PDA

View Full Version : Something to discuss... when did it become a rule to pull your stars in garbage time?



Kstat
01-23-2006, 03:58 AM
You know, I was thinking yesterday about when exactly this "dont humiliate your opponent" thing started.

A big reason about why Wilt averaged 50ppg in 1962 is because HE NEVER LEFT THE GAME.

Wilt AVERAGED 48.5 minutes per game in 1962 (6 OT games). He only sat down in 3 games all season, for any period of time.

That means there were a LOT of games where Wilt was stat-padding during blowouts of overmatched teams. Yet, I don't remember ONE person complaining about it.

Just something to think about, when thinking of pulling players during blowouts. Do teams even do it out of sportsmanship, or do they just want to protect their multi-million dollar investments?

Jose Slaughter
01-23-2006, 04:09 AM
It might have something to do with the amount of games played now as well.

I don't recall off the top of my head the length of the season in 1962 but I'm sure it was a lot shorter than 82 games.

The over riding thought now is, dont humiliate your opponent but teams also want to rest their core players. Also the team in front usually only clears their bench after the team getting it handed to them does.

Kstat
01-23-2006, 04:13 AM
they played an 80-game season in 1962, and didn't have the luxury of haveing luxury planes to take them from city to city.

SwissExpress
01-23-2006, 04:19 AM
You know, I was thinking yesterday about when exactly this "dont humiliate your opponent" thing started.

A big reason about why Wilt averaged 50ppg in 1962 is because HE NEVER LEFT THE GAME.

Wilt AVERAGED 48.5 minutes per game in 1962 (6 OT games). He only sat down in 3 games all season, for any period of time.

That means there were a LOT of games where Wilt was stat-padding during blowouts of overmatched teams. Yet, I don't remember ONE person complaining about it.

Just something to think about, when thinking of pulling players during blowouts. Do teams even do it out of sportsmanship, or do they just want to protect their multi-million dollar investments?

Good observation. Never thought about that.
Besides the longer season, today superstars are much closer to other NBA players then they were in Wilt's days. Tired Shaq gets beaten by Ben Wallace (as in the play-offs last year), tired LeBron hardly scores in the 4th quater (as in a number of recent games), etc... Tired Wilt still was an unstopable player for oposing teams. He could probably take naps during plays and still score:)

SwissExpress
01-23-2006, 06:18 AM
But what is really interesting here - to my opinion - is that this change in attitude - seemingly selfish in its origin - gradually became a rule of etiquette. Teams start resting their key players more often simply in order to keep them efficient. And in a couple of decades players for some reason start looking at that as a part of some code of honour: Kobe should not stay in during garbage time; it would be unnecessary humiliation of the losing team, e.g. Dallas.
I'm not sure how firm these views are among players, but it's still interesting to hear about them.

NPFII
01-23-2006, 06:44 AM
It has a lot to do with the nature of the game, which has changed since 1962... Today's game is faster, more physical, players are stronger, bigger, quicker. They spend more energy per minute played, and they tire more rapidly. This brings the injury a step closer, and being injured is #1 on the list of things that you try to avoid.

Add to that the fact that the overall basketball level of the backups (who may be promising prospects) and the starters is closer today than it was 40 years ago, and that those backups "need" playing time to develop, and you have 2 major reasons why it's become a rule:

1. Rest the stars to avoid injuries.
2. Develop your backups by giving them minutes.

Kegboy
01-23-2006, 10:40 AM
About the same time that the opening tip became a love fest between opposing players.

[/grace]

Skaut_Ech
01-23-2006, 11:38 AM
About the same time that the opening tip became a love fest between opposing players.

[/grace]

Not to digress, but don't get me started. I hardly watch when free throws are being shot because I am SICK of how after every shot, the shooter's teammates have to touch hands with him, hit or miss. When did THAT crap start?

Shade
01-23-2006, 11:52 AM
To kind of offset that notion a little though, bear in mind that Wilt played at a time when there were no three-pointers. Kobe knocked down some treys to get to 81.

Not to take anything away from Kobe, as that was as phenomenal a moment as I've ever lived through, but when Kobe starts pulling down 30+ boards to go down with those 81 points, we'll start putting them in the same sentence together. ;)

grace
01-23-2006, 12:07 PM
About the same time that the opening tip became a love fest between opposing players.

[/grace]

You got that right. There's too much hugging in basketball. Shake hands when the game's over if you feel the need, but for God's sake STOP HUGGING THE ENEMY!!! :pissed:

Chauncey
01-23-2006, 12:09 PM
To kind of offset that notion a little though, bear in mind that Wilt played at a time when there were no three-pointers. Kobe knocked down some treys to get to 81.



So exactly how many 3 pointers would Wilt have hit? LMFAO.

BTW, Dan Wetzel has something to say to you:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AsNLakFU9NbhYcWWyrU.G6y8vLYF?slug=dw-kobe012206&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Stryder
01-23-2006, 12:16 PM
So exactly how many 3 pointers would Wilt have hit? LMFAO.

BTW, Dan Wetzel has something to say to you:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AsNLakFU9NbhYcWWyrU.G6y8vLYF?slug=dw-kobe012206&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Exactly.

Would Wilt have tried those three pointers underhanded also?

People, get real, even if the three point line would have existed in Wilt's time, he would NOT have shot any...so it is a moot point. And to including that scenario in any argument, automatically makes it invalid.

Kegboy
01-23-2006, 12:21 PM
Yes, it is an amazing feat, until you think, how many would Wilt have scored against an NBA team that lost an exhibition to a bunch of Euro's. :blush:

grace
01-23-2006, 12:27 PM
Exactly.

Would Wilt have tried those three pointers underhanded also?

People, get real, even if the three point line would have existed in Wilt's time, he would NOT have shot any...so it is a moot point. And to including that scenario in any argument, automatically makes it invalid.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Wilt the one who claims to have slept with 10,000 women. Of course he would have learned to shoot threes. Why? Because Chicks Dig The Long Ball (or something like that). :D

Stryder
01-23-2006, 12:29 PM
Yes, it is an amazing feat, until you think, how many would Wilt have scored against an NBA team that lost an exhibition to a bunch of Euro's. :blush:


Well, who was Wilt playing when he scored 100 points? I believe it was the Knicks...

Shade
01-23-2006, 02:26 PM
So exactly how many 3 pointers would Wilt have hit? LMFAO.

BTW, Dan Wetzel has something to say to you:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AsNLakFU9NbhYcWWyrU.G6y8vLYF?slug=dw-kobe012206&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that, all things equal, Kobe wouldn't have had 81 because those threes would have counted as twos.

Hicks
01-23-2006, 02:50 PM
If the 3 ball was that special, we'd have more 70-80 pt games already. This was special.

Kestas
01-23-2006, 02:53 PM
Yes, it is an amazing feat, until you think, how many would Wilt have scored against an NBA team that lost an exhibition to a bunch of Euro's. :blush:

, said a guy with a Russian user title.

Slick Pinkham
01-23-2006, 02:54 PM
Wilt ... claims to have slept with 10,000 women.

If you count his pregame warmup, his halftime break, and the postgame festivities,

he actually scored 104 times that night.

;)

Kegboy
01-23-2006, 06:04 PM
, said a guy with a Russian user title.

:devil:

Eindar
01-23-2006, 06:41 PM
I think there are two mitigating circumstances, and please, correct me if I'm wrong, I was born almost 20 years after Wilt's 100 point game.

First, Kobe would have had about 8 less points due to there being no 3 point line, so that puts him a little further behind Wilt in the "I scored a crapload of points" competition.

Second, and more importantly, when did they institute the goaltending rule? I'm assuming Wilt's 100 point game was before this rule was added. If so, it makes it MUCH easier to score in bunches when you're a man among boys and you can snatch an opponent's shot off the rim or out of thin air (rebounds), put back your own missed shot much easier, or, for that matter, grab a teammate's shot that is on it's way down and help it into the bucket (points). Goaltending changes many, many dynamics of the game, and unless a videotape of the game is ever found, we'll never know how much of an influence that had on Wilt's 100.

As to garbage time, it's a good thing to pull the starters and put in the scrubs, obviously. I guess I get a little upset when I see the Pacers getting beat by 25 or more halfway through the 4th and the starters are still in the game for the other team. I think the two go hand in hand. These days, to not rest your starters, as is common practice during garbage time, says to the other team that you want to make the score worse than it is, even if that costs you a game tomorrow, or even an injury. Every second your starters play is a chance to injure themselves, and I think players injure themselves more often than they used to, due to the speed and athleticism of the game now.

On the other hand, you could say that this is just more PC crap, along the same lines as "We don't keep score in teeball, that way nobody feels like they lost". It's hard to say who's right in this scenario.

cariocapacer
01-24-2006, 01:15 PM
In addition to the actual points added by the 3 point shot I think one needs to consider how the 3 point shot opens up the game forcing defenses outward and opening up the middle. I think this helps someone like Kobe and hurt Wilt (on a relative basis).

ChicagoJ
01-24-2006, 01:41 PM
Wilt had to go up against Russell nine or ten times every regular season. And Walt Bellamy. He didn't have it "that" easy.

And the Warriors were a one-man team, so I don't know how many big-time blowouts they had.

Besides, a final of 135-115 (20 points) is a lot closer game than a score of 90-75 (fifteen points) that we see today.

Slick Pinkham
01-24-2006, 01:48 PM
Second, and more importantly, when did they institute the goaltending rule? I'm assuming Wilt's 100 point game was before this rule was added.

Defensive goaltending was outlawed in 1945 and offensive goaltending was banned in 1958.

http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/basketball/nba/nbahistory.htm

None of Wilts points were "tainted" by goaltending rules.

The only significant difference rules-wise is a 12 foot lane instead of 16, the 3-pointer, and the no hand-check rule which favors guys like Kobe.