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Will Galen
02-12-2006, 05:45 AM
What's the solution when JO returns?

The Pacer's color-man for TV broadcasts Quinn Buckner had this to say during the Portland game. [QUOTE] . . . this team has been playing a different style of basketball. (without JO) Jermaine has a tough time a little bit emotionally because he upsets it. That's a quality young man who gives you a double, double, worried about upsetting his teams offense.

So lets discuss a solution. And NO trade JO solutions, we already have enough trade JO threads. Lets discuss what happens WHEN JO comes back. What should Carlisle do to minimize any disruption? And what should happen if there is a notable disruption?

One thought is Peja changes things, and JO will fit in well with this offense.

The counter argument to that is this is much the same offense run last year during the suspensions. The only difference being Peja is taking Reggie's spot as a shooter. Hence JO will again change things, even unwillingly.

However, a counter argument to that is, Reggie was deferring to much and always dumping the ball into JO. Peja will instead move the ball because that's what he's used to. This by the way is what I hope happens.

However I've a thought. Right now the starters are,

PF Foster
SF Peja
C Pollard
SG Jax
PG AJ

Its usually Carlisle's style when a player comes back to work them in gradually so JO could be coming off the bench as part of this unit.

PF JO
SF Danny
C Harrison
SG Fred
PG Saras

If thats the case why not just keep JO with this group and alternate starting units in such a way that teams will have no idea which unit to prepare for.

Each unit would sub for each other as a whole. When someone in either unit gets in foul trouble, sub Tins or Croshere, or whoever the odd men out are.

1] The benefits are everyone would know where they fit into the team.
2] Everyone would play, which would make for a happy team.
3] The Pacers would be a nightmare to prepare for.
4] Each unit could thus play a different style.
5] Minutes would depend on a unit's effectiveness. Which of course would change from night to night.

I guess the only thing I'm really advocating here is playing five man units and subbing them together. Thus each unit could have a different style, and thus JO wouldn't be a disruption.

Downtown Threat
02-12-2006, 05:54 AM
Looks decent on paper but not at all practical in theory.

This will greatly depend on what type of offence Carlisle wants to run. He strikes me as the slow it down, dump it into low post type of coach. The problem is that he doesn't really have a team built for that sort of offence. Sure JO is a great low post player but other pieces don't exactly fit.

A sign of a good player is his ability to adapt his game to different approaches. If Carlisle wants to run the current offence when JO returns then JO will have to adapt his game a bit. It doesn't have to be a complete overhaul. JO is good enough player to adapt. He might take a bit longer to figure it out but I am sure eventually he will just slot in nicely.

JO is your best player so bringing him off the bench is a very strange way off using your best player. He is a 20/10/2blks type guy. Those are as rare as hens teeth so when you have one of those you ride him until he drops dead. You don't bring him in off the bench. You make him your cornerstone and go on from there.

D-BONE
02-12-2006, 09:07 AM
I'm giving a HOOT-OUT to OWL who has proposed, IMO, the best plan for JO reintegration. Run-N-Gun Rick sticks w/ that philosophy and JO comes back and adapts willingly for the benefit of the team. In this system JO is no longer the focal point of the offense although he will get a decent number of post up opportunities. JO improves his passing out of doubles and recommits to rebounding and D since all his energy is no longer focused on pounding in low every possession. Even with the change of role, JO still ends up getting his points anyway (at least mid-teens) just via different ways. Everyone is happy, balanced contributions intact, and we contiue to win (fingers crossed, hope springs eternal, etc). If Rick and/or JO muck it up, ire, bile, fire, and brimstone will be spewed on this forum.

MSA2CF
02-12-2006, 09:08 AM
Solution?

Steven Hunter.

:-p

[edit: hold on, wrong guy.]

[second edit: Okay, I don't remember the guy's name nor the team he played for...He's the one who never got to play and came in just for a few seconds for the Celtics in the playoffs (?) a couple years ago.]

D-BONE
02-12-2006, 09:13 AM
P.S. WG, I like the idea of having stable units. I think Rick has done that to some degree already and it's working well. It's better, as you say, for players to have an expectation of their role and the rotation. Would Rick really do something so wild as randomly switching them out? I mean we can't even be sure if he'll keep this offensive scheme intact despite its success. Maybe if Don Nelson were our coach he'd be more willing to try out something of that nature.

ahhteeth
02-12-2006, 11:35 AM
I say we just trade him

Jermaniac
02-12-2006, 11:55 AM
Bring JO off the bench for a few games. Once he is in game shape start. It will all be good if Rick continues to let them play the system they are playing in now, if he doesnt we will go back to dump it into the post and watch JO work.

PG-Tins
SG-Jack
SF-Peja
PF-JO
C-Pollard

Bball
02-12-2006, 12:04 PM
I don't think there's any chance we'll keep this system of play up when JO returns. Past history shows that when JO returns neither he nor Carlisle can stay away from the ISOBall.

The happy medium would be for both JO and TPTB to admit that he's not Shaq or Tim Duncan first and foremost... The second thing would be for JO to understand there's no shame in not being the first option but instead the team taking what we're given.

JO -HAS- to learn to make quicker decisions with the ball regardless of what system we are playing. He has to learn to let the game come to him. And he has to keep his head in the game. That's (his head) still one of his biggest weaknesses and at this point it is a worrisome weakness because he's old enough he should be past that (he shouldn't be letting opposing players (and refs) take him out of our game plan).

So much of his reintegration back into the team will rest on his shoulders. Probably he should already be talking to Bird and the coaching staff about it right now (and I don't mean demanding he return as the #1 option... I mean learning this system inside out and working (mentally) on his role in it).

I think ideally, if Rick could get away from the ISOBall mentality upon JO's return, would be for JO to play more like Granger right now. Get in the motion, focus on rebounding and defense, and take the shots that come to him. Don't force anything. He'd end up being a tougher player to defend and not bogging down the offense. His scoring would go down BUT our overall scoring should be helped because it would open things all around. The other team would have to account for JO or else we turn him into option #1 and he kills them until they adjust.

JO doesn't need to be the leader. He can lead by example by letting the game come to him and DOING THE LITTLE THINGS. It's time he blocks out. It's time he learned to set solid screens AND hold it a proper length of time to be effective. He can work on his passing. There's no shame in working on the fundamentals of the game. He's no longer a young pup and he can't rely on athleticism to carry him. The injuries are probably a signal of just that. He also needs to show his scoring doesn't mean everything to him.

IMHO, he should be asking questions of himself in this period. It's clear we're playing better without him. He's a player that is capable of more but it's going to take a different mentality from JO -and- Coach Carlisle. It's time to come to earth about how good JO is.... and is not. Just because we're paying him Tim Duncan money doesn't mean he's Tim Duncan.

-Bball

Pacesetter
02-12-2006, 12:06 PM
JO needs to go back to the way he was playing after the Summer of 2003.

I've got a pretty good feeling JO knows how to get down to business when he's ready!

JMO.

Los Angeles
02-12-2006, 12:10 PM
Honestly, I think the solution will present itself naturally. I don't see any way that Foster, Pollard AND Harrison will stay this healthy AND this good the rest of the season. if and when one of them goes down, you insert JO, he follows the game plan and TA-DAAA! you've got the same game plan.

Kegboy
02-12-2006, 12:44 PM
As LA stated, substitution patterns come out of necessitity, not design. The more important question is what plays we will run.

I talked about this in Peck's thread, but the key is to deemphasize JO in the short run and let him get reacclimated to motion. Then rewrite the playbook over the summer.

hoopsforlife
02-12-2006, 04:22 PM
:suicide: :death: :sadbanana:

317Kim
02-12-2006, 04:34 PM
Why would we trade him if we haven't seen what he and Peja can do together?

I'd bring him in off the bench for a couple of game (he, Runi, and Fred do some pretty good stuff when they're in the same unit)

Let him play a few games, practice some more, get into shape, it'll all fall into place soon enough.

Will Galen
02-12-2006, 04:48 PM
I say we just trade him

This isn't a trade JO thread! Read the first post again!

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-12-2006, 05:19 PM
However I've a thought. Right now the starters are,

PF Foster
SF Peja
C Pollard
SG Jax
PG AJ

Its usually Carlisle's style when a player comes back to work them in gradually so JO could be coming off the bench as part of this unit.

PF JO
SF Danny
C Harrison
SG Fred
PG Saras

I laughed when I read this because that 2nd unit completely blows that 1st unit out of the water.

Diesel_81
02-12-2006, 09:09 PM
I think ideally, if Rick could get away from the ISOBall mentality upon JO's return, would be for JO to play more like Granger right now. Get in the motion, focus on rebounding and defense, and take the shots that come to him. Don't force anything. He'd end up being a tougher player to defend and not bogging down the offense. His scoring would go down BUT our overall scoring should be helped because it would open things all around. The other team would have to account for JO or else we turn him into option #1 and he kills them until they adjust.
-Bball

Unless Im reading you the wrong way it sounds like you want the offense to go through Peja and Jackson and Oneal just concentrate on Rebounding,shotblocking and offensive put backs basically in the role of a Ben Wallace. I don't know if a combination of Peja and Steven are good enough for that and I think we would be shooting ourselfs in the foot with that strategy.I don't think that will work. First off Jermaine Oneal is still our best offensive player when you combine the fact he can score inside and outside, he gets to the free throw line and he's our best finisher.


I think Jermaine can still be our #1 option or he and Peja could be options 1A/1B which I think would and should be a lethal combination. As with everything in life there has to be balance we should look to force the tempo agaisnt teams who can't run, teams that are small and like to run we should be playing at a slower pace where we utilize ball movement and utilize our inside/outside game. Like I said in another thread the post up is a great weapon when you have somebody of Jermaines caliber but it shouldn't be our only weapon and at the same time we shouldn't forget about it.

BlueNGold
02-12-2006, 10:05 PM
I think JO's role on offense should depend on whether DH is in the game.

When Harrison is in the game, JO should keep 10-12 feet out most of the time. DH has the body to take the pounding in the post and IMO will be able to shoot for a good pct. down low eventually. JO has the range to hit consistently from 12 feet and will stay healthier playing outside...and will get back quicker on D. 10-12 feet is still close enough for him to crash the boards as well....and he will still get inside on occasion.

If DH is not in the game, JO should post up mainly to draw defenders, then kick it out. He still needs to score down low, but only about 1/2 as many attempts. Scoring down low is physically exhausting. If he plays more on the outside, he will have more energy and be more effective the rare times he does try to score down low. Overall, his play and his health will improve if he spends less time on the block....or at least less time trying to score from the block. He will defend better and be fresher later in the game. Maybe Granger can post up some when JO is in the game. Granger could turn out to have a post up game as good as Ron's...

Bball
02-12-2006, 10:47 PM
Unless Im reading you the wrong way it sounds like you want the offense to go through Peja and Jackson and Oneal just concentrate on Rebounding,shotblocking and offensive put backs basically in the role of a Ben Wallace. .

You are pretty much reading me correctly. Funny thing is, Bill Walton today said the same thing I did about JO's return and his role.

I'm not saying JO would never get a shot in the flow of the offense or that a play not be called for him in certain situations, but I don't see that he needs to be the #1 option in a 'feed JO the ball and watch' offense.

-Bball

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-12-2006, 11:50 PM
You are pretty much reading me correctly. Funny thing is, Bill Walton today said the same thing I did about JO's return and his role.

I wouldnt be bragging about that, Walton is a complete dumbass lol. I guess he knows a little bit about basketball but hearing him talk is like torture for my brain.

Did anyone else catch how many times he screwed up Fosters first name? I guess weve got a few new players including Greg Foster and Scott Foster

Diesel_81
02-13-2006, 09:42 AM
You are pretty much reading me correctly. Funny thing is, Bill Walton today said the same thing I did about JO's return and his role.

I'm not saying JO would never get a shot in the flow of the offense or that a play not be called for him in certain situations, but I don't see that he needs to be the #1 option in a 'feed JO the ball and watch' offense.

-Bball

I agree we shouldn't be playing the iso ball with Jermaine Oneal either, I would rather involve him in more pick and rolls, I would rather have him face the basket as well and pass the ball to cutters or take the shot if hes open. I do want us us to play at a little faster pace and I want to see more of a motion offense but at the same time I think for us to get the most out of this team Oneal has to get enough offensive touches.

Like I said in a previous post is Peja/Jackson combo good enough to have the offense run through them? I have seen enough of Steven Jackson to know that he's just way to streaky and unpredictable to count on in that role.So for now I would say no that combo isn't good enough, however I think an offense that runs through Peja/ Oneal would give us a inside/outsides dimension we really have never had.Like I said in a previous thread Oneal/Peja should be considered option 1A/1b and allow other players to play off them.

PacerMan
02-13-2006, 10:54 AM
Without Artest we don't have the horses to go back to the "old way". Jax is simply not consistant enough to be a isolation playmaker. Peja supposedly plays MUCH better in a 'support' role than he does being the 'go to guy'. And why would anybody think that the coaches can't see how much better this team is playing now? Only the fans have a clue? :rolleyes:
Think the PROFESSIONAL COACHES have that quickly forgotten the trouble this team has had scoring enough the past FOUR YEARS?
We keep playing this style and add a drop dead low post scorer and we 'can' be awfully hard to stop. Jermaine is intelligent and talks 'team' all the time. There is absolutely no reason he can't/won't fit into this style and thrive. Yeh, there might be a bit of a learning curve, but it WILL happen.
And then we'll be BETTER than we were when we had Dr.Jeckyl/Mr.Artest.
Just like I TOLD YOU we would be. :)

sixthman
02-13-2006, 11:31 AM
It's clear we're playing better without him. He's a player that is capable of more but it's going to take a different mentality from JO -and- Coach Carlisle. It's time to come to earth about how good JO is.... and is not. Just because we're paying him Tim Duncan money doesn't mean he's Tim Duncan.

-Bball

I liked that last line a lot.


Just because we're paying him Tim Duncan money doesn't mean he's Tim Duncan.

But watching Tim Duncan last night, maybe we are way too hard on JO. :(

I would however strongly disagree with any suggestion that the reason we are playing better has anything to do with the absence of JO. We're playing better. Sure. But is JO's absence the reason? No way.

We are playing better because of a fortuitous set of circumstances:

Peja is now our small forward giving us more perimeter scoring; We are regularly using a big center along with a big power forward, except when common sense dictates we don't need to do that; Jackson has been moved to shooting guard where he fits better; Jeff Foster and Scot Pollard have returned to better health and can now contribute; we've had a long home stand and finally gotten to practice; David Harrison is contributing more consistently; and players are finally playing in their best position.

Oh, and at the same time all of the above happened the offense has changed a little. :wink:

Make no mistake about it - we're going to be more formidable when JO returns.

PacersHeat
02-13-2006, 01:33 PM
Unless if JO learns to bend in and adjust to the team that has been considerably improved lately.

We would rather NOT have him to expect the team to adjust to his playing. He often slowed us down in times because he holds the ball too long .. release the ball faster and run uptempo. That's what the current lineup has been doing so far.

If so, he adjusts fine along. That's only the way I see and hope from him when he returns. His status remains as questionable as a team player .. you all should have realized by now. Wait till after his return and see how he fares along like I said in other thread.

Diesel_81
02-14-2006, 12:19 AM
[quote=PacersHeat]

. He often slowed us down in times because he holds the ball too long ..
quote]

The thing is alot of players hold the ball two long, sometimes I think fred holds the ball too long, Steven Jackson holds the ball way too long before he does something with it so its not just Jermaine Oneal that does it but yet some are making it sound like he's the only one thats guilty of it.

Bball
02-14-2006, 02:22 AM
[quote=PacersHeat]

. He often slowed us down in times because he holds the ball too long ..
quote]

The thing is alot of players hold the ball two long, sometimes I think fred holds the ball too long, Steven Jackson holds the ball way too long before he does something with it so its not just Jermaine Oneal that does it but yet some are making it sound like he's the only one thats guilty of it.

Fred does hold the ball too long... But he's not a 120,000,000.00 player and the face of the franchise let alone a starter. Steven holds the ball too long and he does catch flak from it on here.

I don't think anyone is immune from complaints. Some simply are victims of higher expectations.

-Bball

Antonio
02-14-2006, 03:16 AM
PG- Jasikevicius
SG- Jackson
SF- Stojakovic
PF- Granger
C- JO

With this line-up we can play a very good offense/defense like Cleveland or Detroit, if JO plays as Center he won't take too many quick and/or far shots and he'll especially play close to the basket (which Carlisle wants).
Moreover, when he's double teamed JO is one of the best players to get a good pass and find someone oppened, when Saras or Peja have oppened shoots...:buddies:

Will Galen
02-14-2006, 04:14 AM
. . . Moreover, when he's double teamed JO is one of the best players to get a good pass and find someone oppened . . .


SAY WHAT?

JO is quite a bit better passer than he used to be, but he's clearly not one of the best.

naptownmenace
02-14-2006, 11:19 AM
I don't know what adjustments will be made but Rick should go grab as many game tapes as he can from Phoenix and have someone create a highlight reel of Amare Stoudamire.

Stoudamire has a ton of post moves and is very effective down low, just like JO. However, in Phoenix's offense he scores a good majority of his points on fast break, or late break (where he's the trailer on the break), plays. Amare's scoring went up last year after the Suns added some outside shooters and I think JO will benefit from having Peja on the team as well.

Diesel_81
02-15-2006, 01:51 AM
I don't know what adjustments will be made but Rick should go grab as many game tapes as he can from Phoenix and have someone create a highlight reel of Amare Stoudamire.

Stoudamire has a ton of post moves and is very effective down low, just like JO. However, in Phoenix's offense he scores a good majority of his points on fast break, or late break (where he's the trailer on the break), plays. Amare's scoring went up last year after the Suns added some outside shooters and I think JO will benefit from having Peja on the team as well.

Jermane isn't even close to Amare in terms of pure athletic ability. Amare gets up and down the court like a guard but I do agree with you. All the points Jermaine gets are hard fought points, and I think he does have the athletic ability to get up and down the court pretty well and could benefit in a more uptempo style.

owl
02-15-2006, 07:07 AM
I'm giving a HOOT-OUT to OWL who has proposed, IMO, the best plan for JO reintegration. Run-N-Gun Rick sticks w/ that philosophy and JO comes back and adapts willingly for the benefit of the team. In this system JO is no longer the focal point of the offense although he will get a decent number of post up opportunities. JO improves his passing out of doubles and recommits to rebounding and D since all his energy is no longer focused on pounding in low every possession. Even with the change of role, JO still ends up getting his points anyway (at least mid-teens) just via different ways. Everyone is happy, balanced contributions intact, and we contiue to win (fingers crossed, hope springs eternal, etc). If Rick and/or JO muck it up, ire, bile, fire, and brimstone will be spewed on this forum.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

Could not have said it better myself. I have said it more just not better :-))


owl

owl
02-15-2006, 07:18 AM
Unless Im reading you the wrong way it sounds like you want the offense to go through Peja and Jackson and Oneal just concentrate on Rebounding,shotblocking and offensive put backs basically in the role of a Ben Wallace. I don't know if a combination of Peja and Steven are good enough for that and I think we would be shooting ourselfs in the foot with that strategy.I don't think that will work. First off Jermaine Oneal is still our best offensive player when you combine the fact he can score inside and outside, he gets to the free throw line and he's our best finisher.


I think Jermaine can still be our #1 option or he and Peja could be options 1A/1B which I think would and should be a lethal combination. As with everything in life there has to be balance we should look to force the tempo agaisnt teams who can't run, teams that are small and like to run we should be playing at a slower pace where we utilize ball movement and utilize our inside/outside game. Like I said in another thread the post up is a great weapon when you have somebody of Jermaines caliber but it shouldn't be our only weapon and at the same time we shouldn't forget about it.


NO,no,no,no,no!!!! If JO continues to be the #1 option you can kiss any
title aspirations good by. What makes SA go? Ginobli and Parker!!!!
Duncan is the set up for them. For the Pacers it should be Peja and Jackson
and then JO.

owl

Diesel_81
02-16-2006, 01:52 AM
NO,no,no,no,no!!!! If JO continues to be the #1 option you can kiss any
title aspirations good by. What makes SA go? Ginobli and Parker!!!!
Duncan is the set up for them. For the Pacers it should be Peja and Jackson
and then JO.

owl

I have to disagree with you a Jackson/Peja combination in my opinion isn't good enough to lead the charge. Mainly because I don't think very highly of Jackson and don't think hes good enough to be used on that role if we want to be title contenders, I also think you tend to underate Duncan's role on that team.