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Bball
01-23-2006, 05:11 AM
I thought this needed its own thread... Bball

Bob Kravitz
Time to tinker is gone; trade O'Neal, rebuild


Today marks exactly one month before the NBA trading deadline, or 42 days since Ron Artest was put into permanent timeout. And the Indiana Pacers, now a bland, mediocre franchise doomed to middling status in the Eastern Conference, have left themselves with only two real choices:

Start the rebuilding process now, or wait until this summer?
Because unless somebody has a debilitating brain cramp and opts to send Kevin Garnett here for Ron Artest and a nail clipper, the Pacers are going absolutely nowhere. Fifty wins, at best. A second-round playoff ouster, at best.

What? You think Pacers president Larry Bird and team CEO Donnie Walsh, who so thoroughly botched the Artest situation from the start, are going to make a season-saving trade sometime in these next few weeks?

No.

Blow it up.

Start over.

Unpopular? Yes. Difficult? With this screwy salary structure, with Jonathan Bender and Austin Croshere ranking as the second- and third-highest-paid players on the team, absolutely. Necessary? That, too. It's just a matter of when.

"I can't really see that happening,'' Jermaine O'Neal said Saturday night after the Pacers' disturbing 101-89 loss to the Chicago Bulls at Conseco Fieldhouse. "The owners (Herb and Mel Simon), Donnie, Larry, they're too prideful to let that happen. But it's up to them. If we can't get the job done, I truly believe there are going to be some changes by this summer, and hopefully, my teammates and myself understand that.''

There will be changes, and it would be foolish to dismiss the notion that those changes wouldn't involve O'Neal.

On the one hand, some of us think he's grown as a player and as a leader, that he's become a regular double-double guy while operating without a second post-up presence in the lineup. He's not the reason this thing has stagnated, any more than Elton Brand was the reason the Bulls were so horrible for all those years. Management, which has let Artest destroy a second straight season while sitting in his front-row seat at Los Angeles' Staples Center, deserves ultimate culpability.

That said, if they're going to rebuild, they've got to start by moving O'Neal. He's the only player on this roster who can demand another All-Star-caliber talent. Anything short of that, they're basically tinkering, which defeats the entire purpose.

When the latest Artest mess reached critical mass, the thought here was, move the guy, give the new players a chance to get integrated, then decide by Feb. 23 whether to make subtle changes or take a blowtorch to the whole thing.

Well, nothing has happened yet. And even if it happens this week, it's not going to give coach Rick Carlisle and the rest of management enough time to know who they have, or what they have, or whether to make additional moves by the deadline.

Essentially, they've punted away a second straight season.

"We can't wait around for Superman to come in here and save the town, save the team,'' O'Neal said. "It's up to us to get it done.''

That's a noble sentiment, and it's one you'll hear throughout a very professional locker room. To their enduring credit, the Pacers' coaching staff and players have never, not once, used the team's terminal instability as an excuse.

Carlisle has been dealt a lousy hand for two straight seasons, and while his lineup-tinkering can be maddening at times, he still has this group playing about as well as possible.

These players have been virtually abandoned, left to fend for themselves, and they've refused to let the bizarre circumstances compromise their professionalism.

"Even given all of the situations we've been put in, we still should be playing better than we are,'' Austin Croshere said. "I felt the same way last year, so maybe that's just me.''

If I thought a little bit of tinkering might put them over the top, or at least get them into the area code of the top, I'd say they need to keep battling away with the current roster, be patient. If I thought an eventual trade would mentally kick-start them, make them some kind of dark horse contender, I'd call for maintaining the status quo.

Except it's not going to happen.

Is Jamaal Tinsley ever going to stay healthy? And if he does, will his maddening, painfully inconsistent street game ever evolve?

No, and no.

(Understand, Tinsley is a base-year compensation player, which means if they traded him now, they'd get only half his contractual value in return. So if they're going to move him, it will be this summer, when they can get full financial value.)

Is Stephen Jackson the long-term answer at either the two- or three-spot?

No.

There are some decent pieces in place, some younger players who have a chance to emerge with additional minutes. But in the end, the Pacers as currently constituted are monuments to mediocrity, products of an Eastern Conference where .500 is viewed as an elite standard.
They're going to have to start over. Now or later, they're going to have to start over.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060123/COLUMNISTS01/601230389

SwissExpress
01-23-2006, 05:55 AM
That writer surely reads fans' forums...

Interesting info on Tinsley's contractual situation. I didn't know that.

I think Jermaine should stay. It'd be hardly possible to get equal player for him.

317Kim
01-23-2006, 06:26 AM
He just doesnt get it. JO stays :)

I cant believe it's been 42 days. that's just crazy!

Bball
01-23-2006, 06:46 AM
50 wins? Hmmmm I wonder if that is even being realistic right now?

-Bball

317Kim
01-23-2006, 06:54 AM
It's possible if we can get that run during February with 8 home games 2 road games..right now..we're only 3 games above .500 :kickcan:

Bball
01-23-2006, 07:13 AM
It's possible if we can get that run during February with 8 home games 2 road games..right now..we're only 3 games above .500 :kickcan:

I fear that is at least 3 games better than we're going to be if things keep going like they are in the next few weeks. :cry:

-Bball

croz24
01-23-2006, 07:29 AM
the only player the pacers can trade to get them over the top is o'neal. do you seriously think the pacers can get all-star caliber players or young studs by trading sjax, tinsley, artest, etc.? trading o'neal is the only possible way this team will do anything in the next 5yrs come playoff time. unless, of course, ron returns to the team.

indygeezer
01-23-2006, 07:46 AM
On a brighter note, we're in the chase for Greg Oden if this continues into next year.

indygeezer
01-23-2006, 08:03 AM
OK,it's out in the open. Someone has finally put it in print.
The drunken uncle discovered. Frankensteins monster has been seen by the villagers. The dirty scret revealed, this team is broken and needs a major overhaul.

Is he merely trolling the Indianapolis populace. Probably.
Does he really believe what he has written. Yes, at least until a trade is made and we go on a 3 game winning streak, then he'll edit his thoughts. But he has put voice to what some of us on here have believed for a long time. There is too much youth and immaturity on this "team". Austin Croshere is the only true VET we have and his credentials don't lead the youngsters to follow him (much).
Is it possible to put this group back together? IMO, maybe. But I don't think that Byron Scott is available to play for us. We need at least 1 perhaps 2 vets that the youngsters can look up to and FOLLOW. And yes, I include JO as one of those youngsters that need someone to lead them. Even at that, I think the knuckleheaded youngsters exposed themselves when Reggie was here. They proved that even WITH vet leadership they couldn't be trusted all the time. Therefore, even with a much needed infusion of veteran leadership a couple of those yo-yos will have to go.

Or as I have said before...blowemup. It is altogether possible that this entire team will always carry the stigma of 11/19 on it and the only way to rid it of that label is to totally remake what we have. Otherwise, the P's may find themselves losing not only games but fans as well.

able
01-23-2006, 08:08 AM
You do realize this is hte same guy that not only reads a lot of posts on here, but also talked about murdering Manning right ?

As for the blowmeup fanatics, to much blowing up going around anyway, but again I ask do you realize that in JO we have a top 10 player and that there are 30 teams in this league, chances aren't that good you land another one soon, unless he's of his rockers..........

And the "talent" story I've heard so long now it starts to hurt.

NPFII
01-23-2006, 08:10 AM
the only player the pacers can trade to get them over the top is o'neal. do you seriously think the pacers can get all-star caliber players or young studs by trading sjax, tinsley, artest, etc.? trading o'neal is the only possible way this team will do anything in the next 5yrs come playoff time. unless, of course, ron returns to the team.

Yes.

All 3 together can bring you a disgrunted all-star calliber player.

Paul Pierce, Stevie Francis, Stephon Marbury, Rashard Lewis, and many more can be had with a package like that (Maggette & KMart - both considered all-star calliber - were offered for Ron alone).

The insight from this article is that it will be done in the summer when Tinsley's contract gains its full trade value.

I'd say that this "tinkering" process can go pretty deep to just about anybody except JO, Granger and Saras (and possibly Fred Jones and Foster). I don't believe JO will be moved. He's the cornerstone piece.

SwissExpress
01-23-2006, 08:11 AM
OK,it's out in the open. Someone has finally put it in print.
The drunken uncle discovered. Frankensteins monster has been seen by the villagers. The dirty scret revealed, this team is broken and needs a major overhaul.

Is he merely trolling the Indianapolis populace. Probably.
Does he really believe what he has written. Yes, at least until a trade is made and we go on a 3 game winning streak, then he'll edit his thoughts. But he has put voice to what some of us on here have believed for a long time. There is too much youth and immaturity on this "team". Austin Croshere is the only true VET we have and his credentials don't lead the youngsters to follow him (much).
Is it possible to put this group back together? IMO, maybe. But I don't think that Byron Scott is available to play for us. We need at least 1 perhaps 2 vets that the youngsters can look up to and FOLLOW. And yes, I include JO as one of those youngsters that need someone to lead them. Even at that, I think the knuckleheaded youngsters exposed themselves when Reggie was here. They proved that even WITH vet leadership they couldn't be trusted all the time. Therefore, even with a much needed infusion of veteran leadership a couple of those yo-yos will have to go.

Or as I have said before...blowemup. It is altogether possible that this entire team will always carry the stigma of 11/19 on it and the only way to rid it of that label is to totally remake what we have. Otherwise, the P's may find themselves losing not only games but fans as well.

This reminded me of the Spurs during the season after lockout. David Robinson and Tim Duncan. A beautifull view. That's what Jermaine might need: a david robinson. Talented, reliable, respected, not necessarily 35 mpg player.

able
01-23-2006, 08:15 AM
The insight from this article is that it will be done in the summer when Tinsley's contract gains its full trade value.




You should NEVER use the words "insight" and "Kravitz" in one sentence, it debunks any and all credibility to the post.

NPFII
01-23-2006, 08:20 AM
You should NEVER use the words "insight" and "Kravitz" in one sentence, it debunks any and all credibility to the post.

:laugh:

I meant "my" insight from Kravitz's article. I didnt know the issue of Tinsley's contract. I did see on the RealGM trade checker that there's a BYC1 next to his name, but I always figured it's a BuYout Clause thing... :blush:

I hope that re-bunks my post's credibility...

able
01-23-2006, 08:31 AM
uhh considering the BYC status has been mentioned here only about 500 times, and is easily found on larry coons page, besides that in all discussions here it is/was explained many a time.................

But don't get your hopes up, in order for Tins to be moved he has to have some illness this year, if he stays healthy there's no chance he's going and if he goes they will replace him with a starting caliber PG.

LB clearly stated he got Saras to be a backup pg, he's getting paid backup money and outside of earth shattering circumstances he will not get what you seem to think he should get.

SwissExpress
01-23-2006, 08:42 AM
LB clearly stated he got Saras to be a backup pg, he's getting paid backup money and outside of earth shattering circumstances he will not get what you seem to think he should get.

I just finished watching an Ali G tape and feel deep desire to ask in his style "But WHyyY? WHyyY does it always have to be said again and again?"

Harddrive7
01-23-2006, 09:15 AM
Don't you guys ever get tired of writing Kravitz articles? Regardless of your answer, as much as a lot of posters here hates his columns, what does that say about posts here that he may get his info from?

NPFII
01-23-2006, 09:24 AM
uhh considering the BYC status has been mentioned here only about 500 times, and is easily found on larry coons page, besides that in all discussions here it is/was explained many a time.................

Must've missed it, sorry...


But don't get your hopes up, in order for Tins to be moved he has to have some illness this year, if he stays healthy there's no chance he's going and if he goes they will replace him with a starting caliber PG.

I think you have it backwards. In order for Tins NOT to be moved his trade value has to drop to ZERO by being injured yet again. If he stays healthy he's out on the 1st bus. I truly hope he's still worth a starting caliber PG, and if so I think he should be packaged with Artest for an all-star caliber player like Pierce.


LB clearly stated he got Saras to be a backup pg, he's getting paid backup money and outside of earth shattering circumstances he will not get what you seem to think he should get.

Well, one can always hope. I agree Saras' 1st year should be at the backup role. If by "earth shattering circumstances" you include a change at the coaching position then we agree here as well...;)

BillS
01-23-2006, 09:43 AM
Explain to me something.

If we trade JO for an All-star, what have we gained? We still have a team with one All-star and very little to depend on the rest of the way down the roster.

Why does that suddenly make us a contender?

We have to <i>add</i> something, not just make an even trade.

Willbo
01-23-2006, 09:46 AM
Explain to me something.

If we trade JO for an All-star, what have we gained? We still have a team with one All-star and very little to depend on the rest of the way down the roster.

Why does that suddenly make us a contender?

We have to <i>add</i> something, not just make an even trade.

I think you are missing the point... Lucky we dont forward this brilliant piece to the spurs, imagine how good they could be if they traded Duncan :0

sixthman
01-23-2006, 09:57 AM
I think you are missing the point... Lucky we dont forward this brilliant piece to the spurs, imagine how good they could be if they traded Duncan :0

Jermaine O'Neal is no Tim Duncan.

Willbo
01-23-2006, 10:02 AM
Yeah but how good an all-star could they trade for.....

Slick Pinkham
01-23-2006, 10:14 AM
If Kravitz were a poster here, he might be on my ignore list.

He simply doesn't write well enough.

naptownmenace
01-23-2006, 10:36 AM
When the latest Artest mess reached critical mass, the thought here was, move the guy, give the new players a chance to get integrated, then decide by Feb. 23 whether to make subtle changes or take a blowtorch to the whole thing.

Well, nothing has happened yet. And even if it happens this week, it's not going to give coach Rick Carlisle and the rest of management enough time to know who they have, or what they have, or whether to make additional moves by the deadline.

Essentially, they've punted away a second straight season.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060123/COLUMNISTS01/601230389

This is one way the management has failed IMO by waiting the Artest trade out this long. If they had made an earlier trade, they would've had the opportunity to see how those changes worked out and perhaps could've made other changes at the trade deadline to even out the lineup.

By waiting that luxury is gone.

Instead of trying to replace Artest with close to equal value (which we know will never happen unless the Maggette deal resurfaces) they could've made a lesser trade and then traded some sort of package of Tinsley, FJ, Jack, and or Pollard for a marginal all-star talent player.

Either way, Kravitz was right about one thing - DW and Bird have mishandled and misjudged this Artest situation from the start.

FrenchConnection
01-23-2006, 10:44 AM
First Kravitz gets into Artest's head (and is a major factor in him asking for a trade imo) and now he goes after JO? You could put MJ in his prime on this team and after a 3 game losing streak Kravitz would be calling for his head.

Also, I don't understand all these calls for rebuilding via trades. I cannot think of one trade that was even going both ways that involved an all-star player. T-Mac gets traded for Franchise, Shaq for Odom and Butler, etc... All those teams got talent back, but no where near what they gave up. I hate to say this, but unless you have Joe Dumars running your team trades are not a way to rebuild. I will never know where he got the forsight to trade Stackhouse for Rip and to take Ben for Grant Hill. Either he is a genius or very lucky. You can do it through the draft (Spurs), but you can lose that way also (Bulls, Hawks, etc...). I hate to think that we have an actual rebuilding in front of us because that takes a lot of skill and luck on the part of the front office and after this Artest situation I am not sure that we have the right people up there to get that job done.

Tom White
01-23-2006, 11:03 AM
Explain to me something.

If we trade JO for an All-star, what have we gained? We still have a team with one All-star and very little to depend on the rest of the way down the roster.

Why does that suddenly make us a contender?

We have to <i>add</i> something, not just make an even trade.

Talent-wise, perhaps there would possibly not be a great gain, but what about in terms of maturity and leadership?

Mark me down as one of those who believe that, even with all of JO's talent, he still needs to grow up a bit.

sixthman
01-23-2006, 11:06 AM
First Kravitz gets into Artest's head (and is a major factor in him asking for a trade imo) and now he goes after JO?

I made that same point in another thread. In one of his trade request melt down interviews, Artest even mentioned Kravitz by name.

Kegboy
01-23-2006, 11:19 AM
Explain to me something.

If we trade JO for an All-star, what have we gained? We still have a team with one All-star and very little to depend on the rest of the way down the roster.

Why does that suddenly make us a contender?

We have to add something, not just make an even trade.

Exactly. That's the problem with :badger:. Not only is he an annoying little twit and attention whore, but he can't write a convincing argument. He pretty much says that JO's a good player, none of this is his fault, yada yada, then says we should trade him for, at best, a comparable player, without giving reasons why, not even a stereotypical "change for change sake."

Idiot.

Kegboy
01-23-2006, 11:21 AM
If Kravitz were a poster here, he might be on my ignore list.

He simply doesn't write well enough.

When I was reading the paper this morning, I wished I could press a button to Ignore his column. I try and ignore it on my own, but when he has such an inflamatory title, I can't help myself.

Hicks
01-23-2006, 11:28 AM
Good points have been made.

Trading JO for someone equally good gets us nowhere. Unless he requests a trade he should not be moved.

This whole saga is wearing on the players, and understandably so. I think unless the medical info flat-out said "this guy is never getting back to 100% again", we should have taken the Maggette offer and just let him come back in the fall if need be. This waiting game is turning into the same faulty line we walked the past two summers with refusing to trade him when we should have.

Chauncey
01-23-2006, 11:30 AM
The only seemingly possible scenario that I can come up with that would benefit the Pacers and would be desirable by the other team involved would be a deal for Dwight Howard.

Still, now is not the time for the Pacers org to be impatient. They aren't going to win a title anytime soon by rebuilding. They aren't going to be bad enough to get Greg Oden and they aren't going to get a player equal to JO's calibur back in a deal. Even if you're optimistic and think that Toronto would give up Chris Bosh, he'd be gone after a year or two in free agency. Its not time to rebuild the team, its time to reshape the team.

New system.

Tweaks in personnel.

These players have played side-by-side throughout a lot of turmoil and if the Pacers can get the right system and personnel in place, the players that are left will be the core of a championship contender again.

Here's what I do, if I'm the Pacers at this point.

1. Trade Artest for the best 22-25 year old talent you can get.

2. TPTB have a good sit down with Carlisle and "encourage" him to hire a high-profile assistant to run the offense. If he doesn't, he's out.

3. Start playing fan-friendly basketball. This is the result of #2. You have to get the city excited about Pacer basketball again. The fans and players have suffered a lot over the past couple of years and the team needs to get out there having fun again. Push the ball up the floor, have some fun out there. They're not going to be contenders for a while anyways.

4. Once the team is on the verge of contending again and needs the extra discipline, toss the coach and bring in the grizzled veteran coach with tough rules. You may find this interesting because that's where they're at right now, but the org's momentum is heading the wrong way. They need to focus on getting things going in a positive manner before they can legimitately think about contending again.

3-4 year Plan

Unclebuck
01-23-2006, 11:33 AM
I do wonder how long it has been since Kravitz has been to a Pacers game in person. The over/under on that has to be at least 6 weeks or so.

indygeezer
01-23-2006, 11:45 AM
STOP


So in that case would it make more sense to instill a new system and then complete the Artest trade? Realizing that IMO in order to instill a new system that would require a new coach? I say a new coach would be required because I see RC as too much of a micromanager to be capable of playing a different system.


OOPS sorry, posted this before I read Chauncey's post. (embarrassed)

Anthem
01-23-2006, 11:46 AM
Gotta go with Chauncey on this one. That's a good plan.

The only thing I'd add: Get a shooter. Indy digs the long ball.

BillS
01-23-2006, 12:39 PM
OK, I'm rather frightened that I agree with Chauncey.

naptownmenace
01-23-2006, 12:47 PM
Here's what I do, if I'm the Pacers at this point.

1. Trade Artest for the best 22-25 year old talent you can get.

2. TPTB have a good sit down with Carlisle and "encourage" him to hire a high-profile assistant to run the offense. If he doesn't, he's out.

3. Start playing fan-friendly basketball. This is the result of #2. You have to get the city excited about Pacer basketball again. The fans and players have suffered a lot over the past couple of years and the team needs to get out there having fun again. Push the ball up the floor, have some fun out there. They're not going to be contenders for a while anyways.

4. Once the team is on the verge of contending again and needs the extra discipline, toss the coach and bring in the grizzled veteran coach with tough rules. You may find this interesting because that's where they're at right now, but the org's momentum is heading the wrong way. They need to focus on getting things going in a positive manner before they can legimitately think about contending again.

3-4 year Plan


I'm digging that plan.

Ain't it funny how time changes things? I'm now finding myself agreeing with Chauncey on every point he makes. Has he changed or have I? :hmm:

Slick Pinkham
01-23-2006, 12:49 PM
I liked our offense when it was Carlisle only job to run our offense (under Bird).

It was a jump shooting offense that didn't draw fouls or get lots of easy inside hoops, but we had the jump shooters to pull it off.

Fool
01-23-2006, 12:54 PM
So you wait till Artest blows up because of the offense to fire the coach because of the offense?

Is this why most teams fire the coach before they get rid of the player?

grace
01-23-2006, 12:59 PM
I think unless the medical info flat-out said "this guy is never getting back to 100% again", we should have taken the Maggette offer and just let him come back in the fall if need be.

Well considering recent Pacer history I can pretty much guarantee if he ever did get back to 100% (which is certainly doubtful: see Jeff Foster) he sure to hurt his other foot (see AJ's broken hand two years in a row).

CableKC
01-23-2006, 02:02 PM
I take it that Bob Kravitz doesn't like the Pacers at all.....is there anything ever positive that this guy says about the team?

I understand his call to trade Artest ( which he was admittedly 100% right on ), Tinsley and SJax......but JONeal? I'm not being a homer for JONeal.....but we have to build around someone and despite his tendency to somehow get injured....like it or not.....JONeal is the franchise player that we can build around. With his relative young age given the # of season he has been playing....I don't think its a good idea to completely and literallly rebuild from scratch. Cut off the tree branches and twigs that is weighing down the tree......no problem....but rip out the trunk of the tree? That sounds too harsh to me.

The furtherest we can go....beyond trading SJax and Tinsley.......which some of us may or may not agree with......is to let Carlisle go and get a new coach so that we can get as many of you say...down to a new offense/defense. Personally....I think that trading SJax and Tinsley is a good enough start.

sweabs
01-23-2006, 02:15 PM
If it makes any difference, I was advocating a possible trade for JO in the summer. Either Chris Bosh or Dwight Howard would have satisfied my needs.

However, there was a stretch where JO really started to grow on me; he was aggressive in a way that I had never seen him play before. He was attacking the rim, and snagging rebounds. If that JO can show up every game, then that's the JO I want to keep. Of course, he's not getting any younger.

Dwight Howard is a rebounding machine; and to be honest, I'm sick and tired of getting outrebounded by mediocre teams.

JO is getting older, Saras is older - these are guys who need to win now, while they're still in their prime. However, there is a disharmony among the age discrepency on our team, as guys like JO and Saras have to wait for the players like Granger, Harrison, etc. to develop.

I think we need to take one route and go with it...and right now, the youthful pathway is looking best in my eyes. Let's face it - for the last 4-5 years, we have gone with a vision, and it has failed. Now that pieces are falling out of place, we can't expect things to carry on from where they left off. Ron and JO were the foundations of which this vision was built upon - and take Ron out of the equation (a crucial part of the base), and the whole thing crumbles.

Kstat
01-23-2006, 02:17 PM
Either Chris Bosh or Dwight Howard would have satisfied my needs.

......and neither one would be a realistic idea.

sweabs
01-23-2006, 02:19 PM
......and neither one would be a realistic idea.

Remember...I was advocating a trade during the offseason. Before these guys really came into their own this year.

Kstat
01-23-2006, 02:22 PM
Remember...I was advocating a trade during the offseason. Before these guys really came into their own this year.

I think you may have had a prayer for Bosh but Howard was a beast from day 1.

McKeyFan
01-23-2006, 02:23 PM
......and neither one would be a realistic idea.

I'm not a huge JO fan, but I think his trade value may be high enough to get either of those players. Or, by "realistic idea," do you mean something other than those teams' willingness to do the trade?

sweabs
01-23-2006, 02:25 PM
I think you may have had a prayer for Bosh but Howard was a beast from day 1.

I believe either team would have listened intently to an offer of JO at that time; and yes, in particular, Toronto.

I also remember people ripping me for advocating such a thing :D

Kstat
01-23-2006, 02:26 PM
I'm not a huge JO fan, but I think his trade value may be high enough to get either of those players. Or, by "realistic idea," do you mean something other than those teams' willingness to do the trade?

No, I mean that neither team would trade a stud young big man playing on his rookie deal for a player who (A) has half as many quality years left in his career, and (B) is making $120 million.

The Magic and Raptors can lose games just as fine without a max player.

Both Bosh and Dwight Howard aren't very far behind JO to begin with, production-wise.

It would absolutely cripple any and all attempts to improve the team via free agency.

Dwight Howard, especially. His trade value is great enough to get any player in the NBA not named Wade, Shaq, Lebron, or Duncan.

Bosh is the lesser prospect of the two, but he still averages more points, assists, shoots a higher percentagefrom the field and the line, and he only averages 0.4 boards less than JO.

....and Bosh is 6 years younger.

Say I'm the GM of the Raptors. What could you possibly say to me to get me to trade Bosh for O'Neal?

sweabs
01-23-2006, 02:29 PM
No, I mean that neither team would trade a stud young big man playing on his rookie deal for a player who (A) has half as many quality years left in his career, and (B) is making $120 million.

The Magic and Raptors can lose games just as fine without a max player.

Both Bosh and Dwight Howard aren't very far behind JO to begin with.

It would absolutely cripple any and all attempts to improve the team via free agency.

Dwight Howard, especially. His trade value is great enough tog et any player in the NBA not named Wade, Lebron, or DUnan.

Contrastingly, there were still a lot of question marks surrounding Bosh's game before this year...and to be offered a reputable all-star in JO would have seen like gold to Babcock, of all people.

As for Orlando, I agree with you that Dwight has been a beast from Day 1. I'm just wondering if they would have thought long and hard about trying to make some serious playoff noise around a possible trio of Francis, JO, and Grant Hill (from management's persepective).

McClintic Sphere
01-23-2006, 02:37 PM
When I was reading the paper this morning, I wished I could press a button to Ignore his column. I try and ignore it on my own, but when he has such an inflamatory title, I can't help myself.

ditto. The real problem I have with Kravitz vis-a-vis the Pacers is that he can barely seem to hide his contempt for them or the NBA, even when things are going well. What is also infuriating is that his conjecture lacks any real practicality. Get rid of Artest for a bag of balls and a bent rim. Righto. Trade JO and start over. What would be the highest priority acquisition in starting to build a team? Oh, maybe a big man who can score and rebound pretty well, is young, and has a fairly good work ethic and rapport with teammates. Uh, that would be JO, dumba**.

blanket
01-23-2006, 02:42 PM
Say I'm the GM of the Raptors. What could you possibly say to me to get me to trade Bosh for O'Neal?

They're likely to lose him to free agency in 2008 if they can't get him extended this summer, so if he balks at becoming the face of the Raptor franchise (as many other players have), I could see them trading him for a top 20 player who is locked up long term.

Marquee, impact free agents are not attracted to Toronto, and those that do sign there are typically just going to the highest bidder. I don't think the Raptors can build a team through free agency, so if their own top draft picks won't resign with them then they need to trade for their talent.

According to an ESPN interview with JO that came out sometime over the last month, the Pacers discussed trading JO to Toronto last summer for Bosh. If the Raptors don't think they can hang on to Bosh, then I can see them trading him for a young, proven big with a locked-in contract like JO. Whether it happens this summer or next remains to be seen.

Chauncey
01-23-2006, 03:00 PM
They're likely to lose him to free agency in 2008 if they can't get him extended this summer, so if he balks at becoming the face of the Raptor franchise (as many other players have), I could see them trading him for a top 20 player who is locked up long term.

Marquee, impact free agents are not attracted to Toronto, and those that do sign there are typically just going to the highest bidder. I don't think the Raptors can build a team through free agency, so if their own top draft picks won't resign with them then they need to trade for their talent.

According to an ESPN interview with JO that came out sometime over the last month, the Pacers discussed trading JO to Toronto last summer for Bosh. If the Raptors don't think they can hang on to Bosh, then I can see them trading him for a young, proven big with a locked-in contract like JO. Whether it happens this summer or next remains to be seen.

The problem with Bosh is that he's just as unlikely to resign with Indiana as he is to resign with Toronto. Bosh is going to have his choice of destinations, including having the Lakers basically already saying that he's the reason they're clearing cap room for 2007 and 2008.

CableKC
01-23-2006, 03:03 PM
Remember...I was advocating a trade during the offseason. Before these guys really came into their own this year.
It would have been too late anyway....both Dwight and Bosh were already there by the end of the 2004 season.

Chauncey
01-23-2006, 03:06 PM
Just a random thought that entered my head...

JO for Pierce + Jefferson? Surely the Celtics wouldn't do this, would they?

Kstat
01-23-2006, 03:08 PM
Just a random thought that entered my head...

JO for Pierce + Jefferson? Surely the Celtics wouldn't do this, would they?

I think they would.

Jefferson isn't in the Bosh/Howard plateau. He's going to be very good, but not at that level.

I think it's definately a deal that Boston would do.

denyfizle
01-23-2006, 03:15 PM
The one person we should move out of INDY is Kravitz. The Pacers are going to be just fine. I used to be one who'd overreact a lot too. And I used to want JO to be traded as well. As long as we make it in the playoffs and we get our players healthy and a decent trade for Artest, all is not lost. The only player whom I adamantly think we can get rid of is still just Stephen Jackson. Our PG situation needs some fine tuning to, maybe get rid of either JT or AJ but that's it. Pacers fans have more faith than that to get swayed by this idiot Kravitz high stepping.

sweabs
01-23-2006, 03:53 PM
It would have been too late anyway....both Dwight and Bosh were already there by the end of the 2004 season.

Neither are playing at the level they are right now - in particular, Chris Bosh. It's amazing to see how his game has developed just over the last year.

Ultimate Frisbee
01-23-2006, 04:12 PM
Kravitz = my least favorite writer ever

But, in this case, I actually agree with what he is saying...