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View Full Version : What does this coach want? (regarding Jasikevicius)



3ballinhoop
03-03-2006, 11:54 PM
Two days ago, a Pacers team hurt by injuries visited Washington and walked away with a great victory. The only pointguard on the team, Jasikevicius, was awarded with the game MVP award for his outstanding play including some awsome passes and an extremely good statline. He stepped it up and showed how good he is when getting the chance to play, to start. Of course he didn't start because this coach wanted to give him a chance; Carlisle does not give Jasikevicius any chances, but tries to keep him down and small. He started because the two other guards where both not available. However, in such a bad environment for a player, he played extremely well. The whole season Jasikevicius has been put down by the coach, Carlisle. Every mistake by Jasikevicius results in a timeout and often a substitution. Other players on the team make mistakes that are lots worse or a lot more frequent without this reaction by the coach. When Johnson played terribly, he still always got the coach's trust and was sooner or later able to show confidence and play solid again.
Jasikevicius is not given any credit by this coach, no trust, and no chance to grow.

Today this peaked. After the great game two days ago, the reward are 12 minutes behind a Johnson who shoots 2/9, terrible. What is the coach trying to do, what is he communicating to Sarunas and to the rest of the team? Of course he can not be the teamleader that he really is when the coach denies him every possibility to take over, and does this after he used his chance in such a good way. A trade feels more and more probable. It's a trade I am hoping for. This is not what this player deserves. A player who has owned american national team with Kidd, Iverson at Olympic games, at World championships. A player that won 3 straight Euroleague titles, and was heavily hunted by several NBA teams at the age of 28 after playing his career in Europe.
This coach does not seek Sarunas qualities as a teamleader, as a winner that he has proven. He puts him down, tries to make him a small player that shoots 2 threepointers per game. Jasikevicius is not a shooter, but a playmaker. His shot is just something he does pretty good.
Lots of teams are going to like a Jasikevicius trade. I really doubt the Pacers management would do that, but it is clear Jasikevicius gets treaten in an extremely bad way and denied the possibility to play the game his way. It is enough now, no more disrespect, no more scandalous coaching. Free Jasikevicius.

D-BONE
03-04-2006, 12:00 AM
I didn't think either of our PGs looked particularly effective tonight. AJ did manage 7 assists, but was not a good game for him. As has been mentioned, the Celtics, and West in particular, excel in ball pressure on the G spots. While I don't think he should be thrust back into the starting line up on his return unless AJ's play levels off on a consistent basis, it find myself wondering if Tinsley wouldn't have been more successful against the type of pressure exerted tonight. I thought Saras noticeably labored getting the ball up the court and, in fact, got stuck with an 8 second violation. He did have his usual group of deft set-up passes, but not as often as the Washington game.

3ballinhoop
03-04-2006, 12:06 AM
Jasikevicius does not necessarily, except for his great passing ability, have the extreme skills to make his team great. He has his heart and his leadership. These features don't interest Carlisle apparently, as he does everything to outplay them.
The big heart should have been lost a long time ago, but when getting 12 minutes after such a good game, I would expect it to not take a long time before it has become considerably smaller. Indiana will never see a teamleading Jasikevicius because Carlisle tries to destroy him.

Unclebuck
03-04-2006, 12:07 AM
I thought Saras was horrible tonight. I don't have a problem when Saras gets beat by a quicker player. But when he does not follow the defensive game plan, when he is 20 feet from West. When he does not guard the pick and roll as the coaches want, like when he went under the screen and gave West a wide open three pointer in the 4th quarter. When those type of things happen, you have to take him out. It is that simple.


The coaches want Saras to follow the game plan and defend as he is instructed. Too many times this season, he does not follow the gameplan on the defensive end. Coaches hate that and his teammates hate that, because it makes them look bad, plus his teammates will start being a little selfish on the defensive end, "if Saras is not following the gameplan, why should I" That type of thing

Kegboy
03-04-2006, 12:13 AM
was awarded with the game MVP award.

Huh? Cabbage played a very good game, but if there were such a thing, I'd think it would go to Hulk, unless you're one of those who thinks he's nothing more than a puppet with Cabbage's hand controlling everything. :shudder:

3ballinhoop
03-04-2006, 12:16 AM
I watched the game on Comcast network and there was an mvp award, possibly by the channel itself, given to Jasikevicius.

McKeyFan
03-04-2006, 12:19 AM
AJ = safe, good player, who won't ever lead us to greatness.

Runi = risky, still developing player who has the potential to lead us to greatness.


Rick's safe, risk-averse profile goes with AJ. Too bad, IMO.

Outlaw
03-04-2006, 12:20 AM
I think there is TOO MUCH Sarunas worship going on with some posters on this board. He is a good player but NOT a great player.

Calgary Jazz
03-04-2006, 12:23 AM
Well, if he is not great player lets trade him to Utah for Palacio or Mcleod. Fair enough??? heck we can throw in Collins or some 2 round pick for it :)

Kegboy
03-04-2006, 12:26 AM
I think there is TOO MUCH Sarunas worship going on with some posters on this board. He is a good player but NOT a great player.

Really?! Nawww, you're just making that up.








Seriously, there's a reason why some of us started calling him The Second Coming in August. But then he was christened Cabbage, and all was right with the world.

Outlaw
03-04-2006, 12:27 AM
Well, if he is not great player lets trade him to Utah for Palacio or Mcleod. Fair enough??? heck we can throw in Collins or some 2 round pick for it :)

Sloan would have him come off the bench too.He gets abused defensively sometimes and has trouble with when pressed.:)

Kegboy
03-04-2006, 12:28 AM
Well, if he is not great player lets trade him to Utah for Palacio or Mcleod. Fair enough??? heck we can throw in Collins or some 2 round pick for it :)

Sadly, the deadline has passed. I was already to trade him for LBJ, but then it was pointed out to me that next year's salaries don't match. :kickcan:

Outlaw
03-04-2006, 12:28 AM
Really?! Nawww, you're just making that up.








Seriously, there's a reason why some of us started calling him The Second Coming in August. But then he was christened Cabbage, and all was right with the world.

Actually I have noticed it for sometime but it is finally starting to get annoying.:)

McKeyFan
03-04-2006, 12:53 AM
I tend to agree with the comments that Saras is held down. He's not allowed nearly the mistakes that AJ is allowed.

I don't think Saras is the second coming, but I do think he could provide the spark we need to get to the next level. I don't think AJ or Tins can.

3ballinhoop
03-04-2006, 01:08 AM
Please talk about Jasikevicius situation in this team, which is terrible and not appropriate, instead of writing totally useless oneliners about a trade with Lebron. Your attempt to kill a serious discussion on Saras isn't funny at all.

Yeah, maybe Sarunas would play behind Deron Williams in Utah, but he would be an important player with the coach's confidence and positive input encouraging him. These Pacers do not deserve Jasikevicius, they should trade him!
Let's face it. When Saras once got a real chance, he played really, really well. But Carlisle doesn't like Jasikevicius, most certainly not over Johnson, who is his favourite guy, a guy that he has given so many chances ( i agree that he has been playing well as a starter, WITH all Carlisles backup and confidence, after he sucked tons of games). So when Carlisle is forced to once give Saras a chance to show what he can do, and Saras succeeds, he has a problem. Soon Tinsley will come back, and then he has to somehow explain to the owners, to the Indiana fans, to Larry Bird, that he wants to use that Lithuanian guy (who isn't a newbie european rookie like many of his "haters" here would like to believe, but a big sportsstar married to a Miss World who has had huge success, and deserves some respect) as a 3rd string point guard and maybe some minutes at backup shooting guard.
But how does that work with a guy that plays like Saras did when he once started (better than ANY game Johnson has played this season, despite all the starts he has had)? Well, you have to get him down again; simply don't let him play the next game, let him warm the bench, even if the guy who missed the last match isn't exactly playing great.

I'm really curious how this will turn out. Either Jasikevicius will be traded in the summer, the Pacers will have a different coach, or as 3rd option and most unlikely, Carlisle will start to like Jasikevicius.

In case a trade is discussed later, I can guarantee you that there are many GMs in this league who see what Jasikevicius could bring to their team and would love to trade for him.

Arcadian
03-04-2006, 01:35 AM
These Pacers do not deserve Jasikevicius, they should trade him!

These are the comments which I as a Pacer fan have to shake my head at. Perhaps we should have a Jasikevicius Digest subforum where Saras fans can talk about the basketball hell that Saras has fallen into.

As far as I have seen Saras is a good back up PG. There's no shame in that.

Eindar
03-04-2006, 02:04 AM
Please talk about Jasikevicius situation in this team, which is terrible and not appropriate, instead of writing totally useless oneliners about a trade with Lebron. Your attempt to kill a serious discussion on Saras isn't funny at all.

Yeah, maybe Sarunas would play behind Deron Williams in Utah, but he would be an important player with the coach's confidence and positive input encouraging him. These Pacers do not deserve Jasikevicius, they should trade him!
Let's face it. When Saras once got a real chance, he played really, really well. But Carlisle doesn't like Jasikevicius, most certainly not over Johnson, who is his favourite guy, a guy that he has given so many chances ( i agree that he has been playing well as a starter, WITH all Carlisles backup and confidence, after he sucked tons of games). So when Carlisle is forced to once give Saras a chance to show what he can do, and Saras succeeds, he has a problem. Soon Tinsley will come back, and then he has to somehow explain to the owners, to the Indiana fans, to Larry Bird, that he wants to use that Lithuanian guy (who isn't a newbie european rookie like many of his "haters" here would like to believe, but a big sportsstar married to a Miss World who has had huge success, and deserves some respect) as a 3rd string point guard and maybe some minutes at backup shooting guard.
But how does that work with a guy that plays like Saras did when he once started (better than ANY game Johnson has played this season, despite all the starts he has had)? Well, you have to get him down again; simply don't let him play the next game, let him warm the bench, even if the guy who missed the last match isn't exactly playing great.

I'm really curious how this will turn out. Either Jasikevicius will be traded in the summer, the Pacers will have a different coach, or as 3rd option and most unlikely, Carlisle will start to like Jasikevicius.

In case a trade is discussed later, I can guarantee you that there are many GMs in this league who see what Jasikevicius could bring to their team and would love to trade for him.

I will literally mail you ten dollars if you aren't a fan of Euroleague. The only people who think Sarunas is an upper-tier PG in the NBA are his European fans. In this league, he's a solid backup PG, and also a rookie. He's prone to bad passes (worse than Tinsley, and that's saying something), he's a below average ballhandler, and he often gets beat on defense. He's probably the best shooter of our PGs, but he's also the most streaky.

In a season or two, he might be a starting-quality PG, once he becomes more adjusted to the speed of the NBA, but right now, he's an above average PG on a team full of above average or better PGs. Overall, for the long haul, is he a better PG than Anthony Johnson? Maybe. But given that AJ has had some flat out excellent games, and Sarunas is in the middle of another shooting slump, why should he get more PT?

You're as bad as most Pacers fans for taking one game and making a season out of it. And you don't even have the benefit of Sarunas having an amazing game in 12 minutes. In fact, on a per minute basis tonight, Sarunas would have scored the same number of points on the same percentage, roughly. In exchange, he would have had half as many assists and twice as many turnovers. How is he the easy choice to start again?

Anthem
03-04-2006, 02:40 AM
I'm really curious how this will turn out. Either Jasikevicius will be traded in the summer, the Pacers will have a different coach, or as 3rd option and most unlikely, Carlisle will start to like Jasikevicius.
More likely: We'll trade both AJ and Tinsley for a solid starter that can stay healthy, and Saras will be the backup.

grace
03-04-2006, 02:40 AM
Yeah, maybe Sarunas would play behind Deron Williams in Utah, but he would be an important player with the coach's confidence and positive input encouraging him. These Pacers do not deserve Jasikevicius, they should trade him!


Unless you're Jerry Sloan how could you possibly know that?

grace
03-04-2006, 02:44 AM
More likely: We'll trade both AJ and Tinsley for a solid starter that can stay healthy, and Saras will be the backup.

And how do you know anyone will stay healthy? It used to be all Marcus Camby had to do was step onto the court at Conseco and get injured.

Kestas
03-04-2006, 03:05 AM
It is enough now, no more disrespect, no more scandalous coaching. Free Jasikevicius.

and which team is supposed to treat him better? all I can come up with is Maccabi, Barcelona or Panathinaikos ;)
I mean, this is NBA, he's a rookie. NBA and NCAA is known for rookie shananigans. that is sick, but widely accepted as a norm.. he would not be starting anywhere yet imho. unless he would land in some loosers team, which is not an option. on the other hand, even that would not be assured, as Macas example clearly shows. the guy plays with the loosers, yet still is having a payed holliday (with Hornets training sessions it's a joke of a life) instead of hard work for his team. so any Saras fan should be glad for what he's having right now. if he will feel the need to move on because one thing or the other, he will voice his oppinion, no doubt about that. however, I'm 99% sure Pacers would not trade him to anyone for anything (at least this summer) unless he would act like Artest or even harder, which is not very feasable imho.

18to88
03-04-2006, 03:10 AM
I think there is TOO MUCH Sarunas worship going on with some posters on this board. He is a good player but NOT a great player.

AGREED

Lithfan
03-04-2006, 04:56 AM
I watched the game on Comcast network and there was an mvp award, possibly by the channel itself, given to Jasikevicius.

HEY!!!

What is Comcast network?

Is it on the internet? By the way if someone has NBA league pass.... a trusted ally will be happy to get some shares :cheers:

Now to the serious issues:

Clearly I have to react here.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
3ballinhoop - I felt exactly the same in many cases.<o:p></o:p>
However there is truth in UB, Eindar and Kestas words too.<o:p></o:p>
The thing is that highly respected Hoosiers on the most part really can't treat Saras the same as we. They didn't see his glamour. May be only in the previous game. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
What do the Hoosiers see (Do I need a the here?)?<o:p></o:p>
Some rookie that doesn't defend, cant bring the ball upcort with many annoying european fans coming after him, considering him second coming while he is only yes-a-cabbage-juice. (essence of the posts above)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
But believe us, we saw his magic. And not because his excellent dribbling or D. He sucked at both already in Europe, as I told you before. Hell, he didn't dribble at all in Maccabi and all team deffense scheme was built especially to cover his ***. In those surroundings he was great! <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
You know what, now, when I'm thinking about it, may be it was his previous coach genius. May be its too hard for <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Carlisle</st1:place> to design a role player scheme. But the thing is - <st1:City><st1:place>Detroit</st1:place></st1:City>, assembled from the role players is going for the next title. And that’s because each player is doing what he is best at. Saras is a kind of a role-player that was not seen in the NBA yet. [IMO, you tend to call role players only three type of players - shooters (Reggie), defensive experts (Ben Wallace) and rebounding experts (Rodman).]<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Sarunas brings 3 other expertise, by the descending importance:<o:p></o:p>
1. Passing and game vision on the highest imaginable level.<o:p></o:p>
2. Leadeship and passion. <o:p></o:p>
3. Solid shooting.<o:p></o:p>
And of course two major flaws:<o:p></o:p>
1. Poor dribling.<o:p></o:p>
2. Poor D.<o:p></o:p>
And that’s it. If Bird has done scouting he should have known this, every bball fan in <st1:place>europe</st1:place> in particularly in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> is aware of upper 5 points. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I believe that LB is smart and i want to believe that coach listens to him. If so, there are only two options:<o:p></o:p>
1. Its hard to design such a scheme for Saras in the NBA.<o:p></o:p>
2. Nobody wants to design anything for a rookie.<o:p></o:p>
And somehow I feel the second option is more viable.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
So to conclude this:<o:p></o:p>
Saras is a role player, a great one though. The greatness comes with weaknesses that should be hided by the coach. For some reason they are not and this limits his playing time and impact.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I also would like to ask all the respected Hoosiers not to tell us again and again that Saras sucked at D, have trouble bring a ball upcourt etc... I would be astonished if he wouldn’t.

Chauncey
03-04-2006, 08:03 AM
Just a hunch, but I'd say Rick's problem with him isn't that complicated. In fact, I think it comes down to a relatively simple basketball ideal.

He's not good enough to start.

Neither is AJ, but at least AJ doesn't HURT the team half of the time, like Sarass does.

Kestas
03-04-2006, 08:17 AM
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I believe that LB is smart and i want to believe that coach listens to him. If so, there are only two options:<o:p></o:p>
1. Its hard to design such a scheme for Saras in the NBA.<o:p></o:p>
2. Nobody wants to design anything for a rookie.<o:p></o:p>
And somehow I feel the second option is more viable.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>


you forgot the importance of the general style of play. however you look at this, Saras wants more ball movement by the team imho. he wants the ball to come back to his hands often on offense. the team has to play team ball in order for Saras to help them as he really can. this is not something you could "design" overnight. some players do not understand (and hardly ever will) the game that Saras considers the right one. otherwise he's just a lousy shooter or god knows who (see the all-star rookie-sophs game). it's obvious that teamplay is the way to go for NBA, so hopefully in the future Pacers will be using even more ball movement. right now they are just learning to use such things (as well as some zone deffense). some teams are not using teamplay at all. however strange it sounds, NBA still has things to learn as recent international competitions clearly showed (and I'm sure next autumn NBA Europe Live! will show as well).

however, yeah, rookie status does not help Saras one bit. not only he's a rookie, but also European. obviously, upcoming seasons should be different, but we'll see.. I'm happy with his performance, but I would be more happy if Pacers would be wining more with or without his help.

hoopsforlife
03-04-2006, 08:30 AM
I am not a European fan and so I have not watched any of those games. I am a fan of the Pacers and of Sarunas. I like Danny, David, Scot, Jeff, Cro et al. Shoot, I even like Jax every once in a while. I loved Tinsley when he played last year. AJ has garnered my respect after so many chances to succeed were given him. JO and the rest of the guys.. I like them all and root for them to win in every game.
But, in my opinion, the treatment Carlisle has given Sarunas so far this season has been almost criminal. I don't see why he doesn't trust him to lead this team. If AJ had been treated like Saras has the first 10 games when he was first starting, he would still be buried behind Eddie Gill in the lineup.

I personally feel Sarunas has not been given an proper chance to fully show what he can do like AJ has. I believe he has a special gift of play that Carlisle has not tapped into yet. I hope Rick doesn't ruin Runi before he gets a chance to show his full talent. :(

D-BONE
03-04-2006, 08:32 AM
LITHFAN,

Great analysis! I only brought up Saras's ball handling struggles in the context of last night's game v. Celts. Against the Wiz, whether it was lack of pressure D on their part or just superior play by Saras, he really did a nice job in that area. If you are a big Saras fan, the situation here would be frustrating, 3 good PGs and somewhat inconsistent PT. As I've said before, I hope in time Saras will somehow end up playing a more significant role for us that is more along the lines of his Euroleague success. Unfortunately, it does not look like that will happen in the near future. By the way, don't feel obligated to refer to the Hoosiers all the time. Sounds so divisive. We don't have to turn this into the Hoosiers vs. the World or anything. I know this reference is a result of a debate you got into in another thread. Everyone's voice is valid here regardless of their location or origin. Plenty of knowledgable hoops folk all over the place;).

Slick Pinkham
03-04-2006, 08:34 AM
Our European friends need to remember that as a rookie, future Hall-of-Famer Reggie Miller came off the bench to back up the not-so-legendary John Long.

It takes awhile to acclimate to the pace of the NBA game, RC's defensive schemes, the offensive tendencies of his teammates, and to gain the confidence of his coaches and teammates.

Please wait until next year to see his full impact. If traded he would go through the same stuff next year.

Lithfan
03-04-2006, 08:50 AM
I am not a European fan and so I have not watched any of those games. I am a fan of the Pacers and of Sarunas. I like Danny, David, Scot, Jeff, Cro et al. Shoot, I even like Jax every once in a while. I loved Tinsley when he played last year. AJ has garnered my respect after so many chances to succeed were given him. JO and the rest of the guys.. I like them all and root for them to win in every game.
But, in my opinion, the treatment Carlisle has given Sarunas so far this season has been almost criminal. I don't see why he doesn't trust him to lead this team. If AJ had been treated like Saras has the first 10 games when he was first starting, he would still be buried behind Eddie Gill in the lineup.

I personally feel Sarunas has not been given an proper chance to fully show what he can do like AJ has. I believe he has a special gift of play that Carlisle has not tapped into yet. I hope Rick doesn't ruin Runi before he gets a chance to show his full talent. :(

So Eindar owns you 10 bucks :laugh:.

Not only you I guess

Lithfan
03-04-2006, 08:57 AM
you forgot the importance of the general style of play. however you look at this, Saras wants more ball movement by the team imho. he wants the ball to come back to his hands often on offense. the team has to play team ball in order for Saras to help them as he really can. this is not something you could "design" overnight. some players do not understand (and hardly ever will) the game that Saras considers the right one. otherwise he's just a lousy shooter or god knows who (see the all-star rookie-sophs game). it's obvious that teamplay is the way to go for NBA, so hopefully in the future Pacers will be using even more ball movement. right now they are just learning to use such things (as well as some zone deffense). some teams are not using teamplay at all. however strange it sounds, NBA still has things to learn as recent international competitions clearly showed (and I'm sure next autumn NBA Europe Live! will show as well).

however, yeah, rookie status does not help Saras one bit. not only he's a rookie, but also European. obviously, upcoming seasons should be different, but we'll see.. I'm happy with his performance, but I would be more happy if Pacers would be wining more with or without his help.

Yeah you are right, the the style of play is also different. In europe you almost never see iso-plays. If ball is passed down to the center it comes back at least in 50% of the cases. But this is something people here agree upon. I think most PD members think that team offense is better. Don't you?:confused:

Lithfan
03-04-2006, 08:58 AM
LITHFAN,

Great analysis! I only brought up Saras's ball handling struggles in the context of last night's game v. Celts. Against the Wiz, whether it was lack of pressure D on their part or just superior play by Saras, he really did a nice job in that area. If you are a big Saras fan, the situation here would be frustrating, 3 good PGs and somewhat inconsistent PT. As I've said before, I hope in time Saras will somehow end up playing a more significant role for us that is more along the lines of his Euroleague success. Unfortunately, it does not look like that will happen in the near future. By the way, don't feel obligated to refer to the Hoosiers all the time. Sounds so divisive. We don't have to turn this into the Hoosiers vs. the World or anything. I know this reference is a result of a debate you got into in another thread. Everyone's voice is valid here regardless of their location or origin. Plenty of knowledgable hoops folk all over the place;).

Thanks for your positivity. ;)

I hope so too.

fifo
03-04-2006, 09:24 AM
Our European friends need to remember that as a rookie, future Hall-of-Famer Reggie Miller came off the bench to back up the not-so-legendary John Long.

It takes awhile to acclimate to the pace of the NBA game, RC's defensive schemes, the offensive tendencies of his teammates, and to gain the confidence of his coaches and teammates.

Please wait until next year to see his full impact. If traded he would go through the same stuff next year.

Those are good points.
I was all for waiting, but a certain Saras quote after one of the games, made me feel that he is not growing currently, but rather diminishing as a player.

I think it is important for a Rookie to grow and feel more & more trusted as the season progresses. Kind of what's happening to Granger. The situation with Saras seems different to me. I don't know why.

The thing is that pretty much any fan who saw Saras in the past has this feeling that given more confidence and legitimacy, this player would perform in a whole different level. Then again mabye we are all worshipers.:(

Knucklehead Warrior
03-04-2006, 12:32 PM
Actually I have noticed it for sometime but it is finally starting to get annoying. Wow. Only now? Since October for me. We really do need a Sarunas Digest.

Saras and Granger are both ROOKIES. They've both started about 15 games, both get about 22-23 minutes, both score around 7-8 pts. What's not to like about that? Ask Harrison and Gill what they think about it.

AJ has 10 years NBA experience over Saras. They both score about 8 points per game. But OOPS AJ's assist to TO ratio is almost 3, not really very good, while Saras' is not quite 2, less than not really very good. But both are pretty acceptable as BACKUPS, which is what they are.

I'll say it once again. People who are a LOT smarter than us are running this team. If they don't think a rookie should be a starter and get 39 minutes a game, I'm OK with it. I'm really sorry your pal isn't an NBA all-star yet. Maybe there are performance and skill reasons involved.

Hicks
03-04-2006, 12:36 PM
Posts like the one I'm quoting need to be obsessed over instead of the silly "Second Coming" stuff. People take the latter so much to heart that they change their posting style to fight it, rather than acknowledging the OTHER Saras fans who know what the hell they're talking about. I am so sick of BOTH extremes of the Saras talks. It's ridiculous. But I get especially tired of only the Saras-lovers getting ripped at about a ratio of 4 to 1 compared to the Saras-haters.

The post below is what should be getting the discussion. Basketball discussion. Not some whiny back and forth between the idolizers and the idolizer-whiners.

HEY!!!

What is Comcast network?

Is it on the internet? By the way if someone has NBA league pass.... a trusted ally will be happy to get some shares :cheers:

Now to the serious issues:

Clearly I have to react here.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
3ballinhoop - I felt exactly the same in many cases.<o:p></o:p>
However there is truth in UB, Eindar and Kestas words too.<o:p></o:p>
The thing is that highly respected Hoosiers on the most part really can't treat Saras the same as we. They didn't see his glamour. May be only in the previous game. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
What do the Hoosiers see (Do I need a the here?)?<o:p></o:p>
Some rookie that doesn't defend, cant bring the ball upcort with many annoying european fans coming after him, considering him second coming while he is only yes-a-cabbage-juice. (essence of the posts above)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
But believe us, we saw his magic. And not because his excellent dribbling or D. He sucked at both already in Europe, as I told you before. Hell, he didn't dribble at all in Maccabi and all team deffense scheme was built especially to cover his ***. In those surroundings he was great! <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
You know what, now, when I'm thinking about it, may be it was his previous coach genius. May be its too hard for <st1:place>Carlisle</st1:place> to design a role player scheme. But the thing is - <st1:city><st1:place>Detroit</st1:place></st1:city>, assembled from the role players is going for the next title. And that’s because each player is doing what he is best at. Saras is a kind of a role-player that was not seen in the NBA yet. [IMO, you tend to call role players only three type of players - shooters (Reggie), defensive experts (Ben Wallace) and rebounding experts (Rodman).]<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Sarunas brings 3 other expertise, by the descending importance:<o:p></o:p>
1. Passing and game vision on the highest imaginable level.<o:p></o:p>
2. Leadeship and passion. <o:p></o:p>
3. Solid shooting.<o:p></o:p>
And of course two major flaws:<o:p></o:p>
1. Poor dribling.<o:p></o:p>
2. Poor D.<o:p></o:p>
And that’s it. If Bird has done scouting he should have known this, every bball fan in <st1:place>europe</st1:place> in particularly in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> is aware of upper 5 points. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I believe that LB is smart and i want to believe that coach listens to him. If so, there are only two options:<o:p></o:p>
1. Its hard to design such a scheme for Saras in the NBA.<o:p></o:p>
2. Nobody wants to design anything for a rookie.<o:p></o:p>
And somehow I feel the second option is more viable.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
So to conclude this:<o:p></o:p>
Saras is a role player, a great one though. The greatness comes with weaknesses that should be hided by the coach. For some reason they are not and this limits his playing time and impact.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I also would like to ask all the respected Hoosiers not to tell us again and again that Saras sucked at D, have trouble bring a ball upcourt etc... I would be astonished if he wouldn’t.

Kegboy
03-04-2006, 01:29 PM
Your attempt to kill a serious discussion on Saras isn't funny at all.

:laugh:

Kegboy
03-04-2006, 01:33 PM
But I get especially tired of only the Saras-lovers getting ripped at about a ratio of 4 to 1 compared to the Saras-haters.

It helps the lovers outnumber the haters 40 to 1.

fifo
03-04-2006, 01:46 PM
It helps the lovers outnumber the haters 40 to 1.

Nope. The thing that drives people to extreme silly posts is mainly other extreme silly posts. Let's get back to basketball.
The best answer to idiotism are hard facts and non-offensive humor.

Saras is an interesting figure, and debates about him touch many points that are worthy:
- rookies
- court generals
- leadership
- international game
- pictures of mis-world
- relathionship between players during games
- talking to the media outside the court
Should I go on?

So sure, It involves a lot of spam, but it is still one of the best things that happend to Indy and the P.D this year.

Lithfan
03-04-2006, 02:10 PM
Posts like the one I'm quoting need to be obsessed over instead of the silly "Second Coming" stuff. People take the latter so much to heart that they change their posting style to fight it, rather than acknowledging the OTHER Saras fans who know what the hell they're talking about. I am so sick of BOTH extremes of the Saras talks. It's ridiculous. But I get especially tired of only the Saras-lovers getting ripped at about a ratio of 4 to 1 compared to the Saras-haters.

The post below is what should be getting the discussion. Basketball discussion. Not some whiny back and forth between the idolizers and the idolizer-whiners.

Thanks. Its a compliment right? :buddies:
In the highlighted sentence you meant that people attack Saras-lovers four times more than they attack Saras-haters?


fifo:

Saras is an interesting figure, and debates about him touch many points that are worthy

Yeah, especially since the are so many people that want to debate about him :D


Kegboy:

I didn't find where, but in some thread some Lithuanian girl told that Saras is like a god in Lithuania.

Then someone (not from Europe) responded that probably Kegboy would be considered a satan:darkness:

:-p

able
03-04-2006, 02:44 PM
Should I go on?

So sure, It involves a lot of spam, but it is still one of the best things that happend to Indy and the P.D this year.
???????

So it IS the second coming after all.

Thanks but no thanks, if it did anything for PD then it is helping it straight down the tubes.

And this will be my only post on this topic, or any other for that matter.

fifo
03-04-2006, 03:31 PM
???????

So it IS the second coming after all.

Thanks but no thanks, if it did anything for PD then it is helping it straight down the tubes.


Sorry, but I disagree.
I can see why this is not the same old PD you were familiar with, and don't get me wrong - I have nothing but respect for you guys who are 'running the show'.
Still - Saras has brought many new comers to the PD. A lot of spam, but a lot of interest too. That's my opinion at least.
If you feel you want all these new comers to go away and stop posting, just say so. I can't promise for others, but personally I have no intention of ruining your favorite site, if this is how you feel about it.



And this will be my only post on this topic, or any other for that matter.
Why? I'd really appreciate your opinions. I'm sure others will too.

fifo
03-04-2006, 03:53 PM
???????

So it IS the second coming after all.

Thanks but no thanks, if it did anything for PD then it is helping it straight down the tubes.

And this will be my only post on this topic, or any other for that matter.

You know what? On a second thought, this is just too much for me.
So you can consider this to be my last PD post.
Good luck and no hard feelings.

BlueNGold
03-04-2006, 06:12 PM
I am in accord with what Lithfan had to say. This summer when we picked up Saras, I was excited having seen him play. I have to say his leadership and passion for the game might be unrivaled. I thought he might be the piece the Pacers needed...a true leader.

Now, I have witnessed his weaknesses exposed by the style of play in the NBA...and whether he plays on the Pacers or any other NBA team, those weaknesses will remain....but I also recognize that if he is part of the right TEAM, he can make all of the other players much better....similar to Steve Nash and Jason Kidd. Clearly those two guys have weaknesses in their games too, but they make their team mates look very good.

So, how important Saras is to an NBA team will depend on the team's style of play, personnel and chemistry...and the Pacers have made a decided move in the right direction for him by picking up Peja and dropping head case. In short, the grass is probably no greener on another team. He will get a chance to prove himself over the next couple years.....but there should be no more excuses. You can be sure that Bird runs the show and wants to see Saras excel. Let's all give him a chance and see what happens.

FrenchConnection
03-04-2006, 07:06 PM
I really like Saras and I really want to see him excel but only because I think that this would be great for the Pacers. I am a Pacers' fan, not a Saras or JO or Danny or David Harrison or Peja fan. I think that the Saras fans need to understand that our support of this team is much like their support of their favorite teams at home. Imagine if I came on your message boards and said that Kenny Anderson is not playing enough at Zilgiris and became nationaly offended at any criticism of him.

As for Lithfan's points, I don't think that you can have a PG in the NBA who needs another player to bring the ball up the floor for him. When Saras came to the league, he said that he wanted to test himself at the highest level, and I think that the test is a bit tougher than he expected. I think that in the end he will be very good, but it will take all of his vaunted "basketball IQ" to adapt to the speed of NBA guards.

3ballinhoop
03-04-2006, 07:18 PM
Blue and Gold, these weaknesses weren't exposed by the style of play in the NBA, they were clear in Europe as well. Just read what Lithfan wrote. Clearly his handle isn't GREAT, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, so no Able, he doesn't produce 8 turnovers per match like you claimed in the beginning of the season. Furthermore, he isn't a shooter, he is a passer, who can shoot pretty well. You guys confuse that too often, just because he was a pure shooter at Maryland, and every single TV commentator keeps repeating it.

The problem i have with his situation in Indiana, that has been detected by many other posters on this board, is that he is not given confidence from Rick Carlisle, and that he does not seem to get it in an increasing way, like a new player/rookie should.
This is why i don't know how or if things will get better for him.

The facts are that Indiana lost to BOSTON yesterday, and decided not to play Jasikevicius, even though AJ wasn't playing particularly well and Saras came from a great game against Washington.
Regardless of if you like Saras or not, how do you think he feels about that?
He must be wondering why he isn't given more chances, and why, once he gets a chance and shows what he can do, he is immediately suppressed by the coach. Especially since i assume that he chose Indiana not only based on the teams class, but also because he felt that they wanted him badly. Or do you think he would have chosen the Pacers if Bird had told him with a friendly smile: Hey Saras, i know the Jazz would kill for you and the Cavs, where your homie Z plays want you too. But just look at our team: the coach doesn't really want you, so you won't ever get his confidence. Whenever you happen to create a turnover, he will take a timeout and substitue you out of the game, to show you how he feels. Also, when you are really hot and on a scoring run, he will damn sure sub you then too. Further, he will tell the press that your leadership is not needed and wanted, and tell you that you should concentrate on your own rubbish game instead. And when you once get to start because everybody is unhealthy, and you are inpolite enough to play a great game, you will watch our 2nd pg - you are the 3rd point guard Saras - shoot 2/10 from the bench. What do you say?

Even the people that dislike Saras the most on this board have to see that his situation isn't really good. What do you think will happen when Jamaal Tinsley returns? Before JTs injury, Saras was the 2nd point guard, and then he directly was the 2rd point guard behind Johnson, which already was pretty strange, as Saras himself has stated.
Now it seems like he will be the 3rd point guard, and i simply don't think that such a degradiation will work out. I wonder who in here believes that will work out just fine?

Finally, what i find very unfair is that somany of you have decided that Jasikevicius sucks based on those extremely restricted minutes he gets in an average match. By that, i don't mean his mpg, which is fine (!), but the way he has to play. He always gets the ball up court, then gives it to, mostly, Fred Jones, runs across the court and doesn't see the ball anymore, or takes a few occasional spot up three pointers. That is what Carlisle obviously has told him to do, which is his decision, but it is not right to think you have seen everything Saras can give you based on those plays.
In the Wizards game, where he got the ball more and, maybe just as important, didn't have to be afraid to get substituted after every single mistake, he showed that he is an excellent team player who can lead his team.

3ball

hoopsforlife
03-04-2006, 08:04 PM
Blue and Gold, these weaknesses weren't exposed by the style of play in the NBA, they were clear in Europe as well. Just read what Lithfan wrote. Clearly his handle isn't GREAT, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, so no Able, he doesn't produce 8 turnovers per match like you claimed in the beginning of the season. Furthermore, he isn't a shooter, he is a passer, who can shoot pretty well. You guys confuse that too often, just because he was a pure shooter at Maryland, and every single TV commentator keeps repeating it.

The problem i have with his situation in Indiana, that has been detected by many other posters on this board, is that he is not given confidence from Rick Carlisle, and that he does not seem to get it in an increasing way, like a new player/rookie should.
This is why i don't know how or if things will get better for him.

The facts are that Indiana lost to BOSTON yesterday, and decided not to play Jasikevicius, even though AJ wasn't playing particularly well and Saras came from a great game against Washington.
Regardless of if you like Saras or not, how do you think he feels about that?
He must be wondering why he isn't given more chances, and why, once he gets a chance and shows what he can do, he is immediately suppressed by the coach. Especially since i assume that he chose Indiana not only based on the teams class, but also because he felt that they wanted him badly. Or do you think he would have chosen the Pacers if Bird had told him with a friendly smile: Hey Saras, i know the Jazz would kill for you and the Cavs, where your homie Z plays want you too. But just look at our team: the coach doesn't really want you, so you won't ever get his confidence. Whenever you happen to create a turnover, he will take a timeout and substitue you out of the game, to show you how he feels. Also, when you are really hot and on a scoring run, he will damn sure sub you then too. Further, he will tell the press that your leadership is not needed and wanted, and tell you that you should concentrate on your own rubbish game instead. And when you once get to start because everybody is unhealthy, and you are inpolite enough to play a great game, you will watch our 2nd pg - you are the 3rd point guard Saras - shoot 2/10 from the bench. What do you say?

Even the people that dislike Saras the most on this board have to see that his situation isn't really good. What do you think will happen when Jamaal Tinsley returns? Before JTs injury, Saras was the 2nd point guard, and then he directly was the 2rd point guard behind Johnson, which already was pretty strange, as Saras himself has stated.
Now it seems like he will be the 3rd point guard, and i simply don't think that such a degradiation will work out. I wonder who in here believes that will work out just fine?

Finally, what i find very unfair is that somany of you have decided that Jasikevicius sucks based on those extremely restricted minutes he gets in an average match. By that, i don't mean his mpg, which is fine (!), but the way he has to play. He always gets the ball up court, then gives it to, mostly, Fred Jones, runs across the court and doesn't see the ball anymore, or takes a few occasional spot up three pointers. That is what Carlisle obviously has told him to do, which is his decision, but it is not right to think you have seen everything Saras can give you based on those plays.
In the Wizards game, where he got the ball more and, maybe just as important, didn't have to be afraid to get substituted after every single mistake, he showed that he is an excellent team player who can lead his team.

3ball

excellent post

Pacesetter
03-04-2006, 10:55 PM
I enjoy the way Sarunas plays, and knew it would be an adjustment for this group considering all the "hoopla" associated with his arrival (jealousy). I figure some of this might just be rookie dues, and next year will be the real test. Hopefully Sarunas will keep his head up, know that many of us old school dyed in the wool Pacers fans love watching him, and believe in him, and just trudge through this period in his career with optimism and shun negativity.

He'll get his turn, and when that day comes he'll have the support of everyone - his teammates & fans!!!!

Go Sarunas!!!!!!!! :cool:

BlueNGold
03-04-2006, 11:19 PM
Blue and Gold, these weaknesses weren't exposed by the style of play in the NBA, they were clear in Europe as well. Just read what Lithfan wrote. Clearly his handle isn't GREAT, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it....

First, I am a Saras fan. I enjoy watching him play and would love to see him start and lead this team. I have also been disappointed by some of RC's personnel decisions. I was screaming earlier this year when he sat Hulk, and now look how he is playing.

My reference to exposing Saras' weaknesses was not that they were not apparent in Europe. It was meant to point out that the speed of the NBA makes his weaknesses more obvious. I don't think this is just my opinion. Saras himself has stressed the difference in speed as being one of the key challenges for him. We are talking generally about defense and ball handling. These are both areas that require quickness or are influenced by the opponent's quickness.

Notwithstanding any of that, I love Saras' leadership and passion for the game and believe the Pacers need a player like him (a true leader) to win a championship. I still think he can be that guy if we put the right team around him and develop team chemistry.

McKeyFan
03-05-2006, 01:03 AM
I love Saras' leadership and passion for the game and believe the Pacers need a player like him (a true leader) to win a championship. I still think he can be that guy if we put the right team around him and develop team chemistry.

Well put.

My frustration is that AJ and Tinsley provide decent to good play, but can't take us to the next level. Either give Runi a chance to be that guy or trade them all for someone who can.

Lithfan
03-05-2006, 02:19 AM
I would like to know where you come from? In terms of USA/Europe/Other

Especially after someone here claimed that all Saras fans are Europeans.

I'm from Europe

Peck
03-05-2006, 02:54 AM
I've taken a whole new stance on Saras over the past few weeks.

I will not lie though I hate, absolutely hate, when he talks to the foreign press & seems to be disgruntled about being in Indiana & no I'm not just talking about the team. I mean I've read some of the things he's said about the city & let's just say that while I understand that we are not the booming metropolis that he is used to he at least has to understand that the people who live here don't want to be called hicks & rubes even if we are.;) Ok one clarification on that, Hicks doesn't mind being called a Hick.

But I am now going out of my way to give him a lot of room to complain about the locker room issues & the selfishness of the players because he had a horrid beggining in the NBA.

Look I make no bones about it, I didn't care for him coming here at all. I was already pleased with A.J. as the backup & I knew that he would start a lot because of Jamaal.

But I will say this Saras won me over at the beginning of the season because of his shooting touch & his above average passing skills.

But then I got turned off by his comments & some of his oncourt antics as well. What you guys call leadership I call being bossy.

However I think I was to hard on him as well. I think maybe he was sold a bill of goods by Bird & he is not in the situation he thought he would be in.

So what I want to do is talk about him as a player & a player only.

This is an honest question to any of his fans, either the European fans or you guys here in the states who like him.

What is it that he would do if given 30 plus consistant min. a night.

Give me both the good & the bad.

Also I know some of you are going to say leadership, that's fine, but could you please be specific as to what that is.

Lithfan
03-05-2006, 03:55 AM
I've taken a whole new stance on Saras over the past few weeks.

I will not lie though I hate, absolutely hate, when he talks to the foreign press & seems to be disgruntled about being in Indiana & no I'm not just talking about the team. I mean I've read some of the things he's said about the city & let's just say that while I understand that we are not the booming metropolis that he is used to he at least has to understand that the people who live here don't want to be called hicks & rubes even if we are.;) Ok one clarification on that, Hicks doesn't mind being called a Hick.

But I am now going out of my way to give him a lot of room to complain about the locker room issues & the selfishness of the players because he had a horrid beggining in the NBA.

Look I make no bones about it, I didn't care for him coming here at all. I was already pleased with A.J. as the backup & I knew that he would start a lot because of Jamaal.

But I will say this Saras won me over at the beginning of the season because of his shooting touch & his above average passing skills.

But then I got turned off by his comments & some of his oncourt antics as well. What you guys call leadership I call being bossy.

However I think I was to hard on him as well. I think maybe he was sold a bill of goods by Bird & he is not in the situation he thought he would be in.

So what I want to do is talk about him as a player & a player only.

This is an honest question to any of his fans, either the European fans or you guys here in the states who like him.

What is it that he would do if given 30 plus consistant min. a night.

Give me both the good & the bad.

Also I know some of you are going to say leadership, that's fine, but could you please be specific as to what that is.

All right here we go...
30 min yeah?

Lets suppose that oppositely to the current situation, he will be given more freedom in the offensive game and will play PG. Starting PG. Because minutes are not really indicative, as 3ball said. He plays above 20 min now, so what. He is ofen not involved. The only game he was involved was Vs WSH.

He will give: Hulk 10 ppg in 20 min. Jax more than ~50%FG if he runs in fast break. JO - ohhh JO, does he play in Pacers? I'm kind of forgot about him... JO - above 50% FG. PEJA 50% FG. Saras - 12 ppg 8apg. Most importantly - Pacers 60-80% winning crushing opponents team. 100+ ppg, 470% FG 25 apg. Excellent fastbreak.

Add to this ~3 TO and guarding opponents lest capable guard. Playing zone D. And one more foul per game to Pollard/Hulk/JO.

IMPORTANT: No pouting on or off the bench. Motivation. Momentum.

Fast flowing Suns like offence + Pacers D = 2006 Championship. Still possible. Second coming :rolleyes:...

But I'm not joking about what he can give.

Not bad huh? :-o

Peck
03-05-2006, 04:40 AM
All right here we go...
30 min yeah?

Lets suppose that oppositely to the current situation, he will be given more freedom in the offensive game and will play PG. Starting PG. Because minutes are not really indicative, as 3ball said. He plays above 20 min now, so what. He is ofen not involved. The only game he was involved was Vs WSH.

He will give: Hulk 10 ppg in 20 min. Jax more than ~50%FG if he runs in fast break. JO - ohhh JO, does he play in Pacers? I'm kind of forgot about him... JO - above 50% FG. PEJA 50% FG. Saras - 12 ppg 8apg. Most importantly - Pacers 60-80% winning crushing opponents team. 100+ ppg, 470% FG 25 apg. Excellent fastbreak.

Add to this ~3 TO and guarding opponents lest capable guard. Playing zone D. And one more foul per game to Pollard/Hulk/JO.

IMPORTANT: No pouting on or off the bench. Motivation. Momentum.

Fast flowing Suns like offence + Pacers D = 2006 Championship. Still possible. Second coming :rolleyes:...

But I'm not joking about what he can give.

Not bad huh? :-o

Now I'm not trying to be difficult here because I do believe some of what you say.

But let me ask this, have you taken into consideration that teams in the NBA scout the hell out of the opposition? He would be able to run that fast paced offense for a good while but teams would learn to shut off the drive & limit the fast breaks.

Then what?

Can he translate his game into a grind it out half court offense like the E.C. playoffs always become?

Also I do think you are underestimating him a little bit on one aspect. I bet if he were given 30+ min. a game he would average around 15-16ppg.

But back to my question, how well would he adapt to a half court offense? I'm sure you guys saw that over in Isreal so I wonder how he adjusted. So far here I think he has done ok in the half court but he has to be far more of a willing scorer to make it work.

Lithfan
03-05-2006, 05:04 AM
Now I'm not trying to be difficult here because I do believe some of what you say.

But let me ask this, have you taken into consideration that teams in the NBA scout the hell out of the opposition? He would be able to run that fast paced offense for a good while but teams would learn to shut off the drive & limit the fast breaks.

Then what?

Can he translate his game into a grind it out half court offense like the E.C. playoffs always become?

Also I do think you are underestimating him a little bit on one aspect. I bet if he were given 30+ min. a game he would average around 15-16ppg.

But back to my question, how well would he adapt to a half court offense? I'm sure you guys saw that over in Isreal so I wonder how he adjusted. So far here I think he has done ok in the half court but he has to be far more of a willing scorer to make it work.

So what if NBA teams do good scouting job. The same happens in Europe.

To shut down a good scorer is possible though hard. However, its extremely hard, not to say impossible to shut down a good passer. Simply because the direction of the ball movement is unpredictable.

The fast breaks with Saras as well as half court offense are based on the passing. In fast breaks its long and precise passes immediately after rebound and in half court its pick and roll. You see, even though transition and fast break are more creative situations, half court doesn't have to be solely iso. Thats the trend, also in NBA. Pick and roll, offensive schemes, blocking for shooter you name it. IMO iso is only when you have extreme mismatch. But if you have one, other team will react and change it or make a double team. So player has to pass it out. I think in almost 99% iso is a mistake.

In any case he is not above the average passer. He is great passer. Thats his expertise numero uno. He will do fine in the half court if coach lets him.

I've just reminded your comment about willing scorer...
I think this is true, may be he lacks scorer mentality needed to go to the other level in the NBA. In Europe his shooting skills were considered secondary.

Peck
03-05-2006, 06:45 AM
So what if NBA teams do good scouting job. The same happens in Europe.

To shut down a good scorer is possible though hard. However, its extremely hard, not to say impossible to shut down a good passer. Simply because the direction of ball movement is unpredictable.

The fast breaks with Saras as well as half court offense are based on the passing. In fast breaks its long and precise passes immediately after rebound and in half court its pick and roll. You see, even though transition and fast break are more creative situations, half court doesn't have to be solely iso. Thats the trend, also in NBA. Pick and roll, offensive schemes, blocking for shooter you name it. IMO iso is only when you have extreme mismatch. But if you have one, other team will react and change it or make a double team. So player has to pass it out. I think in almost 99% iso is a mistake.

In any case he is not above the average passer. He is great passer. Thats his expertise numero uno. He will do fine in the half court if coach lets him.

I've just reminded your comment about willing scorer...
I think this is true, may be he lacks scorer mentality needed to go to the other level in the NBA. In Europe his shooting skills were considered secondary.


A couple of notes.

1. If you think Iso's are wrong 99% of the time then you must love Rick Carlisle's offensive scheme's. Now I'm with you in thinking that Iso's are wrong most of the time, however 99% is a little high.

2. You keep saying "if the coach lets him" on several differant issues. Do you believe that Rick is intentionally keeping him down? Do you think that Rick just does not like him or doesn't understand him or coach's differant than Saras plays?

I have a theory on that myself.

Lithfan
03-05-2006, 08:34 AM
A couple of notes.

1. If you think Iso's are wrong 99% of the time then you must love Rick Carlisle's offensive scheme's. Now I'm with you in thinking that Iso's are wrong most of the time, however 99% is a little high.

2. You keep saying "if the coach lets him" on several differant issues. Do you believe that Rick is intentionally keeping him down? Do you think that Rick just does not like him or doesn't understand him or coach's differant than Saras plays?

I have a theory on that myself.

Yeah I "love" Ricks offensive iso schemes. May be 99% is exaggeration, lets cut it down to more relevant 75%.

Regarding your second point. Well I'm very sorry but I have no opportunity to watch Pacers more than 5-10 games this season. May be now when it will be available on the net I'll be able to do that. I do track every game stats and play by play though. However this is not enough to build theories about type of relations between Rick and Saras. Its more a visual thing.

But I'll be glad to hear your theory...

beast23
03-05-2006, 09:21 AM
And that’s it. If Bird has done scouting he should have known this, every bball fan in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>europe</st1:place> in particularly in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> is aware of upper 5 points. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I believe that LB is smart and i want to believe that coach listens to him. If so, there are only two options:<o:p></o:p>
1. Its hard to design such a scheme for Saras in the NBA.<o:p></o:p>
2. Nobody wants to design anything for a rookie.<o:p></o:p>
And somehow I feel the second option is more viable.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
So to conclude this:<o:p></o:p>
Saras is a role player, a great one though. The greatness comes with weaknesses that should be hided by the coach. For some reason they are not and this limits his playing time and impact.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I also would like to ask all the respected Hoosiers not to tell us again and again that Saras sucked at D, have trouble bring a ball upcourt etc... I would be astonished if he wouldn’t.No offense, but Bird "should have known this"?

Hell, yes. Bird knows this. With Bird's experience in playing the game and in recognizing talent, do you think there is anything that you couild possibly know in your years of following Saras on a basketball court, that Bird doesn't possibly know?

Get real.

You list two options above regarding basically why Saras has not excelled. Your second option states that "nobody wants to design anything for a rookie", and you pass it off as the most likely.

Yet there are plenty of teams that change their offensive styles for a rookie, or at least the right rookie.

The bottom line is this. There is no team in the NBA that would even consider changing their style for a 3RD-STRING POINT GUARD.

And since a team will not change their style of play for a 3RD-STRING POINT GUARD, they will not make changes to try to hide his shortcomings.

What you guys don't seem to realize is that Saras must conform to the team, the team is NOT going to conform to Saras.

That being said, PG is probably the hardest position to learn to play in the NBA. And yes, I say LEARN to play... because Saras isn't there yet.

We've seen a glimpse or two of what he can become and the impact that he can eventually have for our team, and quite frankly, I'm excited about that. But he has a long, long way to go.

You guys may not like the fact that some of "us Hoosiers" keep bringing up his weaknesses. Yet, on the other side of the coin, after another "glimpse" of his future promise, you come on here blowing the same smoke up our butts... that our mentioning his weaknesses is getting old and that we should somehow ignore them and only "look on the positive side" by seeing his strengths.

Well, guess what? A basketball player is made up of strengths and weaknesses. And usually, when he steps onto the court, as you see his strengths come into play, his weaknesses are exposed as well. And vice-versa.

How about we give Saras the rest of the season and maybe part of next year to improve upon those weaknesses. Because like it or not, it's not his strengths that are limitiing his playing time; it's his weaknesses.

Lithfan
03-05-2006, 09:56 AM
No offense, but Bird "should have known this"?

Hell, yes. Bird knows this. With Bird's experience in playing the game and in recognizing talent, do you think there is anything that you couild possibly know in your years of following Saras on a basketball court, that Bird doesn't possibly know?

Get real.


Do you have a selectable vision or comprehension? I mean do you prefer to read one part and ignore the other? I wrote that I hope Bird knows it.


You list two options above regarding basically why Saras has not excelled. Your second option states that "nobody wants to design anything for a rookie", and you pass it off as the most likely.

Yet there are plenty of teams that change their offensive styles for a rookie, or at least the right rookie.

The bottom line is this. There is no team in the NBA that would even consider changing their style for a 3RD-STRING POINT GUARD.

And since a team will not change their style of play for a 3RD-STRING POINT GUARD, they will not make changes to try to hide his shortcomings.

What you guys don't seem to realize is that Saras must conform to the team, the team is NOT going to conform to Saras.

That being said, PG is probably the hardest position to learn to play in the NBA. And yes, I say LEARN to play... because Saras isn't there yet.

We've seen a glimpse or two of what he can become and the impact that he can eventually have for our team, and quite frankly, I'm excited about that. But he has a long, long way to go.

You guys may not like the fact that some of "us Hoosiers" keep bringing up his weaknesses. Yet, on the other side of the coin, after another "glimpse" of his future promise, you come on here blowing the same smoke up our butts... that our mentioning his weaknesses is getting old and that we should somehow ignore them and only "look on the positive side" by seeing his strengths.

Well, guess what? A basketball player is made up of strengths and weaknesses. And usually, when he steps onto the court, as you see his strengths come into play, his weaknesses are exposed as well. And vice-versa.

How about we give Saras the rest of the season and maybe part of next year to improve upon those weaknesses. Because like it or not, it's not his strengths that are limitiing his playing time; it's his weaknesses.

Your highlighted point is absolute opposite of truth i.e. false.

"What you guys don't seem to realize is that Saras must conform to the team, the team is NOT going to conform to Saras."

It's just the case where the coach has to help him to become an impact player and then he'll return it with 10-fold interest. And your saying just proves my point - system would not be changed for a rookie.

So you're telling me that system is changed for a good enough rookie. You see, it is easy to spot a great rookie in LeBron. Its a bit harder in Saras, though Bird did. I don't believe he travelled all other the Europe and created all this hoopla (as you favourite second stringer AJ says) for a third string PG. Moreother Saras, even with limited PT and other problems is doing well. Better than Rick's favourite AJ if you summarize the whole season. I believe there is some conflict on Saras issue between Bird and Rick.

Yeah, basketball players are judged by their strengths and weaknesses. But if you take a group of individuals where each has different strengths and weaknesses the net result can be better. Just look at Detroit. However it demands to adapt the current system, because he can't really adapt to it.

Hicks
03-05-2006, 11:01 AM
Ok one clarification on that, Hicks doesn't mind being called a Hick.


:nono:

Peck
03-05-2006, 02:08 PM
Yeah I "love" Ricks offensive iso schemes. May be 99% is exaggeration, lets cut it down to more relevant 75%.

Regarding your second point. Well I'm very sorry but I have no opportunity to watch Pacers more than 5-10 games this season. May be now when it will be available on the net I'll be able to do that. I do track every game stats and play by play though. However this is not enough to build theories about type of relations between Rick and Saras. Its more a visual thing.

But I'll be glad to hear your theory...


I'll give you my quick theory cause I gotta go watch the game. I think Rick has certain types of players he likes & certain types of players he tolerates & IMO Saras is a player he tolerates.

Rick loves players who can play solid man to man defense & he loathes turnovers. I think he ages 3 years for every turn over we have.

Saras is just a risky player, that is not a bad thing btw because as the old saying goes "nothing ventured nothing gained", but it is NOT a philosphy that Rick follows.

My real theory is this though. I think Bird F'd up in one thing & he did it in a big way. I think Larry brought Saras over here with the thought of him being a great shooter, not a great passer. Don't get me wrong I think he knew he could pass & lead the break but I think that he thought Saras would be ok with being the teams designated outside shooter.

In other words Saras wasn't brought here by Bird to lead the team or be this great p.g., he brought him here to replace Reggie Miller in the outside shooting department. Of course that's just my opinion & I could be wrong.

I think Larry had no idea how unhappy Saras would be not being the first p.g., so while I've assumed all season long that Bird & Carlisle were on differant pages in ref. to Saras I now think that Saras & Bird were on differant pages from the start.

Arcadian
03-05-2006, 02:12 PM
The reason I believe Saras was brought here was because with Artest, talent-wise the Pacers were a championship team. The think was if we could get some more leadership and steady 1 play we'd be that much closer. Saras fit that bill. With Artest gone (thankfully) the situation has changed. Leadership and steadiness are not all that we need from the point.

I believe that in the right system that Saras could be a piece of a championship team. I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that fitting the system around Saras would make us a championship team. Saras isn't that good. Players who are Duncan, Shaq, the very best players in the NBA. Saras isn't remotely near that caliber.

Rytas_Jega
03-05-2006, 02:38 PM
I think that the test is a bit tougher than he expected.

Šaras has said many times he didn't expect such good individual statistics before signing with Pacers.

He has complained a lot about his team and American lifestyle. However, I'm not going to quote it.

rexnom
03-05-2006, 03:00 PM
Šaras has said many times he didn't expect such good individual statistics before signing with Pacers.

He has complained a lot about his team and American lifestyle. However, I'm not going to quote it.

He's complained about his team? I am sorry but why are we taking this? Ron started complaining and we traded him and Ron was arguably our best player. I'm not an NBA player so maybe I have it wrong but aren't you supposed to be supportive of your team regardless? I just don't get it sometimes.

Unclebuck
03-05-2006, 05:16 PM
Saras shot the ball well today and that is huge. But his ability to handle defensive pressure and his ability to run the team was not good.

Peck
03-05-2006, 05:36 PM
Šaras has said many times he didn't expect such good individual statistics before signing with Pacers.

He has complained a lot about his team and American lifestyle. However, I'm not going to quote it.


Oh you might as well, it's not like we haven't heard some of this all season long from him.

Lithfan
03-05-2006, 05:37 PM
He's complained about his team? I am sorry but why are we taking this? Ron started complaining and we traded him and Ron was arguably our best player. I'm not an NBA player so maybe I have it wrong but aren't you supposed to be supportive of your team regardless? I just don't get it sometimes.

Man thats translation problem. He never complained about his team.
Right Rytas?

Lithfan
03-05-2006, 05:58 PM
I'll give you my quick theory cause I gotta go watch the game. I think Rick has certain types of players he likes & certain types of players he tolerates & IMO Saras is a player he tolerates.

Rick loves players who can play solid man to man defense & he loathes turnovers. I think he ages 3 years for every turn over we have.

Saras is just a risky player, that is not a bad thing btw because as the old saying goes "nothing ventured nothing gained", but it is NOT a philosphy that Rick follows.

My real theory is this though. I think Bird F'd up in one thing & he did it in a big way. I think Larry brought Saras over here with the thought of him being a great shooter, not a great passer. Don't get me wrong I think he knew he could pass & lead the break but I think that he thought Saras would be ok with being the teams designated outside shooter.

In other words Saras wasn't brought here by Bird to lead the team or be this great p.g., he brought him here to replace Reggie Miller in the outside shooting department. Of course that's just my opinion & I could be wrong.

I think Larry had no idea how unhappy Saras would be not being the first p.g., so while I've assumed all season long that Bird & Carlisle were on differant pages in ref. to Saras I now think that Saras & Bird were on differant pages from the start.

May be you right, may be you don't.

But Bird with all his basketball knowledge should have know that Saras was an average SG shooter in college that went undrafted.

He really learned how to play in Europe. Transformation into the PG made him a star.

Regarding today's game. In other threads you say he sucked but shot well. I didn't saw the game so please explain me. He sucked when he tried to run with the ball upcort?

Another question - Did the last pass was tricky?
And this is important - Did Sarunas stood behind the basket while passing, so Jax just layed it up without dribbling or was it something else?

Peck
03-05-2006, 06:09 PM
May be you right, may be you don't.

But Bird with all his basketball knowledge should have know that Saras was an average SG shooter in college that went undrafted.

He really learned how to play in Europe. Transformation into the PG made him a star.

Regarding today's game. In other threads you say he sucked but shot well. I didn't saw the game so please explain me. He sucked when he tried to run with the ball upcort?

Another question - Did the last pass was tricky?
And this is important - Did Sarunas stood behind the basket while passing, so Jax just layed it up without dribbling or was it something else?


To your first question. Yes, he sucked huge donkey balls when he tried to run the ball upcourt. The min. he came in the game the 76ers began to run pressure full-court defense & it was all he could do to even make it past the halfway line. They made him go wherever they wanted to.

To your second question, I think I understand what you are asking anyway. No, the pass was not tricky at all. It was just a straight chest pass.

Last question. No, Saras was not under or behind the basket. It was on the sidelines.

We ran the stacked offense that almost every team runs on the inbounds play & from the best I can remember Jackson just made a forward move & a lateral cut towards the basket & his defender (Kyle Korver) fell down while trying to chase him. Dalembert had his back to the play & never rotated back to step in Jax's way, thus leaving Jackson wide open for a layup.

A layup!!!!! Can you believe we got a layup on that. I'm sure Dipperdunk's life essance decreased by 5 years on that play.;)

Anyway to be honest with you it was not because either Jax or Saras made a great play, it was because Philly had a complete & total defensive breakdown.

Kegboy
03-05-2006, 06:10 PM
May be you right, may be you don't.

But Bird with all his basketball knowledge should have know that Saras was an average SG shooter in college that went undrafted.

He really learned how to play in Europe. Transformation into the PG made him a star.

Regarding today's game. In other threads you say he sucked but shot well. I didn't saw the game so please explain me. He sucked when he tried to run with the ball upcort?

Another question - Did the last pass was tricky?
And this is important - Did Sarunas stood behind the basket while passing, so Jax just layed it up without dribbling or was it something else?

He had a couple bad turnovers and was constantly pressured. At one point he threw a risky pass to Harrison that was too high. When David went up for it, he was undercut and came down hard. Scary moment.

The final play was a simple inbounds from the side as drawn up. Jackson curled off a screen and Philly switched Korver on him, as expected. Cabbage inbounded to Jack, Korver fell down, and Jack had an open lane to the basket.

Lithfan
03-05-2006, 06:27 PM
Thanks Peck and Kegboy for your answers.

They just had that play in Maccabi with Saras inbound pass fom behind the basket that was constantly giving them easy layups, so I thought I saw some similarities. Apparently I didn't.

Anyway its a happy day so...
Pecks patented tm - fruit dance...

:pepper: :mango: :cucumber: :carrot: :pineapple :rock: :apple: :dorange:

Peck
03-05-2006, 06:35 PM
Thanks Peck and Kegboy for your answers.

They just had that play in Maccabi with Saras inbound pass fom behind the basket that was constantly giving them easy layups, so I thought I saw some similarities. Apparently I didn't.

Anyway its a happy day so...
Pecks patented tm - fruit dance...

:pepper: :mango: :cucumber: :carrot: :pineapple :rock: :apple: :dorange:


I can never pass up a fruit dance.:)

:carrot: :pineapple :mango: :cucumber: :bdance: :bananadan

And since it is a lazy sunday :lazy:

Lithfan
03-05-2006, 06:39 PM
I can never pass up a fruit dance.:)

:carrot: :pineapple :mango: :cucumber: :bdance: :bananadan

And since it is a lazy sunday :lazy:

What?!!? Its a busy Monday! :laugh:

denyfizle
03-05-2006, 06:41 PM
I am a big Runi fan. We all know the positives he brings to the team. So all theories aside, all Carlisle wants is "SOLID DEFENSE." Nothing new, but I just hope our Lith friends dwell on it a lot more. I think there's tons of players NOT IN THE NBA that are equally gifted offensively as Runi who haven't been given a crack at a roster spot in the big league. And sadly, the Pacers don't really need Runi's leadership as much as Macabbe Tel Aviv did. So I suggest that we all just appreciate what Runi gives and gets to and from the Pacers. Free Jasikevicius??? You must be dreaming if you think there's another franchise in the NBA right now that would've given Runi more PT and support. As good as he is, it's a transition. He's just got to learn the NBA game and shut up (same goes with his eurohoops fans that claim they don't really like the NBA) or just go back to Euro ball.

BlueNGold
03-05-2006, 08:02 PM
Not sure where to start on this.


I think there's tons of players NOT IN THE NBA that are equally gifted offensively as Runi who haven't been given a crack at a roster spot in the big league.

I guess it depends on what you mean by tons. Runi is near the top in the league at the stripe. He has a great pct. from 3pt range. He is an excellent passer. He is an above average NBA PG right now if you consider all starters and backups in the league, with offense being about the only reason he is in the league at all right now. Please contact the Pacers and let them know about all of these offensive stars we could add to the roster.


And sadly, the Pacers don't really need Runi's leadership as much as Macabbe Tel Aviv did.

I think the Pacer players may not WANT his leadership...but they do lack a leader...and don't say JO is the leader. He is a leader wannabe. Great player, nice guy, but he does not have "it".



He's just got to learn the NBA game and shut up (same goes with his eurohoops fans that claim they don't really like the NBA) or just go back to Euro ball.

Keep talking Euro fans. We appreciate your insight into his game. Saras has been a bit critical and may not have earned the right to be critical, but we do protect free speech here. In any event, the Pacers need to hear some of that whether it comes from Dale Davis or Saras.

DeS
03-05-2006, 09:02 PM
No way is he above average. Not even close.
Prove it. This may be true, but i'm awaiting the prove.


ANd I dont buy that Runi is a leader at all. And yes, JO has stepped up big time this year (prior to his injury), so I can, and will call him the current leader.
Well, maybe it's just me, but I didn't get the impression of JO being a true on-court leader, although I like his off-court talking. As some pointed out - sometimes it seems that this team is doing better without JO. I'm waiting for JO to return, but not because of his on-court leadership. Sadly, this team has no true on-court leader (Runi now isn't (and never was) also the leader, although sometimes it looked like 2 squad accepted him as a leader).

denyfizle
03-05-2006, 10:33 PM
Keep talking Euro fans. We appreciate your insight into his game. Saras has been a bit critical and may not have earned the right to be critical, but we do protect free speech here. In any event, the Pacers need to hear some of that whether it comes from Dale Davis or Saras.


I was strictly pertaining to the "the NBA is garbage" talk and the complaints about the NBA game. Hey, the NBA game is not going to change for Runi and neither is the Pacers. I love Runi's game. But all the negative talk about our team and the league and stuff like that has just got to stop at some point. A true leader finds a way to contribute and not just point out the negatives. Runi has found ways to contribute, it's the negative comments that he has to work on.

I do appreciate the input our European posters give, I just can't stand the "free Runi" campaign anymore by some. All I'm saying is that the Pacers have been good to Runi whether eurofans believe it or not. The only reason why he's really been getting less PT is because he's a liability on defense in a defense oriented team. Considering that, don't you think he's actually being given a long leash? I do. And I'm a bigl Runi fan even before he moved to us. You can check my posts from where we acquired him when I was being ridiculed for hyping him too much.

BlueNGold
03-05-2006, 11:21 PM
I was strictly pertaining to the "the NBA is garbage" talk and the complaints about the NBA game. Hey, the NBA game is not going to change for Runi and neither is the Pacers. I love Runi's game. But all the negative talk about our team and the league and stuff like that has just got to stop at some point. A true leader finds a way to contribute and not just point out the negatives. Runi has found ways to contribute, it's the negative comments that he has to work on.

I do appreciate the input our European posters give, I just can't stand the "free Runi" campaign anymore by some. All I'm saying is that the Pacers have been good to Runi whether eurofans believe it or not. The only reason why he's really been getting less PT is because he's a liability on defense in a defense oriented team. Considering that, don't you think he's actually being given a long leash? I do. And I'm a bigl Runi fan even before he moved to us. You can check my posts from where we acquired him when I was being ridiculed for hyping him too much.

I agree he has been given a long leash. Most any other rookie would get strung up for some of his comments....and I do not enjoy hearing criticism of our game from someone who of his own choice came over the pond to play and should have done more research if he had problems with the style. Also, he really needs to back his talk up on the court.

However, he has come into the league with credibility. He has a champion mentality and we got what we paid for IMO. He is not a follower and will likely always speak his mind and have strong opinions. Some of them I agree with, some I don't. Some of the comments about the team's maturity level, lack of team play in the NBA, the business nature of the NBA are valid. Some of them are valid criticisms, some of them he will just have to accept.

BlueNGold
03-05-2006, 11:38 PM
No way is he above average. Not even close.


You have to consider he is competing with the likes of Eddie Gill when you consider whether Saras is average. Saras is at least an above average backup in this league which makes him an above average PG assuming teams have at least 3 PG's. So, yes he is above average.



And teh Euro fans can talk all they want, they do impact the team. Its the player on the team who needs to learn how to stop *****in about the city, etc. and his teammates can (and probably do) hear that *****ing. Im sure that sits real well with them, hearing all his complaining.

The truth hurts....and maybe they need to hear it. Its just the man's opinion anyway.



ANd I dont buy that Runi is a leader at all. And yes, JO has stepped up big time this year (prior to his injury), so I can, and will call him the current leader.
JO is a leader wannabe. Anyone who has to claim leadership, is no leader. What a joke! :laugh:

DeS
03-06-2006, 03:35 AM
Watch the game today.

And its not like this is his first "bad game"

Runi went about it the wrong way, and JO has stepped up to being a on-court leader this season........

You are talking by emotions. Although I didn't made extensive research, I listed NBA guards by efficiency, and he surely was in the first half. You can also (after washington) say that he had "not the first good game". I (and also mane other Runi fans) agree what Runi made some things wrong, no need to **** about it all the time. No one is perfect. JO also said several things he should not say idealy.

As with JO - I have no problem with him being leader, just I didn't saw him being a true on-court leader. Though, I'll wait playoffs to form my final opinion about his leadership.

ChicagoJ
03-06-2006, 02:01 PM
No offense, but Bird "should have known this"?

Hell, yes. Bird knows this. With Bird's experience in playing the game and in recognizing talent, do you think there is anything that you couild possibly know in your years of following Saras on a basketball court, that Bird doesn't possibly know?

Get real.

You list two options above regarding basically why Saras has not excelled. Your second option states that "nobody wants to design anything for a rookie", and you pass it off as the most likely.

Yet there are plenty of teams that change their offensive styles for a rookie, or at least the right rookie.

The bottom line is this. There is no team in the NBA that would even consider changing their style for a 3RD-STRING POINT GUARD.

And since a team will not change their style of play for a 3RD-STRING POINT GUARD, they will not make changes to try to hide his shortcomings.

What you guys don't seem to realize is that Saras must conform to the team, the team is NOT going to conform to Saras.

That being said, PG is probably the hardest position to learn to play in the NBA. And yes, I say LEARN to play... because Saras isn't there yet.

We've seen a glimpse or two of what he can become and the impact that he can eventually have for our team, and quite frankly, I'm excited about that. But he has a long, long way to go.

You guys may not like the fact that some of "us Hoosiers" keep bringing up his weaknesses. Yet, on the other side of the coin, after another "glimpse" of his future promise, you come on here blowing the same smoke up our butts... that our mentioning his weaknesses is getting old and that we should somehow ignore them and only "look on the positive side" by seeing his strengths.

Well, guess what? A basketball player is made up of strengths and weaknesses. And usually, when he steps onto the court, as you see his strengths come into play, his weaknesses are exposed as well. And vice-versa.

How about we give Saras the rest of the season and maybe part of next year to improve upon those weaknesses. Because like it or not, it's not his strengths that are limitiing his playing time; it's his weaknesses.

Brilliant post from Beast23, yet again. Especially the last 2-3 paragraphs.

Thanks.