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Peck
02-09-2006, 03:36 AM
For the past three or four years we have heard over & over again how offensive rebounding was the "most over rated" stat in all of basketball. I've heard that low post isolation offense is the best way to win games & that really guards & even small forwards should just get back on defense to stop any breaks & not help with the boards.

I've heard that fronting the post on defense is the way to go & that really the strength of the team should come from our wing player & that we really wanted speed in our big men. I've heard that assist were not an accurate measure of offensive success & I've heard player spacing was more important that player movement.

I've heard this for so long & so often that I almost started to beleive this.

Almost.

The Diamond one & myself were debating after the game about the current style of play & what team it most copy's.

When I started speaking of free flowing offense he thought I was trying to describe the current Phoenix Suns & he suggested that is what I wanted.

After reflecting on this I have come to this conclusion, that is not what I want at all & that is not what we have.

What we have is a lesser version of the 99 Pacers. With Pollard & Foster you have the Davis's. Peja is similar to Reggie, Jax is Jalen Rose. A.J. will never be Mark Jackson but he is manning the point at present.

In other words what Carlisle has done is reached into his bag of tricks & pulled out the old play sets from the 97-99 team.

What we have right now is a combonation of strength, speed & ball movement.

No one on our team stays in any one position for more than 4-5 seconds at a time on the offensive end & our ability to drive & kick to the wings is not because they are just hanging out at the line but because they are moveing from side to side & working position.

That is just one of the reasons things are working now more than they were two weeks ago or for that matter two months ago.

I'm not saying we are title contenders but I am saying we are going in the right direction.

Let's examine some of the reasons why things are going better at the moment, shall we?

1. Chemistry. Less is more, their backs are against the wall, they ride together, etc., etc. Whatever cliche' you want to use here feel free, but it doesn't change the basic fact of this. These guys are enjoying playing together. Scot Pollard said in the post game interview that it was nice to have player playing together instead of against one another. I don't know what he meant by that for sure, but I think I have an idea. We have no star, we have no one out there above any of the others. They are all held to the same standard & IMO it has given them an identity. The bench players are getting theirs, the starters are getting theirs. Nobody resents anybody at the moment. Of course winning helps that a lot as well, let's see how they do when they lose a couple (which they will) but my guess is that this particular unit will not put it's head down & point fingers. They will group together & work harder.

2. The re-emergence of true centers. No offense to some of our power forwards who have been manning the spot for the past three years, but the truth is simple. Our resurgence has coincided with the fact that for over 90% of the last three games our center spot has been manned by (Gasp!!!) Centers. Scot Pollard has been a phenom. & Harrison has been delivering from the bench. All you have to do is look at these two men & you will see that they are big, thick, strong & talented. Unless foul trouble or injury occurs I never want to see another powerforward play center again.

3. We have not matched down to teams. As above we have done away with trying to play small ball for the most part. We almost always have a true center on the floor & so far it has worked. Make them pay by smashing it down low or make them pay for not having the size to match up down low. Either way, we win.

4. Power at our power forward spot. In all of this I have become a fan of Jeff Foster again. The reason? He's not being forced to be the physical player on the floor anymore. However as the second physical player on the floor he is an @ss kicker. He is bigger & stronger than a lot of powerforwards & he's as quick as any of them. Having him & pollard or Harrison in there together is usually an advantage for us. Having him play the center spot is a disadvantage for us in most cases.

5. Our offense has changed. This could be listed much higher but I'll keep it here for now. It's easy to guard one player, it's harder to guard two players it's d@mn near impossible to guard five players on the floor. When all five players on the floor are a threat it changes the entire defenseive scheme of the other team. Yes, in our current offense Jeff Foster is somewhat an offensive threat. Because of our new pick & roll that we are running Jeff is getting some wide open drives to the basket. He didn't take advantage of them in this game but he has been over the other two games. We are running screens at the elbow, we have player movement from baseline to baseline & most important we have lots of cuts going to the basket. We are shooting a lot of three's but with the way our new offense is we are in position to get offensive rebounds if our guys miss.

6. Our bench provides the other team no rest. In fact often times our bench comes in & kicks the crap out of the other team. I know that some people like a shorter bench & shorter rotation. I don't agree with that. Now if we had superstars, no we don't have any of them & we never have, then I could see playing them for as long as you could. But in our case I would like to still keep a deep rotation even when everyone is healthy. Harrison coming off of the bench is almost cruel to the other team at this point in time, as long as he can keep playing like this, then add into that Granger & you almost feel sorry for the other team. Well almost anyway. I like a deep bench as long as everybody is on the same page & everybody is happy in their roles which as of now, they are.

7. Rebounding rebounding rebounding!!!!!! I have hated the way our team rebounds for so long that I don't even remember when the last time I liked. That is until now. Every single player that played rebounded the ball. Eddie Gill didn't score a point but he got a board. Out of the players who got real min. on the floor Jax had the least with 3. Compared to Portland who had one player (Randolp) with 9 all on the offensive end but their starting guards combined for 3. I will always quote Pat Riley till the day I die. "No rebounds, no rings". I don't know what has made me more happy our new offense or our new dedication to rebounding. Oh who am I kidding, I love rebounding.

8. True defense. We no longer employ gimick defense (ie. fronting the post) because we don't have to. Our centers now can body up on almost any center in the NBA & in Harrisons case as long as he doesn't foul I will say it now. He can body up to any player in the NBA including Shaq. No, I'm not saying he will stop Shaq but I am saying that Shaq can't just bump him out of the way with his shoulder. Foster is good at guarding the quicker big men in the NBA & Peja is a hell of a lot better than I thought he would be. To be honest he played Randolph straight up several times in the second half & he stopped him cold. Granger is already one of our better defenders on both the perimater & down in the paint. Our guard defense has been steady, not spectacular but very steady.

9. Coaching. Actually Coaching is 1A. but I'm not talking about overall coaching in this particular part. I'm talking about Rick's new found patience. If a player makes a dumb mistake he is no longer yanked from the game & set on the bench for a long time. He is allowed to play through it & if he continues to make dumb plays or if he gets hot under the collar Rick then pulls him, let's him cool off & then puts him back in the game. This allows the players to not play scared. They are not looking over at the bench every time the miss a defensive assignment. I think this has helped greatly with overall team chemistry. We no longer have players out there who are treated differantly than others.

10. Freedom. There is a certain liberation when you no longer have any expectations. We come in as the underdog & maybe that is the way our fans & even our players like it. We didn't handle being the favorite to win it all very well but we seem to thrive as the team that everybody over looks. The Diamond one pointed this out to me before the L.A. game so I wanted to make sure he got credit for this.

Now let's deal with a couple of other things & yes we will address the big pink elephant in the room in a min.

Can I get everybody to climb off of Anthony Johnson's @ss? This guy is more pro than we deserve. This guy has gone from second p.g. to starter to DNP-CD to starter to second back to DNP-CD & then back to starter & each time he has come in & done his job. Did he make a fuss about any of this? Yes, of course he did. But he never quit & he never walked away what the team has asked of him.

I am saying it now, A.J. should just start for the rest of the year. That's right I said it. Jamaal Tinsley should not just be able to come back & get his p.g. spot without earning it from the bench for a few games. If he comes back & comes off of the bench & proves he can work in this system then by all means, but under no circumstance should he just get his job back the first day he is back.

Then we have to address what to do between Saras & A.J.? Well, sorry but my money is on the guy who is there right now. Saras can get some time but the first p.g. off of the bench, IMO, should be A.J. if it's not J.T.

I know that won't be popular with some of his fans but right now A.J. is giving you everything you would ever want from a backup p.g. & in our case it's even working as the starting p.g.

Well, we might as well go ahead & start the p!ssing contest about Jermaine O'neal right now.

Here is my fear. Take every single one of the 10 reasons I listed above & throw them out the window if J.O. comes back & we allow him to be the focus of our team again.

One of the reasons I didn't post after the Detroit game? What Jon Theodore said I was going to say, well not the racist part or anything, but what he was saying about J.O. I was going to fire the same thing out.

I came home after the game & watched the game on Tivo before I even got online I made the Diamond one & even my wife look at a freeze frame of the exact same shot on the bench that Theodore saw. Remember this was before I read what any of you were saying. I said right there & then to my family that this was not the face of a happy team mate. There was Saras all smiles, there was Pollard & Harrison laughing & haveing a good time there was even shot of Eddie Gill smiling. But there all alone stood a sour looking Jermaine O'Neal. Now I would be willing to buy that he was trying not to get his team to not celebrate a regular season win, hell in fact I would admire him if that were the case. But this is the same guy who looks as though he has brain worms exploding from his head every time he dunks the ball on someone.

Your team just won a hard fought game vs. the best team in the NBA he should have been over there with a high five & a butt slap for every player that came out of the game, he should have been waving a towel & leading all of us in the fieldhouse in cheering for the players. I've seen Reggie do that many of time btw.

But no, that's not what we got.

Now is it ever fair to look at a bench shot & believe that we know what the player is thinking? No, of course not. But demeanor & body language sure tells you something of what a person is thinking.

But that is just the mental side of this topic & I hope we don't get drug down in the mud arguing over it.

What I want to talk about is whether Jermaine O'Neal the player can fit into this style of play?

The answer? Probably not.

No, not because he is not talented enough to do so. We all know he can. But because he is not skilled enough at certain things to do it as well as the other big men.

Why are we rebouning as well as we are? Yes, the change on offense has helped with the "o" boards but the fact is that Pollard & Harrison are space eaters & rebound by position. Foster still is using his speed but he does know enough to try & block out.

Jermaine O'Neal is an athletic rebounder, not a skilled one. In other words J.O. jumps higher to get the boards than others do & often times he does not block out to do this. So if he can't get the board the other team often time does. Pollard & Harrison block out so well that even if they don't secure the boards they have cleared a path so our guards or other forwards do.

Could J.O. do this? Yes, but it would take a change in mentality to do it.

J.O. is a decent passer, actually I think he is underrated in this aspect of his game. But J.O. would also have to become more of a mover. He would no longer be able to plant himself in the post for 15 sec. & just sit there till the team gets him the ball.

Now this does not mean he could not do post up offense. If you will notice we still have some post up plays, but we no longer run 80% of our plays as post ups anymore.

He still could do this, he even would have more of the 15' shots he loves so much. But he would have to be willing to do this. He would have to be willing to go down on the offensive end & not even touch the ball on occasion.

Would he be willing to do that?

The fact is this, none of us know. He always says the proper thing in the paper or on radio. But again, body language & demeanor go a long way in explaining ones thoughts. Let's just say I am skeptical that this is all Rick Carlisle.

Now call me Fox Mulder because I do want to beleive that he would be willing to do it, but I am also very very skeptical that he would.

Are we sure it was all the other player who was only worried about their touches?

Jackson also had a comment on the post game show that was telling as well. He said that players were getting more touches & that made everybody play harder.

Now he could have just been talking about himself, but it seemed to me like he was speaking for more than one guy.

Trust me I certainly understand that our former problem child was a problem here. But I will not totally lay the blame at his feet as being the only player worried about getting his. Yes, Jax does the same thing but let's just say I don't think he "rides alone" in that case.

Now is the time for Bird, Walsh, whoever, to actually look at this team & see if this really is the style we should be playing with. If it is then I'm sorry to say but we really should look to move J.O. for a great guard & a solid big man who can help with depth.

Now if they believe that this style is not the way to go then by all means bring J.O. back & then truely surround him with the players who will make his style of play work.

As to Jamaal? Sorry, injury prone or not he just is not available enough for me to care anymore. I know he is almost impossible to move right now but over the summer it is time to do something else & no Saras is not the answer.

Now before everybody has a seizure with me complaining about things after a three game win streak understand this. I know we are on a hot streak right now & as soon as teams get us scouted this may change again, who knows.

But right now I am looking at the sytem & this is the style of play I like to watch better & here is the truth. This style of play wins better as well. Because while the other system has it's advantages it also causes disharmony amongst the team & thus is a self defeating style of play.

This style got us to three E.C. finals & one NBA finals apperance & in reality this is also very similar to the style that Brown played here as well so it was 5 E.C. finals if you go back that far.

Feel free to flame away at me, but before you do know this.

I am giving you some free happy dancing fruit.

:dance: :carrot: :pineapple :mango: :cucumber: :bdance: :lazy:

And if that isn't enough to make you happy then I will throw in this picture for free, how can you stay mad at me & look at this in the face?

:oneill:

Anthem
02-09-2006, 03:51 AM
You're the man, Peck.

I didn't give the post the justice it deserves because it's late and I'm exhausted. I'll leave it for tomorrow.

The one thing I will say: You say you're not a fan of a short bench. I say: look at the minutes tonight. It was a 30-point blowout, and only 9 players played tonight (besides one meaningless minute by Eddie Gill). That's exactly what I want. When Jay and I say "short bench" what we mean is enough of the "our third string can beat your second string" mentality. So what? Don't invest time and money in players that aren't going to see the court.

Peck
02-09-2006, 04:03 AM
You're the man, Peck.

I didn't give the post the justice it deserves because it's late and I'm exhausted. I'll leave it for tomorrow.

The one thing I will say: You say you're not a fan of a short bench. I say: look at the minutes tonight. It was a 30-point blowout, and only 9 players played tonight (besides one meaningless minute by Eddie Gill). That's exactly what I want. When Jay and I say "short bench" what we mean is enough of the "our third string can beat your second string" mentality. So what? Don't invest time and money in players that aren't going to see the court.


When you get a chance tommorrow I will want you to explain that a little better to me. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying there.

BTW, 9 players was every player available to play.

I think I understand what you are saying & I even think I agree but I want to be sure.

Fireball Kid
02-09-2006, 04:03 AM
Well Peck, after reading from your thoughts, I must say that I pretty much agree with everything except for AJ starting over Saras. I still think that Saras should start, AJ should be the back up and nothing is going to make me change that. Other than that, nice read.

Will Galen
02-09-2006, 04:30 AM
But right now I am looking at the sytem & this is the style of play I like to watch better & here is the truth. This style of play wins better as well. Because while the other system has it's advantages it also causes disharmony amongst the team & thus is a self defeating style of play.


Most all of your Odd thoughts posts are good Peck, but I especially like this one. You see more than what I do, but you express yourself better when we both see the same thing. The above for instant is what I've been trying to say.

You get an A+. (GRIN)

NorCal_Pacerfan
02-09-2006, 04:42 AM
Solid, long post as usual. I enjoyed the read. I wish there was a long and short version for days when I'm short on time.

Question for you. No mention of Austin. Where does Austin fit in to this system, and how and who will his return affect?

I share your concerns regarding JO. I'm just hoping that JO can see the light, and play more like he did a few years ago - maybe get out and run a little. How will JO play when Pollard or Harrison is the center? We haven't even seen JO play a single minute with Peja. I can't write him off. I think we can find a balance, but it remains to be seen. I am a little concerned about JO's lack of enthusiasm during the Piston game. Was he the same way against Portland?

Lithfan
02-09-2006, 05:05 AM
Well Peck, after reading from your thoughts, I must say that I pretty much agree with everything except for AJ starting over Saras. I still think that Saras should start, AJ should be the back up and nothing is going to make me change that. Other than that, nice read.
Me, of course, agree with Fireball :)
Peck, why exactly you decided that Saras is not the awnser?
His production is great in limited minutes he gets. And he is a rookie.
AJ is getting more minutes right now because he is more experienced, thats all. Thats what coaching staff repeated on numerous occasions. In other words Rick doesn't want to start rookie.
When experienced starting PG as JT was available, Saras was the main back-up and he was getting the same PT he has now, while AJ played less.
So what exactly convinced you that Saras is not the awnser?

Bball
02-09-2006, 05:33 AM
Excellent review.

Personally, I see no reason for Tinsley to suit up as a Pacer ever again. Maybe that is just me? Actually, he can suit up- and be the 3rd string disaster PG. He shouldn't move AJ out of the lineup nor should he move Sarunas out of the lineup. And if Tinsley should get healthy (hahahahahaha) and AJ get injured, Tinsley should only keep AJ's spot warm for him. IOW, it is time to move on from Tinsley. He cannot be counted upon due to injuries to do anything but throw the rotations off kilter and IMHO he has attitude problems which should glue him to the bench anyway.

That sounds awfully harsh when I put it in print. Good... I guess that makes it clear ;)
Just keep him on the bench healing and hope injuries don't force us to use him so he can be bubblewrapped for summer and a trade.

Not even Tinsley can bring me down after watching this team rebound. What a joy to see. Rebounds!!!!! Rebounds!!!!! Rebounding Pacers!!!!

And then a balanced, unselfish offense too. :cloud9:

-Bball

NorCal_Pacerfan
02-09-2006, 06:14 AM
Bball - I'm with you 100% regarding Tins, but I've felt that way for a long time now.

I will say this, it's amazing what three solid wins can do. Let's not forget we just came off a six game skid.

Lithfan
02-09-2006, 06:50 AM
Excellent review.

Personally, I see no reason for Tinsley to suit up as a Pacer ever again. Maybe that is just me? Actually, he can suit up- and be the 3rd string disaster PG. He shouldn't move AJ out of the lineup nor should he move Sarunas out of the lineup. And if Tinsley should get healthy (hahahahahaha) and AJ get injured, Tinsley should only keep AJ's spot warm for him. IOW, it is time to move on from Tinsley. He cannot be counted upon due to injuries to do anything but throw the rotations off kilter and IMHO he has attitude problems which should glue him to the bench anyway.

That sounds awfully harsh when I put it in print. Good... I guess that makes it clear ;)
Just keep him on the bench healing and hope injuries don't force us to use him so he can be bubblewrapped for summer and a trade.

Not even Tinsley can bring me down after watching this team rebound. What a joy to see. Rebounds!!!!! Rebounds!!!!! Rebounding Pacers!!!!

And then a balanced, unselfish offense too. :cloud9:

-Bball

Yeah, you are right.

Isn't that what usually happens when team loses its stars?

They start playing with sacrifice, unselfish offence, rebounding. The problem is that those type of things are brought by a momentum and it doesn't last. Lets see first how Pacers with current healthy roster play 10 games.:confused:

able
02-09-2006, 07:21 AM
OK one last attempt to get reason in to some of you, others I have given up hope for, but it becomes dreary and old quick to read the continuous JO and Tins bashing and now my favorite read in the morning after got contaminated with it as well, so as I said, I should do a last ditch effort before I clasp my hands together, look at the sky and give up and go do something more worth while.

Let's face some hard facts before we draw upon conclusions we seem to reach at the moment.

What were/are the characteristics of the "iso-offense" we play(ed)?

PG bringing up the ball, considering we want a low tempo to control most flow the pg pounds the ball, makes some threatening moves and gets the ball to the post player who is (hopefully) drawing a double team, then passing out to waiting player on the perimeter, or when the double does not come or to late OR when no perimeter player is "easily" reachable, goes for the basket.

This does not exactly put he post player in the position to box out, so any rebounds he gets are to come from athleticism instead of other means.
It also leaves at most 1 player under the basket, so getting position for rebounds in itself becomes hard, unless they are the "long" type rebounds, because there are enough players on the perimeter.
That is of course if they haven't already ran back to go on defense.

Now is there any action in there that was not pre-destined, and written in stone on the blackboard in the locker, then please let me know.

Also please come with some form of proof that this is the choice of play by the people you are indicting with this, JO and Tins.

I for one do not believe it for ONE second to be their choice offense, nor defense.

Did Rick play different sets when in Detroit? Or are we talking about the same Rick Carlisle here that told Ben Wallace not to bother trying to score; just get rebounds?

Can anyone tell me we were playing such a different system then Detroit when Rick was there?
Did we not have Jeff aka Ben, JO aka Rasheed, Ron aka Prince, Jax aka Rip and Tins aka Billups?

Was Billups ever asked to score, except in dire situations like Tins now? no.

So the same dog, the same tricks.
Weren't we all in Flip's jockstrap earlier in the season when Detroit wen on a rampage by him letting the players play, run and score?
Aren't we talking about the same players 2 years ago known for their grindout ball, the 60 point games with a win?

So now I have established the MO for the coach(ing staff, because really O'Neill is no different) we can move on to the players.

What is JO's natural position? right PF, as such he is known for speed and power, good shot, strong moves to and around the rim, one of the most versatile big man in the league.
Never wondered why coaches and other players call him all that?

Now unless I can't read, I am sure I read several times that JO does NOT like playing at C.
But let's face it, where has he played the past 2.5 years?
Do we really want to maintain after what we are seeing at current that Jeff played C?

Well for those that do, please, you are delusional.

HOWEVER, while partly playing C, he also had the task of playing PF, be the main scoring threat and have the offense grind through him.

Jeff was there for the rebounding, rebounding and rebounding, nothing else.
Just like Rick wanted to and used as Ben Wallace.

As I wrote in an earlier post in a thread about the "big question" (another one about JO) JO did not come up with the idea of bulking up, he did so because it was asked or he was told, so he could have more resilience in banging down low.
Now is that not one of the last things we want him to do?
Isn't it clear NOW that Polly and David are much more suited for that?

Now I have written ad nauseum about Tins' injuries, like most here, be it from a different angle, but again, how did he get inured this year?

Because every game he started the 1st 3 plays of the game were him driving to the rim.
Why?
Tins' is not the player known to break any play, the last to go his own chance, more then enough handles to do a lot of other things, yet game after game, and please do go over the recordings if you don't believe me, he drove to the hoop the first 3 plays.

That made the defense pay a different kind of attention, collapsing quicker and leaving room for the wing players.

He got hurt that way, someone grabbed his arm, he tore a biceps and done.
However we were not playing to well, so he was rushed back, with as a result his arm overworked to get well again (regain strength) and thus as a result his elbow is injured (can anyone say tennis elbow?)
Yeah right, always injured Mel, Who last year played with a foot injury the med staff was unable to correctly diagnose and which was most likely similar to Maggette's injury, but just diagnosed after he tried playing on it, for the good of the team, since most other players were out.

Is there anyone out there that thinks he is not the best PG we have? Thought so.

Now let's face it straight up, instead of "wondering aloud";

JO @ PF! would fit just fine in this setup of the team, or is there anyone out there that thinks that Jeff is better suited then JO to play PF?

Fast moves, deep passes and fast break offense, anyone willing to bet Tins is not at his best at that? With his vision of the floor, ability to zip passes? ability to finish at the rim, penetrate and kick out ?
Is there anyone who does not think that JO and Tins can run a great pick&roll?

Of course we will have a "problem" in who to play when they come back, some depth will either go to deep, or someone will lose some minutes.
But would it really hurt to see less of Jeff? IF he's replaced by JO?
And YES I DO think that Tins should come back of the bench, just as much as I am sure that wont last to long before he establishes being the best again.
Do we really think AJ would have a problem playing with the second unit? To me (and I thought I would never say this) he has more then established that if not starting he should get the majority of the backup minutes. Sorry but for now Saras moves down the order.

Now get Polly to start at C, or even David, I mean; wouldn't you love to see JO at PF and a real C alongside? Peja Granger and Tins to fill out the 5? Or sub Granger for Jax, either way it will be a great starting 5.
And for the Bench? (yes with a capital B) Do you want to bring in your bench against them? Whether it is David or Polly at C, Granger, Fred, AJ and if you want to rest all starters, bring in Jeff as well.

JO nor Tinsley is the problem in this team, the coach's MO is clear evidence, so easily overlooked.
So we start to say that maybe JO wants his touches, his points, whatever, but can we give an example where JO has not done all that was asked of him, no matter what, without pouting, complaining, sulking or under protest? No we can't JO has been an exemplary soldier just like Tins.
The least we can do is give them the benefit of the doubt, because when they return and we return to the "iso-ball" then we can rightly once again say that it is Rick, because JO and Tins are both on record for saying they do not really like the "iso-ball" offense.

D-BONE
02-09-2006, 07:38 AM
Yes, JO can be successful in this approach IMO depending on two things:

1) Coaches MUST stick with this offensive scheme
2) He must be willing to accept a reduced (read: team/balanced) role and get opportunities within the flow of offensive movement

If 1 occurs and JO can't make the commitment, then gotta think about moving him. The best thing is maintaining the team (not individual) dynamic that seems to have been established.

Tinsley? I say he gets back and has to work from the bottom in the PG rotation. He could also thrive in the new style, but I think AJ and Sarunas have earned their nitches. Sarunas is more valuable playing with the second unit IMO. As several have noted, our 2nd string as currently constituted is very potent and problematic for our foes and a key cog is Saras at the point. Leave AJ as the starter. Last night, for instance, they either had similar minutes or maybe Saras even ended up with more. As long as PT is there Saras can make an impact. Plus his D probably is less exploitable by opponent's #2 PG.

Unclebuck
02-09-2006, 09:32 AM
For the past three or four years we have heard over & over again how offensive rebounding was the "most over rated" stat in all of basketball. I've heard that low post isolation offense is the best way to win games & that really guards & even small forwards should just get back on defense to stop any breaks & not help with the boards.

I've heard that fronting the post on defense is the way to go & that really the strength of the team should come from our wing player & that we really wanted speed in our big men. I've heard that assist were not an accurate measure of offensive success & I've heard player spacing was more important that player movement.

I've heard this for so long & so often that I almost started to beleive this.




I've been discredited, I'm a fraud.


I simply don't have time right now to respond. maybe tonight

Doug in CO
02-09-2006, 09:39 AM
Have to keep this short as I need to run to a meeting...

I don't even bother with reading the Star anymore - just go to Peck's rundown. The one thing I missed more than anything during the year or so after bailing on RATS and before I found this place.

My main complaint with JO's role on this team early in the year is that we had the inside without the outside - that he was asked to make game winning shots while he was being triple teamed. Now that we have Peja - hopefully long term - hopefully that rectifies the situation. Let's remember how reluctant Reggie was to shot near the end of his career so we really have not had that inside-outside for a long time.

ALSO - let's face facts - we made a long term commitment to JO by jetisoning Ron. Carlisle will be gone before JO is... maybe just due to the fact that you can't trade him... unless you could get Garnett or would be willing to take Francis. I would take the former, not the latter.

Strany
02-09-2006, 09:44 AM
Maybe I'm reading to much into this but Rick said this after the game.
"The less you can do in a set offense, the better, within a context. You can’t go wild. The way we’re structured now, we have to play more up tempo"

To me this say's as soon as JO is back we will go back to the grind it out throw it into JO and stand around O. I hope not this would be the worst thing you could do to the team and to JO. The offense for the most part should remain the same and JO needs to find his niche in it. The players also must not start just defering to JO because he is back.

As far as JO pouting, I would not read to much into it, I do think he is as puzzled by why we play so well when he is out as everyone else. He needs to adjust his game and Rick must not defer back to the Old offense at least as the staple. There is a time and place to pound, pound pound it, but not night in and out. Run it enough that you can go to it when needed but
build the bread and butter around what we are doing now.

able
02-09-2006, 09:50 AM
I went over the 4th quarter to see where JO was pouting, while so many metioned it when Polly and Jeff were doing a happy dance

1st: he's injured no reason to do a happy dance,
2nd: the first to high-five David coming of the court with 1.13 to go = JO
3rd: the first to walk on the court handing Polly a towel is our own towelboy JO

After high fiving some more players he walks on the court and talk a minute with Rasheed.

Serious facial expression? I sincerely hope so, be cause though the team is doing good, he is working with the big men, and he is not playing, he is keeping a close eye on David and talking to all the players Polly, Jeff, David, they all start talking to JO the minute they walk of the court.

After game interview; Jax: we will be a better team when the guys come back from injury.

Black Sox
02-09-2006, 09:55 AM
Saras is playing very good and has been all year. The majority of Harrisons points comes from Saras creating and dishing off to Harrison. Saras gets everyone involved and thats what you want out of your PG. AJ is playing very good right now and if he keeps it up then JT shouldn't just be thrown back into the starting spot. Although when healthy Tinsley is the best pg on this team. I can see him being traded in the summer.

Strany
02-09-2006, 10:01 AM
After game interview; Jax: we will be a better team when the guys come back from injury.

This is really my biggest concern on this team right now. What happens when
Cro, JO and Tins are back? Should we be a better team? Yes. But the problem is that some players will have to loose PT and become unhappy.
We really have too many players who need to be playing and it causes chemistry issues when a few of them are not getting the PT they deserve.

I really think one of our biggest issues for awhile is that we are to deep.
When everyone is healthy, I know that does not happen often, there are going to be players not seeing the court that should be.

tseramid
02-09-2006, 10:25 AM
In all of the bashing of JO and Tinsley, with the argument being that our success has come coincidentally when they are not in the lineup. Has anyone noticed that our success also coincides with Peja joining this team? He has shown me so much more than I expected of him and he is the reason why we can go up tempo. He can hit the outside shot, something noone else on the team had been a true threat from.

Bring JO back with Peja and we have an inside out game that we havn't seen since we had, well, JO and Reggie.

Also coincidentally, our success has come at nearly exactly the same time Austin Croshere went down. Was it his fault that we struggled in the losing streak leading up to the wins? Of course not.

If we are truly afraid that the team will revert back to an iso offense simply because of the presence of JO, then shipping out JO is not the answer...shipping out our coaching staff is. Big athletic PFs can thrive in up-tempo offenses and they can still iso when in half court sets.

owl
02-09-2006, 10:32 AM
D-Bone said.."1) Coaches MUST stick with this offensive scheme
2) He must be willing to accept a reduced (read: team/balanced) role and get opportunities within the flow of offensive movement

If 1 occurs and JO can't make the commitment, then gotta think about moving him. The best thing is maintaining the team (not individual) dynamic that seems to have been established."


Truth. I have been saying for the last 2 years that JO needs to take a
diminished offensive role. He should be a rebounder and shot blocker and
facilitator for the perimeter guys.

As far as point guards are concerned the Pacers have I believe what they
need in Saras and Johnson. Saras however should always be, at least for
now the back up guard, regardless if Tinsley or Johnson starts. Tinsley
dominates the ball and that is bad for the team. He gets his assists by
dribbling all over the court and making the pass where as Saras often makes the pass to set up the pass for the assist. In other words he runs the offense.


owl

Ragnar
02-09-2006, 10:38 AM
As much as it pains me to say this, I am now starting to think AJ is our second best pg. I would be fine with Tins coming off the bench for a game or even two. I know what will happen (remember when Ricky made him come off the bench behind AJ before? Tinsley so out played AJ that everyone in Indiana would have stoned Rick if he would not have started him the next game)

I am starting to think my 3 year long burning hatred for AJ's game has been misplaced. His best games have all come when we play more of an open offense. The funny thing to me is how many of you have started believing that AJ would be better at an open offense than Tinsely would.

Of course many of you who are saying that now, were saying that Tinsley could not run a half court offense and that he would only be useable with an open offense back when Rick first got here and benched him for pg phenom Kenny (the slug) Anderson.

Those of you asking if we should maybe trade J.O. because we like this style of play better need to look back to Isiah's last games coached. Yes we lost, yes we underachieved but it was not Jermaine who let us down. He had 26 got that TWENTY SIX rebounds. Its the coach not Jermaine. Its the coach not Jermaine. Its the coach not Jermaine.

Jermaine can rebound even better than any of our current players. Put him in his natural position play him along side David or Polly tell him to get all the rebounds he can and to think of them as points and he will lead the league in rebounds. Remember Isiah never ran the low post offense that Rick ran and J.O. got his points then too. Jermaine is quicker and more agile than most pf's in the league and at the same time stronger than most of them as well.

If nothing else you cant tell me he would not be an upgrade over Jeff. (I have a Foster Jersey and consider him one of my favorite Pacers so this is not a knock on Jeff.)

Indyfan
02-09-2006, 10:46 AM
Rick built the system he has used here around Ron and JO in the post, when all were healthy and Ron had his head on straight, it was a great system and had things gone the way we all hoped this year, may have brought the championship we all hope for. Alas, Ron went Ron, the injuries piled up (we never had our full roster available to us, meaning Foster and Polly, when we had early Chemistry problems, etc.) and now JO and Tins are out for ?? I truly believe that Rick had a system best suited for our players to win playoff basketball when we had JO and Ron together, ie. before the brawl last year. Since that time we have been reeling for many reasons, and now we have a fresh start with Peja here and Ron difintively gone. Rick has adjusted the system to fit our available players, and we are winning with it. I think we will have a different system from now on, because the players have changed and Rick will maximize the talents of the players he is given and try to win as many games as possible.

Can we win a championship playing this way? I don't think we can without adding JO and what he brings into this system. Carlisle has been in this league for over 20 years, do you really think he doesn't see the things we are pointing out here? He does, but he also sees much more which he has to factor in and try to make the best decisions for the team to win. We aren't at practice or in the locker room and there are many things we just don't know about what goes on behind the scenes which Rick has to deal with. We have to give JO a chance to see how he fits now that Ron is gone and Peja is here. The old system won't work and so I don't think Rick will force it when JO comes back. Granger and Harrison are emerging now, we have a different set of talent to build a system around and I believe this is the beginning of seeing the new system we will be using.

I honestly don't know what to say about Tins. He is a very talented player who this year just didn't seem to fit or be happy, maybe he is upset about Saras coming in and all the hype about that. Whatever it is, he hasn't played well the past month when he's been available, maybe it was the injury, but if he comes back and plays like that I hope we ship him out of here in the summer.

Jax has been playing much better, and his attitude has improved, maybe he will be fine here now. Last night I didn't notice much of his turning into a black hole and he is moving the ball and passing to everyone even Saras when they play together. Lets hope we can see what he can bring along side JO and Peja.

Thanks for insight and thoughts Peck, I always look forward to reading your posts after a game.

sixthman
02-09-2006, 10:51 AM
1st: he's injured no reason to do a happy dance,
2nd: the first to high-five David coming of the court with 1.13 to go = JO
3rd: the first to walk on the court handing Polly a towel is our own towelboy JO

After high fiving some more players he walks on the court and talk a minute with Rasheed.

Serious facial expression? I sincerely hope so, be cause though the team is doing good, he is working with the big men, and he is not playing, he is keeping a close eye on David and talking to all the players Polly, Jeff, David, they all start talking to JO the minute they walk of the court.

After game interview; Jax: we will be a better team when the guys come back from injury.

Thank you for inserting a little truth in this not so subtle assassination of Jermaine O'Neal's character. One certainly doesn't have to like JO's basketball game; that is fair game. But the pseudo psychological analysis is just awful. Particularly when the facts as just presented by abel contradict the absurd notion that JO was an unhappy camper the night of the Piston's victory. Frankly, the idea that father and son would spend time studying freeze frames of JO's face is bizarre.

Ralph Snart
02-09-2006, 10:56 AM
Jermaine can rebound even better than any of our current players. Put him in his natural position play him along side David or Polly tell him to get all the rebounds he can and to think of them as points and he will lead the league in rebounds. Remember Isiah never ran the low post offense that Rick ran and J.O. got his points then too. Jermaine is quicker and more agile than most pf's in the league and at the same time stronger than most of them as well.


I agree. I think once JO is back, you put him in as the starter, and then Foster as his backup, with Pollard starting C, and Harrison as his backup. Then you throw Cro in as needed.

With that you have Peja at the SF (backed up by Granger), Jackson at the SG (backed up by Jones), and Tinsley/AJ at PG (backed up by Saras). I think this gives you a nice rotation and good punch off the bench.

Last night I liked watching Saras play more than AJ, just because when the team was pressing on offense, he did a great job of finding the open space on the floor. He had a bounce pass to Jones that was really good and took advantage of Freddie's speed. You can tell he's starting to gel with the team more and figuring out their strengths.

The biggest example of this are his passes to Harrison. He used to send passes to Hulk right in his breadbasket, thinking he would want the added power of planting and raising his arms. Now instead of going around his defenders, he's looping the ball over them, so all Hulk has to do is catch it high, turn, and lay it in or dunk it.

RWB
02-09-2006, 11:30 AM
Frankly, the idea that father and son would spend time studying freeze frames of JO's face is bizarre.

Frankly 6th I'd say that is pretty cool. For most dads the song "Cats in the Cradle" normally applies.

indygeezer
02-09-2006, 11:48 AM
First off let me say that last night was the 1st game I've really gotten to watch with the new system in place. My first thought was....WoopWoop this is FUUUUN to Watch!!! My next thought was, oh crap the subs play the old style(Booooring). Coinciding with a Blazer comeback.

Thinking back to Tinsley's first year here and how everybody was WOWED by his quicks, his ballhandling, and his passing skills. Then two things coincided. 1)...He hit the rookie wall and 2) the media (and the internet) started yammering about his lack of scoring and how it allowed his man to sag off him. So he worked hard on a shot (when he wasn't injured) and developed a shot that was semi-reliable. Then came 11/19 and he had to assume a scorers role.
So yes, IMO if he could forget that new-found scorers role he could play in this system. (OMG...I'm defending Tinsley:-o ....must remember knuckleheadedness and propensity to Rucker it up).

As for JO...I dunno if he can or cannot....we'll have to see. How did he fare in Portlands system for 4 years before coming here. Sure he was young but did he show the abilitythere?


I gotta agree about the rebounding. The same system that Rick employs is what Bird used and it drove me nuts then too. I was relieved when IT did not use that system.

The Trade deadline is 2 weeks from today....many questions beg answering before then...1st of course is "do we stand pat for now to see what we have, or make a trade to help get us deeper into the PO's". The thing swaying that choice right now is that we are winning. Were we losing it would make the decision much easier.

BTW...one stat I take away from last night's game....Saras had 2 steals (but he's not capable of playing defense, is he?)

sweabs
02-09-2006, 11:50 AM
Was Billups ever asked to score, except in dire situations like Tins now? no.

Actually, hell yes he was asked to score! Pistons fans, help me out here?

Kraft
02-09-2006, 11:52 AM
Let's pool some money and buy a large classified in the Star. It'll include directions on how to block out directed toward Jermaine O'Neal. And then a sharp zinger of a comment to get the point across.

Surely, someone would end up showing him. Now that's bulletin board material.

indygeezer
02-09-2006, 11:54 AM
Frankly 6th I'd say that is pretty cool. For most dads the song "Cats in the Cradle" normally applies.


I wish I had freeze frame ability.

Fool
02-09-2006, 12:01 PM
Did Rick play different sets when in Detroit? Or are we talking about the same Rick Carlisle here that told Ben Wallace not to bother trying to score; just get rebounds?

Can anyone tell me we were playing such a different system then Detroit when Rick was there?
Did we not have Jeff aka Ben, JO aka Rasheed, Ron aka Prince, Jax aka Rip and Tins aka Billups?

Was Billups ever asked to score, except in dire situations like Tins now? no.


1) Carlisle never had Rasheed. I would think that the constant "Carlisle could have won a championship with Detroit if he'd have had Rasheed" comments here prior to the 05 season, would have burned that into your memory. Hell, I would wager you even posted it once or twice yourself.

2) Billups was the second leading scorer on that team. Of course he was asked to score and score a lot. The tale of that season (I assume you are basically talking about the 03 Pistons since before that only Ben, from your list of Pistons, was even on the squad) was pretty much "if the back court can get 40 pts, the Pistons win". Billups did make a lot of game winning shots that year, but he wasn't just sitting at the arc watching the whole game go by waiting till he was called to shoot it with 3 seconds on the game clock.

3) The 03 Pistons got every defensive rebound. If you are comparing the 04 Pacers to the 03 Pistons, then your comparison is more valid. But until now this seasons Pacers rebound, defensively, more like the current Pistons (I can't stand the current state of Piston defensive rebounding) then the 03 Pistons. The 03 Pistons hardly ever sacrificed defensive boards in order to front the post.

shockedandchagrined
02-09-2006, 12:07 PM
Thank you for inserting a little truth in this not so subtle assassination of Jermaine O'Neal's character. One certainly doesn't have to like JO's basketball game; that is fair game. But the pseudo psychological analysis is just awful. Particularly when the facts as just presented by abel contradict the absurd notion that JO was an unhappy camper the night of the Piston's victory. Frankly, the idea that father and son would spend time studying freeze frames of JO's face is bizarre.

I find all the bench obervations and deductions to be a little odd as well. I mean I'm not going to dismiss it outright, but at least consider other possibilities. For example, JO just got injured and is essentially out for an indefinite period of time. This happens right as Artest is finally traded and Peja added, lifting an albatross from everyone's back. And while the team finally thrives, JO has to accept that he cannot contribute to it. In other words he was feeling sorry for himself, not being able to play with the team, as they finally begin to shed the yoke of adversity.

JO definitely has maturing left to do, but I'd hate to blanketly characterize him as being incapable of doing just that. Everyone is talking about how good this team is without JO and Tinsley. I would suggest that the most likely difference is that the Artest situation is finally resolved.

Jermaniac
02-09-2006, 12:26 PM
OK one last attempt to get reason in to some of you, others I have given up hope for, but it becomes dreary and old quick to read the continuous JO and Tins bashing and now my favorite read in the morning after got contaminated with it as well, so as I said, I should do a last ditch effort before I clasp my hands together, look at the sky and give up and go do something more worth while.

Let's face some hard facts before we draw upon conclusions we seem to reach at the moment.

What were/are the characteristics of the "iso-offense" we play(ed)?

PG bringing up the ball, considering we want a low tempo to control most flow the pg pounds the ball, makes some threatening moves and gets the ball to the post player who is (hopefully) drawing a double team, then passing out to waiting player on the perimeter, or when the double does not come or to late OR when no perimeter player is "easily" reachable, goes for the basket.

This does not exactly put he post player in the position to box out, so any rebounds he gets are to come from athleticism instead of other means.
It also leaves at most 1 player under the basket, so getting position for rebounds in itself becomes hard, unless they are the "long" type rebounds, because there are enough players on the perimeter.
That is of course if they haven't already ran back to go on defense.

Now is there any action in there that was not pre-destined, and written in stone on the blackboard in the locker, then please let me know.

Also please come with some form of proof that this is the choice of play by the people you are indicting with this, JO and Tins.

I for one do not believe it for ONE second to be their choice offense, nor defense.

Did Rick play different sets when in Detroit? Or are we talking about the same Rick Carlisle here that told Ben Wallace not to bother trying to score; just get rebounds?

Can anyone tell me we were playing such a different system then Detroit when Rick was there?
Did we not have Jeff aka Ben, JO aka Rasheed, Ron aka Prince, Jax aka Rip and Tins aka Billups?

Was Billups ever asked to score, except in dire situations like Tins now? no.

So the same dog, the same tricks.
Weren't we all in Flip's jockstrap earlier in the season when Detroit wen on a rampage by him letting the players play, run and score?
Aren't we talking about the same players 2 years ago known for their grindout ball, the 60 point games with a win?

So now I have established the MO for the coach(ing staff, because really O'Neill is no different) we can move on to the players.

What is JO's natural position? right PF, as such he is known for speed and power, good shot, strong moves to and around the rim, one of the most versatile big man in the league.
Never wondered why coaches and other players call him all that?

Now unless I can't read, I am sure I read several times that JO does NOT like playing at C.
But let's face it, where has he played the past 2.5 years?
Do we really want to maintain after what we are seeing at current that Jeff played C?

Well for those that do, please, you are delusional.

HOWEVER, while partly playing C, he also had the task of playing PF, be the main scoring threat and have the offense grind through him.

Jeff was there for the rebounding, rebounding and rebounding, nothing else.
Just like Rick wanted to and used as Ben Wallace.

As I wrote in an earlier post in a thread about the "big question" (another one about JO) JO did not come up with the idea of bulking up, he did so because it was asked or he was told, so he could have more resilience in banging down low.
Now is that not one of the last things we want him to do?
Isn't it clear NOW that Polly and David are much more suited for that?

Now I have written ad nauseum about Tins' injuries, like most here, be it from a different angle, but again, how did he get inured this year?

Because every game he started the 1st 3 plays of the game were him driving to the rim.
Why?
Tins' is not the player known to break any play, the last to go his own chance, more then enough handles to do a lot of other things, yet game after game, and please do go over the recordings if you don't believe me, he drove to the hoop the first 3 plays.

That made the defense pay a different kind of attention, collapsing quicker and leaving room for the wing players.

He got hurt that way, someone grabbed his arm, he tore a biceps and done.
However we were not playing to well, so he was rushed back, with as a result his arm overworked to get well again (regain strength) and thus as a result his elbow is injured (can anyone say tennis elbow?)
Yeah right, always injured Mel, Who last year played with a foot injury the med staff was unable to correctly diagnose and which was most likely similar to Maggette's injury, but just diagnosed after he tried playing on it, for the good of the team, since most other players were out.

Is there anyone out there that thinks he is not the best PG we have? Thought so.

Now let's face it straight up, instead of "wondering aloud";

JO @ PF! would fit just fine in this setup of the team, or is there anyone out there that thinks that Jeff is better suited then JO to play PF?

Fast moves, deep passes and fast break offense, anyone willing to bet Tins is not at his best at that? With his vision of the floor, ability to zip passes? ability to finish at the rim, penetrate and kick out ?
Is there anyone who does not think that JO and Tins can run a great pick&roll?

Of course we will have a "problem" in who to play when they come back, some depth will either go to deep, or someone will lose some minutes.
But would it really hurt to see less of Jeff? IF he's replaced by JO?
And YES I DO think that Tins should come back of the bench, just as much as I am sure that wont last to long before he establishes being the best again.
Do we really think AJ would have a problem playing with the second unit? To me (and I thought I would never say this) he has more then established that if not starting he should get the majority of the backup minutes. Sorry but for now Saras moves down the order.

Now get Polly to start at C, or even David, I mean; wouldn't you love to see JO at PF and a real C alongside? Peja Granger and Tins to fill out the 5? Or sub Granger for Jax, either way it will be a great starting 5.
And for the Bench? (yes with a capital B) Do you want to bring in your bench against them? Whether it is David or Polly at C, Granger, Fred, AJ and if you want to rest all starters, bring in Jeff as well.

JO nor Tinsley is the problem in this team, the coach's MO is clear evidence, so easily overlooked.
So we start to say that maybe JO wants his touches, his points, whatever, but can we give an example where JO has not done all that was asked of him, no matter what, without pouting, complaining, sulking or under protest? No we can't JO has been an exemplary soldier just like Tins.
The least we can do is give them the benefit of the doubt, because when they return and we return to the "iso-ball" then we can rightly once again say that it is Rick, because JO and Tins are both on record for saying they do not really like the "iso-ball" offense.Get this man a job with the Star

able
02-09-2006, 12:29 PM
1) Carlisle never had Rasheed. I would think that the constant "Carlisle could have won a championship with Detroit if he'd have had Rasheed" comments here prior to the 05 season, would have burned that into your memory. Hell, I would wager you even posted it once or twice yourself.

ma bad, not that I ever posted such a thing, but yes you are right, he had Okur .



2) Billups was the second leading scorer on that team. Of course he was asked to score and score a lot. The tale of that season (I assume you are basically talking about the 03 Pistons since before that only Ben, from your list of Pistons, was even on the squad) was pretty much "if the back court can get 40 pts, the Pistons win". Billups did make a lot of game winning shots that year, but he wasn't just sitting at the arc watching the whole game go by waiting till he was called to shoot it with 3 seconds on the game clock.
In Rick's last year in Detroit, the first year Chauncey was there, he shot a lot less, in actual fact he shot 600 more a year later and projections this year come closer to 1000+ more then the year Rick was there.


3) The 03 Pistons got every defensive rebound. If you are comparing the 04 Pacers to the 03 Pistons, then your comparison is more valid. But until now this seasons Pacers rebound, defensively, more like the current Pistons (I can't stand the current state of Piston defensive rebounding) then the 03 Pistons. The 03 Pistons hardly ever sacrificed defensive boards in order to front the post.

The style we "play" as in 04 has not changed, and yes that is the style I am referring to, that all but a few here hate, last season we were complete for what 9 games? and not even really complete and this year we have never been complete either, so playing that was has become weird with pieces moving fmor one to another spot.

The fronting the post is the sole difference between the setups and that is more a personelle option then anything else.

Harmonica
02-09-2006, 12:36 PM
Frankly, the idea that father and son would spend time studying freeze frames of JO's face is bizarre.
:lmao:


Golden.

Jermaniac
02-09-2006, 12:49 PM
Thank you for inserting a little truth in this not so subtle assassination of Jermaine O'Neal's character. One certainly doesn't have to like JO's basketball game; that is fair game. But the pseudo psychological analysis is just awful. Particularly when the facts as just presented by abel contradict the absurd notion that JO was an unhappy camper the night of the Piston's victory. Frankly, the idea that father and son would spend time studying freeze frames of JO's face is bizarre.lmao, another great post

Fool
02-09-2006, 12:49 PM
ma bad, not that I ever posted such a thing, but yes you are right, he had Hedo.



In Rick's last year in Detroit, the first year Chauncey was there, he shot a lot less, in actual fact he shot 600 more a year later and projections this year come closer to 1000+ more then the year Rick was there.



The style we "play" as in 04 has not changed, and yes that is the style I am referring to, that all but a few here hate, last season we were complete for what 9 games? and not even really complete and this year we have never been complete either, so playing that was has become weird with pieces moving fmor one to another spot.

The fronting the post is the sole difference between the setups and that is more a personelle option then anything else.

Hedo Turkoglu has never played for the Pistons. [Seeing your edit: He did have Okur who played 19 minutes a game, Robinson started at the 4 and played the majority of the minutes]

Billups shot 870 attempts in 03 (Carlisle's last year) and 996 attempts in 04 a difference of 120 shots. Coincidentally, the Pistons went farther in the playoffs in 04 and Billups shot a totall of 286 times in the playoffs of 04 as opposed to 190 shots in 03, a difference of 96 shots. So yes, Chauncey did shoot more under Brown then under Rick, he took 24 more shots total.

I don't think it would come as a shock to anyone if it is indeed true that Chauncey (and almost every member of the entire Piston team) is on course to shoot many more shot this year then they did in any year under Brown or Carlisle.

I won't argue the Pacers style of play as there are many things the Pacers and Pistons under Carlisle do/did a like, I would however comment that I think many would argue against the notion that the Pacers style of play hasn't changed from '04 including or excluding the last 3 or so games.

able
02-09-2006, 01:00 PM
Hedo Turkoglu has never played for the Pistons. [Seeing your edit: He did have Okur who played 19 minutes a game, Robinson started at the 4 and played the majority of the minutes]

Billups shot 870 attempts in 03 (Carlisle's last year) and 996 attempts in 04 a difference of 120 shots. Coincidentally, the Pistons went farther in the playoffs in 04 and Billups shot a totall of 286 times in the playoffs of 04 as opposed to 190 shots in 03, a difference of 96 shots. So yes, Chauncey did shoot more under Brown then under Rick, he took 24 more shots total.

I don't think it would come as a shock to anyone if it is indeed true that Chauncey (and almost every member of the entire Piston team) is on course to shoot many more shot this year then they did in any year under Brown or Carlisle.

I won't argue the Pacers style of play as there are many things the Pacers and Pistons under Carlisle do/did a like, I would however comment that I think many would argue against the notion that the Pacers style of play hasn't changed from '04 including or excluding the last 3 or so games.


Yeah I meant Hedo where I typed Okur, perhaps one day I will explain why I mix those names up :)

as for the shots, I copied the wrong info, but he took (regular season) indeed 126 more shot. The post season stats are mentioned seperately

on a 1,000 shosts that is a 10% increase, under Brown. that is whatever way you look upon it quite an increase.

No matter however the symantics, we do agree on the "identical style" we play(ed) yes we made changes, all given by circumstnaces, not free will, last year we had a long time with a more uptempo, free flowing offense, however when the "pieces" moved back in we went back to "grind" :/

Fool
02-09-2006, 01:23 PM
You are correct about the playoffs being counted seperately (and thanks, I don't think I had ever payed attention to that). But that still leaves Billups averaging only one more shot per game in 04 then he did in 03 and slightly less shots per game in 05 then in 03 (we are both foolish for not having gone to per game stats for this topic). So I still disagree that Billups was relied upon less under Carlisle then under Brown.

The rest (aside from the use of the 4 spot, but I will admit thats probably based on player talent) I agree that we aren't very far apart on.

Arcadian
02-09-2006, 01:38 PM
Saying that JO would or would not be willing to do something involves a lot of conjecture.

I believe the win streak has more to do with the Ron saga being done and getting Peja.

McKeyFan
02-09-2006, 01:39 PM
I'd say that is pretty cool. For most dads the song "Cats in the Cradle" normally applies.

Agreed.

CableKC
02-09-2006, 01:40 PM
All of you seem to know more of the "mechanics" of the current offense....so I will defer to your answers on this.

Regarding the PG situation, let's wipe the slate clean and look at this on a level playing field.

Ignoring the obvious problem....Tinsley's knack for injuries....for now....which PG has the best skillset to fit the current style of the offense?

I'm one of the "Trade Tinsley after his BYC condition expires"....so don't think that I want Tinsley to automatically start. I'm just trying to look at this from an "objective" perspective.

Jon Theodore
02-09-2006, 02:01 PM
I think it is too easy to say the problem lies solely with Carlisle or JO, it has to do with both. Perhaps my biggest issue with Jermaine, is one that I don't talk about much. Someone mentioned it, about the stare down he gives people when he dunks. YOUR 6'11 I HOPE TO GOD YOU CAN DUNK ON SOMEBODY.

Now that I got that out of my system. Carlisle is not a good coach for a team like this. We need someone like Adelman or George Karl, somebody who will accept nothing less than stellar TEAM basketball.

Also has been pointed out, I am willing to agree we are simply TOO DEEP. I think players like Tins/Jermaine who seem to be rather injury prone...should just sit out games periodically throughout the season...to PRESERVE them.

If i was getting millions of dollars, I can't imagine having a problem with that. There are not enough minutes to go around, that is why we play better undermanned. We still desperately need to make that 2 for 1 trade people have been talking about for so long.

Sidenote: POLLARD WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE!

Trading Saras/Granger....a move that might upset a LOT of people...could land us a VERY good player. But that is a move you make if you think we are ready to CONTEND right now and are possibly willing to sacrifice the future. A lot of people don't feel we are contenders now and I am one of those people. Saras and Granger are my favorite Pacers, I do not advocate this move...just throwing it out there. Because I truly feel this team still needs an adjustment.

Obviously, if i'm the coach I am moving Jermaine....but did I even need to state that?

I think what we really should look at doing is possibly moving JO/Freddy for an elite guard. Somebody who you can count on to fill it up. I'm sure we could get a draft pick out of this deal too.

But in conclusion, Peck that was the best post i've read on these forums, not much I can add.

Ragnar
02-09-2006, 02:04 PM
All of you seem to know more of the "mechanics" of the current offense....so I will defer to your answers on this.

Regarding the PG situation, let's wipe the slate clean and look at this on a level playing field.

Ignoring the obvious problem....Tinsley's knack for injuries....for now....which PG has the best skillset to fit the current style of the offense?

I'm one of the "Trade Tinsley after his BYC condition expires"....so don't think that I want Tinsley to automatically start. I'm just trying to look at this from an "objective" perspective.

The current offense would play directly to Tinsley's skills. Do not confuse the fact that he is also our teams best half court point guard with him not being good in the open court. With this offense Tinsley would be in the all star game (if he could stay healthy of course)

Ragnar
02-09-2006, 02:06 PM
Trading Saras/Granger....a move that might upset a LOT of people...could land us a VERY good player. But that is a move you make if you think we are ready to CONTEND right now and are possibly willing to sacrifice the future. A lot of people don't feel we are contenders now and I am one of those people. Saras and Granger are my favorite Pacers, I do not advocate this move...just throwing it out there. Because I truly feel this team still needs an adjustment.



WTF trade Granger???????:-o:-o:-o:-o:-o

No way in hell we trade Granger. If the Pacers traded Granger I would riot. This kid is the future for the Pacers.

Peck
02-09-2006, 02:17 PM
I've been discredited, I'm a fraud.


I simply don't have time right now to respond. maybe tonight

:spitout: :rotflmao:

B@stard.

I had to change uniform shirts & wipe off my computer screen at work because when I read that I literally spit pink lemonaid out.

Anthem
02-09-2006, 02:32 PM
I agree that Tinsley would thrive in this offense. I just don't care, because he can't stay healthy. I also think JO would thrive in this offense, assuming we keep running it. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't trade him for KG.

Peck, I'm not sure how to elaborate on what I said earlier. Maybe Jay can help. The short answer is that I don't want this team to go 15 deep with players expecting to play every night. I want 9 or 10 guys that can be part of the rotation, a couple decent third-stringers in case of injury, and that's about it. We've bragged for the last couple of years how good our third string was. That doesn't win us championships. I want our money tied up in the players that will actually be on the court.

So when I say "depth is overrated" I don't mean I don't want 5 good players coming off the bench. I mean I don't want 10. If we have 10 bench players that deserve minutes, then we should trade quantity for quality and get better players that can actually get on the court.

Fireball Kid
02-09-2006, 02:33 PM
I think it is too easy to say the problem lies solely with Carlisle or JO, it has to do with both. Perhaps my biggest issue with Jermaine, is one that I don't talk about much. Someone mentioned it, about the stare down he gives people when he dunks. YOUR 6'11 I HOPE TO GOD YOU CAN DUNK ON SOMEBODY.

Now that I got that out of my system. Carlisle is not a good coach for a team like this. We need someone like Adelman or George Karl, somebody who will accept nothing less than stellar TEAM basketball.

Also has been pointed out, I am willing to agree we are simply TOO DEEP. I think players like Tins/Jermaine who seem to be rather injury prone...should just sit out games periodically throughout the season...to PRESERVE them.

If i was getting millions of dollars, I can't imagine having a problem with that. There are not enough minutes to go around, that is why we play better undermanned. We still desperately need to make that 2 for 1 trade people have been talking about for so long.

Sidenote: POLLARD WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE!

Trading Saras/Granger....a move that might upset a LOT of people...could land us a VERY good player. But that is a move you make if you think we are ready to CONTEND right now and are possibly willing to sacrifice the future. A lot of people don't feel we are contenders now and I am one of those people. Saras and Granger are my favorite Pacers, I do not advocate this move...just throwing it out there. Because I truly feel this team still needs an adjustment.

Obviously, if i'm the coach I am moving Jermaine....but did I even need to state that?

I think what we really should look at doing is possibly moving JO/Freddy for an elite guard. Somebody who you can count on to fill it up. I'm sure we could get a draft pick out of this deal too.

But in conclusion, Peck that was the best post i've read on these forums, not much I can add.
Thats cool. Really, thats a fine comment you just made there. Really, it is.












Now get out.:kicknuts:

naptownmenace
02-09-2006, 02:34 PM
Regarding Tinsley:

As much as I dislike Tinsley, I have to admit that I think he has the ability to excel in this type of up tempo offense.

However, I've noticed one thing about Tinsley that is troubling and something that has changed in him over the past couple of years. He hardly ever passes on the fastbreak anymore. I wish I had a dollar for every 3-on-1 break where he has forced a layup when he could've easily taken the assist for an easier shot by his teammate.

He does usually draw a foul in those situations but since he's not a good free throw shooter it would make more sense to just make the easy pass and get the points on the board. If he returns, that has to stop because the team right now is excelling because they are pushing the ball up the floor, looking, and finding the open teammate for easy buckets.

Regarding JO:

I agree with whoever brought up the 2003 playoffs series against the Celtics. JO was a beast on the boards and he pulled down 20+ rebounds in 4 out of the 6 games they played. He could lead the league in rebounding if Rick pressed him to do so.

I believe that last year, with Ron out of the lineup, Rick made the mistake of leaning on JO to much when he returned. It's understandable because Reggie and Foster were still slowly returning from injury and didn't have their timing together and Jack was still out on suspension. To his credit, JO played at an all-time high until his shoulder was seperated by a cheap shot in Portland.

During the playoffs, after JO returned, Rick went back to utilizing him the same way when he didn't have to. I put some of the fault on Reggie too because he returned to defering to JO at first, making the offense very predictable. They couldn't get out of the mind-set that JO should get 20-24 shots a game.

When Artest went out again this year, they started to revert back to the old mind-set. Now that they have Peja and Fred, Granger, and Harrison have made their strides and proven themselves, I think the JO will return and just try to fit in. It's up to Rick to make sure they don't revert back to a stand-around-watch-JO-work style of offense.

Doug
02-09-2006, 02:47 PM
IMO, I think JO will not only willingly but enthusiastically fit into this type of offense.

Part of that is probably wishful thinking. But why not? JO has always said the right things, and I think he means to do them as well. He's already gotten his "max" deal, no need to pad his stats. He's popular enough that he will get lots of all-star votes. He's good enough that if he retires here #7 has a good chance to go into the rafters.

What's to play for, but a ring?

And in this type of offense, JO might not get more shots, but they will be easier ones. Having a real center in there will certainly cut down the wear-and-tear on the defensive end. But this offense will save a whole bunch of wear-and-tear on the offensive end. Grinding it out in the post every other play wears a guy down. He appreciate that big-time, I think.

If this type of basketball is "winning basketball", and I think it is, I can't find a reason for JO not to fit in just fine. I do worry about Rick falling back to the dump-it-to-JO style, though.

Bball
02-09-2006, 03:06 PM
IMO, I think JO will not only willingly but enthusiastically fit into this type of offense.

Part of that is probably wishful thinking. But why not? JO has always said the right things, and I think he means to do them as well. He's already gotten his "max" deal, no need to pad his stats. He's popular enough that he will get lots of all-star votes. He's good enough that if he retires here #7 has a good chance to go into the rafters.

What's to play for, but a ring?

And in this type of offense, JO might not get more shots, but they will be easier ones. Having a real center in there will certainly cut down the wear-and-tear on the defensive end. But this offense will save a whole bunch of wear-and-tear on the offensive end. Grinding it out in the post every other play wears a guy down. He appreciate that big-time, I think.

If this type of basketball is "winning basketball", and I think it is, I can't find a reason for JO not to fit in just fine. I do worry about Rick falling back to the dump-it-to-JO style, though.


If we let JO pose after rebounds and blockouts do you think he'd work on them in a fundamental sense?

On a serious note- I don't have any doubt we'll be going back to the 'dump it down to JO offense' as soon as he returns.

We're going to pretend he's Shaq, and he's going to pretend he's Shaq, and we'll bog things down again. There's a lot of talk whether it's Carlisle or JO... well... maybe it is both!? Maybe Carlisle ultimately does want to go to JO and hopes he'll get better, as will the team, playing that style. I can believe Carlisle wants to go to JO like he does (I don't like it but I could believe it) BUT I find it hard to believe JO is living up to expectations when they play that way. So we (TPTB) keep pretending... And we keep doing it because no one wants to tell the emperor he has no clothes.

-Bball

D-BONE
02-09-2006, 03:20 PM
If we let JO pose after rebounds and blockouts do you think he'd work on them in a fundamental sense?

On a serious note- I don't have any doubt we'll be going back to the 'dump it down to JO offense' as soon as he returns.

We're going to pretend he's Shaq, and he's going to pretend he's Shaq, and we'll bog things down again. There's a lot of talk whether it's Carlisle or JO... well... maybe it is both!? Maybe Carlisle ultimately does want to go to JO and hopes he'll get better, as will the team, playing that style. I can believe Carlisle wants to go to JO like he does (I don't like it but I could believe it) BUT I find it hard to believe JO is living up to expectations when they play that way. So we (TPTB) keep pretending... And we keep doing it because no one wants to tell the emperor he has no clothes.

-Bball

Bball, please! I hope you're wrong. I don't know how much more I could tolerate if they go back to that slogging, grinding, plodding attack. Tinsley and JO are both very capable of playing in the current system I think. They at least have to give it a try.

Unclebuck
02-09-2006, 04:04 PM
Is it the dump down to the low post that evertone hates or is it the dump down to J.O that everyone hates.

In other words if the Pacers had Shaq circa 2000, would you be OK with dumping it down to Shaq.

is it the system or is it the player you don't like

travmil
02-09-2006, 04:13 PM
Dumping down to Shaq usually resulted in a dunk during that time, and he led the league in FG% MANY times. With JO, it usually leads to a low % baseline fadeaway jumper. So yes, it's the player. JO just doesn't seem to fit that style of play. With one exception. JO played well during that stretch of 04-05 when he returned from suspension. He was automatic there for about 30 games. If that was the case, and coming into this season I honestly thought it would be, I'd love to see it. Now, JO should run the court and be more of an Amare type player. He's capable of it, and it's what this team is built for right now. This would still allow JO to score plenty of points in transition. It also wouldn't hurt if he'd teach himself to be even a mediocre passer. Of course, that never hurts any player.

Peck
02-09-2006, 04:15 PM
Is it the dump down to the low post that evertone hates or is it the dump down to J.O that everyone hates.

In other words if the Pacers had Shaq circa 2000, would you be OK with dumping it down to Shaq.

is it the system or is it the player you don't like

In the context of which you speak I'll answer.

The player.

Shaq did not fade away for 15' floaters after holding the ball for 10 seconds.

Shaq, in 00, had also learned how to make quick decisions on passing.

Shaq could be counted on for games in the high 20's every night on less than 20 shots a game.

Shaq was the most dominate physical specimine to ever play the game (maybe Wilt in his later years was as strong but who knows).

So player for player I'll say it's the player.

Now if you wanna say system vs. player that is a differant story.

brichard
02-09-2006, 04:31 PM
Able,

I can understand your defense of JO. I think you bring up some pretty good arguments that would place the onus on Rick for the style of play we use. As a matter of fact I tend to agree.

What I don't understand is your defense of Tinsley. Maybe his injuries have nothing to do with conditioning. Perhaps he is the most ardent player on our team at taking care of himself. I don't think any of us really know the answer to that question.

But what I do know is this... he is injured a lot. I was listening to the Radio show Pacers overtime with Kevin Lee and he mentinoed that Tinsley just may not have an NBA body that can take the abuse. But even if he is the most unlucky son of a gun in the world, it still doesn't change the fact that he can't play an awful lot of the time.

And even when he does play, he does have a tendency to revert into 1 on 1 play and risky moves. He has the best handle on the team and that is without question. But if he can't consistently show up for games, in spite of the reasoning, it just hurts this team. Maybe this is the last flare up, but if history is a good indicator, the odds are not in his favor.

stipo
02-09-2006, 04:34 PM
In the context of which you speak I'll answer.

The player.

Shaq did not fade away for 15' floaters after holding the ball for 10 seconds.

Shaq, in 00, had also learned how to make quick decisions on passing.

Shaq could be counted on for games in the high 20's every night on less than 20 shots a game.

Shaq was the most dominate physical specimine to ever play the game (maybe Wilt in his later years was as strong but who knows).

So player for player I'll say it's the player.

Now if you wanna say system vs. player that is a differant story.

Yessss! and it counts!
J.O'Neal isn't S.O'Neal --whole different offensive game. Isn't a low post game a lot more effective if the player attacks the basket at least HALF of the time? We can get Tisdale out of retirement if we want his kind of post-up shots
And I'm STILL (I'll admit I'm slow) adjusting to the Pacers new spot in the food chain. If I can't follow a championship run by my team this year, at least let their style of play be entertaining basketball!

Gamble
02-09-2006, 04:49 PM
I'll just say this if it hasn't been said before... Wait and see.
I am not a patient man but i am interested to see how Peja
and JO play together. We have proven that Tinsley isn't required
for this team to win games. I am fan for him being traded and one
last comment. MAggette twisted his ankle on a shot and Tinsley got stepped on.

The ICU is no place for an effective point guard.

D-BONE
02-09-2006, 05:18 PM
JO will still post up in this offense if it is continued upon his return and he'll be an important threat there. IMO it's just that it won't go down into him to initiate every single possession he's on the floor. Plus, he will have to make quicker decisions if he's doubled when they do post him. A good example of recognizing the double and making a good pass happend two or three times last night when the worked Jack and Peja on the right side. Peja had a smaller defender and as soon as Jack's guy sagged to far down, Peja immediately kicked it back for a nice 3 point look. Jack converted at least two or three on that same set up. Kudos to Peja! Except for the one time he tried to dump it back out really early and the ball slipped out of his hands. OOPS!

indygeezer
02-09-2006, 05:37 PM
In order for JO to be effective in this system he will have to forego posturing and glaring, and embrace running, passing, jumping, and rebounding. There will be scant time for the former and a needed emphasis on the latter.

CableKC
02-09-2006, 05:46 PM
The current offense seems to be the "Best fit" for the current makeup and lineup of the team.

Once everyone is back.......what would be the "Best fit" offense for that lineup?

IMHO....it pretty much comes down to:

Do we change the offense to fit the players?

or

Do we change the players to fit the offense?

and based off of Carlisle's coaching history....even dating back to his Pistons' days......which does he tend to do?

indygeezer
02-09-2006, 05:57 PM
The current offense seems to be the "Best fit" for the current makeup and lineup of the team.

Once everyone is back.......what would be the "Best fit" offense for that lineup?

IMHO....it pretty much comes down to:

Do we change the offense to fit the players?

or

Do we change the players to fit the offense?

and based off of Carlisle's coaching history....even dating back to his Pistons' days......which does he tend to do?


I think we can use last year as a template for this year (Past preformance is an indicator of future....). JO/JT return, we return to what we were doing, just like last year.

Slick Pinkham
02-09-2006, 06:02 PM
I'm one of the biggest Carlisle fans on here, but if he scraps the revamped offense for a walk-it-up and pass in to Jermaine and let him do something offense, then we seriously need to consider a coaching change.

i don't think that will happen.

Pig Nash
02-09-2006, 06:28 PM
I get both sides of the Jermaine argument. He's awesome, but I don't want him screwing (or Carlisle screwing) up what we've got now with the post up offense. I think he would fit fine in the offense we have now, he would just have to take a smaller roll. He'd probably put up as good stats as he does now, and we would win, which is what he cares about anyway.

Now I don't understand the Tinsley is useful argument. I get that he would be better than any of our pgs in this offense. But the operative word there is would. He's never going to stay healthy. There is no way that he makes it through an entire season. I love his game but I don't want him messing chemistry up like he does every season with his continuous coming and going.

Moses
02-09-2006, 06:37 PM
As to Jamaal? Sorry, injury prone or not he just is not available enough for me to care anymore. I know he is almost impossible to move right now but over the summer it is time to do something else & no Saras is not the answer.

Now before everybody has a seizure with me complaining about things after a three game win streak understand this. I know we are on a hot streak right now & as soon as teams get us scouted this may change again, who knows.
I'm not the biggest Sarunas fan in the world but how can you say he isn't the answer after just half a season of adjusting to an NBA game and a brand new NBA system? I agree with everything else in your post but this..Maybe 2 years down the road from now, I might agree..But I think Sarunas is playing great right now. I think he's a much better fast break PG then AJ but AJ is a much better half court player. There is no doubt in my mind Sarunas could easily be a starting PG a year from now on a run and gun team out west.

And the play of Jamal Tinsley will be our key to a championship this year. AJ has been great every now and then but he's as streaky as Jackson is in terms of how he runs the offense..One game he can be great and then the very next he can completely blow a lead in a matter of 5 minutes.

brichard
02-09-2006, 06:39 PM
I think the funniest thing about this whole thread is that some of us are in denial. We all said last year that when O'Neal comes back we can't stop this "share the ball game." And that is exactly what we did.

Every game this year with O'neal has basically been the same thing. I'm hopeful we will change, but why would Rick turn over a new leaf when we see what would appear to be obvious?

And what I think it boils down to is control. Rick likes the dump it in offense b/c he feels he can expolit his best chess piece, Jermaine O'neal, against the other team. And more often than not he is going to have an advantage. He views this as "safe."

If you listened to his news confererence he kept talking about the pros and cons of a looser offense. More fun to watch, more opportunities on offense, but it also brings with it the tendency to get a little too loosey goosey out there. Those weren't his exact words :cool:, but he was worried that if the open offense is undisciplined it has some opportunities to burn you if you don't get back on the defensive end.

Rick is conservative. He goes with vets. He goes with defense. And when he can, he always has and probably will continue to dump it into the post. I've not seen anything that would make me think differently.

CableKC
02-09-2006, 07:04 PM
Okay....let's broaden our minds.....is it possible to run a dynamic offense like this ( Old Vs. New )....based purely off of matchups against the opposing team?

For example, wouldn't it be better to use the "low-post....dump it to JONeal" type offense against teams that have a very small frontlne and very bad low-post defenders ( like NJ or GSW ).....then use a different type of offense ( like the current one that includes a lesser used low-post threat with JONeal playing Foster's role ) against teams that has a bigger and more troublesome Frontline ( like against the Spurs, Pistons or even the Clippers )?

Realistically...I see benefits to both type of offenses. If JONeal is being guarded by Troy Murphy in a game ( a very poor low-post defender ) and JONeal is abusing him.....I would want to get him the ball as much as possible. But if JONeal is being defended by Duncan....I may not want to get the ball to him as often.

Slick Pinkham
02-09-2006, 07:11 PM
Rick is conservative. He goes with vets. He goes with defense. And when he can, he always has and probably will continue to dump it into the post. I've not seen anything that would make me think differently.

It was totally out of character then for him to insert Granger and Harrison into the lineup for the last 3-4 minutes against Detroit. I would have thought he'd play it safe and go with Jeff and/or Scot.

That gives me hope that he can change his thinking if solid facts (like great play and wins) are staring him in the face.

hoopsforlife
02-09-2006, 07:12 PM
Okay....let's broaden our minds.....is it possible to run a dynamic offense like this ( Old Vs. New )....based purely off of matchups against the opposing team?

For example, wouldn't it be better to use the "low-post....dump it to JONeal" type offense against teams that have a very small frontlne and very bad low-post defenders ( like NJ or GSW ).....then use a different type of offense ( like the current one that includes a lesser used low-post threat with JONeal playing Foster's role ) against teams that has a bigger and more troublesome Frontline ( like against the Spurs, Pistons or even the Clippers )?

Realistically...I see benefits to both type of offenses. If JONeal is being guarded by Troy Murphy in a game ( a very poor low-post defender ) and JONeal is abusing him.....I would want to get him the ball as much as possible. But if JONeal is being defended by Duncan....I may not want to get the ball to him as often.

OK. Now I've had it. Your using logic and logic simply has no place on this board.. :mad:


:)

CableKC
02-09-2006, 07:33 PM
OK. Now I've had it. Your using logic and logic simply has no place on this board.. :mad:
:)
It just dawned on me after I read birchard's post. It maybe possible.....but I don't know if its a good idea to switch up the type of offense ON PURPOSE ( as opposed to being forced to switch up the offense due to injuries ) on a regular basis.

I would think that some semblance of consistency....which none of the starting lineup / bench has experienced in the last 3 seasons....would be a benefit. But you guys know more about basketball fundamentals then I do...I simply don't know if its a good idea to do that from a coaching / lineup perspecitive.

hoopsforlife
02-09-2006, 07:59 PM
It just dawned on me after I read birchard's post. It maybe possible.....but I don't know if its a good idea to switch up the type of offense ON PURPOSE ( as opposed to being forced to switch up the offense due to injuries ) on a regular basis.

I would think that some semblance of consistency....which none of the starting lineup / bench has experienced in the last 3 seasons....would be a benefit. But you guys know more about basketball fundamentals then I do...I simply don't know if its a good idea to do that from a coaching / lineup perspecitive.

I personally would like to see Rick go with what is working. I like the way the Pacers have been playing the last few games. I still believe Ron would have been very valuable in this type of offense we run now. But Carlisle seemed to like the Tins to JO set more and just wouldn't open it up until he was forced into it by injuries to both JO and JT. At least now we know what this team is capable of and what to expect out of it in the future. The addition of Peja has been a good thing because of his shooting ability. Teams simply cannot sag inside like before because he will burn them. Peja is not too proud to pass the ball if he sees someone with a better shot.

This could turn out to be good year yet if JO and JT can become more team oriented. IF its Ricks fault that they go back to the old style of Dump Shoot Miss or Drive Turnover then Rick should be replaced. I like Carlisle as a coach but enough is enough already.

PS: There is still time to make a trade yet and I would be in favor of a two for one somewhere with filler. I still don't see how Austin is going to fit into this scheme now. We have too many good players and not enough minutes for them all. I honestly don't know who I would replace with who or what position to fill. We, when healthy are DEEP. Too deep but thats not a bad thing. I could see trading some top tier talent for picks in the draft at this point. :shrug:

Big Smooth
02-09-2006, 09:04 PM
Regarding Tinsley, there is no further legit defense for him. Either you can stay healthy enough to play in the NBA or not. In his case, the answer seems to obviously be NOT.

When Tins plays, he does good things. But he does not play enough. And I 100% support those who feel that he should be forced to earn back his starting spot. I almost wonder at times if he isn't dogging it a bit in the regular season b/c in the postseason, he inevitably comes back at a certain point and plays through the pain.

Very torn in the issue of Jermaine and I have many thoughts which for the time being, I'll keep to myself and release once I've had a proper chance to see how things play out. But I do not hold a negative opinion of JO.