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Jon Theodore
02-04-2006, 10:21 PM
Anyone see JO at the end of the game, he sure didn't look like he was in a "celebratory" mood.

I LOVE this team without Jermaine. Can someone tell Carlisle or JErmaine to get real and quit running the offense through JO when he is in. This team is so much better without him.

There is no way we win this game with JO. Absolutely NO WAY. I don't care if I get banned for stating an unpopular opinion, but it is so clearly obvious. Granger is out future, if we can trade Jermaine for an elite defender and a draft pick then we need to do that immediately.

JO is not a leader, OBVIOUSLY. Pollard and DH were LOVING this win and JO just looked pissed off to me. I can't wait for all the JO lovers to come and defend him. But I dare someone to say we win this game running an offense through JO with rasheed owning him like always.

IS there anyone who wouldn't rather have Rasheed than JO? He is easily TWICE the player. I mean he owns Jermaine everytime we play them. If we get detroit in the playoffs Jermaine needs to just play defense and keep his mouth shut.

Moses
02-04-2006, 10:25 PM
Anyone see JO at the end of the game, he sure didn't look like he was in a "celebratory" mood.

I LOVE this team without Jermaine. Can someone tell Carlisle or JErmaine to get real and quit running the offense through JO when he is in. This team is so much better without him.

There is no way we win this game with JO. Absolutely NO WAY. I don't care if I get banned for stating an unpopular opinion, but it is so clearly obvious. Granger is out future, if we can trade Jermaine for an elite defender and a draft pick then we need to do that immediately.

JO is not a leader, OBVIOUSLY. Pollard and DH were LOVING this win and JO just looked pissed off to me. I can't wait for all the JO lovers to come and defend him. But I dare someone to say we win this game running an offense through JO with rasheed owning him like always.

IS there anyone who wouldn't rather have Rasheed than JO? He is easily TWICE the player. I mean he owns Jermaine everytime we play them. If we get detroit in the playoffs Jermaine needs to just play defense and keep his mouth shut.
We win a game against a Pistons team who is terrible in back to backs and we need to trade Jermaine because he isn't in the game. Who cares if we outrebounded them by 20 and only shot 39%...Trade Jermaine.

Anthem
02-04-2006, 10:29 PM
Trade him for a defender and a draft pick? No thanks.

Nobody's untradable, but if you move the best player on the team you've got to do better than that.

Moses
02-04-2006, 10:29 PM
Let me say this in the most clear terms I can think of:

Jon Theodore, you are a disgrace for a human being.

And I will celebrate the day you stop posting
Oh yeah, I meant to say this to. Able, you and I must have been mentally connected this week. Everything you've said is something that I completely agree with.

And Theodore, Tell me how many teams won a championship without a low post player. So you're saying we don't need any low post offensive presence and we win? Interesting.

Ragnar
02-04-2006, 10:31 PM
Its not Jermaine its Ricks system when Jermaine is in. Blame Rick not J.O.

FreshPrince22
02-04-2006, 10:33 PM
I'm telling you... This team is better without JO (whether it's Rick or JO's fault, I don't know). He slows it down too much. Guys like Sarunas, Fred Jones, Granger, need to run, and need ball movement. JO takes them out of that too often. Ball and player movement also leads to the defense being out of position for rebounds. Which has been a contributing factor the last few games for you guys.

SoupIsGood
02-04-2006, 10:35 PM
We just beat an incredible team. Can we not b!tch about JO for at least the rest of the night?

Lord Helmet
02-04-2006, 10:37 PM
We just beat an incredible team. Can we not b!tch about JO for at least the rest of the night?
Yeah. Really. Enough with it.

Bball
02-04-2006, 10:38 PM
Well, I'll chime in with some moral support for you here. You'll probably need it.

Although you said it rather harshly, I can't disagree with anything in your post.

I was thinking this evening of all the times that we had Artest on another team's star and afterwards the talk of the other team would be that their guy 'had a bad game'. They couldn't admit to the reality that Artest had bothered their guy's game. I think many of us don't want to see what we're seeing here either. 'Our' guy (JO), the supposed face of the franchise and $120,000,000.00 man, is not living up to expecations and we're better without him.

Maybe a better statement would be we are better without him as the number 1 option. When he's out of the game we get that by default.

TPTB might as well face it now and decide what the answer and issue is. Could JO be happy without touching the ball every trip? Can we pay a second fiddle "first" violin money and fund the rest of the team properly to be a contender again?

I quit worrying a long time ago about JO being out of games. I don't worry in the least when I hear he's out.

What other team could lose their supposed 'cornerstone' and play better? Consistently! And do it when short-handed?

There's something to all this.

-BBall

able
02-04-2006, 10:38 PM
I'm telling you... This team is better without JO (whether it's Rick or JO's fault, I don't know). He slows it down too much. Guys like Sarunas, Fred Jones, Granger, need to run, and need ball movement. JO takes them out of that too often. Ball and player movement also leads to the defense being out of position for rebounds. Which has been a contributing factor the last few games for you guys.
Your team just got beat handsomely while our star player and startign point guard were out.
You really think that earned you the right to come here to tell anyone anything about that same All Star?

It has loooooooooong been established that it is the coach that decides these matters and way of play, and what the second unit needs is what the second unit gets, because all the players you mentioned are that.

Jon Theodore
02-04-2006, 10:41 PM
Yeah i really am a disgrace for a human being for not having the exact same opinion as everyone else. I'm glad some people here have a brain, I agree it is Carlisles fault more than Jermaine...but either way it is still pathetic basketball we play with Jermaine.


I think some people here just got caught up with the fact Jermaine has a shoe commercial, just like everyone who voted him in as an all-star. It is actually hilarious.

Not to brag, but I easily have a higher IQ than most people here. I have a 3.7 GPA in college right now and I don't even try. It's just funny that you people sit there and think i'm stupid because I don't like Jermaine. Get over your elitist attitude and realize people are different.

If you people can praise Jermaine everyday, then I can bash him. I don't like the guy, accept that. Essentially, Able...your comments about me are nothing more than racist.

I read these forums everyday and Kstat knows more than any of you do about basketball and he is probably the smartest poster besides Bball. But since the "masses" all feel differently than those two posters they are looked down upon.

You guys think Pacers Digest is such a classy forum, well to me it's nothing more than elitist and racist. How am I not banned yet? I mean not a lot of people agree with me, i'm amazed I can still post.

Harmonica
02-04-2006, 10:42 PM
TPTB might as well face it now and decide what the answer and issue is.

The difference between TPTB and most fans is that they're not going rush to any conclusions or make any rash decisions based on two games.

SoupIsGood
02-04-2006, 10:44 PM
I think some people here just got caught up with the fact Jermaine has a shoe commercial, just like everyone who voted him in as an all-star. It is actually hilarious.

Not to brag, but I easily have a higher IQ than most people here. I have a 3.7 GPA in college right now and I don't even try. It's just funny that you people sit there and think i'm stupid because I don't like Jermaine. Get over your elitist attitude and realize people are different.



Dude, you're acting a jackass

pacerwaala
02-04-2006, 10:44 PM
We just beat an incredible team. Can we not b!tch about JO for at least the rest of the night?


damn right!

Bball
02-04-2006, 10:45 PM
Trade him for a defender and a draft pick? No thanks.

Nobody's untradable, but if you move the best player on the team you've got to do better than that.

He said "an elite defender" and a draft pick.

I'd be absolutely fine with that. I'd do it in a heartbeat. I don't know who'd fit the definition of an 'elite' defender off the top of my head (that would work with this team)... but I can't argue with the premise.

Listen, if JO was 24 this would be different.

I can also accept that Rick is using JO wrong if someone wants to argue that... but it doesn't seem to hurt Rick's coaching NOT to have JO available.

I ask again: What other team could lose their cornerstone player and play better... consistently?

-Bball

SoupIsGood
02-04-2006, 10:46 PM
I ask again: What other team could lose their cornerstone player and play better... consistently?

-Bball

Any team coached by Rick Carlisle.




That could also be twisted to support what you are saying

Reggie4Three
02-04-2006, 10:47 PM
Theodore is right about the "elitist" attitude here. Many here don't know near as much about basketball as they would like to think.

Bball
02-04-2006, 10:49 PM
The difference between TPTB and most fans is that they're not going rush to any conclusions or make any rash decisions based on two games.


Of course if they want to look at last season too they can...

This isn't a 2 game 'strangeness'. And the team has played better ever since JO went down. Not just these 2 wins.

I just don't know how much clearer it needs to be before people start paying attention. That they play better without JO IMHO is a fact, it's only a question of why....

-Bball

Jaydawg2270
02-04-2006, 10:49 PM
Let me say this in the most clear terms I can think of:

Jon Theodore, you are a disgrace for a human being.

And I will celebrate the day you stop posting

Ouch

Jon Theodore
02-04-2006, 10:50 PM
I am always ragging on JO. I am not making a rash decision by any means. I think there has been ONE game so far this season where I have been "impressed" by Jermaine.

But I guess if having a different opinion is acting like a jackass, then you got me. This team is going nowhere anytime soon, but hey nobody here likes to face reality.

The reality being Tinsley and Jermaine are two main pieces are very injury prone. They will never be healthy for a full season. Granger is this teams future along with Fred Jones if we can keep him, maybe even David Harrison if he matures. So I am a major advocate of getting rid of Jermaine now while he still has some sort of trade value. But I guess if you want us to keep making the playoffs to lose then keeping Jermaine is probably a good idea.

If you so called mature individuals want to disagree, go for it. To call me a disgrace as a human, is far worse than anything I have ever posted.

Mordecaii
02-04-2006, 10:51 PM
Yeah i really am a disgrace for a human being for not having the exact same opinion as everyone else. I'm glad some people here have a brain, I agree it is Carlisles fault more than Jermaine...but either way it is still pathetic basketball we play with Jermaine.


I think some people here just got caught up with the fact Jermaine has a shoe commercial, just like everyone who voted him in as an all-star. It is actually hilarious.

Not to brag, but I easily have a higher IQ than most people here. I have a 3.7 GPA in college right now and I don't even try. It's just funny that you people sit there and think i'm stupid because I don't like Jermaine. Get over your elitist attitude and realize people are different.

If you people can praise Jermaine everyday, then I can bash him. I don't like the guy, accept that. Essentially, Able...your comments about me are nothing more than racist.

I read these forums everyday and Kstat knows more than any of you do about basketball and he is probably the smartest poster besides Bball. But since the "masses" all feel differently than those two posters they are looked down upon.

You guys think Pacers Digest is such a classy forum, well to me it's nothing more than elitist and racist. How am I not banned yet? I mean not a lot of people agree with me, i'm amazed I can still post.


I'm sorry, but the things you wrote here void any and all merit your previous post in this thread might have had. If you feel the need to "impress" us with a GPA and then resort to throwing around racist accusations, then it only proves to me that your point cannot stand on its own and you feel the need to attack others because of it. Furthermore, just because someone has an opinion that isn't "with the masses" does not make it any more valid, nor more likely to be true than any other opinion. Thinking as such will only lead you to disagree with people just for the sake of disagreeing.

Now as for your point, I believe we can all see the difference between when JO is in the lineup and when he's not. There are many different and equally valid possibilities as to why the team plays different when he's not in the lineup, including the fact they are forced to play harder, they open up the offense due to not having a dominant inside threat, RC tries to force-feed JO, and yes it's possible that JO is at fault as well. Now, I would like to know whether your 3.7 GPA is able to rule out all other possibilities and say for sure exactly where the fault lies? As for me, against Detroit I could certainly see part of the fault lying with JO since he does seem to have problems with Rasheed but there are still other factors as well.

In conclusion, please try to stick to basketball, bearing in mind that everyone is entitled to their opinions (that goes for people on both sides of the debate, able's words were pretty harsh too ;) ) and that we should keep this forum focused on basketball instead of attacks on people behind the keyboards. If you disagree, disagree with the idea or the post.

SoupIsGood
02-04-2006, 10:53 PM
But I guess if having a different opinion is acting like a jackass

You don't get it. You never get it.

FreshPrince22
02-04-2006, 10:53 PM
Your team just got beat handsomely while our star player and startign point guard were out.
You really think that earned you the right to come here to tell anyone anything about that same All Star?

It has loooooooooong been established that it is the coach that decides these matters and way of play, and what the second unit needs is what the second unit gets, because all the players you mentioned are that.

Are you trying to rub it in my face when I am complimenting your other players? Look, it doesn't take a genius to see it, considering everytime JO leaves, the team they play better. The Pacers beat us last year without JO as well. I could care less. I am just backing the original poster of this thread.

Los Angeles
02-04-2006, 10:54 PM
Apologies. I didn't read this thread because it had the same title as a thread from last week. Turns out a new thread I posted just now covers some of the same issues.

sweabs
02-04-2006, 10:55 PM
What other team could lose their supposed 'cornerstone' and play better? Consistently! And do it when short-handed?

There's something to all this.

Quoted for truth. I don't really have much to add, but have always agreed with Bball on this issue. From a fan's perspective, it is much more fun to watch, and I'm sure it's a lot more fun for the guys on the floor as well.

And Jermaine ain't getting any younger.

Jon Theodore
02-04-2006, 10:56 PM
Mordecaii your post makes more sense than what anybody has posted in this thread. I am glad you took the time to post that. I've had a lot to drink tonight and Able's comments really pissed me off.

I'm sure I came off as immature, that doesn't bother me. What does bother me is how most people here are really not willing to hear opinions that do not coincide directly with their own. Able, as someone who is supposed to lead by example...you certainly aren't doing a very good job.

Thanks for your post mordecaii, there are actually intelligent individuals here after all.

pizza guy
02-04-2006, 11:03 PM
The Pacers obviously play a different style of basketball when JO is out. They have to. It's faster, it's more fun to watch, and it wins a lot of REGULAR SEASON games. If we ever want to go anywhere in the playoffs, we have to have an inside presence. Now, unless we plan on trading JO for KG, we better stick with Number 7 because there's not another guy out there who's readily available to be everything we need.

JO is a Pacer, and will be for a long time. If you don't like him, and there are reasons to dislike him, that's fine and dandy. But the style that we play when he is out is implimented by Carlisle, not JO, so blame him for the difference. If JO dropped a little weight and played full time at PF instead part-time at C, he could easily fit into the faster game, and everyone would be happy. That sounds like I'm advocating the style that I said wouldn't go far in the playoffs, but I'm not. I think JO can still be that inside presence because of his length and quickness, AND he can fit into the more ball-movement oriented offense that we saw tonight.

JO is not the problem, the role that the coaching staff and unavoidable circumstances has put JO in is the problem.

Mordecaii
02-04-2006, 11:06 PM
I just felt like I should say something because comments were definately getting out of control in this thread. :cool:

Sometimes I wonder though... does anyone else think that feeding the ball into JO might work really well against some teams, but not against others? Should the Pacers work on actually *gasp* adjusting their play to the team they're playing???!!! Against teams like Detroit who have a great inside defense, dumping the ball into JO is not a good strategy, but some other teams lack that inside presence and JO could be a huge weapon against them. Sometimes I think it's the lack of the team adjusting more than anything that causes us to consistently fail in the playoffs.

Jon Theodore
02-04-2006, 11:06 PM
Pizza guy excellent post, maybe Able should take notes on how to successfully express a different opinion.

Roaming Gnome
02-04-2006, 11:10 PM
You guys think Pacers Digest is such a classy forum, well to me it's nothing more than elitist and racist. How am I not banned yet? I mean not a lot of people agree with me, i'm amazed I can still post.

Jon, if you don't like how you are treated here, then leave already! This is not the only game in town as far as forums go. Hicks, able and many other spend a lot of time to make this a very good place to post and talk about the NBA and other topics. Your above comments are a disgrace to their efforts and hard work.

Granted, I didn't have a 3.7 GPA...But, you are acting like you didn't have one either. Grow UP!!!

SoupIsGood
02-04-2006, 11:11 PM
Pizza guy excellent post, maybe Able should take notes on how to successfully express a different opinion.

And then maybe you could take a look at those notes also???

Moses
02-04-2006, 11:13 PM
You guys do realize we are 2-6 in our last 8 games right?

We win two games and we are such a better team without JO. Where was this moronic talk a week ago when we were getting blown out by the hawks?

Anthem
02-04-2006, 11:13 PM
He said "an elite defender" and a draft pick.
Like?

Foster defends PFs as well as anyone in the league. Pollard (and soon maybe Harrison) is great against most centers. I mean, if Dikembe in his prime were still around, I'd consider him an elite big man defender. But there's nobody like that out there.

I really wish we'd target KG, though. He can be had.

Hicks
02-04-2006, 11:15 PM
You guys think Pacers Digest is such a classy forum, well to me it's nothing more than elitist and racist. How am I not banned yet? I mean not a lot of people agree with me, i'm amazed I can still post.

You know, I privately defended you at the start of this thread. But to keep this antagonism up and to call this place racist? Get out.

Kstat
02-04-2006, 11:16 PM
Some people need a lesson in tact.

Either that or take a deep breth, sheesh.

shags
02-04-2006, 11:19 PM
Like?

Foster defends PFs as well as anyone in the league. Pollard (and soon maybe Harrison) is great against most centers. I mean, if Dikembe in his prime were still around, I'd consider him an elite big man defender. But there's nobody like that out there.

I really wish we'd target KG, though. He can be had.

O'Neal, Tinsley, and a future 1st for Garnett and Hudson.

Won't happen during this season, but like someone else on this board said, no one could offer a better package for KG than that.

pizza guy
02-04-2006, 11:20 PM
There were, on both sides of this argument, some poor reactions. I don't care who started it, or who said what, it came from both sides and was very childish. Now, there have also been some very good posts that raised wonderful points about this discussion. How about we talk about those, not who's acting like 3 year olds. Come on, I'm 17 and I'm trying to regain the maturity of posters who are generally quality people - let's get this back on track. I'd really like to know what y'all think about JO dropping some of his weight and the Pacers continuing this ball-movement offense.

Suaveness
02-04-2006, 11:21 PM
Yeah i really am a disgrace for a human being for not having the exact same opinion as everyone else. I'm glad some people here have a brain, I agree it is Carlisles fault more than Jermaine...but either way it is still pathetic basketball we play with Jermaine.


I think some people here just got caught up with the fact Jermaine has a shoe commercial, just like everyone who voted him in as an all-star. It is actually hilarious.

Not to brag, but I easily have a higher IQ than most people here. I have a 3.7 GPA in college right now and I don't even try. It's just funny that you people sit there and think i'm stupid because I don't like Jermaine. Get over your elitist attitude and realize people are different.

If you people can praise Jermaine everyday, then I can bash him. I don't like the guy, accept that. Essentially, Able...your comments about me are nothing more than racist.

I read these forums everyday and Kstat knows more than any of you do about basketball and he is probably the smartest poster besides Bball. But since the "masses" all feel differently than those two posters they are looked down upon.

You guys think Pacers Digest is such a classy forum, well to me it's nothing more than elitist and racist. How am I not banned yet? I mean not a lot of people agree with me, i'm amazed I can still post.


I can get a 3.7 in fashion merchandizing too :-p


I do think we need to change about our philosophy regarding JO though. Something needs to be different.

DisplacedKnick
02-04-2006, 11:30 PM
Thanks for the entertainment everyone.

Now, IMO the Pacers play better without JO - they move the ball better, players move better, etc. Much more fun to watch.

But you're a better team WITH him. It's not as pretty but much more effective. It would be nice if a post game didn't bog down the offense but it almost always does - don't ask me why, I think it's just human nature. Players start standing around once they've entered the ball in the post and it just doesn't look as good. But having a strong post player is still a huge plus.

Eindar
02-04-2006, 11:30 PM
Let me say this in the most clear terms I can think of:

Jon Theodore, you are a disgrace for a human being.

And I will celebrate the day you stop posting

I'd like to point something out, here. Jon Theodore is probably one of my least favorite posters at the moment, and this thread did nothing to help his reputation with me. However, this post by Able was completely out of line. Were this anyone not named Able, UncleBuck, Hicks, Shade, or Magic Rat, that individual would be getting a warning. Believe me, I've been "threatened" by the Digest's "inner circle" once or twice for saying something they felt to be out of line.

It's a private message board, you guys can do whatever you want, but there's definitely a double standard in place, and the fact that Able only received one reply of "Ouch" confirms it. Plain and simple, it's a personal attack, and as I understand it, that's a bannable offense...

Pacesetter
02-04-2006, 11:32 PM
JO looked just fine to me, not sure maybe I missed something, but he looked poised and reserved, as I'd expect him to be (on the IL). Of course everyone acts different ways when they're happy, or sad, so what do I know about how JO should be acting at the end of a great game we've won?

JO is NOT the problem, run the offense we had tonight when JO is back and the reults will be even better!

Get well soon JO!!! :cool:

Anthem
02-04-2006, 11:33 PM
O'Neal, Tinsley, and a future 1st for Garnett and Hudson.

Won't happen during this season, but like someone else on this board said, no one could offer a better package for KG than that.
Done.

Even if JO and Tinsley were healthy, I'd do that right now.

pizza guy
02-04-2006, 11:36 PM
Done.

Even if JO and Tinsley were healthy, I'd do that right now.

I probably would as well. Anything to get rid of Tinsley, and anything to get KG. That would be done.

Bball
02-04-2006, 11:40 PM
It's a private message board, you guys can do whatever you want, but there's definitely a double standard in place, and the fact that Able only received one reply of "Ouch" confirms it. Plain and simple, it's a personal attack, and as I understand it, that's a bannable offense...

I thought Able would see the error in his ways and delete or edit his post...

...apparently I was wrong.


-Bball

Bball
02-04-2006, 11:42 PM
Like?

Foster defends PFs as well as anyone in the league. Pollard (and soon maybe Harrison) is great against most centers. I mean, if Dikembe in his prime were still around, I'd consider him an elite big man defender. But there's nobody like that out there.

I really wish we'd target KG, though. He can be had.

OK... let's do it...
I'm on the KG bandwagon.

-Bball

shags
02-04-2006, 11:42 PM
Done.

Even if JO and Tinsley were healthy, I'd do that right now.

They wouldn't. But if the T-Wolves fail to make the playoffs again, I think KG will be looking to get out. And that's not an awful deal for them, especially considering they traded away their 2007 1st rounder and they'd be trading him out of conference. It'd probably allow TPTB to be able to not overpay for Stojakovic, if they're convinced Granger is the future at SF.

Eindar
02-04-2006, 11:44 PM
Back on topic, I think you could, in theory trade JO, but you'd need to get someone with a post game in return, whether that means trading JO plus someone else for a superior post player (Garnett...lol Duncan), or an inferior post player and some change. Great post play is like a security blanket, you don't have to have it to be successful, but it makes things a lot easier if you do have it.

I think if anyone's going to be upset about JO, it should be in regards to him changing his game from a slashing dunker to a fade-away jumpshooter.

Outlaw
02-04-2006, 11:44 PM
I'd like to point something out, here. Jon Theodore is probably one of my least favorite posters at the moment, and this thread did nothing to help his reputation with me. However, this post by Able was completely out of line. Were this anyone not named Able, UncleBuck, Hicks, Shade, or Magic Rat, that individual would be getting a warning. Believe me, I've been "threatened" by the Digest's "inner circle" once or twice for saying something they felt to be out of line.

It's a private message board, you guys can do whatever you want, but there's definitely a double standard in place, and the fact that Able only received one reply of "Ouch" confirms it. Plain and simple, it's a personal attack, and as I understand it, that's a bannable offense...

Well said...:cool:

pizza guy
02-04-2006, 11:44 PM
Not to mention, KG is definetly a player that the fanbase would except for JO. Most people who follow the Pacers like JO because he's been painted as the face of the franchise. But, basketball fans in Indiana aren't stupid, we know that player like KG are worth whatever you have.

Fireball Kid
02-05-2006, 12:46 AM
I'd like to point something out, here. Jon Theodore is probably one of my least favorite posters at the moment, and this thread did nothing to help his reputation with me. However, this post by Able was completely out of line. Were this anyone not named Able, UncleBuck, Hicks, Shade, or Magic Rat, that individual would be getting a warning. Believe me, I've been "threatened" by the Digest's "inner circle" once or twice for saying something they felt to be out of line.

It's a private message board, you guys can do whatever you want, but there's definitely a double standard in place, and the fact that Able only received one reply of "Ouch" confirms it. Plain and simple, it's a personal attack, and as I understand it, that's a bannable offense...

I agree too. Some of you guys need to grow up. Name-calling is just childish. If you don't have anything nice to post whether it concerns another member on PD, then don't post anything at all.

All Jon was doing (before the racist allegations thing) was expressing his opinion about how Jermaine O'Neil's play on the court effects the Indiana Pacers, and you, able, tell him that he is a disgrace for a human being?

Low.

grace
02-05-2006, 01:07 AM
I'd like to remind some people how well the ignore feature works. (Anyone care to guess how many posts I didn't have to see in just this thread?)

As for Jermaine not looking happy at the end of the game I didn't notice but I imagine he was jealous he couldn't dance with Scot and David. Just thinking about it probably made his groin hurt more.

SoupIsGood
02-05-2006, 01:08 AM
I'd like to remind some people how well the ignore feature works. (Anyone care to guess how many posts I didn't have to see in just this thread?)

As for Jermaine not looking happy at the end of the game I didn't notice but I imagine he was jealous he couldn't dance with Scot and David. Just thinking about it probably made his groin hurt more.


54

Moses
02-05-2006, 01:09 AM
I'd like to remind some people how well the ignore feature works. (Anyone care to guess how many posts I didn't have to see in just this thread?)

As for Jermaine not looking happy at the end of the game I didn't notice but I imagine he was jealous he couldn't dance with Scot and David. Just thinking about it probably made his groin hurt more.
57

kellogg
02-05-2006, 01:20 AM
I don't want to get into the argument here, but there are some good points about the team playing better without JO. Whether it's Carlisle's fault for over-relying on JO, or JO just trying to do too much himself, I don't know...maybe both. It's not to say JO isn't a good player...I think he's a star...not a superstar in the KG/Duncan/Kobe class, definitely a cut under that...but certainly in a Reggie Miller-type class. I just don't see JO being a dominant enough player or having a dominant enough personality (like a Jordan) to 'will' his team to victory. In many respects he reminds me of Reggie...breathtaking last second winning shots in the regular season and in a game 4 or 5 or 6 in the playoffs, but oh so rarely if ever did he come up big in a game 7. I see JO the same way.

There was an interesting post by a Pistons fan tonight on another site...made the exact same comment some have made here...that the Pacer players stand around and watch JO when he's in, the offense stagnates and the team just isn't fun at all to watch. It is an undeniable fact.

Case in point...last year after the suspensions...the team righted themselves, Reggie looked 29 instead of 39, and they player OVER .500 ball. JO comes off the suspension, Reggie quits shooting, the ball is forcefed into JO, he takes the double and triple teams (and by the way JO is a horrid passer for a big man), and we get to see for the umpteenth time him taking the ball left on the low post, fake left, spin right for a baseline shot...and the team plays UNDER .500 ball after his return.

Given the history last year and this...is it any wonder they look better without JO? I think both JO and RC are responsible for the one-on-one offense that is run almost exclusively when JO is playing.

I'd do a JO for Bosh or JO/Tins for KG in a minute...if the team really comes around the rest of the season, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see JO and Tinsley dealt before the start of next season.

Jermaniac
02-05-2006, 01:25 AM
JO would play in this offense, the guy wants to win. Rick is the one that slows the **** down, it isnt at all JO's fault that Rick wants to play slow motion basketball once Jermaine comes back. I bet you if Rick told Jermaine they would play this way the rest of the season Jermaine wouldnt say a damn word against that.

Jermaniac
02-05-2006, 01:30 AM
OK... let's do it...
I'm on the KG bandwagon.

-BballYou talk about JO being overpaid and not leading his team anywhere. Where has KG led his team to? Why is his team getting blown out right now everytime they step on the court? Why is that Mr.Theory? Cook me up a nice one, I dont want none of that weak ****.

And are you ever happy about anything? Good God, get off your period. Enjoy watching this damn team play and stop *****ing about the same damn thing after every game.Its Getting old.

Bball
02-05-2006, 01:35 AM
You talk about JO being overpaid and not leading his team anywhere. Where has KG led his team to? Why is his team getting blown out right now everytime they step on the court? Why is that Mr.Theory? Cook me up a nice one, I dont want none of that weak ****.

And are you ever happy about anything? Good God, get off your period. Enjoy watching this damn team play and stop *****ing about the same damn thing after every game.Its Getting old.

You take KG away from the T-wolves for several games at a time and we'll see if they play better or worse as a team.

-Bball

Jermaniac
02-05-2006, 01:37 AM
They just lost to the Warriors who lost 9 of their last 11 games by 30 points, damn that KG is a real monster. They are weak with him and with out him. Thats weak. Better luck next time.

sweabs
02-05-2006, 01:40 AM
They just lost to the Warriors who lost 9 of their last 11 games by 30 points, damn that KG is a real monster. They are weak with him and with out him. Thats weak. Better luck next time.

Didn't we lose to the Bobcats...or the Hawks? I don't remember...I seem to recall some nice 30 pt blowouts with us on the receiving end.

Ultimate Frisbee
02-05-2006, 01:52 AM
Let me say this in the most clear terms I can think of:

Jon Theodore, you are a disgrace for a human being.

And I will celebrate the day you stop posting


Seriously, I like PD and I appreciate you hosting this place, but comments like this are UNACCEPTABLE.

I am quite angry at the way this thread has progressed. I'll stake my membership of PD in order to make my opinion on this matter known.



While I have long been less than a fan of JO, and have made it known, I realize that he is valuable, though I accept that others will exaggerate the point. The same goes for the other side of things... when Ron was slandered on this board I don't think anyone repremanded those who said things that were 1000000 times worse than what Jon said about JO.

Though I realize JO's worth (an awesome post threat), I would be very happy to acquire any of the following big men (and only big men need apply) in a deal for JO (with appropriate compensation) :

Chris Bosh
Rasheed Wallace
Ben Wallace
Andrew Bogut
Dwight Howard
Dirk Nowitski
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Andrei Kirilenko
Elton Brand
Shawn Marion
Brad Miller

#31
02-05-2006, 02:10 AM
:disturbed

Bball
02-05-2006, 02:41 AM
Didn't we lose to the Bobcats...or the Hawks? I don't remember...I seem to recall some nice 30 pt blowouts with us on the receiving end.


Maybe it's my 'weak' memory but I seem to recall that all of the blowouts did in fact happen with JO playing.

-Bball

rm1369
02-05-2006, 03:04 AM
Though I realize JO's worth (an awesome post threat), I would be very happy to acquire any of the following big men (and only big men need apply) in a deal for JO (with appropriate compensation) :

Chris Bosh
Rasheed Wallace
Ben Wallace
Andrew Bogut
Dwight Howard
Dirk Nowitski
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Andrei Kirilenko
Elton Brand
Shawn Marion
Brad Miller

How many of those guys would be more effective than JO at doing what he is asked to do? How many of them would be much better if we ran the same offence we ran when JO was healthy? I'd say Duncan and maybe Brand (howard in the future). Everyone else would require Rick to run a different offence or do the same thing he has been doing with JO - Try to make them into something they are not. IMO JO is much closer to being KG then he is Shaq. Ricks offence up till now has treated JO as if he was Shaq.

For the record: I'd agree with Duncan, KG, Howard, Brand, Nowitzki, and Bosh I could maybe be convinced about AK. I just don't see them as realistic trade options. IMO, we need to play JO in a system he is suited for and see what we have.

Raskolnikov
02-05-2006, 03:06 AM
Jon Theodore, you are a disgrace for a human being.

:confused:

That's not a fair comment at all.

To say you largely disagree with his opinion, ok. But this?


:jawdrop:

Raskolnikov
02-05-2006, 03:24 AM
You know, I privately defended you at the start of this thread. But to keep this antagonism up and to call this place racist? Get out.
Did he know you were defending him? Did you give him a chance to cool down before you banned him?

If not then I don't think it's fair he got banned. There were some ugly/unreasonable things said to him. Stupid statements can ignite stupid responses and so on...

Eindar
02-05-2006, 03:45 AM
How many of those guys would be more effective than JO at doing what he is asked to do? How many of them would be much better if we ran the same offence we ran when JO was healthy? I'd say Duncan and maybe Brand (howard in the future). Everyone else would require Rick to run a different offence or do the same thing he has been doing with JO - Try to make them into something they are not. IMO JO is much closer to being KG then he is Shaq. Ricks offence up till now has treated JO as if he was Shaq.

For the record: I'd agree with Duncan, KG, Howard, Brand, Nowitzki, and Bosh I could maybe be convinced about AK. I just don't see them as realistic trade options. IMO, we need to play JO in a system he is suited for and see what we have.

I think this is part of our dilemma. Something has obviously changed in the way the Pacers approach games since we've added Peja. We attack the boards much more often, I think partly to force the tempo; either we get an extra shot, or they try a fast break. I think it's going to be hard to get a gauge on how JO will perform in this new approach until he's healthy. Now, if he comes back and we go back to that crappy "dump it into the post and wait for magic" I would say trade him for a passing big man with a lesser post presence who will work within this new system we're running. This new approach utilizes our...depth. The old one didn't :)

Bball
02-05-2006, 03:50 AM
IMO, we need to play JO in a system he is suited for and see what we have.

You are really hammering the issue home. I think moreso than saying that we need to play JO in a system more suited for him is finding out why we have continued to use him in the way that we have for as long as we have.

That answer is probably the key to unlocking a lot of the questions and answers that have been asked in this and LA's thread.

I'm not convinced JO is a "stat mongering whore" nor am I totally close-minded to the idea that JO 'requires' all these touches to keep him 'happy'.

It's time for Mike Wells to do some investigative reportering for us and ask TPTB just why it is we "continually use JO like Shaq" and all the related questions about whether he'd be better off at a lighter weight and why we don't try/do something different with him.

Mike, are you listening? Or if that is someplace he'd rather not go then maybe Kravitz can go there for us.

-Bball

abington
02-05-2006, 04:00 AM
Did he know you were defending him? Did you give him a chance to cool down before you banned him?

If not then I don't think it's fair he got banned. There were some ugly/unreasonable things said to him. Stupid statements can ignite stupid responses and so on...

i agree. it seems like a real quick trigger for someone who was flamed on as vitrolically as he was. i hope the big powers reconsider because it doesnt seem fair.

Eindar
02-05-2006, 04:13 AM
i agree. it seems like a real quick trigger for someone who was flamed on as vitrolically as he was. i hope the big powers reconsider because it doesnt seem fair.

I'm not sure if he did some stuff that we aren't aware of, and maybe that's factoring into him possibly getting banned for this. The admins are pretty quick to clean up/lock posts that are inappropriate or whatever, also, there may be PMs we're not aware of, and chances are we'll never know. I trust the mods/admins to do a reasonable job with making these decisions. Keep in mind, they're volunteers, not paid professionals.

My personal problem with Mr. Theodore is that he's constant doom and gloom. I've never seen him make a positive post in regards to this team, despite being a supposed fan. Certainly it's not a bannable offense, but he was a couple more Eeyore-esque posts from finding himself on my ignore list, and I'm a hard man to upset to the point that I'm willing to put you on ignore.

denyfizle
02-05-2006, 04:18 AM
its not JO's fault. Rick calls the shots. So hopefully when JO does come back, we would still play this type of offense and rotation which obviously wins games for us.

Eindar
02-05-2006, 04:30 AM
its not JO's fault. Rick calls the shots. So hopefully when JO does come back, we would still play this type of offense and rotation which obviously wins games for us.

I really do feel that Rick thinks he's finally got the pieces to run the offense the same way the Pacers did in '99, but with even more transition to utilize our youth and athleticism.

Dominant post player? Check. (JO)
2 perimeter sharpshooters? Check. (Peja and...sometimes Jax)
1 PG with great court vision? Check. (Tinsley, when healthy)
1 scrappy rebounder/defender? Check. (Foster)

The similarities are striking, only this Pacers team lacks a LOT of the veteran poise that team had. However, they are a LOT more athletic, so it probably balances out. The only major thing that team had that this one doesn't is a PG who makes great, smart plays with the ball most of the time. Heck, I'd even take this team's bench over the '99 team :)

Bball
02-05-2006, 04:38 AM
I really do feel that Rick thinks he's finally got the pieces to run the offense the same way the Pacers did in '99, but with even more transition to utilize our youth and athleticism.

Dominant post player? Check. (JO)
2 perimeter sharpshooters? Check. (Peja and...sometimes Jax)
1 PG with great court vision? Check. (Tinsley, when healthy)
1 scrappy rebounder/defender? Check. (Foster)

The similarities are striking, only this Pacers team lacks a LOT of the veteran poise that team had.

That's like saying "I've got a really fast race car... it just needs an engine"

Or... IOW.... Poise is not something that you can be short of ('veteran' poise or not).

That is one thing I think it looks like Peja is bringing tho... some poise. So things might be looking up there.

-Bball

Mourning
02-05-2006, 05:08 AM
Mordecaii your post makes more sense than what anybody has posted in this thread. I am glad you took the time to post that. I've had a lot to drink tonight and Able's comments really pissed me off.

I'm sure I came off as immature, that doesn't bother me. What does bother me is how most people here are really not willing to hear opinions that do not coincide directly with their own. Able, as someone who is supposed to lead by example...you certainly aren't doing a very good job.

Thanks for your post mordecaii, there are actually intelligent individuals here after all.

Strongly disagree, what pisses people off about you is not your opinion, but THE WAY you try to make your point. That puts people off the wrong way.
Work on the way you bring your message and a lot of people might appreciate the content of your message a lot more.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

owl
02-05-2006, 06:50 AM
Some people need a lesson in tact.

Either that or take a deep breth, sheesh.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

It would probably also help if Jon did not post when he was drunk.


owl

owl
02-05-2006, 07:01 AM
kellogg said..."Case in point...last year after the suspensions...the team righted themselves, Reggie looked 29 instead of 39, and they player OVER .500 ball. JO comes off the suspension, Reggie quits shooting, the ball is forcefed into JO, he takes the double and triple teams (and by the way JO is a horrid passer for a big man), and we get to see for the umpteenth time him taking the ball left on the low post, fake left, spin right for a baseline shot...and the team plays UNDER .500 ball after his return."

One of the worst problems with this offense is that it is a one shot and done
offense. The Pacers, when healthy have multiple big bodies who can
rebound well in a motion offense. I have been saying this for a couple years
now that JO should NOT be the leading scorer. He should be an offensive
facilitator and a rebounder and shot blocker. He needs to learn to block
out which he is very poor at. Rebounding is a team effort and requires
players to sacrifice occasionally by giving up the rebound to a teamate
because they blocked out.


owl

Hicks
02-05-2006, 09:16 AM
Jon's ban is 2 weeks, btw.

rm1369
02-05-2006, 10:52 AM
You are really hammering the issue home. I think moreso than saying that we need to play JO in a system more suited for him is finding out why we have continued to use him in the way that we have for as long as we have.

That answer is probably the key to unlocking a lot of the questions and answers that have been asked in this and LA's thread.

I'm not convinced JO is a "stat mongering whore" nor am I totally close-minded to the idea that JO 'requires' all these touches to keep him 'happy'.

It's time for Mike Wells to do some investigative reportering for us and ask TPTB just why it is we "continually use JO like Shaq" and all the related questions about whether he'd be better off at a lighter weight and why we don't try/do something different with him.

Mike, are you listening? Or if that is someplace he'd rather not go then maybe Kravitz can go there for us.

-Bball

I think the big disconnect is between TBTP and Rick. The players Bird has been after don't fit the grind it out style (Peja and Saras + all the Euro scouting), almost every player has complained about the offence (including JO), and we know Rick is a control freak. Bird's support of Ron's desire for more offensive freedom just sealed it for me.

Of course I'm not the biggest Rick fan. Maybe I'd rather believe we have a stubborn, slow to change coach rather than an overpaid Prima-Donna as the franchise cornerstone.

I'm really surprised we haven't heard more from Artest. If any answers come soon it will probably be from him.

Knucklehead Warrior
02-05-2006, 11:54 AM
I'd like to point something out, here. Jon Theodore is probably one of my least favorite posters at the moment, and this thread did nothing to help his reputation with me. However, this post by Able was completely out of line. Were this anyone not named Able, UncleBuck, Hicks, Shade, or Magic Rat, that individual would be getting a warning. Believe me, I've been "threatened" by the Digest's "inner circle" once or twice for saying something they felt to be out of line.

It's a private message board, you guys can do whatever you want, but there's definitely a double standard in place, and the fact that Able only received one reply of "Ouch" confirms it. Plain and simple, it's a personal attack, and as I understand it, that's a bannable offense...

Ditto.

BlueNGold
02-05-2006, 12:11 PM
Chris Bosh
Rasheed Wallace
Ben Wallace
Andrew Bogut
Dwight Howard
Dirk Nowitski
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Andrei Kirilenko
Elton Brand
Shawn Marion
Brad Miller

I am not a big JO fan, but he is a better fit with this team than half the players listed. The problem is less JO and more the style of offense RC plays. ...but I would take the following straight up for JO based on our needs:

Chris Bosh
Dwight Howard
Dirk Nowitski
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Elton Brand

All of those players are as good or better than JO and are far more durable. My favorite on the list would be Bosh who is a young Garnett IMO.

18to88
02-05-2006, 12:32 PM
Not to brag, but I easily have a higher IQ than most people here. I have a 3.7 GPA in college right now and I don't even try. It's just funny that you people sit there and think i'm stupid because I don't like Jermaine. Get over your elitist attitude and realize people are different.


That's probably a community college, if that.

Anyway, I might trade JO for Nowitzki but thats it. JO's a great player and a great person though.

Stryder
02-05-2006, 01:24 PM
Let me say this in the most clear terms I can think of:

Jon Theodore, you are a disgrace for a human being.

And I will celebrate the day you stop posting

Wow. This coming from the host of the site, PD? Ridiculous.

I seriously hope one of the administrators of this website pm'ed you about this message, because I do not see any public mention of it from one of them.

Now, what Jon Theodore said after your post was assinine and wrong, but what he said pre-your post was his OPINION.

rabid
02-05-2006, 01:36 PM
Not to brag, but I easily have a higher IQ than most people here. I have a 3.7 GPA in college right now and I don't even try.

"Not to brag, but..." (insert brag here)

Hehehehehe.

At this point this is way off-topic, but I gotta chime in here.

As a graduate student who regularly grades papers and exams from undergrads, I have some depressing news to report to you all:

These days, a 3.7 GPA (even in college) is nothing to brag about. It certainly doesn't make you a genius. The grading standards at many universities have unfortunately gone wayyyyy downhill over the past several years.

I've seen students who have 3.8/3.9 averages write papers that were so bad I felt embarassed to read them. I've seen newly-graduated professors come in, teach their first three or four weeks of class, and throw their hands up in surrender once they see what the actual education/skill level is of most of their students. Most of the time these professors will lower their standards of grading rather than take the difficult step of demanding more from students. Depressing I know, but it's just human nature.

IMO, if you're a freshman or sophmore, and you have a GPA lower than 3.5 (unless you're in a very challenging program/major, like nuclear physics or pre-law or something), you're simply not working hard enough.

The sad fact is that schools like Purdue and IU have lowered their admissions standards over the past few years in order to increase enrollment and revenue. IIRC you can have a C average in high school, score about 800 on your SAT and still squeak in to most of the programs at either of these schools, which is pretty outrageous IMO (no offense to people with that score).

Sorry this is long-winded but I just have to vent. Come back and talk to me when you have a 3.9 or better GPA, or a 3.3 or better at an Ivy League school. Then maybe you'll have something to brag about. But at the moment, unfortunately, our schools are so bad that getting good grades in them doesn't necessarily prove anything to me.

Jermaniac
02-05-2006, 01:38 PM
That's probably a community college, if that.

Anyway, I might trade JO for Nowitzki but thats it. JO's a great player and a great person though.OMG LMFAO At that kid in your sig. He kicked him in the penis.

18to88
02-05-2006, 01:49 PM
"Not to brag, but..." (insert brag here)

Hehehehehe.

At this point this is way off-topic, but I gotta chime in here.

As a graduate student who regularly grades papers and exams from undergrads, I have some depressing news to report to you all:

These days, a 3.7 GPA (even in college) is nothing to brag about. It certainly doesn't make you a genius. The grading standards at many universities have unfortunately gone wayyyyy downhill over the past several years.

I've seen students who have 3.8/3.9 averages write papers that were so bad I felt embarassed to read them. I've seen newly-graduated professors come in, teach their first three or four weeks of class, and throw their hands up in surrender once they see what the actual education/skill level is of most of their students. Most of the time these professors will lower their standards of grading rather than take the difficult step of demanding more from students. Depressing I know, but it's just human nature.

IMO, if you're a freshman or sophmore, and you have a GPA lower than 3.5 (unless you're in a very challenging program/major, like nuclear physics or pre-law or something), you're simply not working hard enough.

The sad fact is that schools like Purdue and IU have lowered their admissions standards over the past few years in order to increase enrollment and revenue. IIRC you can have a C average in high school, score about 800 on your SAT and still squeak in to most of the programs at either of these schools, which is pretty outrageous IMO (no offense to people with that score).

Sorry this is long-winded but I just have to vent. Come back and talk to me when you have a 3.9 or better GPA, or a 3.3 or better at an Ivy League school. Then maybe you'll have something to brag about. But at the moment, unfortunately, our schools are so bad that getting good grades in them doesn't necessarily prove anything to me.

No, you can't get a C average in HS and 800 on your SAT and get in to Purdue or IU. I think a 3.7 is good if its in a good school. Unfortunately, I don't have a GPA that high.

rabid
02-05-2006, 01:56 PM
No, you can't get a C average in HS and 800 on your SAT and get in to Purdue or IU. I think a 3.7 is good if its in a good school. Unfortunately, I don't have a GPA that high.

Sorry, maybe I was exaggerating a bit (but not by much I don't think). My point was not that you're "dumb" if you don't have a 3.7 gpa (sorry if I came off that way), but that bragging about your GPA in an undergrad program these days is pretty rich.

pizza guy
02-05-2006, 02:03 PM
I believe you can have probably a C+ average in high school, though I'm not sure about the 800 on the SAT, especially since they've changed to a 2400 point SAT, and make Purdue or IU. I know, for me, a 3.7 GPA and 1800 SAT (it converts to a 1220 out of 1600) was good enough to get into Huntington, a private liberal arts college, and 3.7 is hardly something to prove that you're more intelligent than the general population, though it is decent.

bulldog
02-05-2006, 03:12 PM
Someone should do a what's your intelligence level thread, just like we did with the basketball background. ;-)

Tom White
02-05-2006, 03:44 PM
Jon's ban is 2 weeks, btw.

Okay, what about able? His comments were totally uncalled for.

18to88
02-05-2006, 03:51 PM
Okay, what about able? His comments were totally uncalled for.

Rules don't apply to like 8 people on here. Didn't you see the one guy's post.

SoupIsGood
02-05-2006, 04:09 PM
Rules don't apply to like 8 people on here. Didn't you see the one guy's post.


Able slipped -one- time, and apologized. :rolleyes:

317Kim
02-05-2006, 04:11 PM
So what was the main thing about this thread. I forgot.

Bball
02-05-2006, 04:17 PM
So what was the main thing about this thread. I forgot.

Granger and Harrison had very good games and helped the team to a win.

-BBall

OnlyPacersLeft
02-05-2006, 04:19 PM
Trade him for a defender and a draft pick? No thanks.

Nobody's untradable, but if you move the best player on the team you've got to do better than that.

hmmmm the guy got banned? And hicks deleted ABLES post? ABLE runs this site I thought?


anyways on topic I don't know if we win with JO...and maybe we shouldn't completely run our offense through him. It's like when the magic had T-mac they ran through him while everyone else watched. Just dump it into JO is not a good strategy...rick knows this come on!

SoupIsGood
02-05-2006, 04:21 PM
So what was the main thing about this thread. I forgot.


http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/011906/office-fun-fact.gif

317Kim
02-05-2006, 04:32 PM
Granger and Harrison had very good games and helped the team to a win.

-BBall

Oh!

:nod: Young Guns are at it again!



OMGWTFBBQ.

Ultimate Frisbee
02-05-2006, 04:40 PM
Able slipped -one- time, and apologized. :rolleyes:

Still waiting for that apology... maybe it happened privately...

perhaps continue this discussion here and leave the basketball for this thread?

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=339778#post339778

SoupIsGood
02-05-2006, 04:49 PM
Still waiting for that apology... maybe it happened privately...

perhaps continue this discussion here and leave the basketball for this thread?

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=339778#post339778



http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19043