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pizza guy
02-12-2006, 04:31 PM
that Rick Carlisle lost this game. With substitutions at approximately the 4:00 minute mark taking Sarunas and Peja out, then Freddie Jones a little later. Those three were the most instrumental in the lead that the Pacers had gotten, and they all sat down. AJ and SJax came back in, and from that moment on, the lead began to shrink, then vanished, and we lost.

Brilliant Carlisle, brilliant.

indytoad
02-12-2006, 04:32 PM
At least all the false hope will be squashed early on. Better that way.

IndyToad
My problem

piksi
02-12-2006, 04:47 PM
definitely overcoached

Jermaniac
02-12-2006, 04:48 PM
Good coaching today, GREAT JOB MAN. Really I mean look at the great coaching moves.

Sarunas was playing great, built up a 7 point lead. He takes him out with 5 left in the 4th and he doesnt see the game AGAIN. GREAT JOB COACH.

Peja hits 2 straight jumpers to build a 2 point lead to 7. What does he do? He takes Peja out for 3 **** minutes. Peja comes back with 2 minutes left, DOES NOT TOUCH THE BALL. Not shoot it, TOUCH IT HE DOESNT TOUCH IT.

Last shot of the game, he calls a iso for Jack. Okay? I dont blame Jack it was called for him and he took the shot, it was stupid but the play was called.

Why didnt Peja get the damn shot? Jack was struggling and you should have tryed to go through someone else.

Great job once again Ricky, your great coaching never stops. You are just the man. Keep on **** this team up buddy.

JO will come back and we will go back to the same offense that lost us 6 games in a row, because thats how Rick rolls. And all of you will blame Jermaine.

Horrible coach who cant adjust to anything, he sits in his office and he writes down on a piece of paper when he will take players out of the game.

Lets see you Carlisle kids explain how great of a coach he is now. HE LOST THIS GAME. HE DID IT.

Lord Helmet
02-12-2006, 04:48 PM
At least all the false hope will be squashed early on. Better that way.

IndyToad
My problem
:rolleyes:

Seriously. Stop it.

sweabs
02-12-2006, 04:50 PM
I think there were some wacky substitution calls down the stretch, so I agree.

I certainly didn't see the dire need to put Jackson back into the game, who committed some awfully bad defensive errors in the closing minutes. Bowen hit 2 jumpers very close to the rim, and Ginobili was given a wide open look with the shot clock expiring. When the shot clock is expiring, there is just one rule - close out on your man. I don't care if he's shooting from his own end of the court; don't give him any chance. That 3 pointer (with the technical free throw before that) really swung the momentum in the Spurs favour in my opinion. That was the dagger.

I'm also wondering if it was a wise decision to take Sarunas out of the game as well? I was liking what Sarunas and Peja were doing out there...a lot moreso than AJ & Jackson.

I was just mostly left scratching my head at some of the sub calls - I really didn't see much need for some of them.

SoupIsGood
02-12-2006, 04:50 PM
That was just inexcusably bad. If he can't see to keep those five guys on the floor to finish the game, how do we expect to win big games in the playoffs with this guy? I just hope he doesn't keep pulling that crap, but he has already done it plenty of times this season.... :kickcan:

Aw Heck
02-12-2006, 04:50 PM
Carlisle was definitely a factor in the loss. He took out Peja, Saras, and Freddie with about 4:00 to go, even though they were on fire and playing great. AJ and Jack killed what momentum we had.

Someone needs to teach Jack how to play within the offense. The reason Jack played so well the last few games was because he let the offense come to him. This game, he kept forcing up the most horrible shots he could. They resulted in turnovers, and just overall wasted possessions. There is no reason for him to be getting iso's at the end of the game with the game he was having. Nothing good would (or did) come out of it. Oh and the fact that he didn't play any defense didn't help either. Horrible game overall for Jack.

waterjater
02-12-2006, 04:52 PM
i have to agree. GDIT what a ****ing disgusting way to lose a game we deserved to win!!!!!!!!!!!

diamonddave00
02-12-2006, 04:53 PM
My exact thoughts Peja Stojakovic has to at least touch the ball down the stretch, on top of his being the teams best shooter , he is 90%+ foul shooter. We have heard Sarunas Jasikevicus is clutch - that said why was Sarunas sitting and Peja ignored down the stretch????

Sorry Rick Carlisle is a good coach but in my opinion his use of his personal late was very poor and cost the Pacers a game they should have won.

317Kim
02-12-2006, 04:54 PM
i have to agree. GDIT what a ****ing disgusting way to lose a game we deserved to win!!!!!!!!!!!

We worked too hard to lose that one. They stole it. :kickcan:
That substitution was possible the worst choice he could have made at the moment.

Jermaniac
02-12-2006, 04:55 PM
That was just inexcusably bad. If he can't see to keep those five guys on the floor to finish the game, how do we expect to win big games in the playoffs with this guy? I just hope he doesn't keep pulling that crap, but he has already done it plenty of times this season.... :kickcan:Soup dont say that. Man you need to grow up, if you blame the The Holy God Rick Carlisle you are not grown. To grow up in life you have to kiss Rick's *** and worship the ground he walks on, dont forget its Jermaine O'Neal's fault we lost today, not enough dancing from JO today.

hoopsforlife
02-12-2006, 04:57 PM
I have to admit I was wrong. When we had the 7 point lead I mentioned to Pizza Guy that if Carlisle takes out Sarunas and puts in AJ and Jackson at the 4 minute mark we would lose by 10 points. We only lost by 4. I was so wrong and I admit it.

Now is Carlisle would just admit he was wrong all would be well again. sheesh :(

indytoad
02-12-2006, 04:58 PM
Anyway, I assume Rick did it for defensive reasons, as he is wont to do, being the conservative coach. Although I don't think SA failed to score on any of their possessions in the last three minutes, so it obviously didn't work. If we had a good team it may have worked, but with the crew we have you need to go into and out of the game firing.

IndyToad
A press release

sweabs
02-12-2006, 04:59 PM
Part of the reason we won that Detroit game was because down the stretch, Carlisle was playing for the win, instead of playing "not to lose".

In the last few minutes of the game, I was getting the impression that Carlisle had reverted back to his old ways; playing "not to lose"...and that didn't exactly work out.

waterjater
02-12-2006, 04:59 PM
87-81...we lose 92-88 from Game thread.

And this is why Rick lost the game AGAIN!! for us! How many times is he going to take out a cohesive lineup that is playing great defense AND SCORING AT THE SAME TIME....to put in a defensive lineup to close the game.

DUMB **** AGAIN!!!!! IF we keep scoring while playing good (not great) defense, we WIN. Score ONE FRICKING point to end the game with your "defensive unit" and YOU LOSE!!

And yet, once again, our defensive line up CONTINUES to give up points....so what the hell is the point of putting in your defensive unit!!!! If THEY CAN"T STOP ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

frickin idiot coach

CableKC
02-12-2006, 04:59 PM
I wonder if Carlisle's tendency to pull out the "hot offensive" player is a result of him deciding to put in more defensive minded players in hopes of holding the lead.

I'm not saying its the right thing...I'm just saying that I've seen that before.

Bball
02-12-2006, 05:00 PM
I've thought Carlisle has played Sarunas a little 'short' in the last few games. Today it bit us. Sarunas has been in a bit of a slump lately so Carlisle got away with putting him on a short leash but today he was having a good game and deserved to stay in during the 4th qtr IMHO. To get the maximum benefit from a player like Sarunas, Carlisle is going to have to live with some things.

I thought Harrison could've gotten more minutes as well.

I don't think AJ was playing bad but today he was nothing special either. I suppose Carlisle would argue he had to pull Sarunas for defensive reasons during the last minutes of the game. That type of use of Sarunas, and when JO returns and going back to the JO ISOball game, will be why this is Carlisle's last season :eek:

I don't think he and Bird are on the same page. It's just a feeling I am getting from their comments. I'm not all that confident in my above prediction... But if we see us going back to JO ISOball upon his return then I'll feel fairly confident in that prediction (and I feel fairly confident we'll be going that direction because that is Rick's 'thing').

That all said... I don't have too many complaints about today. It was a close, competitive game. The defending champs had the moxie down the stretch to pull it out. Once again we played some good basketball without JO in the lineup.

No longer than this team has been together it isn't an embarassment to lose to the defending champs in the closing seconds. It was a shame though... because we had this game. I can't say we were outcoached... we were overcoached is more like it. Pop didn't do anything special to win... he let us lose it.

-Bball

pizza guy
02-12-2006, 05:04 PM
I've thought Carlisle has played Sarunas a little 'short' in the last few games. Today it bit us. Sarunas has been in a bit of a slump lately so Carlisle got away with putting him on a short leash but today he was having a good game and deserved to stay in during the 4th qtr IMHO. To get the maximum benefit from a player like Sarunas, Carlisle is going to have to live with some things.

I thought Harrison could've gotten more minutes as well.

I don't think AJ was playing bad but today he was nothing special either. I suppose Carlisle would argue he had to pull Sarunas for defensive reasons during the last minutes of the game. That type of use of Sarunas, and when JO returns and going back to the JO ISOball game, will be why this is Carlisle's last season :eek:

I don't think he and Bird are on the same page. It's just a feeling I am getting from their comments. I'm not all that confident in my above prediction... But if we see us going back to JO ISOball upon his return then I'll feel fairly confident in that prediction (and I feel fairly confident we'll be going that direction because that is Rick's 'thing').

That all said... I don't have too many complaints about today. It was a close, competitive game. The defending champs had the moxie down the stretch to pull it out. Once again we played some good basketball without JO in the lineup.

No longer than this team has been together it isn't an embarassment to lose to the defending champs in the closing seconds. It was a shame though... because we had this game.

-Bball

Yes, if RC goes back to the ISO ball again, it'll be time to show him the door.

waterjater
02-12-2006, 05:07 PM
I suppose Carlisle would argue he had to pull Sarunas for defensive reasons during the last minutes of the game. That type of use of Sarunas, and when JO returns and going back to the JO ISOball game, will be why this is Carlisle's last season :eek:

I don't think he and Bird are on the same page. It's just a feeling I am getting from their comments. I'm not all that confident in my above prediction... But if we see us going back to JO ISOball upon his return then I'll feel fairly confident in that prediction (and I feel fairly confident we'll be going that direction because that is Rick's 'thing').

-Bball

I believe these comments are right on the money. Larry keeps talking about how much he is enjoying our ball movement and Rick likes the post up crap...and he WILL revert back. Larry also loves Sarunas and his ability to shoot, pass (great anticipation passes) and desire.

Larry should pull a Pat Riley and take over the team!

Water

waterjater
02-12-2006, 05:08 PM
Yes, if RC goes back to the ISO ball again, it'll be time to show him the door.

After the, "at least", 3rd game he's lost this way, the door is probably already open!

And it is a shame! Because if he would just finish the game the same way he coached his team into a big enough lead to win....all would be great!

Outlaw
02-12-2006, 05:09 PM
Part of the reason we won that Detroit game was because down the stretch, Carlisle was playing for the win, instead of playing "not to lose".

In the last few minutes of the game, I was getting the impression that Carlisle had reverted back to his old ways; playing "not to lose"...and that didn't exactly work out.

I agree.I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. All he thinks about is getting stops instead of keeping the pressure on their defense.

Harmonica
02-12-2006, 05:10 PM
Once again we played some good basketball without JO in the lineup.

Really man, it's getting old. We have yet to see how Jermaine will do now that we have the ability to really stretch the floor. Think back to the ECFs to that one game where Cro was knocking down those outside shots and pulling the Wallaces out of the paint so Jermaine and Al could pound away on the inside. Seems to me Jermaine has had to adjust his game because of deficiencies in our shooting and size (and injuries)—he's had to fill a lot of holes; a pretty big burden had been placed on his shoulders. I'd like to see how he performs now that Peja is here and David, Scot and Jeff are stepping it up.

SoupIsGood
02-12-2006, 05:13 PM
Really man, it's getting old. We have yet to see how Jermaine will do now that we have the ability to really stretch the floor. Think back to the ECFs to that one game where Cro was knocking down those outside shots and pulling the Wallaces out of the paint so Jermaine and Al could pound away on the inside. Seems to me Jermaine has had to adjust his game because of deficiencies in our shooting and size (and injuries)—he's had to fill a lot of holes; a pretty big burden had been placed on his shoulders. I'd like to see how he performs now that Peja is here and David, Scot and Jeff are stepping it up.

Yes.

Also, I think this offense needs Jermaine. Too many times do we hit Jeff or some other stiff on a cut to the basket, only to have them screw it up. This offense needs someone who can finish in the post. I think Jermaine will flourish, assuming Rick sticks with this offense....

Pacesetter
02-12-2006, 05:15 PM
We have yet to see how Jermaine will do now that we have the ability to really stretch the floor.

If we'd have had JO today, we would have won this game by 12.

SoupIsGood
02-12-2006, 05:18 PM
All he thinks about is getting stops instead of keeping the pressure on their defense.


I wonder, if we had a contending team, could we actually win it all with a coach that favors defense so highly above offense?

Rick is a great coach, but to win the championship, you need to be a balanced team. Oftentimes, the unbalanced teams go overboard with the scoring and offense at the cost of defense...... but could we have the opposite problem?

317Kim
02-12-2006, 05:19 PM
If we'd have had JO today, we would have won this game by 12.

That little chat we had with JO during the game, 3-6 weeks is the time table..3 to 6..

rexnom
02-12-2006, 05:20 PM
so when is Jermaine getting back? It feels like it's been 20 weeks...say what? We're not even on 3 weeks yet? Oh boy. So is he coming back after 4, 6, 8, or 10 weeks? I thought that last report was 4-6.

ed. thanks for answering my question pacers_gurl...

Bball
02-12-2006, 05:27 PM
I'd like to see how he performs now that Peja is here and David, Scot and Jeff are stepping it up.

Me too...
But we can't ignore we're playing good ball without him. We can't ignore the elephant in the living room. It doesn't mean it is his fault... it doesn't mean it is not. But at some point we'll all need an answer as to 'why' it is. Right now the easy answer is that Rick's been misusing this team (or dealing with a patchwork team) and the addition of Peja will allow JO to take us to another level.

When JO returns I'm sure there will be some answers... and I'm fairly certain there will be some more questions.

-Bball

arenn
02-12-2006, 05:28 PM
Ironic that people say that Carlisle pulled Peja and Sarunas in order to insert a more defensive lineup. Lack of defense down the stretch is what killed us. We failed to stop San Antonio in their last 6-8 real possessions straight. If we'd maintained the defensive level we'd played previously, we win this game.

A few factors that hurt us down the stretch:

1. In inability to get defensive stops down the stretch, including excessive fouling.

2. Carlisle's questionable substitions patterns and late game play calling.

3. Stephen Jackson. That guy is a menace to to society. I'm ok with that to an extent. I don't mind a streak shooter. But what I can't stand is his ball hogging. That guy is a total black hole. With Artest gone, an some restructuring in progress, this is an opportunity to get rid of our attitude cancers, of which Stephen Jackson is clearly the leading one. No way should a guy who refuses to pass be in the game down the stretch.

Unclebuck
02-12-2006, 05:28 PM
Come on PG.

The problem was not the offense the problem was the defense. The Spurs scored on every possession in the last 3 minutes. The Pacers scored enough, but couldn't stop the Spurs without fouling them

The key play was right after Jax hit a three that put the Pacers up 5 with about a minute and a half left, The Pacers get called for a defensive three seconds call, but the back breaker was when the Spurs almost turned the ball over, Manu had the bal, at midcourt with about 4 seconds left he drtibbles into three point range and Jax backs off obviously not realizing that there was no time for anything but a long 3 and manu hit it

4-point play possession, killed us

Unclebuck
02-12-2006, 05:29 PM
Ironic that people say that Carlisle pulled Peja and Sarunas in order to insert a more defensive lineup. Lack of defense down the stretch is what killed us. We failed to stop San Antonio in their last 6-8 real possessions straight. If we'd maintained the defensive level we'd played previously, we win this game.

A few factors that hurt us down the stretch:

1. In inability to get defensive stops down the stretch, including excessive fouling.

2. Carlisle's questionable substitions patterns and late game play calling.

3. Stephen Jackson. That guy is a menace to to society. I'm ok with that to an extent. I don't mind a streak shooter. But what I can't stand is his ball hogging. That guy is a total black hole. With Artest gone, an some restructuring in progress, this is an opportunity to get rid of our attitude cancers, of which Stephen Jackson is clearly the leading one. No way should a guy who refuses to pass be in the game down the stretch.



We were having the same thoughts

SycamoreKen
02-12-2006, 05:29 PM
We need JO back because we have no inside presence to make defenders collapse off of our shooters.

317Kim
02-12-2006, 05:31 PM
Thought UB was talking to me. or was he? :eyebrow:

Bball
02-12-2006, 05:32 PM
I wonder, if we had a contending team, could we actually win it all with a coach that favors defense so highly above offense?

Rick is a great coach, but to win the championship, you need to be a balanced team. Oftentimes, the unbalanced teams go overboard with the scoring and offense at the cost of defense...... but could we have the opposite problem?

You could be onto something.

Someone (I thought it was Ragnar but he said he didn't remember it) said that Carlisle can't coach a 4th qtr to save his life. I filed that comment away because I think it has some potential ring of truth to it.

Rick does seem to go into a 'prevent' mode rather than 'kill' mode at the end of games. He pulls out his safety blanket rather than keeps going with what is working.

Let me add... I think Carlisle made his moves due to defense. I don't think he actually got better defense out of them tho. We got worse defense AND offense than what we'd just had.
-Bball

8.9_seconds
02-12-2006, 05:33 PM
Uggghh.....was anybody else in our, I believe, second last possesion just yelling NO JAX,NOOOO!!!!!!!!!

denyfizle
02-12-2006, 05:33 PM
this is one of those games I told Jermaniac to save his angst over Carlisle for. it was a good game though, and I wish Jack put a lil bit more pressure on Manu when he hit that long 3. when Jack made that 3, I almost wasn't sure if I was going to cheer because I knew he would hoist another one like that not too long with more realistic results. RC should've brought Runi back in in the end after sitting him down. that AJ and Jack sub for Peja and Runi was really critical. oh well... it's always great to see Manu play live anyway.

Fireball Kid
02-12-2006, 05:42 PM
Rick has been doing a great coaching job as of late, but not this game. Saras, Jones, Peja, Foster and Harrison should all have been in the game in the last minutes. So much for that defense first philosophy.

Rick's problem is that he doesnt have enough trust in some of his players and it showed in this game. That iso play with Jones was just so lame and the last shot from Jackson..........damn you Rick.

#31
02-12-2006, 05:42 PM
Im a realist... so i cant do nothing but agree, Rick made some foolish moves there. But i dont think he is a bad coach (not good either).

rexnom
02-12-2006, 05:53 PM
I just wanna say that Rick Carlisle is an absolutely brilliant coach. I love him as a coach to death. He gets results and there are maybe five coaches more effective than him. We wouldn't be here if it weren't for Rick. HOWEVER, I think BBall nailed it with the whole "safety blanket" thing. He is a very conservative coach in this aspect...and it is his undoing very often. It's becoming clearer this year when we don't have Reggie. I don't think we should judge Carlisle totally by this game though and throw out the "fire Rick" threads just yet. Maybe he learns from this game and doesn't make the same mistake...(though that's the optimist in me...the realist says that if he hasn't learned by now he'll never learn...)

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-12-2006, 06:02 PM
Rick put the game in SJaxs hand in the last few minutes and it cost us. Jax had been inconsistent the whole game, why would he try to rely on him to win it for us??

A few have touched on it, but Ginobli's 3 at the end is what cost us the game. Jackson pretty much just handed the Spurs the game on that play. With 2 seconds left on the clock, and Ginobli deep behind the arc, that play SHOULD have been a 24 sec violation. If jackson would have trapped him behind the arc there's no way he gets that 3. But Jack put absolutely no pressure on him and let him take the open 3. After that we fell apart.

Then on one of our last possesions Jack screws up another iso play, but that was just the final nail in the coffin. It was his defensive error that lost the game.

I wish he would get traded....tomorrow.

SycamoreKen
02-12-2006, 06:10 PM
Uggghh.....was anybody else in our, I believe, second last possesion just yelling NO JAX,NOOOO!!!!!!!!!

I was doing that when he came back in the game. We were on a run and then took out the guys that got us going. Jack had done nothing but miss shot after shot and blow a gimme layup to that point. People complained about Best killing our offensive flow, but Jack is worse.

rexnom
02-12-2006, 06:13 PM
Whoa...easy on this bash Jack and trade talk everyone. He had a bad game but do we win the four games without Jack? Maybe, maybe, the Portland game. Otherwise we should be thankful for Jack. He is a good SG overall in the NBA. Better than most average starters actually. And when he is on, he is almost on elite level. I think he can flourish with Peja. Give him some more time. He struggled early so he went to the Iso plays because that's what he does when he struggles. He hasn't learned yet that he doesn't have to do that. Give him time to get used to the new style as well. As for that Manu 3...yeah, that's inexcusable...can't really say more. I think our emotions are a little high right now...let's not let them get the best of us...

SycamoreKen
02-12-2006, 06:16 PM
There is no doubt he has skill, but he's not a rookie any more. I don't think he has the basketball IQ to do anything other than what he does. Heck, I'd rather have a less athletic guy that knows what he's doing and isn't going to lose you as many games as he's going to win.

rexnom
02-12-2006, 06:20 PM
There is no doubt he has skill, but he's not a rookie any more. I don't think he has the basketball IQ to do anything other than what he does. Heck, I'd rather have a less athletic guy that knows what he's doing and isn't going to lose you as many games as he's going to win.

If we're gonna play the "blame Jack" game isn't the count 4 games won, 1 game lost? To me that's a playoff series won. Because I think it's only fair to count only these Peja games since this is our team now. Obviously there are many flaws in this analogy but you get my point...

Ragnar
02-12-2006, 06:33 PM
Bball I have been critical of Ricks 4th quarter management but it was not me who said Rick could not coach a 4th quarter to save his life.

Ricks problem is that if the exact right answer is not beating him over the head he will make the wrong choice.

For example he tried to get away with AJ finishing games in the past and in close games he just cant hack it. Remember the Blazers game Ricks first year here? AJ had put us in a huge hole and Jamaal had dug us out of it and into the lead. Well he put AJ back in with like 30 seconds to go with the lead and we lost TO THE BLAZERS!! Well he learned from that to let Tinsley finish the games against Ricks bad judgement.

Earlier this year he tried to win a free throw shooting contest with the Bucks by keeping Sarunas and Cro on the bech. Then next game against his bad judgement he played those two at the end of a close game and we wont.

Last season when we picked up Curry he played him WAY WAY too much. So much that most of the people on here (other than of course UB who thinks every decision Rick makes must by default be the right one) were ready to kill Rick. Well against his bad judgement he took Curry out of the starting lineup and we started winning again. Eventually we even cut Curry he was so bad.


My point is that Rick if given the opportunity will make the wrong choice. With the score tied in an NBA finals game he will go for overtime rather than for the win. If he has a choice of a prevent offense where we stop scoring and let the other team score at will thats what he choses.

rexnom
02-12-2006, 06:42 PM
Wait, so now he has won 4 games and that counts as winning a playoff series?

Im sure Gill has played on a team that won 4 games in a row, and played in all of those.

So by your logic, Eddie Gill has...........

And I love Jax when he is on, but I have long said I would have no problem with him being traded. He is to insonsistent for me, and he really thrives in a system where he is number 1 or 1A. When he becomes 2 or 3 he isnt as effective...

I said that the logic was faulty...I was pointing out that this whole "Blame Jack" thing makes no sense. If we're gonna blame him for losing this game then we might as well "blame" him for winning the other...he played just as big of a part in those...

Bat Boy
02-12-2006, 06:51 PM
Okay, I will offer what appears to be one of the few dissenting opinions. The Pacers lost a close game, a game that appeared winnable, and now suddenly Rick is an idiot. I don't buy it. I think he has done another great job of coaching this year. Not perfect by any means, but darn good and not deserving of the almost uniformly negative commentary by a lot of people who are acting with 20-20 hindsight.

I have read these game threads for several years, and it is remarkable how inconsistent people's comments are, especially with regard to players such as AJ, Hulk, Crozier and Jax. When they are on -- like AJ was recently -- they are beloved. When they are flat, they are worthless trade bait and Rick is a bone-stupid idiot for playing them in crunch time rather than Runi (who has been flat for several games until today).

These comments are only a small variation of those last year, when Crozier played with broken ribs, bad ankle and lots of pain, and did so game after game because the team needed him. He didn't always play well, but he answered the bell round after round when many if not most players would be sitting out, and all that many of you did on this site was to criticize him -- or Donnie for giving him a longterm contract, or Rick for playing him (when there was no one else to play). Its true Cro got a big contract after we finally beat the Knicks, but apparently long forgotten is how key he was in beating our longtime bugaboo, the Knicks (he was the Pacers' long-sought, often unguardable answer to Marcus Camby). Yes, it was a long time ago, and the teams' fortunes and personnel have changed, but Crozier might have looked differently to all in hindsight if IT hadn't benched him the following 2 years.

I am NOT an apologist for Rick, and I am not putting him up for COY, but he has been dealt a pretty bad hand for the last 2 years and he has kept the team competitive. They are competitive even now, if not exactly contenders in anyone's mind.

We had won 4 straight going into this game, and did so with new personnel and while 2 starters (and one all star) have been injured. We take on the defending champions with something of a patchwork lineup and everyone is angry that we lost. I certainly understand that -- what is most upsetting is that we were only a few plays away from winning this game. But all you Swamis are sure, just so sure, that the outcome would have differed if the fleet-footed Runi was in the game rather than AJ. If AJ couldn't stop the guard penetration, who believes Runi would have?

Moses
02-12-2006, 06:52 PM
Carlisle has been pulling hot players from the game as of late. I'm not sure if he wants to keep the guys fresh and healthy or what he's doing..But some games you gotta play your best shooters 40+ minutes.

It sucks that we lost, but we took them to the wire and that should count for something. This game just proves why we need a low post threat. Who do you go to in the fourth when your outside shooters go cold or you can't get a block in the middle? Low post players. Manu torched us in the lane because he kept getting our bigs to foul him. It's when you play guys who attack like that, that you need an athletic post defender like JO.

D-BONE
02-12-2006, 07:15 PM
A lockdown perimeter defender doesn't hurt either against penetrators like Ginobli and Parker, but we no longer have the luxury. I don't like this finger pointing. Jack did not play up to the level of the last several but blaming a loss on him or anybody else in a game where, IMO, everyone played extremely hard and left everything on the court isn't right. It certainly looked to me like Rick was calling isos for Jack the last several possessions both when he hit and didn't. That's not blaming Rick either. They rode Fred for a while but then he had a couple chances late he didn't convert either. Bottom line: we just didn't make plays offensively or defensively in crunch time and Manu hit a miracle shot.

Harmonica
02-12-2006, 09:02 PM
Okay, I will offer what appears to be one of the few dissenting opinions. The Pacers lost a close game, a game that appeared winnable, and now suddenly Rick is an idiot. I don't buy it. I think he has done another great job of coaching this year. Not perfect by any means, but darn good and not deserving of the almost uniformly negative commentary by a lot of people who are acting with 20-20 hindsight.
20-20 hindsight? Go back and read the last several pages of the game thread.

Here:


Please Rick, don't put AJ in now. :pray:

and


Please Rick, don't let AJ finish the game. :pray:

sixthman
02-12-2006, 09:13 PM
Let me add... I think Carlisle made his moves due to defense. I don't think he actually got better defense out of them tho. We got worse defense AND offense than what we'd just had.
-Bball

Truth.

If it is defense you are looking for, it would seem to me that Danny Granger should be on the floor, ahead of both Jackson and Peja.

My judgement right now also is that Peja is at least as good defensively as Jackson against forwards, all things considered.

Granger can guard both big guards and average sized forwards better than anyone on the team. Read this to mean Ginobili or Bruce Bowen. He didn't do badly while guarding Robert Horry either.

pacerwaala
02-12-2006, 09:19 PM
For those who think that team is better without JO, I have news for you. You probably are the same guys that said that we are better off without Artest when we won a couple of games without him. This good play is just a testament to Carlisle's coaching and the guys on this team who try hard night in and night out reagardless of who is on the floor. However, this team in its present form (without JO and to much extent Tins) might win a few games on emotion, Carlisle's coaching and effort but long term they really can't sustain this kind of play.


As far as today's game, I have no problem with Rick's moves

He probably removed Sarunas for defensive reasons - Manu and Tony Parker have a very quick first step.

The problem however is - SJax. I have been saying this from day one, from the time they traded Al for him - he is a fool who is full of himself. He would be a good player when he is a 4th option and when in a contract year. With his contract, he has this mentality that he is a primary player on this team.

He hogs the ball, breaks plays, shoots wild jumpers and has stopped playing defense which he used to do well occasionally. For anybody who watches basketball, do you realize that this guy's jumpers have forward spin on them? His passes are 90mph fastballs which can break fingers. He does not bend much while dribbling which makes him turnover prone. His brawl actions were plain follish.

I will fault Rick a little for this game to the extent that he went to SJax who took two dribbles and launched this line drive which cracked the rim. The part of RIck that likes to go to SJax at the end of games, I don't like.

Even the three pointer that he made at the end of the game was early in the shot clock and in pressure. This team needs to get rid of this fellow real quick even if it is for a couple of 2nd round picks

McKeyFan
02-12-2006, 09:22 PM
If AJ couldn't stop the guard penetration, who believes Runi would have?

No one's arguing that. In fact, AJ DIDN'T stop them, nor did the rest of the prevent defense.

Runi would have given us more points and, thus, a victory. (He was spotted seven points with four minutes to play.)

indygeezer
02-12-2006, 09:28 PM
AAAACCCCCKKKKKK!

You mean aj and.................

.
.
.
.
no

:censored:



I didn't see the game...or listen to much of it, I was on the road and the Mrs was grading papers in the car :censored:

grace
02-12-2006, 09:38 PM
No offense, but we have won a **** load of games without JO.

Who's to say that if he was playing we wouldn't have lost any games? Personally I don't believe it but it's possible.

Diesel_81
02-12-2006, 09:40 PM
post up crap...and he WILL revert back.
Larry should pull a Pat Riley and take over the team!

Water


Boy it seems like the word post up has become a dirty word on this forum to some of you. When San Antonio beefed up they're defense and slowed the pace down the last couple of minutes it would have been nice to have a postup threat on the floor like Jermaine Oneal.

CableKC
02-12-2006, 10:59 PM
I think I will step up and accept about .0000001% of the blame....I had to step away for after halftime and couldn't make it back until after the end of the game. My lucky Pacer sweatshirt and cap weren't there to change the outcome of the game. Sorry guys ( and PacerGurl ), I couldn't step up when I had to.

pizza guy
02-12-2006, 11:03 PM
Come on PG.

The problem was not the offense the problem was the defense. The Spurs scored on every possession in the last 3 minutes. The Pacers scored enough, but couldn't stop the Spurs without fouling them

The key play was right after Jax hit a three that put the Pacers up 5 with about a minute and a half left, The Pacers get called for a defensive three seconds call, but the back breaker was when the Spurs almost turned the ball over, Manu had the bal, at midcourt with about 4 seconds left he drtibbles into three point range and Jax backs off obviously not realizing that there was no time for anything but a long 3 and manu hit it

4-point play possession, killed us

While I do agree that the defense was largely at fault for this game, it's not like the offense lit things up with AJ and SJax in. I noticed it on the first one or two possessions - a slower, less active game was being played, and the points stopped coming. Sarunas was moving the ball, Peja was hitting shots, things were going well, then they went out. The ball stopped moving, the shots were missed, and the points ceased to add up. Whether the blame for the ball movement and shots should be placed on the players or the coach is arguable, but I lean towards the coach.

Now, I'm not on the "Fire Rick" bandwagon just yet. I will admit that what he has done with what he has had is nothing short of miraculous. But I don't care about the problems we've had, or the winning percentage Carlisle has brought us to over the past two years. What I care about right now is a game that the Pacers should have won, but lost because of a poor substitution.

pacerwaala
02-13-2006, 12:57 AM
No offense, but we have won a **** load of games without JO.

The numbers back that conspiracy up.

Now thats all I consider it, a conspiracy, but this goes back a lot farther then this winning streak. I can only speak for myself, but I have been here for a little over a year now, and as far back as I can remember Bball has said this team plays better ball without JO.

I think people are to quick to jump in and defend JO. No one is saying that it is JO's fault. I have had many discussions with Bball about this, and while I dont agree with him (not yet) he has never laid all the blame on JO. He doesnt know if it is the system, mngmt, the coach, or what.

I think people are to quick to just jump in once they hear that player X, Y, or Z is being challenged, instead of sitting back and looking at it froma objective POV


The Pacers can have a regular season winning streak without JO. Do you or Bball really think we can do anything in a 7 game sereis without JO. Are we looking for a few regular season wins or something beyond? All this discussion and arguments are useless if we are talking about regular season because we are deep enough to make the playoffs even if JO is out for a few weeks. I personally think we can't do diddly p.. without JO in the playoffs.

Pacersfan.
02-13-2006, 01:22 AM
We NEED J.O.'s post presense. As good as Foster and Pollard are defensively they cannot alter shots like J.O. The floor will also be spread out better when J.O. returns because there actaully will be threat in the middle who can finish. Carlisle just needs J.O. to fit into this system and not other way around.

Lithfan
02-13-2006, 02:36 AM
I wonder if Carlisle's tendency to pull out the "hot offensive" player is a result of him deciding to put in more defensive minded players in hopes of holding the lead.

I'm not saying its the right thing...I'm just saying that I've seen that before.

Yuup thats true.

Lets call it "hot offensive out" or simply HOO.

waterjater
02-13-2006, 05:31 AM
Boy it seems like the word post up has become a dirty word on this forum to some of you. When San Antonio beefed up they're defense and slowed the pace down the last couple of minutes it would have been nice to have a postup threat on the floor like Jermaine Oneal.

I don't disagree....just not on every possession of the game.

If you can score a lot of points with motion offense and also have a great defense....why not do both. I'd rather win 100-80 then 90-89.

So this is what puzzles me with Rick, why *** with whats working and put in AJ, SJax at the end when its obvious the players on the floor are kicking the other teams ***??!!!???

If he'd just apply his coaching style during the game to the END of the game and KEEP ATTACKING (vs. See Milwaukee, see this game and a few others)....all would be good!

Water