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View Full Version : Let's ask the hard question about game tempo and JO.



Los Angeles
02-04-2006, 10:48 PM
Is the JO low-post method the key to Pacers winning in the future or is it the key to losing?

I'm starting to think that it is the key to losing.

I think the Pacers new look offense is the way of the future, regardless of who is available to play.

Anyone catch what was going on offensively for the Pacers during the Pistons third quarter run? For maybe two minutes, the Pacers slowed it down, sent the ball to Harrison and stood around. I almost vomited. It looked just like the JO Pacers. Rick saw what was going on, called time, and got them to speed it up and move around again. The game could have been over for us right there, but we got it back and one a good game.

If I've said it once, I've said it 1,000,000 times: JO is teaching Harrison. This is the best we can do for him right now, but it is not good. The Pacers need someone else to teach him. And frankly, we need someone to come in and teach JO to play THIS way, because this is our future.



At least I hope so.

Bball
02-04-2006, 11:02 PM
Somebody will be sure to come and tell you how wrong you are and ill prepared to judge such things.

It won't be me, though. I'm right there with everything you said.

All I want to know is if in the end JO is a symptom of the problem or the problem itself?

-Bball

indytoad
02-04-2006, 11:04 PM
Hasn't JO previously indicated that he would prefer to play in a more uptempo scheme? Now I know saying something and actually doing it is different, but...

IndyToad
Baseline

sweabs
02-04-2006, 11:06 PM
Hasn't JO previously indicated that he would prefer to play in a more uptempo scheme? Now I know saying something and actually doing it is different, but...

IndyToad
Baseline

He can say that all he wants. The fact is, he's just not suited to playing in that style of offense. When we first acquired him - sure! But at this point, I don't see that working well.

Will Galen
02-04-2006, 11:07 PM
I've thought this before. JO should not be the Pacer's first option. He should play exactly like Granger. Play defense, rebound, and take shots of opportunity. I think if he did that he would still average 18 and 15 and the Pacers would be much better off.

Anthem
02-04-2006, 11:07 PM
I still haven't figured out if it's the player or the coach. I keep thinking it's the coach.

Los Angeles
02-04-2006, 11:07 PM
My vote is symptom.

This isn't the JO we saw in the Isiah years. I think that between Rick and the strength and conditioning coaches we created a monster in JO. He's an amazing player, I just hope he hasn't forgotten his young self.

BTW, I don't think anyone will call me names because I post ideas without filling my posts full of knee-jerk/hateful remarks.

Will Galen
02-04-2006, 11:10 PM
The problem with JO and Jackson is when they get the ball they do several fakes before they decide to do something with the ball. I think they should go into their move immediately.

They should be limited to one fake or no fake, their option.

sweabs
02-04-2006, 11:13 PM
The problem with JO and Jackson is when they get the ball they do several fakes before they decide to do something with the ball. I think they should go into their move immediately.

They should be limited to one fake or no fake, their option.

You're right. All fakes do is stagnate the offense, and allow the defense to set-up. Why do we want to help the defense out?

Arcadian
02-04-2006, 11:22 PM
It's the coaching.

It amazes me on on hand people call Rick a micro-manager and on the other think that JO somehow breaks the plays by posting up.

That is a contridiction and Rand says there is no such thing.

By the way I agree with the primise that the offense shouldn't feature JO in as much iso.

Bball
02-04-2006, 11:28 PM
It's the coaching.

It amazes me on on hand people call Rick a micro-manager and on the other think that JO somehow breaks the plays by posting up.

.

Yes and no... Here's the thing I keep coming back to: Getting the ball into JO is one thing BUT is JO making the decisions the coaches would hope he'd make as far as getting the ball back out?

-Bball

Bball
02-04-2006, 11:31 PM
I still haven't figured out if it's the player or the coach. I keep thinking it's the coach.

Where's Mike Wells when we need him?

I guess on one hand he hasn't been telling us what a mean-spirited prima donna JO is behind closed doors... So that is good...

But then he hasn't been telling us what a hard working, consummate team player behind the scenes that JO is either.

Hmmmmm

-Bball

Anthem
02-04-2006, 11:35 PM
This isn't the JO we saw in the Isiah years. I think that between Rick and the strength and conditioning coaches we created a monster in JO. He's an amazing player, I just hope he hasn't forgotten his young self.
Agreed.

Arcadian
02-04-2006, 11:37 PM
Yes and no... Here's the thing I keep coming back to: Getting the ball into JO is one thing BUT is JO making the decisions the coaches would hope he'd make as far as getting the ball back out?

-Bball

If Jo weren't doing what Rick wanted, I'd have to say Rick was crazy for going to JO so much. I mean after 3 or so years of it Rick has got to know what is going to happen.

It is clear to me that at least with how the team was constructed Rick believed in going to JO because he did it so often.

MagicRat
02-04-2006, 11:41 PM
There was a very brief discussion on "Full Court Press" recently between Ian Eagle and Mitch Lawrence about whether or not JO was a number 1 on a championship caliber team and they both agreed that he was not, FWIW.

Los Angeles
02-04-2006, 11:50 PM
There was a very brief discussion on "Full Court Press" recently between Ian Eagle and Mitch Lawrence about whether or not JO was a number 1 on a championship caliber team and they both agreed that he was not, FWIW.
Oh, brother.

In the dawning Pistons team-ball era, does it even matter who is #1?

JO was #1 on a championship caliber team two years ago, so what are they talking about? Hunches? Perception? Gut feeling?

Or did they have any true analysis to back it up?

Bball
02-04-2006, 11:50 PM
If Jo weren't doing what Rick wanted, I'd have to say Rick was crazy for going to JO so much. I mean after 3 or so years of it Rick has got to know what is going to happen.

It is clear to me that at least with how the team was constructed Rick believed in going to JO because he did it so often.

If this was college ball I'd agree with you. If we were talking about some low dough FA vagabond or 2nd rounder, I'd agree with you.

But we are talking about the 120,000,000.00 face of the franchise. The horse that pulls the cart. I'm not sure Carlisle would feel comfortable going away from him as long as there was some effectiveness there.

And let us not forget that JO barely, if at all, ever blocks out... and on the rare occassion he sets a screen he is 'rolling' out of it so quick that it is never an effective screen. Carlisle can't be happy with those kind of things either yet he seems to allow them to continue.

-Bball

Arcadian
02-05-2006, 12:04 AM
If this was college ball I'd agree with you. If we were talking about some low dough FA vagabond or 2nd rounder, I'd agree with you.

But we are talking about the 120,000,000.00 face of the franchise. The horse that pulls the cart. I'm not sure Carlisle would feel comfortable going away from him as long as there was some effectiveness there.

And let us not forget that JO barely, if at all, ever blocks out... and on the rare occassion he sets a screen he is 'rolling' out of it so quick that it is never an effective screen. Carlisle can't be happy with those kind of things either yet he seems to allow them to continue.

-Bball

Even if I agreed with that primise it would still be a coaching issue. But Rick doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who calls plays to make players happy regardless of what they are paid.

Unclebuck
02-05-2006, 12:14 AM
I wasn't sure how I wanted to respond to this thread.

In my game report post tonight I said the reason why the Pacers are rebopunding so well now is because J.O is out.

However I don't believe the Pacers will go anywhere in the playoffs without a a postup player who can score down low, but is J.O that guy who can do that, I don't know

Bball
02-05-2006, 12:15 AM
I've thought this before. JO should not be the Pacer's first option. He should play exactly like Granger. Play defense, rebound, and take shots of opportunity. I think if he did that he would still average 18 and 15 and the Pacers would be much better off.

I've said something similar altho your putting the name 'Granger' on it puts it in focus.

I'd be all for that.

BUT Granger blocks out and does lots of intangibles that JO really doesn't do. Then again, if he wasn't worried about his scoring and could focus on those intangibles it could lead to some changes.

I asked somewhere else tho...
Can you pay 1st violin money to the "second fiddle"?

Does JO 'have' to be the centerpiece due to his salary?

-Bball

Bball
02-05-2006, 12:19 AM
I wasn't sure how I wanted to respond to this thread.

In my game report post tonight I said the reason why the Pacers are rebopunding so well now is because J.O is out.

However I don't believe the Pacers will go anywhere in the playoffs without a a postup player who can score down low, but is J.O that guy who can do that, I don't know

Has anyone compared Harrison's FG percentage with JO's for the season?

I bet Pollard's might even be higher...

So your question still stands:
Is JO a postup player who can score down low?

-Bball

MagicRat
02-05-2006, 12:21 AM
Oh, brother.

In the dawning Pistons team-ball era, does it even matter who is #1?

JO was #1 on a championship caliber team two years ago, so what are they talking about? Hunches? Perception? Gut feeling?

Or did they have any true analysis to back it up?

I don't remember the exact conversation, but the gist of it was very similar to the last bit of the SI article UB posted:

Most important, the franchise will have to decide whether O'Neal is a franchise player or just a talented opening act who needs a headliner. Many around the league suspect the latter.

As I said, it was brief, so they didn't throw out elaborate stats or anything. I think they were just talking as a couple of guys who cover the NBA who's opinions on JO fall into the "latter" category.

Bball
02-05-2006, 12:21 AM
Harrison: .481
Pollard: .521
Foster: .576 :eek:
JO: .469

That is from Pacers.com and what would appear to be 44 games this season.

-BBall

Bball
02-05-2006, 12:31 AM
I'm going to throw a bone out to the wolves for discussion:
What if the Pacers had decided to annoint Al Harrington as the (next) 'face of the franchise'?

Make him the 'heir apparent' guy way back when and groom him. Would he have fit and filled the JO role?

IOW, did we already have someone just as capable as JO already on the roster?

-BBall

BlueNGold
02-05-2006, 12:43 AM
It is obvious that JO bogs down the offense with his post up game. He may hit a decent percentage, but most shots are very well defended and this results in the rest of the team not getting engaged in the offense. All you have to do is look at the box score. Our leading scorer is on the bench, yet we have no problem scoring.

Now, JO needs to post up, but mainly when he has a distinct advantage. If he faces a tough post defender, it will usually be a bigger player who he could take off the dribble or take out 12 feet for jumpers and allow Harrison to post up. If it is a player who can defend the post and the floor, so what. Mayber JO needs to score 15 points that game and allow other players to contribute. If JO is unable to play these roles, he must go!

BlueNGold
02-05-2006, 12:45 AM
I'm going to throw a bone out to the wolves for discussion:
What if the Pacers had decided to annoint Al Harrington as the (next) 'face of the franchise'?

Make him the 'heir apparent' guy way back when and groom him. Would he have fit and filled the JO role?

IOW, did we already have someone just as capable as JO already on the roster?

-BBall
Al is not nearly as good as JO. I like Al, but if he is the face of the franchise, we will not make the playoffs....kinda like the Hawks.

SoupIsGood
02-05-2006, 12:50 AM
I'm going to throw a bone out to the wolves for discussion:
What if the Pacers had decided to annoint Al Harrington as the (next) 'face of the franchise'?

Make him the 'heir apparent' guy way back when and groom him. Would he have fit and filled the JO role?

IOW, did we already have someone just as capable as JO already on the roster?

-BBall

Nope.

Moses
02-05-2006, 12:51 AM
I feel it's the playcalling by Carlisle.

I like JO on the post every 3-4 plays but we need to change it up. We can't go down the low post on every single play. There need to be plays where JO doesn't even touch the ball so he can get in position for the offensive rebound/tip in. I have no problem with us feeding the ball down to JO when it's a 1 on 1 matchup and he isn't getting any double teams because he is an all-star power foward and can beat almost any other player 1 on 1 but when the double teams are thrown at him we need to pass the ball. If they double him all night, then we pass it around all night. It's all up to Carlisle on how we use JO..Hopefully he changes what he has been doing with him. JO is an extremely necessary component if we hope to do well in the playoffs..despite popular belief.

SoupIsGood
02-05-2006, 12:51 AM
Harrison: .481
Pollard: .521
Foster: .576 :eek:
JO: .469

That is from Pacers.com and what would appear to be 44 games this season.

-BBall

Why are we looking at these? It's late and I've missed a connection, although I suspect Foster's % is from his sudden abilty to hit layups.

Moses
02-05-2006, 12:55 AM
Harrison: .481
Pollard: .521
Foster: .576 :eek:
JO: .469

That is from Pacers.com and what would appear to be 44 games this season.

-BBall
Now lets look at those numbers when JO isn't double teamed and is right under the basket like Harrison, Foster, and Pollard are. 47% from the field isn't bad when you are frequently double teamed and are a primary point in the offense...I'll take that to the Pacers 39% total tonight and for the past 20 games.

Hicks
02-05-2006, 12:56 AM
JO needs to do two things to fit in with this offense:

Be more willing to pass QUICKLY when he has the ball, and if he's going to go for the score, do so without pounding the ball first. When he's quick to react, he blends with this style.

Gamble
02-05-2006, 01:46 AM
Somebody will be sure to come and tell you how wrong you are and ill prepared to judge such things.

It won't be me, though. I'm right there with everything you said.

All I want to know is if in the end JO is a symptom of the problem or the problem itself?

-Bball

I would say its not just JO but also Tinsley among others.
Tinsley is good enough to create for others and hence ball movement
isn't as necessary. But leading to the problem is the create your
own shot method that works in theory with RC spread offense.
Leaving out 4 others on the offense always seem to me a bad idea
but what the heck do i know.

rm1369
02-05-2006, 02:13 AM
I guess I don't see the stat whoring prima-donna that some see. I see a player that has been miscast by Rick (or TBTP) as a power player, and that is not what he is suited for. There is no doubt there are flaws in JOs game. The real problem is that most of those flaws are highlited by playing the style he has been asked to play. He obviously prefers the mid range jumper to banging down low. Before he gained the weight he also could put the ball on the floor and get to the rim on many 4s. So instead of running an offence that highlighted those areas of his game we feed him in the low post like he's shaq. With a coach that calls plays on nearly every posession, who do you think wants to play that tempo? Does anyone really believe that JO would rather bang for tough points in the paint all game than shoot open mid range jumpers?

JO would be much better playing at 25lbs lighter in a team oriented offence that did not feature him as option 1 and option 2. I think alot of his injuries can be atributed to gaining weight to play the slow physcial game Rick has seemed to prefer. While he is far from being Webber or Divac he is 3 times the passer he was two years ago. I see no reason we can not and should not play the way we have been playing once JO is in the lineup. He just adds another element to it. He puts more pressure on the D than Scott or Jeff because he can actually make the mid range jumper that is available to them. And on D he can erase more mistakes than either of them.

I can understand the argument that he is not worth the money he is paid and I'd trade him and JT for KG in a second. But I do not for one second believe we have a better team with him off the court. Not if he is used correctly - that's Ricks job. Lets hope he has figured that out.

Los Angeles
02-05-2006, 02:21 AM
Good post, rm1369. Post more often, yo. :)

rm1369
02-05-2006, 02:33 AM
Good post, rm1369. Post more often, yo. :)

Thanks, I'm hoping to.

CableKC
02-05-2006, 03:47 AM
Just looking on the surface of the 2005-2006 teams......alot of teams have improved their defense ( like the Grizzlies and the Twolves )....but it has cost them any type of high-powered offense.

I guess the question is....are we able to run this type of high-tempo offense while keeping the same type of defensive pressure?

To add to it.....is it possible to even run this type of high-tempo offense with JONeal in the mix ( whether he is the 1st option or not )?

Unclebuck
02-05-2006, 08:07 AM
Harrison: .481
Pollard: .521
Foster: .576 :eek:
JO: .469

That is from Pacers.com and what would appear to be 44 games this season.

-BBall


You realize that is not really a fair comparison. Sorta like comparing Dale Davis % with Rik Smits. It just isn't fair. If you notice every season big guys lead the league in FG%, does that mean they are better shooters than guards, no.

J_2_Da_IzzO
02-05-2006, 09:20 AM
I think right now with this team as it is right now and with Peja maybe Jermaines post up play is needed more then ever.

Teams more often then not double Jermaine but now I dont think they can do that which will result in JO having it one on one or as we have seen this year he can kick it out to other teammates.

I feel that with JOs post play, Pejas outside threat, Grangers hustle play, Harrison starting to use his body well and Jax being 3rd option we have a team that has threats from everywhere. Especially with Fred coming off the bench to spark it up if we are in a sticky situation this team can be as good as was expected of them at the beginning of the season.

Moses
02-06-2006, 12:40 PM
I think right now with this team as it is right now and with Peja maybe Jermaines post up play is needed more then ever.

Teams more often then not double Jermaine but now I dont think they can do that which will result in JO having it one on one or as we have seen this year he can kick it out to other teammates.

I feel that with JOs post play, Pejas outside threat, Grangers hustle play, Harrison starting to use his body well and Jax being 3rd option we have a team that has threats from everywhere. Especially with Fred coming off the bench to spark it up if we are in a sticky situation this team can be as good as was expected of them at the beginning of the season.
I just realized that nobody would be able to double JO so long as he keeps his eyes open if he does. Alot of the times you get the center coming across to help on the double team or the small foward drops down and doubles JO but if Harrison continues his decent low post play (IE Dunking at the rim) and Peja/Granger continue to hit their shots and prove their demeanor as an outside threat, I feel that this team could go far. It's all on Jermaine though because he's going to have to find the open man when he faces double teams or alot of pressure.

If Jermaine is unable to adapt to a style of offense that revolves around alot of ball movement then I think we need to move him for a passing big man of some sort.

beast23
02-06-2006, 01:13 PM
I just realized that nobody would be able to double JO so long as he keeps his eyes open if he does. Alot of the times you get the center coming across to help on the double team or the small foward drops down and doubles JO but if Harrison continues his decent low post play (IE Dunking at the rim) and Peja/Granger continue to hit their shots and prove their demeanor as an outside threat, I feel that this team could go far. It's all on Jermaine though because he's going to have to find the open man when he faces double teams or alot of pressure.

If Jermaine is unable to adapt to a style of offense that revolves around alot of ball movement then I think we need to move him for a passing big man of some sort.I agree with this, and your explanation feeds exactly what Hicks has stated. JO must be more willing to QUICKLY pass out of double teams and should spend less time trying to back his man down with dribbling.

Of course, if JO happens to also improve his passing skills, then it will open up many more opportunities in the offense, as opposed to JO primarily passing the ball back out to the guard that fed it inside to him.

I think another major contribution that JO can make is to become a better fundamental player. He's shown great diligence in improving his FT shotting percentage. I see no reason why he could not also improve his ability to block out and to set screens.

Jermaniac
02-06-2006, 01:39 PM
Harrison: .481
Pollard: .521
Foster: .576 :eek:
JO: .469

That is from Pacers.com and what would appear to be 44 games this season.

-BBallHey Hermy how are you doing? You okay?

How about you look at the shots Jermaine O'Neal puts up and the defense JO faces. Think about it, let Harrison put up 15-20 shots a game and see how well he shoots and put 2 defenders on him while he is shooting. We will see how well those guys shoot then.

sweabs
02-06-2006, 01:42 PM
Hey Hermy how are you doing? You okay?

How about you look at the shots Jermaine O'Neal puts up and the defense JO faces. Think about it, let Harrison put up 15-20 shots a game and see how well he shoots and put 2 defenders on him while he is shooting. We will see how well those guys shoot then.

The only problem is, should Jermaine be taking those shots with 2-3 defenders on him, or passing to one of the open men standing around the 3pt arc?

Jermaniac
02-06-2006, 01:43 PM
Rick Carlisle calls the plays Jermaine follows them. Talk to Carlisle.

Los Angeles
02-06-2006, 01:56 PM
The only problem is, should Jermaine be taking those shots with 2-3 defenders on him, or passing to one of the open men standing around the 3pt arc?
:banghead:

SWING AND A MISS!

Those guys should NOT be standing around the 3-pt arc! They should be in motion, cutting to the basket or popping out. If they are just standing around, they should get along great with the bench.

Further, passing the ball should have nothing to do with double teams, and everything to do with position. Why does JO pound the ball so much? because he receives the ball way out at 12-15 feet, and then tries to back his man down to get position. If he gave a little more hustle back, he would get better position from the start. He would also have more options (lets call them "lanes" even though it's not quite the same) to feed the ball back out or just hand off the ball to a cutting teammate, and he would have higher percentage shots to boot.

sweabs
02-06-2006, 02:07 PM
:banghead:

SWING AND A MISS!

Those guys should NOT be standing around the 3-pt arc! They should be in motion, cutting to the basket or popping out. If they are just standing around, they should get along great with the bench.

Exactly - which goes back to what Jermaniac said: it's up to Rick to make that happen. He's the one implementing the offense we saw Saturday night, and contrastingly, the offense we saw at the start of the season. He makes the calls. As I said in my swing and a miss, Jermaine really isn't left with many choices when he's playing.

SWING AND A HIT!

:woot:

rexnom
02-06-2006, 02:11 PM
:banghead:

SWING AND A MISS!

Those guys should NOT be standing around the 3-pt arc! They should be in motion, cutting to the basket or popping out. If they are just standing around, they should get along great with the bench.

Further, passing the ball should have nothing to do with double teams, and everything to do with position. Why does JO pound the ball so much? because he receives the ball way out at 12-15 feet, and then tries to back his man down to get position. If he gave a little more hustle back, he would get better position from the start. He would also have more options (lets call them "lanes" even though it's not quite the same) to feed the ball back out or just hand off the ball to a cutting teammate, and he would have higher percentage shots to boot.

I think his point was that J.O. should take on double teams less and find the open man more. The open man could be cutting inside or finding space around the arc. Obviously no one is for players just standing on the three point line and doing nothing.

Los Angeles
02-06-2006, 02:19 PM
I think his point was that J.O. should take on double teams less and find the open man more. The open man could be cutting inside or finding space around the arc. Obviously no one is for players just standing on the three point line and doing nothing.
Agreed. but during 03/04, it was clear that standing on the line and doing nothing was a part of the game plan. And I'm starting to think that the only reason it worked was the exceptional defensive play of Artest. Take away his stopping ability, and this game plan is a losing game plan, which brings us right back to my first post. That same offense was tried last year and this year. It doesn't work because it doesn't score enough points (for lack of a better way to put it).

Arcadian
02-06-2006, 02:31 PM
The lack of cutters is also an indication that it is a play calling issue.

I've said this other times but I think the team was designed towin defensively and the iso post offense was there to cut down on turn overs and quick shots.

rexnom
02-06-2006, 02:31 PM
Agreed. but during 03/04, it was clear that standing on the line and doing nothing was a part of the game plan. And I'm starting to think that the only reason it worked was the exceptional defensive play of Artest. Take away his stopping ability, and this game plan is a losing game plan, which brings us right back to my first post. That same offense was tried last year and this year. It doesn't work because it doesn't score enough points (for lack of a better way to put it).

Make sense...I think that J.O. can still be integrated in a faster paced Pacers offense though. With lots of ball movement and good shots (i.e. we work to find a man open). Rick Carlisle is a master schemer of defense and offense, I think he'll figure this out and how exactly to do it.

Bball
02-06-2006, 02:40 PM
Chicken or the egg...
Why should players move/cut once JO gets the ball unless JO starts passing? It's a waste of time and effort.

And if you are standing wide open at the arc and JO doesn't get you the ball then why should anyone think he'll pass it if you move?

-Bball

Arcadian
02-06-2006, 02:47 PM
If players aren't cutting because they don't think they won't get the ball they should be out of here. That is like a reciever not finishing his route.

However I have never seen anything to suggest that players are supposed to cut in Rick's offense. I think they are supposed to pass to the post and start getting back on defense.

Shamboubou
02-06-2006, 03:43 PM
JO is a double edged sword in this offense. On one side he can take the ball from the post and make pretty good shots. As long as JO is down low by the basket he is very affective. When he is 12-15 ft. out and has to put the ball on the floor he isn't good.

The other side is that JO does get double teamed when he is in the post. He HAS to learn to pass the ball out of the double team. Some say people should be cutting, I say he needs to pass the ball out to the open man and swing the ball for an open 3. If there is one thing we have on this team right now its people that can hit an open jumper. Sars, Peja, Granger, Freddie, Johnson, and sometimes Jackson.

I do like to watch the team much more though when JO isn't playing. Team basketball is much more fun than feed the star.

indygeezer
02-06-2006, 04:08 PM
Anytime I sit down and really reflect on JO's game I think of Karl Malone and what should be. JO reminds me of Malone in many ways but without the sharp elbows, the mean streak, the ablity to put the ball on the floor, or the smarts.
I've really thought that he could turn into the Malone "clone" but I don't think so now. He just doesn't have it in him.


But as currently constructed this team can only go as far as he takes them.

Slick Pinkham
02-06-2006, 04:15 PM
A team that relies on ball movement, spacing the floor, and excellent shooters SHOULD benefit tremendously by having a post player that commands a double team on a regular basis.

That is, IF he can pass the ball out of the double team to find an open teammate in the initial or second pass.

It's up to JO to develop that skill if we want to use this type of offense when he is healthy, instead of the stand-around-and-watch-Jermaine-force-one-up offense.

Bball
02-06-2006, 04:34 PM
Maybe it's just me.... but even if we're going to continue the JO Isoball game when he's in then he's going to have to get a WHOLE lot better at it.

He can't allow himself to be taken out of the game mentally, and he is going to have to not force shots and especially not settle for fade-aways.

IOW- I'm not sold JO is 'right' for the Isoball game in the first place (or ever will be). I'd call it a failure and misjudgement and admit he's not going to get 'there' and so we have to look at using him differently. That's part of the problem right there (that we continue to use and pretend he's something he is not).

-BBall

D-BONE
02-06-2006, 04:42 PM
Some questions/comments that reading this thread has spurred:

1) Is JO really BAD at putting the ball on the floor from 12 to 15 feet in all scenarios? What happened to all the swooping finger-rolls and hooks from earlier in his career? OK, mabye that's from 12 ft on in but you get the idea.

2) Does JO not have a solid mid-range shooting game? If he does (I think so anyway), that's another weapon that could be exploited in a more up-tempo, open offense.

3) Has JO always been poor at blocking out or might that have to do with an erosion of lateral, foot quickness as he's bulked up?

Just some thoughts. I don't really know the answer here, but I think if JO could commit to what the team does offensively in his absence (and this assumes the coaching staff does, too) and worked on the passing aspect and maybe dropping a little weight in the offseason, he'd be great and he'd still have post-up ability anyway. Just my two cents. If, on the other hand, he doesn't want to do that, well, then there's a wee problem brewing.

DeS
02-06-2006, 04:47 PM
Chicken or the egg...
Why should players move/cut once JO gets the ball unless JO starts passing? It's a waste of time and effort.

And if you are standing wide open at the arc and JO doesn't get you the ball then why should anyone think he'll pass it if you move?

IMO this isn't as simple as chicken/egg question (egg was first) ;) But I agree (mostly). On the other hand it would be not professional for the players to stand around only because somone is rarely passing out.
It will take a time to see what we want to, even if RC will recreate his offensive schemes. Imho most likely RC will leave the things as is - I mean he will upgrade starters with Peja (slightely modifying offense) and will heavily rely on our bench (best in the league ;) )

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-06-2006, 06:28 PM
The problem with JO and Jackson is when they get the ball they do several fakes before they decide to do something with the ball. I think they should go into their move immediately.

They should be limited to one fake or no fake, their option.

Awesome post

As simple as it seems I see this as one of the biggest problems in our offense. They don't just do several fakes, they do 4 or 5, and the defender hardly ever bites on either of their fakes. In other words, theyre just not good at faking out their opponents. They need to catch the ball and make their move as soon as they catch it.

Especially JO. That is how he played 2 seasons agao when he was a legitimate MVP candidate He succeeds through speed and finese, not power. Im not sure if he can still do this (because of the added weight as others have mentioned). Also, I think he goes away from the basket too often when he should go towards it. However, by the time he is done doing his little quick step fake 4 or 5 times, hes already destroyed the option of going to the rim because either hes being double teamed, or his defender has had way too much time to get good positioning.

Im glad he has developed the mid range jumper, but he settles for this too often. In my opinion he should only take this shot when he's wide open, becaus he usually misses it under pressure.

PacerMan
02-06-2006, 08:49 PM
Al is not nearly as good as JO. I like Al, but if he is the face of the franchise, we will not make the playoffs....kinda like the Hawks.

You should go back and check our record during the extended time that Jermaine was out and AL filled his spot. ;)

But I'm in the 'it's silly to think we'd be better without Jermaine'.

He's a sharp young man. He'll fit in. And love it. If Rick requires it.

pizza guy
02-06-2006, 11:39 PM
In JO's first four years as a Pacer, he average 77 games played a year. Since then, he has added weight and subtracted games played. Obviously, last year's suspensions contributed, but only 20 of the 38 games he missed. And again this year, JO has missed playing time because of injuries. Another interesting fact; in those first four years, JO averaged 10 rebounds per game, and the last two have both been down a little, mostly on the offensive end.

Coincidence?

What I would like to see is simple. JO needs to drop some of the weight, and return to his natural size. The strain of working out, and working against the big men inside is taking its toll on JO, and thus the Pacers. Maybe, if we had Artest still, the "slow it down" method would work because Artest could slow it down on the other end, and make up for the dropoff in JO's defense (in blocks and steals) resulting from how hard he had to work on offense. In theory, that system would work. But now that Artest is gone, JO's extra bulk will have to go with as well.

Playing a more ball-movement offense is definetly what this team needs. JTins (though he should be traded) has the ability to run a more up-tempo game, and you know Sarunas, being a Euro-product is capable of it. Freddie Jones, Danny Granger, and Peja are also good fits into a faster game. Hulk would also be able to benefit from the movement because of the other players ability to draw double-teams, leaving him open under the hoop. Jackson could be alright as a third option in this style, as long as iso's are avoided for him. And, we can still maintain a little toughness underneath with Fiesty and Scot, who are both able to guard most any 4 or 5 in the league respectively.

I like this idea a lot. In my opinion, it's exactly what needs to be done if we have a shot at making any noise in the playoffs. You saw what happened to Detriot (though, I don't believe that anyone will beat them this year) when we moved the ball and played with more energy than before. JO can fit into this scheme, Carlisle just has to allow it, and JO has to return to his lighter, more natural weight and position.

sweabs
02-07-2006, 12:01 AM
Regarding the JO weight issue...

That was another topic I remember discussing in the summer, as I hoped he would slim down to somewhere closer to when we acquired him (the athletic, versatile, JO).

I think once we traded Brad, we came to the realization that we'd be fairly thin up front. Foster had to move into the starting role, and he's not your prototypical centre in terms of size. I think that may have forced JO into becoming a bigger/slower player as a way of over-compensating for what Foster lacked (and what we hoped to have at the centre position).

Now with Harrison manning the 5 spot, I see no reason for JO to be as big as he is; it doesn't suit his style of play. I actually think it would be beneficial to have an athletic and versatile PF alongside Hulk, who can capitalize on the space that David creates down low...the JO of old, perhaps.

rexnom
02-07-2006, 01:38 AM
Regarding the JO weight issue...

That was another topic I remember discussing in the summer, as I hoped he would slim down to somewhere closer to when we acquired him (the athletic, versatile, JO).

I think once we traded Brad, we came to the realization that we'd be fairly thin up front. Foster had to move into the starting role, and he's not your prototypical centre in terms of size. I think that may have forced JO into becoming a bigger/slower player as a way of over-compensating for what Foster lacked (and what we hoped to have at the centre position).

Now with Harrison manning the 5 spot, I see no reason for JO to be as big as he is; it doesn't suit his style of play. I actually think it would be beneficial to have an athletic and versatile PF alongside Hulk, who can capitalize on the space that David creates down low...the JO of old, perhaps.

What is J.O.'s stance on this? You say it was discussed in the summer but does J.O. want to slim down? Obviously I think it would benefit the team if he was slimmer and more athletic and could run more with a new style of play. This of course is not saying that J.O. is really overweight by any means.

D-BONE
02-07-2006, 06:29 AM
What is J.O.'s stance on this? You say it was discussed in the summer but does J.O. want to slim down? Obviously I think it would benefit the team if he was slimmer and more athletic and could run more with a new style of play. This of course is not saying that J.O. is really overweight by any means.

Good question. No idea what JO's take could be on this. Maybe it'd be like, hey I put in a lotta time in the weight room to get to this point now you're gonna turn around and ask me to slim down. Hopefully he'd think it was a good move from a health (read: less injury pronte) standpoint. Overweight? No. Fat? No way. I might say overly "bulked up".

able
02-07-2006, 08:59 AM
Ok so this thread is the one I reply to :) There's so many of 'm, hard to make a choice.

A few things first, JO's weight, let's assume that players in this league, making what he makes do not wake up on summer morning and decide to add bulk/weight, that is something that is suggested and thought over, worked out and finally put into a scheme by the coaching staff.
One of the most heard remarks just after it became clear he had bulked up sufficiently was that he did not lose any speed.
Now whether you agree with that or not, those are the remarks form the coaches/trainers, and we have to take them at face value.

Then JO's passing, perhaps some of you missed it, but I've been saying for a long time that JO is a much better passer then given credit here, I am to lazy (read busy) to start and cut the clips but I am sure I can show you a ton of them where the pass is perfect but butter fingers or stone hands couldn't handle the ball coming in.
Also if he passes out to the 3pt line where all the other players are conform the gameplan, waiting, Jax takes a dribble and shoots, as does Fred, both are not good for the Ast rate, but they are in fact assists.

Now before I can go to whether JO can play in the current system, some facts about our "normal" system:

Rick did neigh on the same in Detroit, it is no secret that clock management, defense and using the full shotclock are major parts of the coaching style of Rick Carlisle.
Inside-Out are his magic words and players do what they're told.
Inclusive of JO most players on this team have at one point or another given notice on how they dislike the offensive system.

This system however is based on defense, all players back on defense, stopping the offense and creating turnovers, while on offense playing the full shotclock and preventing turnovers as much as possible in exchange for the best shot possible.
So what happens in reality, Tins brings up the ball and looks for an open space, JO or his own shot, in that particular order.
Due to the speed we play at, only very high percentage shots are "allowed" in the first 18 seconds on the clock, so usually the ball ends up with JO.
JO has to make the fakes, attempting to draw double or treble teams, and if they do not come he has to go one on one, since that is a very high percentage play.
Usually the double is already there when he gets the ball, the treble comes when he starts moving.
Now he has to kick the ball out to the perimeter, which he usually does, unless he can see that there are no options, and no, the guy on the weakside direct is a nono in our style of play as it is a high risk (cross court) pass.
So back out to Tins, back to the then less weak side and a shot.
Or when sort passing is impossible, the fade away, or attack on the double team.
Now consider that most of JO's shots and plays are made against at least a double team and then again look at his stats, they're not so-so but amazing.

Sometimes Jeff cuts inside and if he can catch the pass, he will score, it is where most of JO's Ast come from.

Now back to the current day and current offense.
It is highly unlikely that Rick will continue to play this style once Jamaal and JO are back, though there will be a move away from the system we played for the simple reason that we got Peja and lost Ron.
There will have to be more movement, but on the other hand, the inside-out will also work better because Peja is a far deadlier and faster draw then any other player we had short of "defereggie",
thus spreading the offense more.
But there is more going on with this team and I am amazed I have not seen this mentioned (yet).
For that we have to take a look at the last two games; Polly and Hulk at C, Fiesty at PF Granger and Peja Sf, Jax and Fred SG.
Important here are several things, 1: the lack of a real PF like JO, 2: the addition and play of "real" C's and 3: the "danger" coming from Danny and Peja.

Most "runs" were made with Hulk at C and Danny, Peja in at the same time.
Why is this so significant?

Mostly the C part, anyone notice the "easy" buckets we get when a drive is made and the dish to David can be made?

Now imagine something: David is gaining confidence by the minute, did anyone see his smile after the game against the Pistons? did anyone see his near crying happiness in his eyes? Well call me a sob, but I did, and it warmed me, here's a guy with a lot of talent, a major asset for us and he is coming into his own, what better feeling can there be.
Now as I said, imagine him playing alongside JO, and Danny and Peja and Tins.
Ball movement plenty, JO drawing the double? pass into David, but here comes the big why we made the runs with him in; He is very very hard to stop inside, he can not be shoved away, he can take the ball over anyone, and finish.

JO doubled, David to well covered? Peja out on the perimeter or on the cut and Danny floating and working around all this.

Big question is not can our players stay healthy, that's a matter of luck, statistics, and things we can not see, because we don't know, it is not whether our players and mainly our star JO can play another style, he's done so with success earlier in his career so why not, not whether our coach wants to "combine" styles, it is whether the team can prove to the coach and TPTB that the mix of those styles is what they are good at, that they can bring that every night.

Then consider again whether we would be an outside contender or not.

aldoc2
02-07-2006, 11:25 AM
Ok so this thread is the one I reply to :) There's so many of 'm, hard to make a choice.

A few things first, JO's weight, let's assume that players in this league, making what he makes do not wake up on summer morning and decide to add bulk/weight, that is something that is suggested and thought over, worked out and finally put into a scheme by the coaching staff.
One of the most heard remarks just after it became clear he had bulked up sufficiently was that he did not lose any speed.
Now whether you agree with that or not, those are the remarks form the coaches/trainers, and we have to take them at face value.

Then JO's passing, perhaps some of you missed it, but I've been saying for a long time that JO is a much better passer then given credit here, I am to lazy (read busy) to start and cut the clips but I am sure I can show you a ton of them where the pass is perfect but butter fingers or stone hands couldn't handle the ball coming in.
Also if he passes out to the 3pt line where all the other players are conform the gameplan, waiting, Jax takes a dribble and shoots, as does Fred, both are not good for the Ast rate, but they are in fact assists.

Now before I can go to whether JO can play in the current system, some facts about our "normal" system:

Rick did neigh on the same in Detroit, it is no secret that clock management, defense and using the full shotclock are major parts of the coaching style of Rick Carlisle.
Inside-Out are his magic words and players do what they're told.
Inclusive of JO most players on this team have at one point or another given notice on how they dislike the offensive system.

This system however is based on defense, all players back on defense, stopping the offense and creating turnovers, while on offense playing the full shotclock and preventing turnovers as much as possible in exchange for the best shot possible.
So what happens in reality, Tins brings up the ball and looks for an open space, JO or his own shot, in that particular order.
Due to the speed we play at, only very high percentage shots are "allowed" in the first 18 seconds on the clock, so usually the ball ends up with JO.
JO has to make the fakes, attempting to draw double or treble teams, and if they do not come he has to go one on one, since that is a very high percentage play.
Usually the double is already there when he gets the ball, the treble comes when he starts moving.
Now he has to kick the ball out to the perimeter, which he usually does, unless he can see that there are no options, and no, the guy on the weakside direct is a nono in our style of play as it is a high risk (cross court) pass.
So back out to Tins, back to the then less weak side and a shot.
Or when sort passing is impossible, the fade away, or attack on the double team.
Now consider that most of JO's shots and plays are made against at least a double team and then again look at his stats, they're not so-so but amazing.

Sometimes Jeff cuts inside and if he can catch the pass, he will score, it is where most of JO's Ast come from.

Now back to the current day and current offense.
It is highly unlikely that Rick will continue to play this style once Jamaal and JO are back, though there will be a move away from the system we played for the simple reason that we got Peja and lost Ron.
There will have to be more movement, but on the other hand, the inside-out will also work better because Peja is a far deadlier and faster draw then any other player we had short of "defereggie",
thus spreading the offense more.
But there is more going on with this team and I am amazed I have not seen this mentioned (yet).
For that we have to take a look at the last two games; Polly and Hulk at C, Fiesty at PF Granger and Peja Sf, Jax and Fred SG.
Important here are several things, 1: the lack of a real PF like JO, 2: the addition and play of "real" C's and 3: the "danger" coming from Danny and Peja.

Most "runs" were made with Hulk at C and Danny, Peja in at the same time.
Why is this so significant?

Mostly the C part, anyone notice the "easy" buckets we get when a drive is made and the dish to David can be made?

Now imagine something: David is gaining confidence by the minute, did anyone see his smile after the game against the Pistons? did anyone see his near crying happiness in his eyes? Well call me a sob, but I did, and it warmed me, here's a guy with a lot of talent, a major asset for us and he is coming into his own, what better feeling can there be.
Now as I said, imagine him playing alongside JO, and Danny and Peja and Tins.
Ball movement plenty, JO drawing the double? pass into David, but here comes the big why we made the runs with him in; He is very very hard to stop inside, he can not be shoved away, he can take the ball over anyone, and finish.

JO doubled, David to well covered? Peja out on the perimeter or on the cut and Danny floating and working around all this.

Big question is not can our players stay healthy, that's a matter of luck, statistics, and things we can not see, because we don't know, it is not whether our players and mainly our star JO can play another style, he's done so with success earlier in his career so why not, not whether our coach wants to "combine" styles, it is whether the team can prove to the coach and TPTB that the mix of those styles is what they are good at, that they can bring that every night.

Then consider again whether we would be an outside contender or not.


I must admit, I agree with you on just about everything you said here. For some reason I also like the lineup of Hulk, JO, Peja, DG, JT

pizza guy
02-07-2006, 07:48 PM
I also like the lineup of Hulk, JO, Peja, DG, and Tins (only because we don't have another starting PG yet). Plenty of size in Hulk and JO, and Hulk's size allows JO to go back to his normal size because he won't have to guard the big centers. Danny is, well, Danny, what more do I have to say? Peja provides great shooting, and stretches the defense. And JTins, for the time he's un-injured, can run the show as well as anyone.

Wow, are we actually talking about having a good team? What is this jibba-jabba?