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himikey
02-07-2006, 07:25 PM
This guy speaks as if Rifleman is the anti-christ..

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2006/02/pacers-we-love-to-hate-part-3.html

Kstat
02-07-2006, 07:27 PM
No, but Jay will kill you when he reads this.....

btowncolt
02-07-2006, 07:49 PM
Ack! Private poll!

aceace
02-07-2006, 08:00 PM
He was R.O.Y. in 86-87. Could drill it from deep and was the beginning of the move to respectability. So whats wrong with "The Rifleman"

Kstat
02-07-2006, 08:10 PM
Damn, %37 from the floor, %41 from the FT line and %10 from the arc?

Person had one crappy series.....

Pacesetter
02-07-2006, 08:14 PM
It's all about timing ... Chuck was a huge part of what got the Pacers off. He deserves his props.

I'll never forget what he did for our team, I'm pretty sure of that! :)

Anthem
02-07-2006, 08:24 PM
Oh, man. This is gonna be nasty.

Hide the women and children! :duck:

Hicks
02-07-2006, 08:28 PM
May as well paste the articles. It's a 4-part series.

Friday, February 03, 2006

The Pacers we love to hate: Part 1
Here at Basketbawful, we love the Indiana Pacers. To us, the Pacers are like that secret crush you harbored all throughout high school. She was smart, funny, and oh-so cute, but she always seemed to be dating somebody else. When she broke up with her boyfriend during Senior Year, you thought your chance had finally come. But she told you she needed some time to "rethink" things, and then she ended up dating that ******* with the mullet just because his parents had money and bought him a new car. *****. Anyway, she managed to break your heart a thousand different times in a thousand different ways, but you never stopped secretly watching her at night, usually perched in a tree across the street from her house, thinking "what if...?".

And that's how we feel about the Pacers. We watch, we hope, we cry when that hope is devoured in the whirling jaws of fate. But as much as we love the team, once in a while they pick up a player we can only love to hate. So begins the first installment of a four-part series in which each member of the Basketbawful staff will rail on the former or current Pacer we most despise who's not named Ron Artest.

He was slow, couldn't shoot, and I hated him
by Mr. P

Mark Jackson.

I hated him. Yeah, he's the 2nd all-time assist leader in the NBA, but I still hate him. He could run a slow, half court offense, but to me, there were other issues involved. He was slower than spit. I remember old clips of Mark trying to guard Isiah Thomas and Mark was out of the screenshot almost everytime. The one play that really sticks out in my mind was Isiah taking the ball from top of the key, blowing by Mark to get to the base line, then blowing by Mark again one his way back out to the top of the key, then blowing by him again for a layup. And during that whole sequence, it seemed like Mark was always somewhere behind Isiah. Mark Jackson was just slow...and slow point guards just dont seem like the "prototypical" point guard to me.

Another thing that just irked me about Mark was that "point to the hoop with my thumb" thing he did before every freethrow. I mean, c'mon, what the hell was the point of that? I could understand him doing it everytime if it really helped his freethrow shooting, but the guy only shot 77 percent for his career!

http://static.flickr.com/42/95039231_bae7053fbd.jpg
What the hell?!

But the biggest thing that made me hate him the most was that ****in' JACKSON JIGGLE. Watching him look at the crowd, pout his lips, lean back and shake his shoulders in celebration for scoring a whopping eight points a game made my hatred for him grow. God, I just wanted to clothesline him when he did it.

http://static.flickr.com/37/95039230_f437cb9602.jpg
Dick.

# posted by Basketbawful @ 1:24 PM

Hicks
02-07-2006, 08:29 PM
Friday, February 03, 2006

The Pacers we love to hate: Part 2

Our continuing series (http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2006/02/pacers-we-love-to-hate-part-1.html) continues as the Basketbawful (http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/) staff explains how you can love the sum of a team's parts while still hating some of those parts.

It was a good idea at the time
by The Statbuster

The Pacers (http://www.nba.com/pacers) were fresh off nearly being swept by the Knicks (http://www.nba.com/knicks) in the 1st round, allowing 108 ppg to one of the league's worst offensive teams. It was obvious the Pacers D had more holes than the plot of Big Momma's House 2 (http://www.bigmommashouse2.com/). Something had to be done.

Detlef Schrempf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detlef_Schrempf) was demanding more money every year, and was understandably frustrated with a Pacers post-season slump that would make Kevin Garnett (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_garnett/) cringe. Donnie Walsh (http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/walsh_statement_041120.html) popped two pimples at once and shipped Cocktail Schrempf off to Seattle (http://www.nba.com/sonics) for a name I quickly learned to despise...Derrick McKey (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/derrick_mckey/?nav=page).

On paper, McKey had plenty of upside. McKey was young, had posted consecutive 15 and 6 compaigns, great feel for the game, and played D...only if the Pacers knew his best years were already behind him.

<center>http://static.flickr.com/36/95066670_05213f0b4d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39453023@N00/95066670/)</center><center>This picture represents the only time McKey</center><center>ever actually played defense for the Pacers.</center>
Derrick McKey played with the intensity of Ned Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Flanders). His talent kept him in Larry Brown (http://www.nba.com/coachfile/larry_brown/?nav=page)'s favor, but Mckey would sleepwalk for minutes at a time. At one point, he averaged nearly 4 turnovers a game, an insanely high number for someone who doesn't score, rebound, or put the ball on the floor.

McKey enjoyed postseason success in the following years, despite his worst efforts. Fans had the pleasure of watching this drowsy peanut-head put up increasingly anemic numbers while the long-gone Detlef made trips to the All-Star Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_Association_All-Star_Game).

Derrick McKey will probably be best remembered by non-Pacermanics for forcing a late turnover on Michael Jordan (http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_summary.html) in the '98 playoffs, forcing a Game 7 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/news/1998/05/31/pacers_bulls_29/) against the Bulls (http://www.nba.com/bulls). The replay clearly showed McKey's "clutch stop" was Jordan tripping on McKey's foot. McKey once again reaps the benefits of simply being there.

And that head. That freakish head.

<center>http://static.flickr.com/38/95066671_b3a56352a2.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39453023@N00/95066671/)</center><center>It's freaky. Trust us.</center>
# (http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2006/02/pacers-we-love-to-hate-part-2.html) posted by Basketbawful @ 3:35 PM

Hicks
02-07-2006, 08:30 PM
Monday, February 06, 2006

The Pacers we love to hate: Part 3

Even die-hard basketball fans can fall in love. Whether it's with your wife, a long-term girlfriend, or just the Lieutenant Uhuru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhura)-shaped plush doll you bought at that last Star Trek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek) convention, most of us have experienced the burning desire to be a part of something bigger and better than ourselves.

It's that very same sense of hopeless longing that inspires us to follow a our favorite sports team, even in the worst of times. But, as with any love affair, the fan-to-team relationship can be a double-edged razor blade that slits the wrists of your hopes and dreams. Your girlfriend may be the bootylicious goddess of your darkest fantasies, but she might also hate your friends and throw your porn collection in the trash. So yeah, you can love someone or something without necessarily loving everything about them.

And so we continue to rip on (http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2006/02/pacers-we-love-to-hate-part-1.html) our most hated former Pacers (http://www.nba.com/pacers).

A legend in his own mind.
by The Almost Fan

Chuck Person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Person) was supposed to be a savior of sorts for the Indiana Pacers. After a relatively distinguished career at Auburn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auburn_University#Men.27s_basketball) (in which he averaged almost 20 points and 8 rebounds a game over four seasons), he was selected fourth overall in the first round of the 1986 NBA Draft (http://www.basketballreference.com/draft/draftyear.htm?yr=1986&lg=N). He came out gangbusters that first year, averaging 18.8 points and 8.3 rebounds a game, winning the 1987 Rookie of the Year award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Rookie_of_the_Year_Award), and leading the Pacers to a more-than-respectable 41-41 record...a 15-win improvement over the previous year's dismal 26-56 campaign. Considering that he was chosen after other more well-known college phenoms like Brad Daugherty (http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=DaughBr01) and Len Bias (who died less than 48 hours after getting drafted by the Celtics (http://www.nba.com/celtics)), he far exceeded anyone's expectations for him.

But here's the problem: he never got any better.

All things being equal, the Pacers should have improved drastically over the next few years, what with Person and the infusion of quality players like Reggie Miller (http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=MILLERE01), Detlef Schrempf (http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=SCHREDE01), and Rik Smits (http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=SMITSRI01). Instead, they just got progressively worse, going 38-44 and then 28-54 in the two seasons following Chuck's rookie year. The light began to shine during the 1989-90 season when the team finally racked up a winning recod (42-40), but they were promptly swept out of the playoffs by the eventual champion Detroit Pistons (http://www.nba.com/pistons). In that series, Person averaged 13.3 points per game while shooting 37 percent from the field, including a horrific 1-10 from beyond the arc (his supposed specialty). It wasn't just the Piston defense, either; he hit only 41 percent of his freethrows too.

http://static.flickr.com/19/96387809_7e558f96f4.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39453023@N00/96387809/)The team took a step back in 1990-91, winning only 41 games. But they snuck into the playoffs as the seventh seed and pushed a much better Celtics team to the limit, losing in the final seconds of game 5 by the score of 124-121. That series was Chuck Person at his absolute best. He led the team with 26 points per game, shooting 53 percent from the field and an amazing 54 percent from downtown. He even improved on his notoriously bad freethrow shooting, hitting 81 percent from the charity stripe. Every game, even the losses, seemed to feature some incredible feat by Person -- ridiculous fade-away rainbow shots, three-pointers in the face of tenacious defenders, improbable 35-foot bombs to beat the buzzer -- highlighted by Game 2 in which he scored 39 points and hit on a then-record seven three-pointers. Chuck abused Larry Bird (http://www.nba.com/history/players/bird_summary.html) throughout the series, talking trash and announcing to the media that he, Chuck Conners Person, was now the "greatest basketball player in the world." It took a truly legendary peformance from Bird, who returned from a concussion in Game 5, to hold the Pacers and Person off down the stretch.

Big things were expected from the Pacers in 1991-92, but they regressed again, going 40-42 and drawing the Celtics in the first round for the second year in a row. The Celtics were without Bird and starting point guard Dee Brown (http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=BROWNDE01), but the Pacers couldn't capitalize and got swept. The general consensus was that the Pacers were the better team but they either underachieved, or choked, or both. In truth, the Pacers biggest problem was Person, who averaged only 17 points on 40 percent shooting. He had guaranteed a victory before each game, but except for a 32-point outburst in Game 2, he simply didn't produce. What's more, his rebounding and defense were atrocious: he averaged only 3 rebounds while his Celtics' counterpart, Kevin Gamble (http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=GAMBLKE01), lit him up for 21 points and 6 boards a game.

By the time the final horn sounded in that series, Chuck had come to symbolize everything that was wrong with the Pacers. He didn't play defense. He didn't post up or take it strong to the hoop, which meant he rarely got to the line. And even when he did get fouled, it was usually a wash since he was a below-average freethrow shooter. His rebounding dropped dramatically after his rookie year, falling from 8.3 in 1986-87 to only 5.3 in 1991-92. Moreoever, he seldom showed the drive and effort it takes to succeed in the NBA. He didn't dive for loose balls, he didn't take charges, and many times he seemed to sleepwalk through entire games, unless he was facing a superstar like Bird, Charles Barkley (http://www.nba.com/history/players/barkley_summary.html), or Michael Jordan (http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_summary.html). Unless he had a compelling one-on-one matchup "worthy" of him, he just didn't seem to care.

To top it all off, Chuck like to talk. A lot. He talked junk to everybody: opposing players and coaches, referees, ball boys, even his own teammates sometimes. To make it even worse, he particularly delighted in doing this on the road, which usually fired up the other team and their crowd. And who knows how many games his lackadaisical attitude and overactive jawbone cost the Pacers over the years? Not surprisingly, Chuck was traded to Minnesota (http://www.nba.com/wolves) before the 1992-93 season. And while he still had a couple productive seasons left in him, that was pretty much the death knell of his caree. And the Pacers? The post-Person era has been kind to them. Within three years of his departure, the Pacers had back-to-back 50-win seasons and made it to the 7th game of the Eastern Conference Finals twice. They've been a top-tier team ever since, even though Ron Artest (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ron_artest/?nav=page) has tried to single-handedly destroy the franchise.

And so ends the Story of Chuck, my least favorite Pacer. He was best known as "The Rifleman," and he lived up to that nickname, leaving the NBA in pretty much the same way he entered it: as a man capable of incredible displays of long-distance shooting and little else. What a waste.
# (http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2006/02/pacers-we-love-to-hate-part-3.html) posted by Basketbawful @ 10:28 AM

Kegboy
02-07-2006, 09:04 PM
I hate Jax as much as the next man, but saying he couldn't shoot is idiotic.

As for Derek, we all know I worship Satan. :devil:

And, while I have no problems with Chuck the player, every game that I see Chuck sitting on his hands I have more problems with him as a coach.

So, for part 4, is Peck writing about Reggie? :sarcasm:

D-BONE
02-07-2006, 09:57 PM
I don't care what anybody says. Chuck was like the run-up to Reggie's glory years. No way Chuck kills us. Rookier of the year. Dr. Jack. Whatever. GO PACERS!!

stipo
02-07-2006, 10:36 PM
His rookie year was great.. I remember him at one time trying to guard MJ!
I was there the night he won the game against Milwaukee with that 40 footer or whatever it was. My friend was yelling "Chuck Person for President!" all the way to the car.
After that year he just wasn't the same in my eyes. All the talk went to his head and his game suffered in all ways but shooting as I remember it (I'll leave the ever present stat-looker-uppers to set me straight on that).

Edit: He was NOT even close to successful on defending MJ. I mention that only to show that he had a willingness to try anything to help the team and had a coach willing to let him in Dr.Jack.

Pig Nash
02-07-2006, 10:38 PM
You guys are just mad that the Steelers won the Super Bowl and want to bring Jay back down to Earth. Excelent. :evillaugh

D-BONE
02-07-2006, 10:38 PM
The Rifleman for Secretary of Defense!

himikey
02-08-2006, 07:25 AM
Why George McCloud wasn't blasted by this guy is a mystery to me.

stipo
02-08-2006, 07:30 AM
Why George McCloud wasn't blasted by this guy is a mystery to me.
OMG. George was the Bender of his day in the way he was constantly "built up" by many people. You kept waiting for him to "break out", but it never happened.

fwpacerfan
02-08-2006, 09:52 AM
The game 2 against the Celtics is one of my favorite Pacer memories. Chuck and Bird going back and forth was awesome. Chuck wasn't the reason the team didn't improve. The guy mentions Rik Smits but Smits took several years to develop into a solid player. Reggie was young and Detlef was solid. I think coaching was problem back then as well as youth.

Slick Pinkham
02-08-2006, 09:59 AM
Chuck was the 1st draft pick in a long time that we did not screw up.

He was a fun player to watch-- very entertaining. As a player he wasn't a whole lot more than a stand-still shooter, never drawing fouls and staying away from physical play.

He was certainly a good player though, and we as fans were not used to seeing good players in Pacers uniforms at that time.

He helped start us toward sheeding the "horrible franchise" and "laughingstock of the NBA" tags that most of you young-uns can't imagine even existed 20 years ago.

ChicagoJ
02-08-2006, 10:02 AM
I'm going to pretend I never read any of this, and continue basking in the Steelers' Super Bowl victory.

+ + + + + + +

Yes, Chuck was absolutely awful in that Pistons series. Many things to point to, but mostly Dick Versace was in the process of undermining a rising star.

Chuck, also, was very willing to set aside personal stats to make the team better. But nobody likes to acknowledge that when they chirp about the fact that his statistical peak was during his second/ third seasons, for a team that had four head coaches in one season and was an utter train wreck and Chuck had to carry them.

Oops, I vowed to get out of here.

I :love: :person:

D-BONE
02-08-2006, 11:49 AM
The game 2 against the Celtics is one of my favorite Pacer memories. Chuck and Bird going back and forth was awesome. Chuck wasn't the reason the team didn't improve. The guy mentions Rik Smits but Smits took several years to develop into a solid player. Reggie was young and Detlef was solid. I think coaching was problem back then as well as youth.


Right on! A great moment in Pacer playoff history. Who was the coach at this point? Bo Hill? Ol' memory's not so clear these days. This is the series of the final game Bird head smash on the floor only to triumphantly return in Willis Reed-esque fashion to do us in after the half, no? How can one series memory combine such pleasure and pain! P. S.-Bo Hill = Hopeless in Seattle.

D-BONE
02-08-2006, 11:51 AM
By the way, himikey, my B-day is next week. Think Pollard is available to entertain at the party? Waddya think his going rate is?

ChicagoJ
02-08-2006, 11:55 AM
Game 4 of the 1991 playoffs is still the best game, and loudest crowd, I've ever attended. With all the Larry Bird fans in the arena, you could cut the tension with a knife.

stipo
02-08-2006, 12:14 PM
Game 4 of the 1991 playoffs is still the best game, and loudest crowd, I've ever attended. With all the Larry Bird fans in the arena, you could cut the tension with a knife.
I remember sitting among the hordes of Celtic fans in those days also. Cheering for Chuck and booing Larry got a lot of disbelieving and angry looks from the crowds around us. Nothing was so sweet as to beat the Celtics at home in those days...nothing! To a Pacer fan those wins at that time made life so much easier:cloud9:. I would imagine it's much like the Detroit game saturday night was for younger fans (except a 1/3 of the arena were to rooting for the Pistons to make it truly comparable).

On a seperate note, we've been having some serious matters in our family that we've had to attend to the last few weeks, and it wasn't until yesterday that I realized that I had tickets to that Detroit game and forgot!!! uhhhhg!

ChicagoJ
02-08-2006, 12:23 PM
I was told to sit down during that game by the guy behind me wearing a green jersey. That was on the play where Chuck picked off the pass, ran a 1-on-3 "slow" break, pulled up, and shot a "3" over Larry. Timeout Celtics; Chuck ran a lap around the court beating on his own chest. Priceless memories.

Have I mentioned lately that I hate the green guys??

McClintic Sphere
02-08-2006, 12:26 PM
That's probably my favorite memory in Pacer's history Jay dog. Chuck schooled Reggie in the meaning of bravado.

himikey
02-08-2006, 12:29 PM
By the way, himikey, my B-day is next week. Think Pollard is available to entertain at the party? Waddya think his going rate is?

His schedule is wide open, but don't expect any balloon animals, his back is pretty fragile these days.

ChicagoJ
02-08-2006, 12:34 PM
That's probably my favorite memory in Pacer's history Jay dog. Chuck schooled Reggie in the meaning of bravado.

Yeah, Reggie would still spend two or three more years hiding behind Chuck and later Detlef. He had two nicknames then, "Hollywood" and "Mr. First Quarter". Its hard to believe that same kid actually turned into such a great clutch performer later in his career.

stipo
02-08-2006, 12:41 PM
Yeah, Reggie would still spend two or three more years hiding behind Chuck and later Detlef. He had two nicknames then, "Hollywood" and "Mr. First Quarter". Its hard to believe that same kid actually turned into such a great clutch performer later in his career.
Soooo true. I remember the first time I saw him shoot and hit a game winner for the Pacers, a home game against the Bucks I believe ( 18 footer, left of the key). I could not believe he that finally took a big shot, let alone hit it.

ChicagoJ
02-08-2006, 12:45 PM
I remember that too - he used the 'floater' didn't he? I was pissed that he didn't pass it, but happy that the shot went in.

Regardless, I preferred Chuck's 40-foot jump shot to beat Milwaukee at the buzzer as a rookie. Made it look like a forty-footer was just a routine shot.

:jawdrop:

stipo
02-08-2006, 12:56 PM
Yeah, I believe it was a floater, against pretty tight defense too I think.
The Chuck shot, as I mentioned in a previous post, was awe inspiring. Looked like a shot that he practiced every day. It wasn't one of those really high-arching-hail-mary shots either, he had alot of wrist and arm behind it!

naptownmenace
02-08-2006, 01:03 PM
How could Chuck kill a franchise that was already dead (or at least comatose) before he arrived?

McKey I can understand. I blame the loss in that Orlando series on him because he refused to shoot let alone rebound or defend anybody on a consistent basis. The way Reggie was shooting in that series, there's no reason why the Pacers shouldn't have been able to pull out the series win if McKey would've just played like he cared for more than 1 game. :pissed:

naptownmenace
02-08-2006, 01:04 PM
Yeah, I believe it was a floater, against pretty tight defense too I think.
The Chuck shot, as I mentioned in a previous post, was awe inspiring. Looked like a shot that he practiced every day. It wasn't one of those really high-arching-hail-mary shots either, he had alot of wrist and arm behind it!


You know who shoots almost exactly like Chuck? Ron Artest. Seriously they have the exact same form and follow through.

D-BONE
02-08-2006, 01:22 PM
I remember that too - he used the 'floater' didn't he? I was pissed that he didn't pass it, but happy that the shot went in.

Regardless, I preferred Chuck's 40-foot jump shot to beat Milwaukee at the buzzer as a rookie. Made it look like a forty-footer was just a routine shot.

:jawdrop:

Well, I'm sure Chuck considered 40 feet well within his range. Thus, quite routine for him.

ChicagoJ
02-08-2006, 02:29 PM
You know who shoots almost exactly like Chuck? Ron Artest. Seriously they have the exact same form and follow through.

And Ron Artest couldn't hit a jumper to save his life until Chuck started working with him during the offseason a couple years ago.

Coincidence? I think not.

By the way, you won't see either of them featured in a video of proper technique - their elbows are just not in the right place, but they certainly found something that worked for them.

Pacesetter
02-08-2006, 05:20 PM
And Ron Artest couldn't hit a jumper to save his life until Chuck started working with him during the offseason a couple years ago.

Good point!

Kstat
02-08-2006, 05:29 PM
The title of this thread should be changed to, "Did Chuck Person eat the Pacers?"

ChicagoJ
02-08-2006, 05:46 PM
But there's no debate on that one.

I love seeing Chuck stand next to Granger on the bench.

Granger is the same size (6'8", 230 lbs.) as Chuck as a rookie.

:lol:

D-BONE
02-08-2006, 05:49 PM
The title of this thread should be changed to, "Did Chuck Person eat the Pacers?"

Exactly. Send him to that "BIG" man FT shooting contest that was mentioned over on the 3 pt shootout contestants post.