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View Full Version : Darko trade thread..... (Darko deal done via ESPN)



Kstat
02-13-2006, 01:26 AM
local detroit radio reporting that the Pistons are pondering a trade offer from Orlando of Kelvin Cato and Orlando's 2006 qst rounder for Darko and Arroyo.

Cato's also an expiring deal and would take $9 million off the cap next year.

What do you guys think?

I think Darko's a stud in waiting, but I'm beginning to realize he cant get a chance to improve behind 4 quality bigs.

Is dumping Darko worth a chance to get in on the Rudy Gay/Adam Morrison Sweepstakes?

Just curious if you guys think its worth it.

sweabs
02-13-2006, 01:33 AM
I read that on RealGM this morning. Has it gained ground since then?

To me, that trade wouldn't make much of a difference seeing as though Darko nor Arroyo make much of a difference as is.

However, it could at least have long-term benefits. You could always pick up a nice guy in the draft this summer, although I don't think it's that strong this year...but at least you can get someone who can come off the bench and produce as opposed to Darko.

At this point, your team can afford to lose Arroyo and Darko for nothing and it really wouldn't make a difference (I would hardly notice...I like Hunter more than Arroyo anyway).

That being said, I somehow thought that Dumars would be able to wheel something better off than Cato and the pick.

Kstat
02-13-2006, 01:35 AM
I read that on RealGM this morning. Has it gained ground since then?

It seems to have gained ground, yeah.

SoupIsGood
02-13-2006, 01:35 AM
That is a sweet deal, if the draft pick is really that high. (I dunno ORLs record)

Although, if Darko pans out, Orlando has got one scary pair of big men for years to come.

SoupIsGood
02-13-2006, 01:37 AM
Why can't the Pacers put together something like this? I would like a high draft pick... but we never get one. Detroit recently had the Darko pick, and they're looking to snag another somewhat high pick.

Kstat
02-13-2006, 01:39 AM
That is a sweet deal, if the draft pick is really that high. (I dunno ORLs record)

Orlando right now could realisticallly finish as high as 3rd-worst in the NBA or as low as 1th-worst. They're only a few games away from either.

With Grant Hill and Jameer Nelson both hurting, Orlando's on a steep decline right now.

sweabs
02-13-2006, 01:41 AM
Why can't the Pacers put together something like this? I would like a high draft pick... but we never get one. Detroit recently had the Darko pick, and they're looking to snag another somewhat high pick.

Not for this draft, I don't think it's worth it unless you can afford to do something like this (which the Pistons can).

Now, if we're talking next years draft, then I'm listening...

Peck
02-13-2006, 01:43 AM
Are you f'n kidding me????


God D@mn how does Dumars do this time after time?

Orlando's 1st round pick & Cato for two bench players one of which never sees the light of day.

Laugh at you, are you kidding me. I might point a finger in your direction but it will not be the index finger pointing your way.

Unreal. Just exactly what Detroit needs a high draft choice.

Anthem
02-13-2006, 01:44 AM
Who plays point guard for the stretch run?

CableKC
02-13-2006, 01:45 AM
local detroit radio reporting that the Pistons are pondering a trade offer from Orlando of Kelvin Cato and Orlando's 2006 qst rounder for Darko and Arroyo.

Cato's also an expiring deal and would take $9 million off the cap next year.

What do you guys think?

I think Darko's a stud in waiting, but I'm beginning to realize he cant get a chance to improve behind 4 quality bigs.

Is dumping Darko worth a chance to get in on the Rudy Gay/Adam Morrison Sweepstakes?

Just curious if you guys think its worth it.
How can that be a bad thing?

Geez...you add further depth to your Frontcourt for the rest of this season, clear salary AND get another 1st round draft pick for a player that you guys have yet to use.

If I could figure out a way to get Cato and the Magic's 1st round pick, I would be happy too.

Anthem
02-13-2006, 01:45 AM
Unreal. Just exactly what Detroit needs a high draft choice.
Because the last one worked out so well... :D

Kstat
02-13-2006, 01:47 AM
Who plays point guard for the stretch run?

I've thought about this.

Lindsey is obviously the 3rd PG but he also cant run a team.

Options are as follows:

1. Activate Alex Acker (Joe's pride and Joy pick from the 05 draft).

2. Ask for Travis Diener from Orlando (steve Kerr clone)

3. Go after another team's backup PG dangling Minnesota's 2nd rounder as bait.

SoupIsGood
02-13-2006, 01:48 AM
I've thought about this.

Lindsey is obviously the 3rd PG but he also cant run a team.

Options are as follows:

1. Activate Alex Acker (Joe's pride and Joy pick from the 05 draft).

2. Ask for Travis Diener from Orlando (steve Kerr clone)

3. Go after another team's backup PG dangling Minnesota's 2nd rounder as bait.

(4. Trade that high Orlando pick for Tinsley)



:innocent:

Bball
02-13-2006, 01:50 AM
No... hang onto him. His potential is too much to let go of. Re-up his contract making him one of the highest players on the team and then wait it out. The rest of the players will understand it is for the good of the team to have him on ice on the bench.

Don't look at it like a mistake or a waste of bench space on the roster that you could move on from. Look at it like an investment in the future. Darko's legend will only grow as he waits his turn.

Keep Darko, Detroit!

Friggin' Dumars....

-Bball

sweabs
02-13-2006, 01:57 AM
Although, if Darko pans out, Orlando has got one scary pair of big men for years to come.

No kidding.

I just remember preseason this year, and Darko was averaging like, 5-6 blocks/game or something crazy like that. Him and Dwight would be tough to matchup with on either end of the court. Defensively, they're both good shotblockers, and offensively, Dwight is relentless inside, whereas Darko has the nice touch from the outside.

That's all assuming, of course, that Darko pans out...but with some playing time and a change of scenery anything is possible. And what does Orlando have to lose at this point?

abington
02-13-2006, 02:16 AM
No... hang onto him. His potential is too much to let go of. Re-up his contract making him one of the highest players on the team and then wait it out. The rest of the players will understand it is for the good of the team to have him on ice on the bench.

Don't look at it like a mistake or a waste of bench space on the roster that you could move on from. Look at it like an investment in the future. Darko's legend will only grow as he waits his turn.

Keep Darko, Detroit!

Friggin' Dumars....

-Bball

first he has to have unplayable knees.

rexnom
02-13-2006, 02:43 AM
Even if Darko starts having Primoz Brezec like seasons...it's not like it'll ever happen in Detroit any time soon. Detroit is close to basically having an almost unbeatable team. All they need is solidifyication of that bench. Another Dice quality player off the bench. A Darko trade would do that. Still, I can see the reluctance in giving him up. It took J.O. a full 4 years before he did anything. And Darko was a bit younger than J.O. I believe on draftday AND Darko has had to adjust to a new game too. Also, Portland at least played J.O. somewhat. Yet there's the whole "we could have had Melo, Bosh, or Wade" (not to mention some other first round studs) thing. Darko is tough. You don't want to give up on him but then you got to be realistic too.

Fireball Kid
02-13-2006, 02:51 AM
Whats Darko's game like? I know hes a pretty good shot blocker and an ok rebounder, but isnt he a good shooter? I heard some scout report during that draft that he had an offensive-like game like Dirk Nowitzki except that hes stronger than Dirk. I dunno, he seems like he'll be a solid player.

Eindar
02-13-2006, 03:02 AM
If I were you, I'd ditch him for the pick, no problem. He's had 2+ full seasons to outplay the likes of an aging Antonio McDyess, and a fossilized Dale Davis for PT this season. He hasn't managed to outplay either. If you can get a high 1st for him and also get cap room, I'd do it. Worst case scenario, you get a guy who doesn't play, and you traded Arroyo for cap room, which really isn't much different from how it is now. Best case scenario, you end up with a young guy who can contribute off the bench, and saved a lot of money in the process.

Besides, if you had to, you could easily find someone to take that pick off your hands for a future pick or a player and a lower pick if there wasn't anyone attractive for your selection. I think 1st round draft picks are absolutely the most valued and liquid of all assets for an NBA team.

Merz
02-13-2006, 03:30 AM
not sure what the Pistons current cap situation is, but don't need some cap room to resign Ben Wallace in the summer. I don't know if is still the case but I remember hearing that the Bulls would possibly offer him the max.

Kstat
02-13-2006, 03:54 AM
not sure what the Pistons current cap situation is, but don't need some cap room to resign Ben Wallace in the summer. I don't know if is still the case but I remember hearing that the Bulls would possibly offer him the max.

1. Ben doesn't even have an agent anymore. He's hiring a lawyer to look over his next deal. Doesnt sound like a guy looking to break the bank.

2. As for the cap space, it's not for ben, it's to enable us to go after another MLE free agent next summer without fear of the luxury tax.

It also keeps the bottom line low, which always provides great flexibility for future moves.

It wouldnt surprise me if Joe flipped Cato to another team in exchange for a talented player on someone's bench with a long-term contract.

rexnom
02-13-2006, 04:07 AM
1. Ben doesn't even have an agent anymore. He's hriing a lawyer to look over his next deal. Doesnt sound like a guy looking to break the bank.

2. As for the cap space, it's not for ben, it's to enable us to go after another MLE free agent next summer without fear of the luxury tax.

It also keeps the bottom line low, which always provides great flexibility for future moves.

It wouldnt surprise me if Joe flipped Cato to another team in exchange for a talented player on someone's bench with a long-term contract.

Cap space and pick is never bad. If anything, it's tradeable assets, like you mention, for the deadline.

beast23
02-13-2006, 10:25 AM
Are you f'n kidding me????


God D@mn how does Dumars do this time after time?

Orlando's 1st round pick & Cato for two bench players one of which never sees the light of day.

Laugh at you, are you kidding me. I might point a finger in your direction but it will not be the index finger pointing your way.

Unreal. Just exactly what Detroit needs a high draft choice.Question Peck.

Would you trade Croshere and Tinsley, even though he is BYC, to get the same thing in return from Orlando?

grace
02-13-2006, 10:27 AM
I won't laugh. I might point and blow milk out my nose, but I won't laugh. :)

Kegboy
02-13-2006, 11:01 AM
I think Darko's a stud in waiting, but I'm beginning to realize he cant get a chance to improve behind 4 quality bigs.

Well, remember, Portland thought the same thing about JO. You never know, Dale retires, Dice blows out his knee again, etc.

I'd say it comes down to how he is in the locker room. I'm sure he's not happy, but if he's managable, I'd keep him for at least a little while longer. If he's become a malcontent and isn't working hard to improve, get the best deal while you still can.

Ralph Snart
02-13-2006, 11:18 AM
I think Kelvin Cato will be worthless on the Pistons (seriously, if Darko never played, when will Cato?), so the real value I think would be the draft pick. So far this, is going to look like a pretty miserly draft, so if by some chance you fall out of the top 5, you're taking a gamble.

What I don't get is why Orlando would trade their #1 for Darko and Arroyo, when guys like Steven Hunter are going for two #2s. When you look at it from that perspective, I think the Pistons would be getting a steal.

purdue101
02-13-2006, 11:27 AM
Darko does have a lot of potential for a big man at his age. He's got nice form on his jumper and good footwork.

His problem is his attitude. I know a few ppl in the Pistons organization and they've all said the same thing to me when I ask about Darko. He comes to practice and is very lethargic and doesn't seem to try. I've heard he's the last one in and the first one out of practice.

I've met him myself before and after a couple of Pistons games and even I can tell, the guy just doesn't give a ****.

Anyways, I can confirm that the Pistons are indeed looking to ship him out to Orlando along with Arroyo, who they're not very happy with.

DisplacedKnick
02-13-2006, 11:37 AM
That's a great deal for the Pistons. They need the cap space to re-sign Ben and Prince and this lets them do that without going over the LT.

It's a good deal just on that basis alone, and if Dumars can really get a 1st with this ...

Why'd we get stuck with the idjit GM out of Detroit's backcourt?

Harmonica
02-13-2006, 11:50 AM
Why'd we get stuck with the idjit GM out of Detroit's backcourt?

That's funny.

Brian
02-13-2006, 11:56 AM
Dont worry,We point and laugh at you guys every night. ;)

FrenchConnection
02-13-2006, 12:16 PM
That's a great deal for the Pistons. They need the cap space to re-sign Ben and Prince and this lets them do that without going over the LT.

It's a good deal just on that basis alone, and if Dumars can really get a 1st with this ...

Why'd we get stuck with the idjit GM out of Detroit's backcourt?

I would argue that this would be a win-win. The Magic get a good young player with potential. One with more potential in fact than almost any player in this year's draft. He is a real 7 footer with range. They don't grow on trees. They also need a back-up point guard after they trade Francis. When Darko pans out (which I am 90% sure that he will), this will be looked at as a steal by Orlando. However, I believe that this would be a great deal for Detroit. There is no time to let Darko sink or swim in the middle of a title run, and Detroit is likely to be in the same situation for the next few years. So he is useless, much as Primoz was here. So they get something for nothing with the inclusion of the pick.

This makes too much sense not to happen.

Peck
02-13-2006, 02:43 PM
Question Peck.

Would you trade Croshere and Tinsley, even though he is BYC, to get the same thing in return from Orlando?

Yes.

However if your trying to compare the two trades I would say that both of our players were starters at one point in time this season. Neither of the Pistons players have started for their team.

Anthem
02-13-2006, 02:51 PM
If I thought we had anything to interest Orlando, I'd jump on it.

They're not trading a #1 pick for Tinsley and Croshere.

OnlyPacersLeft
02-13-2006, 02:58 PM
lol...of course orlando is looking for ANYTHING that can get them wins right now. If darko flourishes it could be a steal. Then again knowing the magic's history it will backfire and that pick will land someone like gay or morrison.

OnlyPacersLeft
02-13-2006, 03:01 PM
If I thought we had anything to interest Orlando, I'd jump on it.

They're not trading a #1 pick for Tinsley and Croshere.
throw in stephen jackson and you got a deal!

FreshPrince22
02-13-2006, 03:08 PM
And just to point something out. Look at Orlando's next strech of games...

Tue 14 @ Miami
Wed 15 Miami
Tue 21 @ Cleveland
Wed 22 @ New Jersey
Fri 24 Seattle
Sun 26 Houston
Tue 28 @ L.A. Lakers
Wed 1 @ Golden State
Fri 3 @ Phoenix
Sat 4 @ Denver
Mon 6 @ Utah
Fri 10 Cleveland
Sat 11 Golden State
Mon 13 @ Indiana

They could be in the absolute tank before you know it. The only real winnable games for them are Seattle and Golden State. And let's face it, the way they're going even those would be a challenge. They have the 6th worst record in the league, and they are about 6 games out of having the worst.

I worry about our PG situation though. I don't think Flip has faith in Lindsey's ability to run the offense yet.

denyfizle
02-13-2006, 03:35 PM
local detroit radio reporting that the Pistons are pondering a trade offer from Orlando of Kelvin Cato and Orlando's 2006 qst rounder for Darko and Arroyo.

Cato's also an expiring deal and would take $9 million off the cap next year.

What do you guys think?

I think Darko's a stud in waiting, but I'm beginning to realize he cant get a chance to improve behind 4 quality bigs.

Is dumping Darko worth a chance to get in on the Rudy Gay/Adam Morrison Sweepstakes?

Just curious if you guys think its worth it.

I don't think it's bad at all. you guys are strong enough as it is with your core group for a couple of years more to come, so getting rid of Darko and Arroyo for cap space and future options isn't bad.

Kstat
02-13-2006, 04:18 PM
Some reports are coming that Joe's trying to pry Jameer Nelson and/or Fean Vasquez away from Orlando in this deal, but that hasn't been officially confirmed.

supposedly Joe's last counter-offer was Darko, Arroyo, minny's 2nd, and a 2008 1st rounder for Nelson, Cato, a 2006 1st rounder and Vasquez.

We're supposedly expecting Orlando to then counter by putting restrictions on their 1st rounder, and then go from there.

Again, thats a report from an uncomfirmed source, but not one that's known to lie.

The only announced deal thusfar has been the original offer I mentioned in the beginning.

FreshPrince22
02-13-2006, 04:54 PM
supposedly Joe's last counter-offer was Darko, Arroyo, minny's 2nd, and a 2008 1st rounder for Nelson, Cato, a 2006 1st rounder and Vasquez.


I'd hit it. Even if Darko "breaks out", we still get a lot in return. Jameer would be perfect right now to backup Chauncey (Dumars loves him), and Vasquez would be the perfect situation. He can play overseas while we try to win a couple rings, and come over when he's ready (this probably would have happend with Darko if we had known we were getting Sheed). Not to mention those 2 picks are probably pretty useless. Our first isn't worth jack, and Minny's second will be good for a fringe NBA player most likely.

Sounds to good to be true though. I'd probably do that deal without the first from ORL. Mind if I ask who the source is?

Kstat
02-13-2006, 04:58 PM
Even if it is true, Orlando obviously wouldn't accept it.

The hang-up would likely be orlando's 2006 first. With two young big men they dont have much need for Vasquez anyway. They'd probably have to meet somewhere in the middle and protect the pick somewhere from 3-5 and up.

FreshPrince22
02-13-2006, 05:03 PM
Even if it is true, Orlando obviously wouldn't accept it.

The hang-up would likely be orlando's 2006 first. With two young big men they dont have much need for Vasquez anyway. They'd probably have to meet somewhere in the middle and protect the pick somewhere from 3-5 and up.

Yea, they could protect that 1st all they want for all I care. Vasquez, Nelson, and "Kelvin Capspace" would be enough for me.

Will Galen
02-13-2006, 05:37 PM
Thought I'd give you guys a chance to point and laugh at us....

HeHeHe! I guess you don't know what's been going on behind your back.






I love Private Messages!

microwave_oven
02-13-2006, 05:37 PM
Linsey Hunter is the man...he can play defense better than any other point in the league. Shoots pretty well too, has to work on distributing the ball better though.

Trader Joe
02-13-2006, 06:30 PM
Dumars would be fleecing the Magic in any of the proposed deals in this thread. I mean ur telling me Darko still can't earn consistent minutes? And don't tell me they wouldn't like to have him spelling Rasheed and Ben along with Dice. Darko's a bust. I'll be pissed if this happens mainly because I think more highly of this draft than others. You could easily get a guy like Daniel Gibson from 6-10.

Wavejumper
02-13-2006, 06:35 PM
Everyone wins with this trade :buddies:

aceace
02-13-2006, 07:20 PM
I guess if Detroit makes that trade and gets a high pick us Pacer fans can hope that theres another Darko that Dumars is in love with. It may not be a deep draft next year but theres at least 7-8 good players in it that could help right away. Kinda hard to make fun of Detroit when they're in first and pretty much a lock to make the finals..... unless something miraculous happens in Indy.

shags
02-13-2006, 08:01 PM
I'd hit it. Even if Darko "breaks out", we still get a lot in return. Jameer would be perfect right now to backup Chauncey (Dumars loves him), and Vasquez would be the perfect situation. He can play overseas while we try to win a couple rings, and come over when he's ready (this probably would have happend with Darko if we had known we were getting Sheed). Not to mention those 2 picks are probably pretty useless. Our first isn't worth jack, and Minny's second will be good for a fringe NBA player most likely.

Sounds to good to be true though. I'd probably do that deal without the first from ORL. Mind if I ask who the source is?

I heard that rumor too. I'd do Darko, Arroyo, Minnesota's 2nd rounder, and a 2008 1st rounder (unprotected) for Cato, Nelson, and Orlando's 2006 1st rounder (top 5 protected).

I think Darko's given up in Detroit, and he doesn't ever see an opportunity for him to play. However, I really think he could do as well as Nenad Krstic is doing for New Jersey if he's given consistent minutes.

With as much money as the Pistons are going to have to pay their starters, they're going to have to build their bench through the draft and through cheap FA signings (like Evans). They're not going to be able to afford to use the MLE year after year.

Outlaw
02-13-2006, 08:28 PM
I don't see any reason to hang on to Darko as he would rot on the bench and he obviously is not happy there. Detroit gets him someplace where he can get time on the floor.

I think he would do well in Orlando as he would not have the pressure on him with Howard there as the conerstone.Being #2 behind Howard should be a good thing.A change of scenery would probably do him some good.:cool:

CableKC
02-13-2006, 08:44 PM
I'd hit it. Even if Darko "breaks out", we still get a lot in return. Jameer would be perfect right now to backup Chauncey (Dumars loves him), and Vasquez would be the perfect situation. He can play overseas while we try to win a couple rings, and come over when he's ready (this probably would have happend with Darko if we had known we were getting Sheed). Not to mention those 2 picks are probably pretty useless. Our first isn't worth jack, and Minny's second will be good for a fringe NBA player most likely.

Sounds to good to be true though. I'd probably do that deal without the first from ORL. Mind if I ask who the source is?
I know that this can spark a huge debate can be had with a "Who has more trade value....Artest or Darko?" :rolleyes: ....but I thought that I read somewhere that when the Artest trade talks began...there was a rumor that the Magic rejected any overtures by Walsh of involving Jameer Nelson in any trade with Artest.

If it is true....then I would think that the Magic would be reluctant to trade Jameer considering that the Magic "supposedly" are trying to move Francis. Also.....if Jameer appears to be the "future" starting PG for the Magic...they wouldn't want to move him, a 1st round draft pick for Darko and Arroyo.

rexnom
02-13-2006, 09:24 PM
I just want to say that Dumars is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I don't know if other GMs go out and make smart moves and inquiries like this and we just don't hear about it but man...from what I can remember the man has only made one mistake...and it seems he's about to rectify it...

Shade
02-13-2006, 09:26 PM
This looks pretty good for Detroit to me. They have the potential to get a really good player in the draft next year and they clear enough $$$ to re-sign Ben.

The only downside could be if Chauncey suffers any kind of injury. Lindsay Hunter as the only back-up? Ouch.

But I'm gonna point and laugh anyway. :finger: :laugh:

sweabs
02-13-2006, 09:27 PM
I just want to say that Dumars is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I don't know if other GMs go out and make smart moves and inquiries like this and we just don't hear about it but man...from what I can remember the man has only made one mistake...and it seems he's about to rectify it...

Well, it wouldn't really be "rectifying" it, unless the player they get in the draft turns out to be better than Dwyane Wade/Chris Bosh/Carmello Anthony.

If he had done things right in the first place, he wouldn't be in this position now.

But I agree - the man is still an amazing GM. Best in the game today.

OnlyPacersLeft
02-13-2006, 09:35 PM
Even if it is true, Orlando obviously wouldn't accept it.

The hang-up would likely be orlando's 2006 first. With two young big men they dont have much need for Vasquez anyway. They'd probably have to meet somewhere in the middle and protect the pick somewhere from 3-5 and up.
you won't ever get fran...his wife won't allow him to come here. Jameer will be a starter in about a year soon and I doubt the magic even want a 2008 first round pick from you guys...I mean 27,28, or 29th pick? lol...

rexnom
02-13-2006, 09:46 PM
Well, it wouldn't really be "rectifying" it, unless the player they get in the draft turns out to be better than Dwyane Wade/Chris Bosh/Carmello Anthony.

If he had done things right in the first place, he wouldn't be in this position now.

But I agree - the man is still an amazing GM. Best in the game today.

Good point...but what I have always wondered is, do the Pistons make the Rasheed trade if they pick any of those guys? And, to me, the Rasheed trade was the key to the championship. Also, the only logical fit would be Bosh there and does Bosh fit in better than Sheed does? And in the end, didn't Detroit win the championship anyway? Could it be that if Detroit had picked up any of those players and thus not made the trade, they wouldn't have won? All speculation. If I'm a Pistons fan tho, I go with Sheed trade and Darko and the ring and finals appearance (not to mention this season or what might go down in the future).

rexnom
02-13-2006, 09:52 PM
you won't ever get fran...his wife won't allow him to come here. Jameer will be a starter in about a year soon and I doubt the magic even want a 2008 first round pick from you guys...I mean 27,28, or 29th pick? lol...

Yeah, 27, 28, 29 (or 30 prolly in this case). Those picks suck. I know no quality players have ever fallen that low? What's that, Tony? Josh Howard, you got something to say? Hulk, you too? And there are many more, not to mention second round players that have been passed over like Rashard Lewis, Manu Ginobili, or Gilbert Arenas. Drafting is tricky. A pick is never bad. Especially a first rounder.

GO!!!!!
02-13-2006, 11:13 PM
there missing Weiss more then we think....

FreshPrince22
02-14-2006, 12:57 AM
Yeah, 27, 28, 29 (or 30 prolly in this case). Those picks suck. I know no quality players have ever fallen that low? What's that, Tony? Josh Howard, you got something to say? Hulk, you too? And there are many more, not to mention second round players that have been passed over like Rashard Lewis, Manu Ginobili, or Gilbert Arenas. Drafting is tricky. A pick is never bad. Especially a first rounder.

For every Josh Howard/Manu/Lewis there are 100 scrubs that barely touch the league.

rexnom
02-14-2006, 02:36 AM
For every Josh Howard/Manu/Lewis there are 100 scrubs that barely touch the league.

Yeah, but does that mean you wouldn't want a pick like that?

sweabs
02-15-2006, 01:19 AM
Pistons Reportedly To Trade Milicic To Orlando
http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/39140/20060214/pistons_reportedly_to_trade_milicic_to_orlando/


Marc Stein of ESPN.com - NBA front-office sources told ESPN.com on Tuesday night that the Pistons and Orlando Magic were close to completing a long-discussed trade that would relocate Milicic, 2003's No. 2 overall pick, to Central Florida. The trade could be completed as early as Wednesday, sources said, with only one potential snag.


The sides, according to sources, are bartering over the extent of lottery protection Orlando would have on the first-round pick it has agreed to send Detroit along with center Kelvin Cato for Milicic and guard Carlos Arroyo.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 01:35 AM
I can live with top-3 protection, but anything besides that should probably make Joe say no.

rexnom
02-15-2006, 02:14 AM
I can live with top-3 protection, but anything besides that should probably make Joe say no.

I heard top-7 protection...at least that's what the magic want http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2331049

Kstat
02-15-2006, 02:15 AM
I heard top-7 protection...at least that's what the magic want http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2331049

That's my point.

If they wont lower the restrictions, this deal is most likely dead.

FreshPrince22
02-15-2006, 02:33 AM
If it goes through as a top-7 protected pick, then Bill Davidson is one greedy old man. This is how you reward the Pistons faithful for selling out the Palace night-in and night-out? By dumping the salary of our only backup PG and our biggest "upside" player?

Awful.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 02:36 AM
Bill Davidson has nothing to do with this. Blame Darko for not forcing his GM to keep him.

Darko had the look of a guy who knew he was on his way out today. Dude looked happier than I've ever seen him.

Darko is begging to leave. Joe is trading him for some value. Both are fine with me.

Darko had his consistent 5-10 minutes, and he showed he isn't going to break into the rotation anytime soon. Get what you can for him and move on.

FreshPrince22
02-15-2006, 03:24 AM
Bill Davidson has nothing to do with this. Blame Darko for not forcing his GM to keep him.

Darko had the look of a guy who knew he was on his way out today. Dude looked happier than I've ever seen him.

Darko is begging to leave. Joe is trading him for some value. Both are fine with me.

Darko had his consistent 5-10 minutes, and he showed he isn't going to break into the rotation anytime soon. Get what you can for him and move on.

It still seems like a deal that is all about money to me. Darko may not be forcing Dumars to keep him, but it's not like he's having a negative impact on the team. At worst we should have let his contract run it's course, and see if something "clicks" for him. If it does, great. If it doesn't, then let him go. At least we still have a backup PG. Who knows, a team could pull a Lakers and go for a sign-and-trade gamble on an unproven player. That netted the Wizards Caron Butler and Chucky Atkins.

I just think they're folding too early, and for too little. And the biggest reason I don't like it is because I have no clue who is going to be our backup PG. We're going to end up with the revolving door PGs we had last year (Smush, Goldwire, Jenkins). Arroyo wasn't great, but all I'll say is "you don't know what you got till it's gone". I just remember what we were like last year pre-arroyo. It wasn't pretty.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 05:10 AM
Joe has already said he will replace arroyo with a new player if arroyo is dealt. He wouldnt do this if he didnt already have a replacement in mind.

FreshPrince22
02-15-2006, 06:10 AM
Joe has already said he will replace arroyo with a new player if arroyo is dealt. He wouldnt do this if he didnt already have a replacement in mind.

Yeah, I just don't see how we're going to get one without giving up even more stuff. The only Free agent that is remotely intriguing is Jay Williams, and who knows about him. I guess we'll just have to wait and see though. I certainly wouldn't put it past Dumars to turn this into another heist, but it's looking pretty grim right now.

skyfire
02-15-2006, 07:28 AM
Why do you need a backup PG?

The Pistons starters dont get injured, i'm sure Lindsay Hunter can handle 8 or less mins a game :P

bulldog
02-15-2006, 11:23 AM
Yeah, but does that mean you wouldn't want a pick like that?
Yes, because a first-rounder is a garaunteed (albeit smallish), medium-term contract. Early second rounders are a lot better.

CableKC
02-15-2006, 12:48 PM
If it goes through as a top-7 protected pick, then Bill Davidson is one greedy old man. This is how you reward the Pistons faithful for selling out the Palace night-in and night-out? By dumping the salary of our only backup PG and our biggest "upside" player?

Awful.
Arroyo isn't your only backup PG.....what about Lindsey?

rexnom
02-15-2006, 03:06 PM
Yes, because a first-rounder is a garaunteed (albeit smallish), medium-term contract. Early second rounders are a lot better.

If it's 30 vs 31 and I'm going to get a stud with the pick, I'd prefer 30 because that gets me a guaranteed contract, like you said. Don't you think the Hawks would have prefered to get Salim Stoudamire with pick 30 and not 31 so he doesn't disappear on them after next year? (If you wanna call Stoudamire a "stud") If the player is just going to be a solid rotation player and nothing else, maybe 31 is better than 30 but regardless, my point was that a late 1st round pick is better than nothing.

rexnom
02-15-2006, 03:10 PM
Bill Davidson has nothing to do with this. Blame Darko for not forcing his GM to keep him.

Darko had the look of a guy who knew he was on his way out today. Dude looked happier than I've ever seen him.

Darko is begging to leave. Joe is trading him for some value. Both are fine with me.

Darko had his consistent 5-10 minutes, and he showed he isn't going to break into the rotation anytime soon. Get what you can for him and move on.

Didn't you say he was a stud-in-the-making? Anyway, I think he can still be a great player but a change of scenery might be necessary.

While I think it's a good deal for the Pistons I would think that getting another solid rotation player would be higher up on Dumars's to-do list than trading for a future pick and cap space (unless you consider Cato a solid rotation player of this sort). Yet I can see how this deal allows the Pistons to have some legit financial flexibility and keeps their future bright. To me, if I'm a Pistons fan, I'm satisfied by this deal.

Fool
02-15-2006, 03:11 PM
Arroyo isn't your only backup PG.....what about Lindsey?

Lindsay is almost completely a situational defender (especially in the playoffs) at this point. Its really just a technicality that he plays PG.

If Detroit needed to put in a guy to run the offense and didn't have Arroyo (not that you can call what he does "running the offense") they would probably go to Tayshaun and then Delfino before Lindsay (though both Prince and Delfino would probably be doing it from something other than the PG position).

Kstat
02-15-2006, 03:17 PM
....and more delfino is fine with me.

purdue101
02-15-2006, 03:27 PM
i agree, i would like to see what delifino has to offer in the NBA.

.he has one of the smoothest jump shots in the game. if you ever see him in warm-ups, he'll drain 10-15 threes in a row without even touching the rim. then during game-time, he clams up. i just think he needs some PT to get his feet wet.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 03:34 PM
that, and he might be an even better defender than Prince.

FreshPrince22
02-15-2006, 03:42 PM
i agree, i would like to see what delifino has to offer in the NBA.

.he has one of the smoothest jump shots in the game. if you ever see him in warm-ups, he'll drain 10-15 threes in a row without even touching the rim. then during game-time, he clams up. i just think he needs some PT to get his feet wet.

His jumper is so erratic it's crazy. It either doesn't move the net or it's some ridiculous air-ball. It's incredibly strange. But the good thing is that he doesn't need to have the jumper going in order to have an impact. He completely owned Vince Carter in the 3rd quarter yesterday. Forcing 3 turnovers, forcing a couple bricks, and blocking his shot. Sparking a 22-4 run while Rip was out of the game with foul trouble.

His jumper has been better, but he had a rough shooting night last night. He had a lot of good looks, but nothing fell except for his first shot. He also backrimmed a nasty dunk over Marc Jackson. Would have been sick if it went down. Either way I think Delfino is really forcing Flip to play him. He has consistantly locked down star players everytime he's on the floor.

FreshPrince22
02-15-2006, 03:44 PM
that, and he might be an even better defender than Prince.

There is no doubt in my mind that he is. Tayshaun can defend jumpshooters well, but I'll take Delfino anyday against guys like Wade, Vince, Pierce, Manu, etc.

Fool
02-15-2006, 03:50 PM
Ugh, lets not do that yet. He played very well on VC and Peirce so far thats about it.

FreshPrince22
02-15-2006, 04:02 PM
Ugh, lets not do that yet. He played very well on VC and Peirce so far thats about it.

No. He has shown flashes of it all season. He just hasn't gotten extended minutes to show that he can consistantly do it. There have been plenty of guys that were really hurting us, where he came in and forced them into very tough shots or TOs when he was on them. Pierce, Wade (score 1 point on him in 13 minutes, then scored 17 in the 6 minutes after he left), Darius Miles, Rashard Lewis, Kobe, Stephen Jackson (I remember Jax pump fakeing for what seemed like 20 seconds trying to get off a shot). All of these guys were really hurting us without Delfino in the game. Then he comes in and all of a sudden they're traveling, forcing bricks, giving up their dribble, etc.

He has just done it too many times to write off. I mentioned it at the beginning of the season, and I have really payed close attention since then. He has easily been our best perimeter defender this year.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 04:06 PM
Agreed. Delfino has been a defensive beast all season long. I wouldnt be opposed to starting him over Prince for a couple weeks as a change-of-pace.

Moses
02-15-2006, 04:13 PM
I hope you guys start him against us over Prince.

FreshPrince22
02-15-2006, 04:24 PM
I hope you guys start him against us over Prince.

No, because Prince is the perfect matchup against Peja. I'd actually like to see more Delfino than Rip. Rip just gets bullied down low by Jackson.

Moses
02-15-2006, 04:27 PM
No, because Prince is the perfect matchup against Peja. I'd actually like to see more Delfino than Rip. Rip just gets bullied down low by Jackson.
Rip is a mismatch for any 2 guard in this league offensively. There is no way you can afford not to start him because you wont get much offensive production from Chauncey when you have AJ the goblin guarding him.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 04:34 PM
WDFN radio says Joe has told Orlando that he wants their 2006 pick unprotected, or he's going to peddle Darko elsewhere.

Atta boy, Joe.

Fool
02-15-2006, 04:36 PM
Rip is a mismatch for any 2 guard in this league offensively. There is no way you can afford not to start him because you wont get much offensive production from Chauncey when you have AJ the goblin guarding him.

I'm sure Delfino is just as better than Rip offensively as he is better than Prince defensively so why not bench Rip for those games. I mean, who needs to play the one player who is most effective against the Pacers when actually playing the Pacers?

Moses
02-15-2006, 05:44 PM
I'm sure Delfino is just as better than Rip offensively as he is better than Prince defensively so why not bench Rip for those games. I mean, who needs to play the one player who is most effective against the Pacers when actually playing the Pacers?
You know what, you're right!! Rip only drops 30 something every game against the Pacers but we got a secret for them this time...We got a guy who can play defense against Stephen Jackson, Indianas most inconsistent shooter!! Can he shoot? Well, not really..But god damn he's got some awesome defense!!

FreshPrince22
02-15-2006, 05:46 PM
Rip is a mismatch for any 2 guard in this league offensively. There is no way you can afford not to start him because you wont get much offensive production from Chauncey when you have AJ the goblin guarding him.

I wasn't aware I said to start Delfino over him :confused:. Oh that's right I didn't. You're putting words in my mouth. I just said I'd like to see more Delfino since he can guard Jackson when he's posting and slashing where as Tayshaun and Rip are too weak to really guard him when he's aggressive. I just think Rip isn't as effective when he's playing 42 minutes and getting posted every other time down the floor.

FreshPrince22
02-15-2006, 05:51 PM
You know what, you're right!! Rip only drops 30 something every game against the Pacers but we got a secret for them this time...We got a guy who can play defense against Stephen Jackson, Indianas most inconsistent shooter!! Can he shoot? Well, not really..But god damn he's got some awesome defense!!

How is it being a homer when you're comparing 2 players that are on the same team. :confused: I don't get it

Moses
02-15-2006, 05:57 PM
How is it being a homer when you're comparing 2 players that are on the same team. :confused: I don't get it
I just find it amusing that you guys are hyping Delfino up to this all-star caliber defender worthy of taking much time away from Rip. He's a solid role player but saying anything more then that would be somewhat of a stretch.

Slick Pinkham
02-15-2006, 05:59 PM
I can't believe anyone would ever think about giving up a lottery pick for Darko.

He would then be the worst bust of all time, having caused TWO teams to waste picks on him.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 06:00 PM
I just find it amusing that you guys are hyping Delfino up to this all-star caliber defender worthy of taking much time away from Rip. He's a solid role player but saying anything more then that would be somewhat of a stretch.

I think Delfino's potential is much on a similiar level as Danny Granger's. He's shown flashes of being a terriffic all-around player, with a very strong defensive presence.

And the more PT Delfino gets, the more he's going to show. He's DEFINATELY got more talent than that of a "role player."

Both players were also similiarly passed up in the draft.

Moses
02-15-2006, 06:01 PM
I can't believe anyone would ever think about giving up a lottery pick for Darko.

He would then be the worst bust of all time, having caused TWO teams to waste picks on him.
It's to early to call him a complete bust...According to the Book of Joe Smith and other busted top 5 picks, you have to wait at least 3 years before calling the player a bust. 4 if he's foreign so Darko still has another year or so to prove himself.

Young
02-15-2006, 07:07 PM
I can't believe anyone would ever think about giving up a lottery pick for Darko.

He would then be the worst bust of all time, having caused TWO teams to waste picks on him.

You are so wrong.

Darko is not a bust. It is WAY to early to say that. He is only 21 years old. Everyone said around draft time that Darko is was ATLEAST 3-4 years from being able to play in the NBA. Give him another year or two before you call him a bust.

As for the rumor trade, I wouldn't do it if I were Detroit. I'd wait to see if Darko can develope into a good player and then you trade him when he has higher value.

Even if Detroit gets Orlando's first and is able to land Morrison or Gay what would that do for them? Either one of those guys would still be stuck behind on of the starters, just like Darko is.

Wait a little longer to see if the kid developes. Darko wasn't drafted with the intentions of needing him in the near future.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 07:09 PM
Actually, Darko's only 20. Won't be 21 till the summer.


Even if Detroit gets Orlando's first and is able to land Morrison or Gay what would that do for them? Either one of those guys would still be stuck behind on of the starters, just like Darko is.

1st of all, both guays are infinately more NBA-ready than Darko.

Rudy Gay is the best SF prospect not named LeBron James in the last decade. We would FIND a place for him.

2ndly, Lamarcus Aldrige is another damn good prospect I'd like to have on this team. I also have confidence he'd beat out McDyess in a year.

CableKC
02-15-2006, 07:22 PM
Actually, Darko's only 20. Won't be 21 till the summer.
1st of all, both guays are infinately more NBA-ready than Darko.

Rudy Gay is the best SF prospect not named LeBron James in the last decade. We would FIND a place for him.

2ndly, Lamarcus Aldrige is another damn good prospect I'd like to have on this team. I also have confidence he'd beat out McDyess in a year.
Any word yet? Is it a protected top-3/5/7 1st round draft pick for the Magic?

Kstat
02-15-2006, 08:12 PM
Any word yet? Is it a protected top-3/5/7 1st round draft pick for the Magic?

If Orlando agrees to aun unprotected pick then they have a deal. Otherwise, there is no deal, per Dumars.

GO!!!!!
02-15-2006, 08:58 PM
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2332021

It's Official Ladies and Gents, and trolls

Kstat
02-15-2006, 09:02 PM
I'm going to hold off judgement until I see if Joe will flip Cato's contract for a better player, and see how he plans to get another backup PG.

RIght now, I really don't like it.

shags
02-15-2006, 09:13 PM
Start pointing and laughing. :shakehead

Pacersfan46
02-15-2006, 09:21 PM
Actually, Darko's only 20. Won't be 21 till the summer.



1st of all, both guays are infinately more NBA-ready than Darko.

Rudy Gay is the best SF prospect not named LeBron James in the last decade. We would FIND a place for him.

2ndly, Lamarcus Aldrige is another damn good prospect I'd like to have on this team. I also have confidence he'd beat out McDyess in a year.

I was thinking the same thing about Aldrige. He was the player I thought your team would want the most. As Ben Wallace slows, LaMarcus picks up the slack.

I'll be highly pissed.

Grant
02-15-2006, 09:22 PM
This shows that even the best GM's whiff occasionally.

Donnie missed on Bender, but that looks like a great pick next to the Darko draft.

Wade, Carmelo, and Bosh were the next 3 picks. At least the Bender draft was weak.

Dumars is one of the best though.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 09:23 PM
the irony is, Darko was going to go #2 no matter who was drafting.

Denver offered the #3 pick and any player on ther roster but Nene to move up to #2 and get Darko instead of Carmello.

SoupIsGood
02-15-2006, 09:25 PM
So a 2007 pick? Any protections?

Kstat
02-15-2006, 09:26 PM
So a 2007 pick? Any protections?

top-5 protected, unprotected in 2008.

shags
02-15-2006, 09:26 PM
So a 2007 pick? Any protections?

Supposedly Top 5. This trade's so bad, not even KStat can spin it in the Piston's favor.

Pacersfan46
02-15-2006, 09:26 PM
That does give Orlando a potential front court of Darko, Howard, and Fran Vazquez .... if they had taken Granger instead of Vazquez .... that would look like a possible great front court. Still could with Vazquez, but who knows what he'll look like when he gets here.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 09:28 PM
Supposedly Top 5. This trade's so bad, not even KStat can spin it in the Piston's favor.


Depends what we flip Cato for.

I'll pass final judgement on the deal next thursday.

Pacersfan46
02-15-2006, 09:30 PM
You can't judge it already. Who's to say Greg Oden doesn't stay for a Soph season, and Orlando continues to suck and in 2008 Detroit gets Greg Oden?!

Impossible to judge at this point.

shags
02-15-2006, 09:35 PM
You can't judge it already. Who's to say Greg Oden doesn't stay for a Soph season, and Orlando continues to suck and in 2008 Detroit gets Greg Oden?!

Impossible to judge at this point.

That's the ironic thing. I'm definitely of the opinion that Oden will stay more than one season at Ohio State. I'm sure the Magic were thinking that making the trade.

Kstat
02-15-2006, 09:41 PM
That's the ironic thing. I'm definitely of the opinion that Oden will stay more than one season at Ohio State. I'm sure the Magic were thinking that making the trade.

If they were thinking that, then why did they make our pick unprotected in 2008?

Pacersfan46
02-15-2006, 09:43 PM
Maybe he thought it was 06/07 ... like I did at first.

shags
02-15-2006, 09:49 PM
If they were thinking that, then why did they make our pick unprotected in 2008?

I said that wrong. I'm sure the Magic are thinking Oden will come out after one season. I don't think he will.

shags
02-15-2006, 10:12 PM
Depends what we flip Cato for.

I'll pass final judgement on the deal next thursday.

KStat, I'm going to go on record right now for you and say the Pistons aren't trading Cato. This was a salary dump so the Pistons could sign Ben without going over the luxury tax.

Slick Pinkham
02-15-2006, 10:43 PM
This shows that even the best GM's whiff occasionally.

Donnie missed on Bender, but that looks like a great pick next to the Darko draft.

Wade, Carmelo, and Bosh were the next 3 picks. At least the Bender draft was weak.

Dumars is one of the best though.

The 1999 draft was one of the 3 or 4 best in the last 25 years:

1. Elton Brand
2. Steve Francis
3. Baron Davis
4. Lamar Odom
5. Jonathan Bender (um... this one sticks out...)
6. Wally Szczerbiak
7. Richard Hamilton
8. Andre Miller
9. Shawn Marion
10. Jason Terry

Later in the first round, you also had Maggette, Artest, Posey, Jeff Foster, Kenny Thomas and AK47.

And of course, Ginobili in the 2nd round.

rexnom
02-15-2006, 10:49 PM
The 1999 draft was one of the 3 or 4 best in the last 25 years:

1. Elton Brand
2. Steve Francis
3. Baron Davis
4. Lamar Odom
5. Jonathan Bender (um... this one sticks out...)
6. Wally Szczerbiak
7. Richard Hamilton
8. Andre Miller
9. Shawn Marion
10. Jason Terry

Later in the first round, you also had Maggette, Artest, Posey, Jeff Foster, Kenny Thomas and AK47.

And of course, Ginobili in the 2nd round.

Thanks...just made me feel lots better. A whole lot better. Just kidding.

About the Darko year tho, there were a whole bunch of other players outside of that amazing top five that people forget. Check this link: http://nbadraft.net/2003.asp . The first real bust in the first round was Reece Gaines. And later there were an incredible amount of gems after the lottery that we are seeing just now...like Boris Diaw, David West, or the aforementioned Carlos Delfino.

Pacersfan46
02-15-2006, 11:18 PM
Thanks...just made me feel lots better. A whole lot better. Just kidding.

About the Darko year tho, there were a whole bunch of other players outside of that amazing top five that people forget. Check this link: http://nbadraft.net/2003.asp . The first real bust in the first round was Reece Gaines. And later there were an incredible amount of gems after the lottery that we are seeing just now...like Boris Diaw, David West, or the aforementioned Carlos Delfino.

And you left out Josh Howard, James Jones, and Kyle Korver.

WTH was Rick Rickert thinking coming out of college as a Soph? Just curious. :laugh:

FreshPrince22
02-15-2006, 11:36 PM
This is awful untill Dumars spins Cato's contract into a solid backup PG. If he doesn't then it will be his worst move since drafting Darko to begin with.

SoupIsGood
02-15-2006, 11:37 PM
I don't get what is so bad about it?

One player you never play and one decent player that doesn't really fit for a somewhat high draft pick and cap relief?

What am I missing?

sweabs
02-15-2006, 11:43 PM
I don't get what is so bad about it?

One player you never play and one decent player that doesn't really fit for a somewhat high draft pick and cap relief?

What am I missing?

Well, there is always that possibility that the Magic turn things around next year. They could pick up a nice player in this years draft with a high pick, Darko could finally come into his own, and Dwight Howard could become an even bigger beast than he already is? Which would leave the Pistons with potentially, a lower pick than expected?

Not saying it will happen, but it's just a possibility.

SoupIsGood
02-15-2006, 11:46 PM
Well, there is always that possibility that the Magic turn things around next year. They could pick up a nice player in this years draft with a high pick, Darko could finally come into his own, and Dwight Howard could become an even bigger beast than he already is? Which would leave the Pistons with potentially, a lower pick than expected?

Not saying it will happen, but it's just a possibility.

Yeah, Darko could break out, but it was pretty obvious he wasn't going to with the Pistons. I don't think they came out of it too badly.

sweabs
02-15-2006, 11:53 PM
Yeah, Darko could break out, but it was pretty obvious he wasn't going to with the Pistons. I don't think they came out of it too badly.

I'm talking about the overall impact it could have on their pick though. I know, it would take a lot - but the potential is there.

rel
02-15-2006, 11:59 PM
ok...so i never really understood that top-5 draft pick protection..

does that mean if pistons happen to get a top 5 pick, it would just goto orlando?

Kegboy
02-16-2006, 12:21 AM
You can't judge it already. Who's to say Greg Oden doesn't stay for a Soph season, and Orlando continues to suck and in 2008 Detroit gets Greg Oden?!

Impossible to judge at this point.

If that were to happen, I think I might just kill myself.

grace
02-16-2006, 12:43 AM
If that were to happen, I think I might just kill myself.

I might have to kill you too.

Kegboy
02-16-2006, 12:50 AM
I might have to kill you too.

Where's that "report post to admin" button?

:-p

GO!!!!!
02-16-2006, 12:50 AM
ok...so i never really understood that top-5 draft pick protection..

does that mean if pistons happen to get a top 5 pick, it would just goto orlando?

It means if Orlando's pick is in the top five they keep it and Detroiet gets there 2007 Pick no strings attached, if the pick is 6 or higher then Detroiet gets it now and we call it a trade complete...

ChicagoJ
02-16-2006, 01:25 AM
Where's that "report post to admin" button?

:-p

I'm staying out of this one. And tell your sister for me, please. Something tells me she can't read anything I type.

Brian
02-16-2006, 01:54 AM
Who says that this new guy they get in the draft doesnt end up like Darko?. I mean,why mess with a good starting lineup?.

BabbleOn
02-16-2006, 02:34 AM
This is awful untill Dumars spins Cato's contract into a solid backup PG. If he doesn't then it will be his worst move since drafting Darko to begin with.

How do you figure? Dump two guys that give you little to nothing for cap relief and another shot at the draft? Man, if anyone thinks DMC is worth more than that, you're just...wrong. You're Isiah Thomas.

granger
02-16-2006, 08:16 AM
WDFN radio says Joe has told Orlando that he wants their 2006 pick unprotected, or he's going to peddle Darko elsewhere.

Atta boy, Joe.
:rolleyes:

:violin:


I think Delfino's potential is much on a similiar level as Danny Granger's. He's shown flashes of being a terriffic all-around player, with a very strong defensive presence.

And the more PT Delfino gets, the more he's going to show. He's DEFINATELY got more talent than that of a "role player."

Both players were also similiarly passed up in the draft.

:rolleyes:
:lol2:

DisplacedKnick
02-16-2006, 10:06 AM
I just hope this deal kills the Stevie Francis to the Knicks crap.

Probably won't though - just what we need, him and Marbury "distributing" the ball.

Slick Pinkham
02-16-2006, 10:18 AM
I just hope this deal kills the Stevie Francis to the Knicks crap.

Probably won't though - just what we need, him and Marbury "distributing" the ball.

I'd like it. These trades keep the Knicks entertaining, in a "Titanic" /"Jackass" / "Jerry Springer Show" kind of way.

It's so hard not to look at a train wreck, and Isiah just keeps 'em comin'

SwissExpress
02-16-2006, 10:52 AM
Orlando has suddenly become one of the most interesting teams to follow. Fran, Darko, Grant Hill. If everything is anywhere close to fine with them, in several years Miami won't be Florida's strongest team anymore. Imagine Nowitzki (a developed Darko), Garnett (a developed Howard), Chris Kaman (a developed and willing to play Vasquez) and at least half-healthy Hill on one team...

I understand that those expectation for Darko, Howard and Fran might end up as way to high, but it's good to have smth to dream on. It's Magic afterall.

Rytas_Jega
02-16-2006, 11:22 AM
Orlando has suddenly become one of the most interesting teams to follow. Fran, Darko, Grant Hill. If everything is anywhere close to fine with them, in several years Miami won't be Florida's strongest team anymore. Imagine Nowitzki (a developed Darko), Garnett (a developed Howard), Chris Kaman (a developed and willing to play Vasquez) and at least half-healthy Hill on one team...

I understand that those expectation for Darko, Howard and Fran might end up as way to high, but it's good to have smth to dream on. It's Magic afterall.

Fran could play at NBA level player right now. There're many other frontline players in Europe who could play in NBA, many much more skilled than Rashos and Johans or even Pollards.

Grant
02-16-2006, 11:32 AM
The 1999 draft was one of the 3 or 4 best in the last 25 years:

1. Elton Brand
2. Steve Francis
3. Baron Davis
4. Lamar Odom
5. Jonathan Bender (um... this one sticks out...)
6. Wally Szczerbiak
7. Richard Hamilton
8. Andre Miller
9. Shawn Marion
10. Jason Terry

Later in the first round, you also had Maggette, Artest, Posey, Jeff Foster, Kenny Thomas and AK47.

And of course, Ginobili in the 2nd round.
Frankly there is not a star in the bunch. Its a solid bunch of tier 2 players.

1998 had Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Pierce, and Vince Carter
1997 had Tim Duncan and Tracy McGrady
1996 had Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, and Ray Allen
1995 had Kevin Garnett
1994 had Jason Kidd and Grant Hill

These were/are all Tier 1 superstars. The 1999 draft, at second glance, is pretty solid, but unspectalular

Its probably to early to tell for the 2000 - 2004 drafts ('01 and '02 aren't looking too good), but the 2003 draft might end up as the best draft we've had in a loooong time.

Anthem
02-16-2006, 11:32 AM
FThere're many other frontline players in Europe who could play in NBA, many much more skilled than Rashos and Johans or even Pollards.
More skilled than Pollard? Is that even possible? :D

Hint: Pollard's a good player, but "skill" isn't his primary attribute. He bangs and rebounds. Not many European frontliners can do that.

SwissExpress
02-16-2006, 12:06 PM
Fran could play at NBA level player right now. There're many other frontline players in Europe who could play in NBA, many much more skilled than Rashos and Johans or even Pollards.

Yes, though he still has a way to go. He's still not way above other Euroleague PFs, and deffinitely not dominating. In my opinion, Rasho was even more important in Europe before he came to NBA than Fran is now.

However, I do believe in Fran. I think he will be one of those few European exceptions who are very strong, can rebound very well and defend quite well (for their composition), while being only an average scorer. He reminds me of Kaman in this respect.

Personally, I think that Scola is the most NBA-ready Euroleague frontline player now. Vujcic might be good there too; however, it's hard for me to say as he usually underperforms every time I see Maccabi play:) As well as Splitter and Lorbek, by the way...

Rytas_Jega
02-16-2006, 12:16 PM
More skilled than Pollard? Is that even possible? :D

Hint: Pollard's a good player, but "skill" isn't his primary attribute. He bangs and rebounds. Not many European frontliners can do that.

I exactly meant "skilled" players, Gasol, Ilgauskas, Kirilenko, Nowitzki type players. Players like Nikola Vujcic, David Anderson, Lazaros Papadopoulos, Lavrinovic twins, Luis Scola are still in Europe. I believe they have enough talent to do overall much better than those "bangers and rebounders" in NBA.

There are some Oberto type players at highest European level, too.

Moses
02-16-2006, 02:03 PM
Frankly there is not a star in the bunch. Its a solid bunch of tier 2 players.

1998 had Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Pierce, and Vince Carter
1997 had Tim Duncan and Tracy McGrady
1996 had Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, and Ray Allen
1995 had Kevin Garnett
1994 had Jason Kidd and Grant Hill

These were/are all Tier 1 superstars. The 1999 draft, at second glance, is pretty solid, but unspectalular

Its probably to early to tell for the 2000 - 2004 drafts ('01 and '02 aren't looking too good), but the 2003 draft might end up as the best draft we've had in a loooong time.
Are you kidding me?

Elton Brand isn't a superstar?

Shawn Marion isn't a superstar? What NBA are you watching?

Grant
02-16-2006, 02:54 PM
Are you kidding me?

Elton Brand isn't a superstar?

Shawn Marion isn't a superstar? What NBA are you watching?

Well I hate to respond, because this thread has already gone off on a few different tangents, but to me a superstar is one of the top 10 or so players. Elton Brand is not even in the top 20, and Shawn Marion, while a talented and solid player (and better than Brand), is only the 3rd best player on his team.

Look at the players, I pointed out from the previous drafts, nobody from 1999 is in that category.

Since86
02-16-2006, 03:11 PM
Well I hate to respond, because this thread has already gone off on a few different tangents, but to me a superstar is one of the top 10 or so players. Elton Brand is not even in the top 20, and Shawn Marion, while a talented and solid player (and better than Brand), is only the 3rd best player on his team.

Look at the players, I pointed out from the previous drafts, nobody from 1999 is in that category.


That draft produced the TOP 2 best two-way players in the league, in Ron and AK47.

You're really digging yourself a hole with your above argument, considering you listed 11 players with the tag was/is superstars.

PP hasn't been a top ten player. Although he might have the best shot, Ray Allen hasn't been a top ten player. Were they top 15-20? Yes, but it's a stretch to say top 10. Some of the others barely break the top 10 as well.

Plus, out of the 17 players he listed in that draft, 8 have been all-stars. That's quite a number for a draft that you're saying wasn't loaded.

Anthem
02-16-2006, 03:38 PM
I exactly meant "skilled" players, Gasol, Ilgauskas, Kirilenko, Nowitzki type players. Players like Nikola Vujcic, David Anderson, Lazaros Papadopoulos, Lavrinovic twins, Luis Scola are still in Europe. I believe they have enough talent to do overall much better than those "bangers and rebounders" in NBA.
I'm not sure where you're going with this.

All I'm saying is that "more skilled than Pollard" isn't a high mark to set.

Pollard is strong and fundamentally sound. He's as good of a man-to-man defender as you'll find besides Big Ben, and he's a very solid rebounder. He plays with energy. He makes a difference when he's on the court.

And for the past three years, he's been on our third string, even when healthy.

Fireball Kid
02-16-2006, 04:30 PM
Well I hate to respond, because this thread has already gone off on a few different tangents, but to me a superstar is one of the top 10 or so players. Elton Brand is not even in the top 20, and Shawn Marion, while a talented and solid player (and better than Brand), is only the 3rd best player on his team.

Look at the players, I pointed out from the previous drafts, nobody from 1999 is in that category.

Shawn Marion averages nearly 21 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 bpg and 2 spg and all you can say is that hes talented and solid??:-o

And Elton Brand is second in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking Per 48 Minutes. I think there both a little better than solid.

Grant
02-16-2006, 04:52 PM
That draft produced the TOP 2 best two-way players in the league, in Ron and AK47.

You're really digging yourself a hole with your above argument, considering you listed 11 players with the tag was/is superstars.

PP hasn't been a top ten player. Although he might have the best shot, Ray Allen hasn't been a top ten player. Were they top 15-20? Yes, but it's a stretch to say top 10. Some of the others barely break the top 10 as well.

Plus, out of the 17 players he listed in that draft, 8 have been all-stars. That's quite a number for a draft that you're saying wasn't loaded.

Well we may just have to agree to disagree.

I stand by the belief that the 1999 yielded a lot of solid players but was weaker than the 5 previous drafts in that no superstars came out of it.

Maybe Ray Allen and Paul Pierce were not ever in the "top 10 or so" but they were closer than anybody from 1999 (Allen was 9th in the MVP voting just last year, while Pierce finished in the top 13 for 3 years straight).

As for all-stars, a lot of solid players make it to the all star game for a variety of reasons.

But my original comparison was to compare 2003 with 1999. While Donnie missed in an average draft, Joe D missed in a very loaded draft (especially the top 5 picks)

Grant
02-16-2006, 05:02 PM
Shawn Marion averages nearly 21 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 bpg and 2 spg and all you can say is that hes talented and solid??:-o

And Elton Brand is second in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking Per 48 Minutes. I think there both a little better than solid.

I'm just saying that I don't consider either of them to be a superstar. I actually like Marion's game, I just think he's a second tier guy.

I've never been a fan of Elton Brand for some reason, I guess I thought of him as being a 20/10 guy on a bunch of bad teams. But this is his best year yet and his team is good, so what do I know.

Merz
02-16-2006, 05:21 PM
Are you kidding me?

Elton Brand isn't a superstar?

Brand does not matter. The original arguement was about Pacers passing up players for Bender. Brand was already drafted. But the Pacers did pass up Hamilton, Marion, Terry among others.

Detroit passed up everyone but LeBron James when they drafted Darko in a stronger (not saying '99 wasn't strong) draft.

Rytas_Jega
02-16-2006, 05:25 PM
I'm not sure where you're going with this.

All I'm saying is that "more skilled than Pollard" isn't a high mark to set.

Pollard is strong and fundamentally sound. He's as good of a man-to-man defender as you'll find besides Big Ben, and he's a very solid rebounder. He plays with energy. He makes a difference when he's on the court.

And for the past three years, he's been on our third string, even when healthy.

Oh, that is my bad. It had to be "many skilled players who are better than Rashos and Johans or even Pollards."

I saw how NBA star Mehmet obviously lost duels against Vujcic, Lavrinovič twins and even Bulgarian Mladenov, who is far from European elite, last summer.

Btw, I have nothing against Scott Pollard. I just suppose there are several 4-5 position players in Europe who could start at some NBA teams.

Since86
02-16-2006, 05:31 PM
Well we may just have to agree to disagree.

I stand by the belief that the 1999 yielded a lot of solid players but was weaker than the 5 previous drafts in that no superstars came out of it.

Maybe Ray Allen and Paul Pierce were not ever in the "top 10 or so" but they were closer than anybody from 1999 (Allen was 9th in the MVP voting just last year, while Pierce finished in the top 13 for 3 years straight).

As for all-stars, a lot of solid players make it to the all star game for a variety of reasons.

But my original comparison was to compare 2003 with 1999. While Donnie missed in an average draft, Joe D missed in a very loaded draft (especially the top 5 picks)

I'm just at a loss of words when you're telling me that no players from that draft have been closer to the top 10 than Ray Allen or PP, considering Ron is a top 10 player, and I emphasize player.

Not to mention Ginobli, who should of been the finals MVP last year.

I just can't get over you listing three at the most from one draft and calling it a better one than the top 10 of the '99. Middle guys make the stronger draft, not the top.

rel
02-16-2006, 05:33 PM
Well I hate to respond, because this thread has already gone off on a few different tangents, but to me a superstar is one of the top 10 or so players. Elton Brand is not even in the top 20, and Shawn Marion, while a talented and solid player (and better than Brand), is only the 3rd best player on his team.

Look at the players, I pointed out from the previous drafts, nobody from 1999 is in that category.


...99% of the nba would be, at most, the 3rd best player behind steve nash and amare

plus, some could make a very good argument that shawn is more important that amare

shawn marion = superstar to me

Pacersfan46
02-16-2006, 06:56 PM
Since we're dreaming about the drafts .....

Imagine we take Marion, instead of Bender. Then take Arenas, instead of Tinsley. Dreaming is nice, isn't it?

Kegboy
02-16-2006, 08:24 PM
:twocents:, I look at a "superstar" as someone who transcends the sport, ie someone whom those who don't follow basketball know of. I don't see Brand or Marion fitting that description.

SwissExpress
02-16-2006, 08:56 PM
:twocents:, I look at a "superstar" as someone who transcends the sport, ie someone whom those who don't follow basketball know of. I don't see Brand or Marion fitting that description.

The best definition of a superstar I've ever read.

Anthem
02-17-2006, 12:25 AM
:twocents:, I look at a "superstar" as someone who transcends the sport, ie someone whom those who don't follow basketball know of. I don't see Brand or Marion fitting that description.
That's fine. I can go with that.

But by that logic, most drafts don't have a superstar. So that particular draft can't be faulted.

grace
02-17-2006, 12:50 PM
Since we're dreaming about the drafts .....

Imagine we take Marion, instead of Bender. Then take Arenas, instead of Tinsley. Dreaming is nice, isn't it?

You'd have to dream up a different training staff because if you don't any player is at risk.

Anthem
02-17-2006, 01:05 PM
I saw how NBA star Mehmet
First off, Mehmet's not a star. He's getting 17ppg for a wretched Utah team.

Second, who played better in Europe 5 years ago has nothing to do with what they can do in the NBA.

That being said, I don't doubt there some bigs in Europe that could play in the NBA.

Anthem
02-17-2006, 01:05 PM
You'd have to dream up a different training staff because if you don't any player is at risk.
Yeah, that's where I'm at too.

Kegboy
02-17-2006, 02:01 PM
That's fine. I can go with that.

But by that logic, most drafts don't have a superstar. So that particular draft can't be faulted.

Oh, I agree.

jcouts
02-19-2006, 12:36 PM
Are you f'n kidding me????


God D@mn how does Dumars do this time after time?

Orlando's 1st round pick & Cato for two bench players one of which never sees the light of day.

Laugh at you, are you kidding me. I might point a finger in your direction but it will not be the index finger pointing your way.

Unreal. Just exactly what Detroit needs a high draft choice.

I'm right with you man...I don't know how Dumars does it. You get cap space, and a chance to cover up the mistake you made in drafting Darko...this by getting rid of a guy who had one good game in his career (Puerto Rico vs US), and a guy who has no basketball instinct, and never will have any true basketball instinct...Stuart Gray is about all Darko will ever be.

ghost
02-20-2006, 03:47 AM
I'm going personally wish Darko all the best, just to negate all his doubters and haters. Young kid got into this crazy circus, instead he should be living with his mama and papa and eating good home cooked meals.
Late, going to sleep.

:goodnight

CableKC
02-20-2006, 04:08 AM
to tell you the truth.....he may at least be acceptable if given the minutes. In all the years that he has been in Detroit....he's been stuck behind the Wallace Brothers and a whole mess of Big men that Brown played ahead of him simply cuz he didn't want to play him.

Was he worth the #2 spot? definitely not...he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. He should have simply waited a season to be drafted by a different team that would have actually played him.

Besides....this is the 2005 season....anyone that is traded gets a new slate in their NBA life.

Kstat
02-20-2006, 04:45 AM
I wish Darko all the best, and hope that he finds the desire and heart to become a real NBA player, which is something he never had here.

In the meantime, I'll be looking forward to what we can do with Orlando's pick and a large expiring contract. Joe's managed to make good on his previous two 1st-round busts (Cleaves, White) let's see what he can do with this.

ghost
02-21-2006, 09:47 PM
... and hope that he finds the desire and heart to become a real NBA player, which is something he never had here.

I hope he doesn't have star looking for cojones, otherwise that would be a sad story.:D

Angle
02-26-2006, 06:57 AM
I think Delfino's potential is much on a similiar level as Danny Granger's.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Let's see....

Danny Granger is an ultra athletic 6-9 small forward with great handles who can hit the 3, the midrange J, or score inside. He's already one of the better defenders in the league 50 games into his career. And ofcourse the icing on the cake is the fact that hes shown the abilty to be at, or very near, a double-figures rebounder.

Carlos Delfino is a 6-6 shooting guard who can't shoot. 39/29/62. That's not Shaq's measurements. Thats Delfino's career shooting percentages, from the field, free trow line, and downtown, respectively. Quite possibly the only sub-40/30/65 player in the league. He's also a sub-par rebounder who averages almost as many turnovers as he does assists.

So yes, I think we all can agree Danny Granger and Carlos Delfino are equal prospects. I think we can all also agree LaMarcus Aldridge and Jason Maxiell are equal prospects, as are OJ Mayo and Alex Acker. :laugh:
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SwissExpress
02-26-2006, 08:05 AM
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Let's see....

Danny Granger is an ultra athletic 6-9 small forward with great handles who can hit the 3, the midrange J, or score inside. He's already one of the better defenders in the league 50 games into his career. And ofcourse the icing on the cake is the fact that hes shown the abilty to be at, or very near, a double-figures rebounder.

Carlos Delfino is a 6-6 shooting guard who can't shoot. 39/29/62. That's not Shaq's measurements. Thats Delfino's career shooting percentages, from the field, free trow line, and downtown, respectively. Quite possibly the only sub-40/30/65 player in the league. He's also a sub-par rebounder who averages almost as many turnovers as he does assists.

So yes, I think we all can agree Danny Granger and Carlos Delfino are equal prospects. I think we can all also agree LaMarcus Aldridge and Jason Maxiell are equal prospects, as are OJ Mayo and Alex Acker. :laugh:


I just read a great article on methodology of measuring potential. One of the ideas I liked - you can't rely on stats while judging rookie's/sophomore's potential if he plays less than 500 minutes per year. Because if a young player gets less time it usualy means that he either plays garbage time, when competitiveness is low, or is pulled out after first mistakes or missed shots. In both cases, his numbers would look worse than could be.

That's the basic fault of your argumentation above. While it's to a certain extent possible to rely on numbers while measuring Granger - he played over 1000 minutes this season already - it's hardly possible to do that with Delfino. He played below 500 last year (missed 52 games out of 82) and has only reached 500 mark for this season yesterday. Delfino is currently significantly improving (as regards percentages, per minute stats, and consistency). You may remember that it was the same with Granger's numbers when he started climbing above the 500 mark a little less than two monthes ago.

I never liked Delfino when he played in Europe, because he seemed too cocky for a player who never won anything significant. But he's very talented. In NBA, he played in a very talented team that never really had any problems at his position (as opposed to Granger and Pacers). He's young and is only starting to make significant impact for Pistons; I would say this month was the best for him so far.

All in all, that comparison is not so wrong as you might suppose. We should wait till Delfino's a bit over the 500 mark, however, to be able to rely on stats. Maybe a month or two. Till then - in persons who see him play we should trust;)