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SwissExpress
03-05-2006, 09:47 PM
And to a considerable extent. It's just difficult to read some of the recent threads.

Firstly, discussions about Saras have themselves become very superficial. And the vocabulary has changed and become boring; while it was interesting to see all the "STFU", "lovers", "haters", "no defense", "clutch", "shaky passes", "backup", "third string" etc vocabulary in the beginning, the vocabulary now actually dominates the discussion. That's the worst thing that can happen to any discussion.

Secondly, all the anger. I don't remember posters ****ing about other posters in this forum when I first came here. Now I often see rather insulting posts regarding Saras-haters or Saras-lovers, and rather often they are even out of context. In other words, posters started bashing each other just for the sake of bashing, not because of what someone says. Sometimes it reminds me of the many low-quality European basketball forums, dominated by teenagers.

Thirdly, those problems have spread to other areas as well. For instance, lets take the recent thread I started - the one where I posted an article regarding Jewish extremists' reaction to Saras' wedding. The thread was actually closed in the end, which was probably the best solution as discussion was very dissapointing. Once again it was full of unsupported anger - smth I don't remember in this forum several mothes ago, when Saras-related discussions took off to new levels. In that particular thread, some of the posters were bashing one or another participant of the story - without clear arguments; some were bashing the discussion itself - quite justly, though again without arguments; and some were bashing me for starting the thread - with arguments so strange that they are hardly arguments (because I have conections with Switzerland, because the posted article is related to an extremist from Israel, because there are many Jews-haters in Lithuania, and because the Jewish extremist is of the right wing; well, considering that Switzerland has mostly been saving Jews during the 2nd WW, that Pacers Digest is hardly related to the number of Jews-haters in Lithuania, and that there are hardly any other extremists in Israel but right-wing extremists, I could hardly understand all that anger and willingness to "STFU", even though I have some Jewish among my relatives myself...). And that thread is just one example.

All said, some measures must be taken. That's the point for this discussion. Maybe add a sticky thread for the Saras-related comments? Currently, for instance, while I like reading Peck's post-game comments, I'm starting to skip any discussion below them as I'm always 99% sure that it will be full of Saras-related or other angry clashes. I remember times when discussions initiated by Peck's recaps were as interesting as those recaps themselves...

Kstat
03-05-2006, 09:48 PM
:lurk:

You all kill each other off, and I come out on top.....

....everything is going according to plan. I knew it was a good idea to send a Sarunas highlight film to Larry's office.... :evil:

BigMac
03-05-2006, 10:01 PM
And to a considerable extent. It's just difficult to read some of the recent threads.

Firstly, discussions about Saras have themselves become very superficial. And the vocabulary has changed and become boring; while it was interesting to see all the "STFU", "lovers", "haters", "no defense", "clutch", "shaky passes", "backup", "third string" etc vocabulary in the beginning, the vocabulary now actually dominates the discussion. That's the worst thing that can happen to any discussion.

Secondly, all the anger. I don't remember posters ****ing about other posters in this forum when I first came here. Now I often see rather insulting posts regarding Saras-haters or Saras-lovers, and rather often they are even out of context. In other words, posters started bashing each other just for the sake of bashing, not because of what someone says. Sometimes it reminds me of the many low-quality European basketball forums, dominated by teenagers.

Thirdly, those problems have spread to other areas as well. For instance, lets take the recent thread I started - the one where I posted an article regarding Jewish extremists' reaction to Saras' wedding. The thread was actually closed in the end, which was probably the best solution as discussion was very dissapointing. Once again it was full of unsupported anger - smth I don't remember in this forum several mothes ago, when Saras-related discussions took off to new levels. In that particular thread, some of the posters were bashing one or another participant of the story - without clear arguments; some were bashing the discussion itself - quite justly, though again without arguments; and some were bashing me for starting the thread - with arguments so strange that they are hardly arguments (because I have conections with Switzerland, because the posted article is related to an extremist from Israel, because there are many Jews-haters in Lithuania, and because the Jewish extremist is of the right wing; well, considering that Switzerland has mostly been saving Jews during the 2nd WW, that Pacers Digest is hardly related to the number of Jews-haters in Lithuania, and that there are hardly any other extremists in Israel but right-wing extremists, I could hardly understand all that anger and willingness to "STFU", even though I have some Jewish among my relatives myself...). And that thread is just one example.

All said, some measures must be taken. That's the point for this discussion. Maybe add a sticky thread for the Saras-related comments? Currently, for instance, while I like reading Peck's post-game comments, I'm starting to skip any discussion below them as I'm always 99% sure that it will be full of Saras-related or other angry clashes. I remember times when discussions initiated by Peck's recaps were as interesting as those recaps themselves...

I agree on all points. I don't read as much as I used to here because it seems to be a bunch of nitpicking and complaining about the players, other posters, whatever. I also don't post and respond to posts as often at all because it seems that there are a bunch of people who are just waiting to "attack" someone's point of view instead of discussing the other view and making a point.

Also I have noticed that there are a lot of posters who don't say a lot in their posts but write a bunch of negative stuff just to be negative or confrontational. To put it simply, it's just not as fun here anymore. And maybe it also is because the team isn't the team I had envisioned it as being-and somewhat tough to get a feel for?

Ralph Snart
03-05-2006, 10:12 PM
And to a considerable extent. It's just difficult to read some of the recent threads.

Firstly, discussions about Saras have themselves become very superficial. And the vocabulary has changed and become boring; while it was interesting to see all the "STFU", "lovers", "haters", "no defense", "clutch", "shaky passes", "backup", "third string" etc vocabulary in the beginning, the vocabulary now actually dominates the discussion. That's the worst thing that can happen to any discussion.

Secondly, all the anger. I don't remember posters ****ing about other posters in this forum when I first came here. Now I often see rather insulting posts regarding Saras-haters or Saras-lovers, and rather often they are even out of context. In other words, posters started bashing each other just for the sake of bashing, not because of what someone says. Sometimes it reminds me of the many low-quality European basketball forums, dominated by teenagers.

Thirdly, those problems have spread to other areas as well. For instance, lets take the recent thread I started - the one where I posted an article regarding Jewish extremists' reaction to Saras' wedding. The thread was actually closed in the end, which was probably the best solution as discussion was very dissapointing. Once again it was full of unsupported anger - smth I don't remember in this forum several mothes ago, when Saras-related discussions took off to new levels. In that particular thread, some of the posters were bashing one or another participant of the story - without clear arguments; some were bashing the discussion itself - quite justly, though again without arguments; and some were bashing me for starting the thread - with arguments so strange that they are hardly arguments (because I have conections with Switzerland, because the posted article is related to an extremist from Israel, because there are many Jews-haters in Lithuania, and because the Jewish extremist is of the right wing; well, considering that Switzerland has mostly been saving Jews during the 2nd WW, that Pacers Digest is hardly related to the number of Jews-haters in Lithuania, and that there are hardly any other extremists in Israel but right-wing extremists, I could hardly understand all that anger and willingness to "STFU", even though I have some Jewish among my relatives myself...). And that thread is just one example.

All said, some measures must be taken. That's the point for this discussion. Maybe add a sticky thread for the Saras-related comments? Currently, for instance, while I like reading Peck's post-game comments, I'm starting to skip any discussion below them as I'm always 99% sure that it will be full of Saras-related or other angry clashes. I remember times when discussions initiated by Peck's recaps were as interesting as those recaps themselves...

I think part of the problem is that we have attracted a certain fan element that really wants to see Saras succeed over here, and at the same time is reduced to box scores when it comes to hard information.

I can relate, as I spent about 12 months in Taiwan during the 90s, so keeping up with anything was limited to delayed internet updates (which back then were even harder to come by).

It's a very desperate situation, as there is this team (or in this case, person) that you are a big fan of, and you are information starved. Then, maddingly enough, this person's stats are widely erratic. He posts great games some nights, very poor games other nights. It makes you that much more defensive, because in the end, you are a TRUE FAN if you are going to this much effort to follow something.

For Saras fans, I think they need to understand that Saras needs more experience in the NBA game before he gets better minutes and starts producing more regular numbers. He is a good player and he has passion for the game, I can't see why he won't succeed. But for the love of God, stop doggedly defending him at the end of every game if he has a poor one, and stop saying he should be the starter after a good one.

For Pacers fans, just learn to deal with it. :D

Peck
03-05-2006, 10:16 PM
I agree on all points. I don't read as much as I used to here because it seems to be a bunch of nitpicking and complaining about the players, other posters, whatever. I also don't post and respond to posts as often at all because it seems that there are a bunch of people who are just waiting to "attack" someone's point of view instead of discussing the other view and making a point.

Also I have noticed that there are a lot of posters who don't say a lot in their posts but write a bunch of negative stuff just to be negative or confrontational. To put it simply, it's just not as fun here anymore. And maybe it also is because the team isn't the team I had envisioned it as being-and somewhat tough to get a feel for?


I think there is a lot more to that than what people realize.

I was speaking to Roaming Gnome & Hicks after the last home game & we talked about how the board has seemed more confrontational.

I surmised that the problem really was that this team is in flux & therefor we have a group of people who have no idea of how this team will be or where it will go.

Let's take Uncle Buck for example, I can pick on him because he knows I respect him, but do you really think this is the team or the style of play that he had envisioned when the season began? I would guess no.

Take any fan of our team that is 19 years old or younger. They would have been 13 years or younger when our team was at a real championship level & many of them have only become familiar with the team or aware of the team over the past 4 years or so.

So to them Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest & Jamaal Tinsley are the Pacers.

Not a one of them are on the floor for our team right now.

Many of them have held onto Jon Bender (rightfully or wrongly we will not debate that here) & the promise of his potential & now that is not going to be realized.

I think there are a lot of people who don't really know this team right now & don't even have a clue as to what this team will be.

Even those of us that like the new team have to admit we have no idea how the new team will be once J.O. & Jamaal return. Will we be the same team we are now with a more active J.O. or will we revert to a half court team who sloggs it out. Nobody knows for sure.

What the hell does any of this have to do with Saras? Nothing, I just thought I would put this observation here.

As to the Saras thing it boils down to one thing & one thing only generally.

You either think Saras is a superstar who is being held down by the man or you think he is a good player who has issues.

Notice I don't think anybody hates the guy, I think he adds things when he is on the floor.

I don't blame our Euro friends for being confused & I don't even blame Saras for being confused.

Anthem
03-05-2006, 10:23 PM
I don't really disagree with anything you said, Peck, but in my (confused) mind, at any rate, this is a pretty big issue:

I think part of the problem is that we have attracted a certain fan element that really wants to see Saras succeed over here, and at the same time is reduced to box scores when it comes to hard information.
Look, I don't mind getting people on the boards that are fans of indiv. players rather than the Pacers. LoboRick comes around every once and a while solely because of Granger. In the early days, we picked up a couple of Tinsley's college fans. That's totally cool.

But most of the Saras discussions have a different element... I don't want to name the elephant at this point, but there's no doubt that our European friends have changed the nature of the board a bit.

Anthem
03-05-2006, 10:24 PM
You all kill each other off, and I come out on top.....
[ultimate showdown]

Mister Rogers, is that you?

[/ultimate showdown]

SwissExpress
03-05-2006, 10:26 PM
I think there is a lot more to that than what people realize.

I was speaking to Roaming Gnome & Hicks after the last home game & we talked about how the board has seemed more confrontational.

I surmised that the problem really was that this team is in flux & therefor we have a group of people who have no idea of how this team will be or where it will go.

Let's take Uncle Buck for example, I can pick on him because he knows I respect him, but do you really think this is the team or the style of play that he had envisioned when the season began? I would guess no.

Take any fan of our team that is 19 years old or younger. They would have been 13 years or younger when our team was at a real championship level & many of them have only become familiar with the team or aware of the team over the past 4 years or so.

So to them Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest & Jamaal Tinsley are the Pacers.

Not a one of them are on the floor for our team right now.

Many of them have held onto Jon Bender (rightfully or wrongly we will not debate that here) & the promise of his potential & now that is not going to be realized.

I think there are a lot of people who don't really know this team right now & don't even have a clue as to what this team will be.

Even those of us that like the new team have to admit we have no idea how the new team will be once J.O. & Jamaal return. Will we be the same team we are now with a more active J.O. or will we revert to a half court team who sloggs it out. Nobody knows for sure.

What the hell does any of this have to do with Saras? Nothing, I just thought I would put this observation here.

As to the Saras thing it boils down to one thing & one thing only generally.

You either think Saras is a superstar who is being held down by the man or you think he is a good player who has issues.

Notice I don't think anybody hates the guy, I think he adds things when he is on the floor.

I don't blame our Euro friends for being confused & I don't even blame Saras for being confused.

While I agree with all of it, and I like the eventual optimism is those words, I have to wonder if waiting (for the team to become a contender again and for Saras to get better, so that this board becomes less confrontational) is the only solution in this situation.

Hicks
03-05-2006, 10:31 PM
Folks,

I too am starting to commonly skip over most posts because they may as well be scripted as soon as Jasikevicius pops up in the discussion. The bickering has become meaningless, and worse it's damaging the community and the forum itself. The only people who can change it, are all of us, together. We make and we break this place by how we choose to carry ourselves, and things must improve or this place will become "just another forum". I don't want this place to ever become that, and if you care about PD, neither do you.

Folks, we've come to a crossroads with the latest issues around here. We can either choose to continue down a path of mediocrity, or worse, or we can choose to take a higher road, and get back to civil discussion that amounts to a lot more than taking rehearsed shots at one another. We need to make PD strong again. Right now, it's pretty damn average. We are way, way beyond caring about who started what, who spurred on who, or what someone said to make someone else mad and respond with more anger. It's time to grow up, and move on.

I consider the thread about the Jewish discussion an exception to this, but it needs to be addressed as well. If anyone REALLY feels the need to discuss it, the News & Politics board is where it should start. And if ANYONE feels the need to get personal with one another, it needs to start and end someplace else than Pacers Digest; ANY part of it. Here, the N&P board, anywhere. PD is not here for that, and it never will be.

While I'm here, I also want to ask that there be less swearing and overall harshness. I know that's subjective, but do we really need to constantly see "****" 's peppering posts? Do we need to see "So and so sucks!!" Aren't we better than that, as a community? I'd like to think so. And if the answer in any of your minds is "no", then think about how you can help change that. This place can be so much better, and it's very attainable.

I know that a lot of you don't really respect me as the leader of this place, but if you don't care about what I think, at least care about the people that make this place worth coming to (and that means you), and try to improve yourself and this board for the good of it and everyone that comes here. As the population and popularity of this forum grows, so must its standards. Only you, the posters, can make it happen. I'm just the guy behind the curtain.

Thanks for reading,

- Hicks

Anthem
03-05-2006, 10:44 PM
I know that a lot of you don't really respect me as the leader of this place, but if you don't care about what I think, at least care about the people that make this place worth coming to (and that means you), and try to improve yourself and this board for the good of it and everyone that comes here. As the population and popularity of this forum grows, so must its standards. Only you, the posters, can make it happen. I'm just the guy behind the curtain.
Funny, I almost swore in response to this. Guess I'm part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Anyway, Hicks, I just felt the need to quote my very favorite piece of scripture: 2 Samuel 12:7. "Thou art the man."

Kaufman
03-05-2006, 10:51 PM
"We need to make PD strong again. Right now, it's pretty damn average."

I think the board is probably average because the team is average. As we all care about the P's, its hard to see us suffering through the drought we have been going through. I try to stay positive in my posts and hope we all can keep it above the rim as has been suggested by others on the board.

SwissExpress
03-05-2006, 10:52 PM
And I want to quote "Bling Bling", Ali G: "Respek!". ;)

Suaveness
03-05-2006, 10:55 PM
Hicks, I have only one thing to say to you:


:flirt:

denyfizle
03-05-2006, 10:55 PM
Folks,

I too am starting to commonly skip over most posts because they may as well be scripted as soon as Jasikevicius pops up in the discussion. The bickering has become meaningless, and worse it's damaging the community and the forum itself. The only people who can change it, are all of us, together. We make and we break this place by how we choose to carry ourselves, and things must improve or this place will become "just another forum". I don't want this place to ever become that, and if you care about PD, neither do you.

Folks, we've come to a crossroads with the latest issues around here. We can either choose to continue down a path of mediocrity, or worse, or we can choose to take a higher road, and get back to civil discussion that amounts to a lot more than taking rehearsed shots at one another. We need to make PD strong again. Right now, it's pretty damn average. We are way, way beyond caring about who started what, who spurred on who, or what someone said to make someone else mad and respond with more anger. It's time to grow up, and move on.

I consider the thread about the Jewish discussion an exception to this, but it needs to be addressed as well. If anyone REALLY feels the need to discuss it, the News & Politics board is where it should start. And if ANYONE feels the need to get personal with one another, it needs to start and end someplace else than Pacers Digest; ANY part of it. Here, the N&P board, anywhere. PD is not here for that, and it never will be.

While I'm here, I also want to ask that there be less swearing and overall harshness. I know that's subjective, but do we really need to constantly see "****" 's peppering posts? Do we need to see "So and so sucks!!" Aren't we better than that, as a community? I'd like to think so. And if the answer in any of your minds is "no", then think about how you can help change that. This place can be so much better, and it's very attainable.

I know that a lot of you don't really respect me as the leader of this place, but if you don't care about what I think, at least care about the people that make this place worth coming to (and that means you), and try to improve yourself and this board for the good of it and everyone that comes here. As the population and popularity of this forum grows, so must its standards. Only you, the posters, can make it happen. I'm just the guy behind the curtain.

Thanks for reading,

- Hicks

It's not like there really are a lot of Runi haters. In the beginning perhaps, and I for one had to fend off a lot of them being the Runi fan that I am. It's more like there's so much die-hard Runi fans that have "godly" expectations that rival his actual accomplishments in Europe and post criticisms focused on the individual success of their hero as opposed to the overall betterment of the team. Maybe it would have been better if we just ignored posts like that after so much but hey, not everybody reads all the threads in this board. Discussions will be discussed over and over again by different people. Arguments, reargued. Banters, rebantered. (if there is such a word) The fact that posts on this board is at an all time high I think is a tribute to Hicks management and the overall success of PD. So with that said, I really can't say the quality of this board has decreased. There are days you just want to post stupid stuff and not be "smart" all the time anyway. Good job to all those responsible. :buddies:

Sirius
03-06-2006, 12:08 AM
I like Sarunas :sadbanana :shrug:

ChicagoJ
03-06-2006, 12:35 AM
Well, we don't have Ron to fight about. (Thank God.)

Everybody generally would be okay with trading SJax away as soon as possible.

Tinsley and JO are still great players when healthy, but injured all the time.

Bender still sucks, is injured all the time, and is gone.

AJ has learned how to get the ball above the timeline. Fred's not in a funk anymore. Jeff Foster is hitting FTs. David Harrison is blossoming.

Peja's a more-complete player than advertised. He really is reminding me of Chris Mullin with his unusual, but impact-ive (:D ) way to drive to the basket.

There's really nothing esle to talk about except the multi-sided debate over Saras.

:devil:

But there's clearly some cultural stuff going on with that one. We've got old-school, Indiana-bred basketball junkies that are divided over him. And we've got new-found friends that had unreasonable expectations for a rookie in the NBA. And, perhaps if Saras was playing for about 25 other teams in the league, his Euro-fans could come around and act like know-it-all's - blaming the coach and his teammates or other variables for the fact that he's playing like a rookie and talking too much for his own good - but that tactic has not been well-received by Indiana fans that think they know better. Thus, a series of conflicts.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

EDIT - (I got interrupted last night and didn't finish my thoughts.)

The language differences have not helped, but I think everyone needs to just 'chill out' a bit (myself included at times).

The differences really are good for the board. But how we've been handling them hasn't - again I'm including myself here.

Julius Sour
03-06-2006, 01:54 AM
Mates, I'm Euro. I know Saras, I wish him the best. i want him to succeed. If Saras is successful it will mean that Pacers are successful (no one can be happy in a loosing team). That's it. All I want is my fellow-countryman to win the NBA Championship... Doesn't it mean that PACERS will have to win that, too?

About how this forum is transforming

I think that beacause of Saras and Peja this forum has become one of the most international ones. Globalization, Baby:P

And about this discontent about Saras The Rook

If we, Euros, wish Saras the Best, We wish all the best for the Pacers.
We have confidence in Saras and we're just asking that from You -- our Friends from overseas.
I understand "The Rule", that You should win the apretiation from teammates, fans, media...Only thing is that Saras has won more Titles than all active players on the team rooster have.
It means that at the end of the day he left the court as the Winner. Our impertinence most of the times is evoken 'cause of the situations that I, we set up in some threads, that Euro's get hooked on proving that Saras is not "an Elephant":)

We all want THE RINGS and if this is what we have to go trough with each other... So, be it!

I WANT THE RINGS TO BE WON BY INDIANA PACERS.

Have a good week.

Js

Lithfan
03-06-2006, 02:33 AM
You know what, I'm kind of tired to post about Saras myself.
However, as Jay says what else is there?

DeS
03-06-2006, 07:47 AM
I'm not sure, that Saras discussions decreased quality of the board. Of course there are +/-, but on the positive note, I think that this board benefited from knowledgable euro fans. I really liked to read NPFII (NPFII, where are You!? :) ) posts, which resulted in interesting discussions. Now I am really thankful to Peck and Lithfan, who recently added another dimension to Saras discussions and I'm looking forward to read their posts.
And, Hicks, I think many of us (euros) absolutely respect You as a leader of a place and also Able (although sometimes it seems that we (euros) do not get much respect from him ;) but I can live with it - he really tries hard to maintain this wonderful site)

owl
03-06-2006, 08:20 AM
Actually the board is better since Ron has left the building. However when
fans are only rooting for their favorite player and not the team it tends to
lower the quality of the discussion. I enjoy all the international fans on this
board. It really adds some additional flavor. So to all the international fans
I say welcome.


owl

Julius Sour
03-06-2006, 08:58 AM
And, Hicks, I think many of us (euros) absolutely respect You as a leader of a place and also Able (although sometimes it seems that we (euros) do not get much respect from him ;) but I can live with it - he really tries hard to maintain this wonderful site)

You're right DeS. We are visitors it will take a while up to that day when we will be living in Good Old Europe and not somewhere overseas :)

No offence... we have this joke 'bout Americans...
"...poor Americans...if there were no discoverers from the Old Continent -Americans would still be living in EUROPE" :P No, Offence once again... I find it realy realy funny. And I bet - most of You don't. It's a joke - equal to the one You use ... "from overseas; overseas..."

2 People who run this board

THANK YOU. YOU HAVE MADE MY WORLD BIGGER and more COLOURFUL:)

Keep it real!

R-2 the-E-2 the-S-2 the-T-2 the-E-2 the-P-2 the-A
RESTEPA!!!

Js:buddies:

blow
03-06-2006, 09:29 AM
You're right DeS. We are visitors it will take a while up to that day when we will be living in Good Old Europe and not somewhere overseas :)

No offence... we have this joke 'bout Americans...
"...poor Americans...if there were no discoverers from the Old Continent -Americans would still be living in EUROPE" :P No, Offence once again... I find it realy realy funny. And I bet - most of You don't. It's a joke - equal to the one You use ... "from overseas; overseas..."

2 People who run this board

THANK YOU. YOU HAVE MADE MY WORLD BIGGER and more COLOURFUL:)

Keep it real!

R-2 the-E-2 the-S-2 the-T-2 the-E-2 the-P-2 the-A
RESTEPA!!!

Js:buddies:

Julius Sour, no offense, but how old are you actually? If i had to guess, I would give 16-17 for you. Maybe less.

About the thread - yeah, the quality of PD has decreased, definitely. And it's because of the blind believers in Saras' flawlessness. I have to say, if somebody plays bad, he deserves some criticism. If he plays good, he deserves some good words too. But now it seems whatever Runi does, it's like not his fault. My European fellows, you have to understand that no matter how good Saras was back in the Euroleague, etc., he has to adjust to the new style of basketball. Adjustement is all that matters. Yeah, he's a smart player, but NBA basketball is more physical than smart, so maybe, I dare say, NBA is not the best place for him. It's the same in the Euroleague - guys from NBA come and can't do a thing just because they are physical.

Anyway, I think (although I 'd registered to PD not so long ago, I've been reading it since summer) analysis is what we need. Arguments, too.

FrenchConnection
03-06-2006, 10:34 AM
I'm not sure, that Saras discussions decreased quality of the board. Of course there are +/-, but on the positive note, I think that this board benefited from knowledgable euro fans. I really liked to read NPFII (NPFII, where are You!? :) ) posts, which resulted in interesting discussions. Now I am really thankful to Peck and Lithfan, who recently added another dimension to Saras discussions and I'm looking forward to read their posts.
And, Hicks, I think many of us (euros) absolutely respect You as a leader of a place and also Able (although sometimes it seems that we (euros) do not get much respect from him ;) but I can live with it - he really tries hard to maintain this wonderful site)

I think that NPFII went away around the time of the Peja trade. He was making comments that Peja was useless and that we had better get someting else in the package to make it an even trade. Now that this has proven to not be true, he has not come around here in some time. Also, he posts on the RATS board all the time, so go over there and check him out.

Doncikaz
03-06-2006, 10:41 AM
And to a considerable extent. It's just difficult to read some of the recent threads.

Firstly, discussions about Saras have themselves become very superficial. And the vocabulary has changed and become boring; while it was interesting to see all the "STFU", "lovers", "haters", "no defense", "clutch", "shaky passes", "backup", "third string" etc vocabulary in the beginning, the vocabulary now actually dominates the discussion. That's the worst thing that can happen to any discussion.

Secondly, all the anger. I don't remember posters ****ing about other posters in this forum when I first came here. Now I often see rather insulting posts regarding Saras-haters or Saras-lovers, and rather often they are even out of context. In other words, posters started bashing each other just for the sake of bashing, not because of what someone says. Sometimes it reminds me of the many low-quality European basketball forums, dominated by teenagers.

Thirdly, those problems have spread to other areas as well. For instance, lets take the recent thread I started - the one where I posted an article regarding Jewish extremists' reaction to Saras' wedding. The thread was actually closed in the end, which was probably the best solution as discussion was very dissapointing. Once again it was full of unsupported anger - smth I don't remember in this forum several mothes ago, when Saras-related discussions took off to new levels. In that particular thread, some of the posters were bashing one or another participant of the story - without clear arguments; some were bashing the discussion itself - quite justly, though again without arguments; and some were bashing me for starting the thread - with arguments so strange that they are hardly arguments (because I have conections with Switzerland, because the posted article is related to an extremist from Israel, because there are many Jews-haters in Lithuania, and because the Jewish extremist is of the right wing; well, considering that Switzerland has mostly been saving Jews during the 2nd WW, that Pacers Digest is hardly related to the number of Jews-haters in Lithuania, and that there are hardly any other extremists in Israel but right-wing extremists, I could hardly understand all that anger and willingness to "STFU", even though I have some Jewish among my relatives myself...). And that thread is just one example.

All said, some measures must be taken. That's the point for this discussion. Maybe add a sticky thread for the Saras-related comments? Currently, for instance, while I like reading Peck's post-game comments, I'm starting to skip any discussion below them as I'm always 99% sure that it will be full of Saras-related or other angry clashes. I remember times when discussions initiated by Peck's recaps were as interesting as those recaps themselves...



The thing is - some see Saras as a God of PG and are fed up he can`t play in the possition and some don`t like it when a rookie wants to "take-over".

Frankly - I love to read the stuff being written here, but i stopped posting as soon as it became "if he would play.... " stuff.

I was hoping to continue posting with a "I told you so... " when he became playing where he should be, but thats not likely to be happening any time soon.

I see no use in arguing here as the coach makes desitions as they are there for him to make. Don`t like it? Do something about it, no use in whining.

In my personal opinion Saras is a lot better than A.J. but that`s my opionion and i kept it to myself since he didn`t have a chance to proove it to you all and my words mean nothing unless they have solid proof on them.

We could talk a lot about how he played against US or in Europe, but the thing is - that`s not NBA. No1 will build up a scheme to hide some rookies flaws, no matter who the rookie is.

I actually have to agree, that if he`s not used as he was ment to be used ( sure as hell not the 3rd string PG ) he should be traded as his talent is getting wasted here.

I was really excited when I found out that he`s gonna play for Pacers and now i`m really dissapointed with all the ****** going on here.

It`s "all about the benjamins" here.


Oh... And about him talking too much to the media.... Wasn`t America known for freedom of speach? I rest my case.

Take care all.

I`ll only post again when i`ll have something to say and not argue.

Have a nice day.

Don

NaptownBound
03-06-2006, 11:08 AM
can't we all just... well, you know the rest.

owl
03-06-2006, 11:15 AM
Don said...."It`s "all about the benjamins" here."


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++


I appreciate your sentiments but I believe the above statement is
not relevent to Saras playing time. All things considered I believe he
is playing very well. Part of his problem is the make up of the Pacers.
The Pacers have very few, if any speedy players to offset Saras lack of
footspeed. However, with that said if Mark Jackson could make it in the
NBA at a HIGH level so can Saras. I believe Saras needs to improve his
dribbling skills and maybe his decision making on picking up the dribble to
often. I believe next year we will see more Saras. I would be very surprised
to see all three pg's here next year. With three I mean Tinsley, AJ and
Saras.


owl

Dr. Goldfoot
03-06-2006, 02:05 PM
This is exactly why I started to post and quit posting for awhile. I have nothing nice to say about Runi. I got sick of argueing about him.

Kegboy
03-06-2006, 02:07 PM
I think this is blown way out of proportion. The Cabbage-fighting is nothing, NOTHING, compared to throwdowns we've had about Bender and Ron in the past. Seriously, (and I'm not finding fault, it's just the way it is), but a part of the problem is we have a large contingent of new posters that are here because of Cabbage and only because of Cabbage. If Cabbage had been traded at the deadline, 99% of them would have left.

Lately it's become apparent that some people resent that. I don't see why. We've got a contingent of Pistons fans on here that are more or less accepted. As such, the "haters" need to accept that Cabbage's fans have priorities that are different and leave it at that. And, the "lovers" need to accept that when Cabbage signed an NBA contract, he opened himself up to the scorn and ridicule that every professional athlete must deal with as a part of the sports climate in America, and not take such criticism personally. It wouldn't matter if Cabbage were the best basketball player on the planet. To quote Michael Wilbon, "Indiana and Detroit were the two places where they boo'd Michael Jordan and meant it."

As for the state of the board in general, Cabbage doesn't have anything to do with it. It started around the start of the season, and I think there's a simple explanation. Last season was devastating, and the vast majority of fans dealt with it by telling themselves it was a short term problem, and everything would be all better once a new season started and we had everybody back. A lot of repressed anger from last year has bubbled to the surface since that was shown to not be the case. Sure, Ron's idiocy gave an outlet to such frustrations, but I defy you to find a Pacers fan that doesn't have a chip on their shoulder over what we've been through. That inherent hostility is bound to play itself out on a daily basis on the board for the foreseeable future.

Jon Theodore
03-06-2006, 02:26 PM
Everyone needs to relax. I pride myself and not getting into the Saras hate/debate even though I think in a year or two like AJ he will improve a lot and we will all like him.

Regardless, he's a rookie and people put way too much pressure on him. But if everyone relaxed and didn't get so upset over the Saras haters/lovers....the discontent between the two groups wouldn't exist.

Mourning
03-06-2006, 02:47 PM
I think this is blown way out of proportion. The Cabbage-fighting is nothing, NOTHING, compared to throwdowns we've had about Bender and Ron in the past. Seriously, (and I'm not finding fault, it's just the way it is), but a part of the problem is we have a large contingent of new posters that are here because of Cabbage and only because of Cabbage. If Cabbage had been traded at the deadline, 99% of them would have left.

Lately it's become apparent that some people resent that. I don't see why. We've got a contingent of Pistons fans on here that are more or less accepted. As such, the "haters" need to accept that Cabbage's fans have priorities that are different and leave it at that. And, the "lovers" need to accept that when Cabbage signed an NBA contract, he opened himself up to the scorn and ridicule that every professional athlete must deal with as a part of the sports climate in America, and not take such criticism personally. It wouldn't matter if Cabbage were the best basketball player on the planet. To quote Michael Wilbon, "Indiana and Detroit were the two places where they boo'd Michael Jordan and meant it."

As for the state of the board in general, Cabbage doesn't have anything to do with it. It started around the start of the season, and I think there's a simple explanation. Last season was devastating, and the vast majority of fans dealt with it by telling themselves it was a short term problem, and everything would be all better once a new season started and we had everybody back. A lot of repressed anger from last year has bubbled to the surface since that was shown to not be the case. Sure, Ron's idiocy gave an outlet to such frustrations, but I defy you to find a Pacers fan that doesn't have a chip on their shoulder over what we've been through. That inherent hostility is bound to play itself out on a daily basis on the board for the foreseeable future.

I award this for the "Post of the year"-award, category "Pacerfan psyche" ;).

I think Keyboys post is dead on though.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Moses
03-06-2006, 02:51 PM
So the first step we need to take is permanently banning Indytoad. :laugh:

waxman
03-06-2006, 03:23 PM
Nice KB .... i think that sums up alot of it .... last season divided alot of fans on PD. And when things started heading south again this year... the blame game went into overdrive.

Pretty much EVERYONE on the roster or in the organization has been a target of that ire this year. From Walsh all the way down to Eddie Gill.

Unfortunately for the numerous newer members...Sarunas has been a target lately...maybe because of unreasonable expectations coupled with the vast, vocal and staunch support of his fans or whatever. But apparently it has caused some resentment towards him here.

Justified or not?... that lends itself to his supporters embelishing what he does well, and his detractors put every fault under the microscope. Its just a vicious cycle at this point.

He clearly.. is a good player who knows how to play "the right way"... but just as clearly has struggled with the physical nature of the game. Alot of those struggles are impossible to see in a box score or by reading the play by play. But he's smart and skilled enough...that he'll continue getting better and adjust.

Another thing to note... for the newer members...the nature of a hoosier(Pacer) fan....even 2 years ago when we had the best record in the league...you couldn't tell from this board. Hoosier(Pacer) fans will find something to nitpick even when things are going well. It must be the same thing that causes Conseco to rise and cheer for a loose ball scrum or a hard fought rebound rather than a thunderous dunk or ankle breaker on the perimeter.

3ballinhoop
03-06-2006, 03:36 PM
Very nice post Kegboy! Here i was thinking that you only write provocative oneliners but now you prove me wrong. Edit: Waxman is clearly on my page too here.

What i feel about the Saras discussion here, is that he is measured differently than many other Pacers players. Often i see a game where he plays an ok match, yet gets extremely negative criticism on this board afterwards. I guess this comes from all the positive things that have been written about him, which makes some expect more and judge him harder than the average player. I think that also makes it easier and more temptating for some to write how BAD he was just to answer the hype, that is perceived as exaggerated.

By the way: I live in Germany, but have seen loads of Pacers games live this season; it's not correct to perpetually repeat that the European fans only get their impressions from boxscores.

3ball

SwissExpress
03-06-2006, 03:37 PM
No offence... we have this joke 'bout Americans...
"...poor Americans...if there were no discoverers from the Old Continent -Americans would still be living in EUROPE" :P No, Offence once again... I find it realy realy funny. And I bet - most of You don't. It's a joke - equal to the one You use ... "from overseas; overseas..."


I've never heard it before, but that joke seems to be making fun of Europeans, not of Americans... ;)

SwissExpress
03-06-2006, 03:52 PM
I award this for the "Post of the year"-award, category "Pacerfan psyche" ;).

I think Keyboys post is dead on though.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Yes, definitelly. It was a great pleasure to read that post.

Lithfan
03-06-2006, 05:26 PM
Very nice post Kegboy! Here i was thinking that you only write provocative oneliners but now you prove me wrong. Edit: Waxman is clearly on my page too here.

What i feel about the Saras discussion here, is that he is measured differently than many other Pacers players. Often i see a game where he plays an ok match, yet gets extremely negative criticism on this board afterwards. I guess this comes from all the positive things that have been written about him, which makes some expect more and judge him harder than the average player. I think that also makes it easier and more temptating for some to write how BAD he was just to answer the hype, that is perceived as exaggerated.

By the way: I live in Germany, but have seen loads of Pacers games live this season; it's not correct to perpetually repeat that the European fans only get their impressions from boxscores.

3ball

I wouldn't give a Kegboy (:darkness:) a post of the year even though he deserves it. Because he is darkness :laugh:.

3ball - Where do you see the freaking games?!?!? I would easily emigrate to Germany, just because of that. Well not to Germany, but to every other country. No, not to any other country. I'm confused.
****, may be I'll just fly occasionally to see a few games.:laugh:

Edit: I've just found who called Kegboy Satan first.
it was Shade:


Would that make Kegboy Satan? :darkness:

Kegboy
03-06-2006, 05:40 PM
FYI, comparing me to Derrick McKey is the best compliment you can give me. Especially now that he's got the new 'do to cover up his funky head.

btowncolt
03-06-2006, 05:41 PM
FYI, comparing me to Derrick McKey is the best compliment you can give me. Especially now that he's got the new 'do to cover up his funky head.

And if you could afford that rock he always has in his ear, I'd probably be trying to become Kegboycolt.

Lithfan
03-06-2006, 05:50 PM
FYI, comparing me to Derrick McKey is the best compliment you can give me. Especially now that he's got the new 'do to cover up his funky head.

You take it in the good way, as was intended.

3ballinhoop
03-06-2006, 05:51 PM
Hi Lithfan!

You don't have to emigrate to Germany, even if it can be a really cool country at the right places, which you seem to underestimate.
Here is what you do: You watch the games via internet streaming! Just register at www.streamtvnow.com, which will cost you an amount of 3(4$) per month, and you have free access to all the streams. They have at least three different NBA games on every night.
The downside of the whole thing is that you might just watch one or two too many of those stupid basketball games, which I, considering the huge time difference between Europe and the US, just can not recommend. If i am not mistaken, your location is Tel Aviv, so you'll have to fight sleep for one hour longer than I do. Enjoy! ;)

Lithfan
03-06-2006, 05:57 PM
Hi Lithfan!

You don't have to emigrate to Germany, even if it can be a really cool country at the right places, which you seem to underestimate.
Here is what you do: You watch the games via internet streaming! Just register at www.streamtvnow.com (http://www.streamtvnow.com), which will cost you an amount of 3€(4$) per month, and you have free access to all the streams. They have at least three different NBA games on every night.
The downside of the whole thing is that you might just watch one or two too many of those stupid basketball games, which I, considering the huge time difference between Europe and the US, just can not recommend. If i am not mistaken, your location is Tel Aviv, so you'll have to fight sleep for one hour longer than I do. Enjoy! ;)

Wow, thank you 3ball!!!

I was looking for such thing for a long time!!!

Now we'll smash Hoosiers with our knowledge!!! :laugh: (No negative reactions on this one please, its just a joke)

Edit: I actually like Germany's present, especially the Bavarian beer and food.
And free autobanes, Mercedes, Audi S8 etc ;)

Raskolnikov
03-06-2006, 06:08 PM
Hi Lithfan!

You don't have to emigrate to Germany, even if it can be a really cool country at the right places, which you seem to underestimate.
Here is what you do: You watch the games via internet streaming! Just register at www.streamtvnow.com (http://www.streamtvnow.com), which will cost you an amount of 3(4$) per month, and you have free access to all the streams. They have at least three different NBA games on every night.
The downside of the whole thing is that you might just watch one or two too many of those stupid basketball games, which I, considering the huge time difference between Europe and the US, just can not recommend. If i am not mistaken, your location is Tel Aviv, so you'll have to fight sleep for one hour longer than I do. Enjoy! ;)
That's good to know 3ball. Not that I actually will register to see the games, cause I just can't stay up at night, I need my sleep more than anything. But it's nice to know...

:soapbox: Stupid time difference! Stupid rotating earth! Stupid sun! I mean, I :love: you sun, keeping us alive and all, shining the way you shine, you're my homeboy, sun. If you mess with the sun, you mess with me, man. :leaving:

SoupIsGood
03-07-2006, 06:22 PM
I sorta like Saras. Don't like the bickering, generally don't read it.


I like what Hicks said.

You all need to cheer up, and become David Harrison fans. :sunshine:

Diamond Dave
03-07-2006, 06:25 PM
I sorta like Saras. Don't like the bickering, generally don't read it.


I like what Hicks said.

You all need to cheer up, and become David Harrison fans. :sunshine:

:brilliant:

Let's turn the keys over to Harrison, Carlisle's holdin em down!!!

:buddies:

ChicagoJ
03-07-2006, 06:33 PM
Let's turn the keys over to Harrison, Carlisle's holdin em down!!!

:buddies:

Now THAT I can agree with.

:woot2:

Mordecaii
03-07-2006, 09:08 PM
I have to agree with Swiss, it seems like every thread has some sort of argument about Saras being great or terrible and how Carlisle is "holding him back" or whatever and how he should be a starter... frankly it's gotten really old. On top of this, a semi-recent influx of posters who always complain and insult people has really ruined a lot of threads. I always looked forward to reading the game threads here when I can't see the game on TV, but for the time being I've gotten sick of it and I'm taking a break from PD.

SoupIsGood
03-07-2006, 09:10 PM
:brilliant:

Let's turn the keys over to Harrison, Carlisle's holdin em down!!!

:buddies:


Now THAT I can agree with.

:woot2:

:happydanc

SoupIsGood
03-07-2006, 09:15 PM
I have to agree with Swiss, it seems like every thread has some sort of argument about Saras being great or terrible and how Carlisle is "holding him back" or whatever and how he should be a starter... frankly it's gotten really old. On top of this, a semi-recent influx of posters who always complain and insult people has really ruined a lot of threads. I always looked forward to reading the game threads here when I can't see the game on TV, but for the time being I've gotten sick of it and I'm taking a break from PD.

The game threads were pretty cool back in the day

brichard
03-07-2006, 11:30 PM
I agree with whomever stated that this is more par for the course, rather than the exception. There are always going to be certain topics that generate discussion. Sometimes things strike a nerve, and there are just some players/topics that people are passionate about. And if somebody loves a player, there will always be someone who despises that player. But hey, wouldn't it be boring if people agreed on everything?

AD or DD? Bender? Did the 2000 team get blown up or self-implode? And on and on it goes. Do all of those topics get boring to me? Of course they do, but people alwaystalk about them. Saras and Harrisson seem to be the topics Du Jour. Lots of people love them, lots of people don't think much of them and ...POOF... you have a debate and a long thread. This is exactly what makes a message board fun.

It would be fun if the board could be more dynamic, but with yet another consecutive mediocre season, there just doesn't seem to be alot to say. We had the brawl last year and Artest trade banter to keep us busy for awhile. The Anit-Carlisle sentiment is also a fairly new development.

I for one appreciate the input of our friends overseas. I think one of the coolest things about the Net is to be able to talk to somebody from Belgium from my study. Even if I don't agree with somebody, it is nice to see what other folks think from around the world.

I do agree that some of the *** should stop, but that is just an opinion. I think much of it has to do with age. When you are young, you think saying ******* makes you look cool. As you get older you realize it makes a person look more immature and backwards. If you don't have anything intelligent to say, just fill your post with *****.

Quite frankly Ive just been bored with basketball and I'm finding myself much more active in the Shout Box, Entertainment, and Political forums. As we get ready for the playoffs I'm sure lots of us will fire up again.

Kestas
03-08-2006, 06:35 PM
The game threads were pretty cool back in the day

may I suggest some of the fans stop complaining about refs in every third post of the game threads? it's considered a very bad taste in Europe (though we do have stupid or biased refs as well). imho this constant complaining about the refs is somewhat immature and not very interesting to read ;)
sorry if that was OT..

regarding the topic. I have no idea how the forums were before. I also noticed that some of those complaining in ths thread are pretty new members themselves. I did sense that some things we (Europeans) said on this board did shake it. but I would be surprised if that did not happen considering general lack of any knowledge about basketball outside of the US. not only some (or most) of you (our American friends) lack knowledge, but you also have plenty of vague stereotypes and myths in your heads that you consider "knowledge". this was what we had a shot at fixing. sure, it was a stupid idea, but you can't stay calm when you see people saying something that you know is not true. however, these topics have their limit of satturation. it's clear this limit has been reached. now we can talk Pacers. they must win, win, win. the more they win, the better for everybody, including Saras and his fans. it's clear Saras has a role in the team, he is not being totally ignored by the coaches, so now, basically, we need good results not only from him, but primarily from this team. Saras achievements will be judged by what this team achieves (at leat in Lithuania). if Indiana get the rings sometime in the near future with Saras, I would be very happy even if Saras would be playing off the bench.
however, if Saras stays in the Pacers, we will renew our (more provocative) discussions (so to speak) during the World Championships ;)