PDA

View Full Version : Odd thoughts about the collapse in Houston.....



Peck
03-09-2006, 01:58 AM
Well that sucked.

I don't even know where to begin with this because the second half collapse was so bad that I'm not sure what we could have done much differantly. Our shot just was not falling, no matter who took it.

Some of it can be attributed to Houston's defense but a lot of it & I mean a lot of it can be attributed to our players settling for long distance jump shots.

Live by the three die by the three is my motto & come the third quarter we could not by any shot & we settled way to often on the three.

BTW, I do have one big official gripe for Rick Carlisle. We can all agree or disagree over the isolation offense or the lack of rebounding that his offensive sets allows but can we all agree on one thing.

Our damn guards & small forwards need to meet at the next practice & go over how to run an advantage fast break. By advantage I mean a 3-2 or 3-1 or even a 2-1 because I swear to God we are the worst team in the history of the NBA at running those.

If it's not Saras passing out of a wide open layup to a team mate who is covered it's A.J. throwing out of bounds.

I would rather Jeff Foster & David Harrison run the break than almost any of our point guards. :mad: :mad:

Speaking of Jeff Foster. No matter how bad our team sucked this guy was a hero. At some point in time I expected him to step out for three because he had to do everything else for us, now that I think about it he wouldn't have been any worse than A.J. or Jax from downtown.

Jeff had a monster game & should be applauded.

I also had no problem with either Scot Pollard or David Harrison. I mean Yao is 7'6" tall so I don't care who you are you are not going to stop him down low & you can only keep him out of the post for so long.

For a back to back Scot was fine & David is still showing us why on the offensive end many of us think he will be superb.

Peja was great as well. I will never understand why he was being waved off by Jackson at the end of the 4th quarter so often. In fact I would have much prefered Peja get the ball on almost every trip down the floor but I understand that isn't going to happen. I like the fact that when his outside shot is not dropping he is not afraid to go down low & try & either get a layup or get fouled. I wish other players would learn that.

I thought Saras had a solid game & he spent a lot of his time at the two spot. I wish he would accept that because he could get a lot of min. there & IMO he would be very effective. But time will tell on that. He did hit a couple of shots so I thought he played well.

Jamaal was better than last night however I want to point out one small problem. I don't know how well Jamaal plays off the ball. If we all want that fluid offensive movement I think it's important that we don't have a player who dominates the ball. I'm not saying Jamaal did, in fact he didn't for the most part, but I'm thinking of the way he has played in the past.

However I think it's a moot point either way. We are already seeing more & more isolation plays run every game. Have you noticed that each game over the past week we've seen more & more iso's run each game. Like I said before, it's just a matter of time when we see almost a 50/50 split of this & then before long it will be 60/40.

As everybody knows I'm an A.J. supporter. I have always said he is the perfect backup p.g. & I've even come to believe that you can win with him as your starter. But that game, in particular that 4th quarter was beyond sub par for him. In fact I thought A.J. was something I've never really seen him be before. I thought he was selfish. In fact I thought both he & Jax were selfish down towards the end but I've come to expect that from Jax. I'm not used to this from A.J. He put up bad shots without ever trying to work it in or even look for a pass. Think about that play late in the game where he missed a three early in the clock, Jeff fought off three Rockets & got the board back to A.J. who proceeded to chuck up an 18' shot within 1 second of receiving the ball. This was out of character for him.

I hope he doesn't think he has to do this to keep his playing time. A.J. doesn't do this often, if ever, so I'll let it pass this time but I wasn't happy.

Now to Jax.

I'm used to his streaky shooting, I am used to his 1-5 offense he sometimes runs, I'm even used to his three point shots early in the shot clock. But I will never be used to his griping at the refs. while the ball is in play & not helping his team. One time tonight was so offensive to me that if I could have thrown a cup at him I would have. He shot the ball from about 15' out, he missed of course, he then turns & proceeds to yak at the ref & run down the court to start his defense. Here is the problem. The ball clanged long & it was within arms length of Stephen if only he would have been looking at the ball instead of the ref. Of course the Rockets took the ball & I think Swift ended up with a dunk or something.

Like I said, I can tolerate a lot of this stuff from him because he does make up for some of it in other ways. But this crap I cannot take.

Now about Rick?????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................ I don't know. I do credit JVG for upping the defensive screws but then I do not know how you defend a team so well that it actually stops motion & player movement. Sure it can put pressure on ball movement but player movement will counter that usually.

I do not like us reverting to the old offense & not for reasons you might think. Hey I understand you have to play some half court offense, in the East in particular come playoff time that is what we will have. But I don't like the way he moves all of the players away from the glass & leaves us with one player down low for boards. When we had 5 guys attacking the glass we were darn tough to beat. Now there are often times we don't have that.

I also don't like it because I know at the core what this is, it's clock management & turn over management. In other words Rick is playing defense by playing posession offense.

I'm not saying it doesn't work because it can. However it can easily be overcome as well.

I don't know, I just have a bad feeling about the way things are going.

Hicks
03-09-2006, 02:18 AM
My thing is, since when is ball movement NOT half-court offense, but just iso? It's not like when you do, you have to use more than one side of the floor.

Lithfan
03-09-2006, 02:20 AM
Great recap Peck.

Yes, AJ became selfish. He is putting up 6 of 16 Jax like stats.

Why does Rick continues to play him anyway? 30 min for god sake?

diamonddave00
03-09-2006, 02:26 AM
When you consider AJ hit his first 4 shots and 5 of his first six , tells you he went 1 for his last 10 , that on the hells of last nights 3of 12.

I don't understand the reluctance to set up a play for Peja down the stretch , if he misses he misses but I'd prefer the best shooter take the last shot at least once in awhile.

bulletproof
03-09-2006, 03:31 AM
As everybody knows I'm an A.J. supporter. I have always said he is the perfect backup p.g. & I've even come to believe that you can win with him as your starter. But that game, in particular that 4th quarter was beyond sub par for him. In fact I thought A.J. was something I've never really seen him be before. I thought he was selfish.

I thought the same thing, too. But then I got to thinking. Perhaps selfishness breeds selfishness. In other words, why pass it when you know it might wind up in Jackson's hands, because once it does, bye-bye ball. I've been pretty neutral about Jax, until these past few games.

Los Angeles
03-09-2006, 03:44 AM
It's funny after watching this game, I feel exactly like I did after the start of the season when every player thought it was up to them to save the team from drowning - and ended up pulling the team under that much faster.

DeS
03-09-2006, 04:22 AM
I have nothing against AJ as he played really good games, but I must say RC and AJ took me by surprise this time. I barely made to shout kind of the "OMG" thing yet before the ball left AJs hand. As Conrad would say - if it went it, we all would have said how clutch AJ is.
Somtimes I think RC is having difficulties identifying who is hot and who is cold, who is having a good or bad night. And sometimes I wish RC had only play-by-play table before his eyes. And sometimes... Well, maybe RC gets most from the given team. But it's just how I feel.

D-BONE
03-09-2006, 07:50 AM
I'd like to see Peja get more late-game opportunities, too. It's logical as he's the best shooter. However, it would be to disprove my take on him, which is he doesn't have the will and mental toughness to hit, and sometimes to work to get open, in late game situations. I know that could by a myth perpetuated by frustrated Kings fans, but I had an excellent view of him shooting those crucial FTs at the end (and OT) of the Altanta game at home and he was extremely uncomfortable and not at all successful under pressure. At least give him some looks to see what he can do though.

Jumper
03-09-2006, 07:59 AM
I don't think enough can be said about Foster, he was a man among boys tonight. To see that kind of tenacity, in spite of defeat, is a consolation, albeit a small one. I would also like to point out that with about 2 minutes left to go we had minute and a half stretch of the best defense I have seen from the Pacers. First Pollard pulled the chair out on Yao for the steal, then Foster streaked through the lane to break up and easy bucket, next Jax created a steal for Foster, then we had a few quick shots and Jeff pulled down the board. For a team on the second end of a back to back that had appeared to be running out of gas in the second half I was very impressed. Unfortunately we couldn't do much on the other end, likely because of the lack of fuel left in the tank.

owl
03-09-2006, 08:16 AM
Our damn guards & small forwards need to meet at the next practice & go over how to run an advantage fast break. By advantage I mean a 3-2 or 3-1 or even a 2-1 because I swear to God we are the worst team in the history of the NBA at running those.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

This is what I felt after the loss to NY. Jackson running the break is a disaster. I believe that the Pacers need a different shooting guard.
Jackson hurts more than he helps. Unfortunately I am not sure if there
is anything better out there. Running the fast break also requires some finishers and the Pacer have few of those. Bogans looks better that
anything the Pacers have.

owl

Unclebuck
03-09-2006, 08:56 AM
This whole Iso discussion is driving me nuts. It has taken over the board, and I'm getting sick of it. The ball movement last night was outstanding for really the whole game, they ran a lot less iso ball than they did agaisnt the Knicks. But I'll be honest right now I think the lines between iso and non-iso have been so blurred I can't tell the difference anymore.

If they pass the ball three times and it ends up in Jax's hands and he holds it for a few seconds and makes his move is that iso. If AJ gets the ball at the top of the key and penetrates is that iso.

One thing that was different last night is the Rockets doubled jax and even Peja in the post, and that allowed the Pacers to pass out of double teams.

I just think some of you, are getting so obessed with the idea - iso bad, non-iso good, it seems you are focusing on little else.

OK enough of that.

Peck, I assume you were using a little hyperbole to make your offensive rebounding point. But the Pacers have never sent all 5 guys to the glass.


Overall I saw a team last night that gave everything they had. When your bench is Harrison and 3 point guards you know you are in a little bit of trouble. Especially when one of the point guards doesn't play, and the other one is just coming back from 6 weeks off.

In many ways I'm very proud of the team.

The only problem I had with AJ the whole night was the alley-oop pass he tried to make on a fast break. That was ugly. The final shot f the night his little turnaround jumper, many are acting like you've never seen AJ hit that shot before. That is one of his shots.

fwpacerfan
03-09-2006, 08:59 AM
This team needs to be dismantled this summer. Starting with Carlisle and going completely through the roster. Keep Granger, Saras, Freddie and Peja and let the rest go. I'm sick and tired of the inconsistency, the poor lineup decisions, the lack of effort, the lack of heart. I wish I could take my wife's advice and just start rooting for a real team like the Pistons. But I can't. I keep going back to this group of losers only to have my teeth kicked in again by their selfishness and lack of execution. I'm on the verge of actually HATING this group of players. That has never happened in my lifetime of rooting for various teams, but I'm pretty close to that with this group. They make me realize why much of America hates NBA players and NBA basketball.

DeS
03-09-2006, 09:29 AM
Well, AJ is talking himself about the need to find a different (other than iso) approach to the clutch sithuations:


"I took it upon myself to shoot the turnaround jumper, but I overshot it," Johnson said. "We have to find an answer for taking shots late in the game. We've all taken our cracks at it and nobody has been able to step up and make shots. We just have to buckle down and try to find something that works in the clutch and get us good looks and get a few buckets when we need them."
source... (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060309/SPORTS04/603090473/1088)

And as for iso's as such, imho - no matter how good or bad these can be... simply it's just not working for pacers (or let's say for current players) in the clutch suthuations.

Unclebuck
03-09-2006, 09:46 AM
This team needs to be dismantled this summer. Starting with Carlisle and going completely through the roster. Keep Granger, Saras, Freddie and Peja and let the rest go. I'm sick and tired of the inconsistency, the poor lineup decisions, the lack of effort, the lack of heart. I wish I could take my wife's advice and just start rooting for a real team like the Pistons. But I can't. I keep going back to this group of losers only to have my teeth kicked in again by their selfishness and lack of execution. I'm on the verge of actually HATING this group of players. That has never happened in my lifetime of rooting for various teams, but I'm pretty close to that with this group. They make me realize why much of America hates NBA players and NBA basketball.



Have you been watching the team since the Artest trade. Your post might have been valid back in December or January, but since the Artest trade, I really disagree with your assesment of the Pacers.

Jumper
03-09-2006, 09:58 AM
Gotta go with UB here. Did you watch the game last night? The Pacers played their tails off but were just undermanned and out of gas in the end. I know everyone thinks big changes big changes. Lets see what this team can do as a complete unit first. You can argue that you have seen that but you haven't. Oneal hasn't played with an assertive Harrison or Peja period. Before I want to trade away all these pieces I want to see how they fit together first.

naptownmenace
03-09-2006, 10:01 AM
I'm not making excuses (well, actually I am but they are relevent) but three things really impacted the Pacers in the 4th quarter:

1. No Bench depth. Granger and Fred joined the wounded and the Pacers missed their defense and energy.

2. Because of number 1, they tired down the stretch. They settled for jumpers because they were tired. They missed them because they were tired.

3. Opponents are starting to figure out the Pacers offense. It was bound to happen after they had played 10 games or so with Peja and I expect the games will be tougher from here on out without Fred.


Overall, the Pacers really could use JO right now. Everytime they lose a close game that grinds down into a half-court slower tempo game, I think they would've won if JO had played.

Slick Pinkham
03-09-2006, 10:13 AM
I have a problem with having Rafer Alston tearing the Indiana D up for 14 assists and Houston shooting 53% for the whole game. Even taking away Yao's FGs, our FG% D was not good.

Everyone is bellaching about our 4th quarter offense meltdown but our porous D let them back in it.

Granted we got several stops at the very end and gagged on the offensive end.

Did anyone post the postgame quote from Rick saying that AJ's shot was "the play we wanted". Geesh, it was not what I wanted.

bulldog
03-09-2006, 10:33 AM
I agree with everyone who is advocating widespread, wholesale changes. We need to find a way to bring in an All-Star big man who can command double teams to help with ball movement and take big shots at the end of games.

Wait...

Listen, one of the reasons we end up in iso ball is because we have four perimenter scorers dominating the offense. It's like when you go play pick up at the gym...everyone takes turns half-heartedly penetrating and kicking it out, and it works for a little while, but then the other team figures out what you're doing and it stops working. Last night it stopped working somewhere around the 4th quarter.
Have you seen the Spurs play? TD draws a double, then he kicks it out to Manu, who swings it to an open, cutting Tony who drops in a teardrop. Most possesions, their whole movement/offensive flow scheme stems from a big guy commanding attention. I still think it was Artest's style of play, not JO's, who was putting us in a stall and grind offense. Movement will improve, hopefully, once JO gets back, partly because he'll get doubled, and partly becuase Jax and AJ won't have alpha-dog, green-light status anymore.

I agree with Pacertom, we should be worrying about our D, JO is not gonna come in and save us there. Particularly our interior D. I mean, I'll take Yao, but when Eddy Curry lights you up you're in trouble.

Rocky
03-09-2006, 11:18 AM
I want to see ball movement and player movement. I want to see a point guard deliver the ball to the hot hand. Forget the "go to guy", they have off nights. I want to see guys hurry back on defense after not getting a call instead of standing and whining. Quit the posturing after you have dunked on the other guy, the game isn't over. I want to see a team game. When and if the players appreciate a win more than individual stats we will be successful. Just an opinion from an old guy.

PacerMan
03-09-2006, 11:48 AM
I agree with everyone who is advocating widespread, wholesale changes. We need to find a way to bring in an All-Star big man who can command double teams to help with ball movement and take big shots at the end of games.

Wait...

Listen, one of the reasons we end up in iso ball is because we have four perimenter scorers dominating the offense. It's like when you go play pick up at the gym...everyone takes turns half-heartedly penetrating and kicking it out, and it works for a little while, but then the other team figures out what you're doing and it stops working. Last night it stopped working somewhere around the 4th quarter.
Have you seen the Spurs play? TD draws a double, then he kicks it out to Manu, who swings it to an open, cutting Tony who drops in a teardrop. Most possesions, their whole movement/offensive flow scheme stems from a big guy commanding attention. I still think it was Artest's style of play, not JO's, who was putting us in a stall and grind offense. Movement will improve, hopefully, once JO gets back, partly because he'll get doubled, and partly becuase Jax and AJ won't have alpha-dog, green-light status anymore.

I agree with Pacertom, we should be worrying about our D, JO is not gonna come in and save us there. Particularly our interior D. I mean, I'll take Yao, but when Eddy Curry lights you up you're in trouble.

I agree. Lets trade our whole team and get Shaq, Bosh, TMac,Iverson and Ray Allen.
Sound good enough?

Anthem
03-09-2006, 11:49 AM
I still think it was Artest's style of play, not JO's, who was putting us in a stall and grind offense.
Gotta disagree here. We lacked Ron for last season's playoff push, but as soon as JO came back we went back to ISO-ball.

I don't think it's JO, though. I think it's Carlisle.

bulldog
03-09-2006, 12:11 PM
Gotta disagree here. We lacked Ron for last season's playoff push, but as soon as JO came back we went back to ISO-ball.

I don't think it's JO, though. I think it's Carlisle.

Good point, I've stricken most of that season my memory (and I didn't watch Pacers games much).

I guess my point is that we need to chill out till JO gets back and we see how the team plays a while together (which probably won't happen till next season, unless of course we make a playoff push). With the team we have, I just don't know what people expect in terms of ball movement, all we have is drive and kick. Having a top big man scorer who gets double teams, finally paired with a top-notch outside shooter, should theoretically only improve ball movement and flow. Whether Carlisle will allow it is another question.

Believe_in_blue
03-09-2006, 12:35 PM
I thought the same thing, too. But then I got to thinking. Perhaps selfishness breeds selfishness. In other words, why pass it when you know it might wind up in Jackson's hands, because once it does, bye-bye ball.

I've thought that was the problem for a long time but I didn't know how to say it. Thank you.

beast23
03-09-2006, 12:52 PM
I thought the same thing, too. But then I got to thinking. Perhaps selfishness breeds selfishness. In other words, why pass it when you know it might wind up in Jackson's hands, because once it does, bye-bye ball. I've been pretty neutral about Jax, until these past few games.True.

But I've noticed one thing of our guards, this year and last. In the last possession of a quarter, and it doesn't matter if there is even 15 seconds on the shot clock, the odds are probably better than 50-50 that our guard controlling the ball will NEVER pass off. Jax, Tinsley (even befroe injury), Freddie or AJ. Each one of them can be unreasonably selfish with that las possession.

I've argued for and supported AJ since his first season with the Pacers. But I would have to agree that he is looking a little too much to call his own number at this time. I suppose as well as he was playing during his awesome stretch of 5-6 games, maybe it's become difficult for him to know where that line should be drawn. Or maybe confidence has gotten to his head a little.

I have no problem with AJ having the confidence to get into the lane and take a shot or two. But most of the time, I would prefer he penetrate into the lane and kick it to the open man rather than take a closely contested shot. And as mentioned by others, I don't think we need AJ taking long perimeter shots early in possessions. Same goes for Jackson, unless he's already in the middle of a hot streak.

Although whether to call something iso or not can get a little tricky, I don't think agreeing on some of the situations that are starting to bother us is all that difficult. We are basically talking about those situations that detract from ball movement or immediately driving the ball.

A player holding or dribbling the ball for several seconds on the perimeter, only to eventually call his own number.

A post-up play that ends with the ball in the posting player's hands several seconds as he either jukes for the shot or backs his man down before taking the shot.

But we are all human... we tend to overlook these things when the play is successful and our team scores or at least when it was done to take advantage of a significant mis-match that has developed. But these things are occurring more and more over the last few games.

fwpacerfan
03-09-2006, 01:03 PM
Have you been watching the team since the Artest trade. Your post might have been valid back in December or January, but since the Artest trade, I really disagree with your assesment of the Pacers.

Yes I have and I posted out of disgust which I usually don't do. They've played a lot better but they have had too many lapses into old habits. The Knick game disgusted me greatly. Last night's was a reversion to a month or so ago when they kept blowing leads and is inexcusable. The one thing I can't stand is lack of effort, followed closely by lack of mental toughness. This team often epitomizes both of these traits. You lose big leads by mentally checking out of the game because you think you've won the game. You literally play for a paycheck against a team like the Knicks because you think you can just show up and win.

Sometimes you have the right person in the wrong job. I think that is the case with the Pacers. There are some really good players but they are in the wrong situation. SJax does not fit into Carlisle's system. Neither does Tinsley. I don't think Saras is a good fit either. JO, Peja, Foster and AJ fit nicely but the question is do the Pacers want to stay with this type of gameplan. I think it's time that Bird and Walsh step up and tell Carlisle what direction this team needs to go. It seems that this whole season has been a bunch of mini experiments. It seems that when things were uptempo that the team was more successful and the players put forth a better effort.

DeS
03-09-2006, 02:12 PM
BTW, if we are talking about Bird/Carlisle, fitting players into the system and etc... Anyone has noticed Bird speaking out?



"There will be changes," Bird said. "Not that we're going to trade all our players, but by talking to them. We've been doing that. In the last two or three weeks we've talked to every one of our players. Me and Donnie see the same things that the fans see.
Source... (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060309/SPORTS04/603090475)

Peck
03-09-2006, 02:39 PM
This whole Iso discussion is driving me nuts. It has taken over the board, and I'm getting sick of it. The ball movement last night was outstanding for really the whole game, they ran a lot less iso ball than they did agaisnt the Knicks. But I'll be honest right now I think the lines between iso and non-iso have been so blurred I can't tell the difference anymore.

If they pass the ball three times and it ends up in Jax's hands and he holds it for a few seconds and makes his move is that iso. If AJ gets the ball at the top of the key and penetrates is that iso.

One thing that was different last night is the Rockets doubled jax and even Peja in the post, and that allowed the Pacers to pass out of double teams.

I just think some of you, are getting so obessed with the idea - iso bad, non-iso good, it seems you are focusing on little else.

OK enough of that.

Peck, I assume you were using a little hyperbole to make your offensive rebounding point. But the Pacers have never sent all 5 guys to the glass.


Overall I saw a team last night that gave everything they had. When your bench is Harrison and 3 point guards you know you are in a little bit of trouble. Especially when one of the point guards doesn't play, and the other one is just coming back from 6 weeks off.

In many ways I'm very proud of the team.

The only problem I had with AJ the whole night was the alley-oop pass he tried to make on a fast break. That was ugly. The final shot f the night his little turnaround jumper, many are acting like you've never seen AJ hit that shot before. That is one of his shots.


Oh please, you honestly don't think I know what an isolation play is.

Here, let me describe it for you & if you like I will freeze frame my tivo the next time & try & post it (if I can figure out how to do that).

One player & I don't care who that player is takes the ball on one side of the floor while all four other players go to the opposite side of the floor to thier designated spots. Nobody moves other than the guy with the ball. The person with the ball attempts some move towards the basket, if it's J.O. it is usually a back down & if it's Jackson he is facing the basket & tries driving.

The other players only move laterally at this point & there is no cross court motion or cutting towards the rim. If the player with the ball can get off a shot that is the first option but if not he is supposed to look for the man on the far wing. This leaves one player to attempt a close rebound another player attempting a mid range rebound & the other three players running to the other end to cover the defensive end. I know you love that crap but it is the most boring predictable & yes stoppable offensive play in the NBA.

All you have to do is cut off the passing lanes & with no player movement this is one of the easiest offenses to steal from that was ever created. Thus what you saw last night in the beggining of the third quarter with A.J. when he was picked clean.

Look it has to be a tool, I don't deny that at all. But with Rick it becomes the primary source of offense & let's be honest with this. He wants to score, I'm not saying he doesn't want to, but this offense is not built to score. It is built for ball control & clock management. You will limit turnovers to a point with this offense because generally there is no passing. However all it takes is for the opposition to have one good perimate defender & they will kill you on this because they will disrupt the big man trying to back down by making him pick up his dribble & they will completely shut off the drivers.

I can't stand this offense because it is the epitimey of every bad thing that people who love college & h.s. & even Euro ball complain about the NBA for. It is self indulgent, takes away from the team game & promotes stars at the expense of the team.

Not to mention I HATE HATE HATE the lack of rebounding this offense causes. We were a differant team when we were killing the opponts on the glass & now we are back to relying on individual efforts by either Pollard or Foster to get boards.

Unclebuck
03-09-2006, 03:28 PM
OK Peck, using your definition, I will count the number of Iso plays the Pacers run tomorrow night. I'm curious.

Peck, I wasn't questioning your Basketball IQ or your understanding of what an iso play is. I honestly thought I was getting confused. For example is a 1-4 set an iso - the play they ran to end the game.

Peck, should we go back to a fun argument we had maybe 3 years ago - iso vs post up. Those were the good old days

ChicagoJ
03-09-2006, 04:09 PM
I thought the same thing, too. But then I got to thinking. Perhaps selfishness breeds selfishness. In other words, why pass it when you know it might wind up in Jackson's hands, because once it does, bye-bye ball. I've been pretty neutral about Jax, until these past few games.

bulletproof would've figured that out months ago. Harmonica was just a tad too happy about things and didn't have the same edge.

:D

beast23
03-09-2006, 05:17 PM
Using Peck's definition, I've only liked one player used for isolation in the entire history of the Pacer franchise.

Roger Brown.

Anyone else runs iso, and as far as I'm concerned, there's probably a 60% chance or better that it will end in a wasted possession.

But really, using this definition, I don't see all that many isolations being run.

I see a lot more occassions where one player, whether he's satisfying the definition or not, holds the ball "too long", trying a little too hard and much too long to create his own opportunity. Whether strictly satisfying the definition or not, this is what is hurting our offense.

Peck
03-09-2006, 06:33 PM
Right now I'd say we only get about 10-15 % of our offense is Isolation. But when we initially switched over to the new offense it was only about 5%. But it's still a world better than the 60-70% isolation plays we used to run with both Ron & J.O.

ChicagoJ
03-09-2006, 06:52 PM
I think there is a lot of confusion between a post play and an iso.

I'd never call a play where a post player begins his move with his back to the basket an "iso".

It may deteriorate into one-on-five, which none of us like, but it ain't an "iso" (where you clear out one side of the floor so a player can go one-on-one - facing the basket - against a weak defender.)

Unclebuck
03-09-2006, 09:03 PM
My thing is, no matter if it is a 1-on-four iso, or a "post play" as you call it, why cant the other guys move.

I would shut the hell up and not complain at all is one guy set a back screen or if a guy cut towards the basket.

As it is, all guys just stand still and pray to god that a double team happens.


Well they usually do cut through and there is often some movment. But the reason why there isn't movement all the time, is you want to spread the court as much as you can, to give the post player as much room as possible, and make it as difficult as possible for the doubler teamer to get to the post player. You never want one defender being able to guard two guys and that is what poor spacing does.

Pacesetter
03-09-2006, 09:15 PM
I painted my bathroom. It turned out great too ... painted it cappuccino (Sears brand).

I think I'll paint the master bedroom on Friday ... might even work a bit late on the project!!!!

D-BONE
03-09-2006, 09:47 PM
I think there is a lot of confusion between a post play and an iso.

I'd never call a play where a post player begins his move with his back to the basket an "iso".

It may deteriorate into one-on-five, which none of us like, but it ain't an "iso" (where you clear out one side of the floor so a player can go one-on-one - facing the basket - against a weak defender.)

OK. How bout we call it pseudo iso or quasi iso then?

D-BONE
03-09-2006, 10:06 PM
I understand that, but the Kings used to run that "motion" to perfection with C-Webb or Vlade working the high/low post.

You dont cut to the side where the ball is, but you can cut from the top of the key down to the middle of the key.

UncleBuck, I guess this is just a matter of what we see. You say they usually do cut, but I just cant remember the last time I have seen any man cut and not just stand still and watch and pray a offensive rebound comes his way.

I think w/JO for example they sometimes send a cutter through the middle. Plus they also often have the entry passer run baseline off JO for a possible give and go and I assume that guy can choose baseline or middle. However, I think JO's strength is not passing from this position and that's why it may seem like there aren't any outlets, b/c he almost always ends up shooting. Or maybe the other guys get complacent about moving due to thinking it's unlikely they'll get a pass. Still UB's point about maintaining the spacing is logical. The problem for us is that I think many teams play JO's mediocre or worse passing decisions to their advantage by faking the double and coaxing JO into holding the ball too long instead of passing or making a quick move. So he ends up dominating the possession and there's no ball reversal and/or little player movement.

Peck
03-09-2006, 10:08 PM
I think there is a lot of confusion between a post play and an iso.

I'd never call a play where a post player begins his move with his back to the basket an "iso".

It may deteriorate into one-on-five, which none of us like, but it ain't an "iso" (where you clear out one side of the floor so a player can go one-on-one - facing the basket - against a weak defender.)


I have to disagree with this a little bit.

If four players clear out & go to the other side of the floor then even if the guy with the ball backs his way to the basket, I still consider that an isolation play.

Doug
03-09-2006, 10:14 PM
So, what do you call it when a guy gets the ball and you know all 9 other guys on the floor know he's not going to pass it to anybody, but instead is going to try to beat his man, and the help defense, and then throw up a bad shot?

A "Jackson"?
A "Johnson"?
A "Freddie"?

All of the above?

OK, it was a trick question, I know the real name is the "Kobe", but he gets a decent shot fairly often.

We just do not have good enough players to reliably put the ball in one person's hands and let them do something with it, to the exclusion of everybody else.

Outlaw
03-09-2006, 10:26 PM
I have to disagree with this a little bit.

If four players clear out & go to the other side of the floor then even if the guy with the ball backs his way to the basket, I still consider that an isolation play.


I agree.:)

ChicagoJ
03-10-2006, 12:11 AM
I have to disagree with this a little bit.

If four players clear out & go to the other side of the floor then even if the guy with the ball backs his way to the basket, I still consider that an isolation play.

Fair point.

D-BONE
03-10-2006, 07:26 AM
I think the one thing keeping JO from getting from that void inbetween superstar and just "star" is his passing, but he has come a long ways from that New Jersey playoff series where he couldnt pass out of a double team to save his life.

I understand the point about passing, but I dont see that as an excuse for why there cant be motion.

We need another thread to discuss your last point about ball reversal. I think the Pacers miss a lot of opurtunities by not swinging the ball at certain times

Agree that JO has made efforts to improve his passing and there are flashes. Still needs to get to a more consistent level with it. The ball reversal thing is irritating. Seems that this has never been a priority in RC's offense, or at least there's times when it seems completely ignored in execution.

sixthman
03-10-2006, 09:34 AM
It's funny after watching this game, I feel exactly like I did after the start of the season when every player thought it was up to them to save the team from drowning - and ended up pulling the team under that much faster.

Really well said. I felt the same way too.

BillS
03-10-2006, 09:35 AM
I think the idea is to either allow the ballhandler to score with single coverage or to force the double.

The problem is that either the double isn't happening due to our crap shooting, or the double happens and the ball handler simply doesn't pass out of it.

Is it court vision, ability, or ego?

Kegboy
03-10-2006, 12:59 PM
A true isolation is when the ball handler is the only strong side player, regardless of if he's facing the basket or not. You can have motion even off of an iso, believe it or not. The problem isn't isolation, it's no movement.

BlueNGold
03-11-2006, 08:41 PM
I would think we could dictate some matchups with DH and JO on the floor.

If JO is guarded by the best post defender, it will usually be a guy not as mobile as JO. Then, JO should be in the high post drilling jumpers or driving by his man with DH putting on pressure down low.

If JO is guarded by a smaller, quicker forward he should go down low and dominate with DH on the outside. DH has a solid mid range jumper as well and will draw the other big defender out. Of course Peja's defender will need to be all over him...so it is one-on-one and JO would be unstoppable.

The problem we have had in the past is that the guy guarding Jeff Foster or Pollard could collapse on JO.....or maybe our SF position did not require the perimeter defense it does with Peja....so the SF would help. With Peja and DH on the floor, that is not nearly as likely.

We need to start DH with JO, Peja, Jax and Tinsley. Let the backups be backups. Let Cro, Granger, Sarunas and Freddie be the offense when the backups put in their 10-15 minutes/game.

LjuboDaMan
03-12-2006, 05:08 AM
I'd like to see Peja get more late-game opportunities, too. It's logical as he's the best shooter. However, it would be to disprove my take on him, which is he doesn't have the will and mental toughness to hit, and sometimes to work to get open, in late game situations. I know that could by a myth perpetuated by frustrated Kings fans, but I had an excellent view of him shooting those crucial FTs at the end (and OT) of the Altanta game at home and he was extremely uncomfortable and not at all successful under pressure. At least give him some looks to see what he can do though.

hm i dont know what you saw but he rarely misses free throws late in the game ... any kings fan can tell u that hehe