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View Full Version : Pistons may run out of steam...may not



Major Cold
02-16-2006, 10:43 AM
For the Pistons I might be worried sending their bench away with numbers like this.

Average mpg per starter

Pistons 36.12- --starters on court 75% of the time
Spurs 30.88----starteron court 64% of the time
Dallas 30.86----starters on court 64% of the time
Heat 32.62----Starters on court 67% of the time
Pacers 32.02----Starters on court 66% of the time

Kstat
02-16-2006, 10:47 AM
For the Pistons I might be worried sending their bench away with numbers like this.

Average mpg per starter

Pistons 36.12- --starters on court 75% of the time
Spurs 30.88----starteron court 64% of the time
Dallas 30.86----starters on court 64% of the time
Heat 32.62----Starters on court 67% of the time
Pacers 32.02----Starters on court 66% of the time

...and yet, no starter is in the top 35 in minutes played.....

It's called not having starters as good as ours, so they dont see the floor as much as a whole on average.

Much as I'd like to see the starters play a little less, at the same time its hard to complain about them playing minutes proportional to their talent level.

I wouldn'd mind Delfino and Dale seeing the floor more, but would that take the average MPG down that much? I don't think so.

Jackson and Peja average around the Pistons starters average- are they going to run out of gas?

Duncan, Parker and Bowen average around 35 MPG. Same thing could be said for them.

Terry and Howard average around 34, and Dirk averages 37.5, more than any player on our team. I suppose that means Dallas is finished, too.

Does the fact they have guys who bring the overall average down make them any less fatigued?

Major Cold
02-16-2006, 10:54 AM
is the reason why the Pistons signed Davis and Evns to add depth the bench?

Then why would they not use the bench that they added depth . Your answer is because their starters are so much better than everyone elses. But does that determine why the Spurs use their bench more? No. The fact is once you get past the starting lineup of Detroit, there is not much there. And that is one of the reasons why they lost to the spurs.

Kstat
02-16-2006, 10:56 AM
is the reason why the Pistons signed Davis and Evns to deepen the bench?

Then why would they not use the bench that they deepen. Your answer is because their starters are so much better than everyone elses. But does that determine why the Spurs use their bench more? No. The fact is once you get past the starting lineup of Detroit, there is not much there. And that is one of the reasons why they lost to the spurs.


There are a number of reasons we lost to the Spurs. Depth wasn't one of them.

And I just showed you, the Spurs have 3 starters playing what detroit's plays, and if Manu would have been healthy, it'd be 4. And they supposedly are the deepest team in the NBA.

As for our reserves, I'd put Delfino up almost pretty much any reserve swingman in the NBA. Same with Dice and Dale as backup big men. As the season goes on, Dale and Delfino will see the court a lot more.

No our bench isnt the best, but it isnt awful, either.

Major Cold
02-16-2006, 11:43 AM
Actually Manu has come off the bench in the past. Finley and Horry get alot of PT and then there is Nazr and NVE.

Come on the only bench players LB used was HUnter and Dice. Both did well, but they needed another scorer.

Why do the Piston fans have so much to say about Delfino. He has done nothing. If he is one of the best reserve men in the NBA, then why does Evans play more than him? 2003 draft picks for the Pistons are busts. That is why Darko is being traded.

Pistoner
02-16-2006, 12:29 PM
Why do the Piston fans have so much to say about Delfino. He has done nothing. If he is one of the best reserve men in the NBA, then why does Evans play more than him? 2003 draft picks for the Pistons are busts. That is why Darko is being traded.

Piston fans have so much to say about Delfino because we have seen him play. You obviously haven't seen him much. Stats rarely tell the whole story.

Fool
02-16-2006, 12:42 PM
Manu rode the bench his first year. Split the starts his seocnd year and started all of last year. Its clear he'd have been starting for them all year if he was healthy (he's started 80% of the games he's played this year even with his injuries).

I don't agree that he'd have 35 minutes a game this year (though its possible) as Popovich has always taken him off the court often to keep his energy high.

The Pistons did need another scorer on the bench last year, thats definately true. The Pistons this season (untill the trade) played 4 guys off the bench between 10 and 20 minutes, with a coach getting used to the team. A 9 man rotation is fine with me and teams that go farther than that usually have real problems in their roster.

The Spurs went down to a 7-8 man rotation in the Finals just like the Pistons.

Major Cold
02-16-2006, 12:57 PM
Flip has seen him play and still plays Evans over him

DisplacedKnick
02-16-2006, 01:13 PM
The Pistons starters have played a bunch of minutes AND have played the most total games of any NBA team over the past two seasons - and it hasn't seemed to slow them down this season, though I guess maybe they're wearing down and would have only lost 4 games this year except for their overall level of tiredness.

IOW - if anyone's counting on them wearing down, I think we can safely tuck that away as very unlikely. They might have an injury - even supreme conditioning doesn't explain nobody having a major problem in three seasons (I think Ben's problem at the start of last year is the biggest injury they've had) - but I doubt it'll be because they wear down.

Fool
02-16-2006, 01:16 PM
In the begining of the season Evans got all the minutes. The last 20 or so games they've played similar minutes or Delfino has played more. Its clear he's moving up the rotation list.

Major Cold
02-16-2006, 03:51 PM
ok thanks for the info. Delfiino is getting more mins that Evans of late. Last 5 games is close.

Delfino- 10mins
Evans- 15

travmil
02-16-2006, 04:17 PM
Man, if you ever want to bring out the Pistons Pep Brigade, all you have to do is mention something that might develop into a negative situation for them. Not that it has, or even will, but that it might. And Lord forbid that you actually bring a valid stat (such as percentage of minutes played by the Pistons starting 5 versus other NBA teams starting 5) to the table to support your point of discussion. That's sure to bring up a completely irrelevant comparison (such as percentage of minutes played by two stars from those same teams) in retort. It's either insecurity on the part of the Pistons fans that post at PD, or a complete inability to allow opposing fans even a glimmer of hope that the Pistons just might have a weakness.

Since86
02-16-2006, 04:26 PM
Jackson and Peja average around the Pistons starters average- are they going to run out of gas?

Duncan, Parker and Bowen average around 35 MPG. Same thing could be said for them.


Peja has missed extensive time, so has Duncan.

MPG are only kept, if they actually play.

Pistons starters have played every game this year, so comparing them to other players that have played in 5 or more less games then them isn't a good comparison.

Take your 35 mins and multiply that by 5. That gives you 155 less minutes played. That's quite a difference minutes wise.

Then take into consideration that while the Pistons bodies not only miss those minutes, but the recoup time as well, and it only compounds the added minutes played.


To make a long story short, you just can't take MPG and compare them to other players. You have to take into account the number of games played as well.

DisplacedKnick
02-16-2006, 04:39 PM
Man, if you ever want to bring out the Pistons Pep Brigade, all you have to do is mention something that might develop into a negative situation for them. Not that it has, or even will, but that it might. And Lord forbid that you actually bring a valid stat (such as percentage of minutes played by the Pistons starting 5 versus other NBA teams starting 5) to the table to support your point of discussion. That's sure to bring up a completely irrelevant comparison (such as percentage of minutes played by two stars from those same teams) in retort. It's either insecurity on the part of the Pistons fans that post at PD, or a complete inability to allow opposing fans even a glimmer of hope that the Pistons just might have a weakness.

Part of the problem is that folks are bringing up an argument that has no historical validity.

You can say that Jamal Tinsley, Jermaine O'Neal or Brad Miller don't have the endurance to make it through an entire NBA season and be perfectly right based on past history. There's nothing in the past few seasons to indicate that every Pistons starter is anything but capable of carrying a heavy minutes load and performing very well - to the tune of two consecutive NBA Finals appearances.

So someone basically decided to take a number and fabricate something out of it.

travmil
02-16-2006, 04:51 PM
So someone basically decided to take a number and fabricate something out of it.

So what's wrong with seeing past history, suggesting that their luck might run out, and attempting to discuss it?

SoupIsGood
02-16-2006, 05:24 PM
There are a number of reasons we lost to the Spurs. Depth wasn't one of them.






No wai!!!!


I swear you said something opposite of this at the time of the Davis signing. Something about Tayshaun having to guard Duncan

Shade
02-16-2006, 05:39 PM
No wai!!!!


I swear you said something opposite of this at the time of the Davis signing. Something about Tayshaun having to guard Duncan

I'm pretty sure I remember that as well.

Kstat
02-16-2006, 06:50 PM
No wai!!!!


I swear you said something opposite of this at the time of the Davis signing. Something about Tayshaun having to guard Duncan

Yeah, I blame our idiot coach that was too ****ing scared to play Ben Wallace or Sheed with 4 fouls in the 3rd quarter, and instead told Tayshaun to go in there and play Tim Duncan.

Yeah, If we had Dale last year, it would have made it a non-issue, but I blame Larry moreso than our lack of a 4th big man.

In game 7 of the NBA finals, you trust your stars to not pick up a 5th foul.

Kstat
02-16-2006, 06:52 PM
Peja has missed extensive time, so has Duncan.

MPG are only kept, if they actually play.

Pistons starters have played every game this year, so comparing them to other players that have played in 5 or more less games then them isn't a good comparison.

Take your 35 mins and multiply that by 5. That gives you 155 less minutes played. That's quite a difference minutes wise.

Then take into consideration that while the Pistons bodies not only miss those minutes, but the recoup time as well, and it only compounds the added minutes played.


To make a long story short, you just can't take MPG and compare them to other players. You have to take into account the number of games played as well.


...so your agument is this:

The Pistons are in trouble because they don't get injured often.

Meanwhile, DUncan and Peja are much better off, because they've been injured this year.

:laugh: Somehow, I don't see the logic....

Kstat
02-16-2006, 06:53 PM
So what's wrong with seeing past history, suggesting that their luck might run out, and attempting to discuss it?

Because it's called wishful thinking. He's saying don't be so surprised to see it rebuffed.

Let's put it this way:

If Ben and Chauncey were coming off injuries, you'd say they're not going to last because they're injury prone.

If they stay healthy, then that's bad because they play too many minutes.

Either way, you can make up some BS theory as to why we're in trouble.....

Kstat
02-16-2006, 06:55 PM
As for our bench, I'm still sticking by my statement that Delfino isn't that much unlike Danny Granger. Delfino knows how to play, he's got amazing defensive quickness for a new player, and his offensive game is streaky. Also like Granger, it took him some time to carve out a sport in the rotation this year.

You can laugh, because you havent seen Delfino play. I watch both guys play constantly, and they remind me a lot of each other, except one is a SG/SF and the other is a SF/PF. Both guys were taken a lot later than they should have.

Mo Evans is a steady role player. Nothing spectacular, but he's a capable 4th swingman off the bench.

Dale Davis we can afford to play more now, because at his age you cant play they guy a whole season and expect him to have something for the playoffs.

My two concerns are this:

1. Rest Tay more. You can play Ben and Rip 48 minutes a agme and it won't bother them. Tay's the exception.

At some point, I'd love to see Delfino start over him to get him some extra R&R going into April.

2. Backup PG. Lindsey as an excellent defender, but he cant run an offense and everybody knows it. Joe will trade for a backup PG in the next week. The only question is who. I'll address this again in a week.

NorCal_Pacerfan
02-16-2006, 07:16 PM
My take on it is that if the Pistons lose one of their starters, they are in deep squat come playoffs.

Kstat
02-16-2006, 07:17 PM
My take on it is that if the Pistons lose one of their starters, they are in deep squat come playoffs.

You could say that about any team.

Hicks
02-16-2006, 07:26 PM
You could say that about any team.

Udonis Haslem? :D

Kstat
02-16-2006, 07:29 PM
Udonis Haslem? :D

Miami might not be going anywhere anyway, but theyre definately not doing it if they're starting Gary Payton or Antoine Walker....

Haslem is easily their 3rd-most important player.

travmil
02-16-2006, 08:54 PM
Because it's called wishful thinking. He's saying don't be so surprised to see it rebuffed.

But there's still nothing wrong with wishful thinking. The guy floated a theory that could come to pass and got attacked from all sides for even thinking that it might be possible. We all know that history doesn't bear out the likelihood of such a scenario, but we also know that the law of averages catches up to everyone eventually. That's not a slam on the Pistons. It's just pointing out one possible thing that could go wrong for them under certain circumstances. I'm failing to see where this idea (again, supported by a stat that is absolutely true) is fair game for such ridicule, especially when he basically said "maybe, maybe not" in the thread title.

Fool
02-16-2006, 10:17 PM
Disagreeing isn't ridicule nor "attack". Calling those who disagree a "pep squad" is ridicule. If he didn't want opinions on his theory then he wouldn't have posted it.

Shade
02-16-2006, 10:21 PM
The Pistons have been freakishly lucky so far as health and endurance so far.

Shade
02-16-2006, 10:23 PM
Udonis Haslem? :D

Jamaal Tinsley?

Jermaine O'Neal?

:innocent:

FreshPrince22
02-17-2006, 05:48 AM
For the Pistons I might be worried sending their bench away with numbers like this.

Average mpg per starter

Pistons 36.12- --starters on court 75% of the time
Spurs 30.88----starteron court 64% of the time
Dallas 30.86----starters on court 64% of the time
Heat 32.62----Starters on court 67% of the time
Pacers 32.02----Starters on court 66% of the time

Spurs have Rasho starting.
Dallas has Diop starting
Heat have J Will (or Payton) and Posey starting
Pacers have... well tell me who your starters are and I'll pick one or two (Foster for example).

Needless to say, the Pistons don't have a "Rasho" or "Diop" in the starting lineup to play 20-25, and sit. That's just not how this team was built. Any team in the league would be playing Tayshaun (who most would argue is our worst starter) 35+ minutes. No other team is built with 5 players so equal in their impact on the team. EVERY other good team has a superstar and some role players. This team has 5 stars. Not superstars like Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, Wade, JO, T-Mac, etc. But stars as in all-stars or borderline all-stars.

DisplacedKnick
02-17-2006, 09:40 AM
So what's wrong with seeing past history, suggesting that their luck might run out, and attempting to discuss it?

Whether the Pistons wear down - or "run out of steam" as the title of this thread says, has nothing to do with luck.

Breaking an ankle because someone falls down in a scramble for the ball and rolls over on you has to do with luck - not this baseless speculation that for some mystical reason known only to God and some posters in this thread the Pistons will "run out of steam" even though they're playing similar minutes with similar rotations to what took them to the NBA Finals the last two seasons AND has seen them be one of the most durable teams in the league.

If the Thread Title had been, "In Game three of the First Round Ben and Rasheed will collide going after a Rebound and Sustain Injuries that will sideline them for the Rest of the Playoffs" we'd be talking about luck.

This team has proven - pretty soundly - that they're not gonna just Run out of Steam. They may Run Out of Luck but then again, they may not and I'm not sure who's psychic enough to predict that.

Completely useless thread with only one purpose - to provoke Pistons fans.

Me too I guess though I think I'm just bored.

Slick Pinkham
02-17-2006, 10:25 AM
I think that the Pistons have a bigger talent gap between their starters and their bench players than any team in the league.

But 80% of that is having the best starting lineup in the league. The other 20% is that there are only about 3 guys on the Detroit's bench that they trust to play during a meaningful minute of a game. But that is true for all but about 5 teams in the NBA.

Major Cold
02-17-2006, 10:37 AM
No this thread was used to spark a discussion. I am new to PD so how was I to know that there were Piston fans here. I could assume, but I really didn't know. Maybe my intent was to find out who were the Piston fans. Maybe my intent was to express the fact that the Piston starters are so good that the five alone have achieved their success (with a little help from Flip). Mainly my intent was to find out other thoughts on this matter.

Major Cold
02-17-2006, 10:45 AM
If you agree with me that the Pistons have the best chemistry in the NBA, then we are on the same page.

If you agree with me that if one starter from SA gets injured it messes up their chemistry, then we are on the same page.

So if the best unified starting line up (that has logged more mins. than the rest of the contending starting lineups) losses a starter their chemistry is not as messed up as SA or Heat or Dallas?

I don't get that logic. The conditioning of the Pistons is the best in SPORTS. We all have seen the product. They have never broken down when it mattered. But just because no one team has beaten Kobe and Shaq in the Finals doesn't mean it is not going to happen. Just ask your beloved Pistons

RWB
02-17-2006, 11:04 AM
No this thread was used to spark a discussion. I am new to PD so how was I to know that there were Piston fans here. I could assume, but I really didn't know.

Intridcold, you're fitting right in. Not to worry, DK is not having just a bad day rather a bad season. He's a Knick fan, but has been a member of the forum groups since the begining. Many think he's still a closet Pacer fan.

Stick around long enough and you'll find several members are fans of different teams. Difference is at PD these guys and gals want to talk basketball instead the usual troll cr@p.

Major Cold
02-17-2006, 12:11 PM
Yeah I was on teh espn message boards. They have trolls. The piston fans on this site are a lot like the non trolls on espn (although I am new so please excuse this sweeping generalization if it is wrong). I realize not all Piston fans throw cups of beer, but most seem very defensive if anything remotely negative is said of the Pistons. Like if I said that the 06 Pistons could not beat the 95 Bulls ever. Its my opionion but to them its an inaccurate fact.

Fool
02-17-2006, 12:16 PM
You should have been here during "The Brawl" aftermath. I don't think you'd have the same opinion.


I think that the Pistons have a bigger talent gap between their starters and their bench players than any team in the league.

But 80% of that is having the best starting lineup in the league. The other 20% is that there are only about 3 guys on the Detroit's bench that they trust to play during a meaningful minute of a game. But that is true for all but about 5 teams in the NBA.

This is true.

Since86
02-17-2006, 03:42 PM
...so your agument is this:

The Pistons are in trouble because they don't get injured often.

Meanwhile, DUncan and Peja are much better off, because they've been injured this year.

:laugh: Somehow, I don't see the logic....


Clueless as usual.

I didn't make any reference to saying that Duncan or Peja will be healthier. (It would be great if you actually follow what I said.)

You made the point that they are playing the same amount of time as Duncan/Peja. I just pointed out that they may have the same MPG, but are completely seperated in minutes played for the season.

Kstat
02-17-2006, 06:22 PM
Like if I said that the 06 Pistons could not beat the 95 Bulls ever. Its my opionion but to them its an inaccurate fact.

Actually, I'm pretty certain the Pistons could take the 95 Bulls....

rexnom
02-18-2006, 09:41 AM
Actually, I'm pretty certain the Pistons could take the 95 Bulls....

I hate to continue a debate but are we talking no-MJ 94-95 Bulls or MJ/Rodman 95-96 72 win Bulls?

If it's the former then the Pistons wipe the floor with em, if it's the latter, sorry, but the Bulls win...

FreshPrince22
02-18-2006, 11:28 AM
I think the Pistons could grab at least a game or two from them. Obviously the Bulls are superior, but to say they wouldnt have a chance at beating the once is a bit of a strech.