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View Full Version : Comparing Peja's impact and Ron's impact post trade.



Unclebuck
02-17-2006, 08:52 PM
This is from the Kings fan forum. But I thought it was very interesting and worth bringing over here. No I don't really care much about how Ron's doing with the Kings, but it was interesting to read comments about the Pacers. Kings fan forum has a number of good posters.

I would encourage you to click on the link and read some of the comments

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10701


Now that the all-star break is upon us, I thought it would be interesting to look at how Ron and Peja have performed on their new teams. From observing the team stats, it looks like the trade was good for both the Kings and Pacers.

Once Ron gains back his stamina and consistency with his shot, watch out.


Peja:
G: 7
Min: 34.6
FGM-FGA: 7.0-14.8 >> 47.1%
3PTM-3PTA: 2.9-6.9 >> 41.7%
FTM-FTA: 2.1-2.6 >> 83.3%
Off Rb: 1.6
Def Rb: 5.4
Tot Rb: 7.0
Ast: 1.9
TO: 1.4
Stl: 1.0
Blk: 0.3
PF: 2.4
PPG: 19.0


Ron:

G: 11
Min: 38.9
FGM-FGA: 6.8-17.8 >> 38.3%
3PTM-3PTA: 1.4-5.3 >> 25.9%
FTM-FTA: 3.1-4.0 >> 77.3%
Off Rb: 1.5
Def Rb: 4.5
Tot Rb: 6.1
Ast: 3.6
TO: 2.0
Stl: 2.9
Blk: 0.5
PF: 3.3
PPG: 18.1

Pacers without Peja:
W-L: 22-21
PPG: 93.0
PPG allowed: 91.7
Differential: +1.3

Pacers with Peja:
W-L: 5-2
PPG: 94.4
PPG allowed: 83.0
Differential: +11.4


Kings without Ron:
W-L: 18-24
PPG: 99.1
PPG allowed: 100.2
Differential: -1.1


Kings with Ron:
W-L: 6-5
PPG: 97.1
PPG allowed: 93
Differential: +4.1

Slick Pinkham
02-17-2006, 09:03 PM
We all knew there would be a "honeymoon period" of good behavior by Ron. The question is whether it last a month, a half season, or maybe a whole year.

With Peja, it's only going to get better as he adjusts to the system and the system adjusts to him.

I hope people don't use comparative stats to forever judge this trade.

If Ron had stayed here he definitely would NOT have kept himself under control, so this trade from the Pacers perspective should be judjed not by what Ron gives Sacramento relative to what Peja gives us, but by what Peja gives us relative to the alternative trades (Maggette, Pietrus, ??) we could have had. Also judge the trade from the Pacer perspective by gauging the unity and cohesiveness of the Pacer team relative to the perpetual chaos that keeping Ron would have guaranteed.


The stats make it look like a win-win so far, both teams benefitted from the scenery change.

Anthem
02-17-2006, 09:53 PM
The games before the trade aren't really equivilent... The Pacers were without Ron AND Peja.

Harmonica
02-18-2006, 12:24 AM
Has Ron sold his house in Indy yet? Anyone know?

kellogg
02-18-2006, 01:05 AM
We all knew there would be a "honeymoon period" of good behavior by Ron. The question is whether it last a month, a half season, or maybe a whole year.

With Peja, it's only going to get better as he adjusts to the system and the system adjusts to him.

I hope people don't use comparative stats to forever judge this trade.

If Ron had stayed here he definitely would NOT have kept himself under control, so this trade from the Pacers perspective should be judjed not by what Ron gives Sacramento relative to what Peja gives us, but by what Peja gives us relative to the alternative trades (Maggette, Pietrus, ??) we could have had. Also judge the trade from the Pacer perspective by gauging the unity and cohesiveness of the Pacer team relative to the perpetual chaos that keeping Ron would have guaranteed.


The stats make it look like a win-win so far, both teams benefitted from the scenery change.

What a great post.

The million-dollar question is not IF, but reallly WHEN Ron will implode...and if it will be a slow tortuous process for the Kings, or if it's just a major blowup.

Although I wasn't at all sold on Peja at first, his selfless play and the way the team has really come together has changed my mind. What is so very comforting to know is that the team will (barring injuries) only get better and more cohesive.

And unfortunately for Sacramento, irrespective of how well Artest plays now, or how much better shape he can be in in a few weeks, they will always be holding their breath...wondering if he'll get a flagrant foul, or if he'll smash a picture, or toss a camera, or something else. Just being able to go to a Pacers game now, or watch them on TV, and know that there won't be any drama and no 'issue' (short of an occasional T on Jax for yapping at the refs, or that occasional autistic moment Jax is prone to get)...Finally, finally, finally after 2-3 years, we can just watch basketball.

Wonder if DW and LB sent their supply of Maalox to the Maloofs?

rexnom
02-18-2006, 02:49 AM
I don't think those stats were misleading at all.

Ron Artest is playing well for us and is still getting his game back together. He's inspiring us to play better - and we ARE playing better.

Peja needed a new beginning and a system where he was comfortable. He's got that and is delivering. Good for him. He deserves it.

Both teams are sitting back, kicking their feet up and smiling at the deal ... and that's awesome. Both teams got something good out of the deal.

This is from the Kings forum and summarizes best what I think. I'd like to add the little caveat that Ron may ruin things for the Kings soon enough but untl he does...

Mourning
02-18-2006, 06:54 AM
Ron who? :huh:









;)

D-BONE
02-18-2006, 08:18 AM
What's folks' over-under on Ron's first Sac-town meltdown? I think he'll make it through this season on good behavior. I suppose if they make the playoffs and struggle at any point, the pressure might be enough to set him off.

aceace
02-18-2006, 08:42 AM
Ron who? :huh:

;)You know that guy that beat up all the Detroit fans in one single night.

aceace
02-18-2006, 08:43 AM
What's folks' over-under on Ron's first Sac-town meltdown? I think he'll make it through this season on good behavior. I suppose if they make the playoffs and struggle at any point, the pressure might be enough to set him off.I did a poll on it and most think it will be next year.

D-BONE
02-18-2006, 08:47 AM
I did a poll on it and most think it will be next year.

Makes sense. Endear yourself to the fanbase as a galvanizing force and get your game back up to speed. Then sock it to 'em in true big Ronnie style.

BlueNGold
02-18-2006, 09:06 AM
The games before the trade aren't really equivilent... The Pacers were without Ron AND Peja.
That was my thought. I also think, for those interested, it should be measured a year or two from now. If Ron becomes a long term model citizen, the Kings win the bet. If not, they lose.

I will take Peja and his sweet 40-45% 3pt shooting stroke, his rebounding, better than expected D and team play.

BlueNGold
02-18-2006, 09:12 AM
What's folks' over-under on Ron's first Sac-town meltdown? I think he'll make it through this season on good behavior. I suppose if they make the playoffs and struggle at any point, the pressure might be enough to set him off.
I think someone will try to push his buttons before the end of the season. This is particularly true if Sacremento becomes a more competitive team.

...and you can be sure the Pacers will try to shut him down...and that might be enough for him to lose it.

Bball
02-18-2006, 03:17 PM
All I know is I couldn't be any happier than with what we are seeing from Peja thus far.

Unselfish. Much more of an all-around player than I expected. A player that actually makes those around him better.

I think the team missed Artest while he sat on ice, but since Peja has landed here I don't know that we've missed Artest at all.

-Bball

KingsFan
02-18-2006, 05:16 PM
Here's an interesting quote
They've got a lot of guys playing well right now. Peja among them. Without him they would be screwed with Jermaine gone. But that's not the same thing as saying the rest of the guys are playing better because of Peja. Ironically, I think the rest of the guys may be playing better because of Ron. Or rather that the whole Ron thing is done.think you fans can answer better than us.

indytoad
02-18-2006, 05:30 PM
Makes sense. Endear yourself to the fanbase as a galvanizing force and get your game back up to speed. Then sock it to 'em in true big Ronnie style.

If the Kings are smart, they'll ride him to the end of this season, cross their fingers, hope he remains on his best behavior, then trade him to some suckers that think he's reformed himself in exchange for a superstar.

IndyToad
A man of one faces

Anthem
02-18-2006, 06:11 PM
Ironically, I think the rest of the guys may be playing better because of Ron. Or rather that the whole Ron thing is done.
Absolutely true. But that's been said on here several times... it's not like that guy was the first to notice it.

Moses
02-19-2006, 01:01 AM
Makes sense. Endear yourself to the fanbase as a galvanizing force and get your game back up to speed. Then sock it to 'em in true big Ronnie style.
That would seem about right. It's not a matter of if, but a matter of when. I give him a year tops before he does something crazy again.

VF21
02-19-2006, 02:55 AM
If I may inject one word of caution about Peja?

Yes, when healthy, he's great during the regular season. Unfortunately, he tends to do a disappearing act for the playoffs. I hope that doesn't carry over for him with the Pacers. The true test will be how he does under pressure. If he has to create his own shots, you're in trouble.

Hopefully it won't happen.

I know Ron is a ticking time bomb; we're just hoping there's a really long fuse.

If both players play up to their potential, this trade could go down in NBA history as the most mutually beneficial trade ever to be made.

I wish us both luck!!!

And a fond Good luck to Peja. His "Serbian lay-up" from about three feet past the arc will take your breath away. And when he's on, it's nothing but net. I've never heard a swoosh so sweet.

Want to make him smile? Make a sign that says "Napred Pedja!" That's "GO Peja" in Serbian.

SoupIsGood
02-19-2006, 11:31 AM
Peja may not be a great playoff performer, but it's not like Ron was either. He got completely owned by Prince in the Detroit series. At least Peja will play for us in the playoffs. :shrug:

Jermaniac
02-19-2006, 12:15 PM
All I know is I couldn't be any happier than with what we are seeing from Peja thus far.

Unselfish. Much more of an all-around player than I expected. A player that actually makes those around him better.


-BballThis guy is gold, every one of his posts has subliminal shots at Jermaine O'Neal

SoupIsGood
02-19-2006, 12:22 PM
Peja makes others better? :hmm:

Jermaniac
02-19-2006, 12:24 PM
Yeah he sure made the Kings better once Vlade and Webb left.

Bball
02-19-2006, 03:20 PM
This guy is gold, every one of his posts has subliminal shots at Jermaine O'Neal


You are making me want JO on another team more than anything JO has ever done... or not done...

I don't think it's JO's fault we continually misuse or overuse him. At least I certainly hope we don't have a coach and/or management that weak to totally let a player dictate his own terms to us.

OTOH, your blind loyalty to JO is tiresome.

FWIW: That was praise for Peja that you read. It had nothing to do with JO.

-Bball

Bball
02-19-2006, 03:22 PM
Peja makes others better? :hmm:

Do you watch the games?

That's a serious question if you don't think Peja positively affects (no thanks to Jay) the players around him on the Pacers.

Peja's ability to make plays, get his points, rebound, and do so unselfishly is a infectious and our record is a direct reflection of that. Even Sjax has looked better of late. There's a reason chemistry problems aren't mentioned in the same context they were before... even after Artest was already on ice.

-Bball

Bball
02-19-2006, 03:24 PM
Yeah he sure made the Kings better once Vlade and Webb left.

We're the Pacers, not the Kings. I don't give a flying ***k what happens or has happened with the Kings unless they are on the court with the Pacers.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
02-19-2006, 03:35 PM
Do you watch the games?

That's a serious question if you don't think Peja positively affects (no thanks to Jay) the players around him on the Pacers.

Peja's ability to make plays, get his points, rebound, and do so unselfishly is a infectious and our record is a direct reflection of that. Even Sjax has looked better of late. There's a reason chemistry problems aren't mentioned in the same context they were before... even after Artest was already on ice.

-Bball

:rolleyes:
You're describing a team that finally fits together. That is the reason they are playing well, not because Peja is some amazing player that makes those around him better. I give more credit to Rick than I do Peja for our good play.

Hicks
02-19-2006, 04:00 PM
:rolleyes:
You're describing a team that finally fits together. That is the reason they are playing well, not because Peja is some amazing player that makes those around him better. I give more credit to Rick than I do Peja for our good play.

If what Peja has been doing isn't what a player does to make his teammates better, then what DOES a player have to do to make his teammates better?

SoupIsGood
02-19-2006, 05:05 PM
Whatever, I'm not bothering with this.

Hicks
02-19-2006, 05:07 PM
Anyone else care to throw in their 2 cents? I believe what Peja is doing does make his teammates better. If you agree, let me know. If you disagree, I'd love to read what you think a player has to literally do to make his teammates better.

shockedandchagrined
02-19-2006, 05:55 PM
I think the argument runs legitimately in both directions.

Peja's style of game has helped this team play better team basketball. You don't become a three time all-star without having the capacity to be a great player. Though he's pretty much free to hoist shots whenever he's open, it's pretty evident that he's unselfish and that he has a natural feel for the game that fits very well within a team framework. It's when he is relied upon to be effective outside of the team framework that his shortcomings are revealed.

Additionally, the Pacers desperately needed a player LIKE Peja to be more effective as a team, in that they needed another player that could be at their most effective without the ball in their hands all the time. Every team requires some type of balance in this way to be successful. That's why losing Reggie Miller hurt. With or without Ron Artest, the Pacers had too many players that needed the ball to be effective and the result was a lot of isolation and a lack of ball movement.

Arcadian
02-19-2006, 06:16 PM
I think having Peja allows us to run a system that benefits more players.

I do not believe Peja is the type of player who by being on the court makes other players better like a Kidd or other star player for whom the "making teammates better" arguement is generally.

Bball
02-19-2006, 06:49 PM
Whatever, I'm not bothering with this.

That's an odd reaction to something you seemingly thought so strongly on.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
02-19-2006, 07:52 PM
you seemingly thought so strongly on.

-Bball

No

Hicks
02-19-2006, 07:54 PM
No


:rolleyes:
You're describing a team that finally fits together. That is the reason they are playing well, not because Peja is some amazing player that makes those around him better. I give more credit to Rick than I do Peja for our good play.

:huh:

SoupIsGood
02-19-2006, 08:02 PM
:huh:


Yes








.... that's how I feel, but I don't really care enough to get into a big debate about it....... and yet here I am. You guys suck. :-p Anyway, looking at the posts, I like what Arcadian said best. Bball, go accuse him of not watching the games. Go git em.

Hicks
02-19-2006, 08:03 PM
SoupIsGoodIsNotSoGood :-p

SoupIsGood
02-19-2006, 08:07 PM
:kickcan:

Bball
02-19-2006, 08:16 PM
Yes








.... that's how I feel, but I don't really care enough to get into a big debate about it....... and yet here I am. You guys suck. :-p Anyway, looking at the posts, I like what Arcadian said best. Bball, go accuse him of not watching the games. Go git em.

You could follow the game on the radio, follow it on the net, follow it on the game threads, work nights and follow it via newspapers and newsites, etc...

I took what Arcadian said to mean he looks at it in a macro sense- IE: the player distributing the ball is the only guy to make anyone better.

I don't look at it that way. I think there's a 1000 little things that go into it. It's quietly going about your business and doing things in a professional way. It's doing more than what you are obviously a specialist at. It's being unselfish on the court. It's about always 'trying'. It's always playing with passion and determination. It's not whining and posing... and it is showing others that you can play the game without those things. It's about not holding or dominating the ball and showing you can still make an impact on the game. It's about letting the game come to you on the offensive end. It's about working hard yet making it look easy. It's about not (constantly) whining at the refs. It's about sharing the ball. It's about wanting to see your teammates succeed. It's about being comfortable in, and understanding, your role... not pushing or pressing your game even if you know you could do more (because it is ultimately a team game).

It's about being a professional.

So far, Peja is bringing those qualities and they are contangious qualities. And that makes the others better because it sets an example and sets a tone. There's nothing at all wrong with showing emotion (IMHO) but don't lose track of the scoreboard or the game either.

If nothing else, just the fact that the Pacers can and do run another offense -successfully- with Peja is a sign that he brings some good things to the table.

That's how I see it.

-BBall

Arcadian
02-19-2006, 08:54 PM
I took what Arcadian said to mean he looks at it in a macro sense- IE: the player distributing the ball is the only guy to make anyone better

That's not at all what I meant. Typically when talking heads are talking about players who make others better they are talking about top tier players. Players who are individually better than most and question if they can make the players around them better e.i. KG, T-Mac and so forth.

Asking if Peja makes his teammates better isn't that type of discussion. No one is ever going to say, "Let's see how well AJ or Jackson will play without Peja" the way they would about Fisher without Shaq, K-mart without Kidd or Jackson without Duncan.

Do I think Peja makes the chemistry better? Yes. Peja works as a piece not as the engine.

kellogg
02-19-2006, 10:34 PM
If I may inject one word of caution about Peja?

Yes, when healthy, he's great during the regular season. Unfortunately, he tends to do a disappearing act for the playoffs. I hope that doesn't carry over for him with the Pacers. The true test will be how he does under pressure. If he has to create his own shots, you're in trouble.

Hopefully it won't happen.

I know Ron is a ticking time bomb; we're just hoping there's a really long fuse.

If both players play up to their potential, this trade could go down in NBA history as the most mutually beneficial trade ever to be made.

I wish us both luck!!!

And a fond Good luck to Peja. His "Serbian lay-up" from about three feet past the arc will take your breath away. And when he's on, it's nothing but net. I've never heard a swoosh so sweet.

Want to make him smile? Make a sign that says "Napred Pedja!" That's "GO Peja" in Serbian.


I certainly wish no ill on Ron or the Kings...and truly hope it's a mutually beneficial deal. Things were never going to change for Ron here...if he didn't see that management and the fans were 150% behind him after what happened last year, then he never would.

Hopefully he will mature and with an established coach and a familiar face (Brad Miller), he'll settle down.

As far as Peja and the playoffs, perhaps him not having to be a focal point in the offense will take the heat off him...since we have JO, Jax, Sarunas, Fred to shoot the long-ball if Peja is off. We'll see.

I just can't help but think that every Kings fan should just be holding their breath with Ron...but I do think he'll be fine for the rest of the season. He was, after all, on his best behavior for us this year until the trade demand. I wonder if the 'issues' occur first in the locker room...then only later does it leak out to the press and/or grate on the team and management.

kellogg
02-19-2006, 10:38 PM
Every team requires some type of balance in this way to be successful. That's why losing Reggie Miller hurt. With or without Ron Artest, the Pacers had too many players that needed the ball to be effective and the result was a lot of isolation and a lack of ball movement.


To me the only player that 'needs' the ball to be effective is JO...and their win/loss record last season and this reflects the fact that he might be a 20-10 player, but the team suffers in the win column for it. There certainly isn't anything about JO's game that 'balances' this team.

Jermaniac
02-19-2006, 10:43 PM
I wonder how much better Peja would make players if he had to play in that ****ty half court offense Rick had.

If its anything its Jack and AJ that are making players better. And the offense, we didnt have Peja last year and all the guys that are playing good now played good last year. Taaaaaadddddaaaaaa.

Bball
02-19-2006, 10:51 PM
I wonder how much better Peja would make players if he had to play in that ****ty half court offense Rick had.

If its anything its Jack and AJ that are making players better. And the offense, we didnt have Peja last year and all the guys that are playing good now played good last year. Taaaaaadddddaaaaaa.

Subtract Peja and add Reggie for last year.

-Bball

Hicks
02-19-2006, 10:51 PM
Jack making players better? :lol2:

shockedandchagrined
02-19-2006, 11:00 PM
To me the only player that 'needs' the ball to be effective is JO...and their win/loss record last season and this reflects the fact that he might be a 20-10 player, but the team suffers in the win column for it. There certainly isn't anything about JO's game that 'balances' this team.


Since when did this thread become about O'neal. I thought it was about the impact of Artest versus Peja. O'neal is a post player. Of course he needs the ball to be effective. But when you include Artest into the equation and even Jackson for that matter, you have two more guys that tend to dominate the ball. Hence, an unbalanced team, or at a least starting lineup that plays the majority of minutes.

If the Pacers are to make a run deep into the playoffs, I think they will need just a little post scoring to do it.

Jermaniac
02-19-2006, 11:07 PM
Jack making players better? :lol2:Peja making players better? :lol2:

We will see come playoff time how much he makes players better.

Pacersfan46
02-19-2006, 11:09 PM
Jack making players better? :lol2:


I was thinking PRECISELY the same thing.

This shouldn't even be a debate. Peja is doing for this team what Reggie has done in the past. His presence is clearly making them better. You can't give him any space, or help anyone. Giving Jackson, and everyone more space to do what they do.

Pacersfan46
02-19-2006, 11:10 PM
Peja making players better? :lol2:

We will see come playoff time how much he makes players better.

Yes, Jermaine, and Artest did such a great job at that in the playoffs as well. :rolleyes:

Jermaniac
02-19-2006, 11:20 PM
Got us to the ECF didnt they. If Tins doesnt get hurt we win play in the finals.

ChicagoJ
02-19-2006, 11:20 PM
Wonder if DW and LB sent their supply of Maalox to the Maloofs?

I've still got my Nexium, and I'm not sharing it.

Turns out Artest wasn't the only stress in my life. Something about a client that's a multi-billion dollar airline in Chapter 11 reorg. Ugh.

Bball
02-20-2006, 12:37 AM
Sometimes I wonder if we're all talking about the same players and team....
:kickcan:

-Bball

PaPaK
02-20-2006, 02:47 AM
Peja's impact > Ron's impact in these 7 games

In my opinion Peja is a better offensive and a better team player, he doesnt force his shots while Artest does because he clearly wants to be the man in Sacramento. Ron takes 3 more shots per game and still has less PPG than Peja, in his last game he shot 4-20 and has been forcing 3's frequently.

I cant say anything bad about Rons defense, he has obviously lifted the Kings there, but i gotta say that Peja has always been at least a decent defenders and probably the best in ex Kings lineup. Peja always managed to keep his players in check but the Kings always got molested either through Bibby or down low through Brad and SAR.

I remember players like Pryzibilla having their best games against the Kings and little crappy point guards just owning Bibby on the other end of the floor, while Peja always managed to guard players like Dirk, Lewis, Carmelo etc. (you might remember Pejas clutch def. plays from last years playoffs ;) but thats not important now).

So my point is that (in these 7 games) Peja's impact clearly > Ron's impact wether you judge it by teams record, statistics or the overall play!

Unclebuck
02-20-2006, 07:38 AM
Peja's impact > Ron's impact in these 7 games

In my opinion Peja is a better offensive and a better team player, he doesnt force his shots while Artest does because he clearly wants to be the man in Sacramento. Ron takes 3 more shots per game and still has less PPG than Peja, in his last game he shot 4-20 and has been forcing 3's frequently.

I cant say anything bad about Rons defense, he has obviously lifted the Kings there, but i gotta say that Peja has always been at least a decent defenders and probably the best in ex Kings lineup. Peja always managed to keep his players in check but the Kings always got molested either through Bibby or down low through Brad and SAR.

I remember players like Pryzibilla having their best games against the Kings and little crappy point guards just owning Bibby on the other end of the floor, while Peja always managed to guard players like Dirk, Lewis, Carmelo etc. (you might remember Pejas clutch def. plays from last years playoffs ;) but thats not important now).

So my point is that (in these 7 games) Peja's impact clearly > Ron's impact wether you judge it by teams record, statistics or the overall play!




I never thought Peja was the Kings weakest defenders. Not with Biby and Brad Miller around.