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sweabs
04-04-2004, 04:03 PM
a

Suaveness
04-04-2004, 04:03 PM
The whole team played bad.

sweabs
04-04-2004, 04:04 PM
a

PistonsDynasty
04-04-2004, 04:08 PM
Just REALLY played a poor game.
The guy didn't know how to bring the ball up from a full court press, and when he did get there, we started running the play with about 10 seconds on the shot clock left.

Same thing happen last year with Rick Carlisle but in the playoffs.

Billups was hurt and Larry had Chucky bring the ball up and dribble for 10 secs then pass to someone who has 3secs left on the shot clock.

Will Galen
04-04-2004, 04:14 PM
We need to activate Ziggy and give him some time before the playoffs. Leave AJ off the playoff roster.

Shade
04-04-2004, 04:19 PM
A team that plays the passing lanes well is AJ's worst nightmare. He should definitely be on our roster, as he'll be valuable against other teams. But against teams like Detroit, he needs to be 3rd string. We won't win with him playing major minutes, as he had to do today.

beast23
04-04-2004, 04:39 PM
A team that plays the passing lanes well is AJ's worst nightmare. He should definitely be on our roster, as he'll be valuable against other teams. But against teams like Detroit, he needs to be 3rd string. We won't win with him playing major minutes, as he had to do today.No offense, but AJ only played 16 minutes.

Our problem today was not merely AJ, it was Kenny as well. The few times that Artest brought the ball up the floor against the press, he actually showed far more poise than either one of our PG-wannabes.

Carlisle was forced to go with Kenny for a couple of reasons. Although AJ is probably a better position defender, he does not have Kenny's speed to keep up with his man while also trying to get through the screens. And secondly, he was looking for a guard who might be able to penetrate and take a more active role in scoring.

I've supported AJ as those on the forum have repeatedly bashed him, although I really have no preference for which one of Kenny or AJ plays. I believe that are simply different types of players and both can be effective when used in the right situations.

But make no mistake. Today our point guard play sucked. And that goes for Kenny as well as AJ.

Shade
04-04-2004, 04:43 PM
A team that plays the passing lanes well is AJ's worst nightmare. He should definitely be on our roster, as he'll be valuable against other teams. But against teams like Detroit, he needs to be 3rd string. We won't win with him playing major minutes, as he had to do today.No offense, but AJ only played 16 minutes.

Our problem today was not merely AJ, it was Kenny as well. The few times that Artest brought the ball up the floor against the press, he actually showed far more poise than either one of our PG-wannabes.

Carlisle was forced to go with Kenny for a couple of reasons. Although AJ is probably a better position defender, he does not have Kenny's speed to keep up with his man while also trying to get through the screens. And secondly, he was looking for a guard who might be able to penetrate and take a more active role in scoring.

I've supported AJ as those on the forum have repeatedly bashed him, although I really have no preference for which one of Kenny or AJ plays. I believe that are simply different types of players and both can be effective when used in the right situations.

But make no mistake. Today our point guard play sucked. And that goes for Kenny as well as AJ.

16 minutes is way too many for AJ.

Yes, Kenny sucked as well. But he would have been much better suited to trying to preserve a lead than build one. And with Tins, I think we would have definitely built a lead early.

beast23
04-04-2004, 04:57 PM
16 minutes is way too many for AJ.

Yes, Kenny sucked as well. But he would have been much better suited to trying to preserve a lead than build one. And with Tins, I think we would have definitely built a lead early.
Shade, using your same rationale, I would say that today 32 minutes were far too many for Kenny.

As far as I'm concerned, each of these guys used way too much clock bringing the ball up and initiating the offense. I would venture to guess that we did not often have more than 12-14 seconds to work with once we turned our thoughts from just keeping control of the ball to actually trying to score.

But anyway we debate it, 12 assists in a 48 minute game absolutely sucks.

I do believe that Tinsley could have made a huge difference in this game, particularly in our composure in bringing the ball up and in setting up in the half court. And usually a more composed approach to the game will result in a better shooting percentage. The ball is delivered in better position and the shooter doesn't feel is rushed.

But despite what Tinsley may have done for us, he would not have compensated for our unwillingness to match the Pistons physically.

Shade
04-04-2004, 05:00 PM
16 minutes is way too many for AJ.

Yes, Kenny sucked as well. But he would have been much better suited to trying to preserve a lead than build one. And with Tins, I think we would have definitely built a lead early.
Shade, using your same rationale, I would say that today 32 minutes were far too many for Kenny.

As far as I'm concerned, each of these guys used way too much clock bringing the ball up and initiating the offense. I would venture to guess that we did not often have more than 12-14 seconds to work with once we turned our thoughts from just keeping control of the ball to actually trying to score.

But anyway we debate it, 12 assists in a 48 minute game absolutely sucks.

I do believe that Tinsley could have made a huge difference in this game, particularly in our composure in bringing the ball up and in setting up in the half court. And usually a more composed approach to the game will result in a better shooting percentage. The ball is delivered in better position and the shooter doesn't feel is rushed.

But despite what Tinsley may have done for us, he would not have compensated for our unwillingness to match the Pistons physically.

I agree. 32 minutes is way too much for Kenny.

Tins should be out there for about 36, with Kenny the other 12.

beast23
04-04-2004, 05:02 PM
Tins should be out there for about 36, with Kenny the other 12.Smart ***. You may have gotten me on that one. :laugh:

Shade
04-04-2004, 05:09 PM
Tins should be out there for about 36, with Kenny the other 12.Smart ***. You may have gotten me on that one. :laugh:

:devil:

Ragnar
04-04-2004, 09:49 PM
I didn't see this game (thankfully, but boy was I PISSED at ABC!), but usually if multiple pg's are having trouble getting it over, the OTHER guys aren't doing a good job of getting open.

I believe it is the point guards job to direct the players into position and to find the open man. AJ is incapable of this and thats why I hate to see him play. Kenny is far and away better and Tins looks like some sort of basketball God compared to either of them.

I remember the first time my brother saw Tins play after watching most of the early games without him. He said is Tinsley the best poing guard in the NBA or do these other guys just totaly suck. :laugh:

TheSauceMaster
04-04-2004, 10:13 PM
Tinsely isn't as good as most people on this forum build him up too be , he not even a top 10 guard in the NBA he is somehwere between 15 and 20 :rolleyes:

Ragnar
04-04-2004, 10:26 PM
Tinsely isn't as good as most people on this forum build him up too be , he not even a top 10 guard in the NBA he is somehwere between 15 and 20 :rolleyes:

If you are saying guard as in either 1 or 2 then yes is you mean point guard then I dont buy that for a second.

1)Kidd

2)Baron when healthy and not feuding with his coach.

3)Nash maybe

4)Starbury when he first got to the Knicks but not now.

5)Tinsley

The other so called star point guards are shoot first not pass first and I am sorry but that is a shooting guard and I am not interested in a shooting guard playing the point.

I wouls take Tins over Billups, Starbury or Francis any day.

TheSauceMaster
04-04-2004, 10:45 PM
Well let's not forget Kenny Anderson got us off to a great start this season and I think alot of people are being alittle to critical of his play , I will admit Tinsely is 10 times better this year and he desrerves some credit , but look at Kenny's Stats over the Past 5 games and I think those speak for themselevs ;)

I really hope that when Tinsley comes back that Kenny is his backup cause AJ is just getting more painful to watch while he is in the game.

diego
04-05-2004, 12:16 AM
our best PG today was ron artest. He was the only one that didnt frak out when pressured.

TheSauceMaster
04-05-2004, 12:24 AM
our best PG today was ron artest. He was the only one that didnt frak out when pressured.

Yeah but did you notice when Ron was runnig it he was yellling at his teamates for movement ?

beast23
04-05-2004, 12:41 AM
Tinsely isn't as good as most people on this forum build him up too be , he not even a top 10 guard in the NBA he is somehwere between 15 and 20 :rolleyes:

If you are saying guard as in either 1 or 2 then yes is you mean point guard then I dont buy that for a second.

1)Kidd

2)Baron when healthy and not feuding with his coach.

3)Nash maybe

4)Starbury when he first got to the Knicks but not now.

5)Tinsley

The other so called star point guards are shoot first not pass first and I am sorry but that is a shooting guard and I am not interested in a shooting guard playing the point.

I wouls take Tins over Billups, Starbury or Francis any day.
In no particular order, the following are better or just as good as Tinsley:

Kidd, Marbury, Snow, Arenas, Nash, Andre Miller, Francis, Cassell, Parker, Terry, LeBron James, Billups, Baron Davis, Payton, Bibby.

That's 15 off the top of my head.

Anthem
04-05-2004, 12:51 AM
Tinsely isn't as good as most people on this forum build him up too be , he not even a top 10 guard in the NBA he is somehwere between 15 and 20 :rolleyes:

Fine. So where does that put Kenny and AJ?

TheSauceMaster
04-05-2004, 12:54 AM
Fine. So where does that put Kenny and AJ?

Well IMO Kenny is better than AJ :D

But I was refering to Starters , I really don't think AJ is Starter Material and Kenny can be questionable .

Anthem
04-05-2004, 02:22 AM
Fine. So where does that put Kenny and AJ?

Well IMO Kenny is better than AJ :D

Well, I think we'd all like to see Tinsley start and Kenny get all of his backup minutes.

Next year, when Kenny's gone, I'd like to see Freddy get all of Tinsley's backup minutes.

By the way, your gizmo keeps thinking I'm using Netscape, when in fact I'm using FireFox.

Ragnar
04-05-2004, 10:36 AM
In no particular order, the following are better or just as good as Tinsley:

Kidd (I agree)

Marbury(Cancer who has never won anything)

Snow(no way in h3ll)

Arenas(Right thats why his team hates him for not passing the ball. Just in case you forgot that is the primary job of a pg not to lead the team in scoring)

Nash(OK)

Andre Miller(nope not better but close to as good)

Francis(uh huh thats why they will probably dump him in the offseason)

Cassell(OK I can go with Sam I am)

Parker(not better but close to as good as JT)

Terry(Right thats why they have won so many games I would take him as a 2 but not a 1)

LeBron James(He is a small foreward so I am not sure why he is on the list)

Billups(50/50 Tins ia a far better play maker but Billups is not bad and can shoot better)

Baron Davis(When he is not feuding with his coach)

Payton(last year yes this year no)

Bibby(Ok Maybe so).

I only see 5 who are better and some that are close.

Edit--- It is all about your philosophy of how the game should be played. I think a pg should get more assists than points. He should pass twice as much as he shoots and he should be the thing that makes the team look fluid. Tinsley is all of those things and that is why I am such a big fan.

Hicks
04-05-2004, 04:46 PM
Ragnar, I'd say Parker > Tinsley. Tinsley's a better passer, but Parker's no slouch, and Parker is a better shooter/scorer, and he's VERY fast/quick.

If I could trade Tinsley for Parker this second, I'd more than likely do so.

Unclebuck
04-05-2004, 04:55 PM
Ragnar, no way Tinsley is the 5th best point guard. NO WAY.

I would not put him in the top 10, not even close, he is somewhere around #15.

Of course it makes a difference in how you evaluate things.

Best point guard

Best player at the point guard position

Best player for the Pacers current team?

Kstat
04-05-2004, 04:55 PM
Ragnar, are you Tinsley's mother or something?

Comparing Tinsley, who is 0-3 in the 1st round, to Parker, a guy witha freaking championship ring, is laughable.

After yesterday, watching Parker just EMBARRASS Gary Payton in his own building, I'll say Parker is one of the top THREE PGs in the NBA.

ChicagoJ
04-05-2004, 04:58 PM
Ragnar, are you Tinsley's mother or something?

Comparing Tinsley, who is 0-3 in the 1st round, to Parker, a guy witha freaking championship ring, is laughable.

In Tinsley's defense, he's 0-2.

:D

able
04-05-2004, 05:06 PM
Parker is FAST, i'll give you that.

He has a fabulous shot, I'll give you that.

His passing ? uhhh no.

Not saying Tins is better, nope, he has to much to prove for that.
but he will be, as a "pure" pg, he will be better.
as a combo, nevvah
as a shooter, nevvah
as a passer, surely
as a PG sure thing

As a pure PG, pass first, Tins IS one of the best, as a shooter, no way near.

As for the ideal Pacers PG, he is damn close.

Kstat
04-05-2004, 05:19 PM
Also, if we're going by PURE PGs, Eric snow is the best PURE PG in the east after Jason Kidd. Snow runs his team as well as any guard in the NBA, he cerainly has the most poise. He's also the best defensive PG in the east.

Ragnar
04-05-2004, 05:24 PM
As I said it is about philosophy of play. I didnt hink UB would think Tins was top 5 because he does not list pasing ability anywhere in his point guard atributes. If so he would not think Best, Strickland or AJ were even decent point guards.

It however is the very top of my list, and I challenge you to point out 10 other point guard who are even as good at passing as Tinsley let alone better. Jason Kidd is hands down the best point guard in the NBA. Pretty much everyone agrees with that. As much as I like Tinsley if the Nets offered Kidd and we had to send them Tins I would be the first one saying do it. So no I am not his mother or agent.

Court vision is so important IMO that it supersedes anything else the pg can do. I dont care if the pg cant his the broad side of the barn because that is not his job. A big part of the reason that all of the starters get good shots is because of Tinsley. If you dont think so then you didnt watch any of the games he has been out.

Can you imagine Jermaine and Ron being happy with a pg like Francis who thinks passing is something other people do to him. I guarantee that there would be some very unhappy stars in the locker room.

The next most important skill is ball handeling. JT is a very good ball handler, AJ sucks at it. Breaking a press and geting the ball in play without it being 2 seconds on the clock is a pg's job. You dont see Tins spending 18 seconds dribbling off the clock only to have to take the shot himself because he cant get the ball to whomever the play was called for.

There are not 5 better guys in the NBA at creating shots for team mates or that have a better court vision. Now I dont know about you guys but in my book that is what a pg is suposed to do. Jason Terry, Steve Francis and guys like him are not point guards.

Suaveness
04-05-2004, 05:31 PM
As far as traditional PG skills are concerned, I have to agree with Ragner. Those first few games that he played in the NBA were enough to convince me of that. He is damn good. Amazing vision, and he just knows where to put the ball.

Kstat
04-05-2004, 05:31 PM
For your basketball education, Ragnar:

One facit you do not mention that in IMPERATIVE to great PG play is DRAWING DEFENSE AND FINDING THE OPEN MAN. So many times, the only shot Tinsley takes in the halfcourt offense is a 30-foot three-pointer, as opposed to an eric snow, tony parker, or Gary Payton, who gets INTO the paint, draws people in, and finds an open man on the perimeter.

Did you see how Tony Parker slashed through the LA team and kept finsing Duncan and Bowen wide open on the perimeter? Jamal on his best day couldn't duplicate that kind of performance.

You keep bringing up guys that score points, apparently as proof that this is proof that they cannot pass the ball. Steve Nash, Tony Parker, Snow, Payton, Cassell, Kidd, heck even Carlos Arroyo, these guys are GREAT at running a halfcourt offense. Tinsley's only great asset is his ability to pass in the OPEN FLOOR. I do not see him dominating any games in the halfcourt.

Kstat
04-05-2004, 05:33 PM
As far as traditional PG skills are concerned, I have to agree with Ragner. Those first few games that he played in the NBA were enough to convince me of that. He is damn good. Amazing vision, and he just knows where to put the ball.

Thats the key phrase right there, Suave. Its been THREE YEARS later, and TIn hasn't shown it since. He doesn't get into the lane enough, and his jumper is inconsistent, and that is an IMPROVEMENT over last year. Teams are content to let him sit at the 3point line and hoist open jumpers, and that limits what he can do offensively.

MagicRat
04-05-2004, 05:38 PM
One facit you do not mention that in IMPERATIVE to great PG play is DRAWING DEFENSE AND FINSING THE OPEN MAN.

Did you see how Tony Parker slashed through the LA team and kept finsing Duncan and Bowen .......


It's spelled fencing.

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V117/N64/fencing.64.gif

ChicagoJ
04-05-2004, 05:40 PM
One facit you do not mention that in IMPERATIVE to great PG play is DRAWING DEFENSE AND FINSING THE OPEN MAN.

It's spelled fencing.

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V117/N64/fencing.64.gif


Oh boy....

:uhoh:

Ragnar
04-05-2004, 05:44 PM
Tinsley does drive the lane but I agree he needs to do it more. I might have to give you Aroyo I was very impressed with him.

However he does find the open man very very well. You seem to think that teams dont even try to guard him. I wish that were so but it simply is not true.

Edit ----calling Eric Snow the best pure pg in the east is just mind boggling to me.

And as far as giving me a basketball education, just watch at some point Rick is going to have to play Tinsley/Anderson and you will see that the Pacers will run far far better than Anyone/AJ. I think it will happen in the Detroit series if not the second round and it will be the reason we get over the Pistons in the ECF.

Everyone said I was wrong about Tins at the begining of the year that is untill he played and was so much better than the other two guys that to not start him would have been the crime of the century. People said I was wrong about AJ not being a good defender or poing guard, but that is being born out over the season.

Suaveness
04-05-2004, 05:49 PM
As far as traditional PG skills are concerned, I have to agree with Ragner. Those first few games that he played in the NBA were enough to convince me of that. He is damn good. Amazing vision, and he just knows where to put the ball.

Thats the key phrase right there, Suave. Its been THREE YEARS later, and TIn hasn't shown it since. He doesn't get into the lane enough, and his jumper is inconsistent, and that is an IMPROVEMENT over last year. Teams are content to let him sit at the 3point line and hoist open jumpers, and that limits what he can do offensively.

I DO think that he is a better, more polished player than he was before. He plays under control, and has an uncanny ability to get it to the open man. To me, that is more important than shooting well. And though he wasn't known for that even before the NBA, he is improving rapidly this year.

Kstat
04-05-2004, 05:50 PM
Tinsley does drive the lane but I agree he needs to do it more. I might have to give you Aroyo I was very impressed with him.

However he does find the open man very very well. You seem to think that teams dont even try to guard him. I wish that were so but it simply is not true.

Well, last year I know that Tins was widely critisized here for taking bad outside shots. This year he has improved on his outside shot, but I still see a lot of teams sitting back on him, and sagging on other players. Jamal's shot selection is still something I see as a major concern.

Ragnar
04-05-2004, 05:54 PM
Well, last year I know that Tins was widely critisized here for taking bad outside shots. This year he has improved on his outside shot, but I still see a lot of teams sitting back on him, and sagging on other players. Jamal's shot selection is still something I see as a major concern.

Dont get me wrong I am not calling Tinsley a shooter. What I am saying is I dont give a d@mn if he can or cant shoot because that is not the point guards job. The only shooting he needs to be able to do it to hit the open 3. He was at 30% last year this year he has greatly imporved his shooting %.

He is not all the way there yet but this is his 3rd year in the NBA. The large strides he has made over even just last year tells me that he will be hitting them with consistency within the next year or two. And whomever said Tins has not improved over last year. What games are you watching???

Kstat
04-05-2004, 05:58 PM
Well, last year I know that Tins was widely critisized here for taking bad outside shots. This year he has improved on his outside shot, but I still see a lot of teams sitting back on him, and sagging on other players. Jamal's shot selection is still something I see as a major concern.

Dont get me wrong I am not calling Tinsley a shooter. What I am saying is I dont give a d@mn if he can or cant shoot because that is not the point guards job. The only shooting he needs to be able to do it to hit the open 3. He was at 30% last year this year he has greatly imporved his shooting %.

He is not all the way there yet but this is his 3rd year in the NBA. The large strides he has made over even just last year tells me that he will be hitting them with consistency within the next year or two. And whomever said Tins has not improved over last year. What games are you watching???

Ragnar, you are speaking like I'm talkign about tinsley's ABILITY to shoot. Re-read what I said: I said shot SELECTION, which means knowing WHEN to shoot and when NOT to shoot. Taking GOOD shots is just as important as anythign a PG does. Tinsley take a lot of low-percentage shots at bad times. He's always been that way.

And Tins is not putting up the great stats he had early in his rookie year. Is he a better player? Sure. Not by a lot, but he is better.

BTW, you SHOULD give a damn if TInsley can shoot or not, because that affects how much the defense can disrespect him and play him for the pass. That affects how effectively he can run his team.

naptownmenace
04-06-2004, 10:25 AM
Okay, I'll bite:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Steve Nash
3. Stephon Marbury
4. Gary Payton
5. Tony Parker

Those guys can score and are great at running their teams' offense. I'd exchange Tinsley for any of them. Others that I'd consider better but not as much are:

6. Mike Bibby
7. Jason Williams
8. Carlos Arroyo
9. Chauncey Billups
10. Baron Davis

That would put Tinsley at #11 at the highest and I might be forgetting someone. However, Tinsley works pretty well within the Pacers offense and is certainly the best option that we have. When his shot is on, and he scores in double figures, he is darn near perfect.

He's better than years prior and I really like his hustle and the seriousness he's brought to his defense this year but those 10 guys above are all better PGs.

Ragnar
04-06-2004, 10:51 AM
Okay, I'll bite:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Steve Nash
3. Stephon Marbury
4. Gary Payton
5. Tony Parker

Those guys can score and are great at running their teams' offense. I'd exchange Tinsley for any of them. Others that I'd consider better but not as much are:

6. Mike Bibby
7. Jason Williams
8. Carlos Arroyo
9. Chauncey Billups
10. Baron Davis

That would put Tinsley at #11 at the highest and I might be forgetting someone. However, Tinsley works pretty well within the Pacers offense and is certainly the best option that we have. When his shot is on, and he scores in double figures, he is darn near perfect.

He's better than years prior and I really like his hustle and the seriousness he's brought to his defense this year but those 10 guys above are all better PGs.

How is it that pretty much everyone on the planet other than you thinks Tinsley is a better passer than Parker?

No way I would want Starbury he has proven himself to be a loser when it counts.

I think Tinsley is on par with Payton now that Tins is playing defense. Considering we were 4-1 or 3-1 against Payton last year in head to head matchups and 1-1 this year I would not in a million years trade for Payton. He is unhappy about the amount of shots he is getting. That would not go over well here.

Jayson Williams?? That was just a joke right?

Baron Davis is pretty darn good but the way he is rebeling against his coach puts him down a notch in my book. But I would still put him as one of the better guards at this point.

Chauncy is no where near as good of a passer as Tinsley. He is a notch below him in that area. However he is clutch when a last minute shot is needed he will run down the lane and hit it. So I will give you Chauncy for now. Again we are talking about a 3rd year guy against a what 8 or 9 year guy?

Tins may be 6th or seventh and I may be giving him too much credit to say 5th. But if so I am not far off. I think it is funny how the Tinsley doubters came out only after two loses that he did not play in and we had totaly crappy pg play in them. Tinsley is light years ahead of the other two but because they failed he is suddenly not very good?

If Rick plays Tinsley/Kenny combo tonight we will win. If he plays the Tinsley/AJ combo I think it will be at best a 50% chance of wining because Tins is still not 100% and he wont be able to make up the huge deficits that AJ would create.

naptownmenace
04-06-2004, 11:07 AM
Tins may be 6th or seventh and I may be giving him too much credit to say 5th. But if so I am not far off. I think it is funny how the Tinsley doubters came out only after two loses that he did not play in and we had totaly crappy pg play in them. Tinsley is light years ahead of the other two but because they failed he is suddenly not very good?

If Rick plays Tinsley/Kenny combo tonight we will win. If he plays the Tinsley/AJ combo I think it will be at best a 50% chance of wining because Tins is still not 100% and he wont be able to make up the huge deficits that AJ would create.

No, it was your comment that Tinsley was a top 5 point guard that brought out the Tinsley doubters. :devil:

Seriously though, you're overrating him quite a bit and if you haven't noticed how well Jason Williams has played, you haven't watched Memphis the last two seasons. He's a better scorer and passer than Tinsley.

I agree with you that Tinsley is the best PG on our team but you'd have to be blind not to realize there are better PGs out there.

Ragnar
04-06-2004, 11:51 AM
I did not say that there were not better poing guards out there. If so I would have said he was the best point guard in the NBA. I didnt say that.

I agree that Kidd, Nash, Cassell, Davis, and maybe Arroyo are better (I forget about Arroyo a lot because I dont see the Jazz play much) I dont hink Williams is better. He has certainly improved a lot in the last couple of years but I dont think he is better than Tins.

That being said Tinsley is the best pg for this team because of his court awareness. The only point guards I would trade him for would be Kidd, Cassell or Arroyo. Payton and Starbury are not good team players and Nash does not play any D.

beast23
04-07-2004, 12:27 AM
In no particular order, the following are better or just as good as Tinsley:

Kidd (I agree)

Marbury(Cancer who has never won anything)

Snow(no way in h3ll)

Arenas(Right thats why his team hates him for not passing the ball. Just in case you forgot that is the primary job of a pg not to lead the team in scoring)

Nash(OK)

Andre Miller(nope not better but close to as good)

Francis(uh huh thats why they will probably dump him in the offseason)

Cassell(OK I can go with Sam I am)

Parker(not better but close to as good as JT)

Terry(Right thats why they have won so many games I would take him as a 2 but not a 1)

LeBron James(He is a small foreward so I am not sure why he is on the list)

Billups(50/50 Tins ia a far better play maker but Billups is not bad and can shoot better)

Baron Davis(When he is not feuding with his coach)

Payton(last year yes this year no)

Bibby(Ok Maybe so).

I only see 5 who are better and some that are close.

Edit--- It is all about your philosophy of how the game should be played. I think a pg should get more assists than points. He should pass twice as much as he shoots and he should be the thing that makes the team look fluid. Tinsley is all of those things and that is why I am such a big fan.Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Spyware has me a little wrapped up.

I totally agree with your philosophy regarding PGs..... exactly the reason why Travis is no longer a Pacer, despite his defensive abilities.

But in evaluating a PG, at least in comparing them to Tinsley, you must try to gauge the PG's ability to score and especially to play defense against Tinsley's performance. Another factor that I believe should be considered is the PG's quickness and ability to beat his man off the dribble, getting into the lane where he might be able to score or to cause switching by the opponent's big men.

Those are areas where I give an edge to players like Marbury, Nash, Francis, Terry, Billups and Davis. A lot of these guys get their 6 or more assists a game, while also managing to grab 5 rebounds a game, while also scoring 14 or more points a game. They are quick and they make cause problems for an opponents defense. Many are also light years ahead of Tinsley defensively and cause problems at the other end of the floor for their opponent's point guard.

There are a lot of factores that go into making the perfect point guard. I'm perfectly happy with the way that Tinsley gets the ball up the floor and distributes. But there are other skills that you would want your point guard to have that we would both be very happy about if Tinsley somehow miraculously picked those skills up overnight.

These other players may not have Tinsley's distribution abilities; but they also have one or more skills that Tinsley just doesn't have. As far as the scorers go, I beleive that if they played on a team like the Pacers where they were not required to score as much, that their perceived distribution abillities and their number of assists would be greater.

Pertaining to LeBron, he is listed by Cleveland as a guard, and in virtually every depth chart as a PG. What would you call a player that plays guard and has the ball in his hands more than 50% of the time in the half court?

Ragnar
04-07-2004, 10:29 AM
I totally agree with your philosophy regarding PGs..... exactly the reason why Travis is no longer a Pacer, despite his defensive abilities.

Thank God he is gone. I dont know how much longer I would have been able to watch with him here.

But in evaluating a PG, at least in comparing them to Tinsley, you must try to gauge the PG's ability to score and especially to play defense against Tinsley's performance. Another factor that I believe should be considered is the PG's quickness and ability to beat his man off the dribble, getting into the lane where he might be able to score or to cause switching by the opponent's big men.

Those are areas where I give an edge to players like Marbury, Nash, Francis, Terry, Billups and Davis. A lot of these guys get their 6 or more assists a game, while also managing to grab 5 rebounds a game, while also scoring 14 or more points a game. They are quick and they make cause problems for an opponents defense. Many are also light years ahead of Tinsley defensively and cause problems at the other end of the floor for their opponent's point guard.

I do take that into account. It sure looked like Tins was far far better than Marbury last night. He stole the ball from Marbury 3 or 4 times and played very good D on him. (Marbury only hit two shots on Tinsley)

Francis is Killing the Rockets there is no way in h3ll he is a better point guard. Like I said in another thread he is a better shooting guard (so is Jason Terry) but he is in not way a better point guard. I bet if we offered Tinsley for Francis straight up VanGundy would jump for joy and weep for days at his good luck.

Nash and Davis I will give you, but I had already listed them.


There are a lot of factores that go into making the perfect point guard. I'm perfectly happy with the way that Tinsley gets the ball up the floor and distributes. But there are other skills that you would want your point guard to have that we would both be very happy about if Tinsley somehow miraculously picked those skills up overnight.

These other players may not have Tinsley's distribution abilities; but they also have one or more skills that Tinsley just doesn't have. As far as the scorers go, I beleive that if they played on a team like the Pacers where they were not required to score as much, that their perceived distribution abillities and their number of assists would be greater.

In Jason Kidds third year he was no where near the pg that Tinsley is right now. Thats not in any way to try and say that Tinsley will ever be the point guard that Jason Kidd is now. I dont think he will be the very best but he is pretty d@mn good. Dont write off Tinsley's desire to improve and add other factors to his game. He has added defense this year and his shot is coming arround too.

Pertaining to LeBron, he is listed by Cleveland as a guard, and in virtually every depth chart as a PG. What would you call a player that plays guard and has the ball in his hands more than 50% of the time in the half court?

Jordan was like that but they still called him a shooting guard. The other 50% it was in Pippens hands and it seems to me he was listed at the small foreward.

The other thing you are missing with that analogy is that they were winning the most games when he was not playing point spending his time at the sf instead. The only reason they went back to him handling the ball so much is that the starting point guard is out with injury.

At the begining of the year he played point and they were not very good. In the middle they got a real pg and they got real good. Then he got injured and they suck now even losing to the Raptors last night.

waxman
04-07-2004, 03:36 PM
Tinsley is a fine point guard and a good fit for the Pacers....he doesn't get anywhere near 40 minutes a night like most of the other guys mentioned here do....if he did... i'm sure he'd be one of the leaders, if not the leader in assissts... maybe steals.... and per 48 minutes, i would guess his numbers are comparable to most of these guys.

jamal is a natural point guard...and his game shows it...he can both push the ball and run half court offense with equal effectiveness... I really like the way he sets up, not just the offense, but his defender and the other defenders on the floor to open up passing lanes....it allows him to hit his teammates in rhythm...he also has enough ability to score that you can't cheat off of him, and his decision making is getting much better.

While Jamal isn't perfect....he is very good and his growth this season has been a joy to watch....definately a keeper.