no sense in getting so mad. It's the funniest part of the pregame;)

Kestas
03-12-2006, 09:45 AM
Maybe Artest SHOULD be on the team, just to lock down this scrub should h ever see the court. I guess Bruce Bowen will do.

:nod:

couldn't see anything offending in there.. simple thoughts, rather trivial.. please explain me where is the offending stuff in those quotes.

obviously, it's not a mass media material, but if 90% of people think this way, then I don't see any reasons why someone could not tell it publicly.
I'm rather surprised how sensitive Americans are to the different oppinion.

k

D-BONE
03-12-2006, 09:48 AM
The only thing that is remotely trash is the line about not having respect for the US team. That's kind of politically incorrect to say about any opponent. However, I don't find this particularly offensive or bothersome. As a whole, what he says is true based on recent international results for the US team. The coaches and players should use this as motivation though for the goal of restoring us to a respectable position. What I found (still find?) more embarassing is the US fans attitude toward international competition reflected in attendance and emotion shown at the World Games in Indy in 2002. I went to several sessions, including the semifinals, and the international fans made us look like lazy, spoiled bums. I almost found myself happy for their success against us b/c it obviously meant something to them. Our fan attitude was very much what I sensed from our team attitude-quite blase. In a way, I found it almost disrespectful the international contingent the way we outwardly seemed completely disinterested in the competition. Very little pride or intensity displayed. Maybe if USA basketball and fans start taking international play seriously (read: respecting it) again, we'll win back some respect from our international peers. I'm hoping this time around we will see better competitive zeal from our group.

Mourning
03-12-2006, 09:49 AM
I think it's ALWAYS stupid to say you don't respect your opponent BEFORE having played them. That's only possible motivation for the enemy. Why would you do that?

I would kick his *** IF I was the Argentine coach.

Offcourse, they have earned bragging rights. Personally, I just don't think it's very smart to use them unless shortly after the match. Just my opinion.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

SwissExpress
03-12-2006, 09:54 AM
Offcourse, they have earned bragging rights. Personally, I just don't think it's very smart to use them unless shortly after the match. Just my opinion.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Yes, probably you are right...

I hope everyone on the US team reads that quote and memorizes it, and that there are some more quotes like that later. And it'd be best if they were from someone who's a lock to be on the Argentina's team during the championship. And it'd be even better if they singled out particular US players in such comments, especially Kobe.

As I do not enjoy neither of the two teams - as well as many other fans around the world -, maybe it would get that matchup a bit more interesting for to watch...

Kestas
03-12-2006, 10:22 AM
I went to several sessions, including the semifinals, and the international fans made us look like lazy, spoiled bums.

yes, but if you read reflections from Eurobasket or even Olympic games by some US observers in high tier sources, you'll find some deffinitions like "monkeys", "ill-manered crowds" and so on.. that's how US media often sees international sports watching traditions. however, I never payed much attention to that, who cares, really.. we constantly make fun of Americans eating and sleeping during the NBA games as well ;)

to Mourning: we all know what was the attitude of US NT towards their opponents in recent competitions. I would be surprised if Wade, Marion or Carmello could tell more than two names from the Lithuanian NT before our game in Athens (one full name would be a huge surprise to me). I doubt Larry Brown knew who was Antanas Sireika (head coach of Lithuanian NT) before the Olympic games. imho he did not even care. They openly ignored us as well as any other team out there. did it feel any better because none of them told how they feel openly to the press? hardly. it's better to tell something on a brink of disrespectfull and act respectfully, than talk nice while acting like s.hit ;)

Moses
03-12-2006, 10:30 AM
Are you kidding me? Thats 100% talking trash. 'We don't have to respect them as a team anymore....They don't know how to play like a team..' Now saying that they haven't played like a team in the past would not have been trash talk and leaving the whole respect issue out would have made it not trash talk, but that looked like trash talk to me. Oh well, I want to see him on the floor against Bowen and get the **** knocked out of him with Bowens roughneck defense.

Kstat
03-12-2006, 10:56 AM
I love how he said, "we know how to play against them," like every US team is going to play the exact same way....

It's going to be so much fun watching them attept to keep upwith LeBron and Kobe....

Lithfan
03-12-2006, 11:23 AM
Are you kidding me? Thats 100% talking trash. 'We don't have to respect them as a team anymore....They don't know how to play like a team..' Now saying that they haven't played like a team in the past would not have been trash talk and leaving the whole respect issue out would have made it not trash talk, but that looked like trash talk to me. Oh well, I want to see him on the floor against Bowen and get the **** knocked out of him with Bowens roughneck defense.

Now you took the sentence out of connotation. He said:

''We do not have to respect them anymore. We do not play against them to take photos. "

So it means they do not respect US team as fans anymore. They do not take their photos (This is how it used to be). Now its equals game.

piksi
03-12-2006, 11:27 AM
he is right untill proven wrong

Moses
03-12-2006, 11:32 AM
Trash talking aside..Is it necessary for some 5th string scrub to talk trash about an opponent?

Peck
03-12-2006, 11:41 AM
he is right untill proven wrong


Agreed.

Slick Pinkham
03-12-2006, 12:32 PM
Trash talking aside..Is it necessary for some 5th string scrub to talk trash about an opponent?

that's what I found funny about it.

It's didn't make me mad, just annoyed and amused that some no-name would be running his mouth off.

It would be like Eddie Gill talking to the media before today's game and saying that the Raptors can't deal with us, we are just too good.

clownskull
03-12-2006, 01:06 PM
The only thing that is remotely trash is the line about not having respect for the US team. That's kind of politically incorrect to say about any opponent. However, I don't find this particularly offensive or bothersome. As a whole, what he says is true based on recent international results for the US team. The coaches and players should use this as motivation though for the goal of restoring us to a respectable position. What I found (still find?) more embarassing is the US fans attitude toward international competition reflected in attendance and emotion shown at the World Games in Indy in 2002. I went to several sessions, including the semifinals, and the international fans made us look like lazy, spoiled bums. I almost found myself happy for their success against us b/c it obviously meant something to them. Our fan attitude was very much what I sensed from our team attitude-quite blase. In a way, I found it almost disrespectful the international contingent the way we outwardly seemed completely disinterested in the competition. Very little pride or intensity displayed. Maybe if USA basketball and fans start taking international play seriously (read: respecting it) again, we'll win back some respect from our international peers. I'm hoping this time around we will see better competitive zeal from our group.

well, in terms of attendance, it was bad but, you should blame those responsible for putting on the games. if i recall, the CHEAPEST seats were like 90 bucks each. that is simply way too much for all but the richest and most slavishly devoted. i live only about an hour away from indy but no way in hell would i fork over that kind of cash for a ball game- ever.

SwissExpress
03-12-2006, 01:20 PM
that's what I found funny about it.

It's didn't make me mad, just annoyed and amused that some no-name would be running his mouth off.

It would be like Eddie Gill talking to the media before today's game and saying that the Raptors can't deal with us, we are just too good.

It would be much more like Eddie Gill saying smth like that about Cleveland, not Raptors. Saying that about Raptors would be cruel in a sense.

However, what beats me in the whole story is that smb actually asked this man about US/Argentina matchup. Nobody gives Eddie Gill such questions about the Pacers. And nobody gives, e.g., Okafor similar questions about US performance in the coming tournament - because (as you'd say) "scrubs" are never guaranteed a spot in their national teams at this point of year.

That leads me to two conclusions:
(1) either Boston Globe knows about this guy smth that we don't and that's not reflected in his stats, or they got that info from some other (most probably Argentinian) source that knows about him smth that we don't...
(2) in either way, he's probably not that much of a 'scrub' afterall..

I have to admit I've never heard about him before. Maybe he's some very young talented kid who plays in Argentinian championship and who's supposed to play much bigger role in their NT this year? Afterall, LeBron, Amare and Carmelo were more or less 'scrubs' in US NT too...

SwissExpress
03-12-2006, 01:46 PM
I found the original article. Apparently Boston Globe re-published the info very selectively. Guttierez says quite many positive things about the US too.

In any case, it seems to me that this guy tends too use too strong words for everything he says. He claims that US can't play with Argentina, then that German league (!) is like NBA, and finally that Americans will have the best team regardless whether they bring rookies or NBA stars, and that Argentina wouldn't want to face them till it's inevitable....

http://www.fiba.com/pages/en/events/blockbusters/world_champ_men_06/article_World_Champ_Men.asp?cookietest=done&r_act_news=11540&r_cat=8


ARG - Gutierrez doubts Team USA can be in a united state

COMODORO RIVADAVIA (FIBA World Championship) - Argentina Olympic gold medallist Leonardo Gutierrez has fanned the flames ahead of the FIBA World Championship by claiming the United States do not know how to play as a team.

The 27-year-old forward was part of the side that defeated Team USA in the semi-finals in Athens 18 months ago before going on to become Olympic champions.

And he has echoed coach Sergio Hernandez's view that the US, who have named their provisional 23-man squad for August's big event in Japan, always seem to struggle to mould their galaxy of stars into a cohesive unit.

"They do not play like a team, they do not know how," Gutierrez said, before suggesting the US have tended to rely too heavily on individuality rather than a collective effort in the past.
"They always played with a star, with a hero," he added. "They are not used to playing at FIBA level due to their individualistic style."

Gutierrez believes recent tournament results show the starstruck fear factor that used to be associated with the so-called 'Dream Team' has all but disappeared, claiming Argentina's defeat of the US in the last World Championship in 2002 was a decisive moment in this shift.

"Since we beat them in their home, in Indianapolis, the rest of the teams realised any country could beat the Americans," he said.

"We do not have to respect them anymore. We do not play against them to take photos - never again."
In fact, such is the turnaround in the US' fortunes in recent years, Gutierrez believes Argentina would have the upper hand should the sides meet again in Japan.

"We know how to play against them, but they do not know how to play against us," he said.

Gutierrez, who plays his club basketball in the domestic Liga Nacional with Ben Hur, also argues that leagues around the world have narrowed the chasm that once separated them from the NBA.

"The European leagues have grown a lot, and now they are very competitive," he said. "I think Europe is like the NBA. The teams have important players, like in Germany, France or Spain.
"Those leagues are at a high level. I believe a lot of players from there could play in the United States."

Like his coach, Gutierrez reckons America need to adopt the right team ethic if they are to end their poor recent run in major championships and cranked up the pressure on their rivals by claiming they should be winning every game by 20 points.

"The Americans must select a competitive team if they do not want to do the same as the last two tournaments. At the last World Championship in Indianapolis as well as the Olympic Games, the Americans only had failures.

"They need victories. For them, the last bronze medal was a failure. In fact, if they do not win all their matches by a 20-point margin, it would be a failure.

"If they have a good pre-tournament preparation, they have a chance of changing their style of play. I heard they want to prepare at the same level as the other FIBA countries."

However, despite his criticisms, Gutierrez is under no illusions over the almost unparalleled strength of the US squad and warned they could quite easily "destroy" Argentina if everything came together for them.

"It does not matter if the US World Championship list has rookie players or stars like Kobe Bryant," he said. "The Americans will have a great squad regardless. If a player makes that list, it is because he is one of the best in the world.
"The United States have so many players who are more or less at the same level. The only thing which is true is the 12 they will travel to Japan with will be the best in the world.
"If we can avoid them in the early rounds of the FIBA World Championship it would be better. I would accept facing the Americans in the final, but until the semi-finals I prefer to avoid them.
"If they play against us in a motivated night, they could destroy us."

Roaming Gnome
03-12-2006, 04:10 PM
well, in terms of attendance, it was bad but, you should blame those responsible for putting on the games. if i recall, the CHEAPEST seats were like 90 bucks each. that is simply way too much for all but the richest and most slavishly devoted. i live only about an hour away from indy but no way in hell would i fork over that kind of cash for a ball game- ever.

You are exactly right. The Indiana Sport Corperation tried to price the events without any field study on who would WANT to pay olympic rate prices on a "Pig in a Prom Dress". Heck, I wanted to go, but there was no way I was going to spend the eqivalent of 1/4th of my Pacers season tickets to catch 2 weeks of Int'l ball.

When you strip off the gown and frills, you still got a pig! The WBC was not the olympics, no matter how much they wanted to bill it as something like the olympics. Outside of the money issue, I was personally offended at how the ISC tried to educate the fans on how to act attending the games. I know that they didn't say, "act this way, or else", but to me, it was implied that this is something special and I had ob be on my best behavior because we didn't want to scare the foriegners. I'm wasn't the only one that felt this way.


They should have priced it and billed it as something being done in Indiana, not New York, LA, or Chicago.

The 2002 WBC was just a "pig in a poke" that the people of Indiana was not buying into!

Kestas
03-12-2006, 05:28 PM
You are exactly right. The Indiana Sport Corperation tried to price the events without any field study on who would WANT to pay olympic rate prices on a "Pig in a Prom Dress". Heck, I wanted to go, but there was no way I was going to spend the eqivalent of 1/4th of my Pacers season tickets to catch 2 weeks of Int'l ball.


I suspect they used the usual pricing policy (?). and if it was only 1/4th of your seasonal NBA ticket, then it was virtually for free (imho ;)).
and comparisons with Olympics are ridiculous. those are two equal tournaments. yes, I do think Olympics are more prestigeous, but in general those two tournaments are (almost?) equal in terms of game quality.
and the way Americans handled that tournament hurt the basketball in general imho (and the image of US basketball fans suffered as well). it was a huge dissapointment. to be fair, we can only guess how it'll be in Japan. I mean this country is almost nothing in basketball and this ain't football where you can do magic as South Korea did in the previous World Cup. anyways, I still believe attendance will be much better than in 2002, though the number of international fans will be low as Japan is an expensive country to travel to.

and I think this thread is well in OT territory now..

btw, what did you mean "scare the foreigners"? how would you be able to do that? :/ how can you scare somebody who's been to numerous games in, say, European leagues, where players sometimes can't even hear the ref's wistle? ;)

jcouts
03-12-2006, 05:52 PM
Kind of reminds me of when Greg Foster was talking trash to Shaq after-the-fact, about Utah sweeping the Lakers in 98.

dipperdunk
03-12-2006, 09:18 PM
One of the reasons they beat us in the Olympics was because 90% of our superstars pulled out from the qualifying team we had in Puerto Rico that hammered them.

When we played them before the Olympics in 2003 and had a team with most of our top players TMac,Vince,JO,Iverson,Duncan,Kidd,Allen etc.,, we killed them 103-76. If we had a team of our top elite stars we would crush them. They were able to handle Duncan in the Olympics because he was flanked by Boozer,Odom,Okafor but they would get mauled by a front court of KG,Duncan and Shaq.

He just convinently left out the fact that a large % of our elite players didn't even compete in the Olympics. There would be a slight difference with a Shaq/KG front court instead of a Boozer/Odom front court rotation.

http://www.nba.com/news/usa_photo_2003.html

waterjater
03-12-2006, 09:43 PM
Truth hurts doesn't it!! USA Basketball isn't feared by anyone and FRANKLY it shouldn't be. Hell, our own Pacers can't even play as a team.

waterjater
03-12-2006, 10:08 PM
Just a common reference to the lack of team play in the NBA and why our USA team struggles. I believe the Pistons would have a much better chance to win the Olympic Gold at this point than a collection of "look at me" stars.

Point is the Pacers, who are a team, can't even play like one...so I don't expect a bunch of "stars" to do so either.

Water

SwissExpress
03-12-2006, 10:42 PM
One of the reasons they beat us in the Olympics was because 90% of our superstars pulled out from the qualifying team we had in Puerto Rico that hammered them.

When we played them before the Olympics in 2003 and had a team with most of our top players TMac,Vince,JO,Iverson,Duncan,Kidd,Allen etc.,, we killed them 103-76. If we had a team of our top elite stars we would crush them. They were able to handle Duncan in the Olympics because he was flanked by Boozer,Odom,Okafor but they would get mauled by a front court of KG,Duncan and Shaq.

He just convinently left out the fact that a large % of our elite players didn't even compete in the Olympics. There would be a slight difference with a Shaq/KG front court instead of a Boozer/Odom front court rotation.

http://www.nba.com/news/usa_photo_2003.html

That's exactly the attitude US team should drop in order to win..

Most other teams don't gather their best players too. I don't remember the last time Yougoslavia, Spain or Lithuania had their best team together. A loss of Peja or Big Z, for instance, is a much bigger loss for Yougoslavia or Lithuania than of Shaq for US.

PS: on another thought, I do remember it. It was the 1992 Barcelona Olympics for Lithuania, the 1995 Euro Championship for Yougoslavia, and 2003 Euro Championship for Spain.

brichard
03-12-2006, 10:53 PM
Trash talking is all about perspective. If it is my team/player doing it and they back it up... I'm good with it. If it is another team doing it, I hate it. If one of my player's is doing it and not backing it up (clears throat... JO) then I hate it in that regard as well.

I remember when Michael, Magic, and Bird were being interviewed about their first round opponent in the Olympics Angola. All gave the "never underestimate you opponent" speech. And then they get to Barkley. :)

He proceeds to say "They are in serious trouble. I don't know who they are and I've never seen them play, but they are in serious trouble." and he broke out in his mischievious boyish grin. :lol2: I thought it was hilarious. It wasn't that it was an insult, it was just Charles being his honest and brazen self.

If they wanna talk trash, let 'em. Until we prove differently they have earned the right. Who did/didn't play is irrelevant. We sent over some Pros and they got their butts beat plain and simple.

Jermaniac
03-12-2006, 10:59 PM
He is going to feel bad after they play the US and lose.

brichard
03-12-2006, 11:19 PM
I dont agree with that at all.

Sending some no names and getting beat as opposed to sending your stars and getting beat are two different things.

IF anything, it says your scrubs are not on the same level as your stars, and that the rest of the world has caught up, at least with the level of talent tehre (which clearly wasnt our best)

Regardless, as others have said let the man talk. At least till the next time we play...

You have to be real careful though because if I was from Argentina I'd accuse the US of whining. The guys who chose to represent the United States... are the United States... period. We can talk who woulda, coulda, shoulda all day long.

The World Championships team was not a "bunch of scrubs." You had Paul Pierce, AI, Tim Duncan, JO, Reggie Miller etc. I'm not saying it was the best the US had to offer, but we are talking All Star caliber players in the NBA. We used to win with college talent, and this was pro talent. The fact that we are not saying that we need the best of the pros says something for foreign teams.

And if guys like Shaq refuse to play, I'm not saying he is, but if they don't play... they don't play. You have to count who we are and who we are not. You can still debate that the US has the best players, but you can't debate who has the best Olympic team... that will be decided at the Olympics.

3ballinhoop
03-13-2006, 12:37 AM
What vapacersfan shows here is really whining without any truth in it.
The USA olympic team that lost in the Olympics 2 years ago had almost no differences to this years allstar game minus Garnett, Shaq, Bryant and the international players.
It was a team consisting of only allstars and you speak of scrubs.
Talk about losing credibility.

Mourning
03-13-2006, 01:38 AM
to Mourning: we all know what was the attitude of US NT towards their opponents in recent competitions. I would be surprised if Wade, Marion or Carmello could tell more than two names from the Lithuanian NT before our game in Athens (one full name would be a huge surprise to me). I doubt Larry Brown knew who was Antanas Sireika (head coach of Lithuanian NT) before the Olympic games. imho he did not even care. They openly ignored us as well as any other team out there. did it feel any better because none of them told how they feel openly to the press? hardly. it's better to tell something on a brink of disrespectfull and act respectfully, than talk nice while acting like s.hit ;)

Well, like I said it's always stupid to disrespect your opponent, that goes for every team, not just the US.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

waterjater
03-13-2006, 02:58 AM
Like Rim said a few posts back, we sent are stars there and whooped ***.

We dont send our stars, and we lose.

Either way, Ive never been a big fan of trash talk, and esp. not from some scrub. but hey, whatever floats your boat

Trash talking doesn't float my boat at all. You are misreading me completely.

We didn't send scrubs, that team that got their *** whooped WAS ACTUALLY A bunch of all stars including our beloved, yet injured, Reggie Miller. Int'l teams have caught up and from my perspective surpassed us in International Events.

Their teamwork is better and so is the end result. So, to me, thats the truth and we, THE US TEAM, needs to create a new story. Until they do, the truth will hurt.

Water

Kestas
03-13-2006, 05:37 AM
One of the reasons they beat us in the Olympics was because 90% of our superstars pulled out from the qualifying team we had in Puerto Rico that hammered them.


as others already noticed, Olympic USA squad was really great in terms of names' power. think of it - Lebron only averaged 11 minutes there.. Carmelo managed a combined of 47 minutes during 8 games. the team had players like Duncan, that the current 2006-2008 roster could only dream about.
besides, the team had some of the most respected coaches in NBA (that turned out to be very poor imho, but the fact remains).
on the other hand, Argentina did change as well. Victoriano, Kammerichs, Palladino left the team while Delfino, Herrmann and Sconochini came to the team. imho this improved the squad. furthermore, the team used additional summer to improve their teamplay even further. therefore no one knows how would US'2003 do against Argentina'2004.

Rytas_Jega
03-13-2006, 07:52 AM
Summer of 2004.

Carmelo Anthony: "We're guaranteeing a gold medal. We're bringing it back."

3ballinhoop
03-13-2006, 08:21 AM
Allen Iverson
Lebron James
Dwyane Wade
Tim Duncan
Shawn Marion
Stephon Marbury
Amare Stoudamire
Carmelo Anthony
Richard Jefferson
Amare Stoudamire
Stephon Marbury
Lamar Odom
Carlos Boozer

It really anoys me seeing this group of players called "scrubs" to justify that the american team lost. You can come up with lots of whine and excuses, which of course won't change the fact that the american national team has been owned two times in a row, first on homegrounds at the worldchampionships 04 and then at the 04 Olympics (where USA lost 3 games including a blowout loss to Puerto Rico, a loss to the 4-million people country Lithuania (lots smaller than Indiana) and a loss to Argentina), but anyone who claims that they sent scrubs and lost, looks like a total jerk looking at this teams players.

AI, Dwyane Wade, Lebron James, Tim Duncan, Amare before injury, Shawn Marion now.

These are basically 5 of about 10 possible mvp candidates (not this season, but in general) minus Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, Elton Brand, Steve Nash and Shaq.

I actually believe that this years USA squad is going to be really good, and have a good chance of becoming world champions. I write this because it annoys me to see bad behavior where you don't give the earned respect to the other teams, who not only beat USA repeatedly, but also USA teams loaded with allstars and not scrubs, a lie written only to diminish the other teams performance. It is a silly attempt to try to disregard basketball history, which has seen the american national team put to it's place, below first spot, two times in a row at major competitions with one being at home, one being the Olympic Games and both teams loaded with allstar talent. Right now, the USA is not number one, and it is up to the team to regain this status. However, those losses were absolutely historical and american basketball will never again be seen as the almost unbeatable force that it once was. It is basically like Roger Federer losing in the second round at all grand slams in a season. He is going to lose lots of respect and every player on the tour, especially the ones that beat him 6-3, 6-2 are going to perfectly know and believe they can beat him again.
This thread, at the same time, is like Federer fans claiming he played with the wrong hand, and is going to whoop *** when he starts playing with the right hand, which of course would be pure bull**** as he played with the right hand all the time.
Way to go.

D-BONE
03-13-2006, 08:26 AM
I'll give people that the World's here was way overpriced. No agrument there. But that lack of planning to make the event come off well here (including not pricing people out) is still an example of how the US at all levels won't recognize/respect foreign play and commitment to the game. They needed to make that event succeed and failed miserably. Fans from around the world show up to the "basketball mecca" of Indiana only to find an empty arena. Then our star-studded team plays like they don't care whatsoever. These things to me still echo what I perceive as the general sentiment among US fans toward international play. If we can't beat 'em, just ignore them or make up some rationalization like our best guys didn't play. I'm not saying we have to be up on every team and player around the world as fans. This should translate for us into not accepting the half-a** commitment/effort of our pros in recent international events. If they can't guarantee that, then we have no room to moan about international players showing less respect for us in what they say. Bottom line: they're the champs until we change it. I am hopeful we'll get a better showing this time around.

3ballinhoop
03-13-2006, 08:39 AM
I like your attitude d-bone, thanks for writing that!
One of the biggest negatives perceived as an american characteristic has to be how uneducated americans are when it comes to the world outside the States. They don't know geography, they don't speak other languages, they don't know history. It's a long list and it is striking because intelligent people in Europe are educated in a different way.
Of course, this translates into basketball in a major way. Why care about other countries when the by far best basketball is played at home? You can see it on this board also, where fans claim to be the most knowledgeable about basketball, but don't know much about the american team and nothing about good players outside the USA. There is no pride at all, no knowledge about the u21-national team, which lost big time at the last world championshis giving the hint that foreign talent also in the future will compete with the next generation of NBA players. The Euroleague has become a lot stronger. Players from the Euroleague can indeed be better than NBA players, and that is a fact that many, also here, do simply not accept and write those players off as scrubs. It is understandable that media and fans do not recognize other basketball, but seeing how building the new american national team has become major news in the USA, basketballusa is being more serious than ever seen before about this matter. The result has to be good.

DeS
03-13-2006, 10:54 AM
Although I'm euro, I also consider this as a trash talk. Gutierrez simply can't know "what they we (arg.) do now (can) and what they don't (can't)". Alhtough American basketball have some problems and there are some true points, these are not put in the right way and You can't (imo) talk about any oponent like that.
Well, looking forward Gutierrez and his team to prove he's right :)

SwissExpress
03-13-2006, 11:45 AM
Although I'm euro, I also consider this as a trash talk.

Actually, being a euro does not automatically mean you are an Argentina defender... Argentina is "enemy no.2" for most Euro fans. Of course, it does not receive that much criticizm as US squad, but still...

3ballinhoop
03-13-2006, 06:44 PM
I hope you realize that you mentioned the word scrubs. It is simply wrong, and I'm confident you understand that.

3ballinhoop
03-13-2006, 07:11 PM
Well, as I said there were loads of MVP candidates, and allstars.
It was the Olympic games, so of course those were the best the USA had. If some players are not available because they don't want to play, then it seems wrong to claim that there would have been others. The players that played were the best the USA had to represent them - like in any other national team.
For this years world championships, there is no arrogance left from american basketball. They know they have been owned, and they really want nothing more than to come back and win. The team selection has been a big thing, the very best have been selected and reading interviews and seeing the preparation and sincerity usabasketball has put into this, there will be an american team that fights to regain honor. It will be interesting to see if they are good enough, and of course chances are pretty big that they can succeed.

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 07:15 PM
Trash talk simply means loudly putting down opposing teams or players, saying they don't have a chance, should give up, go home, etc.

It doesn't have any connotations of being vulgar or rude, just obnoxious and arrogant. Reggie, Bird, and Jordan were master trash talkers.


Ahem.

:person:

:bowdown:

Kstat
03-13-2006, 07:18 PM
Ahem.

:person:

:bowdown:

....except he trash-talked himself into trouble more often than not......

ChicagoJ
03-13-2006, 07:22 PM
Don't know about that.

Those teams were young and would've been obliterated by Bird's Celtics and 'Nique's Hawks if he didn't talk. Look at the two playoffs where he generally kept his trap shut - Detroit swept us and Boston swept us in the rematch.

For those teams, Chuck's talking was vital to giving us a chance to win. And when he was talking, we didn't lose because Bird or 'Nique outplayed him, in an individual matchup, we lost because we were a seven-seed and the opponent really was better from top-to-bottom.