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ReGGiesBoOmBaby
02-15-2006, 07:35 AM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...602150405/1088 (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060215/SPORTS04/602150405/1088)

O'Neal likes new offense
Injured Pacer says quicker pace of offense suits his game

By Mike Wells
mike.wells@indystar.com

Jermaine O'Neal is still weeks from returning to the Indiana Pacers' lineup. That hasn't stopped him from thinking about how he will fit in with the new-look offense once his torn left groin heals.

O'Neal has sat on the bench contemplating getting up and down the floor in transition. Hitting a cutting Peja Stojakovic through the lane for an easy layup. Knocking down 15-foot jumpers in the motion offense.

All of which will be wishful thinking if the Pacers resort to their old ways of dumping the ball inside to O'Neal on set plays.

Which, for the record, O'Neal doesn't want.

"I think this offense will get better when I get back," O'Neal said. "I'm going to talk to coach (Rick Carlisle) at some point. Obviously he's the coach and he's going to make the best decision for the team, but my preference would be to continue to run up and down. My body frame and my style fits more in the up-and-down pace rather than half-court. . . . I do understand at some point in the playoffs we're going to have to slow it down a little bit, but this is the perfect situation."

As they did last season when O'Neal missed 22 games with a shoulder injury, the Pacers are relying on more ball movement, playing at a quicker pace and getting balanced scoring. They went 15-7 playing that style without O'Neal last season. They're 4-3 since he was injured against Cleveland on Jan. 24. The Pacers are a game above .500 with and without O'Neal in the lineup this season, but they're scoring 21/2 more points a game without him.

The Pacers have gotten by without a major low-post presence so far, but say they need O'Neal to advance in the playoffs.

"It's going to be very interesting to see how Jermaine can play with Peja and (Stephen Jackson) and all the guys," team president Larry Bird said. "When guys sit out a significant period of time, these guys are used to getting their points. How will they get back in the mix? We know Jermaine's our guy and we'll have to get him the ball, but you have to have ball movement with this team."

The person responsible for making it work is Carlisle, who typically likes to keep a firm grip on the offense. Carlisle has loosened the reigns during O'Neal's absence, and he wants to continue to play up-tempo when the team's All-Star forward returns.

"Jermaine is a good runner, he helps our rebounding and he's one of our better shooters of our big people," Carlisle said. "It's going to give us a big lift. The question is when will he be able to come back healthy and in some kind of condition. When he does return, he's going to be an added lift for this team not only on offense but on defense, too."

O'Neal hasn't set a time for his return. He worked out Saturday for the first time since his injury and is expected back before the regular season ends.

"My ultimate goal is to be 100 percent healthy," he said. "When I'm not 100 percent, I'm not able to do what I can on the floor. I feel like I'm hurting the team in the long run because my body wears down.

"I'm just happy for the team right now. We have a lot of different offensive guys that can do a lot of different things. I think the situation is perfect and everybody benefits off the style that we're playing right now."

Call Star reporter Mike Wells at (317) 444-6053.

Copyright 2006 IndyStar.com. All rights reserved

D-BONE
02-15-2006, 07:57 AM
They're saying all the right things now. Talk is cheap though. See LB continues to openly promoting the movement and flow style. The suspense is killing me.

pizza guy
02-15-2006, 08:48 AM
Well, like you said, it all sounds wonderful right now. LB and RC and JO are all saying what we want to hear...hopefully it's more than just feel-good messages.

rexnom
02-15-2006, 09:50 AM
as much as it seems to be "say what we want to hear" stuff (it's almost like they've seen the message boards), I think this is lots better than them saying nothing...

Raskolnikov
02-15-2006, 10:02 AM
Nice, very nice. Looks like everyone's on the same page: Larry, Rick and Jermaine. Can't wait till the latter gets back.

Skaut_Ech
02-15-2006, 10:14 AM
""It's going to be very interesting to see how Jermaine can play with Peja and (Stephen Jackson) and all the guys," team president Larry Bird said. "When guys sit out a significant period of time, these guys are used to getting their points. How will they get back in the mix? We know Jermaine's our guy and we'll have to get him the ball, but you have to have ball movement with this team."

The person responsible for making it work is Carlisle, who typically likes to keep a firm grip on the offense. Carlisle has loosened the reigns during O'Neal's absence, and he wants to continue to play up-tempo when the team's All-Star forward returns."



I don't like to pick apart an interview, but man, I get the feeling it's going to be the same old-same old. I just feel that Carlisle is a creature of habit and coupled with Bird saying we have to get Jermaine the ball...that makes me nervous.

"We'll have to get him the ball." I guess the problem I have is that I'm not as confident in Jermaine's passing skills as I'd like to be. Statistically, Jermaine's assists per game is in the ballpark of Rashard Lewis or Tayshun Prince (around 2.3-2.5) and I'd like it more to be in the neighborhood of Gasol, or Kirilenko or Duncan (4.0).

If Carlisle can resist dumping it into Jermaine in the post and play him more like Gasol or Nowitski, who aren't restricted to a certain area on the floor, our recent free flowing offense COULD be a boon to him and the team.

I'm just pretty sure it won't happen.

FrenchConnection
02-15-2006, 10:45 AM
""It's going to be very interesting to see how Jermaine can play with Peja and (Stephen Jackson) and all the guys," team president Larry Bird said. "When guys sit out a significant period of time, these guys are used to getting their points. How will they get back in the mix? We know Jermaine's our guy and we'll have to get him the ball, but you have to have ball movement with this team."

The person responsible for making it work is Carlisle, who typically likes to keep a firm grip on the offense. Carlisle has loosened the reigns during O'Neal's absence, and he wants to continue to play up-tempo when the team's All-Star forward returns."



I don't like to pick apart an interview, but man, I get the feeling it's going to be the same old-same old. I just feel that Carlisle is a creature of habit and coupled with Bird saying we have to get Jermaine the ball...that makes me nervous.

"We'll have to get him the ball." I guess the problem I have is that I'm not as confident in Jermaine's passing skills as I'd like to be. Statistically, Jermaine's assists per game is in the ballpark of Rashard Lewis or Tayshun Prince (around 2.3-2.5) and I'd like it more to be in the neighborhood of Gasol, or Kirilenko or Duncan (4.0).

If Carlisle can resist dumping it into Jermaine in the post and play him more like Gasol or Nowitski, who aren't restricted to a certain area on the floor, our recent free flowing offense COULD be a boon to him and the team.

I'm just pretty sure it won't happen.

Don't be so negative! First of all, the second line you quote from the article is penned by Mike Wells, not said by anyone involved with the team and in any case it is a simple observation. Of course the offensive system depends on Rick. Second of all, I think that the far more telling quote is said by Jermaine:


"My body frame and my style fits more in the up-and-down pace rather than half-court..."


I have never heard him say this before. I read this to mean that JO is tired of taking the pounding of playing in the low post on every play. This is perhaps the only new information in the article and I would argue that it is good news. Yes, LB is right; JO does have to get his touches, what with him being the most talented player on the team. But, I think that this is the most positive article to come from the pen of Mike Wells in some time and we should take it at face value.

rexnom
02-15-2006, 10:50 AM
I agree, this article should be filed under the category "good news." At least they aren't ignoring this elephant...

ChicagoJ
02-15-2006, 10:54 AM
JO has been begging for a big center to take some of the physical pressure off him since we-know-who was traded away.

That's why, for some of us, we don't care if David ever scores, grabs a rebound, or blocks a shot, as long as he can stay in the game long enough to be a real physical presence.

Its a chicken-and-egg thing, if he can stay in the game he'll get his share of points, rebounds and blocks.

sweabs
02-15-2006, 11:11 AM
Wasn't there an article published last year around this time that was almost identical? And yet, it never came to fruition once JO returned back to the court.

All I would like is for Carlisle to give it a chance. The problem with Rick, is that he doesn't tend to give new things a chance for too long before going back to his "comfort zone". He does it with players on the court and substitution patterns, and he's likely to do the same with this offense. If it doesn't work so well for one game, I don't know if we can expect him to try again or go back to the "watch-JO" offense.

The other thing to watch out for is when JO actually returns to the court. Will he even be back in time for some part of the regular season? And if so, how long will it take for everyone to get acquainted with the system incorporating Jermaine, and will it be able to continue through playoffs?

I have a feeling that once playoffs begin, Rick will revert back to the old system. And once again, this article reaffirms the fact that Larry is most definitely against that style of play.

heywoode
02-15-2006, 11:12 AM
JO has been begging for a big center to take some of the physical pressure off him since we-know-who was traded away.

That's why, for some of us, we don't care if David ever scores, grabs a rebound, or blocks a shot, as long as he can stay in the game long enough to be a real physical presence.

Its a chicken-and-egg thing, if he can stay in the game he'll get his share of points, rebounds and blocks.

Very true words, Jay. I think David may be starting to realize this as well. He has seemed to let the game come to him more lately than trying to force the issue to get his stats before he gets the inevitable 3rd foul call...

I really think the chicken-egg theory holds true with his foul magnetism too. If he could deal with the bad calls and just play ball, the refs would start to give him more of the benefit of the doubt. As long as he whines about every call he doesn't get or that goes against him, that pattern will continue, IMO.

Outlaw
02-15-2006, 11:13 AM
I'm covinced Rick WILL go back to dump it down everyone stand around ball.He is just too conservative and likes to control the offense too much.:(

ChicagoJ
02-15-2006, 11:22 AM
Very true words, Jay. I think David may be starting to realize this as well. He has seemed to let the game come to him more lately than trying to force the issue to get his stats before he gets the inevitable 3rd foul call...

I really think the chicken-egg theory holds true with his foul magnetism too. If he could deal with the bad calls and just play ball, the refs would start to give him more of the benefit of the doubt. As long as he whines about every call he doesn't get or that goes against him, that pattern will continue, IMO.

I generally agree. But I don't think its the officials that are keeping David off the court. His coach hasn't even allowed him to foul out of very many games this season. Now its one thing to pull him if you're going to put him back in the game later (and Rick's done that a bit more lately), but its inexcuseable to pull him with four or five fouls if you've got no intention to put him back in the game later. Said another way, because of Rick's coaching, David fouls out of the game with four or five fouls, not six.

FrenchConnection
02-15-2006, 11:52 AM
I generally agree. But I don't think its the officials that are keeping David off the court. His coach hasn't even allowed him to foul out of very many games this season. Now its one thing to pull him if you're going to put him back in the game later (and Rick's done that a bit more lately), but its inexcuseable to pull him with four or five fouls if you've got no intention to put him back in the game later. Said another way, because of Rick's coaching, David fouls out of the game with four or five fouls, not six.

Along these same lines, I think that it would be good for David to play a while with five fouls. As a big man in this league, this is a skill that he needs to develop.

heywoode
02-15-2006, 11:58 AM
I generally agree. But I don't think its the officials that are keeping David off the court. His coach hasn't even allowed him to foul out of very many games this season. Now its one thing to pull him if you're going to put him back in the game later (and Rick's done that a bit more lately), but its inexcuseable to pull him with four or five fouls if you've got no intention to put him back in the game later. Said another way, because of Rick's coaching, David fouls out of the game with four or five fouls, not six.

Good points. Rick seems to pull him more for his attitude towards the refs once he gets 4 or 5 fouls, but given that fact that he is on the bench, essentially fouled out with 4 or 5, he may as well stay in and learn to play without getting that last foul, as was stated just ahead of me already!

It's getting better with David, and I hope he makes the most of this opportunity and that Rick plays him in the middle and lets JO play his natural position. JO at Power forward also is conducive to keeping the same style of play because it lets JO run more and be in better position to get the medium-length rebounds that he misses out on by having to body up as a center down low. Of course, that is assuming he is trying to get rebounds in the first place!

Harmonica
02-15-2006, 12:00 PM
JO has been begging for a big center to take some of the physical pressure off him since we-know-who was traded away.

That's why, for some of us, we don't care if David ever scores, grabs a rebound, or blocks a shot, as long as he can stay in the game long enough to be a real physical presence.

Its a chicken-and-egg thing, if he can stay in the game he'll get his share of points, rebounds and blocks.

Eh. I keep going back to game 4 of the ECFs when Cro was knocking down outside shots and pulling the Wallaces out of the paint so Jermaine and Al could pound away on the inside. JO has been begging (figuratively) for a serious outside threat more than anything. The proof is in the pudding, as they say: 61 wins and a trip to the ECFs without we-know-who. Our backcourt (and injuries) killed us in that series.

Jermaniac
02-15-2006, 12:19 PM
Ohh my Burst your f'n bubbles. Of course its not Jermaine's fault and it never was, the guy has always said he wants to play this way. Its our retarded coach who wont let him play this way, no wonder no one likes playing for him.

Continue your hate on JO, I bet when he comes back and Little Ricky goes back to the same old **** you will still blame it on JO. And you know who you are.

ChicagoJ
02-15-2006, 12:25 PM
Eh. I keep going back to game 4 of the ECFs when Cro was knocking down outside shots and pulling the Wallaces out of the paint so Jermaine and Al could pound away on the inside. JO has been begging (figuratively) for a serious outside threat more than anything. The proof is in the pudding, as they say: 61 wins and a trip to the ECFs without we-know-who. Our backcourt (and injuries) killed us in that series.

A great example. That's the last "important" game that JO has been healthy for.

ChicagoJ
02-15-2006, 12:26 PM
Ohh my Burst your f'n bubbles. Of course its not Jermaine's fault and it never was, the guy has always said he wants to play this way. Its our retarded coach who wont let him play this way, no wonder no one likes playing for him.

Continue your hate on JO, I bet when he comes back and Little Ricky goes back to the same old **** you will still blame it on JO. And you know who you are.

I assume you aren't referring to me because I try to lead the charge on "Don't blame JO for playing the way his coach wants him to" brigade.

Jermaniac
02-15-2006, 12:31 PM
Its not you Jay

Harmonica
02-15-2006, 12:44 PM
Its not you Jay

We want names!

Jermaniac
02-15-2006, 12:52 PM
When Jermaine comes back you will see the names.

Strany
02-15-2006, 01:42 PM
I think Bird will apply some pressure to Rick to find a balance in the offense
that can use the movement as the primary option and still do the pound JO
the ball when needed. It will be Rick's opportunity to find that balance.

Harmonica
02-15-2006, 01:53 PM
When Jermaine comes back you will see the names.

I know one person on that list. :whistle:


EDIT: Make that two.

Pacersfan46
02-15-2006, 02:03 PM
I've commented on it in the past, and wondered if it was Jermaine's deal.

However, with all the comments about how Rick calls plays almost every trip down the floor from people working with other teams I've seen.

Either way, I'm of the mind that Carlisle needs to go more than anything. Which has been slowly coming along over the last couple weeks.

KINGS FAN
02-15-2006, 02:03 PM
yea i think you guys should run more. but when you have a guy like jermaine who is so dominant in the low post its hard to do that sometimes.

Bball
02-15-2006, 02:32 PM
Once again we read something that makes it seem Carlisle and Bird aren't exactly on the same page.

BTW... Jermaniac... I never said it was JO's fault. I said JO is not Shaq and we shouldn't use him like he is. I don't think JO is exactly playing up to expectations in the "Throw it to JO and watch offense" but it would help if we didn't pretend he was something he's not regardless of how much money we are paying him. Play to his strengths... don't expose his weaknesses (passing and keeping himself in the game mentally).

-BBall

denyfizle
02-15-2006, 02:35 PM
it was never JOs fault our offense was like that. this is really all on RICK

masobczyk
02-15-2006, 03:26 PM
I'm covinced Rick WILL go back to dump it down everyone stand around ball.He is just too conservative and likes to control the offense too much.:(

i'm convinced that if he does go back to it, rc won't be back next season. there is no reason JO can't be a part of a free-flowing offense.

Skaut_Ech
02-15-2006, 06:10 PM
I've commented on it in the past, and wondered if it was Jermaine's deal.

However, with all the comments about how Rick calls plays almost every trip down the floor from people working with other teams I've seen.

Either way, I'm of the mind that Carlisle needs to go more than anything. Which has been slowly coming along over the last couple weeks.


I hate to say it, but I'm kinda thinking we might need a change at coach, too. I think it's funny, as a whole, how many of us sem to be noticing some real, possible flaws in Rick's coaching. I think the key, like is being said, is if he goes back to the old dump it in, offense.

I'm gonna hold onto thinking same as Outlaw said. The dump it to Jermaine will be back.

I think Jermaine's comparatively low assists, compared to other top Fs & FCs bears out that he needs to be utilized differently. I fault Rick a bit for trying to fit JO into a role that doesn't suit him as well as another might. The fact that Jo tends to hold the ball to much and not be as successful passing out of double teams as guys like Kirelenko or Nowitski points to that.

Pacesetter
02-16-2006, 03:19 AM
JO's young and strong. His frame is built for a faster pace- this style of offense we're playing now suits him down to the ground. He's intelligent, makes good decisions with the ball, and will heighten his overall level of performance by adjusting to this offense. Like the man said, the COACH picks the offense, JO just does what is asked. Listening to some of the criticisms here lately, I've felt like JO was being unfairly criticized for playing the "isoball" because he's just following the Coaches play calling. Seriously though, Coach Carlisle spends the entire game barking out instructions on the sidelines, what's he gonna to do say, "Nah, Coach, we gonna do it like dis!" :grinno:

Get well soon #7!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:

Arcadian
02-16-2006, 03:30 AM
It's just more of Wells twisting quotes
And blowing sunshine down our throats. ;)

Will Galen
02-16-2006, 09:24 AM
I've felt like JO was being unfairly criticized for playing the "isoball" because he's just following the Coaches play calling.

The coach isn't the one holding the ball and making multiple fakes, that's really what all of us are complaining about. JO and Jax are bad about this!

Watch Tim Duncan, he does something with the ball, sometimes just throwing the ball back to the passer.

I don't think it's the iso ball we hate so much, rather one player holding the ball and all the others standing around the three point line waiting for a pass that only arrives once in a blue moon.

Anthem
02-16-2006, 11:44 AM
Obviously he's the coach and he's going to make the best decision for the team, but my preference would be to continue to run up and down. My body frame and my style fits more in the up-and-down pace rather than half-court. . . . I do understand at some point in the playoffs we're going to have to slow it down a little bit, but this is the perfect situation."
The article's a reprint from last year, but this quote is new.

Nobody's mentioned it yet, but this is, I think, a significant point. Jermaine's body is really not suited for the kind of game Carlisle wants him to play. It's not that he lacks the skill, it's that he shouldn't be banging in the post on every play.

His injuries have been worse in the last two years, and I really think it's because JO's been taking such a beating down low.

Jermaniac
02-16-2006, 12:17 PM
The coach isn't the one holding the ball and making multiple fakes, that's really what all of us are complaining about. JO and Jax are bad about this!

Watch Tim Duncan, he does something with the ball, sometimes just throwing the ball back to the passer.

I don't think it's the iso ball we hate so much, rather one player holding the ball and all the others standing around the three point line waiting for a pass that only arrives once in a blue moon.Stop protecting Rick, when Ron was here it was still the same. ITS THE OFFENSE not the players. JO holds the ball, Jack holds the ball, Ron holds the ball, Freddie holds the ball, Tinsley holds the ball. Stop protecting your God Carlisle its him not the players.

Look at Jack now and how much he is passing, its because the offense now asks him to make the pass.

waxman
02-16-2006, 02:12 PM
He likes the new offense because he sees how much easier points and rebounds come when your not playing every possession like the 4th quarter of a playoff game.

JO should flourish...when he gets back.

Since86
02-16-2006, 02:30 PM
Stop protecting Rick, when Ron was here it was still the same. ITS THE OFFENSE not the players. JO holds the ball, Jack holds the ball, Ron holds the ball, Freddie holds the ball, Tinsley holds the ball. Stop protecting your God Carlisle its him not the players.

Look at Jack now and how much he is passing, its because the offense now asks him to make the pass.


I find it quite humorous the guy with the handle "Jermaniac" is defending JO by telling another poster with the handle "Will Galen" to stop protecting Carlisle.

Oh the irony......:laugh:

You can have a favorite, and be critical of them at the same time. Just making sure you know that.......

Pacesetter
02-16-2006, 10:12 PM
The coach isn't the one holding the ball and making multiple fakes, that's really what all of us are complaining about. JO and Jax are bad about this!

Watch Tim Duncan, he does something with the ball, sometimes just throwing the ball back to the passer.

I don't think it's the iso ball we hate so much, rather one player holding the ball and all the others standing around the three point line waiting for a pass that only arrives once in a blue moon.

If you read my comments thus far about JO you'd probably already know I have mentioned it will probably help him to go back to the way he was playing after he came back from working out with Bill Russell, which I believe was the summer of 2003. He would turn and face the basket and would catch and shoot with less indecision, which typically turned into more points and better transition defense as a result.

JO has held the ball more this year, and has seemed indecisive at times, but he cannot be blamed for people standing around watching & he can't be blamed for Coach Carlisle calling his number as much as he has.

At the same time though, it must also be said he has gotten much better at finding the open man this year. His apg is the highest it's been in his career at 2.3 apg. I also have recalled several times when JO has mentioned that he is actively working on that part of his game.

IMO, JO is only guilty of trying to do too much! Some people just interpret him holding the ball as being a ball hog, and I'm confident that's not on. JO is held in high esteem by most casual fans (the paying majority). In fact truth be known, alot of us feel terribly sorry for him having to deal with Ron Artest's butt these past 3 years. To most people complaining about JO is unreasonable considering the bigger picture of what all has gone on.

JMO.

Jermaniac
02-16-2006, 10:42 PM
I find it quite humorous the guy with the handle "Jermaniac" is defending JO by telling another poster with the handle "Will Galen" to stop protecting Carlisle.

Oh the irony......:laugh:

You can have a favorite, and be critical of them at the same time. Just making sure you know that.......There is nothing to be critical about with Jermaine and this offense, he wants to play in it but his retarded coach wont let him. And Jermaine gets blamed when we lose.

pizza guy
02-16-2006, 11:56 PM
The article's a reprint from last year, but this quote is new.

Nobody's mentioned it yet, but this is, I think, a significant point. Jermaine's body is really not suited for the kind of game Carlisle wants him to play. It's not that he lacks the skill, it's that he shouldn't be banging in the post on every play.

His injuries have been worse in the last two years, and I really think it's because JO's been taking such a beating down low.

I agree 100%. I posted in a different thread a while back, (here, http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=340890&highlight=injuries#post340890)the same thing. His injuries have increased and his effectiveness decreased. IMO, he shouldn't be playing the physical style that RC wants him to, he should rather be playing in a more free-flowing, passing, moving offense. I think the fact that he's missed more games due to injury is directly related to this style, and for him (thus the team) to be successful, he needs to drop some of that muscle and regain his 2003 form.

Since86
02-17-2006, 02:58 PM
There is nothing to be critical about with Jermaine and this offense, he wants to play in it but his retarded coach wont let him. And Jermaine gets blamed when we lose.


Pretty interesting you think he's a "retard." I'd bet he knows more about basketball, especially coaching, than all of us on this board.

There can't be anything critical about JO in this offense, because he has never played in THIS offense. But there is plenty of criticism for his play when he was actually in the lineup, but you're blindly loyal to him to even consider him having a fault.

I bet if he farted and someone said it stunk, you'd just try to tell them that they didn't have the aquired taste to fully understand.

Moses
02-17-2006, 04:00 PM
He likes the new offense because he sees how much easier points and rebounds come when your not playing every possession like the 4th quarter of a playoff game.

JO should flourish...when he gets back.
QFT (Quoted for Truth)