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NaptownBound
03-01-2006, 08:25 AM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060301/SPORTS04/603010470/1088

Who is to start at point?
When Tinsley returns, Johnson's strong play will make it an issue

By Mike Wells
<SCRIPT language=JavaScript><!--document.write(''+'mike.wells'+'@'+'indystar.com'+ ' (http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/+)');//--></SCRIPT>mike.wells@indystar.com (mike.wells@indystar.com)

Anthony Johnson says Jamaal Tinsley is the starter. Tinsley says Johnson should continue to start. Sarunas Jasikevicius, the third point guard in the group, just wants to play, anywhere.

The coach, well, he doesn't want to address the issue yet.

As much as Indiana Pacers coach Rick Carlisle doesn't wish to talk about it, he knows eventually he'll have two decisions to make about his trio of point guards: who starts, and how can he manage playing time for all three?

"I don't know; it's not really a conversation until it's a reality," Carlisle said. "We'll see. A lot can happen between now and when (Tinsley) comes back. It's a situation that we'll resolve when it comes time to resolve it."

Tinsley, the team's starter at the beginning of the season, continues to make progress on the right elbow injury that has sidelined him the past 12 games. He is practicing on his own, but neither he nor the team has set a return date.

A player isn't supposed to lose his starting job to injury, but Johnson has grabbed hold of the role and is doing his best not to let go.

Johnson, filling in for Tinsley for the second consecutive season, is averaging 10.5 points and 5.1 assists as a starter compared to 4.1 points and 2.4 assists off the bench this season. He's averaging 17.2 points and 6.4 assists over the past five games.

"He's playing great right now," Detroit Pistons coach Flip Saunders said. "I said one of the reasons they're playing so well right now is because of the play of Johnson and the play of (Danny) Granger. Those two guys have stepped up and they're playing at an extremely high level."

Carlisle won't say that Johnson will remain the starter when Tinsley returns, but the coach said Johnson will get an opportunity to keep the job.

"We need him to continue to play well to have a chance to keep having some success," Carlisle said. "He's making a strong case to be the starter."

Tinsley, on pace to play less than half the season for a second consecutive year, said he plans to tell coaches he is fine coming off the bench.

"It's a good thing that A.J. is playing well," Tinsley said. "Right now, how he's playing, I don't even want to come back and start. I think he's been playing good and he's doing a great job for us. I just want to come back and help the team. The chemistry is going good. That's my thing."

It's no secret how much better Tinsley makes the Pacers when he's healthy. Boston Celtics coach Doc Rivers said earlier this season the Pacers wouldn't have beaten his team in the playoffs last season if Tinsley hadn't returned for Game 5. Tinsley's style is tailored to the Pacers' new up-tempo style.

"My point on it is, Jamaal is definitely the starter," said Johnson, who began the season as the third point guard. "Jamaal is definitely the more talented of the three. There's no question about that. At the same time, we have to see where he's at since he's been out for a long period of time. You have to do what's best for the team. If that means starting him or bringing him off the bench, that's a decision for Rick to make.

"I feel like I've thrown my hat in the ring by playing well. Whether it's starting or coming off the bench, I just want to be in the rotation."
Jasikevicius and Johnson have said they'll play shooting guard, but neither feels comfortable there because neither would have the ball in his hands as much.

"I have no idea what's going to happen," said Jasikevicius, who likely will be the third point guard when Tinsley returns. "I've been a backup ever since I've been here. I've been Jamaal's backup, then when Jamaal went down, I was A.J.'s backup. I don't know what my role is going to be. It doesn't matter who is starting, I'm the backup. That's one thing that was very strange. At the same time, that's the way it works."

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Jumper
03-01-2006, 08:38 AM
"It's a good thing that A.J. is playing well," Tinsley said. "Right now, how he's playing, I don't even want to come back and start. I think he's been playing good and he's doing a great job for us. I just want to come back and help the team. The chemistry is going good. That's my thing."


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Looks like the team itself is on the same page that PD is on. I agree with the article that when Tinsley is healthy he can be a much better pg for this team. Especially with the new free flowing offensive philosophy that we have developed. But AJ starting when Tins gets back is definetely the way to go. The only thing that alarms me is what Saras said at the end. Seems like he is a little restless. Hopefully that just motivates him to go out and play harder and not be a pain in the locker room.

Ragnar
03-01-2006, 09:19 AM
Man that Tinsley sure has a bad additude. We had better get his self-aggrandizing hates his team mates *** off this team. Never mind that in the rest of the league if a player is injured he does not lose his starting job no matter how good the player who replaced him is playing. What a selfish ******* Tinsley must is to have that bad of an additude.












In case you are new to the board the above statement of mine is sarcasm. I am making fun of all the Tinsley haters who have decided he has a bad additude because every once in a while when they show him on the bench he is not smiling. Never mind that we have seen that same look from other great malcontents like Shaq, J.O., Tim Duncan while on the bench they can clearly see into Tinsley's heart and see that he is a hater.

Kegboy
03-01-2006, 09:48 AM
This must be the calm before the storm. I can't believe this thread isn't 4 pages by now.

I'll get things started.

AJ - "Tinsley should start"
Tins - "AJ should start"
Cabbage - "I don't know why that idiot's never started me, and I don't care anymore. Just as long as I get my minutes."

:runout:

penn13
03-01-2006, 09:49 AM
"I have no idea what's going to happen," said Jasikevicius, who likely will be the third point guard when Tinsley returns. "I've been a backup ever since I've been here. I've been Jamaal's backup, then when Jamaal went down, I was A.J.'s backup. I don't know what my role is going to be. It doesn't matter who is starting, I'm the backup. That's one thing that was very strange. At the same time, that's the way it works."

:violin:

Kegboy
03-01-2006, 09:54 AM
:violin:
Now, now, I'm sure that's just the evil :wells: making **** up again.

FrenchConnection
03-01-2006, 09:57 AM
This must be the calm before the storm. I can't believe this thread isn't 4 pages by now.

I'll get things started.

AJ - "Tinsley should start"
Tins - "AJ should start"
Cabbage - "I don't know why that idiot's never started me, and I don't care anymore. Just as long as I get my minutes."

:runout:

Cabbage - "I don't know why that idiot's never started me, and I don't care anymore. Just as long as I get my paycheck." This is not a slight on him, but rather on the situation in which the Pacers put him. He sounds really frustrated. I think that either he or RC has to go by the start of next season.

On a side note, I think that it is rather funny that the team produced all those face shirts for a player that they ended up using as a third string PG. It is like being able to buy a Eddie Gill face shirt.

p.s. Before any of our Lithuanian friends attack me (don't want to go there again...), I blame the team for not getting RC's input before signing the guy. This is a bad situation that would be much worse if Saras did not have enough class to not make a really big deal out of it.

Diamond Dave
03-01-2006, 09:58 AM
"I have no idea what's going to happen," said Jasikevicius, who likely will be the third point guard when Tinsley returns. "I've been a backup ever since I've been here. I've been Jamaal's backup, then when Jamaal went down, I was A.J.'s backup. I don't know what my role is going to be. It doesn't matter who is starting, I'm the backup. That's one thing that was very strange. At the same time, that's the way it works."

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Sounds to me like Saras was bamboozled. I'm beginning to think that Bird lured him over here with the idea of him starting.

Probably went something like this...

LB: Hey Runi, how are things going?

Saras: Well pretty good actually. I've been thinking about the rest of my career and I might be ready to make the jump to the NBA.

LB: Really thats great!

Saras: Yeah, my friend Zydrunas plays in Cleveland. I've also heard that they have a new young offensive powerhouse at the wing positions. As a guy who likes to set up the offense, I could really have some success having such a good post player and wing player with me.

LB: Thats true, however I'm not sure how much you'll get to play with those two. I hear that Cleveland is pretty happy about their point guard position. They'd probably put you at the bottom and see if you could work your way up. That could take a couple of seasons.

Saras: Do you think so? I mean I talked with their coach Mike Brow...

LB: I'm quite familiar with their coach. In fact he used to coach here in Indiana. Let's just say that he was our "assistant" for a reason..hehehe.

Saras: Well that murkies up the water. Hmmm....

LB: Well tell ya what Runi, I'd like you to consider the Indiana Pacers. We have one of the best post scorers in the game, and we have a wing player who has won Defensive Player of the Year and averages around 20 points per game.

Saras: Well what about your point guards?

LB: I can't garuntee anything per se, but lets put it this way. Our starter is more than injury prone. In fact its becoming quite the burden, and honestly I'm not sure if he is going to work out here. And our backup has never started for team he has ever played for. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but your a three-time champ, MVP, gold medal winning caliber player, right? If I were you, I'd like my chances.

Saras: Yeah, that sounds great! Oh and I'd get to keep my current number right?

LB: Oh probably, I can't remember all the numbers we have.





Basically, I don't expect one of these three back next year. All of them are too good to be third string pg's, and conversly too bad/too injury prone to be starters.

Black Sox
03-01-2006, 10:10 AM
Saras should start. The team plays much better with him on the court. If he averaged around 30 minutes he would be in the mid teens in scoring and around 7 or 8 assists per game. He gets everyone involved.

penn13
03-01-2006, 10:22 AM
Saras should start. The team plays much better with him on the court. If he averaged around 30 minutes he would be in the mid teens in scoring and around 7 or 8 assists per game. He gets everyone involved.

Including the opposition's fast break offense...

PacerMan
03-01-2006, 10:22 AM
Saras should start. The team plays much better with him on the court. If he averaged around 30 minutes he would be in the mid teens in scoring and around 7 or 8 assists per game. He gets everyone involved.

Yes he does. Unfortunately his man will have rung up 25.........

Hicks
03-01-2006, 10:25 AM
Yes he does. Unfortunately his man will have rung up 25.........

And to that I can always say: As opposed to that defensive stud Jamaal Tinsley.

Anthem
03-01-2006, 10:25 AM
"It's a good thing that A.J. is playing well," Tinsley said. "Right now, how he's playing, I don't even want to come back and start. I think he's been playing good and he's doing a great job for us. I just want to come back and help the team. The chemistry is going good. That's my thing."

"My point on it is, Jamaal is definitely the starter," said Johnson, who began the season as the third point guard. "Jamaal is definitely the more talented of the three. There's no question about that. At the same time, we have to see where he's at since he's been out for a long period of time. You have to do what's best for the team. If that means starting him or bringing him off the bench, that's a decision for Rick to make.
Interesting that Tinsley and AJ both spent their time talking about the other guy. That speaks of really good chemistry.

Sarunas spent his time talking about himself. But that's probably an improvement over him talking about other people.

fifo
03-01-2006, 10:58 AM
I think that either he or RC has to go by the start of next season.

I pretty much agree to everything you wrote.
IMO Saras did not get the chance he deserves, and obviously RC doesn't think much of him. This is really sad to me, as someone who believes Saras has a lot more to offer for NBA fans.

I wish he'll be traded.

ChicagoJ
03-01-2006, 11:03 AM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060301/SPORTS04/603010470/1088

Who is to start at point?
When Tinsley returns, Johnson's strong play will make it an issue

By Mike Wells
<SCRIPT language=JavaScript><!--document.write(''+'mike.wells'+'@'+'indystar.com'+ ' (http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/+)');//--></SCRIPT>mike.wells@indystar.com (mike.wells@indystar.com)

Anthony Johnson says Jamaal Tinsley is the starter. Tinsley says Johnson should continue to start. Sarunas Jasikevicius, the third point guard in the group, just wants to play, anywhere.
<!-- ARTICLE SIDEBAR -->-snip-

Good thing he's had such a great attitude about playing SG. :unimpress

Meanwhile, Fred Jones has solidified the backup SG position.

Hope he doesn't get any splinters from sitting on the pine. :shrug:


BTW, I'm LMAO at Ragnar. Great post.

Raskolnikov
03-01-2006, 11:04 AM
I wish he'll be traded.
I'd still wait and see what happens in the rest of the season and in the playoffs before making such a bold statement.

Jon Theodore
03-01-2006, 11:06 AM
I think Saras' back injury that is RARELY talked about is affecting his play a lot. The first ten games or so as a Pacer, he was living up to the hype and that was before he was even acclimated to his surroundings.

Now I don't have much confidence in his shot and I think his injuries and how he is not used to the rigorous NBA schedule have worn on him. I still feel like Saras will impress a lot of people his 2nd year, something he hasn't done a lot of yet.

I think Saras will reach his peak in his third year, then get a contract he doesn't deserve from a lower tier team. But i like our chances. I still think signing Saras was a good move, better than picking up Dale Davis thats for sure.

Keeping Stojakovic really needs to be our number one priority over EVERYTHING. If we lose Stojakovic....well I don't even want to think about that.

Regardless, I think Saras struggles recently are relative and I don't think it's fair to evaluate him based on that. Remember the Saras when he first came here, his shot was AUTOMATIC. He will get that back...maybe not this year. Expect a different player next year is all i'm saying.

fifo
03-01-2006, 11:08 AM
I'd still wait and see what happens in the rest of the season and in the playoffs before making such a bold statement.

Don't expect him to become a starter when Tins returns...
Also don't expect A.J to stop playing when Tins returns...
What you can expect is some kind of time sharing between the p.gs that will surely not allow Saras to hold the keys. In such a context, you just can not expect him to flourish. You know this player.

Diamond Dave
03-01-2006, 11:13 AM
I still think signing Saras was a good move, better than picking up Dale Davis thats for sure.



I don't know about that. I'd bet money that Dale Davis would start at center right now if he were here.

And judging how he plays against us in the short time that the Pistons play him, it would be the right decision.

Anthem
03-01-2006, 11:18 AM
I don't know about that. I'd bet money that Dale Davis would start at center right now if he were here.

And judging how he plays against us in the short time that the Pistons play him, it would be the right decision.
Yeah, I can go with that.

It means Freddy would have gotten time at the point this season, though. Unless we thought Gill would be playing extended minutes.

Raskolnikov
03-01-2006, 11:24 AM
I don't know about that. I'd bet money that Dale Davis would start at center right now if he were here.

And judging how he plays against us in the short time that the Pistons play him, it would be the right decision.
I don't think it would've been the right decision long term. Dale would've taken Dave's PT. And Dave's a big part of the Pacers' future IMO. He needs to play.

Black Sox
03-01-2006, 11:27 AM
its funny how people praise a player and then he has a some bad games and all of a sudden he should be traded, i.e. jax, jones, saras.

Saras is a better player then AJ. Tins is by far the best pg on our team when healthy.

Jermaniac
03-01-2006, 11:42 AM
And to that I can always say: As opposed to that defensive stud Jamaal Tinsley.Jamaal is light years ahead of Jasuciakldsajdhsajdsabdbnasbdm in defense and all around basketball. We didnt need him before the season and we dont need him now, should have gave Dale his money. He is a so called shooter that cant shoot, and doesnt do us no good, I hope he gets mad and goes back to Europe.


And look at Tinsley pouting, wanting AJ to start. What a *******, this clearly proves that all he cares about is himself.

Mushmouth
03-01-2006, 11:42 AM
Not even close. AJ is way better, esp. at the PG position..

100%

Saras has trouble getting the ball up the court against pressure, and is a significant dropoff defensively from Tinsley, nowhere near AJ. Perhaps he sees the court better than either, passes very well, and is a top flight shooter... but the first two negatives are too much to overcome for a NBA PG.
I think he's getting the minutes he should be getting. Hopefully he'll still have some trade value this offseason, because he's not the answer at PG for the Pacers.

Jermaniac
03-01-2006, 11:44 AM
Not even close. AJ is way better, esp. at the PG position..Damn right, AJ is our best defender at the 1, he can get in the lane and he can make the jumpshot. He is a better shooter then Sarunas too, the guy is supposed to be a shooter but he cant shoot, dont do us any good.

Jermaniac
03-01-2006, 11:49 AM
Interesting that Tinsley and AJ both spent their time talking about the other guy. That speaks of really good chemistry.

Sarunas spent his time talking about himself. But that's probably an improvement over him talking about other people.The guy should be gone after the season, people say Jack and Tins ruin chemistry but they are not the ones ****ting on their teammates everytime a mic is put in front of them. Like Jay said He doesnt like playing the 2, ohh thats nice. I wonder how he will like waving the towel next to Eddie Gill.

Arcadian
03-01-2006, 12:00 PM
I hope Saras turns out for two reasons. Firstly, I want every pacer to do well. Secondly, I want him to do well so that I can believe that Bird has some eye for talent. I'm more than worried about Bird's abilities in that department.

As far as the comments I'd feel worse for Saras if he left out the talk.

BillS
03-01-2006, 12:07 PM
I am boggled by the people who seem to have expected Saras to step into the NBA and be a superstar.

I like the way he plays, I like his energy and attitude. However, he still has to learn how to adapt his playing style to the teammates he has on the floor. He has to learn how to communicate effectively. His liabilities in ball handling make it difficult for him to be the primary option bringing the ball up the floor. There is little question that he has hit something of the rookie wall, which isn't just a youth thing it's an internal rhythm of the season and (in many ways) a factor of Brain Overload at having to change too many things.

The last few games I've seen, AJ has clearly played better than Saras. Will that continue through next year? When Tinsley comes back will he be effective in this offense or will he hurt himself again?

Saras has been a huge help this year simply because of our constant injury situation at Point. While his supporters somehow believe he's been cheated out of a chance to show how he can be the Second Coming, the truth is that he is a highly competent but not consistently spectacular PG.

Unlike some, I've never worried about a player wanting an increase in playing time, especially one projected at some point to become a starter somewhere. We also need to remember that the media chooses what to quote, and while trying to summarize an issue through quotes will usually pick the statements that support the theme they are trying to show in their article. The person in question usually actually said what was quoted, but other context and remarks can't be shown due to space.

Black Sox
03-01-2006, 12:22 PM
100%

Saras has trouble getting the ball up the court against pressure, and is a significant dropoff defensively from Tinsley, nowhere near AJ. Perhaps he sees the court better than either, passes very well, and is a top flight shooter... but the first two negatives are too much to overcome for a NBA PG.
I think he's getting the minutes he should be getting. Hopefully he'll still have some trade value this offseason, because he's not the answer at PG for the Pacers.

I guess AJ doesn't have trouble getting the ball up the court. Well I guess he doesn't if you don't care that it takes him the full 8 seconds when pressured leaving 14 seconds by the time they actually set up. Anyone remember BOSTON?

fifo
03-01-2006, 12:30 PM
I am boggled by the people who seem to have expected Saras to step into the NBA and be a superstar.

I like the way he plays, I like his energy and attitude. However, he still has to learn how to adapt his playing style to the teammates he has on the floor. He has to learn how to communicate effectively. His liabilities in ball handling make it difficult for him to be the primary option bringing the ball up the floor. There is little question that he has hit something of the rookie wall, which isn't just a youth thing it's an internal rhythm of the season and (in many ways) a factor of Brain Overload at having to change too many things.

The last few games I've seen, AJ has clearly played better than Saras. Will that continue through next year? When Tinsley comes back will he be effective in this offense or will he hurt himself again?

Saras has been a huge help this year simply because of our constant injury situation at Point.

Unlike some, I've never worried about a player wanting an increase in playing time, especially one projected at some point to become a starter somewhere. We also need to remember that the media chooses what to quote, and while trying to summarize an issue through quotes will usually pick the statements that support the theme they are trying to show in their article. The person in question usually actually said what was quoted, but other context and remarks can't be shown due to space.

That was a great post and I agreed to every word, except:



While his supporters somehow believe he's been cheated out of a chance to show how he can be the Second Coming, the truth is that he is a highly competent but not consistently spectacular PG.


How can say anything about his consistency when he didn't get the chance to 'own the keys' for even a few games?

I know many say - you don't give the keys to a Euro-Rookie, and I can relate to that, but at the same time the same people say the guy can not hold the keys cause he's just not good enough.

Saras ain't no ordinary Rookie. I'm sorry, but this his is career prime-time, and the only way for him to adjust to NBA game is to play a lot and have the keys. Sure - he will make mistakes, and Indy might suffer for a few games.

Currently AJ is playing great ball, and I think Saras has missed the opportunity created by JT's injury.

I don't think he can become a team leader this year. The current roster & coach makes me think it is highly improbable for next year too. I don't think he can afford years of learning.

Lithfan
03-01-2006, 12:51 PM
Cabbage - "I don't know why that idiot's never started me, and I don't care anymore. Just as long as I get my paycheck." This is not a slight on him, but rather on the situation in which the Pacers put him. He sounds really frustrated. I think that either he or RC has to go by the start of next season.

On a side note, I think that it is rather funny that the team produced all those face shirts for a player that they ended up using as a third string PG. It is like being able to buy a Eddie Gill face shirt.

p.s. Before any of our Lithuanian friends attack me (don't want to go there again...), I blame the team for not getting RC's input before signing the guy. This is a bad situation that would be much worse if Saras did not have enough class to not make a really big deal out of it.

I like that attitude French.

That means we did something here. We are the force. :laugh:

Yes, he seems flustrated, but he plays bad lately so its his fault.

Lithfan
03-01-2006, 12:59 PM
The guy should be gone after the season, people say Jack and Tins ruin chemistry but they are not the ones ****ting on their teammates everytime a mic is put in front of them. Like Jay said He doesnt like playing the 2, ohh thats nice. I wonder how he will like waving the towel next to Eddie Gill.

Yes! Yes! Lets trade Jermaine!

Its him you are talking about, right?

PacerMan
03-01-2006, 01:07 PM
And to that I can always say: As opposed to that defensive stud Jamaal Tinsley.


to which I can always reply: compared to Saras, Tinsley IS a defensive stud.

PacerMan
03-01-2006, 01:09 PM
:rolleyes:
\

Don't see anything to roll eyes about. He's dead on right.

CableKC
03-01-2006, 01:10 PM
AJ....ever the diplomat.

Although all this is based off of how well Tinsley ( and the rest of the team ) adjusts to the new offense.....in the end ( whether it is the 2nd game that he comes back...or the start of the playoffs )...I think that Carlisle will "default" to his standard plan of starting his best PG....Tinsley. But given how well the offense runs with AJ running the point...I would hope that we can pretty much split it down the middle......maybe 26/22 with Tinsley starting and AJ backing up the PG spot. In this case...Sarunas would likely get 3rd string minuts at the PG and SG spot.

PacerMan
03-01-2006, 01:12 PM
I don't think it would've been the right decision long term. Dale would've taken Dave's PT. And Dave's a big part of the Pacers' future IMO. He needs to play.

Yep, absolutely no point in being marginally better (this year) playing a 35(?)y/o center when you've got a rising young buck sitting there. ANd we all SAW last year that DD can't sustain those efforts over a bunch of games. He's playoff insurance, plain and simple.

Evan_The_Dude
03-01-2006, 01:17 PM
We're damned no matter what. AJ and Saras can't play the 2 effectively, AJ plays his best as a starter, Tinsley is better than AJ and Saras and should start, and if we trade Saras in the offseason it's a risk if Tinsley or AJ get hurt next season.

Keep all three and all we have to worry about is all of them making the most of the minutes they get. I see us having these three guys as a real advantage because they all play a different type of game and, can give us a different look according to the game situation. This type of thing matters in the playoffs.

I also think Saras will get his shooting touch back and will become extremely important when J.O. comes back. Tinsley isn't the best shooter, and I think AJ is just on a streak, but he isn't that great of a shooter either. Playing Saras with Peja, SJax, and JO during the playoffs would create nightmares for the opposition because they would have hell to pay for doubleteaming JO.

I'm all over the place with this issue. I just say as long as none of the point guards are demanding a trade and all are willing to deal with the situation thrown at them, then we make sure all three stay here.

Lithfan
03-01-2006, 01:19 PM
I have to admit one thing. Something happened to him. May be its because he is getting married or because things dont open up for him for the first time in his life or may be it something else but....

...He never allowed himself to talk in this way. In his words was sarcastic criticism to his coach. I don't think it's professional and he never allowed it previously.

One of things he said to european press... T.O. and dont be angry, the press naturally asks him questions about differences and want to show that Euroleague is better than NBA at least in something.... He said that players allow themselfs much more than in Europe. He was really suprised, talked about players (no names) not coming to the practice because they don't feel like it, not listening to the coach directions during the game etc.

He was really a good boy before the NBA. Someone gave here an example and I saw it in person, how coach humiliated him by not letting him play in the important game while his falks flew to Tel-Aviv especially to see him play. And he said nothing and played well next time.

I think all this Artest thing corrupted him.

Hopefully something will happen that will shake him up. Because he will not get too far with this attitude.

And saying this, I have also to say that he was never given the full chance he deserves and its Rick mistake. But I can afford myself to say that and he not.

Since86
03-01-2006, 01:37 PM
Yes! Yes! Lets trade Jermaine!

Its him you are talking about, right?

Now you've done it.......

I might have to get my popcorn out here pretty soon.

Hicks
03-01-2006, 01:53 PM
So a guy who can't shoot can go on a 60% from THREE hot streak?

And now I read he has a back injury? That's bound to have an impact on his game. Ask Scot Pollard what a bad back does. Or Baron Davis.

CableKC
03-01-2006, 01:57 PM
Basically, I don't expect one of these three back next year. All of them are too good to be third string pg's, and conversly too bad/too injury prone to be starters.

I can probably guess how most of you will respond.......but unless how Tinsley this new offense is light-years ahead of and significantly better then then one that AJ or Sarunas runs.....then I think Tinsley should be moved this offseason. Its not that AJ or Sarunas is better then him......individually Tinsley is the best PG of the bunch. Its Tinsley's tendency to get injured and the subsequent ripple-effect that it has on team chemistry, the PG rotation and how the team / offense is run that I am concerned about.

Just like not knowing when the Artest-time-bomb would go off.......Tinsley's tendency to get injured during the regular season is a "variable" that I want eliminated from the roster. I think it does affect team chemistry when it comes to establishing stability at one of the most important positions on the team....the starting PG spot.

NOTE - I don't think that we can apply the same logic ( get rid of injury-prone players ) to JONeal despite his history of injuries. We don't have 2 other solid backup PFs that can easily step in to fill his shoes for extended periods of time.

Although Sarunas defense maybe as pourous as a wet paper towel....in terms of how well he runs the point.....the only thing I do know is that AJ is a better fit for the Pacers then Sarunas is....but I really don't think that we have a very good idea of how well he can do due to the continual changes in the guard rotation. With the way that he has been used in the lineup ( from playing backup SG minutes to switching to the 2nd or 3rd PG option )...I can't make an honest assessment of his abilities. I don't want to give up on him until I am absolutely sure that he is not a good fit for the Pacers.

I would much rather have an reliable AJ/Sarunas PG rotation then one with Tinsley where I have no idea when he will get injured next. Having Tinsley on the roster neccesitates the need for a very solid 3rd backup PG. At some point in the season, you know that our #2 and #3 PGs will likely be the #1 and #2 PGs in the rotation.

BillS
03-01-2006, 02:05 PM
How can say anything about his consistency when he didn't get the chance to 'own the keys' for even a few games?

I know many say - you don't give the keys to a Euro-Rookie, and I can relate to that, but at the same time the same people say the guy can not hold the keys cause he's just not good enough.

Saras ain't no ordinary Rookie. I'm sorry, but this his is career prime-time, and the only way for him to adjust to NBA game is to play a lot and have the keys. Sure - he will make mistakes, and Indy might suffer for a few games.


Well, this is exactly what I'm talking about regarding many of Saras' supporters.

While I'm OK with Saras saying he'd like more playing time, I really can't believe the fans who think that if he isn't getting more consistent at 20 minutes a game he'll somehow suddenly start to shine at 30 or 40 or because he starts instead of coming off the bench. That's blindness to the realities of the game.

If Saras wanted the keys he should have gone to a team with no point guard rather than one that had the position covered. A team with options who hasn't written off the season for rebuilding is not going to decide to start rookies when other options are working for them, especially when spot minutes don't show a huge upside for making that kind of decision.

Knucklehead Warrior
03-01-2006, 02:19 PM
A team with options who hasn't written off the season for rebuilding is not going to decide to start rookies when other options are working for them, especially when spot minutes don't show a huge upside for making that kind of decision.
Yep. Isn't that the way life works? You prove you can perform at this level, better than anyone else, and maybe we'll give you a promotion.

penn13
03-01-2006, 02:23 PM
A team with options who hasn't written off the season for rebuilding is not going to decide to start rookies when other options are working for them, especially when spot minutes don't show a huge upside for making that kind of decision.

:thumbsup: Right on BillS.

If Saras is going to ever live up to expectations in the NBA, it is going to be a journey. I have excepted that and I am willing to wait 2-3 years. RC can't play Saras just to get him minutes and sacrifice the rest of the team.

rexnom
03-01-2006, 02:44 PM
One thing though, we do need a fourth pg. Or some change here because Eddie Gill just isn't good enough and Tins does get injured...Saras was a good signing for that exact reason. Without him we wouldn't have anything once AJ went out. He is competent. Not a star. But competent. I don't know if he'll improve but I'll say this: if he really was brilliant then he would show it in limited time. How does AJ go from not playing to slightly playing to stud in no time? How does DG become so effective that Carlisle just can't take him out anymore come 4th quarter? Is there anyone who doubts that a good player doesn't impact the game in even the shortest time on the court. It's not Carlisle fault that Saras doesn't play as much, it's Saras's fault. You play your way into the rotation. It's a fact. Saras doesn't deserve special treatment...

rexnom
03-01-2006, 02:53 PM
WHAT?

EDDIE GILL IS THE ANSWER FOR OUR PG SITUATION :devil:

As long as he gets around 30-40 minutes...as a backup, no. Then he only gets like 25-30 minutes and he's surprisingly ineffective...:devil:

Peck
03-01-2006, 03:39 PM
You guys can laugh at me all you want but I have zero problem with Ed Gill.

He is what he is & with a team like ours we need professionals who don't cause trouble, support the team & are ready whenever they are called on.

In fact I'll go one better than that.

If A.J. were the starter, Saras was not on the team & Tins were injured (in other words what we had last season) then I have no problem at all with Ed Gill being the backup with Freddy splitting time with him.

Do I want Ed to start? No.

Do I think he's a great player? No

Do I even think he's a good player? Not really

But he can get the ball up court, he can defend fairly well & he doesn't think he is more than he is.

I think Ed Gill gets a bad rap on here.

Peck
03-01-2006, 04:00 PM
I have to admit one thing. Something happened to him. May be its because he is getting married or because things dont open up for him for the first time in his life or may be it something else but....

...He never allowed himself to talk in this way. In his words was sarcastic criticism to his coach. I don't think it's professional and he never allowed it previously.

One of things he said to european press... T.O. and dont be angry, the press naturally asks him questions about differences and want to show that Euroleague is better than NBA at least in something.... He said that players allow themselfs much more than in Europe. He was really suprised, talked about players (no names) not coming to the practice because they don't feel like it, not listening to the coach directions during the game etc.

He was really a good boy before the NBA. Someone gave here an example and I saw it in person, how coach humiliated him by not letting him play in the important game while his falks flew to Tel-Aviv especially to see him play. And he said nothing and played well next time.

I think all this Artest thing corrupted him.
Hopefully something will happen that will shake him up. Because he will not get too far with this attitude.

And saying this, I have also to say that he was never given the full chance he deserves and its Rick mistake. But I can afford myself to say that and he not.


I think there is a lot more to this than what we want to believe.

About 2-3 weeks ago I came to the conclusion that I was probably being to hard on Saras because let's be honest he came into one of the most bitter, volatile & poisonous atmosphere's that have ever existed.

So when he say's players take to much for themselves I have to always take that into consideration.

He only knows the NBA from our locker room & let's be honest our locker room sucked at the beginning of this season.

So we have to give him a little bit of a break.

rexnom
03-01-2006, 04:08 PM
If that post was in response to my [joke] of a post, I have a word word response for you: sarcasm.

As for your post, I agree with you, except for Freddie running the "1". I never again in my life want to see Fred run the 1.

The same goes for me. I don't think we're giving Gill a bad rap. In fact, I do agree he is an uber-pro but let's face it, the man isn't a backup on a championship contender. If that's where we wanna be then our backups need to be of AJ's caliber, that's all I'm saying. Also, Freddie at the point...no me gusta...

Lithfan
03-01-2006, 04:32 PM
He only knows the NBA from our locker room & let's be honest our locker room sucked at the beginning of this season.

So we have to give him a little bit of a break.

The problem is that Saras has not enough talent so succeed with this attitude. He has to be very positive and motivated. He needs to be shaken and may be Tins return will do it.

In any case someone will get hurt when Tins returns.

The question is when and for how long he returns. :devil:

Tim
03-01-2006, 04:55 PM
I think Saras' back injury that is RARELY talked about is affecting his play a lot. The first ten games or so as a Pacer, he was living up to the hype and that was before he was even acclimated to his surroundings.

Now I don't have much confidence in his shot and I think his injuries and how he is not used to the rigorous NBA schedule have worn on him. I still feel like Saras will impress a lot of people his 2nd year, something he hasn't done a lot of yet.

I think Saras will reach his peak in his third year, then get a contract he doesn't deserve from a lower tier team. But i like our chances. I still think signing Saras was a good move, better than picking up Dale Davis thats for sure.

Keeping Stojakovic really needs to be our number one priority over EVERYTHING. If we lose Stojakovic....well I don't even want to think about that.

Regardless, I think Saras struggles recently are relative and I don't think it's fair to evaluate him based on that. Remember the Saras when he first came here, his shot was AUTOMATIC. He will get that back...maybe not this year. Expect a different player next year is all i'm saying.

If we lose Peja, so what we have Danger. Given an off summer where he will have a better understanding of the team's playbook we will be our next Al Harrington, do not trade him :) .

fifo
03-01-2006, 05:10 PM
Well, this is exactly what I'm talking about regarding many of Saras' supporters.

I don't like these generalizations (even if they are true) :(



While I'm OK with Saras saying he'd like more playing time, I really can't believe the fans who think that if he isn't getting more consistent at 20 minutes a game he'll somehow suddenly start to shine at 30 or 40 or because he starts instead of coming off the bench. That's blindness to the realities of the game.

This is not about number of minutes. This is about a point guard getting coach's trust, and legitimacy to make errors. Look what this has done for A.J lately.



If Saras wanted the keys he should have gone to a team with no point guard rather than one that had the position covered. A team with options who hasn't written off the season for rebuilding is not going to decide to start rookies when other options are working for them, especially when spot minutes don't show a huge upside for making that kind of decision.

Yep. He made a mistake. I think he took his chances with a competitive team, but Indy's locker room was a bad choice for him.

Rytas_Jega
03-01-2006, 05:11 PM
Now I don't have much confidence in his shot and I think his injuries and how he is not used to the rigorous NBA schedule have worn on him.



Guess what Šaras doesn't like about European basketball?

11 psychologically difficult months without any rest with 2 hard trainings a day.

He said that during an interview to "Lietuvos Rytas TV" journalist at NBA All-Star weekend. It was shown 2-3 hours ago on TV3 (Lithuania).

SwissExpress
03-01-2006, 05:50 PM
This discussion is getting boring. Half of a season is more than enough.

Maybe we can add a third SF (with ability to start) for a change?

rexnom
03-01-2006, 05:56 PM
Personally I think our only glaring hole is no real killer instinct in the 4th quarter. We must be the only team in the NBA with this much playoff experience that yet struggles in the closing minutes.

Anthem
03-01-2006, 06:19 PM
I guess AJ doesn't have trouble getting the ball up the court. Well I guess he doesn't if you don't care that it takes him the full 8 seconds when pressured leaving 14 seconds by the time they actually set up. Anyone remember BOSTON?
I figured somebody would respond, so I left it. But nobody did.

I do remember Boston. They bothered AJ, but they would have destroyed Sarunas.

What's your point?

Anthem
03-01-2006, 06:24 PM
Guess what Šaras doesn't like about European basketball?

11 psychologically difficult months without any rest with 2 hard trainings a day.

He said that during an interview to "Lietuvos Rytas TV" journalist at NBA All-Star weekend. It was shown 2-3 hours ago on TV3 (Lithuania).
He's publicly said that the NBA schedule is hard to get used to, so I'm not sure what this is. He appears to be talking out both sides of his mouth.

Jermaniac
03-01-2006, 06:25 PM
Yes! Yes! Lets trade Jermaine!

Its him you are talking about, right?I'm not talking about the Great One, he never talks about his teammates like that and he is the team leader, Sarunas is a rookie and he talks about them all the damn time.

rexnom
03-01-2006, 06:25 PM
He's publicly said that the NBA schedule is hard to get used to, so I'm not sure what this is. He appears to be talking out both sides of his mouth.

Also, is he implying that the Euro schedule is tougher than the NBA schedule? Because if anything, I could see an argument being made for Saras hitting the rookie wall.

Lithfan
03-01-2006, 08:17 PM
I'm not talking about the Great One, he never talks about his teammates like that and he is the team leader, Sarunas is a rookie and he talks about them all the damn time.

People just don't understand my sarcasm lately.

All I'm saying is that your gREAT oNE has some drawbacks too. And a lot of people noticed team plays better without him. Not to mention his stupid comments. But lets not get into it.

Lets make an agreement. You are not accusing my Great One for nothing and I'm leaving J.O. and his maniac alone :D :laugh:

Anthem
03-01-2006, 09:07 PM
You guys can laugh at me all you want but I have zero problem with Ed Gill.

He is what he is & with a team like ours we need professionals who don't cause trouble, support the team & are ready whenever they are called on.

In fact I'll go one better than that.

If A.J. were the starter, Saras was not on the team & Tins were injured (in other words what we had last season) then I have no problem at all with Ed Gill being the backup with Freddy splitting time with him.

Do I want Ed to start? No.

Do I think he's a great player? No

Do I even think he's a good player? Not really

But he can get the ball up court, he can defend fairly well & he doesn't think he is more than he is.

I think Ed Gill gets a bad rap on here.
I felt the need to quote this. No comment necessary.

ChicagoJ
03-01-2006, 09:11 PM
-snip-
And a lot of people noticed team plays better without him.

And a lot of people have noticed it is because of how Rick coaches when JO is healthy/ available and has nothing to do with JO. So if you're blaming JO for following his coach's gameplan (and unfortunately sometimes it is hard enough for us to interpret our fellow posters for which English is their first language) that's really, really misguided.


Not to mention his stupid comments. But lets not get into it.


What stupid comments? The racism ones... okay - he made himself look bad on those. His trash talking toward the Pistons - nothing really wrong with those although I would prefer he not say them, just beat them and point to the scoreboard. What else? JO and Croshere had a little tiff earlier in the season, but man, that lockerroom was one ****edup place, so that can be excused. You're right, there isn't really anything to get into. No wonder you don't want to get into it. :D

Kaufman
03-01-2006, 09:31 PM
I think we'll need to address the PG position this year in the draft.

Lithfan
03-01-2006, 09:39 PM
And a lot of people have noticed it is because of how Rick coaches when JO is healthy/ available and has nothing to do with JO. So if you're blaming JO for following his coach's gameplan (and unfortunately sometimes it is hard enough for us to interpret our fellow posters for which English is their first language) that's really, really misguided.



What stupid comments? The racism ones... okay - he made himself look bad on those. His trash talking toward the Pistons - nothing really wrong with those although I would prefer he not say them, just beat them and point to the scoreboard. What else? JO and Croshere had a little tiff earlier in the season, but man, that lockerroom was one ****edup place, so that can be excused. You're right, there isn't really anything to get into. No wonder you don't want to get into it. :D



You are telling me things I didn't know :)

Actually I was saying this only to make Jer-ac to stop trashing on Saras.

D-BONE
03-01-2006, 10:08 PM
Well, I think AJ should be the starter once JT gets back. Perhaps one of the other PGs eventually (re)claims the top spot based on their own play or AJ slumps. I think we all have to admit that Saras's play tonight against the Wiz was great. So maybe having all three of these guys isn't so bad after all. I don't know what happens down the road once everybody's back, but I don't like the idea of AJ, DG, JF, SP and DH seeing less PT based on their current play. Somebody will probably go down so maybe things will work themselves out. Complicated. I'll enjoy right now that all are playing together and contributing and we're winning and let the chips fall where they may.