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View Full Version : Are injuries related to conditioning/training staff?



TheLemonSong
01-31-2006, 08:42 AM
The Pacers have had more injuries in the past few years than I have seen on any one team in a long time...especially this year...
This year is the first year without David Craig and the Pacers have a brand new strength and conditioning staff..anyone think that their inexperience of Shawn Windle and Josh Corbeil is adding to this injury bug?

microwave_oven
01-31-2006, 10:34 AM
who knows?? Craig is still around though, so I don't see why.

able
01-31-2006, 10:37 AM
I've been thinking quite a while now about writing something about the injury wave that has hit us over the past two year.
Not exactly related to the staff and whether they are or are not competent, because to be fairly honest with that, I am unable to judge their capacity, and without knowing anything at all of what they are actually doing I refuse to even look there, especially since there are in my opinion easier conclusions to make, for once without blaming people, no matter who.
Now that makes a total change for this board as of late, I know, but still it is a concept we all should consider now and then, makes reading opinions so much more fun.

I am appalled by the consensus by which players and staff are crucified for injuries, specially players.
Something Rick said not to long ago made me think; "None of these guys WANTS to be injured"
Ain't that a fact!

Before I get to the how and what on the injury wave according to me on I'd like to make a shortlist of WHY a player does not like to be injured:

1. It is usually painful, not an exciting sort of pain, so even the best of kinks can not get anything from that.
2. It ruins your conditioning, henceforth it ruins all the good work you done prior to the injury and;
3. It causes you to have to do double work when you "get back", because you have to get back into "game shape"
4. It ruins your market-value, as a player (labels like "injury prone" or considerations about new contracts are capped lower because of the injury, GM picking steals because a player is/was injured.
5. It ruins your market-value, commercially; out of sight is out of the heart of a lot of casual fans, people have forgotten most of Ron's transgressions because he has hardly been on the court for 2 years, marketing ppl are about the now, new contracts, launches etc are all held back during an injury (player can not "perform" while out) so the over all cost can get extremely high
6. It damages "team-spirit", others have to step up for you
7. It endangers your position on the team, others can take your place, players can be brought in to replace you while you are still injured.
8. A lot of the above leads to increased stress levels, which again are bad for progress
9. It ruins the "chances" of your team, team feels "left out in the cold" and fans to.
10. It endangers your future in many ways, would be a whole new list.

So we may safely assume it does little for the "sunny disposition" of any player.

Now how come they are injured at all and why the same players over the past two years?

In order to ascertain that, we have to look first at what they reportedly did in the off-season and where applicable in the early stages of this season.

Let's just grab the 3 most visible ones, and exclude for now Scott Pollard, since his back is a special case to begin with, and Bender as well because he would be a very wrong example, his injuries are so easy explained that it hurts to know that the franchise had to go through this.
So we are left for now with JO/JT/JF.

This summer it was reported that JO when he could not yet work out "normally" he did Pilate's a lot, an adapted form, then did his "normal" workout, which is known to be a lot.
JO has his own chef, so his food is very balanced and tailored to his needs.
We may therefore assume that JO did everything plus something extra to be in the best shape humanly possible.

Jeff was operated on and under supervision of the coaching staff brought back very slowly, a work still in progress.

Jamaal got a special program over the summer, worked on it with a private coach and for the latter stages (last 4 weeks for what I can find) worked daily with Kevin O'Neill.
This was the major reason he did not come back early like most players after being asked to do so by JO.

So I assume from this we may conclude that all 3 did their fair share and came in to camp in the best shape possible under whatever the personal circumstances were.
Please not that all 3 players were injured at the end of last season, and a large part of the previous season, so we have to go back further then this summer.

Previous summers, Jamaal came back form the injuries he had in the playoffs, in what was described by Pacers staff as the best shape of his life.
JO had his first summer off and had bulked up considerable, practiced like an animal and in short looked great.
Jeff had a hip operation, but was gradually getting back in shape.

Now the 04-05 season started with among others JO, Reggie and Jeff on the bench recovering from recovery.
How well did they play ? well the game of 11-19 is almost forgotten, but not only Ron had a good game, JO had one, Jamaal had a monster setting the highest number of steals in 25 years with 8 and the game was never finished.

Then we all looked at the suspensions.




Now when we next played, not only had Jamaal to take over the leading scorer role on the team, he also had to log more minutes then was ever anticipated, in short, he had to do double shifts the rest of the season.

JO was the first to return of the big 3, and of course it now takes time to get into the routine again.
Jamaal suffered a foot injury, and what it was exactly did not become quite clear, he was "tried" after a few games rest, but it was obvious that it was still there, in fact additional checks were done after that and more rest was prescribed.
Again an attempted comeback with the same result, until finally after having missed 10 to 15 games they finally found out what it was, and another 20 games out was the result.
However, the team, now with Jax back as well was not doing so well in his absence, so all forces were gathered to get him back as soon as possible, which resulted in further aggravation and more games missed, to come back once again premature in the playoffs against Boston to save the series, leaving less and less for the series against Detroit.

JO in the meanwhile was "helped" when someone tried ripping is arm out, took his free throws, and missed a bundle of games, came back without getting back in shape in the playoffs, played at 60% and perhaps aggravated the injury, but it was going to take the entire summer anyway.

Jeff once back into the rotation played all year, be it slightly less minutes, but had to play more once David Harrisson got an injured.
Jeff not being 100% was clear from his numbers and the way he moved, but he had little choice, he was one of the last ones standing.

Austen played through minor injuries, so did Scott, so did Fred Jones.

Now anyone can tell me someone is "injury prone" once that is defined correctly it would mean that a player is easily hurt, usually that is a re-occurring injury, like weak knees, or weak ankles.
JO's injury like Jamaal's had nothing to do with that, both freak injuries, but with very long lasting results.
Even Jeff's "routine" op became a monster injury, as he was forced to do to much to quickly.

So we all had hopes for this season, after all they would all be healthy again.

By all means the season did not exactly start "ideal" with Reggie gone, every player on the team including a rookie all of a sudden had an opinion on everything and everyone, and JO had besides doing damage control on all these "interviews" to take "control" of the team.
Well he did step up to the task and took control and responsibility.

This was besides the fact that JO was behind on schedule for "game shape" as a result of his prior injury (shoulder) and Jeff not being back because his playing with it all year had necessitated another operation, so this time we were going to be more careful......

We were 10-6 when Ron got injured, no worries, Ron's always back quickly, only to never return.
Tinsley Sinus played up around that time, the same time half the team was hit with the Flu.

Now this Sinusitis is not exactly ideal for your shape, does the flu drain your strength and conditioning, sinusitis, influencing your breathing capacity and because of that disturbing your sleep patterns is devastating to "game-shape" athletes.
Nonetheless we were once again not doing brilliantly so Jamaal came back about as soon as he could breath again, but having lost some shape, was forcing the matter.
This might or might not have lead to his new injury (a torn biceps) but the type of injury os once again not a re-occurring injury, it is a "freak" injury, that with rest heals 100% without residues.

However..... in the mean time JO landed wrong and tweaked his ankle (mild sprain, in comparison, same injury as Shaq had against us, Shaq was out 5 weeks) so the team needed all the help they could find, certainly with Ron at home playing NBA live with the kids.

So both JO and Jamaal came back early............

Jo, as a result of his still lingering injury (his ankle was still swollen so he must have had pain, resulting in subconsciously making a change to your natural movements) he tore his groin.....out approx 8 weeks.
Jamaal played like crap in the 4 games he tried, but he was not healed, the fact that he shot 15% or so is witness to that, the strength in his arm was not there, resulting in either an aggravation of the earlier injury or adding a elbow injury (not described).

So in all those cases, over a stretch of 2 years our top players were not given the time to heal from injury, were the warriors the fans want to see, the guys playing with injury, through pain and everything.

But the fans forget oh so easy that this playing with an injury can be career threatening.

It has at least cost them a lot of games they would have been able to play most likely had those injuries healed for a change.
Jeff is still playing at 60% tops, but this time it looks like David will be able to play more and with Scott perhaps contemplating retirement or 1 or 2 more years with us for the vet-min, willing to play with the pain he can perhaps been given time to heal.

Even Rick now makes references to this (when he spoke about Jamaal's return) and in my opinion one can say that the circumstances (thanks Ron) have forced these actions, which in turn have harmed the players and the franchise even more.

This is just a thought, a consideration, but in light of the fact that half this board is dealing these players away, and branding them a detriment to the franchise, I thought that maybe you to could consider what these player have risked to bring you a W.

Remember that JO is the franchise player, and Jamaal by far our best PG.
Please stop manipulating numbers by saying he was out most of 03-04 as well, as he wasn't in that year he missed 5 games because of injury and a tor hamstring he played with, resulting in foot/ankle injury, and for those who remember him riding a stationary bike to stay warm during the game, I ask you, is that a player who quits on his team?

The franchise has admitted that they made errors with Jamaal's injury last year, and that he was brought back to quick as well, yet you can not respect the player who makes the effort and takes the risk to do that for the team.
It is known and printed already that JO's ankle caused this new long term injury, yet you label him as injury prone and start trading him, for players that did actually quit on their team.

It is sad that it happens, but most is caused by trying to be there for the team, the franchise and the fans, is it really so hard to consider that when you call a player names ?

If you want to blame anyone, blame the coaching staff for asking these warriors to go out on a limp and perform as best as they can, risking their future for the sake of a W.

I just sit and hope they can really heal this time and we can see our team's true potential.

bmac
01-31-2006, 10:57 AM
Why do the Pistons rarely if EVER have any of starters injured? Kind of uncanny how healthy they have been the last couple of years, I think they are way overdue for some players to hit the IR list.

RWB
01-31-2006, 11:04 AM
These thoughts wouldn't even be going through anyone's mind if not for the poor way the Bender situation was handled. It's understandable people question the training staff.

Fool
01-31-2006, 11:06 AM
The Pistons' starters haven't missed a ton of games due to injury in the last 2 years but they haven't been injury free (there have been plenty of games where one or more of the starters is playing injured, particularly the championship year). Before the last two years, the Pistons lost plenty of things (games, chances in the playoffs, etc.) do to injury.

TheLemonSong
01-31-2006, 12:22 PM
I guess I was trying to ask what the relationship was between the two if any...its understood that bad things can happen to anyone at anytime...but since the Pistons aren't getting injured, does that mean that their training/conditioning staff is superior to ours or does it speak more to the players themselves during their off time, or does it just address luck?

I think theres are too complex to answer, but 'able' that was an amazing response. Thank you.

Kstat
01-31-2006, 12:46 PM
Why do the Pistons rarely if EVER have any of starters injured? Kind of uncanny how healthy they have been the last couple of years, I think they are way overdue for some players to hit the IR list.

Maybe you aren't praying hard enough....

Moses
01-31-2006, 01:13 PM
Maybe you aren't praying hard enough....
It is kind of uncanny that we have so many injuries. It has to have something to do with the staff that works with the guys. There is no excuse for having this many injuries all the time.

waxman
01-31-2006, 01:24 PM
I beginning to wonder if the Pacers actually have a training/medical staff. :unimpress

Natston
01-31-2006, 01:34 PM
I beginning to wonder if the Pacers actually have a training/medical staff. :unimpress

It's a guy with a really big roll of duct tape and a bottle of child strength tylenol...:devil:

btowncolt
01-31-2006, 01:39 PM
It's a guy with a really big roll of duct tape and a bottle of child strength tylenol...:devil:

I don't recall telling you what I did last weekend.....




We just have a lot of easily injured players. Hard to put that off on anybody else. They do the same stretching and training room activities as anybody else.

PacerMan
01-31-2006, 03:42 PM
You guys crack me up! :)

A professional sports organization with a $70 million dollar player payroll and you think they might not know what the heck they are doing in the training dept.
TOO funny.............................

bmac
01-31-2006, 04:33 PM
Maybe you aren't praying hard enough....

Praying has nothing to do with it, you'd think the law of averages would eventually have SOMEBODY on the Pistons getting injured.

This reminds me of the those much despised Dallas Cowboy teams with Troy, Emmit and Irvin. Winning all those Super Bowls and the only time a player missed time was when Emmit Smith held out a couple of games at the begining of a season. Good grief!!

Kstat
01-31-2006, 04:36 PM
Praying has nothing to do with it, you'd think the law of averages would eventually have SOMEBODY on the Pistons getting injured.

I just flipped a coin 99 times.

It's come up heads 99 times.

Does that mean that the odds are %99 that my next flip will come up tails? Of course not. It's the same odds every time.

Secondly, you're also assuming every player has an equal chance of getting hurt, which is completely untrue.

Thirdly, it's one thing to complain about a team being too hurt, but it's kinda ridiculous to complain that another team's too healthy....like the Pistons should do something stupid on purpose to injure themselves to make you feel better, or something.

Bball
01-31-2006, 04:36 PM
Why do the Pacers have so many injuries...

Because we are patient with injury prone players and don't cut our losses and move on.

It's probably that simple.

-Bball "This flu has really got me feeling pessimistic"

bmac
01-31-2006, 10:05 PM
like the Pistons should do something stupid on purpose to injure themselves to make you feel better, or something.
I think that would be just great. I would feel better now that you mention it.

Kstat
01-31-2006, 10:06 PM
I think that would be just great. I would feel better now that you mention it.

I find that sad.

larry
01-31-2006, 10:13 PM
I watched a big 10 match-up last evening and there was a player that has been playing with a completely broken foot all season. he had a special brace made. Truth is the guy is just tough with alot of heart and I would love for him to be a Pacer rather than watch these crybaby, overpaid, talentless players we currently OVER pay!!! I am not talking about every player, but more than just a few!!!

larry
01-31-2006, 10:14 PM
I'm p*ssed!! Sorry, but did I mention over paid?!?!

Kegboy
02-01-2006, 03:24 PM
I've said it before, but we're not the only team that has ever had major injuries. Everybody *****es about the last two years, but we haven't even had one ACL.

Look at Charlotte. Okafor, Ely, Voskul, May, Wallace, Felton, Knight, Rush. Go to their webpage, and read up on how they've teamed up with a local hospital for "Get Well Soon" night. You can even send get well letters to players.

As for our problems, it's all Bird's fault for hiring Hicks' little brother (yes, he looks a little like Hicks, but younger, which is really scary.)