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View Full Version : Could Granger play SG?



skyfire
03-07-2006, 12:52 AM
With all the talk of re-signing Peja and him not being able to play SG, thereby limiting the minutes that Granger could potentially get, I thought I'd pose this question...

Could Granger play SG? atleast on the defensive end which Peja decidedly could not.

While he might struggle against the quickest of SGs, I think he could do a good job against the bulk of NBA SGs.

But any discussion about this has to bring Rip Hamilton into the equation. Barring a major disaster, any future playoff runs will have to go through the Pistons at some stage, and stopping Rip (or atleast slowing him down) is very important to beating them.

Is a lineup of "some PG/Granger/Peja/JO/Hulk" feasible?

Evan_The_Dude
03-07-2006, 01:04 AM
I see it as playing a two SF lineup more than one playing the 2 and the other playing the 3. Just let Granger guard the better offensive player and let it play on from there. Hell, if 6'8" 210lb Boris Diaw can play center and his team still wins, anything is possible. This all is of course assuming Jackson isn't here, or loses his starting spot - both of which I don't think will happen.

Hicks
03-07-2006, 01:30 AM
I suppose that could work. I'd at least like to see it attempted before it's completely dismissed. Let Granger guard the other team's 2, and let Peja play the role of a 2 on offense, which he basically already does. Granger's intelligence and length would allow him to guard a multitude of smaller people.

Peck
03-07-2006, 01:59 AM
Let me be the one to outright dismiss this.

NO!!!!!

Hell NO!!!!!!

I do NOT want another multi-role player who will be good at a lot of things & excell at nothing.

This guy has a chance to be star at the small forward spot. I hate that we are playing him at the four right now, I do not want to see him further confused by going to the two.

Roles are roles for a reason. A small forward is not the same job as a shooting guard nor is a power forward a center or a center a point guard or etc., etc.

If it means Danny has to sit next year & be the super sub off of the bench so be it, but I would rather not have him out trying to chase Micheal Redd around when in reality this guy is already a lockdown defender at the three.

Now in short spans? sure. If injury's or matchups dictate, yes. But that is all, I do NOT want to see the guy play there other than that.

Bball
03-07-2006, 03:22 AM
Let me be the one to outright dismiss this.

NO!!!!!

Hell NO!!!!!!

I do NOT want another multi-role player who will be good at a lot of things & excell at nothing.

This guy has a chance to be star at the small forward spot. I hate that we are playing him at the four right now, I do not want to see him further confused by going to the two.

Roles are roles for a reason. A small forward is not the same job as a shooting guard nor is a power forward a center or a center a point guard or etc., etc.

If it means Danny has to sit next year & be the super sub off of the bench so be it, but I would rather not have him out trying to chase Micheal Redd around when in reality this guy is already a lockdown defender at the three.

Now in short spans? sure. If injury's or matchups dictate, yes. But that is all, I do NOT want to see the guy play there other than that.


Word!

I want players predominantly playing their natural positions. There's wisdom in this phrase: "Jack of all trades, master of none"

-Bball

Will Galen
03-07-2006, 04:11 AM
Peja is listed as a F-G, and Danny Gee played some G in collage. I posted a quote a couple months ago where Danny said he expected to play some guard in the NBA. Conrad had a piece this Summer where he said Danny was expected to play some guard. Instead the powers that be want him to play PF too.

I hope Danny has the sense not to bulk up this Summer. The powers that be had Rick Smits bulk up and it almost ended his career. I don't think bulking up has helped JO either. Sure it means he can bang with the bigger guys now, but I think he gets injured more often. I don't think bulking up to much is good for a young guy. A bit helps, but weight should come more natural.

#31
03-07-2006, 06:17 AM
I dont see why he could not play as SG......

Mourning
03-07-2006, 07:21 AM
With Croshere in his last year and Bender not around anymore I see it as more likely that his second position is going to be PF, provided that Peja stays with the team, offcourse.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

McKeyFan
03-07-2006, 10:32 AM
I suppose that could work. I'd at least like to see it attempted before it's completely dismissed. Let Granger guard the other team's 2, and let Peja play the role of a 2 on offense, which he basically already does. Granger's intelligence and length would allow him to guard a multitude of smaller people.

I agree with this.

Except I'd add what someone else said about Granger just guarding the best offensive player, like Artest did.

In this scenario, Granger is not "confused" on the offensive end. He plays the 3, Peja plays the 2.

I think this could work. Our biggest barrier is Jackson's longterm contract.

waxman
03-07-2006, 10:59 AM
Yes please.

ChicagoJ
03-07-2006, 11:01 AM
Danny played SG in college? I've never heard that.

Like James Jones, he was a 3/4 tweener in college. He's a natural "3" skills-wise with the perfect size to play the "3". It would be a colossal coaching mistake to put Danny at SG.

Peja has a better chance of playing SG in the role of a super-sized Chris Mullin or Reggie Miller. You're gonna give up something on the defensive end but if Peja can fill it up you're probably net-net on the one-on-one matchup and with a better *team* offense.

I said this last night but I'd rather S&T Peja for a true SG. Throw in SJax and take back a backup center to make salaries match. Somebody can work up something in which the Pacers either get Ben Gordon or Luke Jackson - two other players Bird is (was?) reporedly high on that could fit nicely on our team.

Hicks
03-07-2006, 11:05 AM
Ben Gordon would not fit nicely on this team as far as what I've read about him. He's like a selfish Fred Jones. A volume shooter.

ChicagoJ
03-07-2006, 11:10 AM
Your choice of words cracks me up.

"He's like a selfish Fred Jones". Most nights, that would make him Fred Jones.

:D

By the way, I was throwing out hypothetical names of players that we've read that Bird likes or used to like. Those aren't *my* top choices but players I could see as possible targets in a S&T scenario.

jcouts
03-07-2006, 11:29 AM
I think Granger could play shooting guard...but, I doubt he would be able to do what he does best from the SG position. He would be expending a lot of energy on the defensive end guarding the other team's best player, and probably wouldn't have much of anything left on the offensive end to contribute. If I were a coach, I wouldn't play him at the 2 unless it was against a team with a weaker SG.

PacerMan
03-07-2006, 11:45 AM
Your choice of words cracks me up.

"He's like a selfish Fred Jones". Most nights, that would make him Fred Jones.

:D

By the way, I was throwing out hypothetical names of players that we've read that Bird likes or used to like. Those aren't *my* top choices but players I could see as possible targets in a S&T scenario.


BS- Fred is one of the most unselfish players in the league.

Anthem
03-07-2006, 11:49 AM
I agree with Peck, Bball, and Jay.

Mark the date, ladies and gentlemen.

PacerMan
03-07-2006, 11:49 AM
Everyone seems to be forgetting that lb for lb Danny is likely our best REBOUNDER!!!!!! And a surprisingly good shot blocker.
He WILL be one of the best rebounding 3's in the league.
COULD he do it? Maybe
Do you want him out on the perimeter chasing guards and keeping the status quo of us being a weak rebounding team??
HELL NO!!!!!!!!

ChicagoJ
03-07-2006, 12:00 PM
BS- Fred is one of the most unselfish players in the league.

We must not be watching the same "black hole" Jones. You know... where the ball goes it, but you know its never coming back out.

When he gets the ball, his only thought is "what shot am I gonna take?" Of course, he's never really turned into a good ball handler or passer (thus, the end of the "Fred Jones as a combo guard" expiriment"), so I guess that beats the alternative.

Although, it could also be argued that Fred's just playing his role right now... Lately, when he's been on the court, he has frequently been the first or second option.

I'd just like him to be a bit less predictable and to see him capitalize on opportunities he creates for his teammates. When's the last time he did a drive-and-dish? College? When Tinsley was healthy? I don't know - its certainly a rare bird.

Gamble
03-07-2006, 12:29 PM
I would say no. I don't see him quick enough to guard the 2 and
he himself likes to bang with the PF's. This to me is just wishful thinking.
Trying to get him minutes at the wrong spot won't further his
development it will hinder him from being effective at one.

Roy Munson
03-07-2006, 12:32 PM
Your choice of words cracks me up.

"He's like a selfish Fred Jones". Most nights, that would make him Fred Jones.

:D



I think this is really unfair to Freddy. I quickly checked a few players to compare shots attempted per minutes played, and here is what I found:

2005-2006
Ben Gordon .479 spm
Stephen Jackson .384 spm
Jamaal Tinsley .352 spm
Freddy Jones .318 spm

2004-2005
Ben Gordon .527 spm
Stephen Jackson .453 spm
Jamaal Tinsley .401 spm
Freddy Jones .285 spm

2003-2004
Stephen Jackson .429 spm
Jamaal Tinsley .268 spm
Freddy Jones .206 spm

I'd hardly call Freddy a "black hole". I'd call him a very unselfish player, especially for a 2-guard.

RWB
03-07-2006, 12:32 PM
Please tell me Danny hasn't been grumbling about playing time or starting yet? Would it really kill the PAcers to have two good players at the 3?

rexnom
03-07-2006, 12:36 PM
How about a flipped question? Can Peja play the 2 well enough? After much thought, I think, I would like to see Danny play the 3 defensively so he can get those blocks and rebounds. He is too good on the inside to ignore those skills and put him on the perimeter. At the 3 he can go in and out. It's perfect for his skillset.

Unclebuck
03-07-2006, 12:45 PM
Granger is more of a power forward than he is a small a shooting guard.

ChicagoJ
03-07-2006, 12:49 PM
I think this is really unfair to Freddy. I quickly checked a few players to compare shots attempted per minutes played, and here is what I found:

2005-2006
Ben Gordon .479 spm
Stephen Jackson .384 spm
Jamaal Tinsley .352 spm
Freddy Jones .318 spm

2004-2005
Ben Gordon .527 spm
Stephen Jackson .453 spm
Jamaal Tinsley .401 spm
Freddy Jones .285 spm

2003-2004
Stephen Jackson .429 spm
Jamaal Tinsley .268 spm
Freddy Jones .206 spm

I'd hardly call Freddy a "black hole". I'd call him a very unselfish player, especially for a 2-guard.

An interesting argument.

As much as I hate to look at stats, there are some interesting trends here.

Jamaal and Fred had big increases in 2004/05 because their roles changed in light of all the suspensions. Jamaal's SPM wend back down this season, while Fred's continued to rise.

I acknowledged in a later post that perhaps Fred is just playing his role. But even this stat shows his SPM is up 50% in a two-year period. I'd have less to complain about from Fred, like I said, if he wasn't so damn predictable.

You and I talked about this a long time ago. I'd love to see Fred add two things to his game - a stop-and-pop move for a midrange jumper, and better ability to read and react when the defense collapses on him at the rim because he misses a lot of assist opportunites. Lately, he's finishing those drives with an extremely high level of profeciency, but that seems to come and go in cycles for him.

Regardless, this stat probably does confirm to me that I don't want any part of Ben Gordon on the Pacers.

:D

Hicks
03-07-2006, 12:52 PM
Granger is more of a power forward than he is a small a shooting guard.

Granger is a prototypical SF.

Mourning
03-07-2006, 01:08 PM
Granger is a prototypical SF.

Absolutely! But, IF you were to play him at another position for a (small) period of time I would rather place him at PF then at SG, especially if we are depending on ball movement.

I think we will see Danny getting minutes at PF instead of Bender, but he hardly ever played, so that's not of much consequence and instead of Croshere aswell.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Mordecaii
03-07-2006, 01:09 PM
Jay-

First of all, Ben Gordon is an undersized SG. Do you really want another undersized SG on this team that can't even defend as well as Freddie? On top of that, Gordon's not doing as well this year since he has to start games.

Freddie has added a stop-and-pop midrange jumper, I've seen him use it a lot this year. I've also seen him pass the ball as he was driving quite a few times. The problem is, usually when he drives he needs to take the shot because it's the best shot available... Why have a guy get to the rim only to pass it out for a more difficult shot? I honestly don't know where you got your Fred Jones info, but apparently we're watching alternate realities or something...

ChicagoJ
03-07-2006, 01:33 PM
When the defense collapses at the rim, the weak-side player is wide open for a short shot or dunk. Yes, I know, he shouldn't really pass to Stone Hands (Pollard) and Oven-Mitts (Foster), but he should pass to David, JO, Danny, Croshere, etc.

The whole point of drawing a double-team (or forcing the defense to collapse) isn't to dunk over them, its to move the ball into the seam of the defense for the easy shot.

denyfizle
03-07-2006, 01:46 PM
not likely. perhaps he could, but i really doubt it. he crashes the boards and is more effective playing that way. he's really best suited at SF. but you never know. he might redefine his game and be a more potent shooter and penetrator to be better suited at the SG spot.

PacerMan
03-07-2006, 01:49 PM
We must not be watching the same "black hole" Jones. You know... where the ball goes it, but you know its never coming back out.

When he gets the ball, his only thought is "what shot am I gonna take?" Of course, he's never really turned into a good ball handler or passer (thus, the end of the "Fred Jones as a combo guard" expiriment"), so I guess that beats the alternative.

Although, it could also be argued that Fred's just playing his role right now... Lately, when he's been on the court, he has frequently been the first or second option.

I'd just like him to be a bit less predictable and to see him capitalize on opportunities he creates for his teammates. When's the last time he did a drive-and-dish? College? When Tinsley was healthy? I don't know - its certainly a rare bird.


Yes, that is his role. That's why he's in contention for the 6th man award.
Bet you said the same things about Al?

Mourning
03-07-2006, 01:54 PM
Yes, that is his role. That's why he's in contention for the 6th man award.
Bet you said the same things about Al?

I don't aggree on Freddie beying a black hole. Sure, he's taking more shots, but I have no doubt that those are his "orders" from Rick as he's the first option of the second unit.

I would aggree on Al beying a black hole, atleast in his last year here and probably the year before that too. I doubt Rick approved some of the shots Al took back then.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Slick Pinkham
03-07-2006, 02:26 PM
back on topic,

Putting on my offensive cap, I'd like to see opposing shooting guards try to defend either Danny or Peja.

They won't be able to do it.

We gain more on our end than we give up on their end, in my opinion.

On D, I'd let Peja defend some SGs, Danny others, and there are very few that neither could handle.

Eindar
03-07-2006, 02:39 PM
I think this is exactly the reason that Walsh took so long to trade Artest for Peja. Inevitably, one of them will have to go, once Danny makes the leap. However, until a time where Danny is scoring 20, 10, and a couple blocks, he should back up Peja, and find minutes where he can. I predict this happens at the end of next season.

Diesel_81
03-07-2006, 02:50 PM
back on topic,

Putting on my offensive cap, I'd like to see opposing shooting guards try to defend either Danny or Peja.

They won't be able to do it.

We gain more on our end than we give up on their end, in my opinion.

On D, I'd let Peja defend some SGs, Danny others, and there are very few that neither could handle.

I agree with that.If you put a two guard on Peja they will never be able to contest his shot, and if the opposing team sticks a guard on Granger ,Granger would have his way in the post. I have no problem with Peja/Granger combo at the two and three position and I think it will work. It will cause a ton of matchup problems for other teams and they would have to adjust to us.

Will Galen
03-07-2006, 03:10 PM
I agree with that.If you put a two guard on Peja they will never be able to contest his shot, and if the opposing team sticks a guard on Granger ,Granger would have his way in the post. I have no problem with Peja/Granger combo at the two and three position and I think it will work. It will cause a ton of matchup problems for other teams and they would have to adjust to us.

I'd like to see it tried. I think if we played Peja like Reggie Miller he could do it. Of course we need to resign Fred and pick up another quick guard because we get killed by quick guards.

ChicagoJ
03-07-2006, 03:49 PM
Yes, that is his role. That's why he's in contention for the 6th man award.
Bet you said the same things about Al?

I never said anything bad about Al. I ususally had your (and Tim's) back there.

I've said numerous times that Al shouldn't have lost his starting spot when he was injured, that knucklehead should've been his backup. For everyone that thought he was a black hole, if it were true, there was a darn good reason for it.

I didn't like Al's reliance on the fadeaway, but when he got the ball in the paint I didn't want him to pass, I wanted him to shoot.

That's the difference, I guess. In my world, the guards handle the ball for the purpose of setting up shots for the forwards and centers. And the forwards and centers should look to shoot the ball.

Knucklehead Warrior
03-07-2006, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Roy Munson
I think this is really unfair to Freddy. I quickly checked a few players to compare shots attempted per minutes played, and here is what I found:

Wrong stat. Tell us instead how many times the ball goes into him and he passes it back out?

SoupIsGood
03-07-2006, 04:47 PM
I think Peja will be traded for a SG in the offseason

Roy Munson
03-07-2006, 05:07 PM
Wrong stat. Tell us instead how many times the ball goes into him and he passes it back out?

Without review a replay of every game of his career, I can't give you that information. So, instead, I checked Assists per Minute on the floor of four different SG's, for comparison.

Freddy Jones (past 3 seasons), 0.093 APM
Reggie Miller (last 3 seasons of career), 0.087 APM
S. Jackson (past 3 seasons), 0.078 APM
Ben Gordon (past 2 seasons), 0.086 APM

If nothing else, this tells me that Freddy appears to be sharing the ball a normal amount for a SG.

PacerMan
03-07-2006, 05:27 PM
I never said anything bad about Al. I ususally had your (and Tim's) back there.

I've said numerous times that Al shouldn't have lost his starting spot when he was injured, that knucklehead should've been his backup. For everyone that thought he was a black hole, if it were true, there was a darn good reason for it.

I didn't like Al's reliance on the fadeaway, but when he got the ball in the paint I didn't want him to pass, I wanted him to shoot.

That's the difference, I guess. In my world, the guards handle the ball for the purpose of setting up shots for the forwards and centers. And the forwards and centers should look to shoot the ball.

Fair enough. Apologies. :)

ChicagoJ
03-07-2006, 06:08 PM
Fair enough. Apologies. :)

No apology needed. :cool:

ChicagoJ
03-07-2006, 06:11 PM
Without review a replay of every game of his career, I can't give you that information. So, instead, I checked Assists per Minute on the floor of four different SG's, for comparison.

Freddy Jones (past 3 seasons), 0.093 APM
Reggie Miller (last 3 seasons of career), 0.087 APM
S. Jackson (past 3 seasons), 0.078 APM
Ben Gordon (past 2 seasons), 0.086 APM

If nothing else, this tells me that Freddy appears to be sharing the ball a normal amount for a SG.

Yeah, I had always hoped that Fred would turn into the combo guard that I still think this team needs (remember, in my eight-man rotation, only three guards play). He didn't, and to some extent I need to stop comparing him to PGs because he's just not going to be a guy that creates a bunch of opportunities for his teammates. And yet, he seems so close to getting there...

The SG comparisons are probably more representative.

Anthem
03-07-2006, 06:42 PM
I think Peja will be traded for a SG in the offseason
He's a free agent.

In my ideal world, we S&T him to Chicago, but they've got a payroll of under $20 mil next season. They'll sign him outright.

We've got a better chance with Toronto, but still.