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View Full Version : Pacers have found their point guard.



Unclebuck
02-11-2006, 12:20 AM
I've seen enough. I'm ready to award Anthony Johnson as the Pacers starting point guard for at least the rest of this season, and maybe for the next couple of seasons. I don't care if Tinsley comes back, I don't care if Tinsley gets healthy, stays healthy and plays well. AJ is the Pacers best player at that position. Yes I phrased that carefully and purposely.

Is Tinsley more talented than AJ, yes, but he is never healthy, and he won't fit into the Pacers current style. Tinsley likes to dominant the ball, he likes to make the scoring pass, he won't be effective or happy playing this style of quick ball movement.

Face it, this is the style most if not all of you want, so lets play the players who excel in this style. Players who are willing to move the ball, and players who can play well without the ball. Tinsley is horrible player without the ball. Tinsley simply cannot do that. Don't force him to try to do something he's not good at.

Tonight AJ was just great. For those of you who used to love to point out AJ's plus/minus, I dare you to look at what it was tonight. Whenever he went out of the game tonight the Pacers fell apart. He was the most valuable player without question. AJ may not be pretty, but he's effective and a lot better than most of you are willing to admit. Is he a point guard, Does it really matter, in this current style you don't need a classic point guard. You can't have it both ways. If you want to play this style you you have to play the players who are most effective in this style.


Let me make a few comments about the game tonight. The starters played well, but the bench struggled. Jax scored 30 point on 10 FG attempts, that is incredible.

Peja scored 6 huge point midway through the 4th that staved off one of the Warriors runs.

Peja is a lot better player than I thought. His floor game, rebounding, passing, and basketball IQ is just much better than I thought

Did you see Pietrus tonight, he was impressive, would have loved to have gotten him.

Jermaniac
02-11-2006, 12:23 AM
Your love fest for Sarunas is over? I have no problem with AJ starting, at least you are not just handing over our starting PG spot to a rookie this time.

SoupIsGood
02-11-2006, 12:24 AM
Can AJ keep this up though? I hope so.

Fireball Kid
02-11-2006, 12:26 AM
I'm all for whats best for the team. And if that means that AJ should be the starter, than I'm ok with that.

Jon Theodore
02-11-2006, 12:26 AM
I 100% agree. One thing about AJ that is overlooked, he is a great finisher around the rim.

With Saras and Tinsley, you can expect them to occasionally miss a contested "lay-up." With AJ, don't count on it. This guy looks to be in his prime and I am glad he is a Pacer.

Let's not forget he is also one of the better defenders as far as point guards go.

Aj and Runi are our future. Forget Tinsley, he can rot on the bench I could careless. I wouldn't mind trading Tinsley to a horrible team for a 1st round draft pick at this point.

piksi
02-11-2006, 12:28 AM
He is solid but not good enough for goals that Pacers should have with this roster. One or 2 games don't make a player. PG is still the weakest position that You guys have on both ends of the floor.

SoupIsGood
02-11-2006, 12:30 AM
He is solid but not good enough for goals that Pacers should have with this roster. One or 2 games don't make a player. PG is still the weakest position that You guys have on both ends of the floor.


Yeah, but I don't really think there's a PG out there better than him that is available right now. I think he is our PG until we can draft a better one.... or until he starts sucking again.

piksi
02-11-2006, 12:31 AM
Peja scored 6 huge point midway through the 4th that staved off one of the Warriors runs.

Peja is a lot better player than I thought. His floor game, rebounding, passing, and basketball IQ is just much better than I thought



despite of what people might think of Pedja - You don't get to be 3 times all star and 2nd team all NBA just for shooting. Also Pedja has had 7 winning seasons. This year just sucked in many ways for him and the Kings.

317Kim
02-11-2006, 12:32 AM
I'd have to say AJ really proved me wrong on some things. He set the tone and helped us get a quick start. Runi has been struggling and AJ really helped us pull it together. I'm hopin he can keep this up.

Jack has been making up for those 6-20 FG nights. He was FIRE ALL NIGHT! He and Peja are "meshing" very well. They rack up assists while playing together.

Peja, another good night for him. He made HUGE shots during crunch time that also helped us tons. He put us up 89-80 with the 3 and the 3 pt play.

Young guns definetly struggled a bit but having AJ step up made up for a good portion of it. Fred, Danger, Runi and Hulk combined for 4 of 21 FGs.

We won though. Four straight. Spurs on Sunday :woot2:

Shade
02-11-2006, 12:32 AM
Let's not go overboard here. AJ is solid, but a healthy Tinsley is a better individual player.

With that said, I think Tins should work his way back in from the bench when he returns. If he can play better than AJ in this system and stay healthy, then he should get the starting spot back. But Tins has to earn it back now, as far as I'm concerned.

Roaming Gnome
02-11-2006, 12:33 AM
I agree that AJ is playing well, but as someone has mentioned in the past...AJ is good for scoring in a game like this about once a month, maybe. I will accept Tinsley's time being up on this team from injuries alone, but I'm not buying into all this tripe about the other stuff like his attitude and not being able to run a free flowing offense.

My bottom line is, If Tins has to go...then find another starting point guard because I'm not sold on AJ, or anyone on this team for the long term.

piksi
02-11-2006, 12:34 AM
Yeah, but I don't really think there's a PG out there better than him that is available right now. I think he is our PG until we can draft a better one.... or until he starts sucking again.

I agree. It is hard to get good PG these days. AJ is solid but going in the POs with AJ/Sarunas is not something that gives confidence.

Moses
02-11-2006, 12:34 AM
AJ's only knock is his inconsistency. He played great today and as one of AJ's biggest critics I couldn't find much to criticize tonight. If he continues his elevated play for a while, I would have no problem making him the full time point guard until Tinsley earns it back from him.

Jon Theodore
02-11-2006, 12:37 AM
Aj only plays bad when we dump it into Jermaine and that is not him playing bad, it is just him doing nothing.....like the rest of our team when we do that.

Aj has always fluorished when our team is "under manned"

Roaming Gnome
02-11-2006, 12:39 AM
Aj only plays bad when we dump it into Jermaine and that is not him playing bad, it is just him doing nothing.....like the rest of our team when we do that.

Aj has always fluorished when our team is "under manned"


Nah, I would have to disagree. During that wonderful 6 game losing streak...AJ looked pretty pathetic, and JO was no where to be found, except on the bench!

Moses
02-11-2006, 12:39 AM
Aj only plays bad when we dump it into Jermaine and that is not him playing bad, it is just him doing nothing.....like the rest of our team when we do that.

Aj has always fluorished when our team is "under manned"
Negative.

AJ has had plenty of horrid games when JO wasn't in the offense.

LAPacer
02-11-2006, 12:43 AM
What was that quote from Pulp Fiction?

"Ok, gentlemen, let's not suck our .....s just yet."

Sure AJ had a great game, and we are on a 4 game win streak. But come on, we are talking about AJ!!! I loved his game tonight, but something is telling me, he might not have another game like that again this season.

I still think a healthy Tinsley should start. This is like saying, "We are winning with Pollard so we don't need O'neal". I like the way we are playing but Tinsley has proven to be more consistent then AJ in the past. (Just as JO is consistently better than Pollard).

So even though we are playing great. With our current lineup of AJ and Pollard, this team will run out of gas. A team with Tins and JO can go deep in the playoffs.

Lord Helmet
02-11-2006, 12:45 AM
I don't know why some seem to be surprised the way AJ has been playing. He did the same thing last year in March and April. He QB'd the Pacers to the postseason.

Is Tinsley the better all-around player? Yes. The problem is, he can't stay on the floor.

Hopefully AJ can keep this up. He should keep his starting job until he loses it himself.

Unclebuck
02-11-2006, 12:47 AM
AJ is solid, but a healthy Tinsley is a better individual player.





You know that means nothing. Haven't we learned anything over the past 2 years. The Pacers went "the better individual player route" And that approach crumbled. I say let's try to get players who can play together and fit in to make the overall team better

Jon Theodore
02-11-2006, 12:48 AM
Negative.

AJ has had plenty of horrid games when JO wasn't in the offense.

Yeah but weren't we running the same offense, with Jackson simply becoming mini Jermaine.

Moses
02-11-2006, 12:49 AM
You know that means nothing. Haven't we learned anything over the past 2 years. The Pacers went "the better individual player route" And that approach crumbled. I say let's try to get players who can play together and fit in to make the overall team better
Yes but you haven't seen Tinsley in this style of offense. Tinsley may not be the best half court PG in the league but this style of up-tempo offense plays to Tinsley greatest strengths. I have no problem keeping AJ at the starting PG position until Tinsley earns it back. A little friendly competition never hurt anybody.

Roaming Gnome
02-11-2006, 12:50 AM
Yes but you haven't seen Tinsley in this style of offense. Tinsley may not be the best half court PG in the league but this style of up-tempo offense plays to Tinsley greatest strengths. I have no problem keeping AJ at the starting PG position until Tinsley earns it back. A little friendly competition never hurt anybody.

exactly!!!!
:yes: :nod:

SoupIsGood
02-11-2006, 12:52 AM
You know that means nothing. Haven't we learned anything over the past 2 years. The Pacers went "the better individual player route" And that approach crumbled. I say let's try to get players who can play together and fit in to make the overall team better

Yes. Keep players that fit the team, draft players tha fit them team. Eventually, we'll become a good club again, but this time as a team.

Moses
02-11-2006, 12:52 AM
Yeah but weren't we running the same offense, with Jackson simply becoming mini Jermaine.
There were games where AJ played worse then Gill and it wasn't because of Stephen Jackson. Like I said, AJ's biggest fault is his inconsistency. He's like Stephen Jackson at point guard..Both guys are incredibly inconsistent but when they are playing well, they play damn well.

Unclebuck
02-11-2006, 12:53 AM
Yes but you haven't seen Tinsley in this style of offense. Tinsley may not be the best half court PG in the league but this style of up-tempo offense plays to Tinsley greatest strengths. I have no problem keeping AJ at the starting PG position until Tinsley earns it back. A little friendly competition never hurt anybody.



I question whether Tinsley is willing to play this style. And I certainly question whether he can be effective. Tinsley won't have the ball as much as he used to, or maybe I should say he won't have the ball for as long stretches of time. And as I said earlier, Jamaal is not effective when he doesn't have the ball.

But really all this means nothing, he can't stay healthy, so why mess with the chemistry to oput a guy back into the lineup who will be injured again after 15 games or so

Unclebuck
02-11-2006, 12:55 AM
There were games where AJ played worse then Gill and it wasn't because of Stephen Jackson. Like I said, AJ's biggest fault is his inconsistency. He's like Stephen Jackson at point guard..Both guys are incredibly inconsistent but when they are playing well, they play damn well.



I have never seen AJ play worse than Gill, not even for a second

sweabs
02-11-2006, 12:56 AM
But really all this means nothing, he can't stay healthy, so why mess with the chemistry to oput a guy back into the lineup who will be injured again after 15 games or so

Pretty much, it all comes down to this. I mean, there is no sense in even arguing over it.

If we can get something for him, then great. But as of now, we have a couple PG's who can split the time at that spot and do more than a good job. We're very lucky in that respect.

Moses
02-11-2006, 12:57 AM
I question whether Tinsley is willing to play this style. And I certainly question whether he can be effective. Tinsley won't have the ball as much as he used to, or maybe I should say he won't have the ball for as long stretches of time. And as I said earlier, Jamaal is not effective when he doesn't have the ball.

But really all this means nothing, he can't stay healthy, so why mess with the chemistry to oput a guy back into the lineup who will be injured again after 15 games or so
Are you telling me Jamal Tinsley wont enjoy playing a fast-break type of offense that involves him being the floor general up and down the court? If anything, this allows Tinsley to be seen even more. If I were Tinsley, I would be dying to get back into this up-tempo and fun style of basketball. When you get vintage Jamal Tinsley, you get championship style basketball. Unfortunately, he's always to injured to show it.

Like I said, you need to bring him back slowly into the lineup and bring him off the bench until he consistently outperforms AJ..That way if he gets injured he wont throw off chemistry. I refuse to see how the addition of a player off the bench can throw off chemistry.


I have never seen AJ play worse than Gill, not even for a second
There are some games I witnessed last year after the suspensions and during the Jamal injuries where he blew 10 point leads in a matter of 2 minutes.

Roaming Gnome
02-11-2006, 12:59 AM
But really all this means nothing, he can't stay healthy, so why mess with the chemistry to oput a guy back into the lineup who will be injured again after 15 games or so

But, you know that as soon as he is ready to return to the line-up...He will get his job back and we will find out if Jamaal can play in this style of offense. I think he can and will! Jamaal holding the ball was what Carlisle wanted so who is to say that Tins will not give Carlisle what he wants now in this new style?

Unclebuck
02-11-2006, 01:06 AM
There are some games I witnessed last year after the suspensions and during the Jamal injuries where he blew 10 point leads in a matter of 2 minutes.


What was AJ the only player out there. So he blew the lead all by himself

Gamble
02-11-2006, 01:07 AM
Tonight AJ was just great. For those of you who used to love to point out AJ's plus/minus, I dare you to look at what it was tonight. Whenever he went out of the game tonight the Pacers fell apart. He was the most valuable player without question. AJ may not be pretty, but he's effective and a lot better than most of you are willing to admit. Is he a point guard, Does it really matter, in this current style you don't need a classic point guard. You can't have it both ways. If you want to play this style you you have to play the players who are most effective in this style.


Sometimes I don't understand you UB. I admit AJ has won some
games for us but overall a couple of games of stellar performances
doesn't earn you nothing. All I care about is that he is proving
not just to us but to other teams his worth and the same goes for
Jax. Lets face it AJ is old and he isn't getting faster. Next couple
of years and his defense won't get him by.

I'm interested on how O'Neal, Tinsley and Peja gel. If that happens
then AJ will be quickly ushered to the pine. If it doesn't then I am
happy with AJ for this year.

Moses
02-11-2006, 01:09 AM
What was AJ the only player out there. So he blew the lead all by himself
I'm saying Gill would go out there and actually get us a lead. When we stuck AJ back in there, we lost it. He's so inconsistent.

Gamble
02-11-2006, 01:09 AM
You know that means nothing. Haven't we learned anything over the past 2 years. The Pacers went "the better individual player route" And that approach crumbled. I say let's try to get players who can play together and fit in to make the overall team better

So is that the reason we got rid of Ron Ron?

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-11-2006, 01:10 AM
Im glad AJ had a good game and he deffinitely deserves to start, for the time being. But lets face it, a Pacers team led by AJ at the point isnt going to win a chamiponship.

Dont get me wrong, I am one of AJ's biggest supporters and I hate all the criticism he gets around here but I see him as a back up point guard, a very good one. In my opinion, he is one of the best back up point guards in the league, but thats just me. And I dont think its fair that everyone says he sucks, when they are comparing him to the starting pgs on other teams.

Also, I would still like to see Saras get the starting job just for a few games. I just get the feeling that coming off the bench is holding him back for some reason, and if he got a chance to really lead the team he might be able to do great things.

But for now, AJ has definitely earned the job. Im glad we have a back up pg like him, who, two seasons in a rows has been able to step in when Tinsley went down and be very productive.

@UB: You say you still would have liked to get Pietrus, does that mean you would still rather have him than Peja?

Unclebuck
02-11-2006, 01:11 AM
I've always liked AJ, I think he has played some great ball for the Pacers over the years. This is not anything new for me. And it really doesn't have that much to do with the last few games. I've always liked AJ. And I've never understood why most of you don't like him. I've nbeen pretty quiet about it this season because I got tired of arguing about it. So I decided why bother, but that doesn't mean I haven't always like AJ.


I'm happy with Peja, very happy, but Pietrus is going to be an excellent player, so I would have been fine getting him. I mentioned it because Pietrus might have been the most rumored player the Pacers were going to get

Gamble
02-11-2006, 01:14 AM
What was AJ the only player out there. So he blew the lead all by himself

I am silly for saying this but normally assists don't blow leads.

Gamble
02-11-2006, 01:20 AM
I'm happy with Peja, very happy, but Pietrus is going to be an excellent player, so I would have been fine getting him. I mentioned it because Pietrus might have been the most rumored player the Pacers were going to getget

How do you know that he is going to be an excellent player?
I would much rather put money on something proven than a maybe. The question still stands would you take him over Peja?

Big Smooth
02-11-2006, 01:26 AM
This board has Anthony Johnson haters? *scratches head* I've never had a negative opinion of him since he came here. Initially I thought "WTF they bringing this scrub here" but he has proven me wrong.


AJ has his limits. He will never be mistaken for an All-Star. But he is a damned good basketball player and seeing as how Tinsley is too soft to be counted upon, I think people should be pretty pleased that we have a guy like AJ who can fill in more than capably.

Jamaal Tinsley is not durable. I don't care if he has more "individual talent". WTF does that buy us? Nothing. For those who have not noticed, basketball is a TEAM SPORT. That is why Detroit has been so great the past couple seasons.

How long can you wait for this "superior" point guard to actually be consistently healthy enough to help the team? To me, Tinsley has become the guard version of Jon Bender.

Gamble
02-11-2006, 01:31 AM
I don't think anyone will disagree with Tinsley having a lack of
durability but i wouldn't jump so quickly as to say he's the number
one pg on this team.

Atleast Tinsley has brought some returns to this team, JB just sucked
good money from the pine.

Moses
02-11-2006, 01:34 AM
We need Able to copy and paste his Jamal Tinsley injury history post in this thread just so you guys realize that JT isn't quite as injury prone as some of you think. I'm pretty sure the reason he's missed so much time is because our staff mis-diagnosed it.

PostArtestEra
02-11-2006, 01:36 AM
What was that quote from Pulp Fiction?

"Ok, gentlemen, let's not suck our .....s just yet."

Sure AJ had a great game, and we are on a 4 game win streak. But come on, we are talking about AJ!!! I loved his game tonight, but something is telling me, he might not have another game like that again this season.

I still think a healthy Tinsley should start. This is like saying, "We are winning with Pollard so we don't need O'neal". I like the way we are playing but Tinsley has proven to be more consistent then AJ in the past. (Just as JO is consistently better than Pollard).

So even though we are playing great. With our current lineup of AJ and Pollard, this team will run out of gas. A team with Tins and JO can go deep in the playoffs.

Second!
AJ has played well and that is a plus, but he is definitely a BACKUP. Its nice to know that he can play quality minutes of the bench, but he is surely not a starter.

Gamble
02-11-2006, 01:39 AM
I think the reason why people feel that he is so injuried prone is that
everyone misses him when he's not on the court. Games like tonight
makes many people feel that he isn't needed when he is.
I am all for giving him some time to regain his conditioning and allow him to gel with Peja. Shelving him does us no good when it
comes to a game or a trade.

Big Smooth
02-11-2006, 01:40 AM
I don't think anyone will disagree with Tinsley having a lack of
durability but i wouldn't jump so quickly as to say he's the number
one pg on this team.

Atleast Tinsley has brought some returns to this team, JB just sucked
good money from the pine.

Compared anyone to Bender is pretty useless IMO. Shoot, Primoz Brezec was let go in the expansion draft and has proven to be twice the player that Bender has been.

But to his credit, from my understanding Bender has not officially filed his retirement papers which means we can use his $7 million salary as a sweetener in a potential trade next season.

Big Smooth
02-11-2006, 01:42 AM
I think the reason why people feel that he is so injuried prone is that
everyone misses him when he's not on the court. Games like tonight
makes many people feel that he isn't needed when he is.
I am all for giving him sometime. Shelving him does us no good when it
comes to a game or a trade.

No, I think that is a load of crap. Isn't it amazing how he suddenly becomes "healthy enough" to play on the postseason when the Pacers are on the ropes? The young man is either injury prone or unable to play through pain unless absolutely necessary. In either case, I'd rather make moves to get a guy who I know can run the point more than half the season.

Big Smooth
02-11-2006, 01:48 AM
What was that quote from Pulp Fiction?

"Ok, gentlemen, let's not suck our .....s just yet."

Sure AJ had a great game, and we are on a 4 game win streak. But come on, we are talking about AJ!!! I loved his game tonight, but something is telling me, he might not have another game like that again this season.

I still think a healthy Tinsley should start. This is like saying, "We are winning with Pollard so we don't need O'neal". I like the way we are playing but Tinsley has proven to be more consistent then AJ in the past. (Just as JO is consistently better than Pollard).

So even though we are playing great. With our current lineup of AJ and Pollard, this team will run out of gas. A team with Tins and JO can go deep in the playoffs.

AJ has had enough great games that I can rely upon him as a backup PG. No, don't see him as our long-term answer as the starting point.

"a healthy Tinsley should start." I can't disagree but has Tinsley EVER been healthy since his rookie season?? the past two postseasons, he has not been healthy but played anyways.

Can't think of too many championship contenders who must rely on a injury prone key player. Tinsley has shown ZERO durability. What is going to change that at this point? How is he going to magically become 100% this season?

Gamble
02-11-2006, 01:56 AM
No, I think that is a load of crap. Isn't it amazing how he suddenly becomes "healthy enough" to play on the postseason when the Pacers are on the ropes? The young man is either injury prone or unable to play through pain unless absolutely necessary. In either case, I'd rather make moves to get a guy who I know can run the point more than half the season.

That is why I said game or trade. Putting him on the bench healthy makes
Donnies options limited. The only injury that ticks me off about Tinsley
is his sinus infections. I have to disagree with you on his lack of playing
through pain. He normally got rushed back off a injury to soon and he
has proven to me that he wants to be out there.

beast23
02-11-2006, 02:08 AM
I've always liked AJ, I think he has played some great ball for the Pacers over the years. This is not anything new for me. And it really doesn't have that much to do with the last few games. I've always liked AJ. And I've never understood why most of you don't like him. I've nbeen pretty quiet about it this season because I got tired of arguing about it. So I decided why bother, but that doesn't mean I haven't always like AJ.I agree totally with the point you're trying to make in this thread. And I've backed AJ even when many others have been highly critical of him.

Unfortunately, I almost wish you had made your point after AJ had played an average, or even a mediocre game.

Why? Because I think we have a lot of folks on the forum who stick their fingers in the air, see which way the wind is blowing (meaning what has the player done for me lately) and base their opinions on the last game played.

By the way, Buck I'm not accusing you of this. It's just that I think we would get a better idea of how many folks really get what you're saying if you'd made your statement when it wouldn't be quite so popular.

But, back to AJ. He is one of the few players that we have who seems to know his own strengths and weaknesses. He seems to, for the most part, "do the things he is capable of doing" and avoid the things that he is not so good at. And, unlike our other PGs, even when AJ is all butts and elbows on the offensive end, he still plays consistently good defense at the other end of the floor.

In making pinpoint passes, AJ is no Tinsley. He finds an open man and makes a simple pass. That's just about the limit of his distribution skills. But as Buck points out, in a game where your offense is a little uptempo and is based on player and ball movement, AJ's distribution skills are far more than just adequate. The PG doesn't have to "thread the needle", all he has to do is find an open man, or drive the ball and kick it to the open man.

In this offense, if we got that from our PG, along with a low number of turnovers, everything else would take care of itself. But most games, AJ is giving us far more than that. He is beating his man off the dribble and taking the ball to the rim and he's hitting his share of open shots as well.

These are all things that AJ does not do nearly as well in half-court basketball using an offense dependent on going through a single player posted up near the lane.

Hopefully, Jermaine will come back from injury and will enjoy playing the new style as much as the other players do. But we must not forget that Tinsley's value will probably play out most in the playoffs, where teams play defense with a little more zeal, and many teams increase the number of post-up plays that they run. And when that happens, I hope that Tinsley is ready. If so, we will have the PGs to play either style.

Will Galen
02-11-2006, 02:14 AM
I have never seen AJ play worse than Gill, not even for a second


You must not remember AJ getting a tech for being the 6th man on the floor.

Four wins in a row and everybody is forgetting AJ has been part of the problem this year.

If Saras doesn't come though, I think this team will have a different point guard next year.

larry
02-11-2006, 02:30 AM
uncle buck is on point. now i challenge anybody 2 review my posts & find anything negative about A.J. ive let alot of people have 2. i like our PG rotation as is which is why i asked what would u guys do whem tins returns? btw is he day 2 day or what? nebody know?

PacerMan
02-11-2006, 02:32 AM
You know that means nothing. Haven't we learned anything over the past 2 years. The Pacers went "the better individual player route" And that approach crumbled. I say let's try to get players who can play together and fit in to make the overall team better

If we've learned anything the past two years, it's that the defense gets incredibly more intense come playoff time.
The pressure on the ball if AJ and Saras are our ball handlers will be sickening.
Were you asleep through the Boston series last year??

This team won't beat anybody in the playoffs without Jamaal.

(and I like AJ)

LAPacer
02-11-2006, 02:35 AM
Can't think of too many championship contenders who must rely on a injury prone key player. Tinsley has shown ZERO durability. What is going to change that at this point? How is he going to magically become 100% this season?

Zero durability is a bit of an exagerration. Bender is zero durability. Tinsley played in 80 and 73 games his first two seasons. His last three have been injury prone, but I still think for our future he is better than AJ.

Of course it would be nice to make a trade for a point guard with a reliable shot (and has better handles/defense than Saras). Point guard is probably the position we need to upgrade the most. That is the reason why we have 4 of them on the roster and why we toyed with Hardaway and Kenny Anderson. But if Tins can run up and down the court, he has shown in the past he is better than AJ. Doc Rivers even said "If Tinsley doesn't come back in the last game of the playoff series, (Boston) goes to the next round".

LAPacer
02-11-2006, 02:38 AM
Second!
AJ has played well and that is a plus, but he is definitely a BACKUP. Its nice to know that he can play quality minutes of the bench, but he is surely not a starter.

We are on the same page. AJ would be a starter on a team that would start Tyron Lue... and teams like that haven't "found their point guard". Those teams are rebuilding.

Bball
02-11-2006, 02:49 AM
I said it the other day.... Tinsley should be relegated to 3rd string and in no way should he be handed his starting role back or in any other way upset the apple cart if he should ever be healthy again. That means we have our starter and backup roles covered. If the team needs to make a change then swap Saras and AJ but until proven otherwise, Tinsley should sit.

First, past history suggests he can't stay healthy so it isn't fair to the rest of the team to jerk everyone around. Second, his attitude should earn him a seat in the doghouse until such time he learns to be a team player.

To handle the Tinsley situation any other way is setting a bad precedent... just like we did for Bender... and we need to learn to move on.

This will allow Tinsley to heal and be ready for disaster duty and to earn his role back... or better yet.... not get reinjured and hurt his trade value.

It no longer matters 'why' Tinsley keeps getting injured and sick... he just does.. And it is delusional folly to suggest he doesn't.

I think all this means I agree with Uncle Buck.

-Bball

LAPacer
02-11-2006, 03:01 AM
I said it the other day.... Tinsley should be relegated to 3rd string and in no way should he be handed his starting role back or in any other way upset the apple cart if he should ever be healthy again. That means we have our starter and backup roles covered. If the team needs to make a change then swap Saras and AJ but until proven otherwise, Tinsley should sit.

First, past history suggests he can't stay healthy so it isn't fair to the rest of the team to jerk everyone around. Second, his attitude should earn him a seat in the doghouse until such time he learns to be a team player.

To handle the Tinsley situation any other way is setting a bad precedent... just like we did for Bender... and we need to learn to move on.

This will allow Tinsley to heal and be ready for disaster duty and to earn his role back... or better yet.... not get reinjured and hurt his trade value.

It no longer matters 'why' Tinsley keeps getting injured and sick... he just does.. And it is delusional folly to suggest he doesn't.

I think all this means I agree with Uncle Buck.

-Bball


Unless AJ is the next Chauncey Billups (A guy who just improved tremendously late in his career) or we make a trade for a stud PG, Tins should NOT be the 3rd point guard when he comes back from injury. He may not be a saint, but he is no worse than Jackson/Harrison when it comes to attitude. Yes, he is injury prone, but when he is available, he is the best we've got. So why not use him. Our chemistry will have to change anyway when O'neal returns. Back to back games of AJ being unable to bring the ball up court just to start the offense and people will remember why Tinsley has been the starter for 5 years.

Peck
02-11-2006, 03:10 AM
I've seen enough. I'm ready to award Anthony Johnson as the Pacers starting point guard for at least the rest of this season, and maybe for the next couple of seasons. I don't care if Tinsley comes back, I don't care if Tinsley gets healthy, stays healthy and plays well. AJ is the Pacers best player at that position. Yes I phrased that carefully and purposely.

Is Tinsley more talented than AJ, yes, but he is never healthy, and he won't fit into the Pacers current style. Tinsley likes to dominant the ball, he likes to make the scoring pass, he won't be effective or happy playing this style of quick ball movement.

Face it, this is the style most if not all of you want, so lets play the players who excel in this style. Players who are willing to move the ball, and players who can play well without the ball. Tinsley is horrible player without the ball. Tinsley simply cannot do that. Don't force him to try to do something he's not good at.

Tonight AJ was just great. For those of you who used to love to point out AJ's plus/minus, I dare you to look at what it was tonight. Whenever he went out of the game tonight the Pacers fell apart. He was the most valuable player without question. AJ may not be pretty, but he's effective and a lot better than most of you are willing to admit. Is he a point guard, Does it really matter, in this current style you don't need a classic point guard. You can't have it both ways. If you want to play this style you you have to play the players who are most effective in this style.


Let me make a few comments about the game tonight. The starters played well, but the bench struggled. Jax scored 30 point on 10 FG attempts, that is incredible.

Peja scored 6 huge point midway through the 4th that staved off one of the Warriors runs.

Peja is a lot better player than I thought. His floor game, rebounding, passing, and basketball IQ is just much better than I thought

Did you see Pietrus tonight, he was impressive, would have loved to have gotten him.


In 6 years of posting together I can think of very few times that you & I have been in 100% agreement about an issue overall.

This is one of those times.

People who are questioning A.J.'s consitancy are completley overlooking that we had A.J. & Gill for more than half of last season & we ran a system just like this then.

If I'm not mistaken there was a period of time where A.J. avg. almost 8 assist to 1 T.O. a game.

Shade made a great point but in making a great point he made our point for us which you so aptly slammed home.

Jamaal Tinsley is the better more talented individual player. But that is exactly how he plays, an individual game. Does he drop beautifull passes? Hell yes, but like you said A.J. drops the passes that lead to scores & works like a dog without the ball.

Would Jamaal excell in an open free flowing offense? Not as well as you wold think. Rick wants controlled speed & movement, not wild flailing about on offense. Hence why Saras has been getting yanked early & often lately.

I'll say it now, whenever A.J. went to the bench our team went to *****.

Like I said before. I was a huge Jamaal Tinsley fan I was even a huge Jamaal Tinsley fan coming into this season although I had conceded the health fact & thought a trade was in order.

But now I am fully in the line of thinking that Jamaal's jersey next season should be something other than Blue & Gold.

Do I think that A.J. is a good long term starter? Not really. I have no problem with him starting but I would like something a little better.

However I am fully convinced that neither Jamaal or Saras are the answer at the p.g. spot either.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-11-2006, 03:12 AM
You must not remember AJ getting a tech for being the 6th man on the floor.

Four wins in a row and everybody is forgetting AJ has been part of the problem this year.

If Saras doesn't come though, I think this team will have a different point guard next year.

AJ has absolutely NOT been part of the problem this year. That one incident doesnt mean anything. That wasnt even really an incident, that tech was complete BS. I see players walk off the floor slowly all the time and not get that call, its actually pretty common. Please dont use one non-incident to throw AJ in with the other cancers on the team.

Raskolnikov
02-11-2006, 03:37 AM
Are you telling me Jamal Tinsley wont enjoy playing a fast-break type of offense that involves him being the floor general up and down the court? If anything, this allows Tinsley to be seen even more. If I were Tinsley, I would be dying to get back into this up-tempo and fun style of basketball. When you get vintage Jamal Tinsley, you get championship style basketball. Unfortunately, he's always to injured to show it.
When we're not on fast-break, our offense now has a lot of ball and player movement. As UB pointed out some of his previous posts, Jamaal is actually a true point guard, one that keeps the ball in his hands for a long time until he finds someone open or creates something himself. He is also not the kind of player that moves a lot without the ball. Unless Tinsley changes his ways the ball movement will suffer when he's out there. (No doubt Tinsley is individually our best PG, but that's not at stake here.)

You don't need a true PG that holds the ball very long for this kind of playing style. AJ doesn't hold the ball very long, Sarunas even mostly gives it up to Fred or Jack right away after he has crossed the halfcourt line, and then starts moving around, using screens, trying to get open.


Like I said, you need to bring him back slowly into the lineup and bring him off the bench until he consistently outperforms AJ..That way if he gets injured he wont throw off chemistry. I refuse to see how the addition of a player off the bench can throw off chemistry.

I agree that this is the way to bring him back. And when he fits into the offense, doesn't make our ball movement suffer (but that is to be seen), he will certainly outperform AJ.

Bball
02-11-2006, 03:48 AM
Unless AJ is the next Chauncey Billups (A guy who just improved tremendously late in his career) or we make a trade for a stud PG, Tins should NOT be the 3rd point guard when he comes back from injury. He may not be a saint, but he is no worse than Jackson/Harrison when it comes to attitude.

It is my belief he is worse than those two, or anyone else on the team, when it comes to attitude.


Yes, he is injury prone, but when he is available, he is the best we've got. So why not use him.

Because we don't need him and have more to lose than to gain by playing him. If we go on a losing streak or Saras or AJ get injured than maybe that argument turns around and you could say we do need him and we have more to gain than to lose by playing him.

Bringing him back, jerking around current PG's, ruining continuity, and then with his history of being back only temporarily means we'll be creating havoc for no long term gain.

And as UB has pointed out, it is not a fact he is well-suited for this offense. At best it is an assumption he'd be well-suited for this offense. It is very possible he'd be out of place in this offense when asked to make crisp passes and move without the ball.

But bigger than that, I see no reason to reward his bad attitude.


Our chemistry will have to change anyway when O'neal returns. Back to back games of AJ being unable to bring the ball up court just to start the offense and people will remember why Tinsley has been the starter for 5 years.

When/if that happens Tinsley should be sitting on the bench waiting his turn and opportunity. That would appear to be it. And if that opportunity never arises, then you'll have worried about nothing.


Another way to look at it: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

-Bball

Suaveness
02-11-2006, 03:54 AM
I don't know what the hell it is with the negativity regarding AJ. Seriously. UB, I am all for AJ starting. I have always admired his style of play, and like you said, he fits well this this team. I think one thing we've always been enamored with is the talent, the individual talent.

Frankly, I don't think that matters anymore. We need people who play together, and from what I'm seeing, this what we get right now. Players who want to be a team. Tinsley, for all his passing, just does not deserve to start. His attitude and decision making skills are just not what this team needs. We need a more level-headed team. I hope that is what we can eventually build, and I see AJ as being important to that, especially now. I still believe in Sarunas as well, and he's fine for a 2nd string PG. Tinsley can sit.

DeS
02-11-2006, 04:23 AM
I'll say it now, whenever A.J. went to the bench our team went to *****.
I agree with many of Your points (and with BBall's of course), but this is rahter exception than a trend. You can say that this game our bench was *****, but they scored less than half points they are usually averaging. Usually (~65%) the team advances as it switches to the bench (taking into account statistics from 82games).
I mean - as for this game, this is true, but I doubt that it is just to say it in the given context and certainly not true if we take into account the whole season (how many times the team went to ***** when AJ appeared on the court).
As for other things I agree - for the first time team appears balanced (team still in game, no matter if one of the units sucks).

Peck
02-11-2006, 04:27 AM
I agree with many of Your points (and with BBall's of course), but this is rahter exception than a trend. You can say that this game our bench was *****, but they scored less than half points they are usually averaging. Usually (~65%) the team advances as it switches to the bench (taking into account statistics from 82games).
I mean - as for this game, this is true, but I doubt that it is just to say it in the given context and certainly not true if we take into account the whole season (how many times the team went to ***** when AJ appeared on the court).
As for other things I agree - for the first time team appears balanced (team still in game, no matter if one of the units sucks).


I think you are mis-reading me or maybe I didn't make myself clear.

In THIS game whenever A.J. went to the bench the team went to *****. I've been very pleased with the bench the last three games, but in this one they just laid a big goose egg.

No need to fear though, I have faith the bench will return on Sunday.

Kegboy
02-11-2006, 04:57 AM
I'm not surprised at how well AJ is playing. Just like Peja and Scot, they are more comfortable in a cutting offense like the Princeton, or, as I like to call it, Rick's psuedo-Princeton.

However, I am surprised at the notion that Tinsley would suck in such an offense. Frankly, that's bull****. Or, perhaps people think we played ball-control under Isiah. :rolleyes:

D-BONE
02-11-2006, 07:46 AM
Bottom line, AJ can play. Not a star, but a solid option at the point. Has been a consistent professional throughout his career and paid his dues to get to this level. Tins has the potential to be the better starter/player, but until he proves/earns his way back to that level, AJ deserves the starting gig. Yes, this offense does suit him better than our traditional grind-it-out, but then again, who does not look better offensively in this scheme? I've been happy ever since we got AJ. Remember what he did to us as Kidd's back up in the playoffs when Ike was here? I wanted to strangle him! In any event, whether starting or not, he's a very valuable player.

Unclebuck
02-11-2006, 09:24 AM
How do you know that he is going to be an excellent player?
I would much rather put money on something proven than a maybe. The question still stands would you take him over Peja?


Let me say again I'm very happy with Peja. But if you had asked me 3 weeks ago, I would have rather had Pietrus and another player from the Warriors instead of Peja. But it is over and done with now, so I'm happy with Peja.

SoThenRobbieSaid
02-11-2006, 09:34 AM
I'm not sold on AJ being our starter full-time. I like him, and he's a solid NBA player, but he can't do a lot of the things Jamaal can. JT has much better court vision and ball-handeling skills, and in my opinion, those skills alone may keep him as starter. Yeah, AJ had a nice shooting night against G.S., but I think he along the same lines as Kidd in that his jumper is so-so.

However, he did bring us a win, 4 in a row! Keep it up, guys.

#31
02-11-2006, 10:06 AM
Unclebuck, im sorry but AJ aint more talanted than any of the pacer PGs... infact i think he is one of the worst. The game yesterday was good from him, but you cant judge a player after One game, because i dont think you would make this post if he didnt made some big shots in the 4th Q and scored 23 pts.

This is Basketball and this is NBA! Let me give you an example, i am also a basketball player for a 1st division team in Serbia / Montenegro.. i literally suck at shooting 3PT shots, but because of my experience i KNOW when im Hot or Not and then i know HOW to exploit that. Suddenly at the end of the game i have 6-10 3PTs made and i aint even a 3PT shooter! The next day i play normal and shoot .30% from 3PT line. That percentage and my talents is increased dramatically if i feel like some "better player" is threatening to take my starting position.

With other words, whatever way you do a trade.. it makes your team better! You know why? Because its a sign from the Coach he wants Better producing from that Position and guys like AJ either play the best they can and dont let a better player take this job... AJ is doing it well, but still, how long can he hold it? How long can he hold the best PG of Europe off?

The point is that AJ was hot yesterday and he is a veteran, he did exploit and gave it all! He even came close to his Career numbers, the next day he will get back to his old AJ and start making turnovers, miss shots, a bit of ballhoging. Thats the real AJ! He was really on fire, now you have to wait for Sarunas until he turns on fire... as you can see, there is no room for him to get on Fire, AJs "carpe diem" gamestyle and Peja / Jax there and even Granger/Freddy scoring over him, even tho Sarunas is better than most of them he cant do a crap! What a shame... but hey! we are winning!

aceace
02-11-2006, 10:13 AM
He is solid but not good enough for goals that Pacers should have with this roster. One or 2 games don't make a player. PG is still the weakest position that You guys have on both ends of the floor.He had a great second half last year, this is not just a few games. Tinsley gone would make him even better.

Ragnar
02-11-2006, 11:00 AM
Unclebuck Do you just make the argument you think is the most plausible at the moment? The reason I ask is that when Rick forst got here and benched Tinsley for Kenny Anderson you claimed at that time that Rick was right to bench Tinsley because Tinsley was good in a more open offense and on the fast break but could not run the half court.

Of course he came back and punched so many holes in your argument that you now must conced that he is better in the half court. If you want to argue that Tinsley cant say healthy and that AJ has been doing an adequate job then you may have a valid point. But when you start going kookoo and trying to claim that AJ is superior to Tinsley in any way shape or form (OTHER than staying healthy), thats when I have to point out the flaws in your absurd argument.

Tinsley is clearly better in the open court. I know he has been out for a while but go back to last season and look at the games without J.O. where they let Tinsley run the show and you would clearly see that we are better with him at the point. I know you for whatever reason dont like Jamaal but please at least stick with a valid argument.

Pacesetter
02-11-2006, 11:02 AM
AJ had a good game. Now let's see if he can put 5 or 10 of them together in succession! Sarunas had a poor outing last night and wasn't feeling it. Granger had a rough game too, as did Fred Jones. It's just going to happen.

AJ played well and set a precedent. Let's see if he can follow it! :)

Moses
02-11-2006, 11:14 AM
I really don't see how AJ is going to lead us to the promise land. AJ has a few good games and you guys are ready to announce him the starting PG even if Tinsley comes back and manages to stay healthy and play good.

The fact of the matter is, When Tinsley comes back 100% healthy and isn't rusty..he will be the starting PG. I think he could run this full court up-tempo style better then AJ any day of the week.

Here is a post by able a while back that really explains why Tinsley has been injured and his importance to our team.
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=335490#post335490

Unclebuck
02-11-2006, 11:25 AM
Unclebuck Do you just make the argument you think is the most plausible at the moment? The reason I ask is that when Rick forst got here and benched Tinsley for Kenny Anderson you claimed at that time that Rick was right to bench Tinsley because Tinsley was good in a more open offense and on the fast break but could not run the half court.

Of course he came back and punched so many holes in your argument that you now must conced that he is better in the half court. If you want to argue that Tinsley cant say healthy and that AJ has been doing an adequate job then you may have a valid point. But when you start going kookoo and trying to claim that AJ is superior to Tinsley in any way shape or form (OTHER than staying healthy), thats when I have to point out the flaws in your absurd argument.

Tinsley is clearly better in the open court. I know he has been out for a while but go back to last season and look at the games without J.O. where they let Tinsley run the show and you would clearly see that we are better with him at the point. I know you for whatever reason dont like Jamaal but please at least stick with a valid argument.


I wondered where you've been. Figured this thread would bring you out.

I just think when you add up everything involving AJ and Tinsley, all the pros and cons, everything involved, I think AJ is better for the Pacers right now

able
02-11-2006, 12:05 PM
I wondered where you've been. Figured this thread would bring you out.

I just think when you add up everything involving AJ and Tinsley, all the pros and cons, everything involved, I think AJ is better for the Pacers right now
And you don't stand a chance in any valid discussion with arguments on merits instead of sentiments (yours) to go anywhere near reaching your conclusion basd upon "everything involved"

I am once again amazed that ppl are so feeble, but then who am I.
BTW: Tinsley missed 7 games in 03-04 due to injury, the remainder was that the thought that we had a better PG on the roster, which was proven wrong.
I wil patiently wait till Tinsley is back on the roster and as Rick said, will get his backup minutes, once he does I think the over under is 2 games before he starts again.

Yes, compared to Sara AJ is a better PG
No, compared to Tins he is and remains a backup.

sweabs
02-11-2006, 12:09 PM
Yes, compared to Sara AJ is a better PG
No, compared to Tins he is and remains a backup.

No, compared to Tins he can actually dress up before each game and play.

That's all it comes down to for me, so I don't see the point in arguing it all. I prefer Point Guards who can point...I mean PLAY!

able
02-11-2006, 12:17 PM
No, compared to Tins he can actually dress up before each game and play.

That's all it comes down to for me, so I don't see the point in arguing it all. I prefer Point Guards who can point...I mean PLAY!
When you are going to make injury an argument, then it has become time to get rid of Cro, to many injuries, Jermaine, as Foster is obviously better since he plays and Pollard to for that matter.

oh wait, Pollard, played sparingly the past two years because of a back injury


oh wait, Jeff has not played that well the last two years because of ,...... hmm injury ?


Injury is not an argument to anything, 6 years of Bender should have made that fact clear.

Ask UB what he thinks of JB, or do you want me to find his early season posts ?

denyfizle
02-11-2006, 12:20 PM
Wow before we anoint AJ as the greatest PG in history, let me just remind you that AJ is an inconsistent PG. Yes, he played great last night. But what he did last night was what he's really best suited to do. He's more of an offensive point guard than a real point guard. He still has problems bringing the ball up under pressure, passing and running the offense. If he's not making shots, he reverts back to the AJ we all love to get traded. Until he can do this for a long period of time (same goes with Jack) I'm not one to jump on his bandwagon.

fifo
02-11-2006, 12:42 PM
Yes, compared to Sara AJ is a better PG
No, compared to Tins he is and remains a backup.

Both are unfair judgments IMHO.
- Saras did not get a real chance to do his thing (i.e. lead and have the coache's confidence).
- A.J didn't get a chance to start for more than several games in a row.

Seems to me the effect a player has on the team is much more important than this 'who's better' never-ending saga. This is especially true for p.g.

able
02-11-2006, 12:48 PM
Both are unfair judgments IMHO.
- Saras did not get a real chance to do his thing (i.e. lead and have the coache's confidence).
- A.J didn't get a chance to start for more than several games in a row.

Seems to me the effect a player has on the team is much more important than this 'who's better' never-ending saga. This is especially true for p.g.
Seems to me you missed a few years here with AJ on the Pacers, he had more games to start then the last series.

AJ has now won 4 in a row. Does it come anywhere near the W/L record Tinsley has ?

Let me help you: Not within a few miles.

fifo
02-11-2006, 12:52 PM
AJ has now won 4 in a row. Does it come anywhere near the W/L record Tinsley has ?

Let me help you: Not within a few miles.

A.J hasn't won four in a row. The pacers have won four in a row.
I Think what A.J won, considering all the pacers have been through this year, is the chance to get a fresh start... also for us fans.

Moses
02-11-2006, 01:10 PM
A.J hasn't won four in a row. The pacers have won four in a row.
I Think what A.J won, considering all the pacers have been through this year, is the chance to get a fresh start... also for us fans.
And Tinsley doesn't deserve a fresh start?

I guarantee you once Tinsley is healthy again and is coming off the bench, after a string of bad games from AJ, everyone at PD will be demanding his head and to put Tinsley back in. The fact of the matter is that when Tinsley is healthy, he is good. Consistently good. We have two inconsistent point guards. One is inconsistent in his play, AJ; the other is inconsistent in his health, Tinsley. Anyone who doubts Tinsley abilities in a fast-break offense has never seen him in a fast-break offense. He is faster and has better court vision then AJ and there isn't a doubt in my mind he could run the offense even better then AJ. Now if he could just get healthy and stay that way.

fifo
02-11-2006, 01:25 PM
And Tinsley doesn't deserve a fresh start?

Sure he does.
This year hasn't been great for him so far. His personal stats shows he can score, pass and rebound, probably better than our other p.gs. However the plus-minus index tells another story, and the injuries are a mess.
Anyway, he is a good player and surely deserves a chance. Right now, though, A.J. looks good as a starter, and Saras looks good with the 2nd unit.

able
02-11-2006, 01:36 PM
It is no shame to be a new Pacers supporter, not in the least, in fact I salute and applaud you, but if you have never seen Tinsley play over the past 4 years, then it is better not to get involved in a discussion on who is the better PG of the 3
And have faith, in the end it is not a matter of discussion, that's why I said wait till he gets his first minutes again.

fifo
02-11-2006, 01:51 PM
It is no shame to be a new Pacers supporter, not in the least, in fact I salute and applaud you, but if you have never seen Tinsley play over the past 4 years, then it is better not to get involved in a discussion on who is the better PG of the 3
And have faith, in the end it is not a matter of discussion, that's why I said wait till he gets his first minutes again.

Come'on..
This 'new guy' stuff does not address any of the issues I reffered to.
I have no problem with Tins,
It appears to me you're a real fan of him. That's OK with me.

able
02-11-2006, 02:08 PM
No it does address the isues of your statements, if you haven't or hardly ever see him play then how can you judge? You want me to believe what you and others are saying about Saras, but of which I have seen nothing or at the very least way to little to make a serious judgement, yet you want to address a 5 year NBA vet, that has proven among other things that is he's healthy he's one of the best PG's out there and can perform under pressure and is prepared to play even when injured.

Tinsley last year stepped up in a major way, and I refure to blame him for a screw up by the med staff of the Pacers.

Yes I do get upset about all these "attacks" on injured players, because they do not deserve that.
Fact is that these injured players are important kegs in the works that's called the Pacers.
Since they are players on a team I support, I support those players.
In the end I support the laundry and not the guy wearing it, but that doesn't mean I rip each and erey player that gets injured, or bash a player that's injured.

Concluding that Tinsley is the best point guard we have if healthy is not something anyone here who has seen him play is denying to begin with, except perhaps for UB, but he's still upset that Ron Ron is gone, so he needs an outlet. ;)

Bball
02-11-2006, 02:15 PM
Tinsley is not a 'team' player so he deserves plenty of heat for that. He deserves to be glued to the bench because of that. You can only smile and look the other way for so long before you have to deal with that.

The fact he is a walking injury and will rarely play is just the icing on the cake that should end any debates about whether Tinsley should get his spot handed to him on a silver platter.

As long as we're playing competitive basketball there is no debate.

-Bball

fifo
02-11-2006, 02:24 PM
No it does address the isues of your statements, if you haven't or hardly ever see him play then how can you judge? You want me to believe what you and others are saying about Saras, but of which I have seen nothing or at the very least way to little to make a serious judgement, yet you want to address a 5 year NBA vet, that has proven among other things that is he's healthy he's one of the best PG's out there and can perform under pressure and is prepared to play even when injured.

Tinsley last year stepped up in a major way, and I refure to blame him for a screw up by the med staff of the Pacers.

Yes I do get upset about all these "attacks" on injured players, because they do not deserve that.
Fact is that these injured players are important kegs in the works that's called the Pacers.
Since they are players on a team I support, I support those players.
In the end I support the laundry and not the guy wearing it, but that doesn't mean I rip each and erey player that gets injured, or bash a player that's injured.

Concluding that Tinsley is the best point guard we have if healthy is not something anyone here who has seen him play is denying to begin with, except perhaps for UB, but he's still upset that Ron Ron is gone, so he needs an outlet. ;)

The only judgment you saw from me on Tinsley, is him being a good player, who's having a bad period.
A 'screw up by the med staff of the Pacers' is something debatable at the least.
I have written my expressions over Saras after watching him play for several years. If you read my past posts you'll find I have addressed both his drawbacks and his pro's. I think I can fairly say you can not pass judgment on him, as you have'nt seen him in the right context.

Also, though I do not live in the U.S. It seems to me that UB has this comic gift.. I almost wish I knew him.

able
02-11-2006, 02:29 PM
Tinsley is not a 'team' player so he deserves plenty of heat for that. He deserves to be glued to the bench because of that. You can only smile and look the other way for so long before you have to deal with that.

The fact he is a walking injury and will rarely play is just the icing on the cake that should end any debates about whether Tinsley should get his spot handed to him on a silver platter.

As long as we're playing competitive basketball there is no debate.

-Bball
You are so far out of the truth and into grassy knoll territory that it is ridiculous, ran out of reasons to talk about this team being better without JO?

Tinsley, the same team-player that played injured to help this team advance in the playoffs, the same team player that imporved his scoring avg by nearly 10 points to carry this team and this ball club over the period that Ron, JO and Jax were suspended, want me to go on? Because I can give you facts that he's a team player over all the years he was here, like how he stayed ready and a real pro when hist starting job was given without much ceremony to Kenny Anderson, trust me, I base my opinoin on facts alone and not the presumptious weird face one the bench.

His "injuries" I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this "injury prone nonsense" is a collective effort of saying it often enough so someone will start believing it, this is the second year he is injured, the first being last year where the medical staff admitedly mis-diagnosed, this year he was rushed back to soon because our opther two PG's were playing so impressive.

There is indeed no debate, he's simply the best we got.

kellogg
02-11-2006, 02:43 PM
I've never been a big fan of AJ at the point. He's not particularly creative and although he'll go out and do well (like last night), he seems to tend to want to do too much the next game and ends up having a rotten game instead. I'm also not convinced he's starting material night in/night out due to that lack of consistency in his shot, on/off penetration ability, deficiency in playmaking skills, inability to see the floor, and proneness to turnovers overall.

That being said, though, right now he is the best PG on this team. I strongly suspect Sarunas will, by the end of this season or next, end up being the starter due to his superior shooting and playmaking, but to have AJ on this team is essential. He is the consummate professional, selfless, and reminds me of many teams' 'third' guard...a little like Vinnie Johnson for the Pistons years ago, not 'quite' a starter, but essential to the teams success.

I think that Tins probably has the most innate talent of the four, but he's so injury-prone, plays with no passion, and in the most inopportune moments reverts to street ball...and this is something I never really see AJ (or Sarunas) do. I think that AJ has definitely earned the starting job and it would be a crying shame if he goes back to being #2 or 3 when Tins returns. I would much prefer to put Tins' butt on the bench as the third stringer...seems like when Carlisle did that to him 2 years ago (and started Kenny Anderson and AJ ahead of him) it seemed to bring out the best in him...think it's important that Jamaal understand the starting job is earned based on superior play (and AJ AND Sarunas have both been better).

Bball
02-11-2006, 03:09 PM
You are so far out of the truth and into grassy knoll territory that it is ridiculous, ran out of reasons to talk about this team being better without JO?

Tinsley, the same team-player that played injured to help this team advance in the playoffs, the same team player that imporved his scoring avg by nearly 10 points to carry this team and this ball club over the period that Ron, JO and Jax were suspended, want me to go on? Because I can give you facts that he's a team player over all the years he was here, like how he stayed ready and a real pro when hist starting job was given without much ceremony to Kenny Anderson, trust me, I base my opinoin on facts alone and not the presumptious weird face one the bench.

His "injuries" I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this "injury prone nonsense" is a collective effort of saying it often enough so someone will start believing it, this is the second year he is injured, the first being last year where the medical staff admitedly mis-diagnosed, this year he was rushed back to soon because our opther two PG's were playing so impressive.

There is indeed no debate, he's simply the best we got.

Your defense of Tinsley is beyond reason. He is a walking injury... Deal with it.

-Bball

Suaveness
02-11-2006, 03:17 PM
Tinsley is just too hurt to ever contribute properly. And when he doesn't get the time he wants, he sulks on the bench. He plays too much "street ball". I just don't see why he should start. Yes, he is talented, who gives a ****. I want people who actually play consistantly.

Ragnar
02-11-2006, 03:46 PM
I wondered where you've been. Figured this thread would bring you out.

I just think when you add up everything involving AJ and Tinsley, all the pros and cons, everything involved, I think AJ is better for the Pacers right now

The ONLY con on Jamaal V AJ is that Jamaal over the last couple of years has been injured way too much. Last year it was mainly a very poorly diagnosed foot injury that actually got worse before they had it properly diagnosed and he would have been out far less had the diagnosis been correct from the begining. I dont know about this year's other than that he had come back too soon.

My problem is your argument that Tinsley is not good in the open court and that AJ is. You made the exact OPPOSITE argument two years ago. You claimed at the time that AJ was better in the half court (you were wrong) and that Tinsley was better suited for the open court (yes he is but he was still better in the half court than AJ)

Now you are saying AJ is better in the half court and he is better in the open court than he is in the open court but he is in no way shape or form better than Tinsley.

The ONLY valid argument against Jamaal is his injuries these last couple of years. Not that AJ is in any way a better player. This myth you are trying to create that Tinsley is not good in the open court goes against everything we have seen out of Jamaal since he got here.

I am frustrated about him being out of so many games. But I am also frustrated that Jermaine seems to miss so many and at playoff time. I am frustrated that it takes Jermaine and Jamaal being out for our coach to scrap the win durring the regular season but not in the playoffs system he had been running.

If you want to argue Tinsley should not start the argument begins and ends with Injuries not performance please dont try to re write history.

Los Angeles
02-11-2006, 03:50 PM
A few thoughts in no particular order:

I think all this talk about Tinsley being injured and AJ being healthy could put a hex on AJ. If AJ breaks his hand again (remember how he didn't start the season last year), a lot of this argument will sound stupid.

That said, our players are playing great because of consistency in both personell availability (i.e. rotation) AND energy.

I can see AJ starting the rest of the way just to help provide the consistency we need if we want to play better and better basketball.

I'm not sure if AJ can keep this up, considering we're seeing AJ as "Super AJ", not the guy we've been watching for years.

I also can't predict the future. If we get "solved" soon, and begin losing a string of games, we're going to need to change things up again to win games. That may very well mean bringing back Tinsley.

BTW, Tinsley getting injured in the ECFs was a major health issue that was not included in your list, able. That was where the problem was identified for many doubters, myself included.

To quote myself from the beginning of the season: "I support the guys who play in the game. The guys who play in the game. Who play in the game."

Tinsley isn't playing and AJ is playing well, and the future isn't here yet. We should all wait for this discussion until both are healthy, both are playing great, and Rick really has a tough choice on his hands. So far, the choices have been made for him.

Lithfan
02-11-2006, 03:51 PM
I think most people here would agree that stats are made exactly for this case.

Last game was a fluctuation! Not more.

AJ is getting a lot of credit lately and he is solid player.

However he has no much creativity, he is 32 and his statistics, especially 3pt FG% are lower than Saras's though Saras is a rookie and still searching his way with Pacers and NBA.

So it is clear that Saras is better PG, but maybe i'll agree with UB, let more experienced player to start. It might be better for Saras development, after all.

Tinsley I'm not counting at all. He is non-playing non-factor this year.

Ragnar
02-11-2006, 03:55 PM
I think most people here would agree that stats are made exactly for this case.

Last game was a fluctuation! Not more.

AJ is getting a lot of credit lately and he is solid player.

However he has no much creativity, he is 32 and his statistics, especially FG% are lower than Saras's though Saras is a rookie and still searching his way with Pacers and NBA.

So it is clear that Saras is better PG, but maybe i'll agree with UB, let more experienced player to start. It might be better for Saras development, after all.

Tinsley I'm not counting at all. He is non-playing non-factor this year.

Lithfan I am sorry but this is an area where stats are not showing the story. I was on the Sarunas bandwagon. I thought he should be starting when Tinsley is out and the backup when he is playing. I wanted AJ out of town on the first bus.

But right now these last 4 games AJ has been the better PG and deserved the start in all 4. You just have to watch the games.

Lithfan
02-11-2006, 04:12 PM
Lithfan I am sorry but this is an area where stats are not showing the story. I was on the Sarunas bandwagon. I thought he should be starting when Tinsley is out and the backup when he is playing. I wanted AJ out of town on the first bus.

But right now these last 4 games AJ has been the better PG and deserved the start in all 4. You just have to watch the games.

I would love to!!!

But I don't need to watch the game to know that in last game (Why four?) AJ was better, I agree with that. Its just not enough, season is comprised of 72 games, right?

And 47 show that so far Saras was better (even though he's a rookie, coach hates him and other bla-bla-bla)

However I agree with UB point, AJ should be Pacers PG now since he is playing his career games.

Peck
02-11-2006, 04:13 PM
These posts are funny as hell.

We litterally have a three way dance between the Tinsley faction, the Saras faction & the A.J. faction.

Guess what, none of them should be the starting p.g. next season.

I like A.J. as a backup. I have no problem with Saras as a backup. Jamaal should be a starter, but just not here.

I'm looking for a new p.g. to lead the team next season.

Andre Miller would be nice but I'm willing to look at about anybody.

The only thing I want to comment on is this Jamaal has missed 108 games in a 5 year career & has played in 268.

For those that want to lay the blame at the feet of the Pacers medical staff last season for his foot let me ask this. Explain the 12 games he missed for sinus problems before his foot was injured? Now explain this year why he has had further sinus problems? Yes, I know the obvious answer is he has sinus problems. But it just goes into his durability.

Like I said, I am a recent convert to the anti-Jamaal bandwagon. U.B. & myself disagreed over him over the years. But now I just believe that it's time to move on.

Bball
02-11-2006, 04:29 PM
I would love to!!!

But I don't need to watch the game to know that in last game (Why four?) AJ was better, I agree with that. Its just not enough, season is comprised of 72 games, right?

.

82...

-Bball

able
02-11-2006, 04:41 PM
These posts are funny as hell.

We litterally have a three way dance between the Tinsley faction, the Saras faction & the A.J. faction.

Guess what, none of them should be the starting p.g. next season.

I like A.J. as a backup. I have no problem with Saras as a backup. Jamaal should be a starter, but just not here.

I'm looking for a new p.g. to lead the team next season.

Andre Miller would be nice but I'm willing to look at about anybody.

The only thing I want to comment on is this Jamaal has missed 108 games in a 5 year career & has played in 268.

For those that want to lay the blame at the feet of the Pacers medical staff last season for his foot let me ask this. Explain the 12 games he missed for sinus problems before his foot was injured? Now explain this year why he has had further sinus problems? Yes, I know the obvious answer is he has sinus problems. But it just goes into his durability.

Like I said, I am a recent convert to the anti-Jamaal bandwagon. U.B. & myself disagreed over him over the years. But now I just believe that it's time to move on.

I try to be funny, but fail since I'm serious.
Thank whoever for the that fact, because I'm a lousy comedian.

wow a whole 12 games for sinus problems? you are medically schooled, what would your advise be to someone with continuing sinus problems?

Yeah thought so, a relative minor op in the off-season and hoopla :)

Makes you wonder why no one on the P's medical staff suggested that.

108 - what 32? where he was benched in favour of .... Kenny Anderson!
Please, be factaual correct, yes he has spend (inlcuding flue and sinus problems) 76 games and counting on the IRL, hmm number looks a lot better, let's see.....ah what, fo'get it, it's not worth it.

From now on I will refrain from posting all together.

Peck
02-11-2006, 04:44 PM
I try to be funny, but fail since I'm serious.
Thank whoever for the that fact, because I'm a lousy comedian.

wow a whole 12 games for sinus problems? you are medically schooled, what would your advise be to someone with continuing sinus problems?

Yeah thought so, a relative minor op in the off-season and hoopla :)

Makes you wonder why no one on the P's medical staff suggested that.

108 - what 32? where he was benched in favour of .... Kenny Anderson!
Please, be factaual correct, yes he has spend (inlcuding flue and sinus problems) 76 games and counting on the IRL, hmm number looks a lot better, let's see.....ah what, fo'get it, it's not worth it.

From now on I will refrain from posting all together.


My medical advise for his sinus infection would be to stop doing blow....Oops, I said that out loud.

MagicRat
02-11-2006, 04:48 PM
:shakehead

Bball
02-11-2006, 04:50 PM
From now on I will refrain from posting all together.

Considering your defense of Tinsley's injury 'proneness' is straining your credibility because it is flying in the face of all reason... right into the land of bizarre.... then you might be onto something by stepping back.

-Bball

Jermaniac
02-11-2006, 04:53 PM
My medical advise for his sinus infection would be to stop doing blow....Oops, I said that out loud.So now we are accusing our players of sniffing cocaine? Okay thats cool. Why isnt he out of the league? I bet he got tested at least once the past 3 years why isnt he failing any tests?

Unclebuck
02-11-2006, 04:58 PM
My problem is your argument that Tinsley is not good in the open court and that AJ is. You made the exact OPPOSITE argument two years ago. You claimed at the time that AJ was better in the half court (you were wrong) and that Tinsley was better suited for the open court (yes he is but he was still better in the half court than AJ)




Well I can't remember every point I make.

Tinsley is excellent in the open court. He is good in the half-court but he tends to dominant the ball (as most really good point guards do) Nash dominates the ball as much as anyone. But Tinsley is not Nash and the Pacers right now are playing a different halfcourt style that they did in their 61 win season, they are almost playing a passing game now, and Tinsley is not effective in that system because he is only effective when he has the basketball

The point I'm making right now, is in the current offense the Pacers using AJ is more effective than Tinsley will be. Once Tinsley comes back watch the ball movement become a lot less.
That is my point


My other important point I need to make is that it sure seems strange to be on the same side of an argument with Bball and Peck. Not sure it has ever happened before.

Lithfan
02-11-2006, 05:02 PM
82...

-Bball

oops

BlueNGold
02-11-2006, 05:11 PM
Well I can't remember every point I make.

Tinsley is excellent in the open court. He is good in the half-court but he tends to dominant the ball (as most really good point guards do) Nash dominates the ball as much as anyone. But Tinsley is not Nash and the Pacers right now are playing a different halfcourt style that they did in their 61 win season, they are almost playing a passing game now, and Tinsley is not effective in that system because he is only effective when he has the basketball

The point I'm making right now, is in the current offense the Pacers using AJ is more effective than Tinsley will be. Once Tinsley comes back watch the ball movement become a lot less.
That is my point


My other important point I need to make is that it sure seems strange to be on the same side of an argument with Bball and Peck. Not sure it has ever happened before.

Has Tins had a chance to play this new style yet? If he can fit in, his passing and penetration skills could make for an even more effective and entertaining team.

...but I think the Pacers may be better off with a rotation of AJ and Saras anyway simply from a chemistry and maturity standpoint. This is coming from someone who has been down on AJ's game for a long time. His play, not just of late, has convinced me he can share the load with Saras. He does have those games where he is awful, but they seem to come further and further apart.

D-BONE
02-11-2006, 05:23 PM
Tinsley has more raw talent that AJ. Talent does not necessarily mean a player is the best fit for the success of a team. I think BNG's point about Tins not having had an opportunity to work in this offense is valid. AJ's the best choice for the near future b/c we're performing well with him at the helm. If Rick let's JT work from the bench in some capacity and he shows that he'll flourish and be a significantly better option than the others, I'm fine if he gets a shot. If he fails to perform or adapt, I'm fine w/ AJ. I honestly think that some that are down on AJ are a little exaggerated on how "bad" he is or was or has been. I repeat, not a star, but a solid option that can contribute to a winning team.

Peck
02-11-2006, 06:06 PM
My medical advise for his sinus infection would be to stop doing blow....Oops, I said that out loud.


I forgot add a wink smilie.

So let me add it now ;)

I was kidding people.

Arcadian
02-11-2006, 06:32 PM
Anything that AJ can do; Tins can do better.

If you want to make the injury arguement fine I'm there with you but I think your forgetting how good Tins can be. This is the Tinsley that Peck called the best pg in the NBA.

I'm going to assume here that everyone wants to win a championship more than Donnie Walsh (;)) and don't just want a competative team.

If you believe that this team just needs steady, average point guard play to win a championship then AJ might be your guy. If you think we need a great point guard play what elite pg guard is on the market? Nash, Parker, Billups? We are not going to trade for one. Our best chance at an elite pg is for Tins to figure out how to stay on the court.

This isn't a Bender situation were we are hoping the player is going to be healthy and great. We are just hoping the player will be healthy; we already know he can play. Is it a roll of the dice, a risk? Yes. But isn't taking risks what so many have said they want Walsh to do? Is taking a risk any less valid when it involves your own player rather than someone else's? I don't think so.

Bball
02-11-2006, 06:37 PM
But isn't taking risks what so many have said they want Walsh to do? Is taking a risk any less valid when it involves your own player rather than someone else's? I don't think so.

Admitting mistakes and moving on is what I want Walsh to do.

-Bball

Los Angeles
02-11-2006, 06:38 PM
Anything that AJ can do; Tins can do better.

If you want to make the injury arguement fine I'm there with you but I think your forgetting how good Tins can be. This is the Tinsley that Peck called the best pg in the NBA.

I'm going to assume here that everyone wants to win a championship more than Donnie Walsh (;)) and don't just want a competative team.

If you believe that this team just needs steady, average point guard play to win a championship then AJ might be your guy. If you think we need a great point guard play what elite pg guard is on the market? Nash, Parker, Billups? We are not going to trade for one. Our best chance at an elite pg is for Tins to figure out how to stay on the court.

This isn't a Bender situation were we are hoping the player is going to be healthy and great. We are just hoping the player will be healthy; we already know he can play. Is it a roll of the dice, a risk? Yes. But isn't taking risks what so many have said they want Walsh to do? Is taking a risk any less valid when it involves your own player rather than someone else's? I don't think so.
I'll avoid the Walsh/risk issue.

But here we are - Tins popping in and out of the line up hurts the team more than keeping him out. I'm talking in pure "the team that plays together gets better together" terms.

Remember, nobody thought Tom Brady was an elite QB until he started winning superbowls. In fact, skills wise, he still isn't. Obviously, skills are only a part of the package.

Bball
02-11-2006, 06:39 PM
Anything that AJ can do; Tins can do better.

If you want to make the injury arguement fine I'm there with you but I think your forgetting how good Tins can be.

And some people are fotgetting how 'bad' Tinsley can be on several fronts as well.

-Bball

Peck
02-11-2006, 06:40 PM
Anything that AJ can do; Tins can do better.

If you want to make the injury arguement fine I'm there with you but I think your forgetting how good Tins can be. This is the Tinsley that Peck called the best pg in the NBA.
I'm going to assume here that everyone wants to win a championship more than Donnie Walsh (;)) and don't just want a competative team.

If you believe that this team just needs steady, average point guard play to win a championship then AJ might be your guy. If you think we need a great point guard play what elite pg guard is on the market? Nash, Parker, Billups? We are not going to trade for one. Our best chance at an elite pg is for Tins to figure out how to stay on the court.

This isn't a Bender situation were we are hoping the player is going to be healthy and great. We are just hoping the player will be healthy; we already know he can play. Is it a roll of the dice, a risk? Yes. But isn't taking risks what so many have said they want Walsh to do? Is taking a risk any less valid when it involves your own player rather than someone else's? I don't think so.


Yip, like I said I am a recent convert to the "trade Jamaal" faction. Mine has to do with injury's but I also admit that I wonder how well he would do when he is asked to not dribble the ball or handle the ball as much.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think A.J. is the long term answer at point & truth be told he probably doesn't think he is either. But I would like to be able to not have to rely on backup p.g.'s for over half of our seasons.

Moses
02-11-2006, 07:05 PM
Sure he does.
This year hasn't been great for him so far. His personal stats shows he can score, pass and rebound, probably better than our other p.gs. However the plus-minus index tells another story, and the injuries are a mess.
Anyway, he is a good player and surely deserves a chance. Right now, though, A.J. looks good as a starter, and Saras looks good with the 2nd unit.
Danny Granger isn't to well on the plus-minus index. Right there below Tinsley.

Moses
02-11-2006, 07:08 PM
I hate that "plus-minus" stat.

I think that may be the most useless stat in modern day basketball......
Yet so many people use it to crucify Tinsley. So the only thing you have against Tinsley is his injuries..Which he's missed a total of 82 games for. About half of those were due to a mis-diagnosed injury and the other due to various sicknesses and pulls. I fail to see how he is so "injury-prone" and "selfish."

Some people just hate Tinsley to hate Tinsley.

Bball
02-11-2006, 07:18 PM
Everybody that is 'for' Tinsley (or are on the fence) believe 'what' in regards to JO's much publicized "Trade Artest, Tinsley, and Mercer" demand of a couple of years ago?

Do you believe it was a madeup quote? Was he mistaken (and knows it) to have included Tinsley on his list?

How do you justify that with your position?

-Bball

Kstat
02-11-2006, 07:19 PM
This discussion is nothing a few pistols and thirty paces can't fix....

Arcadian
02-11-2006, 07:26 PM
Everybody that is 'for' Tinsley (or are on the fence) believe 'what' in regards to JO's much publicized "Trade Artest, Tinsley, and Mercer" demand of a couple of years ago?

Do you believe it was a madeup quote? Was he mistaken (and knows it) to have included Tinsley on his list?

How do you justify that with your position?

-Bball

You mean the Vessey said IT put JO up to? Jo has also giving a lot of praise to Tins as well.

As far as that season goes Tins was horrible. His mother was also dying of cancer. I wouldn't want my job preformance judged while having that going on in my life. Looking back it obviously the circumstances affected his play.

Moses
02-11-2006, 07:53 PM
I actually had stayed out of this thread for the most part, but since you want to call me out, Ill gladly respond.

I have a lot more of a problem with Mel-Mel with his injuries. The main one being his attitude, the other one being his style of play.

As for his injury problems, your just being naive if you are going to blame the medical staff, and the medical staff alone.
I never blamed the medical staff for the fact that he got injured..But mis-diagnosing one of his injuries causing him to miss an additional 30 games? I have no problem saying that Tinsley doesn't get injured every now and then, But you have to have a pretty crappy medical staff to mis-diagnose an injury on a professional level.

What attitude are you speaking of? Being angry when we aren't winning? I haven't seen Jamal angry once at anything except when we are losing games. I understand some people may dislike his style of play because he sometimes drifts into a rucker style play of basketball like so many of the other guards in this league.

MagicRat
02-11-2006, 08:05 PM
Everybody that is 'for' Tinsley (or are on the fence) believe 'what' in regards to JO's much publicized "Trade Artest, Tinsley, and Mercer" demand of a couple of years ago?

Do you believe it was a madeup quote? Was he mistaken (and knows it) to have included Tinsley on his list?

How do you justify that with your position?

-Bball

I'll have to go with "He was mistaken."

If we're using JO's opinion about Jamaal, I'll go with one that's a little more recent:

"He's the engine that makes the car run," O'Neal said. "I've always said he's our MVP. He breaks down defenses, he brings the ball up the court, he gives guys easy shots. He hit Dale Davis on a couple of passes that got there so quick, Dale almost didn't know to go up with the shot."

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050504/COLUMNISTS01/505040438/1088

Moses
02-11-2006, 08:08 PM
What attitude? If we didnt have Artest on our team, I am confident we would hear a lot more about him blowing off coaches instructions and for faking injuries because he is upset about his status.

And I like how you threw in the "like so many of the other guards in this league." Its funny, that a great excuse. And thats all it is: An excuse.

I can think of plenty of player who dont play that style, but of course, so many others do, so clearly its acceptable :rolleyes:

I happen to really like Mel-Mel, or I did, before I got sick and tired of his injury proneness. And I have seen plenty of players break the offense, but Mel-Mel takes it to a new level.

As for the medicial stuff, that was one instance. And coming from someone who has had his athletic career ruined due to injuries, I can acknowledge that even pro medical staffs make mistakes...
Faking injuries?

Do you have an inside source or do you and the Tinman just hang out over the weekend?

Suaveness
02-11-2006, 08:19 PM
Yet so many people use it to crucify Tinsley. So the only thing you have against Tinsley is his injuries..Which he's missed a total of 82 games for. About half of those were due to a mis-diagnosed injury and the other due to various sicknesses and pulls. I fail to see how he is so "injury-prone" and "selfish."

Some people just hate Tinsley to hate Tinsley.


Imagine a world if people didn't like people just for the heck of it. Why bother having reasons, lets just hate! Sounds like a lot of fun :laugh:

Moses
02-11-2006, 08:22 PM
Imagine a world if people didn't like people just for the heck of it. Why bother having reasons, lets just hate! Sounds like a lot of fun :laugh:
It seems like it sometimes :laugh:

I am not saying Tinsley can be relied on right now but what I am saying is to give him a chance once he does come back. I want whats best for this team and I want a championship. Do you think AJ or Saras can lead us there? Tinsley gives us the best shot at the championship.* And Sinusitis is real and can be very problematic. You basically wake up for 2 weeks straight with swollen eyes and a headache. Just so you know its real because your quotes made it seem as though it was a made up illness.



*When Healthy

Ragnar
02-11-2006, 08:31 PM
The point I'm making right now, is in the current offense the Pacers using AJ is more effective than Tinsley will be. Once Tinsley comes back watch the ball movement become a lot less.
That is my point

Again just like when you were making the claims before you are only able to get away with making them because Tinsley is not on the court proving you wrong. Mark my words after the all star break he WILL prove you wrong. Last time is was because Rick had him benched this time its because of injury but you will be proven wrong on this yet again.

(BTW I think Tins is ready and healthy now but Rick is making him wait untill after the all star game)


As far as the plus minus stat. There is something seriousley wrong because he was 2nd on the team when he went down with his injury. So they are taking off for his time being injured. When he plays his plus minus is always good.

There was a short period of time where Sarunas had a higher plus minus but then the league "figured him out" and his stat went down.

And that brings up another point I would like to make. Just like Ricks first season here he got away with Kenny at the begining because the league had to adjust to the newly changed Pacers. Once they "solved" us we started playing .500 ball. What will you all think of this team once the league re adjusts to the new system? In many ways I hope they do it while Tinsley is out so you can compare apples to apples and clearly see that Tinsley is VASTLY superior to AJ.

Moses
02-11-2006, 08:36 PM
Unfortunately, with Mel-Mel, that is a HUGE if.

As for Sinusitis, I have had it, I know itís painful. Itís just to coincidental that he has all these problems after he has been benched/gets into a feud with the coaching staff.
My original plan was to make that little disclaimer in the smallest font possible at the bottom of the page but I got lazy. Maybe he does have a bad attitude but you have to remember, I'm in the :sunshine: brigade. I just want this team to win the big one and the only way I see that happening this year is through Tinsley.

Unclebuck
02-11-2006, 08:42 PM
Bball, Vescey said a few weeks ago, that Isiah Thomas put J.O up to demanding those three guys be traded. He got J.O to go to DW and make that demand.

Kegboy
02-11-2006, 08:43 PM
We litterally have a three way dance between the Tinsley faction, the Saras faction & the A.J. faction.

Hey, you forgot the Gill faction. :wave:

Come on Peck, everybody can tell you're close to jumping on board the Gill-wagon. You know you want to. :cool:

[edit] And for the record, we all know Rick got Jamaal snorting. [/libel] :-p

MagicRat
02-11-2006, 08:44 PM
Well I can't remember every point I make.

Here's a little refresher:



I take back every bad thing I've ever said about Tinsley....Let me start off on Tinsley. The man has balls. I have never criticized Tinsley's mental toughness, never ever in any of my posts the past three years.
-------------------
Tinsley is mentally tough, I think perhaps too mentally tough for his own good over the years. But he is not afraid to take big shots
--------------
I was most impressed by how smart Tinsley played tonight. He constantly and consistantly created ofense for his teammates, he was able to get into the lane and he was causing the Raptors trouble with his penetration.

Tinsey also had 5 steals which was nice but I can't get over how much Tinsley has improved at running the Pacers offense in the halfcourt, he has always been been great in the open court on the fastbreak, but I thinbk he has learned what a point guard with his skills is supposed to do in the halfcourt.
------------------
But I don't how many points Tinsley scored in Game #1, Tinsley played a better game tonight.

He ran the team to perfection in the third quarter, he created for his teammates, got them easier shots, he got the team running its offense, moving the ball.

Yes I realize JT scored 17 pts in game 1, but I liked his play in game #2 much better. No turnovers, he was superb.
-------------

He was so efficient, he made the right pass everytime. How many times did he get the ball to Artest deep in the paint. For the first time ever I actually wanted Tinsley to shoot the ball when he was wide open late in regulation at the three pt line.

Tinsley controlled the whole game with his passing and playmaking.

Outstanding game
-------------------
Tinsley was the best player on the court tonight, he dominated the game. But I found it very interesting to watch Tinsley tonight. Sure he played great, but because of the injuries and suspensions, Tinsley was allowed to control the whole game. He was allowed to play a controlled "street game".

Tinsley always had great hands, but this season his legs are in great shpae so now he can get close to the ball and if he does he will come up with steals.
--------------

Kegboy
02-11-2006, 08:51 PM
:beat:

Ooo, OOO, come on Rat, don't hurt him!

Peck
02-11-2006, 09:23 PM
Hey, you forgot the Gill faction. :wave:

Come on Peck, everybody can tell you're close to jumping on board the Gill-wagon. You know you want to. :cool:

[edit] And for the record, we all know Rick got Jamaal snorting. [/libel] :-p

Actually all kidding aside, I have no problem with Ed Gill. As a third string p.g. he is everything I want.

He comes to work every day, he doesn't cause problems, he leads the cheers from the bench, he is more than capable of elevating to second tier p.g. if somebody gets injured or sick.

Would I ever want to start Ed Gill? No.

Would I ever want to depend our playoff hopes on Ed Gill? No.

But not everybody can be a star & on our team we need players just like Ed who are ready when their time comes & doesn't cause problems in the between times.

Peck
02-11-2006, 09:24 PM
Here's a little refresher:



I take back every bad thing I've ever said about Tinsley....Let me start off on Tinsley. The man has balls. I have never criticized Tinsley's mental toughness, never ever in any of my posts the past three years.
-------------------
Tinsley is mentally tough, I think perhaps too mentally tough for his own good over the years. But he is not afraid to take big shots
--------------
I was most impressed by how smart Tinsley played tonight. He constantly and consistantly created ofense for his teammates, he was able to get into the lane and he was causing the Raptors trouble with his penetration.

Tinsey also had 5 steals which was nice but I can't get over how much Tinsley has improved at running the Pacers offense in the halfcourt, he has always been been great in the open court on the fastbreak, but I thinbk he has learned what a point guard with his skills is supposed to do in the halfcourt.
------------------
But I don't how many points Tinsley scored in Game #1, Tinsley played a better game tonight.

He ran the team to perfection in the third quarter, he created for his teammates, got them easier shots, he got the team running its offense, moving the ball.

Yes I realize JT scored 17 pts in game 1, but I liked his play in game #2 much better. No turnovers, he was superb.
-------------

He was so efficient, he made the right pass everytime. How many times did he get the ball to Artest deep in the paint. For the first time ever I actually wanted Tinsley to shoot the ball when he was wide open late in regulation at the three pt line.

Tinsley controlled the whole game with his passing and playmaking.

Outstanding game
-------------------
Tinsley was the best player on the court tonight, he dominated the game. But I found it very interesting to watch Tinsley tonight. Sure he played great, but because of the injuries and suspensions, Tinsley was allowed to control the whole game. He was allowed to play a controlled "street game".

Tinsley always had great hands, but this season his legs are in great shpae so now he can get close to the ball and if he does he will come up with steals.
--------------

Oh sure, every thing looks bad if you remember it. ;)

kellogg
02-12-2006, 12:36 AM
The problem with Tins (and I recall I thought I heard even Slick and Mark Boyle comment on this) that his defense is poor.

Bad elbow or not, that doesn't effect his feet or his other good arm, or ability to hustle...his defense was abysmal prior to his most recent injury.

You can always have a poor game offensively...or not be a very good offensive player in the first place...but the lack of hustle is inexcusable. Heck, three of the least athletic players on this squad show hustle (Foster, Croshere, Pollard)...

Kstat
02-12-2006, 12:46 AM
Can I be part of the Tim Hardaway faction?

Jon Theodore
02-12-2006, 01:57 AM
Can I be part of the TIm Hardaway faction?


best post to come out of this thread

denyfizle
02-12-2006, 03:31 AM
ohh... i thought this was an old Tim Hardaway acquisition thread.

Bball
02-12-2006, 04:53 AM
Bball, Vescey said a few weeks ago, that Isiah Thomas put J.O up to demanding those three guys be traded. He got J.O to go to DW and make that demand.

I was making the assumption JO had to feel the same way as Isiah on the subject or else he wouldn't have actually followed thru on taking it to DW.

But I could be wrong... I just don't see JO as a robot doing someone else's bidding if he wasn't on the same page.

-Bball

Raskolnikov
02-12-2006, 06:12 AM
If Tinsley doesn't make our ball movement suffer, then watch out Eastern Conference. I just have my doubts based on what I've seen this season. I hope he proves my doubts wrong.

DeS
02-12-2006, 07:16 AM
And that brings up another point I would like to make. Just like Ricks first season here he got away with Kenny at the begining because the league had to adjust to the newly changed Pacers. Once they "solved" us we started playing .500 ball...
BTW, Kenny is playing like a crap in EuroLeague (I :pray: no too long). He can't hit the basket (~17% FG (2/12); I wonder if it's not his mental problem). He can't defend. He has some dribble and penetration, but he's lost like a child after he penetrates the zone (usualy he takes a forced shot). That's all for "NBA veterans play succesfuly in EL". Saras looks like a basketball god compared to him, even considering the defence. So, we (ZALGIRIS) ended with AJ/Gill equivalents (too bad we have no Saras equivalent), Kenny being a minus almost everytime he steps on the court.
I still believe in Kenny (to imporve shooting, and leading the offense), but seeing his game I can't believe he was good/ok in the NBA.

Unclebuck
02-12-2006, 09:40 AM
Here's a little refresher:



I take back every bad thing I've ever said about Tinsley....Let me start off on Tinsley. The man has balls. I have never criticized Tinsley's mental toughness, never ever in any of my posts the past three years.
-------------------
Tinsley is mentally tough, I think perhaps too mentally tough for his own good over the years. But he is not afraid to take big shots
--------------
I was most impressed by how smart Tinsley played tonight. He constantly and consistantly created ofense for his teammates, he was able to get into the lane and he was causing the Raptors trouble with his penetration.

Tinsey also had 5 steals which was nice but I can't get over how much Tinsley has improved at running the Pacers offense in the halfcourt, he has always been been great in the open court on the fastbreak, but I thinbk he has learned what a point guard with his skills is supposed to do in the halfcourt.
------------------
But I don't how many points Tinsley scored in Game #1, Tinsley played a better game tonight.

He ran the team to perfection in the third quarter, he created for his teammates, got them easier shots, he got the team running its offense, moving the ball.

Yes I realize JT scored 17 pts in game 1, but I liked his play in game #2 much better. No turnovers, he was superb.
-------------

He was so efficient, he made the right pass everytime. How many times did he get the ball to Artest deep in the paint. For the first time ever I actually wanted Tinsley to shoot the ball when he was wide open late in regulation at the three pt line.

Tinsley controlled the whole game with his passing and playmaking.

Outstanding game
-------------------
Tinsley was the best player on the court tonight, he dominated the game. But I found it very interesting to watch Tinsley tonight. Sure he played great, but because of the injuries and suspensions, Tinsley was allowed to control the whole game. He was allowed to play a controlled "street game".

Tinsley always had great hands, but this season his legs are in great shpae so now he can get close to the ball and if he does he will come up with steals.
--------------


I deny every word of it, either I've been taken out of context, been misquoted, or I was just a little crazy.

Actually I remember posting all of that. But none of it this year.

MR, can you put together a listing of my comments about Artest over the years. I never got around to writing my farewell to Artest post, so you could make it easier for me.

MagicRat
02-12-2006, 10:50 AM
MR, can you put together a listing of my comments about Artest over the years. I never got around to writing my farewell to Artest post, so you could make it easier for me.
You can start here: http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6127

And then add in these:
-----------
Let me get to Artest. I see someone has started the "trade Artrest" thread already. Let me say over my dead body. I hope he never plays a game in anything other than a Pacers uniform. I love him, and I'll win or lose with Ronnie. No one plays harder, no one is more competitive. IMO he played a great game tonight, he defended Rip as well as anyone could, and that is a tough matchup for him.

--------------
Forget about Artest's defense, forget about his toughness, forget about his stamina, forget about his effort, hustle, energy, forget about all those things.

Ron Artest is the Pacers best go to guy. J.O IMO is a very close second behind Ronnie. Late in a close game the pacers have more success going to Artest, he either scores, gets fouled, or creates a good shot for a teammate.

In the Jazz game he had one of tghe best defenders in the whole NBA guarding him, and Ronnie scored most of the key baskets in the 4th quarter, same thing in the Clippers game and remember his left hand is almost useless right now.

I noticed it in the very first preseason game this season, Ronnie really improved his ball handling over the summer and his quickness and that allows him to beat any defender off teh dribble, it is amazing to watch.

No one guy can contain Ron.
--------------------

Moses
02-12-2006, 10:56 AM
You can start here: http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6127

And then add in these:
-----------
Let me get to Artest. I see someone has started the "trade Artrest" thread already. Let me say over my dead body. I hope he never plays a game in anything other than a Pacers uniform. I love him, and I'll win or lose with Ronnie. No one plays harder, no one is more competitive. IMO he played a great game tonight, he defended Rip as well as anyone could, and that is a tough matchup for him.

--------------
Forget about Artest's defense, forget about his toughness, forget about his stamina, forget about his effort, hustle, energy, forget about all those things.

Ron Artest is the Pacers best go to guy. J.O IMO is a very close second behind Ronnie. Late in a close game the pacers have more success going to Artest, he either scores, gets fouled, or creates a good shot for a teammate.

In the Jazz game he had one of tghe best defenders in the whole NBA guarding him, and Ronnie scored most of the key baskets in the 4th quarter, same thing in the Clippers game and remember his left hand is almost useless right now.

I noticed it in the very first preseason game this season, Ronnie really improved his ball handling over the summer and his quickness and that allows him to beat any defender off teh dribble, it is amazing to watch.

No one guy can contain Ron.
--------------------

This isn't necessary Rat. Come on!!

Edit: Didn't see he wanted you to do so. Funny how everybodys opinion of players can change so quickly.

Bball
02-12-2006, 12:34 PM
Uncle Buck voted for Tinsley before he voted against him...

-Bball

MagicRat
02-12-2006, 01:23 PM
Uncle Buck voted for Tinsley before he voted against him...

-Bball

I think technically he voted for him, then against him, then for him, then against him..........;)

Pacesetter
02-12-2006, 01:39 PM
I think technically he voted for him, then against him, then for him, then against him..........;)

UB, it's best to know when to lean on the shovel ... :goodnight

fifo
02-12-2006, 01:41 PM
I hate that "plus-minus" stat.

I think that may be the most useless stat in modern day basketball......

I think that this tool can provide good insights for trends over time.
A p.g. 'runs the show' and the team's performance when he is on the court is an interesting stat.
Personal stats is only part of the whole story, especially for p.g. won't you agree?

Kegboy
02-12-2006, 01:47 PM
I think that this tool can provide good insights for trends over time.
A p.g. 'runs the show' and the team's performance when he is on the court is an interesting stat.
Personal stats is only part of the whole story, especially for p.g. won't you agree?

With a stable roster and substitution pattern, yes. So, in the past 8 seasons, the +/- from '99/00 and '03/04 would be informative. The rest are worthless.

fifo
02-12-2006, 02:02 PM
With a stable roster and substitution pattern, yes. So, in the past 8 seasons, the +/- from '99/00 and '03/04 would be informative. The rest are worthless.

I think somewhat the opposite. The more 'combinations' tested will make the index stronger per person:

Think about a p.g. starting alongside great players for a long time - he has more chances getting a good +- than a p.g. playing with a lousy second unit.

The more combinations - more you can rely on the index.

fifo
02-12-2006, 02:07 PM
I think exactly the opposite.

Players have to get used to each other, there styles of play, etc. Its impossible to do that when your entire tema is either injured or hurt.....

That's why I say it's good for trends over time. You can not dismiss a whole season because some players got injured. A team has a system...

fifo
02-12-2006, 02:14 PM
Youíre making my point for me.

A team has its system, and every player fits into that system differently. It takes time to get used to players tendencies, and you can never do that if the line up is constantly changing

But it's good to have others make your points :)

What I meant is when a team has a good system, and the players fit in it, then changes in the line-up are not so critical. (up to a certain point of course). Indiana is a deep team and should be able to win games (as it does) even with 3 original startes out.

fifo
02-12-2006, 02:24 PM
Oh man, the deep team argument.

I am about to go watch the Pink Panther, but Ill let other take over the "deep team" argument for me.

P.S. When did we ever have 3 starters out. I remember having 4 and 5, but never just 3. That would have been a miracle :-p

Sure. Enjoy the :wells: (imagine this was pink and pantherlike).

3 Starters - I meant Tins, Ron-Ron, J.O.

Jermaniac
02-12-2006, 03:03 PM
Nice game by our starting PG today. So good. What do you guys call it when Tinsley wants to go at the other PG? Street Ball? What is it called when this slow as scrub who cant take anyone off the dribble does it? He isnt passing the ball to anyone trying to go at Parker. What a starting PG. Taking us to the Championship baby.

Hurry back Jamaal.

Bball
02-12-2006, 03:48 PM
Nice game by our starting PG today. So good. What do you guys call it when Tinsley wants to go at the other PG? Street Ball? What is it called when this slow as scrub who cant take anyone off the dribble does it? He isnt passing the ball to anyone trying to go at Parker. What a starting PG. Taking us to the Championship baby.

Hurry back Jamaal.

AJ's not having a bad game. Are you actually watching the game?

-Bball

Jermaniac
02-12-2006, 04:03 PM
Yes he is, look at what we are doing with out his weak *** playing.

tadscout
02-12-2006, 04:53 PM
AJ's not having a bad game. Are you actually watching the game?

-Bball

OK, if he's isn't playing bad then the rest of the players around him were when he was on the court... the offense is so much more stagnet and much less movement w/ AJ in there as our PG...

On the other hand you notice the times we made our offensive runs w/ Sarunas out there and the much better movement and tempo of our team...

hoopsforlife
02-12-2006, 04:59 PM
We lost him again. :(

Man he's elusive...

SoupIsGood
02-12-2006, 05:00 PM
Can AJ keep this up though? I hope so.

So much for that one!

317Kim
02-12-2006, 05:09 PM
I wanted to laugh but couldnt. Wait 8-10 more games he'll have a 20 pt 7 ast game.

Bball
02-12-2006, 05:11 PM
OK, if he's isn't playing bad then the rest of the players around him were when he was on the court... the offense is so much more stagnet and much less movement w/ AJ in there as our PG...

On the other hand you notice the times we made our offensive runs w/ Sarunas out there and the much better movement and tempo of our team...

My comment was in response to Jermaniac way before the end of the game. I still feel AJ played 'OK' BUT was misused a bit in context of the whole game.

I posted this in another thread in context to the whole game:

I've thought Carlisle has played Sarunas a little 'short' in the last few games. Today it bit us. Sarunas has been in a bit of a slump lately so Carlisle got away with putting him on a short leash but today he was having a good game and deserved to stay in during the 4th qtr IMHO. To get the maximum benefit from a player like Sarunas, Carlisle is going to have to live with some things.

I thought Harrison could've gotten more minutes as well.

I don't think AJ was playing bad but today he was nothing special either. I suppose Carlisle would argue he had to pull Sarunas for defensive reasons during the last minutes of the game. That type of use of Sarunas, and when JO returns and going back to the JO ISOball game, will be why this is Carlisle's last season :eek:

I don't think he and Bird are on the same page. It's just a feeling I am getting from their comments. I'm not all that confident in my above prediction... But if we see us going back to JO ISOball upon his return then I'll feel fairly confident in that prediction (and I feel fairly confident we'll be going that direction because that is Rick's 'thing').

That all said... I don't have too many complaints about today. It was a close, competitive game. The defending champs had the moxie down the stretch to pull it out. Once again we played some good basketball without JO in the lineup.

No longer than this team has been together it isn't an embarassment to lose to the defending champs in the closing seconds. It was a shame though... because we had this game. I can't say we were outcoached... we were overcoached is more like it. Pop didn't do anything special to win... he let us lose it.

-Bball

indytoad
02-12-2006, 05:13 PM
I think the Pacers trapped in an abusive relationship. AJ treats them bad all the time, but every now and then he does something great and they fall madly in love with him and forgive him, only to see him revert back to his old ways once more.

IndyToad
Kicks up your metabolism

SoupIsGood
02-12-2006, 05:14 PM
I think the Pacers trapped in an abusive relationship. AJ treats them bad all the time, but every now and then he does something great and they fall madly in love with him and forgive him, only to see him revert back to his old ways once more.

IndyToad
Kicks up your metabolism

You could also say the same for Jax

indytoad
02-12-2006, 05:15 PM
You could also say the same for Jax

Probably even more true in that situation. He even has the rugged good looks.

IndyToad
Fending off killer whales

Ragnar
02-12-2006, 06:01 PM
Today was a great example of AJ's inferiority at the point. AJ could not get any of our other players a shot in the half court once San Antonio ratcheted up their D in the last few minutes of the game.

Since some of the people in here seem to have a very very short term memory we led the league in crunch time scoring when Jamaal was playing.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-12-2006, 06:09 PM
AJ didnt have a great game today, but it deffinitely wasnt one of his worse.

Id say a good portion of his troubles today were the lineups he was in, particularly the first unit. Some of you have said that having Scot and Foster in there at the same time is a good lineup. I think it hurt us bad today. Neither one of them is much use on offense, except for putbacks. So when AJ gets stuck in there with those two guys up front, he only really has two other options to pass it to, one of those usually being Jackson. I think it would be hard for a lot of pgs to do much with that lineup.

EDIT: And I think you have to give some credit to the Spur's D for screwing up our ball movement, they played excellent defense throughout the whole game.

Fireball Kid
02-12-2006, 06:40 PM
AJ didnt have a great game today, but it deffinitely wasnt one of his worse.

Id say a good portion of his troubles today were the lineups he was in, particularly the first unit. Some of you have said that having Scot and Foster in there at the same time is a good lineup. I think it hurt us bad today. Neither one of them is much use on offense, except for putbacks. So when AJ gets stuck in there with those two guys up front, he only really has two other options to pass it to, one of those usually being Jackson. I think it would be hard for a lot of pgs to do much with that lineup.

EDIT: And I think you have to give some credit to the Spur's D for screwing up our ball movement, they played excellent defense throughout the whole game.

Scott and Foster are in there at the same time for defense and rebounding. Its not like we have alot of inside options seeing as JO is probably our only inside option. Harrison may be the next but he isn't consistent enough. But I dont think thats why we lost the game. Its when Rick went with his "defense first" garbage and took Peja, Fred and Saras out of the game. They should of never left during that stretch.

And oh wait........whose idea was it for Jackson to take a highly contested shot ,which everyone knew wasnt going in, after the timeout when you can put the right players in at the right time?!?

This is Rick's fault, Rick caused us the game, Sarunas should be the starting point guard, and THATS IT!

rexnom
02-12-2006, 07:47 PM
Today was a great example of AJ's inferiority at the point. AJ could not get any of our other players a shot in the half court once San Antonio ratcheted up their D in the last few minutes of the game.

Since some of the people in here seem to have a very very short term memory we led the league in crunch time scoring when Jamaal was playing.
YES!

When was the last time that happened. 1999?..................

2005 NBA playoffs...he saved the Boston series, helped us fight Detroit hard...
2004-2005 NBA regular season...For a 15-game stretch when J.O., Jack, and Ron were suspended he upped his game to all-star level while keeping our season afloat while we had players like Tremaine Fowlkes, Britton Johnson, and Marcus Haislip...
2004 NBA playoffs...led us past Boston, Miami, and to a dogfight with Detroit.
2003-2004 NBA regular season...Led us to the best record in the league after accepting an Eddie Gill-like role and being more than professional about it. Proved that he could be a half-court PG as well as a fast-break PG.

I could go on but that's the Rick Carlisle/Larry Bird years...I'm trying to forget Isiah Thomas. Btw, he pretty much played injured through most of the above. His real serious injury was the one suffered in the 2004 playoffs and I contend that that's still a reason we lost to Detroit. Do we have to go through all the misdiagnoses again?

Do people forget these things about Tinsley?

rexnom
02-12-2006, 08:17 PM
sar·casm Audio pronunciation of "sarcasm" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (särkzm)
n.

1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1.



And if by "people" you mean VA, I havent forgotten any of it. Just like I havent forgotten how unreliable Mel-Mel has been over his career.....

Obviously, I got that you didn't literally mean 1999, when Tinsley was still at college but I just want to make the point that Tinsley is very good and it's not like there are better pgs out there available. How much better than AJ do you think Earl Watson is for example? I think Tinsley can stay healthy and if he does I think this can be a good team. That being said, I don't 100% trust his health...like I don't trust J.O.'s health. I don't think we should trade for another PF though because our starter is injured often. Also, I am for letting Jamaal ease his way back. He should earn that starter's spot. And he will, you'll see.

Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean you personally when I said people...I just get tired of all the anti-Tinsley sentiment sometime and I wanted to back him up a little...

rexnom
02-12-2006, 08:29 PM
No hard feelings ;)

As for Mel-Mel, I was once a supporter of his, but he has been to injured for my liking.

I agree with your logic, but I was tempted to start a trade JO thread last year, but Jay beat me to it with his hread where he said JO and Ron cant co-exist.

I am not to the point of trading Mel-Mel, but with one more injury I would have no problem with him being gone. Truth be told, I wouldnt lose that much sleep if he was gone tommorrow, assuming we got a "reliable" person in return

I think we do agree here. I love his game too (obviously) and that's why I am giving him chance after chance. It's quite possible for him however to come in, fit in brilliantly with the new offense and break down the week before the playoffs. Then the team would be virtually ruined. That's my biggest fear. In my eyes though, he has earned the benefit of the doubt...for now...