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View Full Version : I smell a problem at the PG spot...



Evan_The_Dude
01-21-2006, 02:10 AM
AJ, Sarunas, and Tinsley (if he remains healthy) have to share minutes. Playing Sarunas at the 2 obviously isn't working. AJ is playing well. Tinsley is our best pg. They can't all stay... I think AJ has earned some trade value... or is Tinsley seeing his Pacers days coming to an end?

We all know Sarunas isn't going anywhere (right?). Does anybody else see thing possibly getting more interesting at that position?

Anthem
01-21-2006, 02:34 AM
AJ, Sarunas, and Tinsley (if he remains healthy) have to share minutes. Playing Sarunas at the 2 obviously isn't working. AJ is playing well. Tinsley is our best pg. They can't all stay... I think AJ has earned some trade value... or is Tinsley seeing his Pacers days coming to an end?

We all know Sarunas isn't going anywhere (right?). Does anybody else see thing possibly getting more interesting at that position?
Absolutely.

Unfortunately, all bets are off until the Ron trade is completed. If that's not until next season, then that's how long before the PG issue is settled.

But don't worry. It's only until Tinsley gets injured again.

Fireball Kid
01-21-2006, 02:46 AM
Saras should of went to Cleveland.

Harmonica
01-21-2006, 03:30 AM
Saras should of went to Cleveland.

A couple of things: 1.) Donnie and Larry aren't meddlers and are going to let Rick do his job without interference. That said, it has to be frustrating to Larry that he spent months in Europe following Saras, only to have Rick play him out of position. 2.) At the same time, how do you build a players' trade value? A part of me thinks that AJ will be on the block.

Bball
01-21-2006, 04:41 AM
2.) At the same time, how do you build a players' trade value?

You play him and showcase him... but Tinsley is so damned fragile that they can't do it...

Oh wait... you think they are showcasing AJ so that they can be left with the always injured Tinsley...

Hmmm....

-Bball

Bball
01-21-2006, 04:53 AM
AJ, Sarunas, and Tinsley (if he remains healthy) have to share minutes. Playing Sarunas at the 2 obviously isn't working. AJ is playing well. Tinsley is our best pg. They can't all stay... I think AJ has earned some trade value... or is Tinsley seeing his Pacers days coming to an end?

We all know Sarunas isn't going anywhere (right?). Does anybody else see thing possibly getting more interesting at that position?

Welcome to "halfway land" where we prod along, making halfway moves, and then refuse to complete the deal. There's no way Bird chased Saras all over the other side of the globe to get a 4th PG on this team.

And no, he didn't get him to be a SG either.

There had to be another move planned. But they were slow to the trigger. Was it AJ being shipped out? Was it Tinsley? Did they gamble Tinsley wouldn't get injured before they traded him? Did they ignore the obvious and think Tinsley would be healthy this year and they could trade AJ?

Was there an Artest plus PG package being shopped? A PG and and Artest screwed it up (when he moved to the front burner)? The problem with those scenarios is there was plenty of time to pull it off before Artest went Artest.

Did they go to all this trouble and expense to get Saras and then get cold feet about turning him loose?

Whatever the deal... I bet you 'patience' has played a factor in our having a mess at PG.

And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And [i]I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

-Bball

Harmonica
01-21-2006, 06:01 AM
We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

Truth.

Mourning
01-21-2006, 06:12 AM
Did they go to all this trouble and expense to get Saras and then get cold feet about turning him loose?

Whatever the deal... I bet you 'patience' has played a factor in our having a mess at PG.

And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

-Bball


Aggreed!

hoopsforlife
01-21-2006, 07:49 AM
[/QUOTE]And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

-Bball[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. Saras is not being given a fair chance to show what he can do. I really want to see what he has on a consistant basis without having to look over his shoulder all the time.

Its really getting me :pissed:

Mourning
01-21-2006, 07:55 AM
And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

-Bball[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. Saras is not being given a fair chance to show what he can do. I really want to see what he has on a consistant basis without having to look over his shoulder all the time.

Its really getting me :pissed:[/QUOTE]

Same here.

indygeezer
01-21-2006, 08:24 AM
Completely agree. I was sooo looking forward to seeing Saras run this team. But then again, is it ever possible for Rick to hand him the keys and say..."Go win"? IMO RC is waaaaaay too much of a micromanager to ever even attempt that.
Did I read somewhere that Saras has a player option after this year?

Hicks
01-21-2006, 09:40 AM
I think it goes without saying I agree with Harmonica, Bball, et al.

The idea of Sarunas at 2 is a nice theory, but what you end up with is him getting less touches, when he's at his best with the ball in his hands, you get him being guarded by a larger 2-guard, and he's a guy who mainly stays on the perimeter and would have to shoot over the guy, and he's left guarding a 6'5" or bigger guy on the other end, when he struggles with smaller PGs.

Mourning
01-21-2006, 09:44 AM
I think it goes without saying I agree with Harmonica, Bball, et al.

The idea of Sarunas at 2 is a nice theory, but what you end up with is him getting less touches, when he's at his best with the ball in his hands, you get him being guarded by a larger 2-guard, and he's a guy who mainly stays on the perimeter and would have to shoot over the guy, and he's left guarding a 6'5" or bigger guy on the other end, when he struggles with smaller PGs.

And gets attacked for "bad defense" consequently :rolleyes:.

Sure, he isn't a good defender at all, but rightnow this situation is making him look worse then he is.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

FrenchConnection
01-21-2006, 09:52 AM
And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

I think this is the correct way to go. Let him try to lead the team. If it works out, great. If not, back to the bench he goes. I think that it would work. He needs time to impact the game, and he is not getting enough of it.

Jerry_McGuire
01-21-2006, 09:52 AM
Welcome to "halfway land" where we prod along, making halfway moves, and then refuse to complete the deal. There's no way Bird chased Saras all over the other side of the globe to get a 4th PG on this team.

And no, he didn't get him to be a SG either.

There had to be another move planned. But they were slow to the trigger. Was it AJ being shipped out? Was it Tinsley? Did they gamble Tinsley wouldn't get injured before they traded him? Did they ignore the obvious and think Tinsley would be healthy this year and they could trade AJ?

Was there an Artest plus PG package being shopped? A PG and and Artest screwed it up (when he moved to the front burner)? The problem with those scenarios is there was plenty of time to pull it off before Artest went Artest.

Did they go to all this trouble and expense to get Saras and then get cold feet about turning him loose?

Whatever the deal... I bet you 'patience' has played a factor in our having a mess at PG.

And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And [I]I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

-Bball

Nice insight, man!
Respect

three months have already passed, and Saras didnt have a fair chance
to prove himself with position he's best at, coach's trust and attitude for
that, and reasonable rotation.

I said it once, and I will repeat myselft, that what can be seen clearly
now is some agonized team chemistry formula search right now. And this
search would probably continue until the end of the season, with below
average results. In given situation team coaches and management have a
very complex puzzle they have to figure out, with rotation, players and
attitude issues. Slight measures dont help in this situation.

How can Pacers coach require consistency, if the rotation itself is far off
to consistent. What they need - is to make strong decisions, and giving
the patience to themselves to see how this decision proves. You can't tell
decision was wrong or right if you change it on daily basis.


So here's what I imply concerning PG spot - give Saras a real chance,
and go to outcomes after that. If it requires roster change (trading Tins
and/or AJ - to another good PG) - make a strong decision and do that. If
it doesn't help - the team wont lose too much anyways. Pacers already
know what AJ and Tins can contribute or lead to... And buying Saras was
a move to improve that. So in any way - Pacers need something new
in PG spot right now! So I say - get some new PG player, and give Saras a
chance for the time.

Lithfan
01-22-2006, 05:54 AM
Finally some hoosiers are telling what us europeans being yelling all the time. Give the guy some credit and let him play for real. He already proved that you can try that: best +- on team, good stats for 20 min play, improved D.

#31
01-22-2006, 07:55 AM
Playing Sarunas at the 2 obviously isn't working.

I hate how people dont understand that you CANT have 3 players averaging 20 ppg! If u judge him by his PPG i mean, because its only there Sarunas has failed to proof himself on both Positions, even tho he can do it. Its physicaly impossible unless they all start and have that chemistry and share the ball only between them in at least 40 mpg! One example is if you watch the All-star games and Dream Team games... Those who averaged 20 - 30 ppg in NBA suddenly all average like 10 points a piece?

Even tho Saras is a Rookie, dont u think Sarunas can score 20 ppg? Dont u see that he is doing as Coach says and remains a 4th scoring option when he is in there with Jermaine and Jax etc.? Have u seen Sarunas numbers at the end of games? 4-6 FGs, 1-2 3PTs, 2-2 FTs... think now, what would happen if he would fire more shots? Yes, he would be the All-Star in this team and he would Decrease mister "all-star" Jermaines points to about 13 ppg and Jax points in average 10 ppg. Suddenly the best players in your team are "Bad"? No! Basketball is like that! Its coaches/tactics decision to choose your Scorers after the teams system... lets just call it finding a way to win! "the teori of winning or losing" :)

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 09:45 AM
At this point I just want a point guard who can play defense. Please

able
01-22-2006, 10:18 AM
I am getting tired quickly of this Saras nonsense, now he has to take more shots then JO to be the top scorer / topdog on this team?

Can we get real?

A: he can not get the ball upfield, he gets his pockets picked as soon as somedefender spends time on him,
B: he only gets his (few) shots of because he takes to few to warrant attention, once he gets the attention of the defense he will not get his shot of, see his starts at SG.
C: his defense is not nearly enough for NBA standards.

If someone of TPTB decides it's time to trade Tins then it will be for a PG with starting quality, sorry Saras is not that PG, a decent backup yes, perhaps even a good backup, but not starting material, and I know he's a rookie, but he's a 29 yr old experienced rookie at the physical peak of his ability, progress can be made in "team-defense" but not in ball handling skills, he's handled the ball for so many years

Mourning
01-22-2006, 10:49 AM
You do aggree that Sarunas when playing SG also has to face a different defender at that position? And usually a taller one at that, so taking a lot of shots when your PG is about the same height (so the opponents tallest guard, usually the SG, would defend Saruas), becomes very risky in my opinion (blocked shots), certainly when you take into account that Sarunas isn't the fastest player around.

I want him either starting or backing up at PG. I do not want to see him for extended periods of time at SG, let stand starting him there.

Rightnow, I would be fine with giving the first 4/5 minutes of the game to AJ at PG, then bring in Sarunas at PG and see how he does the rest of the quarter, let him be replaced by Tinsley, so he can slowly come back instead of increasing the risk of rushing him into a new injury with lots of minutes. Then bring in Sarunas again for Tins, unless he's totally off then bring in AJ.
But, I'm all for giving Sarunas a 30-38 minutes a game chance for atleast 3 games. We have to know what he can do in extended minutes.

Switch AJ to SG if the opposing backcourt isn't too tall, so he can back up Freddie there, while Stephen and Danny share the SF spot.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

able
01-22-2006, 11:23 AM
What makes you think that he can show more in 35 minutes that he can not show in 25 minutes? To me that is a completely bizar thought.

The "mistake" last night had nothing to do with Tins starting, even limpy he's the best of the lot we have, but with Jax at the 3, it simply does not work.
AJ at the 2 Jax at the 3 is asking for problems, we got them.

We are to thin atm at the 3, but starting Danny with Jax at the two is a better way (IMO) you then have 3 good and 2 decent defenders on the floor and all positions can score.

It also leaves a better rotation as we've seen in earlier games. (Saras for Tins, Fred, AJ, Cro, Foster, in another given order depending on matchups/fouls etc.)

NPFII
01-22-2006, 12:32 PM
What makes you think that he can show more in 35 minutes that he can not show in 25 minutes? To me that is a completely bizar thought.

It's not the amount of minutes, it's the quality.

When you come in the end of the 1st Q and play with the 2nd unit till the midway of the 2nd Q, and the same for the 3rd & 4th Q, you're playing the "fillers" game.
No chemistry, no unity, no leadership, no pressure. Sure - it's minutes, but it's the "less important" minutes. All that said, still Saras plays them with passion and out of position.

When you start games and finish them you have responsibility, leadership issues, pressure. Those are quality minutes, and those are the essence of playing basketball at the top level. It's also the best players playing, so if you're a guy like Saras who makes his teammates better - those are the minutes he should play and that's where he can affect the game MORE. Add to that his thriving-under-pressure quality and that's your answer.

Bottom line - you haven't seen Saras play yet. Start him at PG for 10 games. Let him have the reigns, and after that say if you like it or not. That's what you brought him here for, isn't it? I'm truly disappointed in Carlisle for not doing this when Tinsley was hurt. It was an opportunity that he missed, and I can't understand why.

I hope that everyone on the Pacers organization has realized this and AJ and Tinsley are just being showcased for the Artest trade (AJ for skill, Tinsley for durability). I don't want to think that Carlisle has given up on Saras like some of the people here have.

Kstat
01-22-2006, 12:36 PM
Saras definately did not make a good case for himself last night.

Carlisle does not start people who can't play defense unless he has to.

Saras was getting beat repeatedly off the dribble by Chicago's guards. That's why he wasn't able to play longer.

That's not to say that Saras has a good game offensively (which he didn't) but defense comes first. If he didnt want to play defense, he shouldnt have signed to play under Rick Carlisle.

SoupIsGood
01-22-2006, 12:43 PM
At this point I just want a point guard who can play defense. Please

Antonio Daniels isn't doing so hotin Washington....

Mourning
01-22-2006, 12:46 PM
Antonio Daniels isn't doing so hotin Washington....

Funny! That was exactly what I was thinking a few weeks ago too :).

Jermaniac
01-22-2006, 01:10 PM
At this point I just want a point guard who can play defense. PleaseThen why did you want Sarunas to start? He is the worst defensive PG on our roster. Probably worst defensive player period.

Arcadian
01-22-2006, 01:33 PM
These are the threads that make me apperciate Kegboy.

Pacesetter
01-22-2006, 01:39 PM
If you measure a PG by the amount of impact overall, JT would sit, and Sarunas would start. JT is starting to remind me alot of Derrick McKey. He's a great ball player WHEN he's there. The season is 82 games, and JT has been averaging 61 games a season since coming here. We need a guy who can go 82 games a season. The injuries to the players may not be their fault but sometimes I wonder if it's due to a lack of training in the off season, and also how much work they really put into being great. I like JT, he's one of my favorite players but he just doesn't put in the effort to become great. For example, his rookie year he was compared to Tony Parker because they were both rookies. He stayed close with TP, but if you compare them two now, it's TP by a landslide.

Sarunas should start at PG and stay at PG! JMO.

Jermaniac
01-22-2006, 01:43 PM
Saras definately did not make a good case for himself last night.

Carlisle does not start people who can't play defense unless he has to.

Saras was getting beat repeatedly off the dribble by Chicago's guards. That's why he wasn't able to play longer.

That's not to say that Saras has a good game offensively (which he didn't) but defense comes first. If he didnt want to play defense, he shouldnt have signed to play under Rick Carlisle.I wonder if he really did his homework on our team before coming here. I for one dont think he did. I dont know what made him chose us over the Cavs, he would have probably started and been playing with his best friend, Cavs dont play no defense anyway so there he goes.

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 02:11 PM
Welcome to "halfway land" where we prod along, making halfway moves, and then refuse to complete the deal. There's no way Bird chased Saras all over the other side of the globe to get a 4th PG on this team.

And no, he didn't get him to be a SG either.

There had to be another move planned. But they were slow to the trigger. Was it AJ being shipped out? Was it Tinsley? Did they gamble Tinsley wouldn't get injured before they traded him? Did they ignore the obvious and think Tinsley would be healthy this year and they could trade AJ?

Was there an Artest plus PG package being shopped? A PG and and Artest screwed it up (when he moved to the front burner)? The problem with those scenarios is there was plenty of time to pull it off before Artest went Artest.

Did they go to all this trouble and expense to get Saras and then get cold feet about turning him loose?

Whatever the deal... I bet you 'patience' has played a factor in our having a mess at PG.

And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And [i]I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

-Bball

I think most agree that Saras' best role is as the starting point guard, where his leadership and overall knowledge of the game would be best utilized and I was one of the first proponents of starting Saras, but after 39 games, I wonder if Saras is good enough. I have my doubts about that.

I don't think his current teammates are ready to follow him, I don't think his defense is nearly good enough, I don't think his ability to beat defensive pressure is good enough, and I just don't think he is a good enough player. But we know what AJ can do, and we know that Tinsley gets injured too often, so we might as well try Saras. But I think half the players would revolt, it would get ugly. When I'm hat the game in person, I see his teammates not appreciating Saras "leadership" attempts.

The point guard spot is a major problem and it needs to be solved before this team can move forward.

I had a real problem with the way Tinsley played last night. Does he think he's Allen Iverson now. He was dominating the ball, trying to score in post against defenders that he was not able to score on. He did not move the ball. The offense is so different when Jamaal is in the game vs Saras or AJ. The Pacers play completely differently on the offensive end. Less ball movement and less player movement

rexnom
01-22-2006, 02:14 PM
I think most agree that Saras' best role is as the starting point guard, whree his leadership and overall knowledge of the game would be best utilized and I was one of the first proponents of starting Saras, but after 39 games, I wonder if Saras is good enough. I have my doubts about that.

I don't think his current teammates are ready to follow him, I don't think his defense is nearly good enough, I don't think his ability to beat defensive pressure is good enough, and I just don't think he is a good enough player. But we know what AJ can do, and we know that Tinsley gets injured too often, so we might as well try Saras. But I think half the players would revolt, it would get ugly. When I'm hat the game in person, I see his teammates not appreciating Saras "leadership" attempts.

The point guard spot is a major problem and it needs to be solved before this team can move forward.

I agree with your leadership assesment here. Don't you think it's weird that these players would be expected to fall behind an international rookie who didn't struggle through the brawl days and wasn't part of the Reggie days?

able
01-22-2006, 02:31 PM
UB UB UB at times, only at times, ..........

Anyway, of course this "leadership" thing is a problem, no way that these "vets" are gonna accept a rookie with NO proven NBA track record, who can not get out of pressure, does not have the handles and has no defense whatsoever, as their "leader".
Or as rick so apt put it on his last show; "Leader? this team has a leader and floor leaders, and does not need that from Saras, he should concentrate on his play, defense and offense and then maybe in time he can become one of the leaders"

I think that said it all, or as Jay called it "his bossiness" is not appreciated, certainly from someone who has proven nothing at this level, and is proving very little from game to game to assert himself further.

I am simply amazed you are ready to give the reigns on this team to him, I can understand you wanting to trade Tins, but at least get a starting PG back.

P.S. perhaps that better ball movement comes from the fact that he is not the "general" out there, he just initiates and prays for the ball to come back.

Bball
01-22-2006, 02:37 PM
I think most agree that Saras' best role is as the starting point guard, where his leadership and overall knowledge of the game would be best utilized and I was one of the first proponents of starting Saras, but after 39 games, I wonder if Saras is good enough. I have my doubts about that.

I don't think his current teammates are ready to follow him, I don't think his defense is nearly good enough, I don't think his ability to beat defensive pressure is good enough, and I just don't think he is a good enough player.

The point guard spot is a major problem and it needs to be solved before this team can move forward.



The thing with Saras is that he needs the backing of the coach and he needs to be handed the keys. If the coach keeps jerking him around, playing him different spots, different minutes, etc. then he's never going to get the chance to prove himself to anyone nor will the players see him as someone they have to take seriously.

It could very well be he doesn't have 'it'. ...But I'd like to give him the chance. Winners win. He came here with the reputation of a winner.... Of being 'clutch'. I'm not sure what we have to lose. I know what we have to gain. I'm willing to trade some defensive lapses for some leadership and better offense. I also would think the lapses would lessen with experience and the offense would get even better.

OTOH, maybe throwing Saras to the wolves with this bunch isn't the smartest idea either.

I'm so disappointed in this whole organization that I don't know where to start. We're not fixing this season, we're not working towards the future, we're just spinning our wheels. But, by gosh, we're still in the playoffs right now so maybe management thinks this is just fine. No hurry. Patience.

Was there booing last night? Was last night that bad?

What's going to happen first- Carlisle lose the team? The team lose Carlisle? The organization lose the fans?

I said the other day Carlisle has a knack for pulling the team together just when you think he's on the verge of losing it entirely. ...But I also offered the opinion that one day whatever magic he used to do that wouldn't work anymore. The old analogy of 'going to the well once to often' will eventually apply.

I like to take little snippets and mentally file them away for the future and I still have thoughts about Reggie's comment that Ron "..is not the bad egg". If it meant what it sounded like then it would seem he implied someone else was the bad egg.

Earlier this season there was some discussion about Sjax' comment that he'd give Reggie his ring (after we won) and the discussion centered around whether Reggie would accept it (since he didn't earn it on the court). I believe we can stop worrying about that now.... :cry:

-BBall

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 02:40 PM
I am simply amazed you are ready to give the reigns on this team to him, I can understand you wanting to trade Tins, but at least get a starting PG back.




Maybe you are misunderstanding my point, I'm saying Saras is not good enough and I'm saying that his teammates are not ready to follow him, so Saras shouldn't be "the" point guard on this team. And it would likely split the team if he were given the reins, but at this point able I'm more or less "throwing my hands up in the air" and saying let's try anything.

Bball
01-22-2006, 02:40 PM
.
Or as rick so apt put it on his last show; "Leader? this team has a leader and floor leaders, and does not need that from Saras, he should concentrate on his play, defense and offense and then maybe in time he can become one of the leaders"



Rick said that? Fire him now.

We have no team leaders on the floor. We have some players that are politically correct when a mic is in their face.

-Bball

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 02:50 PM
Rick said that? Fire him now.

We have no team leaders on the floor. We have some players that are politically correct when a mic is in their face.

-Bball



Yes Rick said that, it was interesting.

Bball the crowd last night was strange. It was sold out, but none of the half season ticket holders were there, this was the one game this season where the halfseason tickets were not included. But it was still a sell out and it seemed to me to be a night where a ton of groups were there, churches, social clubs, people from out of town, that sort of thing. So the fans seemed to me didn't care much one way or the other. There was a little booing but not very much at all, I just think a lot of people don't care.

indygeezer
01-22-2006, 02:58 PM
Rick said that? Fire him now.

We have no team leaders on the floor. We have some players that are politically correct when a mic is in their face.

-Bball

I said elsewhere this morning that I thought Cro was the real leader on this team and I still believe that.

I would like to see a breakdown of Saraunas' minutes. How many spent as a 1 and how many spent as a 2. It's ironic isn't it, the one that REALLY seemed to appreciate Saraunas was Ron Artest. At least that is what it looked like from the floor.
And I will ALWAYS go back to the start of this team crumbling as being when Jackson came out and said he should be getting more touches.
Artest...on the block
Jax.......shoots off mouth and disrupts chemistry (should be on the block)
Tinsley..constantly injured...replacement needed.

Seems like some of us have been calling for the ouster of these three since middle of last year.

rexnom
01-22-2006, 03:17 PM
Yes Rick said that, it was interesting.

Bball the crowd last night was strange. It was sold out, but none of the half season ticket holders were there, this was the one game this season where the halfseason tickets were not included. But it was still a sell out and it seemed to me to be a night where a ton of groups were there, churches, social clubs, people from out of town, that sort of thing. So the fans seemed to me didn't care much one way or the other. There was a little booing but not very much at all, I just think a lot of people don't care.

This is a big worry for me. I care a lot. All of us on this board probably care a lot but the casual Pacer fan or Indy resident has probably given up on the team at this point. I would love for a big trade to go down just to regain some more fan support. Say what you will about Ron but I think people generally liked him.

Jerry_McGuire
01-22-2006, 05:17 PM
Yes Rick said that, it was interesting.


Where did he say that, i'm interested? Cause if thats true... (:censored: :censored: :censored: )

Kstat
01-22-2006, 05:20 PM
Where did he say that, i'm interested? Cause if thats true... (:censored: :censored: :censored: )


Rick's right.

Nobody on the Pacers really gives a damn what Saras did in Europe. In the NBA, he's just another player, and a rookie at that. He's got to earn his respect in the locker room.

Lithfan
01-22-2006, 05:23 PM
The thing with Saras is that he needs the backing of the coach and he needs to be handed the keys. If the coach keeps jerking him around, playing him different spots, different minutes, etc. then he's never going to get the chance to prove himself to anyone nor will the players see him as someone they have to take seriously.

-BBall

That is so correct!
He showed greatness when he had completed coach trust.

But from that Rick comment - like he doesn't need to be a leader but should concentrate on his game and then , may be....
I smell smoke

Jerry_McGuire
01-22-2006, 05:25 PM
Rick's right.

Nobody on the Pacers really gives a damn what Saras did in Europe. In the NBA, he's just another player, and a rookie at that. He's got to earn his respect in the locker room.

Rick's right, or Able's right??? That's much of a difference.
I say f**k Rick - cause this team sucks now, and everyone seems satisfied with it, with no real options around to think about...

I'm outta here:mad:

fifo
01-22-2006, 05:25 PM
Maybe you are misunderstanding my point, I'm saying Saras is not good enough and I'm saying that his teammates are not ready to follow him, so Saras shouldn't be "the" point guard on this team. And it would likely split the team if he were given the reins, but at this point able I'm more or less "throwing my hands up in the air" and saying let's try anything.


Hey,
As a so-called 'Euro Fan' watching Saras during the last years just let me add this: I think you were very quick to identify his drawbacks, and they are true drawbacks indeed. What you haven't had a chance to see is some of the qualities that made him such a story around europe (and now in the Pacers forum).
Mainly: Saras is one of those rare players that has both the guts and the ability in the real big games. In the big playoffs matchups, when other players crumble, the guy becomes a cold blooded killer.
The look in his eyes in such games is something I could see only with players like Jordan, Bird, and the real great ones. A big winner's look.
This is what Larry saw there, and I hope you will get to see it too.

And yes, he does not need to be a starter to do that. He needs to be there when the game develops, and be involved. And yes - he needs to play with another guard (SG that is) that can handle the ball against pressure and move it to Saras in the offense.

I just wish you will get to see him in such moments, and realize why a these fans from all around Europe are crazy about his leadership, and professionalism.

:gopacers:

Hicks
01-22-2006, 05:29 PM
Rick's right.

Nobody on the Pacers really gives a damn what Saras did in Europe. In the NBA, he's just another player, and a rookie at that. He's got to earn his respect in the locker room.

Rick's not right in that he believes we have leaders already. We have JO as a vocal leader, Cro as a "quiet leader by example", but that's it. We have no floor general.

Hicks
01-22-2006, 05:30 PM
Hey,
As a so-called 'Euro Fan' watching Saras during the last years just let me add this: I think you were very quick to identify his drawbacks, and they are true drawbacks indeed. What you haven't had a chance to see is some of the qualities that made him such a story around europe (and now in the Pacers forum).
Mainly: Saras is one of those rare players that has both the guts and the ability in the real big games. In the big playoffs matchups, when other players crumble, the guy becomes a cold blooded killer.
The look in his eyes in such games is something I could see only with players like Jordan, Bird, and the real great ones. A big winner's look.
This is what Larry saw there, and I hope you will get to see it too.

And yes, he does not need to be a starter to do that. He needs to be there when the game develops, and be involved. And yes - he needs to play with another guard (SG that is) that can handle the ball against pressure and move it to Saras in the offense.

I just wish you will get to see him in such moments, and realize why a these fans from all around Europe are crazy about his leadership, and professionalism.

:gopacers:

Nothing would make me happier than to see this side of Saras in the playoffs.

Kstat
01-22-2006, 05:30 PM
Rick's not right in that he believes we have leaders already. We have JO as a vocal leader, Cro as a "quiet leader by example", but that's it. We have no floor general.

I should calrify that.

Right now the leader on the team is JO. He's the only guy that the whole locker room will listen to.

However, he's not doing a good job.

Jerry_McGuire
01-22-2006, 05:44 PM
I'm gonna say it one more time - It's not Saras ability to handle the ball, or
passing, or PPG, or shooting that made him best. IT IS EXACTLY WHAT
PACERS DO NEED NOW MADE HIM BEST KNOWN - 1) LEADERSHIP 2) ABILITY
TO MAKE TEAM BETTER WHEN GAME'S IN HIS HANDS 3) SPIRIT OF VICTORY
THAT MAKES TEAM GIVE IT'S 100%

Please contradict me if i'm dead wrong that Pacers need all that most right
now... Please those who know Saras - contradict me if i'm wrong saying that
all that are main qualities that Saras possesses...

As long as this team wont see that - that'll mean they dont see the key they
hold in their hands

Kstat
01-22-2006, 05:45 PM
I'm gonna say it one more time - It's not Saras ability to handle the ball, or
passing, or PPG, or shooting that made him best. IT IS EXACTLY WHAT
PACERS DO NEED NOW MADE HIM BEST KNOWN - 1) LEADERSHIP 2) ABILITY
TO MAKE TEAM BETTER WHEN GAME'S IN HIS HANDS 3) SPIRIT OF VICTORY
THAT MAKES TEAM GIVE IT'S 100%

Please contradict me if i'm dead wrong that Pacers need all that most right
now... Please those who know Saras - contradict me if i'm wrong saying that
all that are main qualities that Saras possesses...

As long as this team wont see that - that'll mean they dont see the key they
hold in their hands

It's a moot point because the locker room isnt going to follow a rookie that isn't even carrying his own weight. Carlisle could put a gold crown on Saras's head. Isn't going to make the players any more wiling to follow him.

Jerry_McGuire
01-22-2006, 05:52 PM
It's a moot point because the locker room isnt going to follow a rookie that isn't even carrying his own weight. Carlisle could put a gold crown on Saras's head. Isn't going to make the players any more wiling to follow him.

If Rick would give some trust to him, he'd do the rest... He cant become a
leader when Rick has put the game that way so Saras would slump...

One can't became a leader when he's locked up in a cell, whatever
qualities that one possesses.

Pacesetter
01-22-2006, 06:05 PM
I'm gonna say it one more time - It's not Saras ability to handle the ball, or
passing, or PPG, or shooting that made him best. IT IS EXACTLY WHAT
PACERS DO NEED NOW MADE HIM BEST KNOWN - 1) LEADERSHIP 2) ABILITY
TO MAKE TEAM BETTER WHEN GAME'S IN HIS HANDS 3) SPIRIT OF VICTORY
THAT MAKES TEAM GIVE IT'S 100%

Please contradict me if i'm dead wrong that Pacers need all that most right
now... Please those who know Saras - contradict me if i'm wrong saying that
all that are main qualities that Saras possesses...

As long as this team wont see that - that'll mean they dont see the key they
hold in their hands

I agree. It's time for coach to get behind Sarunas and tell the team to get over it, or we'll move you out. We've seen what this team does with its current leaders, and that's why we're in the shape we're in. Coach has to grow some balls and give the keys to Sarunas and bring JT off the bench. If JT resists then find him a new home. I'd rather lose knowing my guys gave every ounce of effort they had than to lose like we're doing now when you know we've got the talent but they won't give the effort it takes to win.

Sarunas needs to be the starting PG, and either bring AJ off the bench or JT off the bench. 5.1 assists per game doesn't cut it as the Pacers starting PG! JMO.

able
01-22-2006, 06:09 PM
For the Saras fans that do not quite grasp why the NBA veterans are not rolling over to let him become the leader:

In order to become a "floor-general" (and yes Hicks, we have one be it that he is oft injured) you have to be able to A: hold the ball; B: distribute the ball; C: play a semblence of defense, as a pg, picks someone's pockets now and then, help out in defense; D: Setup the star(s) of the team; E: Ensure a win; F: be a proven winner (with that same team you are on)

Rookies carry the bags, pick up the newspaper or the donuts in the morning and in general "pay their dues" like all the ones that went before them.
All these guys came through the draft, were picked, remained on a team and carved niche for themselves, by hard work.
Even the #1 draft pick has to pay hs dues, he does not get the keys to the franchise just because he's the next hottest thing since sliced bread.

In short: he has to prove himself.

He has by no means at all done that.

Not enough minutes ?

How many minutes did Tinsley get when the team's reigns were handed to Kenny Anderson in the 2003-04 season? 18 while down 30+ and an "off the bench instead of DNP" in the next game, had he failed he would still be sitting on the bench.

Or as Rick says it: You have to stay ready, be ready at all times, even if you're not playing, that is what a professional is all about.

As with everything in life, you have to earn it. His reputation and play in Europe gave him the entry to the NBA and a decent 12 mio/ 3 yr contract, something he could not get when he was playing in a US college. Now he has to prove that he can be of any value to that contract, and look forward from there.

Arcadian
01-22-2006, 06:12 PM
Saras hasn't earned anything. He hasn't shown that he can be a starting NBA point guard or a leader on this team. What he has done in Europe doesn't matter.

If Saras feels differently perhaps there is the problem.

able
01-22-2006, 06:16 PM
Sarunas needs to be the starting PG, and either bring AJ off the bench or JT off the bench. 5.1 assists per game doesn't cut it as the Pacers starting PG! JMO.

Aren't you defeating your own argument here ?

Saras: 38 games 14 starts 3.1 Ast and 9.1 ppg
Tinsley 21 games 19 starts 5.4 Ast and 11 ppg

Kstat
01-22-2006, 06:16 PM
I agree. It's time for coach to get behind Sarunas and tell the team to get over it, or we'll move you out.

:laugh:

*Ring*

Jermaine: "Hello?"

Rick: "Hey Jemraine, you know that rookie we signed this summer? We need you can all of your teamates to follow him. I know he hasn't proven anything to you, but if you don't like it, you'll have to be moved."

Jermaine: "Coach, it's too early in the morning for prank calls. Good one though." *click*

Pacesetter
01-22-2006, 06:17 PM
I agree, able, Sarunas has to prove himself, but you can't play the PG at the SG spot and expect him to prove what he can do as a PG. It just don't work that way.

Pacesetter
01-22-2006, 06:18 PM
Aren't you defeating your own argument here ?

Saras: 38 games 14 starts 3.1 Ast and 9.1 ppg
Tinsley 21 games 19 starts 5.4 Ast and 11 ppg

How many of those minutes were as a SG?

Tinsley's not even up on the NBA site because the guy has only played in 21 games ... gee go figure.

hoopsforlife
01-22-2006, 06:27 PM
It's a moot point because the locker room isnt going to follow a rookie that isn't even carrying his own weight. Carlisle could put a gold crown on Saras's head. Isn't going to make the players any more wiling to follow him.

Kstat: They put a gold crown on JO's head last summer and it hasn't worked. Sarunas is a natural leader. Its the way you were raised up, its something you have or don't have. Bird thinks Saras has it and so do I. He should be given this team the way they gave it to JO and let him go to work. JO sat on a bench in Portland because he didn't have enough natural leadership to assert himself then in that situation. Rasheed had it out there and brought it to Detroit. Nothing has changed for JO except for some people wishing him into a leadership role. Its not going to happen, ever.

If JO had said what Ron said about Ricks coaching would he have been kicked off the team? I think not. Ron was punished for past sins (and there were plenty) but what he said publicly was on the mind of very single player on the team.

Ron was taking a leadership position but his foundation was too weak to stand up under the pressure of his past. I think Ron was surprised or maybe shocked when his teammates didn't back him up but that goes back to his credibility with the team. He had none.

Cro is the closest thing we have to a leader on this team right now and that in itself says alot about this team.

fifo
01-22-2006, 06:29 PM
Saras hasn't earned anything. He hasn't shown that he can be a starting NBA point guard or a leader on this team. What he has done in Europe doesn't matter.

If Saras feels differently perhaps there is the problem.


You know... I'm a (proud) 'Euro-fan', and not anxious to make Saras a starter (personally I think he can make it, but he is better kept as a back-up PG, and stay healthy till play-off times). What strikes me is why you are so reluctant to give him a chance even though the team is obviously struggling and you get so many recommendations?

hoopsforlife
01-22-2006, 06:40 PM
You know... I'm a (proud) 'Euro-fan', and not anxious to make Saras a starter (personally I think he can make it, but he is better kept as a back-up PG, and stay healthy till play-off times). What strikes me is why you are so reluctant to give him a chance even though the team is obviously struggling and you get so many recommendations?

It is ultimately the coaches decision to play him or not. If we could control that I would play him a lot. I want to see what he has on the court. I really believe he could turn the year around if given the opportunity. He need the right kind of players around him to succeed. We have 5 or 6 of them but they aren't getting the minutes to develop a rythm.

We need an up tempo coaching style and unfortunately Ricks style is not it. Until this gets worked out we are going to struggle. I'm thinking a coaching change or massive 4-5 player change will be needed. Or both. :yikes:

Arcadian
01-22-2006, 06:41 PM
You know... I'm a (proud) 'Euro-fan', and not anxious to make Saras a starter (personally I think he can make it, but he is better kept as a back-up PG, and stay healthy till play-off times). What strikes me is why you are so reluctant to give him a chance even though the team is obviously struggling and you get so many recommendations?

I'm all for giving him a chance and think he is getting it. I just don't think he the answer to the pg position or leadership issues the team is having.

I base my judgement on what I've seen from him and the judgement of the coach, who is a winner at this level.

I certainly don't think Saras is good enough to start building a team around him and shipping out players or coaches who don't accept his leadership. I guess it is that notion that I am reacting most against.

fifo
01-22-2006, 06:58 PM
I'm all for giving him a chance and think he is getting it. I just don't think he the answer to the pg position or leadership issues the team is having.

I base my judgement on what I've seen from him and the judgement of the coach, who is a winner at this level.

I certainly don't think Saras is good enough to start building a team around him and shipping out players or coaches who don't accept his leadership. I guess it is that notion that I am reacting most against.

I see what you mean. In my opinion Saras was brought not to be the "all-star-starting-pg-franchise-player" but rather a player that can be a difference-maker between a contender and a champion (sadly the Pacers don't seem like neither right now). Also I think that the fact that the players (and maybe the coach) do not accept the leadership he brings is making the team's life harder than it should be currently.

I agree that you can't build a champion team around him. Also - I surely wouldn't build it around some of the players, that seem so ego-...iacs.

As for Saras, make no mistakes - this is a professional that will comply with the coach's decisions even if they make him look bad.
:boomer:

Bball
01-22-2006, 07:17 PM
For the Saras fans that do not quite grasp why the NBA veterans are not rolling over to let him become the leader:

In order to become a "floor-general" (and yes Hicks, we have one be it that he is oft injured)


Tinsley is a lot of things and floor general isn't one of them. It's laughable.

As for Saras being a rookie... Let's not overplay that either... He's a free agent. He's 29 years old. It's understandable he might make some 'rookie' type mistakes BUT it should be expected he quickly get past those. The team shouldn't be looking at him as a rookie (when it comes to him being a leader on the court). If they are, that is THEIR problem (and a team weakness) that is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

-Bball

Hicks
01-22-2006, 07:21 PM
Before we go any further, let's establish the definition of "floor general".

Kstat
01-22-2006, 07:29 PM
Before we go any further, let's establish the definition of "floor general".

high-assist, low-turnovers, has the ball for all clutch plays, and knows when to shoot and when to get others involved.

Most importantly: has the trust of his team.

Hicks
01-22-2006, 07:35 PM
See, those to me just describe an ideal point guard, not specifically a "floor general". When I see that term, I think of Mark Jackson.

Kstat
01-22-2006, 07:38 PM
See, those to me just describe an ideal point guard, not specifically a "floor general". When I see that term, I think of Mark Jackson.

Doesn't have to be in the mold of a non-scorer, but it would apply, yeah.

For most people, the ideal PG and a floor general are the same.

SoupIsGood
01-22-2006, 07:41 PM
high-assist, low-turnovers, has the ball for all clutch plays, and knows when to shoot and when to get others involved.

Most importantly: has the trust of his team.


This is what I always think of when someone says floor general (bolded).

Bball
01-22-2006, 07:58 PM
See, those to me just describe an ideal point guard, not specifically a "floor general". When I see that term, I think of Mark Jackson.

Kstat said it pretty well.

Mark Jackson was easily a floor general in my book. He was the leader of the Pacers team.

To Kstat's description I think you could add: "A coach on the floor".

-BBall

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 08:05 PM
Wouldn't a floor general be like a coach on the floor.


Edit: I swear I did not read Bball's post before I posted this.

Bball
01-22-2006, 08:26 PM
Wouldn't a floor general be like a coach on the floor.


Edit: I swear I did not read Bball's post before I posted this.

:borg:


-Bball

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 08:38 PM
Jason Kidd is clearly a floor general. John Stockton clearly was.

Is Billups. I think he is. Steve Nash is. Is Tony Parker? What about Baron Davis?

Hicks
01-22-2006, 08:41 PM
OK, so why do you consider (or not consider) Jamaal Tinsley a floor general? What are the things you see and/or do not see to base your decision?

Unclebuck
01-22-2006, 08:45 PM
OK, so why do you consider (or not consider) Jamaal Tinsley a floor general? What are the things you see and/or do not see to base your decision?


Not sure if you were asking someone else. But the biggest thing for me is his poor decision making.

Hicks
01-22-2006, 08:49 PM
The first thing I question about Tinsley is his mental composure. He can be a Technical Foul liability and he can also get absorbed in 1-uping his man rather than running the team.

SoupIsGood
01-22-2006, 08:50 PM
Jason Kidd is clearly a floor general. John Stockton clearly was.

Is Billups. I think he is. Steve Nash is. Is Tony Parker? What about Baron Davis?

Baron is not.

Can we call Ginobili a floor general?




But anyway, we aren't going to be able to trade for an already-established PG. I want to know which young PG's show this sort of potential. Are there any young PG's out there that play a smart game and maybe even defend well?


How is Jarrett Jack doing? I was a fan of his while he was in college.

Bball
01-22-2006, 08:50 PM
I'm going to offer a talking point here...

Could Carlisle's reluctance to use Saras mean maybe he doesn't want a 'floor general' out there?

Maybe, regardless of his talk about preferring to loosen the offense but saying he can't right now, really means he doesn't want to....ever...

-Bball

Hicks
01-22-2006, 08:56 PM
Bball I want to know your answers to my Tinsley question (is he or is he not a floor leader, and why?)

Evan_The_Dude
01-22-2006, 09:00 PM
The floor general should also be a leader. "Coach on the floor" would be the best description. Jamaal is a good point guard, but the floor general has to be someone you can count on to be available almost every game of the season. I can't put my finger on it, but Tinsley's attitude is what keeps him from being a floor general - along with his lack of reliability.

The floor general is like your boss at work. He's the one that can be counted on over everybody else. Do you expect your boss to miss 18 days of work per year (calling in sick)? Would you consider him a boss that you can follow? If he slacks off, are you going to work as hard if he's the one in control of things? This is why Tinsley isn't a good floor general.

I do think Sarunas can become a good floor general for us. He definitely has the qualities. He just needs to earn the trust of his teammates a little more. I think next season - or maybe even in the playoffs this year we might just see that.

I know he lacks the ability to play defense, but if we can get this team healthy and on the same page then we can play good enough 'team defense' to overcome his weakness. Hey, it worked with Mark Jackson didn't it?

Kstat
01-22-2006, 09:04 PM
Bball I want to know your answers to my Tinsley question (is he or is he not a floor leader, and why?)

I think the "knowing when to pass and when to shoot" area is where tinsley struggles a lot.

Kstat
01-22-2006, 09:05 PM
We need to get some easier baskets.

No, because Manu is a scorer, and doesnt get others better shots.

Bball
01-22-2006, 09:08 PM
Bball I want to know your answers to my Tinsley question (is he or is he not a floor leader, and why?)

Tinsley is not a floor general/leader. He's too much about 'Tinsley' when he's on the court. He doesn't care as much about the offense flowing as him finding a guy to get him an assist or calling his own number. Nothing wrong with calling your own number but he does it too much and at odd times.

If you make a break for the basket, I think Tinsley will find you. I seriously doubt he'll ever do anything so that you can make your break to the basket tho.

He's not a guy that will be making the pass that LEADS to the pass that gets an assist.

And FWIW... a true floor general will also be watching intently when he's on the bench to learn what is happening on the court from a different perspective (to apply it when he gets back in the game). He'll be pointing out things to teammates....even coaches. He'll be discussing things.

He'll try and MOTIVATE his teammates, whether on court or off.

That's not Tinsley.

-Bball

Evan_The_Dude
01-22-2006, 09:08 PM
Baron is not.


I disagree. He's a floor general of a different sort. He's out there to make thing's happen whether it's him scoring or it's making sure everybody is involved. I think he has more responsibility in his hands than any other floor general in the NBA. I call him a floor general because of the amazing turnaround he created the moment he joined the Warriors. They are complete garbage without him.

Evan_The_Dude
01-22-2006, 09:12 PM
Another point. I say Saras has floor general capabilities because rather than him getting a lot of assists under his own name, he moves the ball to set up the play that leads to the assist. But he needs to play in position to be able to do this more often.

SwissExpress
01-22-2006, 09:14 PM
I'm going to offer a talking point here...

Could Carlisle's reluctance to use Saras mean maybe he doesn't want a 'floor general' out there?

Maybe, regardless of his talk about preferring to loosen the offense but saying he can't right now, really means he doesn't want to....ever...

-Bball

I haven't ever physically been in a Pacers game, and TV doesn't show the coach too much, except during breaks. Thus, I would like a short clarification on how Carlisle usually acts during games? E.g., is he giving orders on which plays his playmakers should run during each possesion or does he save that kind of directions for breaks, etc?

Bball
01-22-2006, 09:19 PM
I haven't ever physically been in a Pacers game, and TV doesn't show the coach too much, except during breaks. Thus, I would like a short clarification on how Carlisle usually acts during games? E.g., is he giving orders on which plays his playmakers should run during each possesion or does he save that kind of directions for breaks, etc?

Carlisle is off the bench shouting/signaling a play on most every possession.... unless it is a fast break. I assume sometimes he is simply signaling to just get into the offense and free lance (or maybe it's to work their bread and butter)... but he even signals that.

Unless you have an obvious fast break, you look to the sideline as you bring the ball up the court.



-Bball

Arcadian
01-22-2006, 09:37 PM
As far as I am concerned floor general is just another name people call point guards.

The fact of the matter is a player either helps his team win or doesn't.

BlueNGold
01-22-2006, 10:32 PM
The first thing I question about Tinsley is his mental composure. He can be a Technical Foul liability and he can also get absorbed in 1-uping his man rather than running the team.

The 1-uping is a Tinsley trademark, isn't it? It is a distinct sign of immaturity. I wonder how often his 1-uping results in a fast break and easy bucket for the other team...then a Tinechnical?

BTW, other PG's sometimes do that, but Tins does it every time he is burned on the other end.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-22-2006, 11:22 PM
Does the floor general really have to be the point guard? Michael Jordan and Larry Bird were pretty much the floor general's on their teams. They didn't bring the ball up the court or lead the team into the play, but they took charge of the "floor" when they were in the game.

Bball
01-22-2006, 11:23 PM
As far as I am concerned floor general is just another name people call point guards.

The fact of the matter is a player either helps his team win or doesn't.

That may be how you define it but I don't think that is the convention definition in basketball parlance.

Floor generals don't have to be PG's for one thing.... but it can be a natural transition.

AJ plays PG for the Pacers but I don't think anyone would confuse him for a "coach on the floor".

-Bball

Arcadian
01-23-2006, 02:24 AM
Who has been called a floor general that wasn't a PG?

By the way when I think of floor general I think of Avery Johnson. So the term isn't very impressive to me. Maybe that is the problem.

Kstat
01-23-2006, 04:30 AM
Does the floor general really have to be the point guard? Michael Jordan and Larry Bird were pretty much the floor general's on their teams. They didn't bring the ball up the court or lead the team into the play, but they took charge of the "floor" when they were in the game.

Both of them played some point at one time or another in their careers.

In any case, they made the players around them better, and they ran the team, so yeah.

Lithfan
01-23-2006, 04:47 AM
Carlisle is off the bench shouting/signaling a play on most every possession.... unless it is a fast break. I assume sometimes he is simply signaling to just get into the offense and free lance (or maybe it's to work their bread and butter)... but he even signals that.

Unless you have an obvious fast break, you look to the sideline as you bring the ball up the court.



-Bball



Yeah, I've seen that. Isnt that awful?
Think about it, coach doesn't know as much as player does about microsituation right now in the game. He better let them do small decisions, leave tactics to the players.
He has to worry about strategy. And thats something he is not doing. Otherwise he would start Saras in Tinsley absense, so he could decide if he is or not starting material. He would play more or less constant starting five so some chemistry would have finally develope.
But no, instead of working out strategy he goes into small tactics and gets lost. That results in constantly changing lineup, unclear change of players in critical minutes etc.

Now to definition of floor general. I think its one who takes care of tactics. Right now Rick Carlisle is trying to be one, without actually playing.

Thats explains me right now why he dislikes Saras and preffers non-leading leaders, see JO. Saras is trying to get Rick's job!

Lithfan
01-23-2006, 08:15 AM
I'm going to offer a talking point here...

Could Carlisle's reluctance to use Saras mean maybe he doesn't want a 'floor general' out there?

Maybe, regardless of his talk about preferring to loosen the offense but saying he can't right now, really means he doesn't want to....ever...

-Bball


Yes, exactly what I think.
Rick wants to be floor general by himself.

indygeezer
01-23-2006, 08:25 AM
Rick appears to be a classic Micromanager. But before you call for his head, he will be given a free ride thru next year at least becasue of all the turmoil he has had to endure. I wonder if he'd allow Jason Kidd to run the offense if he played for the P's.

Point forward....Magic Johnson.

Kobe is the Lakers F.G., he is not the PG tho.

SwissExpress
01-23-2006, 08:53 AM
Who has been called a floor general that wasn't a PG?


Some non-PGs did have such titles. Or even very related nicknames. E.g., David Robinson, Sabonis, Ewing.

Arcadian
01-23-2006, 10:58 PM
I have never seen any of those players called floor generals before not. I know Robison was the Admiral but that's not what they meant.

If Ewing is a floor general then I have no idea what it means anymore.