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Will Galen
02-07-2006, 05:44 AM
Are the players pushed too hard?

The Pacers have been having injury problems the last couple years and they apparently don't know why. The evidence for that was moving long time trainer David Craig to the front office and hiring another trainer. That seems to me to have been at least a vote of no confidence in David, but it didn't make sense to me. The reason it didn't make sense is I've been around long enough to remember another time when the Pacers were having what seemed like more than their share of injury problems then they hired David and there weren't so many injuries any more.

Are the injury problems caused by the Pacers starting to push the players too hard in the off season and David wasn't down with it? Or was David pushing the players too hard and the team wasn't down with it? I think it's the former because the Pacers are sending coaches to workout players in the off season. Is it too much?

Lets go another direction.

Is JO injury prone, or is it other factors?

The length of an NBA season is 82 games, plus 8 preseason games, plus up to 28* playoff games, plus enumerable practices. Add to that the fact that people push themselves and others harder when they get close to the object of their affection, in this case an NBA championship. Now add to that, that this could go on season after season if the team is an elite team.

In JO's case there's more. He's been playing for this country just about every Summer. Plus he's gained weight to protect himself because the team constantly plays him out of position. He's a power forward often asked to play center.

There's more. JO being the highly motivated man he is, calls the other players and most show up for practices 2 weeks early.

So, is JO becoming injury prone from all this? That being, pushing and being pushed to hard.


Is Danny Granger being pushed to hard?

What I want to know is who's idea is it to play the players out of their optimum position so much? Walsh? Bird? Carlisle?

Sometimes circumstances are such that players have to play out of position. But the Pacers routinely use players out of their natural positions for long stretches of time. Does that contribute to their getting hurt?

Why did the Pacer brass decide to give Ron Artest a go at power forward last Summer? Using him there had to mean playing JO at center, so both would be playing out of their natural positions against bigger players.

And now what are they doing with Danny Gee? A natural small forward that even played some point guard in college.
http://golobos.collegesports.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/012404aaa.html

While still in college Danny was asked a series of questions. Note his answer to this one.

What position do you see yourself playing at the next level, and what do you think you need to improve on to get there? (Ricky D.)

DG: I think I would play a small forward, or even a shooting guard at the next level. I think I need to work on my ball handling skills and my outside jump shot, and I need to get stronger.
http://golobos.collegesports.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/020804aaa.html

Notice he didn't mention power forward, but the Pacers wanted him to learn that position from the get go. Why? We have an All Star at the PF position? They wanted Artest to learn the position too, so it seems to be they were committing themselves to using JO out of position. Otherwise why groom two small forwards for power forward?

A question was asked of Conrad Brunner last Summer, namely, Is Shooting Guard Really a Problem? In his answer he said, "Danny Granger almost certainly will play somewhere, whether it's as a backup at shooting guard or small forward or both."
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question_050725.html


The thing is, they didn't even try Danny at shooting guard, they just decided he could play PF as well as SF. It's these kind of decisions that make me suspect the Pacer brass are behind the Pacer's injuries. Namely Larry Bird.

I think Bird is an awesome judge of talent, but I also think he might be too opinionated. He's formed his opinions from playing at a championship level, and players that have reached his level typically think they know better than everyone else. Has Bird decided on an off season work load that is too much for some players?

So . . .

[ ] Is JO injury prone?
[ ] Is JO becoming injury prone?
[ ] Is JO's work Ethic too much for his body?
[ ] Is JO played out of position too much?
[ ] Do the Pacers push their players too hard?
[ ] Do the players push too hard?
[ ] Does JO weigh too much?
[ ] Are the Pacers using Danny Granger wrong?
[ ] Are the Pacers trying to hard to develop multi position players?
[ ] Do todays players work and play basketball, to hard, for to long, to also play out of position, for very long against bigger players.



* Four, seven game series, all going the distance.

D-BONE
02-07-2006, 06:18 AM
[X] Does JO weigh too much?
[X] Is JO played out of position too much?
[? ] Are the Pacers trying to hard to develop multi position players?

I don't know if one thing here proceeds all others,B-Ball's chicken or the egg quandry, but I think both the selected JO points factor in. Even more ironic there ,though, is that this whole multi-position thing is to a certain extent motivated by injury to begin with. I'm thinking of JO's case. I mean if we had more than one other healthy natural C option on our roster, maybe he doesn't play it as much. Personally, I think the added weight, whether a consequence of any of the other choices or not, is an important factor.

Unclebuck
02-07-2006, 08:00 AM
Certain players are just injury prone. Often times certain players get injured just because of the ay they play. Reggie Miller picked his spots when he went into the lane to grab a rebound, he was (smart enough) to not go in there every time. He also didn't drive to the basket every time. Age and numbr of years in the NBA impacts how injury prone a player is. Shaq didn't have any injuries his first few seasons, but now he is very injury prone.

I'm a huge believer that certaibn layers are just not made to play 82 games a season at starter minutes. No matter what they do or no matter what they don't do. J.O is one of those guys. I suggested two or three seasons ago that the Pacers should play him 20 games and then sit him 5 throughout the whole season. Even when he does play about 10 games in a row his back or other nagging type injuries crop up.

I'm going to make a prediction about Granger. I don't think he's going to be injury prone. He's so smooth, he has almost a perfect basketball type body, i don't think he'll be injury prone

fwpacerfan
02-07-2006, 08:36 AM
JO has definitely become injury prone since he signed his max deal. I think all of the factors mention are part of the issue. My fear is that he always be injury prone and the bigger question is do you want to keep a max contract player who can only play 75% of the time?

Unclebuck
02-07-2006, 08:53 AM
JO has definitely become injury prone since he signed his max deal. I think all of the factors mention are part of the issue. My fear is that he always be injury prone and the bigger question is do you want to keep a max contract player who can only play 75% of the time?


he was injury prone prior to signing his extension.

ChicagoJ
02-07-2006, 11:16 AM
JO wasn't really injury prone until that other injury-prone, always breaking down center was traded away.

:zip:

travmil
02-07-2006, 11:30 AM
JO wasn't really injury prone until that other injury-prone, always breaking down center was traded away.

:zip:


Ding ding! We have a winner! Before the Center Of Which We Do Not Speak was traded, teams couldn't double JO every time he touched the ball. Makes a huge difference, both in injuries and effectiveness.

able
02-07-2006, 11:35 AM
Let's start with the most important part of this discussion; please define "injury prone" because I am sure most people have different definitions for the word

I for one do not count either Jamaal or JO to be "injury prone" but to having A; a bout of bad luck and B; being "overworked" while having minor injuroes thus creating the far worse situations

Bender on the other hand is injuryprone, since he is now retiring he might have redefined that but still, 2 games followed by an injuryis definitely injury prone, certainly if that injury is re-curring.

However; JO's knee (ECF FInals) JO's shoulder last year are "freak incidents" and his current groin tear is a result of playing with a sprained ankle.
Jamaal's foot injury last year= freak, as is his current Biceps tear.
re-curring injuries (musclegroups always the same, or likewise injuries) would be a far greater worry, however the fact that several freak injuries occur makes the likelyood of re-occurence later on less (stats).

So if anyone can give a more defined definition of "injury prone" it might stop us talking about different themes in the same discussion.

ChicagoJ
02-07-2006, 11:37 AM
Not only that, but the guy who always breaks down generally drew the other team's most physical defender (even if he was just shooting fifteen foot jumpers) and JO took much less punishment.

I used to be strongly in the "JO can play center" camp. Not anymore. JO's a "4".

The number of players we have out of position will also be highlighted in the "Tale of two Cities" thread that's coming soon.

Unclebuck
02-07-2006, 11:48 AM
JO wasn't really injury prone until that other injury-prone, always breaking down center was traded away.

:zip:



I realize this is conventional wisdom, but I just don't buy the theory.

Give me an example where a more physical defender guarded J.O. that would have otherwise guarded Brad Miller.

PacerMan
02-07-2006, 12:20 PM
JO is no more injury prone than any other player. Or you or me. Probably a whole bunch less than you or me because of the outstanding physical condition he's in.
He gets hurt because he's our STAR player. Was our best rebounder. Is our post scorer. Guards the other teams bigs. Gets doubled the most.
Those ALL mean he's going to get WHACKED and HIT and SHOVED and KICKED more than anybody else on the team.
Pretty simple really.

As to the notion that guys are going to get hurt more if they 'play out of position', I don't buy that a bit either. It's BASKETBALL, not football. There's not THAT much difference between playing 3 and playing 4. Artest offsets height difference with great strength. He hurt his hands all the time because he's constantly slapping at the ball, and his man. Jermaine offsets strength with quickness. He's had some bad luck,that's all.

rabid
02-07-2006, 12:24 PM
He gets hurt because he's our STAR player. Was our best rebounder. Is our post scorer. Guards the other teams bigs. Gets doubled the most.
Those ALL mean he's going to get WHACKED and HIT and SHOVED and KICKED more than anybody else on the team.
Pretty simple really.

You could say the same for Duncan and Garnett, but generally they haven't had the same degree of injury problems.

So, no, it's not that simple really.

able
02-07-2006, 12:35 PM
UHhh rabid > Duncan might not be the "best" example: last year 66 games the year before 69 games

that is 16 & 13 games missed

ChicagoJ
02-07-2006, 12:38 PM
I realize this is conventional wisdom, but I just don't buy the theory.

Give me an example where a more physical defender guarded J.O. that would have otherwise guarded Brad Miller.

I'm not sure I understand the question.

When we had both players, the opponent's center spent significant amounts of the game matched up with Brad, at either end of the court.

You don't even have to guard your guy Foster to keep him from scoring - heck our opponents WANT him to have the ball. And with Foster around, he sure doesn't absorb any of the phsical beating to help JO. He just runs really really fast and chases down rebounds.

Bball
02-07-2006, 12:43 PM
Let's start with the most important part of this discussion; please define "injury prone" because I am sure most people have different definitions for the word



So if anyone can give a more defined definition of "injury prone" it might stop us talking about different themes in the same discussion.

I went to the dictionary and looked up "injury prone" and there was Jamaal's picture.

:shrug:

-Bball

Kstat
02-07-2006, 12:45 PM
*sigh* I didnt want to get involved in this, but oh well....

The bit about power forwards playing center is absoolutely true.

Two factors in this:

1. Being the lone true big man on the floor makes it twice as easy to zero in on JO in the paint defensively. Without another center to worry about, JO gets the other team's full attention. It's twice as easy to be physical with him.

2. Playing centers instead of PFs has consequences. Let's say the average center is 260lbs, and the average PF is 240. Not a big difference for one game, but multiply that by 82. that's 1,640 cumulative lbs of extra force per season. It's a wear-down effect.

Jamaal's case is obviously different, but in JO's i'm %100 certain it has something to do with playing ina position that he's not physically capable of enduring.

The last season he played relatively healthy was 2004, and he had foster to play center, and al harrington and ron artest to take a lot of the inside scoring burden away.

Unclebuck
02-07-2006, 01:13 PM
I'm not sure I understand the question.

When we had both players, the opponent's center spent significant amounts of the game matched up with Brad, at either end of the court.

You don't even have to guard your guy Foster to keep him from scoring - heck our opponents WANT him to have the ball. And with Foster around, he sure doesn't absorb any of the phsical beating to help JO. He just runs really really fast and chases down rebounds.



Let's look at two key competitors at the time. The Nets and the Pistons.

The Nets always defended J.O with Kenyan Martin. They never put their center on him. They did it when Brad was here and they did it when Brad was gone

The Pistons with rare exceptions defended J.O with Cliff Robinson back in the day. Ben guarded Brad and then Ben guarded Jeff.

So for those two teams it made no difference whether Brad was on the game or Jeff they defended J.O with the same guy.


As far as double teams - the Nets and Pistons rarely double teamed J.O, but when other teams did double J.O. they usually did so with their point guard

Teams may not guard Jeff during the offise, but as soon as the ball goes up they sure find him quick or they pay for it dearly. And since it is hard to stay with jeff sanyay, teams don't leave Jeff all alone under the basket.

travmil
02-07-2006, 01:43 PM
You could say the same for Duncan and Garnett, but generally they haven't had the same degree of injury problems.

So, no, it's not that simple really.

Yes it is. Both of those guys are outstanding passers. JO is not. He takes the shot almost every time he touches the ball. Garnett and TD pass just as much as they shoot. It balances out IMO.