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Destined4Greatness
01-29-2006, 02:58 AM
In the Last 2 Seasons, 04-05 and 05-06.

Our winning record with O'neal(41-38) .519
Our winning record without O'neal (24-21)* .532
Our winning record with O'neal between suspension and Injury(04-05) (16-16) .500

* Counts the Games, where Artest and Jackson were also suspended.

So we have better winning record Without O'neal. Wierd.

And just to give you some perspective:

Our winning record with Jackson(51-40) .560
Our winning record without Jackson(14-19) .452

So not only is Jackson our most healthy Player. But unlike JO, our winning % is lower when he doesn't play. AMAZING.

Of course these standings ignore Playoffs, where they both had the same winning percentage, but one was healthy!

Believe_in_blue
01-29-2006, 03:06 AM
Blah.

Diesel_81
01-29-2006, 03:08 AM
[quote=Destined4Greatness]

And just to give you some perspective:

Our winning record with Jackson(51-40) .560
Our winning record without Jackson(14-19) .452

So not only is Jackson our most healthy Player. But unlike JO, our winning % is lower when he doesn't play. AMAZING.

quote]

A perfect example about why stats alone can be misleading.

Destined4Greatness
01-29-2006, 03:09 AM
And that is a perfect example that most Pacer fans have a hard on for JO

Believe_in_blue
01-29-2006, 03:11 AM
And that is a perfect example that most Pacer fans have a hard on for JO
Was that really appropriate?:laugh:

Destined4Greatness
01-29-2006, 03:14 AM
Was that really appropriate?:laugh:

No but it was accurate.

Bball
01-29-2006, 03:24 AM
The Pacers play better basketball without JO. I've been saying it for awhile now.

I don't know how many times we have to see it before people start believing it... The only question I have is if it is the player or the system.

That the stats would show it doesn't surprise me.

I became a believer last season when I was told that when JO returned from suspension we'd be OK.... We weren't. In fact, our best stretch of the season came when we got a power forward (who played with power) and JO sitting on the bench injured. That should've been an eye-opener if the earlier part of the season wasn't already. The 55 point game means nothing. Blah.

-Bball

rexnom
01-29-2006, 07:12 AM
The Pacers play better basketball without JO. I've been saying it for awhile now.

I don't know how many times we have to see it before people start believing it... The only question I have is if it is the player or the system.

That the stats would show it doesn't surprise me.

I became a believer last season when I was told that when JO returned from suspension we'd be OK.... We weren't. In fact, our best stretch of the season came when we got a power forward (who played with power) and JO sitting on the bench injured. That should've been an eye-opener if the earlier part of the season wasn't already. The 55 point game means nothing. Blah.

-Bball

I dunno. I like Jermaine so much off the court that maybe I have ignored how he really isn't integral to our on-court success. However, I think he might work really well with Peja. They won't be able to double team him anymore, quite simply. Especially if we learn to pass it around and make Peja the open man through clever screens if they ever double team. And if they don't, I don't think there are many big guys in this league that can stop J.O.

able
01-29-2006, 07:16 AM
Number manipulation, nothing else, and no hte Pacers are not a better team without JO.
They do however play a different system with JO on the floor, one not particularly liked by the players, but according to some "the right system".

But hey, we all seem to love all our players so much, that if it was up to a number of poster on this board our starting 5 would be Saras,Fred, Danny, Cro and Harrisson with Foster and AJ coming of the bench.

I really wonder what would happen if you had a team of that exact quality for a month or so

The Laundry, as jay said, and some others, that's what counts, and I agree, but please with our best players on the court, and if the system and the players are not matching that well then we should change the system, that is cheaper and easier then the players.

Roaming Gnome
01-29-2006, 07:31 AM
Bogus stats...IMHO, it's about who you are playing at the time of the injuries. Heck, if we are playing a lot of eastern confrence schleps at the time of O'neal being out, well it is easy to see how our record could be a little better then if we played power house teams while J.O's in the line-up.

Granted, I like the brand of basketball the team plays in J.O.s absence, but I'm not ready to go out on that limb with Bball saying the team is better off without O'neal in the lineup.

hoopsforlife
01-29-2006, 07:44 AM
After thinking this over for the last couple of days, I personally have decided this is one of the mysteries of life.

Whenever he is out the team plays together better . It probably has alot to do with that huge contract he signed because I can't see any other reason for him playing the lead role on this team. He is a good player when healthy but he should be a complimentary player but not the number one option.

able
01-29-2006, 07:49 AM
well let's only take this year for JO and see what the real statisticians have to say in On/Off court stats (82games.com) Shows somewhat of a different picture.


<center>
<font size=+2>Jermaine O'Neal</font><br>
<A href="0506IND.HTM"><font size=+0>Indiana Pacers</font></a><br>
2005-2006 NBA Season

<p>
</center>
<center>
<b>On Court / Off Court stats</b><br>
<i>Many stats are shown on a 'per 48 minute' basis</i><br>
<table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="1" cellspacing="1" width="500">
<tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33">
<td><center><b><font size="-1">Stat</font></b></center></td>
<td><center><b><font size="-1">ON Court</font></b></center></td>
<td><center><b><font size="-1">OFF Court</font></b></center></td>
<td><center><b><font size="-1">Net</font></b></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Minutes</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 1247 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 765 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 61%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5">
<td><center><font size="-1">Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 105.4</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 102.6</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +2.8</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5">
<td><center><font size="-1">Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 103.4</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 102.6</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0.8</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#99ff99">
<td><center><font size="-1">Net Points per 100 Possessions</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +2.0</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0.0</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> +2.0</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Points Scored</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">2450</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">1458</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +992</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Points Allowed</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1">2389</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">1461</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +928</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffff99">
<td><center><font size="-1">Net Points</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +61</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -3</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> +64</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Effective FG%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 49.3%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 48.6%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0.7%</font></center></td>
</tr>

<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Effective FG% Allowed</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 46.4%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 46.0%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0.3%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Assisted Field Goals</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 56%</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 54%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +2%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Assisted FG% Allowed</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 53%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 53%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0%</font></center></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Own Shots Blocked</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 6%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 6%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Shots Blocked</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 6%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 5%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +1%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td colspan="4"><font color="#ffffff" size="-1">Rebounding</font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Offensive Rebounding</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 26.9%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 27.2%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -0.3%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Defensive Rebounding</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 69.9%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 71.9%</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> -2.0%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Total Rebounding</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">48.4%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">49.6%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -1.1%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td colspan="4"><font color="#ffffff" size="-1">Stats</font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Free Throws Made</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 20 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 19 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +1</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Free Throws Attempted</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 28 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 26 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +2</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Free Throws Made by Opp.</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 18 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 21 </font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> +3</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Free Throws Attempted by Opp.</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 26 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 28 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +2</font></center></td>
</tr>

<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Turnovers, on Offense</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 15 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 16 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +1</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Turnovers, on Defense</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 14 </font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 14 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Net Turnovers</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">-1 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">-2 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -1</font></center></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Fouls Committed</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 22 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 23 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +1</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Fouls, Drawn</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 23 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 21 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +2</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Net Fouls</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 1 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">-2 </font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> -3</font></center></td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
</font><p>


</p></center>

able
01-29-2006, 07:58 AM
Tinsley in 04-05:

<center>
<table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="500">
<tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33">
<td><center><b><font size="-1">Stat</font></b></center></td>
<td><center><b><font size="-1">ON Court</font></b></center></td>
<td><center><b><font size="-1">OFF Court</font></b></center></td>
<td><center><b><font size="-1">Net</font></b></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Minutes</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 1298 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 2676 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 32%</font></center></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5">
<td><center><font size="-1">Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 108.8</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 104.9</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +3.9</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5">
<td><center><font size="-1">Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 105.6</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 105.5</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0.1</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#99ff99">
<td><center><font size="-1">Net Points per 100 Possessions</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +3.2</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -0.6</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> +3.9</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Points Scored</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">2656</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">4975</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">-2319</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Points Allowed</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1">2555</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">5016</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">-2461</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffff99">
<td><center><font size="-1">Net Points</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">+101</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -41</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">+142</font></center></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Effective FG%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 50.1%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 46.4%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +3.7%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Effective FG% Allowed</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 47.3%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 47.1%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0.1%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Assisted Field Goals</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 56%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 55%</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> +1%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Assisted FG% Allowed</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 58%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 54%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +4%</font></center></td>
</tr>

<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Own Shots Blocked</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 6%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 6%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Shots Blocked</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 6%</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 5%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +1%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td colspan="4"><font color="#ffffff" size="-1">Rebounding</font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Offensive Rebounding</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 29.2%</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 28.0%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +1.2%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Defensive Rebounding</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 70.6%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 69.4%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +1.2%</font></center></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Total Rebounding</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">49.9%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">48.7%</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +1.2%</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td colspan="4"><font color="#ffffff" size="-1">Stats</font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">

<td><center><font size="-1">Free Throws Made</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 20 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 21 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -1</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Free Throws Attempted</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 26 </font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 26 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Free Throws Made by Opp.</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 21 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 18 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -3</font></center></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Free Throws Attempted by Opp.</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 28 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 25 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -3</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Turnovers, on Offense</font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 15 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 13 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -2</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Turnovers, on Defense</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 14 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 13 </font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> +1</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Net Turnovers</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">-1 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 0 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +1</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">

<td><center><font size="-1">Fouls Committed</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 23 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 22 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> -1</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Fouls, Drawn</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 22 </font></center></td>

<td><center><font size="-1"> 22 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +0</font></center></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffff">
<td><center><font size="-1">Net Fouls</font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1">-1 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> 0 </font></center></td>
<td><center><font size="-1"> +1</font></center></td>

</tr>
</tbody></table>
</font><p>


</p></center>

Jon Theodore
01-29-2006, 12:39 PM
I thought anyone with half a brain was well aware that Jermaine is soooo overrated. We will go nowhere with him being our number one option. I got high hopes that the Pacers will have a real good team when JO's contract is up.

Arcadian
01-29-2006, 01:11 PM
Having a player who can rebound well, be a threat to alter shots, hit mid-range jumpers, score in the post, and draw double teams should not be a detriment to winning. If it is it is the fault of the coaches.

Pacersfan46
01-29-2006, 03:32 PM
The Pacers play better basketball without JO. I've been saying it for awhile now.

I don't know how many times we have to see it before people start believing it... The only question I have is if it is the player or the system.

That the stats would show it doesn't surprise me.

I became a believer last season when I was told that when JO returned from suspension we'd be OK.... We weren't. In fact, our best stretch of the season came when we got a power forward (who played with power) and JO sitting on the bench injured. That should've been an eye-opener if the earlier part of the season wasn't already. The 55 point game means nothing. Blah.

-Bball

I think I've been trying to make this point the same amount of time you have. I saw it about the same time, and I thought it was absolutely obvious. I think some people just don't WANT to see it.

Pacesetter
01-29-2006, 03:53 PM
I think to answer bball's question it's the system the Pacers are playing in that limits how effective JO is, BUT .... JO could still change the system if he could realize the role he's playing in now with the isolation ball isn't where he'll shine. However. Long story short, if JO went to Carlisle and urged Carlisle to change the way this team plays its offense and get out in the open court more, spread the floor more, and give everyone an equal stake in the outcome of games, I believe JO will still find a way to put up 20-10 numbers, and the team will have many others scoring and playing well. Most importantly, the team will have more in the Win column, but there's no doubt, the way this team plays when JO is injured versus the way it plays when he's present is obvious - they do play better. Again, I don't believe JO is the cause, I believe it's that the coaches are not utilizing the players we've got. Pure and Simple! JO is the best post up player we've had in the last 25 years, he's NOT the problem, especially considering the guy isn't shooting it 25 times in a game. Everyone should be able to see this just as easy as you noticed the discrepancy to start with.

BlueNGold
01-29-2006, 04:02 PM
Those stats do not tell the whole story...and are in fact misinformation. They are affected by a multitude of other factors like how often was Tinsley out while Jermaine was too. Also, teams may take it easier on the Pacers when the big guy is out...or on the other hand, the team may step it up when he is gone. There is also the problem with players coming in and out and the breaks in continuity when JO gets out of the line-up. After all, the offense is geared for him being in there...and that has to hurt the play. There are minutes many games where the score is not at all indicative of the game itself. I think we all see that. In short, it is a whole lot more complicated than the stats posted above would lead you to believe.

BUT, I do like the way the Pacers play without him. They seem to play with more effort and are definitely more entertaining.

BlueNGold
01-29-2006, 04:12 PM
I thought anyone with half a brain was well aware that Jermaine is soooo overrated. We will go nowhere with him being our number one option. I got high hopes that the Pacers will have a real good team when JO's contract is up.

JO's stock is going down a bit with the injuries. I don't think he has looked good this year and generally I would have to agree that he is overrated. But he still has a great post up game and excellent range from 12 ft...and is a great shotblocker. ...but he is probably not one of the top 3 PF's in the league based on this year's perfrmance and his knack for being on the IL.

...and I would agree that he is not a number one option on most championship teams...so I would not cry if the Pacer's dealt him.

SoThenRobbieSaid
01-29-2006, 04:43 PM
The Pacers play better without J.O., because they know they aren't guarenteed 20+ points, 8+ boards, a couple of blocks, and solid interior defense. When you take out those things, it forces everyone else to step up.

And for the statistics...I just remeber a few years back, when Tinsley was starting (during the 61 W season), we went 34-7. Although I like him, it's easy to tell how most of you feel about him. A good example of misleading stats. Was he the lone reason for those 61 wins? Sure...a valuable asset, but not the sole reason.