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View Full Version : Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....



Peck
02-01-2006, 02:16 AM
Ok, let's start this early.

I'm tempted to say Kobe breaks Wilts record tonight against us but I'll try & not be to pessimistic.

Put me down for 45 points. What do you guys think?

I'm down & I won't even try & hide it.

It's not because we're losing, I can live with that. It's not even how we are losing, because the last two games at least I feel as though the team has tried to compete.

No, what I'm down about is that I don't see our team haveing any form of direction or any sense of what kind of team this is.

I have nothing against Peja at all. But I just don't see how he fits into the style of play that goes on in the East. In E.C. playoff basketball it gets down to hand to hand grind it out combat in the paint & I just wonder how he will do in that system.

Ok, let's not blame him for a min. let me ask it this way, how will his team mates help him in that style of game?

They keep saying compare him to Reggie, fine, but we would set 2-3 screens for Reggie & he would still run off of a pick to get his shot. Our team does not have the fundamental skills to do this.

I'm not blaming Peja btw I am saying right now at the top, whoever that is, our team is not balanced & has not been for years.

I am scared people because of something someone (forgive me I don't remember who) else said in another post. That is that we do not have the tools to trade with other than players we wouldn't want to give up.

Jamaal, love him or hate him, has about zero tradeability because of his injurys.

Cro's contract.

Jackson could be packaged with someone but his attitude is well known so you are not going to get back a young prodigy like some of you would like.

Fred Jones has a moderate trade value. I doubt you could even get a draft pick for him at the moment.

Foster could still bring in something but not as much as he could have a year or two ago because of his back.

A.J. is a good role player with to big of a contract. Like Jax he could be used in a package.

Peja, Saras, Pollard can all be free agents after this season.

Ed Gill, please

Jermaine O'Neal. You are not going to get anything for him other than as a massive package for Garnett & that is only if they will trade him. He makes to much money for anybody other than another max player or a team below the cap who is willing to give up some young talent & I don't see them lining up. Not to mention his injury's.

David Harrison. Sad to say what are you really going to get from him? Would it be better than what he could be? I don't know the answer to this btw. We need a real center in the worst of ways & right now I'd say David is a little behind where I thought he would be.

This leaves us Danny Granger. Untouchable or he better damn well be unless a superstar comes rolling in & he has to be used to get him & even then I would have to think about it.

What makes it even worse is that the East is so lousy that we will not finish low enough to be a true lottery team.

This was the quandry of the late 80's early 90's Pacers teams. We would never finish high enough to get a great player in the draft. We would get 4-5 good players over that time frame but no great player. Thus leaving you mediocre.

The worst thing in the world is mediocrity. I'm not kidding, this is poison & something I had hoped we wouldn't see again for years.

Maybe I should just scrap this whole post because it is more negative than I really want to be.

Let me say it again, I am NOT upset at the current team or the way they are playing. I just am not happy & honestly have no confidence in TPTB to set a differant direction for this team.

Let me move on.

Can we have an honest talk about Saras without it turning into a European vs American style of basketball argument?

From what I've seen from him this season I think he's pretty good. He is a great passer, has a great sense of where people are on the floor & can have a lazer like shot from beyond the arc. His defense is not the worst thing I've ever seen although he will never be confused with Gary Payton.

But here is the problem. I don't see him as any kind of special player. Now that is not a slam btw, it's just an observation.

Yes we play a horrid style for him, yes our team has been a dysfuntional mess, yes Rick Carlisle has probably screwed him over a time or two.

But at the end of the day don't special players over come that stuff? I mean when he came over they were calling him the European Michael Jordan. That's not a fair analogy for anybody to over come btw, but I just don't see it. I don't even see him as anything more than a good point guard.

Is that a bad thing btw? I don't think so, however I think the Pacers were expecting a little more. Now in fairness to him, this team is a mess so to expect anything from anybody is not fair really.

Again could we please not turn this into a style of play debate, please.

Even before he went down with the head injury I was asking "what the hell is wrong with Croshere"?

This guy has not played a good game for almost 2 weeks. Has he hit a wall? If he has, how is this possible? The guy is a pro & has been one for almost 10 years his body should be conditioned for this even if he was used to being a backup.

He has played like a zombie just hangin out at the 3 point line for awhile now. Is he really p!ssed that he was rumored to be moved with Ron?

I hate Brendan Haywood. Every d@mn time we play that guy he rips us like he is some form of an all-star. I wouldn't feel bad if he did this to everybody but every other time I see the guy he sucks.

The Diamond one & myself were talking after the game as I was pointing out to him how the Pacers tv announcers (studio for the most part) were in full "let's look on the bright side" mode. Patz was talking about the great play of Scot Pollard when I began lecturing him on how bad I hate that & hated it back in the 80's.

I was even telling him how much I missed Satan in the studio to tell me about the lack of effort.

But then he reminded me, they weren't griping at the Pacers for lack of effort because they were playing to thier expectations.

In other words our core players right now (A.J., Jax, Peja, Cro & Hulk) just aren't really that good. They aren't expected to win that many games anymore.

This depressed me.

It depressed me because he was right. The truth is, talent wise, we are worse than any other team in the east that is in the playoffs right now & I fully believe that the Bulls will pass us by.

What is sad is that right now I just don't know how we get out of this one.

I'm sorry guys, I don't mean to be so down but right now I just don't see a bright future for us.

Bball
02-01-2006, 02:30 AM
The worst thing in the world is mediocrity. I'm not kidding, this is poison & something I had hoped we wouldn't see again for years.

Well, considering our record over the past few games I think maybe your fears can be laid to rest. We're staring up at mediocre right now.

:cry:

That said, I fear that what will ultimately be done to 'fix' the team will land us squarely in mediocrity and it is there we'll wallow far too long as we hear the words "patience" and "you don't make trades for the sake of trades" over and over and over and over again.... We'll make a few steps forward from where we are and then wait. Then let something fester and slip. Then wait a while and address that finally. Then wait some more.

But right now, just becoming a mediocre team would be an improvement.

Explain to me again why we needed to start breaking up the team in 99? What was that fear again? Was it that we'd maybe get another Finals crack or two at LA but with no real shot to beat the mighty Shaq and then we'd fade away and become like the Celtics or some other team in their post 'contender era'?

And this is better, how?

-Bball

Will Galen
02-01-2006, 03:19 AM
But here is the problem. I don't see him as any kind of special player. Now that is not a slam btw, it's just an observation.


I've never heard anyone say hes a great player. His rep is he's a winner, and he leads. Right now he's not the leader because Rick is using him as a backup.

One thing I saw tonight that I didn't like is twice Dan was isolated and he looked like JO or Jax holding the ball. That's a habit I DO NOT want him picking up!

lenin_fresh
02-01-2006, 03:22 AM
I stopped watching the Pacers for a couple of years after the 1999 team was broken up because I was so angry about the Dale Davis trade (I was 15, what do you expect?). Anyway, I'm feeling a lot of the same feelings about this team, I wont stop watching this time, but I'm definately disappointed in how this season is turning out. I also wouldn't mind seeing the old court come back, and maybe the pinstripe jerseys.

I guess I'm another one of the "We need to rebuild" people.

Will Galen
02-01-2006, 03:24 AM
Explain to me again why we needed to start breaking up the team in 99? What was that fear again? Was it that we'd maybe get another Finals crack or two at LA but with no real shot to beat the mighty Shaq and then we'd fade away and become like the Celtics or some other team in their post 'contender era'?

And this is better, how?

-Bball

Come on Bball, I agree with you on your fears for this team and what will happen, but I'm tired of hearing about the past! Everyone's heard it, everyone's taken sides, enough already!

Please!

SwissExpress
02-01-2006, 03:50 AM
Great post, and very interesting to read as I have no possibility to see enough of Pacers games to have a strong opinion about every Pacers player, particularly those playing 15 minutes or less.

But from what I have seen, I just don't think that overall assesment should be so negative right now. They have at least fixed the "giving up" thing. Now they just need to decide on the changes with the playing system. It's too soon. I don't think Carlisle had nearly enough practice time to decide where to put Peja. Thus he needs some of that time on court.

As for Saras - the man is very emotional and never was on a team below .500. He must be in depression mood now or smth;)

PS: I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago gets in front of Pacers, at least for some time. They are looking really good right now and have beaten Dallas tonight.

SwissExpress
02-01-2006, 03:57 AM
No, I think I just believed it too soon - they haven't beaten Dallas:)

Lithfan
02-01-2006, 04:14 AM
But what are you expecting from your team when four best players (Tinsley, O'neal, Artest, Forster) are not playing? When there is such Artest problem? How would Pistons do if Billups and both Wallaces were injured and Prince demanded a trade?
They would broke-up and thats what happening to Indiana right now.
I think that that Indiana is doing better than any team in this situation. Because we are deep...

Hicks
02-01-2006, 06:13 AM
Regarding Austin, has his sluggish play coincided with the first concussion he got?

Moving on, no things are not bright and cheery in Pacerland right now, but would you have said these things if we'd hit about 6 more shots last night and won?

I think collectively Pacers fans move with the wind too much. We just added a new player to the mix. We're missing two of our best players. Cro is a zombie. We're adding new plays in January. It's completely understandable that things are a mess right now. But they do not look to be un-fixable.

Hicks
02-01-2006, 06:15 AM
But what are you expecting from your team when four best players (Tinsley, O'neal, Artest, Forster) are not playing? When there is such Artest problem? How would Pistons do if Billups and both Wallaces were injured and Prince demanded a trade?
They would broke-up and thats what happening to Indiana right now.
I think that that Indiana is doing better than any team in this situation. Because we are deep...

Artest is not a Pacer so I would not mention the fact that he's "out" as the issue now. We got a player for him, and he's here now.

I forgot to mention Foster being out too in my last post. He's a significant loss too. So yeah, when you add all of the factors I listed above with the facct that all of these pieces are missing, is it any shock we're struggling in mediocrity? It shouldn't be. Take away Foster-level big man from another team, and two of their 3 best players away, including their star player, and see how well they do. This should not surprise anybody. Nor should it suggest this is what this team would be like when these things are addressed.

DisplacedKnick
02-01-2006, 06:36 AM
Ok, let's start this early.

I'm tempted to say Kobe breaks Wilts record tonight against us but I'll try & not be to pessimistic.

Put me down for 45 points. What do you guys think?


Well, he got to rest against us so ...

The Pacers are in a world of hurt right now without JO. I just don't see how you survive that this year. Your scorers will be SJax and Peja. Harrison can't stay on the floor enough to give you anything from the post.

But look at the bright side - you could be Knick fans!

able
02-01-2006, 06:59 AM
The main problem as I see it is that we have at least 2 "key"players out and trying to insert a new key player into the lineup.
Because we had these problems for 2 years now, starting last season if you don't count the ECF loss the year before, which I don't because of the nature of an ECF, but 2 years ago we dealt with some injuries, like very team has them, however due to the brawl, we had personelle problems as in not enough players on the floor, so we rushed players that were injured back, with as a result aggrevation of the injury and/or creating other nagging injuries due to that, so much that players are now considered injury prone by fans, while they are simply not.
Tinsley last year: foot injury, mis-diagnosed, rushed back, aggrevated, gone.
JO shoulder, playing at 60% in the playoffs, needing the full summer to recover, not fully ready yet for start of season.
Jeff, so badly abused last year in forcing him back that he needed new surgery, trying to do the good thing by keeping him out this year, but ......

Then Ron happened (again), so there we were, we needed the other starting 4 on the floor to keep things up, jamaal rushed back (with no power whatsoever in his shooting arm); result injury aggrevation
Jo tweaks ankle, rushed back; result Groin Tear.
Jeff rushed back, result; back spasms and tweaks.

If we could just accept the time needed to recover for these players and get them back when really ready and healthy, we would be a very good team at the other end of the waiting period.

JO out is a great loss. obviously on all parts of the floor, but not in the least on defense.
Jamaal out kills the offense, with all due respect to AJ and Saras, neither of them is a starting caliber PG in this league, hold the fort guys be patient, the starter will come back., let's just hope they don't rush him again, te main problem being the willingness of those guys to do the forced return with all risks involved.

Let's relax, use the time at hand to play Danny and Hulk, get them used to playing, and we most likely will be able to go on enough of a tear in the latter stage of the season to make the playoffs in place 6 or 7, neither being that bad seeding wise as we would avoid the Pistons till the ECF 6 would be nice for that :D

There is no knowing what this team is capable of, we haven't seen them on the floor together for the better part of 2 years.
Patience my learned friends, we will get there.

And yes; Tinsley is way more important to this team then anyone of you gives him credit for and the injuries he had are really no indication whatsoever that he is injury prone.
In fact there are only 2 injuries over the lat 2 seasons, which happen to be the mis-diagnosed foot and the current biceps one, which because of the rush back has caused other problems.

Give it time, we will get there.

btowncolt
02-01-2006, 07:22 AM
This is why I don't do recaps. I just don't care enough to write something like that. I'll leave it to Peck only in the future.

indygeezer
02-01-2006, 07:23 AM
Remember my thread of a couple weeks back? "Welcome to the 80's"? This is exactly what I was hinting at.....losing and mediocrity. Your analysis of the tradeable players is spot on, unfortunately. Teams might be willing to take a chance on trading for one of our guys as long as we are winning, but put a few losses around them and they become untradeable.

This is what I always thought of as the Pistons of the Lanier era. One Great player surrounded by enough to make them mediocre, until they got lucky enough to draft Zeke.

Now, having said all that, we do not know the grand scheme of things. Is there some sort of "Master Plan" or is it "throw the spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks"?

PEck...it appears to me that the Pistons have gone to more of a Spurs type game, isn't it possible that that is where we're headed too? And if so, wouldn't Peja fit better then? That is not to say tho that the Pistons won't revert to old form come the PO's. But they do have a new coach who really isn't that "aware" of the old form and being a West conf. guy he may not use the pound it in ball then. So, are we working toward that style ourselves and are merely hampered by all of the injuries? Remember too, our guys WILL be back NEXT year, so it isn't like we'd be mired in the mud with this same group year after year.
JO, TIns, Jeff, and Jax have shown the ability to wins some games. So don't expect us to be failures from the start next season.

Come over to the sunshine Peck, I'm sure I've got an extra pair of rose-colored sunglasses somewhere.

Will Galen
02-01-2006, 07:31 AM
Remember too, our guys WILL be back NEXT year, so it isn't like we'd be mired in the mud with this same group year after year.

If they're not injured next year.

Unclebuck
02-01-2006, 07:34 AM
Could we please do something, please, this is really not too much to ask. Stop referring back to 2000, that was 6 years ago. (even if we did "keep the team together" it wouldn't be together now anyway) SO PLEASE DROP IT NOW.

I lost my train of thought

RWB
02-01-2006, 07:34 AM
I can see why you're down Peck, but as others have posted we have too many guys down right now to think this is the look the team planned on being.

One thing that has been brought up by many members and really disturbs me is the proper training of David Harrison. I've seen this on short tv bytes many times and I wonder if this is how David is being schooled? I love Chuck Person and how he's always considered himself to be a PAcer, but when did he become a low post teacher? Next time you see a clip on practice, look whos working with Harrision. Chuck was shooter, I know he's big boned now but how in the world can the P's think he's going to teach Harrison how to play big?

I think UB mentioned it before, we need someone like Tree Rollins back.

Doug in CO
02-01-2006, 08:17 AM
Peck - I have reached many of your same conclussions. Without rehashing them - let's look back at 94 and see what broke us out of the 41-41 mold.

1) A new, great coach in LB
2) A steady PG in Workman
3) And we got lucky with Antonio - a second round pick who had spent a year or two in Europe

I really think major changes are coming - with the coaching staff, personnel, etc.... so I am beyond getting angry. Is it depressing... sure? But less so every day.

Strany
02-01-2006, 08:24 AM
because I do not understand what TPTB big picture looks like. We have aquired Dano, Saunas and Peja in the last year. I think DG is a very special player that could excel in almost any system you put him in, but do Sarunas
and Peja fit with Rick's system? Seems to me it is the old square peg, round hole thing.
If TPTB want Rick to continue coaching next year and beyond, wouldn't you start finally surrounding him with the type of players that can
excel in Rick's system? Maybe Rick's system is so complex that Sarunas and Peja really do fit, but Rick, Donnie and LB are the only ones who can see it.
Maybe next year, it will all become clear and I will have on of those moments where I go...Ah! Ha! I get it, yes TPTB are brilliant.

DisplacedKnick
02-01-2006, 08:38 AM
If they're not injured next year.

Yeah - not to hijack a thread but I have a new answer whenever someone posts, "Brad Miller being injured at some point in the season is inevitable."

Response, "Just like JO."

btowncolt
02-01-2006, 08:47 AM
Could we please do something, please, this is really not too much to ask. Stop referring back to 2000, that was 6 years ago. (even if we did "keep the team together" it wouldn't be together now anyway) SO PLEASE DROP IT NOW.

I lost my train of thought

While we're requesting things of people (and my request has nothing to do with this particular thread), can people just drop the word "hater" from their forum vocabulary? Your post automatically drops into the negative IQ range if you try to use it in any manner. Except to criticize its use.

btowncolt
02-01-2006, 08:48 AM
Yeah - not to hijack a thread but I have a new answer whenever someone posts, "Brad Miller being injured at some point in the season is inevitable."

Response, "Just like JO."

Or, "Just like (Insert Pacers player making more than 5 million a year here)"

diamonddave00
02-01-2006, 08:53 AM
As I watched last night I was quite impressed by the fact that Peja went inside so much, he shot 10 free throws not bad for a soft 3point shooter as most see him. He cut well without the ball , I thought he played well for his first game. His line was much like a Reggie Miller line 10fga's 17 points.

Danny Granger continues to show that he has the makings of a very good nba player with a bright future.

Hopefully Stephen Jackson , will be a little more into the games from here on out.

Sarunas lacks great athletic ability but he plays every night with heart.

Fred needs to stay on the bench as this team is currently made up his offense is needed with the 2nd unit (all 3 or 4 guys that make it up).

Scot Pollard gave good effort 7 points , 12 boards is outstanding for him. If Harrison could just finish stronger inside his confidence would improve.

Austin , I'm not sure if its concussions or what but he has looked lifeless the majority of the games of late.

Jeff Foster it appears is never going to be healthy all season, Anthony Johnson is what he is a 15-18 minute a night backup point guard.

Hopefully the revised 4-6 weeks possibility of Jermaine's return is closer to 4 weeks, the Pacers need him inside , even if its just to block shots and board (not even considering his 22 ppg). Jamaal Tinsley -will he ever be healthy?

Even the most optimistic Pacer fan has to be seriously questioning if this bunch can even make the playoffs. But a weak draft is no incentive to miss the playoffs , I'd rather make the playoffs and pick 21st than miss and pick 15 the talent in the draft has no real can't misses even in the top 5.

SwissExpress
02-01-2006, 08:54 AM
Peck: you said that Saras can be a free agent after this season. Are you sure, and if yes, what exactly Saras's contract looks like (does he have player option for the two last years of the contract, has the team any option, etc)?

I was rather sure that he has a 3-year 12 mln. contract without either team nor player options (4 mln each year) ...

Slick Pinkham
02-01-2006, 09:14 AM
Saras is locked in for 3 years at 4 mil/year, no team or player options.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/indiana.htm

I think we do need to give him enough of a chance this year to decide if he should stay during the trades Larry and Donnie make to restructure the team.

naptownmenace
02-01-2006, 09:45 AM
Regarding Austin, has his sluggish play coincided with the first concussion he got?

Moving on, no things are not bright and cheery in Pacerland right now, but would you have said these things if we'd hit about 6 more shots last night and won?

I think collectively Pacers fans move with the wind too much. We just added a new player to the mix. We're missing two of our best players. Cro is a zombie. We're adding new plays in January. It's completely understandable that things are a mess right now. But they do not look to be un-fixable.

Agreed. I predicted the Pacers would lose last night. I expect them to lose tonight as well before things get any better. Injuries have totally robbed them of their depth and If AC misses any significant time... the Pacers are really sunk.

The Pacers need another trade in the worst way. They need some guys that can score and a quick PG that can push the tempo. It also wouldn't hurt to give Marcus Fizer a good look with a 10-day contract.

McKeyFan
02-01-2006, 10:01 AM
I've never heard anyone say hes a great player. His rep is he's a winner, and he leads. Right now he's not the leader because Rick is using him as a backup.

I've got some other thoughts on that.

I don't think Saras has been given a decent, lengthy chance at spreading his wings, making some things happen out there, creating opportunities, driving, slashing, etc.

Basically, as soon as he makes a mistake or two, he is yanked. This being the case, as many can notice, he plays a bit scared. He brings the ball up and immediately looks to hand it to Freddy, almost like a kid in Sunday School bringing his nickel for the collection plate.

Now, the syndrome created here is that since Saras is not allowed to make mistakes, he is never in a position to relax, get loose, and begin to really develop as a "Special player" as Peck dubbed it.

If I were the coach, I would spend a few games making Saras a primary option, running plays for him, allowing him to take 20 or so shots a game. I'd let him shoot 30 percent from the floor for two or three games. If after five he hasn't shown something special, then I would move on.

But we need to find something special somewhere. I completely agree with Peck. This is the only strategy I can think of to see it emerge. It was our big move in the offseason and we still haven't given it an honest chance because we have the infamous Curry-over-Prince coach named Carlisle.

I like Carlisle, but Dude, you've got to take some risks.

ChicagoJ
02-01-2006, 10:04 AM
Remember the old "I like PGs that can Point" discussion from a couple season's ago?

I'd like Saras to stop pointing, shut up, and play.

So far what little he's shown me on the court has been nullified by his mouth. If Andre Rison wasn't already "CNN" for talking 24/7, I'd give that name to Saras.

SwissExpress
02-01-2006, 10:17 AM
I never understood this phobia of talking players...

EDIT: I know, that phobias are mostly irrational, so there's usually nothing to understand but their sources, but this particular phobia appears to be mixed with some rational discussion behind it, which seems totally chaotic and fragmented to me however.

Lithfan
02-01-2006, 10:17 AM
Saras is locked in for 3 years at 4 mil/year, no team or player options.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/indiana.htm

I think we do need to give him enough of a chance this year to decide if he should stay during the trades Larry and Donnie make to restructure the team.

Look at the Hicks starting poll:
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18823
Most people here would like to start Saras and not only to decide if he gonna stay.

What I don't get is why Rick is stuck to defensive basketball when it is clear that it has to be run and gun team with JO out.

I also don't get why Jax is playing at all!!! The guy shoots less than 40% in last 5 games! And he is such a black hole.

I'm positively shocked by Fred. He is such a great player! He should be playing instead of Jacko.

I hope huge reconstruction is going to happen. And sooner the better.

RWB
02-01-2006, 10:20 AM
I'd like Saras to stop pointing, shut up, and play.


At least he cares Jay. I wonder about the rest of the team?

DeS
02-01-2006, 10:22 AM
Remember the old "I like PGs that can Point" discussion from a couple season's ago?

I'd like Saras to stop pointing, shut up, and play.

So far what little he's shown me on the court has been nullified by his mouth. If Andre Rison wasn't already "CNN" for talking 24/7, I'd give that name to Saras.

Isn't he playing? At least some of You are saying that he is one of the players who play with heart every game (and allways in the game (i.e. playing)). Did he said something again? Maybe I'm missing something, but after that "don't want to play SG" he didn't said nothing wrong (only short pieces to answer some media questions). But, maybe I missed something.

Lithfan
02-01-2006, 10:25 AM
Remember the old "I like PGs that can Point" discussion from a couple season's ago?

I'd like Saras to stop pointing, shut up, and play.

So far what little he's shown me on the court has been nullified by his mouth. If Andre Rison wasn't already "CNN" for talking 24/7, I'd give that name to Saras.

Ohhhhhh

Someone should talk don't you think?

And better it be someone intelligent instead of "hoopla" or Artest talk.

SwissExpress
02-01-2006, 10:29 AM
Who is "hoopla"?

Skaut_Ech
02-01-2006, 10:31 AM
I've got some other thoughts on that.

I don't think Saras has been given a decent, lengthy chance at spreading his wings, making some things happen out there, creating opportunities, driving, slashing, etc.

Basically, as soon as he makes a mistake or two, he is yanked. This being the case, as many can notice, he plays a bit scared. He brings the ball up and immediately looks to hand it to Freddy, almost like a kid in Sunday School bringing his nickel for the collection plate.

Now, the syndrome created here is that since Saras is not allowed to make mistakes, he is never in a position to relax, get loose, and begin to really develop as a "Special player" as Peck dubbed it.

If I were the coach, I would spend a few games making Saras a primary option, running plays for him, allowing him to take 20 or so shots a game. I'd let him shoot 30 percent from the floor for two or three games. If after five he hasn't shown something special, then I would move on.

But we need to find something special somewhere. I completely agree with Peck. This is the only strategy I can think of to see it emerge. It was our big move in the offseason and we still haven't given it an honest chance because we have the infamous Curry-over-Prince coach named Carlisle.

I like Carlisle, but Dude, you've got to take some risks.

:tip: :grinyes:


I noticed a couple of times where Saras threw the ball into the post, then the post player proceeded to force his way through a double team as Saras yelled and clapped his hands as he stood on the three point arc.

Sara wants to be the decisive floor general.....LET HIM! Force him into situations where he's the POINT GUARD, not a poor man's Eric Piatkowski.

I want to comment on so much more, but I have to run.

A few things:

-Do some reading on Kareem and his low post coaching. Harrison absolutely, positively needs a REAL low post coach.

-Peja.is.going.to.work.out.fine. As long as people keep comparing him to Ron, he'll always come up short, because we want the D we got from Ron to come from Peja. Let Peja be Peja. He can be like Ginobilli to Duncan, like Rip to Rasheed. He'll be fine.

-Geezer...bingo!! I loved your Spurs model comment about the Pistons. I've been thinking the same thing. :2tup: It's part of the reason I'm not overly concerned. I think adding a banger bigman (Zendon Hamilton just got realeased, I think, frex) will do wonders for this team. I am NOT of the rebuilding mindset at all. Sure there's guys I'd like for us to trade, but overall, I think putting the spotlight on Saras to LEAD this team, utilizing our non scoring lunkheads as effective screeners ala Reggie used to get and a low post banger helps us a bunch.

Spurs and Pistons have the strong D, but their offensive model is to throw a bunch of low post gamers at you, then kill you with well timed threes. We can do that. We need to do that.

Yeah, I can glimpse the bad, old 80's in my rear view mirror, but I don't think it's going to happen. :talktothe

Face it. This is a lost season, but I don't think we need any retooling other
than this team taking a collecting itself, taking a l,ong breath and refocusing and that especially includes Rick. He needs to really access this team based upon personalities along with on court strengths. :twocents:

MagicRat
02-01-2006, 10:37 AM
Look at the Hicks starting poll:
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18823
Most people here would like to start Saras and not only to decide if he gonna stay.

Sarunas should start until Jamaal is ready to return. That first unit needs someone who can at least attempt to create some easy shots for them.......

Hicks
02-01-2006, 10:38 AM
I still am amazed how much Saras' mouth bothers people. You'd think it was Stephen Jackson the way he gets referred to.

Lithfan
02-01-2006, 11:36 AM
Who is "hoopla"?
Johnson :)))
said something like: "All hoopla around Saras"
Seemed to me low.
May be I'm wrong

Doug in CO
02-01-2006, 11:41 AM
I still am amazed how much Saras' mouth bothers people. You'd think it was Stephen Jackson the way he gets referred to.

I actually like the fact that he tries to direct traffic out there

SwissExpress
02-01-2006, 11:43 AM
Johnson :)))
said something like: "All hoopla around Saras"
Seemed to me low.
May be I'm wrong

In which context did he say that? Did he mean "publicity" by "hoopla" or smth else?

ChicagoJ
02-01-2006, 11:44 AM
He's a rookie.

His display in the Sixers game during the first week really showed me that he's got no clue that he's a rookie. A very, very bad first impression, with me at least. He's "bossy". But he's not the boss.

And the whole pouting-about-playing-SG and his backhanded comments about his teammates and NBA-vs.-Euro style ball were 100% out of line for a rookie.

He hasn't done anywhere near enough on the court to justify putting up with his attitude.

The fact that he's better than AJ and Gill isn't a glowing endorsement of how he's played... AJ drives most of us bonkers anyway.

Now, I wouldn't recommend giving him "floor general" status. I don't care for Rick's controlling tendencies, but I don't trust these players to make good decisions, either. But I also acknowledge that it might work.

We don't really know what Saras' teammates think of his mouth. I happen to think that they don't respect him because he hasn't earned any respect yet. But perhaps I'm wrong.

Kestas
02-01-2006, 11:48 AM
Is that a bad thing btw? I don't think so, however I think the Pacers were expecting a little more.

the rest of the world expected a little more from the Pacers ;)

all in all this is a screwed up year for Lithuanian rookies in NBA. two of our best players hands down - Macijauskas and Saras - come to NBA to become an average god-knows-what (shooter???) in the most dissapointing team (so far) of the year (Saras) and a bench hugger with an idiot for a coach (Macijauskas). this is not even funny. I won't even mention Andriuskevicius, who made a childish mistake going there. at least Kleiza appears to have landed in the right place.

really, Saras is not playing his game imho. he isn't. he's working out there. I still believe things should improve. however, if they don't, Saras may even leave NBA for the European club imho. even though the money issue would be enormous, some clubs would probably do it (?)

beast23
02-01-2006, 11:58 AM
Face it. This is a lost season, but I don't think we need any retooling other than this team taking a collecting itself, taking a l,ong breath and refocusing and that especially includes Rick. He needs to really access this team based upon personalities along with on court strengths. :twocents:This is definitely another lost season. You are totally right about Rick. He should use the rest of this season to figure out what he's got and how best to use them.

But I think an important aspect of the evaluation is to get our players healthy and on the court. We've got to get Jermaine and Tinsley in the mix to be able to determine how the pieces are going to fit together.

And quite frankly, if we can't get that evaluation done by the end of the season, I fear that we may end up losing yet another year. If we do get the evaluation done, then surely a few changes will be made.

Viewing things from the rebuild perspective, I can understand where that viewpoint comes from. For at least next 2-3 years, we are giong to be a #4 seed at best, because we aren't going to get around the Pistons... at least not that soon.

So, if that is the case, should we go ahead and rebuild? Or do we do the best we can and hop that somebody else in the EC can do us a favor and beat the Pistons in the playoffs, possibly opening a door for us?

Bball
02-01-2006, 12:37 PM
Come on Bball, I agree with you on your fears for this team and what will happen, but I'm tired of hearing about the past! Everyone's heard it, everyone's taken sides, enough already!

Please!

Point being that that period was totally mishandled and has led us directly to here... exactly what we were (supposedly) trying to avoid.

-Bball

ChicagoJ
02-01-2006, 12:46 PM
If you don't learn from your mistakes, you are doomed to repeat them.

Lithfan
02-01-2006, 04:21 PM
In which context did he say that? Did he mean "publicity" by "hoopla" or smth else?
Here it is:
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18831
He meant exagerated interest/publicity I guess...
I guess Jay is angry at Saras mostly because some of european posters told stories that were published outside US. You judge Saras as a rookie, but in Europe he is MVP. Therefore he speeks as one. And the fact that he is in US doesn't matter since Media is global.

Peck
02-01-2006, 04:29 PM
Could we please do something, please, this is really not too much to ask. Stop referring back to 2000, that was 6 years ago. (even if we did "keep the team together" it wouldn't be together now anyway) SO PLEASE DROP IT NOW.

I lost my train of thought


As long as you never refer to the 61 win season I can go along with this. Well, maybe.:D

Peck
02-01-2006, 04:35 PM
Regarding Austin, has his sluggish play coincided with the first concussion he got?

Moving on, no things are not bright and cheery in Pacerland right now, but would you have said these things if we'd hit about 6 more shots last night and won?

I think collectively Pacers fans move with the wind too much. We just added a new player to the mix. We're missing two of our best players. Cro is a zombie. We're adding new plays in January. It's completely understandable that things are a mess right now. But they do not look to be un-fixable.

See I don't think I'm that way at all.

I am not complaining about the here & now. I am worried about the direction & vision of this team.

What are we? Are we a low post team? Are we a half-court team? Are we a free wheeling motion offense team?

Take every single injured player and put them into the mix & then answer me this. Is that lineup good enough to win an NBA title?

F- J.O.
F- Peja
C- ?
G- Jax
G- Tins.

Put Foster, Harrison or Pollard at center it doesn't matter to me. Is that group good enough?

I don't think it is.

God we desperately need a banger down low.

To me that is a mix & match hodge podge of talent without any real direction.

If someone could just give me the direction I would feel better, but as of now I don't see it.

ChicagoJ
02-01-2006, 04:41 PM
Here it is:
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18831
He meant exagerated interest/publicity I guess...
I guess Jay is angry at Saras mostly because some of european posters told stories that were published outside US. You judge Saras as a rookie, but in Europe he is MVP. Therefore he speeks as one. And the fact that he is in US doesn't matter since Media is global.

I don't care about Europe. This is the NBA; he's an unproven rookie at this level, and there's nothing a global media changes about that fact.

He should be carrying guy's duffle bags and fetching their doughnuts and coffee, not complaining about his role (when asked to play SG and given an opportunity to succeed), not complain about his teammates to the foreign press, and not spending so much of his time defensively telling everyone else where to go that he forgets to guard KYLE FREAKING KORVER in the corner.

He's got dues to pay. Just because he was MVP in another league doesn't give him a free pass. Maybe if he had already established himself as a first-team all-NBA candidate then he could get a pass, but if Tinsley had been healthy all along (yes, I know the chances of that are 0%), he's clearly not the PG that Tinsley (when healthy) is.

Tinsley and AJ were certainly happier (and doing just fine I might add) without him. If Saras had come in and tried to fit into the team, instead of trying to take over immediately, maybe we wouldn't be all over these other guys for their attitudes this season. Where there's smoke, there is fire.

able
02-01-2006, 05:07 PM
I don't care about Europe. This is the NBA; he's an unproven rookie at this level, and there's nothing a global media changes about that fact.

He should be carrying guy's duffle bags and fetching their doughnuts and coffee, not complaining about his role (when asked to play SG and given an opportunity to succeed), not complain about his teammates to the foreign press, and not spending so much of his time defensively telling everyone else where to go that he forgets to guard KYLE FREAKING KORVER in the corner.

He's got dues to pay. Just because he was MVP in another league doesn't give him a free pass. Maybe if he had already established himself as a first-team all-NBA candidate then he could get a pass, but if Tinsley had been healthy all along (yes, I know the chances of that are 0%), he's clearly not the PG that Tinsley (when healthy) is.

Tinsley and AJ were certainly happier (and doing just fine I might add) without him. If Saras had come in and tried to fit into the team, instead of trying to take over immediately, maybe we wouldn't be all over these other guys for their attitudes this season. Where there's smoke, there is fire.


Hear Hear :highfive:

DeS
02-01-2006, 06:01 PM
I don't care about Europe. This is the NBA; he's an unproven rookie at this level, and there's nothing a global media changes about that fact.
Well, ok, he is or he is not an unproven rookie (I doubt it taking into account the last news). But the things are going on (media seeks Saras) and this proves that You may be wrong here.


He should be carrying guy's duffle bags and fetching their doughnuts and coffee, not complaining about his role (when asked to play SG and given an opportunity to succeed)
But this was weeks (or month) ago, why to bring this again? After that event he didn't anything similar.


not complain about his teammates to the foreign press
Where HE was complaining about his teammates to the foreign press??


Tinsley and AJ were certainly happier (and doing just fine I might add) without him. If Saras had come in and tried to fit into the team, instead of trying to take over immediately, maybe we wouldn't be all over these other guys for their attitudes this season. Where there's smoke, there is fire.
Maybe, but as we see - this team was desperately needed new point guard. And I don't think AJ and Tins would be happy with some other strong PG. Imho the problems would be same.

ChicagoJ
02-01-2006, 06:40 PM
This team didn't desparately need a new PG. They desparately need a healthy, happy Tinsley.

Jermaniac
02-01-2006, 06:47 PM
I agree with Jay on everything he said in this thread. Ohh God I'm scared.

Larry messed up signing this guy, we where fine last 2 years with Tins and AJ, he should have went hard after Dale or another big man. Sure would be nice if we had a Dale or Reggie Evans on our team now.

ChicagoJ
02-01-2006, 06:51 PM
What is this world coming to?

Bball agrees with UncleBuck (traitor), and you agree with me.

I don't know what else to say, except :yikes:


:woot2:

DeS
02-01-2006, 07:34 PM
This team didn't desparately need a new PG. They desparately need a healthy, happy Tinsley.
Exactly my point. Why some are screaming that this team needs quick, good starting caliber PG. As TPTB said - the new PG is an insurance to the Tinsley injuries. As we see now - they were right, it's a rare moment to see healthy and happy Tinsley.

Bball
02-01-2006, 08:25 PM
What is this world coming to?

Bball agrees with UncleBuck (traitor), and you agree with me.

I don't know what else to say, except :yikes:


:woot2:

Well, I have an excuse. I'm sick. I've been watching the game with my coat on... in the living room.. due to chills. I imagine this cough and congestion might be cutting off oxygen to my brain. At least halftime gave me a chance to grab a blanket.

-Bball