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View Full Version : POLL - Is it time for Walsh to step aside?



Bball
01-22-2006, 11:44 PM
OK... I made mention of this in another thread and surprisingly (to me) I didn't get jumped on. Now, maybe I was just ignored... that's always possible. Or maybe the idea isn't so crazy. Or maybe people don't feel so secure in defending him right now.

In any case... Don't answer this with the idea that Bird is the heir apparent and let that affect your answer. IOW: Don't say "'NO', it's not time for Walsh to step aside because there's no way I want Bird in his place" if you believe it is time that Walsh steps aside. If you believe it's time Walsh steps aside then just answer YES... don't consider who might follow him. You can discuss that in the thread. I'd just like to get an accurate read on who's happy with Walsh right now and who thinks his time has come and past.

Maybe you've jumped camps... maybe you've lost confidence in late. Maybe you think the NBA has changed. Maybe you feel better than ever to see Walsh take the public lead on the Artest situation.

Feel free to explain your choice.

-BBall

Kaufman
01-22-2006, 11:50 PM
Because Ron screwed up we can the guy who brought us back from the Dead. I hope this doesn't reflect your opinion but I can't believe that it doesn't since you are even thinking the question, bball.

Hicks
01-22-2006, 11:52 PM
It's not time for him to step aside. Things look bad right now, but we're far from NYK territory.

Bball
01-22-2006, 11:52 PM
Because Ron screwed up we can the guy who brought us back from the Dead. I hope this doesn't reflect your opinion but I can't believe that it doesn't since you are even thinking the question, bball.

At this point... I think EVERYONE in the organization needs looked at with a critical eye.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
01-22-2006, 11:59 PM
To turn this thing around, we are going to need some great picks in the draft for the next few years.... and Donnie seems to be pretty good there.

Kaufman
01-23-2006, 12:03 AM
I don't see anything to indicate that DW has made a professionally critical error at this point. And for all that he has done for the franchise, I don't think that a bad year between last November and this January are enough to ouster him. At this point, and for all that he did for the team, he names his own destiny. I and you are nobody. I can't understand this rash decision making that all the fans are making. Geez we've been spoiled to death having all these great teams over the years, and now a bump in the road and we've got to hurry up and pull the trigger on any GD mind numbingly stupid trade for a top #10-15 talent, and now we need to fire our GD leader who probably has forgotten more information about the P's than you ever knew.

I just don't get it. If you're a fan, act like a fan. Firing and trading?? GDI what makes you think we're going to get better than DW? Who is BETTER? Think about these things before you ask these questions man.

Ok no hard feelings.

Slick Pinkham
01-23-2006, 12:05 AM
DW has assembled enough talent.

Some betray him with their character and fragility.

I don't blame DW for either. I just wish he was occasinally pro-active and fixed things faster.

Bball
01-23-2006, 12:05 AM
To turn this thing around, we are going to need some great picks in the draft for the next few years.... and Donnie seems to be pretty good there.

He has that reputation doesn't he? ...I'm not sure how it averages out tho. We've had some 'interesting' picks as well.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
01-23-2006, 12:07 AM
He has that reputation doesn't he? ...I'm not sure how it averages out tho. We've had some 'interesting' picks as well.

-Bball

I knew you would question this, there was an analysis done of the last 10 drafts done at some point last year, they rated the Pacers as #2 behind SA.

I might try to dig it up later.

Arcadian
01-23-2006, 12:14 AM
Boo private poll.

I didn't say anything in the other thread because I have known that is how you have felt about Donnie for a long time. That's like arguing Peck on Foster, Anthem on Cro, Jay on Chuck, Ragnar on AJ, Hicks/Harmonica on Brad or Uncle Buck on Ron...OK the last one might not be valid anymore but the drift is there.

Anyway as a sunshine man I love Donnie.

Bball
01-23-2006, 12:17 AM
I keep forgetting about the private/public poll thing. I'm fine with it being a public poll.

-Bball

twscholl
01-23-2006, 12:33 AM
Bball- I did jump on this in the other thread. What the Pacers seem to lack is a leader on the court. JO is a follower, Jax is a slacker and no one else on the tam has the respect to lead the team. While I can share in a frustration with Donnie for not getting this Knucklehead scenario solved, I don't think it is time to turn our blame to the leader.

Anthem
01-23-2006, 01:09 AM
Ask me after we trade Ron.

Bball
01-23-2006, 02:08 AM
Ask me after we trade Ron.

Will you still be here next summer?

-BBall

SoupIsGood
01-23-2006, 02:19 AM
Ask me after we trade Ron.

I'm anxious to how Donnie approaches the trade.

Will he try to salavage this season? Will he make it an all-out move for the future? A mix of both?



You know, I could live with absoutely tanking the next year and a half if it got us Oden, that guy is going to be great.

CableKC
01-23-2006, 02:33 AM
Because its taking this long...do you take it as an indictment that Walsh is losing it and therefore should step aside?

Do you bring this question up because of the length of how long its taking Walsh to trade Artest?

I don't like that its taking this long....in fact....its killing me. But this question can't be answered until we see what we get back, if we can get an inkling of what we could have gotten ( which we probably won't ) and understand the reasoning why Walsh did what he did. Until then.......I don't think we can pass judgement on Walsh.

Anthem
01-23-2006, 02:34 AM
That's like arguing Peck on Foster, Anthem on Cro, Jay on Chuck, Ragnar on AJ, Hicks/Harmonica on Brad or Uncle Buck on Ron...OK the last one might not be valid anymore but the drift is there.
Ouch. Am I that bad?

I like Cro, and always have. I've said on multiple occasions that he was still capable of earning his contract (which almost nobody else will say). I just think his problems in 2001-2004 were his problems, not Zeke's.

Anthem
01-23-2006, 02:34 AM
Will you still be here next summer?

-BBall
Will you? :D

Bball
01-23-2006, 03:15 AM
Because its taking this long...do you take it as an indictment that Walsh is losing it and therefore should step aside?

Do you bring this question up because of the length of how long its taking Walsh to trade Artest?

I don't like that its taking this long....in fact....its killing me. But this question can't be answered until we see what we get back, if we can get an inkling of what we could have gotten ( which we probably won't ) and understand the reasoning why Walsh did what he did. Until then.......I don't think we can pass judgement on Walsh.

I bring this question up because this season and last have went up in smoke for one reason or another and what did we do about it? We were able to make chicken salad of it last season to some degree but there is no 'feel good' story to look at now.

I also bring it up because of the salary hell we've found ourselves in these past few years and player moves and non-moves in that period.

I bring it up because I'm really skeptical that Walsh can ever out maneuver Joe Dumars. Dumars has been too proactive and too good (so far). Donnie is anything but proactive. Don't we possibly need a different approach if we ever hope to beat them any time soon (in a series)?

I bring it up because we have question marks nearly everywhere. Generally, the buck stops at the top. That is Walsh.

I bring it up because the East isn't standing still and waiting for the Pacers to get their act together... while the Pacers are standing still and showing little hope of getting their act together.

I bring it up because we held onto Isiah Thomas at least 1 year if not 2 years longer than we should've.

I bring it up due to the Jonathon Bender situation that should've never gotten to this point.

I bring it up for those that questioned the handling of the 99 and 2000 teams
as being mishandled and can now ask what it all has gotten us?

I bring it up due to the booing in Conseco fieldhouse.

I bring it up due to the fan apathy that seems ready to explode... or implode...

I bring it up due to the chemistry issues that we just can't get a hold on... and seeming disinterest or ability by management to address.

I bring it up due to the flawed nature of the team and lack of balance.... and it is an ongoing problem that goes back far deeper than just the past couple of years (even Walsh has admitted as much).

I bring it up because of the flawed handling of the Artest mess (pick one... ).

And I bring it up because I think no one associated with the franchise should be immune to scrutiny.

----

Surely something in that makes the question worthy of discussion...


-Bball

Bball
01-23-2006, 03:27 AM
Will you? :D


That's a good question.

I was pretty much numb to some of this stuff originally. Especially after last season's collapse. I think the failings of this season became clear to some of us a little early on. Hope was still there, but there were some cracks that were big enough to cause worry.

How many times was someone saying "We just need to wait... the team needs to gel"? It started to wear thin. And then at the Mavs game it really started to sink in that we weren't very good (not 'good' in the sense of a team with championship aspirations). This team just wasn't responding.

And then the wheels came off.

So I kind of resigned myself to our immediate fate.

But as the days have worn on I'm not seeing 'things' I'd like to see (or hear) that tells me management is working on this thing. We're spinning our wheels. This season isn't about now... it isn't about tomorrow... In fact, I'm not sure what it's about - And I guess that's the point.

So lately, I've been reaching, trying to find what is central to this whole thing. Throwing spaghetti at the wall, if you will.

I tell you what caught my attention today was reading some threads and coming to the realization that our chemistry problems might just be coming from the top. I'm not convinced that TPTB are on the same page. Bird's comments... Carlisle's comments... and what we've heard from Walsh... don't all jive. And if there isn't a single focus in the front office then there should be no surprise that there's no single focus on the court either.

And then for a few weeks in the interim I had the Colts to follow while the Pacers spun out of control. The Colts took some of the edge off... Took.. as in past tense. Now the Pacers have my full attention again and things aren't pretty. ..Or looking up...

--
I'll stop the introspective right here... That was long and pointless wasn't it?

-Bball

Harmonica
01-23-2006, 03:34 AM
I bring this question up because this season and last have went up in smoke for one reason or another and what did we do about it? We were able to make chicken salad of it last season to some degree but there is no 'feel good' story to look at now.

I also bring it up because of the salary hell we've found ourselves in these past few years and player moves and non-moves in that period.

I bring it up because I'm really skeptical that Walsh can ever out maneuver Joe Dumars. Dumars has been too proactive and too good (so far). Donnie is anything but proactive. Don't we possibly need a different approach if we ever hope to beat them any time soon (in a series)?

I bring it up because we have question marks nearly everywhere. Generally, the buck stops at the top. That is Walsh.

I bring it up because the East isn't standing still and waiting for the Pacers to get their act together... while the Pacers are standing still and showing little hope of getting their act together.

I bring it up because we held onto Isiah Thomas at least 1 year if not 2 years longer than we should've.

I bring it up due to the Jonathon Bender situation that should've never gotten to this point.

I bring it up for those that questioned the handling of the 99 and 2000 teams
as being mishandled and can now ask what it all has gotten us?

I bring it up due to the booing in Conseco fieldhouse.

I bring it up due to the fan apathy that seems ready to explode... or implode...

I bring it up due to the chemistry issues that we just can't get a hold on... and seeming disinterest or ability by management to address.

I bring it up due to the flawed nature of the team and lack of balance.... and it is an ongoing problem that goes back far deeper than just the past couple of years (even Walsh has admitted as much).

I bring it up because of the flawed handling of the Artest mess (pick one... ).

And I bring it up because I think no one associated with the franchise should be immune to scrutiny.

And yet you're a Bush man.

Ultimate Frisbee
01-23-2006, 03:37 AM
I'll make this call after the trade goes down.. until then I vote no.

Los Angeles
01-23-2006, 04:17 AM
And yet you're a Bush man.
ZING!

Bball, do you care about anyone associated with the team anymore? If so, who? If you think that so many people need to be fired or traded or whatever, why are you still a Pacer fan?

I'm not trying to be a smart-***, I'm really curious about this. Thanks in advance. :)

Bball
01-23-2006, 05:01 AM
ZING!

Bball, do you care about anyone associated with the team anymore? If so, who? If you think that so many people need to be fired or traded or whatever, why are you still a Pacer fan?

I'm not trying to be a smart-***, I'm really curious about this. Thanks in advance. :)

I'm just asking questions...

As far as the team goes... I only have a -problem- with Tinsley. We can trade him immediately as far as I am concerned. I'm not asking questions about Tinsley. I've made up my mind there.

I have questions about Carlisle and the team. I've been fine with Carlisle but he and this team have been thru so much that I have questions about the mix and if the team is really responding to him 1-15 (or 13 as the case may be). ...And I question if he's even coaching like Bird wants him to (or expected).

I have questions about JO. I am convinced I enjoy watching the team play more when he's NOT playing. So maybe I have a skewed view of what I want to see... Or maybe I don't like how JO's being used. Or maybe JO demands he be used in this way and by virtue of his contract nobody will tell the emperor he has no clothes. I really don't know.

There's plenty about the team I like... but they are making it harder and harder of late. I really want to see this season start being about something. ...Even if it is the future. And the fault for that starts falling on management's shoulders.

-Bball

Los Angeles
01-23-2006, 11:59 AM
I'm just asking questions...

As far as the team goes... I only have a -problem- with Tinsley. We can trade him immediately as far as I am concerned. I'm not asking questions about Tinsley. I've made up my mind there.

I have questions about Carlisle and the team. I've been fine with Carlisle but he and this team have been thru so much that I have questions about the mix and if the team is really responding to him 1-15 (or 13 as the case may be). ...And I question if he's even coaching like Bird wants him to (or expected).

I have questions about JO. I am convinced I enjoy watching the team play more when he's NOT playing. So maybe I have a skewed view of what I want to see... Or maybe I don't like how JO's being used. Or maybe JO demands he be used in this way and by virtue of his contract nobody will tell the emperor he has no clothes. I really don't know.

There's plenty about the team I like... but they are making it harder and harder of late. I really want to see this season start being about something. ...Even if it is the future. And the fault for that starts falling on management's shoulders.

-Bball
Seriously - thank you for your even tempered and clear response.

Peck
01-23-2006, 02:54 PM
Because Ron screwed up we can the guy who brought us back from the Dead. I hope this doesn't reflect your opinion but I can't believe that it doesn't since you are even thinking the question, bball.


I'm not trying to pick on you Kaufman but I am going to use your post as a jumping on point.

How many years does he get for "bringing us back from the dead"?

Most of the fans on this board today were either very young (to young to remember or weren't even born yet).

Walsh took over this team in 1985. This is now 2006.

I am willing to say that maybe his continued march towards the playoffs would make it that he doesn't get canned. But I think the statute of limitations has run out on the good will we must all exhibit for Donnie bringing us back from the dead.

Here is my problem with Walsh when it comes to discussing him online.

He is litteraly the teflon GM for exactly the reason that Kaufman just stated. You can only say positive great things about Donnie or you are subjected to his loyal fans rushing to jump to his aid by reminding you how bad it was before he got here.

The falicy in that argument, at least to me, is that it is assuming that only he could have done this. That only his way would work.

It's kind of like trying to heard cats.

He is also apperantly blessed with the ability to never do anything wrong & do the perfect thing each & every time.

No trade was made? Well we don't make trades for the sake of trades, we don't make knee jerk reactions, etc., etc.

We made a trade? We swindled the other team, we always get the better end of a trade.

Respect? No G.M. in the history of the NBA has more respect that Donnie Walsh.

This is what I've had to deal with over the past few years while trying to explain the one thing that no one ever wants to confront.

Donnie Walsh is NOT held to the same standards as he has held previous coach's.

When he fired Bob Hill he came right out & said in the press conferance that it wasn't that Bob was a bad coach or that the team had tuned him out.

He said Bob was not able to take the team to the next level.

Donnie Walsh has made the team competative for years. Donnie has even on a couple of times made them contenders.

However Donnie Walsh in 21 years has not been able to take the team to the next level.

Donnie has benefitted from several things over the years.

1. A weak, soft fan base.

2. A weak, soft press.

3. Patient owners.

4. low expectations


Donnie would never have made it 5 years in Boston, Philly, NY or L.A.

Donnie is always credited with the good that this club has done but yet is never saddled with any critism when things go poorly.

My new hope lies in what I said above. Most of these guys have no idea what it was like before Walsh so therfor there will not be this undyling loyalty that he gets from some of the older Walsh Warriors.

Now that I've said all of that let me state this.

I do not totally blame Walsh for what has happened. Yes, it is his fault but he rolled the dice & it came up craps.

Several of us all along were complaining that we were not getting enough character players but over the years we complained about not getting enough talented players either.

So I understand we can't have it both ways.

I also think Donnie did step back last year & let Larry take lead. I've always felt like Ron would be sent packing early on if Donnie were acting alone.

But I think Donnie tried to let Larry build a team he wanted & once it blew up I think Donnie has taken back the reigns.

So to answer your overall question.

Walsh should step up, not down.

Until he dies he will have a place with the Simons because he has built the franchise up to where the value of the club is so high the Simons can borrow against it for as long as they want.

But if we actually are going to start over, maybe we should start over totally fresh.

CableKC
01-23-2006, 03:13 PM
I'll stop the introspective right here... That was long and pointless wasn't it?

-Bball
Not long and pointless......this sounds like your "Dear John" letter to Walsh. I'm guessing that you have adequately vented your frustrations. I see your point as the "Should Donnie step aside?" question has been festering for the last 2 years with the boiling point being the 2nd Artest fiasco.

For now...I will hold judgement until we see what magic ( if any ) that he can whip up before the end of the trade deadline. But to tell you the truth....I am weary because I have a feeling that Walsh/Bird is being too hardlined on what they want back for Artest....but given that they have a greater vision for the team then we do and can't simply do a trade just to do a trade....I understand that we have to wait and see what happens.

Bball
01-23-2006, 09:17 PM
Well, it seems the support is stil there. The votes are over 2 to 1 in favor of Walsh.

Apparently the support is simply not as vocal as it once was (which may mean the supporters are even more confident... or more polite than some have been in the past).

-Bball

Kaufman
01-23-2006, 09:49 PM
Peck,

I sincerely appreciate your disclaimer. It was a very respectful way of raising issue with one poster's reasoning (mine) and pointing out your own thoughts. I hope some other young and new posters can learn from your style, if nothing else. Respectfully, I disagree with the tone of your post, but my hands are just too tired to type out a long winded response, especially when most people know what the counter to your argument is.

Jermaniac
01-23-2006, 10:37 PM
Yes he needs to quit or retire whatever the hell just as long as he isnt running this team anymore. Watching us suffer like this and suck on the court, when its clear we need help and he continues to say we are narrowing teams down. Other GM's would have traded Ron 80 times in this time period.

Jaydawg2270
01-23-2006, 10:42 PM
Step Down Walsh go head step down

Bball
01-23-2006, 10:43 PM
Yes he needs to quit or retire whatever the hell just as long as he isnt running this team anymore. Watching us suffer like this and suck on the court, when its clear we need help and he continues to say we are narrowing teams down. Other GM's would have traded Ron 80 times in this time period.


Don't worry... Harmonica is going to hand deliver my resume', and put in a good word for me so I can get the gig, and then we'll see knee jerk moves like you've never seen before!

;)

:cry:

-Bball

Hicks
01-23-2006, 10:44 PM
:rockon:

Harmonica
01-23-2006, 10:47 PM
Until he dies he will have a place with the Simons because he has built the franchise up to where the value of the club is so high the Simons can borrow against it for as long as they want.

But if we actually are going to start over, maybe we should start over totally fresh.

Eh, I'm fairly certain next year will be Walsh's last, when his contract expires.

Unclebuck
01-23-2006, 11:59 PM
If DW quit tomorrow, sat out the rest of the season and then announced in late April he wanted to be a GM again, 15-20 teams would go after him hard. That is how well respected he is.

Jermaniac
01-24-2006, 12:05 AM
Yeah all that respect and no championships.

Unclebuck
01-24-2006, 12:11 AM
Yeah all that respect and no championships.



How many current GM's have won championships.

sixthman
01-24-2006, 12:16 AM
We'll see what DW does with the Artest trade before passing judgement.

Pacesetter
01-24-2006, 12:46 AM
It's ok to critique Donnie. I've watched him for several years now, and he's done so many good things, but the one thing I really admire him for is his ability to touch the lives of his players. He's always tried to do the best he could at helping them transition into professional ball, while maintaining a mutual respect as CEO, GM, and player. I think LB has alot to fill when Donnie steps aside, and so while you may be upset with the temporary situation our guys are in, you should probably check yourself when you think of wanting one of the bests GM's in the game to step aside.

Donnie is the Pacer's greatest all star, and I personally think the world of him, for many reasons and most of them not necessarily all about his work as GM. He's one of my favorite people!

Harmonica
01-24-2006, 12:55 AM
If DW quit tomorrow, sat out the rest of the season and then announced in late April he wanted to be a GM again, 15-20 teams would go after him hard.

And pay him twice as much as he's making now.

Arcadian
01-24-2006, 01:16 AM
Ouch. Am I that bad?

I like Cro, and always have. I've said on multiple occasions that he was still capable of earning his contract (which almost nobody else will say). I just think his problems in 2001-2004 were his problems, not Zeke's.

Who said it was bad? You've been that consistant but you are right it is usually when the Zeke Cro dynamic is brought up.

On the topic if winning a championship is the mark of a great GM was Jerry Kruase a great GM?