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Peck
01-22-2006, 05:20 PM
Ok, I've been wondering this for some time now & I want to know everybodys thoughts on this.

It's a simple question actually but I bet the answers very wildly.

When did the foundation of this team begin to crumble?

I'll throw out some ideas just to get you guys started but I know there will be many more ideas about this.

BTW, I'm not talking about when did we start losing, that's kind of obvious. But when do you think that the cracks were created.

Here are some topics for thought/discussion.

1. Reggie Miller retires.

2. Al Harrington for Stephen Jackson

3. Brad Miller for Scot Pollard

4. J.O. signs Max contract

5. Donnie Walsh saw Marcus Camby in the 99 playoffs & became convinced that athleticism was more important than skill

6. Isiah Thomas was hired

7. Isiah Thomas was fired

8. Larry Bird was brought in to allow Donnie to retire

9. The brawl

10. Jalen Rose, Travis Best & Norm Richardson for Brad Miller, Ron Artest, Ron Mercer & Kevin Ollie


Oh there are more, but I want to know when you thought it was. BTW you can choose more than one but please tell us how the combination impacted (thanks Jay) the team.

GetOdom
01-22-2006, 05:22 PM
When Reggie retired.

hoopsforlife
01-22-2006, 05:26 PM
I think it was the year when Mark Jackson left. Antonio Davis was traded and DD moved west. Rick Smits retired. All this stuff happened and then they hired Isiah Thomas. That was the beginning of this fiasco we have now.

Lord Helmet
01-22-2006, 05:29 PM
I really don't know, but I'd have to say it was along the lines of the Brawl and Reggie retiring.

DG-33
01-22-2006, 05:29 PM
11/19/04

Hicks
01-22-2006, 05:34 PM
I don't this team ever had a solid foundation. The only time it looked to be cement drying was the end of the 2002 season. Then we got 2003, where the cracks started to really show. Then we got Rick, who in a way sealed the cracks as much as he could, but even then old problems resurfaced (mostly behind the scenes) to keep some cracks alive. Then we had the brawl, which created a pot-hole sized piece of damage. Now we have this season, which dropped a wrecking ball in the middle of the foundation, creating a crater.

Will Galen
01-22-2006, 05:35 PM
The drafting of Tinsley and Isiah giving him the reins to the team.

Tinsley is always injured, has a questionable attitude, and sometimes for no apparent reason has his own agenda. All of these from your starting point guard are bad for cohesiveness.

During Tinsleys rookie season I remarked that when Reggie came off a screen Tinsley held the ball to long before passing it to him. Mark Jackson hit Reg with a pass as soon as he cleared. Since Tinsley is a very good passer I thought he was doing it on purpose, but no one even remarked on my post.

I think Andre Miller, or someone comparable might be what this team needs.

Suaveness
01-22-2006, 05:37 PM
I agree, this team was never really cohesive. Even the 61 win team did not have the togetherness that Detroit had.

The problem with this team is that they have WAY too many role players. I mean, it's great we can win with people out. The problem is, we can't win with those people in. We are just a team with a bunch of slightly above average players, but no real star (other than Jermaine). Trade 3 or 4 for a star.

GetOdom
01-22-2006, 05:38 PM
I still puke when i think about the Brad Miller trade...

Brad Miller for Pollard? :unimpress

BlueNGold
01-22-2006, 06:06 PM
Losing Reggie and Mike Brown combined with the Ron Artest fiasco.

Losing Reggie and Mike Brown at the same time with such an immature team has had a huge impact. It is like Daddy has left the house and the kids have gone nuts. Reggie and Mike were the two "glue guys" between Rick and the players. I am afraid without that glue and with the trade talk, the players are not too excited about playing for Rick.

...and of course Reggie is obviously an incredibly deadly 3pt shooter, so that has crushed the team as well.

BillS
01-22-2006, 06:20 PM
I actually have a different take on this.

I think we could have survived a lot of things if we hadn't ended up with the players being expected to carry the team spending so much time injured.

If Bender doesn't turn out to be so fragile, if JO hadn't burned out his body playing summers, if Tinsley and even Brad turn out not to be hurt in postseason, we might be in a completely different place right now.

I know that isn't something that can necessarily be blamed on anyone and in many ways was not preventable (JT in better shape his first season? JO taking care of himself?), but I think the foundation was built on players who often weren't physically able to carry it.

Where we are now, even with the whole Artest situation, is aggravated due to the injuries and uncertainty.

aceace
01-22-2006, 06:34 PM
We were 7-2 and had a commanding lead with 40 some seconds to go in the 4th we had completely outplayed the defending champs and thennnnnnnn..... #9 on your list. Never in the history of pro-sports has one player done so much to destroy a franchise as Ron Artest. It has reached a point of complete frustration for me.

Arcadian
01-22-2006, 06:45 PM
I pretty much blame keeping Ron for our franchise's state. He should have been shipped out two summers ago.

able
01-22-2006, 06:46 PM
I think the biggest mistake was the one that set a cahin reaction into action;

Letting Brad go and keeping Ron (and I think Ron is a bigger talent, way bigger) was the initial spark that set it all in motion.

Because Ron was retained there was no longer room for Al, so after Brad (JO's pal) his best friend Al was also traded, in return we got Polly, a great charachter, but injured, and Jax, a great pal for Ron, next Ron got involved in the brawl, with a lot of help from Jax and JO got involved as well as AJ and mr Dustpan, heck even Big Boy the rook and for one reason or another I still have the feeling that JO is none to grateful to Jax for swinging his fist in the crowd.

This year was hard to start, no changes were made, but most likely anticipated (we are going to try to get under the cap) Saras was brought in, which would bring a form of unrest under the PG's on the team, Granger was our yearly lottery pick draft and the race started.
Saras decided that he was to be the leader of this team, which most likely did not go down to well with the rest of the team, so he saw few balls in the beginning, and at the near end of this charade Ron decided it was best if the team got rid of him, as they were talking about that already anyway.

Now, 5 weeks later, the unrest under the players enhanced by all the trade rumours and no end in sight, the team leader injured, the floor general injured (I remember how Tins pulled the team through those first games after the brawl, with Reggie still injured) and his backups failing the team is in shambles.

3Ball
01-22-2006, 07:01 PM
When we lost to the Lakers in overtime in the 2000 finals with Shaq out.

Bball
01-22-2006, 07:04 PM
5. Donnie Walsh saw Marcus Camby in the 99 playoffs & became convinced that athleticism was more important than skill

SoupIsGood
01-22-2006, 07:27 PM
Remaining so loyal to Ron has turned out to be the cause for a lot of this mess. So, whenever Donnie began to see Ron as a fixture on this team is when we started to fall apart.

Keeping Ron over Al.


Overall, bringing in too many inconsistent players. It just kills us, because we don't know what we can count on, night in and night out. Jax and Tins fall under this. Jax is streaky, and Tinsley is injured off and on.

The foundation fell apart when we decided to depend upon undependable players.

abington
01-22-2006, 07:44 PM
losing Reggie

Fireball Kid
01-22-2006, 07:46 PM
Drafting Tinsley. Trading Al for Stephen Jacko. Mike Brown leaving. I mean geez, the list goes on and on.

Reggie's retirement wasn't that much of an impact because even he couldnt fix this debacal........this Pandora's Box..........this anarchy..........this "I don't know whats going on with the Pacers" team.

Bball
01-22-2006, 07:50 PM
5. Donnie Walsh saw Marcus Camby in the 99 playoffs & became convinced that athleticism was more important than skill

I feel I should explain that a bit. I think many of the other options you listed have their root right here in number 5.

We went away from solid, grounded players playing in position. We built an unbalanced team.

The brawl is an easy answer BUT if the team wasn't so fragile mentally then the brawl wouldn't have been nearly as big of a deal... if it happened at all.

Carlisle is a great coach... except when he isn't. That's never more true when given this collection of overhyped, mentally weak, mismatched players. We have hitched our wagon to a power forward who has no power in his game. He's a lazy player (thanks UB!) who doesn't do the little things on any kind of consistent basis and is questionable at best on staying focused to do the big things. Tinsley is all about himself. Sjax is Sjax.

Meanwhile, we seem to have a front office on different agendas... not a hierarchy that is cohesive team. Bird talks of wanting the Pacers to play more of a Euro style of ball. He talks of wanting players like Artest be allowed some freedom on the court. He goes out and gets a FOURTH PG yet we don't do anything with our other guards. He talks of keeping JJ yet we don't even try and do a sign and trade netting us next to nothing.


You know what? When we talk of chemistry problems I think it goes all the way to the top. You cannot tell me Carlisle, Bird and Walsh are even on the same page. It doesn't add up. It's no wonder we have a mess. It really isn't. I don't know why I didn't think about that sooner. It's not just an over-reliance on patience and waiting on things to explode in our faces before making a move... It's not an overall franchise goal of just fielding a playoff team (and never risking that for a contender). It's about not even being on the same page at the top of the hierarchy.

It's at least a 3 headed monster...

It's time Walsh steps aside. Bird couldn't mess this up on his own any worse that he and Walsh together are doing it. Maybe if we can get a single focus in the front office, we can start getting a single focus on the court.

-Bball

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 07:59 PM
Well to answer this question you have to first ask yourself if the foundation was stable when the team won 61 games. That was an excellent team, but even I would have said that that teams success was a bit tenuous. The core of the team, AL, J.O , Ron and Tinsley were all a little unstable.

But 61 wins is 61 wins, and if anyone thinks that was paded because the east was down or any other bogus reason you are crazy. Winning 61 games is incredibly hard to do.

So the downfall of this franchise really started with the brawl and the subsequent aftermath. After that things could not be put back together.

Bball
01-22-2006, 08:07 PM
So the downfall of this franchise really started with the brawl and the subsequent aftermath. After that things could not be put back together.

...because it was built on a shaky foundation. We're probably splitting hairs tho. It would've been hard for any team to put that back together, but one on shaky ground like we were was just asking for trouble. ANYTHING could've brought the house down... certainly 11/19 should be no surprise it did. And we weren't helped at all by the front office.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
01-22-2006, 08:12 PM
...because it was built on a shaky foundation. We're probably splitting hairs tho. It would've been hard for any team to put that back together, but one on shaky ground like we were was just asking for trouble. ANYTHING could've brought the house down... certainly 11/19 should be no surprise it did. And we weren't helped at all by the front office.

-Bball

A team with a solid foundation would never of had something like the brawl happen to them. So, I don't see how we could say the problems started there.... :(

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 08:15 PM
...because it was built on a shaky foundation. We're probably splitting hairs tho. It would've been hard for any team to put that back together, but one on shaky ground like we were was just asking for trouble. ANYTHING could've brought the house down... certainly 11/19 should be no surprise it did. And we weren't helped at all by the front office.

-Bball



Yes I said it was a shaky foundation. But a lot of teams are built on a shaky foundation. I thought I said this in my prior post

Peck
01-22-2006, 08:18 PM
Well to answer this question you have to first ask yourself if the foundation was stable when the team won 61 games. That was an excellent team, but even I would have said that that teams success was a bit tenuous. The core of the team, AL, J.O , Ron and Tinsley were all a little unstable.

But 61 wins is 61 wins, and if anyone thinks that was paded because the east was down or any other bogus reason you are crazy. Winning 61 games is incredibly hard to do.

So the downfall of this franchise really started with the brawl and the subsequent aftermath. After that things could not be put back together.


We'll forgoe our usual battle over the 61 win thing for a moment & focus on why you think that the brawl was the key & not other issues.

Why couldn't it have been put back together if it was fine to begin with?

In all honesty if things were fine, shouldn't the team have actually been better this season because they were all united by "one goal" & that was to win a title & stick it to Stern?

Are you saying then that other players got a taste of playing more than just at garbage time & Jamaal decided that since he had to score during that time frame he would like to continue this trend?

I'm not sure what you mean I guess.

Is it philisophical or is it more rooted in style of play that you are referring to?

Bball
01-22-2006, 08:23 PM
Yes I said it was a shaky foundation. But a lot of teams are built on a shaky foundation. I thought I said this in my prior post

You did... I was underscoring the point as to why I thought the problem ultimately went further back.

-Bball

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 08:29 PM
Peck, I never said things were fine. here is what I said, That was an excellent team, but even I would have said that that teams success was a bit tenuous. The core of the team, AL, J.O , Ron and Tinsley were all a little unstable.

I think that speaks for itself.

I should mention that Ron wanting to retire or take time off or whatever he wanted and that aftermath didn't help things

Pistoner
01-22-2006, 08:29 PM
I think the house of cards started to fall after Artest lost his composure in the ECF against the Pistons (reacting to Hamilton). His behavior that whole series (jacking up bad shots, migrane-gate, late tech) should have sealed his fate to be traded in the offseason. Instead you get rid of Harrington. The simple fact that Harrington is friends with O'neal would probably have helped the team chemistry. Instead they kept O'neal's arch enemy.

Just an outsider's opinion.

indygeezer
01-22-2006, 09:01 PM
If anyone mentions that 61 wins again I will reach out and smack them thru the monitor. We just had a football team go 13/17ths of their season undefeated and what does that prove....diddly poo that's what. 61 wins was an illusion (just like clouds) forgetabodit!

Not knowing all that was going on behind the scenes prior to 11/19, I blame two people: Primarily Ron for 11/19. From that point on his teammates have had to look over their shoulder and watch what he was doing every minute. I said then that going into this season his teammates would never be able to trust him because he had shown that for him no game was ever so secured, no lead ever big enough, or any game so assured that Ron couldn't lose it. Before it was always the heat of the battle and frustration with losing....that farce of an excuse was exposed fully with the brawl. So again, going into this season you had undercurrent of resentment for what he had cost them last year and the fear of what he might do this year.
Secondly I blame Stern for being so damn harsh with Ron. By not allowing him back he didn't allow us the opportunity to show that Ron could still play w/o causing harm. We were forced to hold damaged goods beyond the trade deadline and into the off-season. By then nobody had a clear idea of what Ron was worth and we again were forced to hold him longer (Make no mistake, we've been trying for at least 2 years to trade Ron). Everytime Ron's value started picking up he'd do something to screw it up again and TPTB would have to restart the clock. ALso by being so severe it made Ron a quasi folk hero and his posse told him how mistreated he was.

Then came this season...nobody and I mean nobody could buy a free-throw and the boo-birds came out, then Jackson shot off his mouth and Ron took it all as personal attack.

So I gues for me it comes down to Ron, Der Fuhrer, and Knucklehead II.

Harmonica
01-22-2006, 09:13 PM
Well to answer this question you have to first ask yourself if the foundation was stable when the team won 61 games. That was an excellent team, but even I would have said that that teams success was a bit tenuous. The core of the team, AL, J.O , Ron and Tinsley were all a little unstable.

But 61 wins is 61 wins, and if anyone thinks that was paded because the east was down or any other bogus reason you are crazy. Winning 61 games is incredibly hard to do.

So the downfall of this franchise really started with the brawl and the subsequent aftermath. After that things could not be put back together.

That makes too much sense. The question of "When did the foundation of this team begin to crumble?" is best debated by those who dwell in the past.

grace
01-22-2006, 09:32 PM
I think it was the year when Mark Jackson left. Antonio Davis was traded and DD moved west. Rick Smits retired. All this stuff happened and then they hired Isiah Thomas. That was the beginning of this fiasco we have now.

:iagree:, but I'd phrase it this way: The team began to crumble when Larry quit coaching. Now that Larry spends all his time in Europe instead of here dealing with the malcontents the team is emploding.

Slick Pinkham
01-22-2006, 09:37 PM
I think the turning point was losing to the Pistons in the ECF in 2004, after 61 wins and a #1 seed. Ron played pretty poorly, our offense has 3 games in the 60's, and Rip Hamilton killed us.

There were two possibilities-- the loss could motivate us or demoralize us.

7 games ino next season Ron went nuts and the second blow (the brawl) coincided with the third (injuries) and resulted in a knockout.

The first blow staggered us though, and I say the playoff loss was the beginning of the end, because we had to doubt whether we were talented enough to win it all.

Hicks
01-22-2006, 09:40 PM
Those who "dwell in the past" are smart because the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Learning how we got here is a step toward learning how to prevent getting here again.

Bball
01-22-2006, 09:41 PM
I'm surprised I could mention that it could be time for Walsh to step down and I haven't had one death threat (yet) or even a "You're crazy... I nominate this for most stupid post of the year" (yet).

I wasn't joking when I made that statement.

-Bball

Peck
01-22-2006, 09:42 PM
Peck, I never said things were fine. here is what I said, That was an excellent team, but even I would have said that that teams success was a bit tenuous. The core of the team, AL, J.O , Ron and Tinsley were all a little unstable.

I think that speaks for itself.

I should mention that Ron wanting to retire or take time off or whatever he wanted and that aftermath didn't help things


Fair enough.

But that still begs the question, why was Sterns punishment such a death blow to that team?

Bball
01-22-2006, 09:43 PM
Those who "dwell in the past" are smart because the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Learning how we got here is a step toward learning how to prevent getting here again.

It's also a good way to know we're fixing what's broken... not what's "not broken".

-Bball

Harmonica
01-22-2006, 09:53 PM
Those who "dwell in the past" are smart because the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Learning how we got here is a step toward learning how to prevent getting here again.

Thinking about a career as an investment banker?

Hicks
01-22-2006, 09:58 PM
Thinking about a career as an investment banker?

I was thinking more of my psychology classes. Or my history classes.

NorCal_Pacerfan
01-22-2006, 10:14 PM
Losing Reggie = deflates the status of the Pacers.

Tinsley over the last two years = injured, injured - and up and down like a wacky roller coaster - just not consistant.

Ron Artest = Waste of salary money and brought this team down two years in a row.

Bender = Waste of salary money.

On the plus side, we have 3 promising players in Runi, Danger and Harrison.

abington
01-22-2006, 10:25 PM
I'd like to nominate two other ideas for consideration that no one has mentioned.

1. Signing Jalen to a long term max style contract.
2. Signing Austin to a long term almost max style contract.

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 11:27 PM
Fair enough.

But that still begs the question, why was Sterns punishment such a death blow to that team?


It created a situation where if Ron did anything wrong after that his teammates would turn on him without giving it a second thought. 11/19 cost his teammates a ton of money and that brings a whole different tone to things. Don't you think J.O's family and friends and Jax's family and friends were reminding them what Artest caused them to do and the money they lost. Am not explaining myself very well here, but 11/19 did not bring the team closer together, it split them apart.

Slick Pinkham
01-22-2006, 11:48 PM
I think that they were already a little sour on Ron before that, and it was obvious in the '04 Detroit ECF series that Ron would do his own thing whenever he felt like it, even if it hurt the chances of going to the NBA finals.

Didn't Ron have some tardiness issues in that postseason?

For every incident we hear about I'm sure there are 10 others we know nothing about. Like cockroaches.

twscholl
01-23-2006, 12:05 AM
I'm surprised I could mention that it could be time for Walsh to step down and I haven't had one death threat (yet) or even a "You're crazy... I nominate this for most stupid post of the year" (yet).

I wasn't joking when I made that statement.

-Bball

OK, Bball, I'll jump on this one. I've lurked here long enough recently. (By the way, thanks to Peck for this topic--it is the kind of discussion I really like to see.) While I don't think this is the dumbest post of the year, I do think blaming Donnie for the failure of this team is wrong.

On a completely optimistic note, I don't think we can define success solely by a championship banner in Conseco Fieldhouse. A professional championship is a gruelling process that takes time and focus. The Pacers are a young team. They have a lot to learn yet. The problem is that they seem to expect the rest of the league to let them pass because of their perceived value/talent. Remember that Detroit suffered a number of years before finding the right combination. (And for crying out loud, who ever would have guessed that Sheed was the missing piece in that team?!?)

For me, the answer to Peck's question is the decision to rebuild after the Finals vs. the Lakers. BUT, I do not disagree with the decision. Six years out, we have a young team struggling to decide who they are. I'm not sure that is a reason to chuck the roster and start again.

Pessimistically (which is more my style), I think the players have changed. I must admit to feeling frustration for Larry and Donnie. These players act like kids. (J.O doesn't like Knucklehead (thanks UB), SUCK IT UP! You're a #@%^$ professional! I don't like all the people I work with either.) The problem is they are too young and they are not getting any more mature. I foget the source, but I like the comment about Mike Brown and Reggie being the glue. It's a question I always have (and had) about this team A.R. (After Reggie). Who is the leader? We all know that Knucklehead doesn't "need" a leader -- which is why his little behind is riding pine right now. (Thank You Larry and Rick for sitting this punk). Sadly, I think J.O. will always be a follower. He plays his best when he has someone to look up to.

Sorry, this is becomming a rant. To summarize, I like what Larry, Donnie and especially Rick are doing. It's going to take more time and more maturity. This has been a successful franchise -- just not a championship franchise. They will get there. What we need to do is get rid of Ron and find leadership. Who's gonna step up?

TWS

Mr.ThunderMakeR
01-23-2006, 12:06 AM
None of the above:

Id say it started in the playoffs after the 61 win season. I think the players went in way too overconfident and just assumed that they were gonna be the champions since they had the best record. Then when they were faced with some real competition in playoff basketball, they cracked under the pressure, tempers flaired etc. If you remember Ron was pretty much in perfect behaviour during that whole season and everyone thought he was a changed man, but in that Pistons series he reverted to his old nutjob ways and after that it was pure downhill. The next season, he was still creating problems leading all the way up to the brawl (record promoting etc) and by 11/19 and after that the foundation was obliterated.

All the stuff before that like the Mark Jackson and DD trades, Smits retiring, was pretty much the end of the previous Pacers era, so I wouldnt say that was the cause of the 'foundation' of this current team crumbling. The Isiah Thomas period to me was just a transition period between the two eras.

Btw, I say this current team is part of an 'era' because I still believe this team has potential to be champions depending on what happens in this trade. Like someone mentioned, we are depending on one star right now and the formula for a contender has for awhile been 2 stars surrounded by good roleplayers. Look at the last few championship teams: Duncan and Parker/Robinson, Shaq and Kobe, Jordan and Pippen, Olajuwon and Drexler. The obvious exception is the Pistons, but they use a unique formula for building a team that I dont think anyone will try to duplicate for awhile.

brichard
01-23-2006, 12:07 AM
Well did LA have a great "foundation" with egos like Shaq and Kobe? Let's face it, some of the greatest rock bands of all time have feuds and so do some of the best teams. The teams that survive in spite of this seeming lack of harmony win championships while those that don't implode.

We could guess from now until eternity what caused things to go South, but they just did. Some were controllable (keeping Miller instead of Artest,) and some were not (excessive injuries and suspensions.)

I really don't care why it happened anymore. I just hope they get it fixed as soon as possible.

McKeyFan
01-23-2006, 12:10 AM
I would say that the 61 win team had a solid foundation, just not a good enough foundation to win a championship.

Al Harrington, as much as I loved his attitude and heart, did not have the offensive game we needed to go the next level. I thought it was the right move to trade him.

So . . . TPTB broke the foundation themselves (sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better) but the risk didn't pay off for two reasons:

1. We got Stephen Jackson for Harrington. Enough said.

2. We did not trade Artest, who clearly was a problem child. (I have been one of the biggest Artest fans, but subsequent info and developments have persuaded me that TPTB erred in not trading Ron earlier.)


All in all, I wonder if they didn't go far enough. Yes, I'm convinced that 61 win team needed an overhaul to get to the next level. However, today I am convinced that the overhaul should have included Tinsley and perhaps JO--at least it should include making the JO the number two option behind someone brought in with a better shooting percentage.

grace
01-23-2006, 12:29 AM
11/19 did not bring the team closer together, it split them apart.

I don't know if I agree with that. Maybe it was all just lip service, but last year after the brawl it was "us against the world." This year when training camp started it was "United, One Goal." Sure it wasn't all smooth sailing as the season started. I think that things could have been worked out until Ron went stupid again and publicly asked for a trade. I think JO looks at it like "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me eight times, it's me or you." I can't say that I blame him. As for Jax he's the head case I always feared he was. And the new guy, well he's the new guy.

I have a question. Before the season started a lot of people were saying this was going to be our year. Well, other than Ron asking to be traded and a rash of injuries that seem to happen every year, how is the fact that we're failing Donnie's fault?

Sirius
01-23-2006, 12:54 AM
I'm going to go with the combination of the Brawl and Reggie retiring. The team had enough unstable elements already, and losing the face of the franchise who did NOTHING but help our team for so long, as well as being involved in one of the more egregious sporting incidents in recent history really took a toll on our already fragile "homeostasis". I dont know if we can come back from this mess without rebuilding, but I say give it a shot by shipping tinsley, putting a true leader/teammate on the floor (Sarunas), and getting something DECENT for Ron.

Arcadian
01-23-2006, 02:22 AM
After further thought I will say the downfall came when we went with keeping Ron over Al. I know that Al isn't popular here and that Al isn't as talented, but Al wouldn't have found himself laying on a score table either.

Los Angeles
01-23-2006, 03:22 AM
None of the above:

Id say it started in the playoffs after the 61 win season. I think the players went in way too overconfident and just assumed that they were gonna be the champions since they had the best record. Then when they were faced with some real competition in playoff basketball, they cracked under the pressure, tempers flaired etc. If you remember Ron was pretty much in perfect behaviour during that whole season and everyone thought he was a changed man, but in that Pistons series he reverted to his old nutjob ways and after that it was pure downhill. The next season, he was still creating problems leading all the way up to the brawl (record promoting etc) and by 11/19 and after that the foundation was obliterated.

All the stuff before that like the Mark Jackson and DD trades, Smits retiring, was pretty much the end of the previous Pacers era, so I wouldnt say that was the cause of the 'foundation' of this current team crumbling. The Isiah Thomas period to me was just a transition period between the two eras.

Btw, I say this current team is part of an 'era' because I still believe this team has potential to be champions depending on what happens in this trade. Like someone mentioned, we are depending on one star right now and the formula for a contender has for awhile been 2 stars surrounded by good roleplayers. Look at the last few championship teams: Duncan and Parker/Robinson, Shaq and Kobe, Jordan and Pippen, Olajuwon and Drexler. The obvious exception is the Pistons, but they use a unique formula for building a team that I dont think anyone will try to duplicate for awhile.
Great Post.

I also think that the foundation began to crack during the 2004 playoffs. And I also think that management set the bar too high in trying to fix the broken foundation.

Bball
01-23-2006, 03:32 AM
Great Post.

I also think that the foundation began to crack during the 2004 playoffs. And I also think that management set the bar too high in trying to fix the broken foundation.

Please elaborate. I'm not sure I follow your thinking.

-Bball

Los Angeles
01-23-2006, 04:28 AM
Please elaborate. I'm not sure I follow your thinking.

-Bball
Most of us here know that the summer of 2004 was spent trying to send Artest away. Artest for Peja was reported to be real. I've heard of other possible trades that didn't go through for one reason or another.

I think that Artest could have and should have been traded that summer regardless of "equal talent". Ron Artest made top 50 money. I'm certain that we could have gotten a number of top 50 guys for him. Instead, it's pretty clear TPTB wanted a top 10-20 guy for him, and that is the primary reason a deal - any deal - didn't get done. They set the bar too high. They should have settled for less.

A capable and durable player at any position would have been enough.

Bball
01-23-2006, 05:28 AM
Most of us here know that the summer of 2004 was spent trying to send Artest away. Artest for Peja was reported to be real. I've heard of other possible trades that didn't go through for one reason or another.

I think that Artest could have and should have been traded that summer regardless of "equal talent". Ron Artest made top 50 money. I'm certain that we could have gotten a number of top 50 guys for him. Instead, it's pretty clear TPTB wanted a top 10-20 guy for him, and that is the primary reason a deal - any deal - didn't get done. They set the bar too high. They should have settled for less.

A capable and durable player at any position would have been enough.

Aha! They set the bar too high in what they had to have for Artest. I get you now.

I thought you meant they set team goals too high or something along those lines.

:dunce:
-Bball

Gyron
01-23-2006, 05:17 PM
I was thinking more of my psychology classes. Or my history classes.

Isn't the old saying, those who forget the past are destined to repeat it?

Hicks
01-23-2006, 05:21 PM
Something like that, yeah.

BillS
01-23-2006, 05:23 PM
Isn't the old saying, those who forget the past are destined to repeat it?

It's actually, "Those who do not remember History are condemned to repeat it in summer school."

:zip:

Jon Theodore
01-23-2006, 05:25 PM
this thread is so dumb. Where is the all of the above option?

Unclebuck
01-23-2006, 05:25 PM
Peja is not too high. Not too high at all. Thankfully that trade did not go down. Peja is and was so overrated it isn't even funny.

Harmonica
01-23-2006, 05:32 PM
Isn't the old saying, those who forget the past are destined to repeat it?

I thought it was, fans who forget we overpaid for an injury-prone player are destined to want us to do it again. :zip:

Bball
01-23-2006, 07:13 PM
I thought it was, fans who forget we overpaid for an injury-prone player are destined to want us to do it again. :zip:

I thought it was:
Who has played more games between Brad Miller and Jonathon Bender or Ron Artest since the summer of 03? And I wonder where Foster and Pollard fit in there with percentages as well?

Oh well... 4 wrongs don't make a right... or is it 5?

-Bball

Harmonica
01-23-2006, 07:46 PM
I thought it was:
Who has played more games between Brad Miller and Jonathon Bender or Ron Artest since the summer of 03? And I wonder where Foster and Pollard fit in there with percentages as well?

Oh well... 4 wrongs don't make a right... or is it 5?

-Bball

Or was the quote, those who can do and those who can't talk about it on an internet message board.

Donnie will be leaving after next season. You should make a run for it.

McKeyFan
01-23-2006, 07:54 PM
Or was it: Many of those who can't --like the bottom half of the league's GM's--don't even try to learn more about their craft on an internet message board.

Bball
01-23-2006, 08:17 PM
Or was the quote, those who can do and those who can't talk about it on an internet message board.

Donnie will be leaving after next season. You should make a run for it.

I'm preparing my resume' as we 'speak'. I'm cleaning house. I'm going to see if the Colts can use me as well.

When Donnie leaves, does Larry go with him?

I'd be leaving too if I was Donnie... I think this thing is going to take a LOT of energy and work to right the ship. I don't see how he'd enjoy the challenge at this point (age). I guess I could be wrong... maybe he lives for the challenge. I just can't imagine him having the heart for it.

--

Those who can, do.... those who can't get longterm contracts from the Pacers ;) :-p

-Bball