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Bball
01-20-2006, 09:40 PM
So if we were to shop JO, who would listen and who could we get?

A: Is JO worth the money that he's being paid? (You can look at that thru what he brings to the court and/or what he brings to the gate (ticket sales)).

B: (I can't believe I'm saying this) With JO gone I'd consider letting Artest play in an effort to 1: see how he operates with a new offense and without JO... and 2: to increase his trade value (which is not happening when a team that has fallen from contender status (Pacers) still won't play him. That's sending the wrong signal)

C: Addition thru subtraction. Just how important to this team is JO?

In regards to those questions, I don't think JO is nearly as important as his salary would indicate. And that is key here. We are in salary hell and JO is only going to cost more. His trade value might be its highest right now.

If JO was truly the cornerstone of this franchise the loss of Artest shouldn't mean all that much AND the loss of JO (to injury/illness) should mean a lot more than it usually does.

Could we balance this roster better with a JO trade? What names could we land and how would they fit with the existing team? How would the casual and general fans react to this?

-Bball

Kegboy
01-20-2006, 09:44 PM
Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, and Caron Butler.

GetOdom
01-20-2006, 09:48 PM
Bball i respect your opinions and your knowledge but this thread is your worst EVER!

Shameful of you :blush:

Evan_The_Dude
01-20-2006, 09:51 PM
I think trading JO and playing Artest would be the biggest slap in the face to JO we could possibly give him. It would hurt us in attracting free agents in the future, and it would probably upset every player on this team not named Stephen Jackson.

GetOdom
01-20-2006, 09:53 PM
Btw, i hate you Bball :mad:

Bball
01-20-2006, 09:55 PM
Bball i respect your opinions and your knowledge but this thread is your worst EVER!

Shameful of you :blush:

I'm trying to take a bigger picture view of the Pacers. It's not about this season alone. Maybe not even about the next per se'. I'm thinking about the next 3-5 years and where we need to be and what's available to us to get there.

Is JO really that piece that we'll be able to count on (both for wins AND fans at the gate) or are we starting from a flawed propostion to begin with? Just his salary and the implications from that (immediately AND in the near future) should give us pause and give us reason to really start thinking about things.

If the championship window has slammed shut then I think all bets are off.

-Bball

Bball
01-20-2006, 09:59 PM
I think trading JO and playing Artest would be the biggest slap in the face to JO we could possibly give him. It would hurt us in attracting free agents in the future, and it would probably upset every player on this team not named Stephen Jackson.

We'd only be playing Artest in the short term with the idea to increase his trade value (which might not happen until the summer) with an outside shot that we could take advantage of his return and the new pieces this season for a playoff run.

As for FA's in the future... We don't pursue FA's. Sarunas was an oddity in that regard, not the norm. I'm not really seeing it making any difference anyway. If you want a FA, open the wallet and he shall come.


-Bball

GetOdom
01-20-2006, 10:00 PM
JO for who though? Kevin Garnett?

Jermaniac
01-20-2006, 10:11 PM
What do you think a player of JO's caliber is going to get paid? What do you want him to take the damn MLE. Look at the NBA everyone who is close to JO is getting huge contracts, look at what Michael Redd got. Who ever we bring in for JO we are going to have to pay alot of money for.

Best player on the team, most important player on the team, The Franchise. Jermaine O'Neal. Isnt going anywhere.

GetOdom
01-20-2006, 10:11 PM
I think Bball is just bitter his hero Ron is not gonna play for the Pacers.

Jermaniac
01-20-2006, 10:13 PM
And how funny, the biggest JO and Tins hater, wants to get rid of the guys who want to play here and keep that scumbag Ron Artest on the team. You dont know what the hell your are talking about.

Bball
01-20-2006, 10:23 PM
Did someone miss the part where I said -a part- of the proposition was the possibility of getting Artest back on the court to increase his trade value? And I only said it was a consideration. With JO traded you could consider it since this season would honestly be about the future anyway. This is not about Artest. Anything there is secondary.

This season was supposed to be about a championship. Now it's not. Once again, our championship dreams are about the future. So let's think about the future. Is JO the centerpiece of a championship team? Can we build around him or is his salary constantly going to be a problem here on out? If you're confident JO is a franchise player then I suppose the answer to all this is easy. If you think JO is something less than a franchise player then we have a problem. ..and that means- Do we fix it now... or do we fix it later?

How much better can JO get... and he's not exactly a 'young' player anymore. It's arguable that he's maxed the physical part of his game already (or soon will).

-Bball

blanket
01-20-2006, 10:24 PM
I expect JO to be traded if not this summer then (more likely) the summer 0f 2007 for one of the up-and-coming PFs like Chris Bosh (unless we've already acquired JO's replacement by then, such as Ike Diogu, in which case I'd expect him to be traded for a player or players at other positions). The last 3-4 years of his contract are too much $ for this franchise.

Anthem
01-20-2006, 11:11 PM
I still think we should have pushed JO for KG this summer.

Jermaniac
01-20-2006, 11:14 PM
And what makes you think the T'Wolves want to do that? Maybe we should have pushed for Duncan and Shaq too.

McKeyFan
01-20-2006, 11:17 PM
Best player on the team, most important player on the team, The Franchise.

There you go. Probably why its a good idea to trade him.

This franchise ain't so hot right now.

Bball
01-20-2006, 11:42 PM
Could Sjax and Pierce co-exist if JO was gone? That pretty much negates any idea of upping Artest's trade value thru playing him... unless it's off the bench and we'd be asking for trouble in that case. ...Unless Sjax would come off the bench so his 'buddy' could start.

Sounds like trouble to me...

But then this isn't about getting Artest back on the court anyway... it's about pointing the team to the future.

-Bball

Young
01-20-2006, 11:55 PM
There was a point in time early on in the season when I wanted JO traded, mainly for Kevin Garnett but you know now I really will be pissed if we trade Jermaine.

For one thing he stepped up the leadership this season, mainly after that blowout loss to the Bobcats, and I think that JO has done alot for the franchise. What kind of message would it be sending to other players if we trade JO for pretty much no reason. Maybe we will never win a championship with JO but I think we have to ride this out longer and stick with him as our franchise guy and keep building around him.

Lets pretend we trade JO and then make a second trade. If you are a player coming here in that second trade how excited would you be to be playing for the Pacers when they just traded their franchise player for no good reason.

BTW, to answer your questions.

A) **** yeah he is worth every dang dime he is being paid. Why? Because big men are always overpaid and while he is paid alot he is a damn good big man so that makes him worth his 120 million contract over 7 years.
B) If Artest EVER plays again as a Pacer someone has to die. Not saying i'd do the killing but someone would defentily have to die because no way he
should Artest EVER EVER EVER EVERE EVER be allowed to be a Pacer EVER again.
C) JO is the franchise player of this team. How good have the Lakers been since Shaq left? How well has Portland played since trading Rasheed Wallace? How well have the Kings played since trading Chris Webber? Yeah CWebb was dumped for salary purposes I believe and they have sucked without CWebb. Trading Artest will be addition by subtracting but trading JO would be the worst thing this team could do.

Jermaniac
01-20-2006, 11:57 PM
Could Sjax and Pierce co-exist if JO was gone? That pretty much negates any idea of upping Artest's trade value thru playing him... unless it's off the bench and we'd be asking for trouble in that case. ...Unless Sjax would come off the bench so his 'buddy' could start.

Sounds like trouble to me...

But then this isn't about getting Artest back on the court anyway... it's about pointing the team to the future.

-BballSo Pierce is a franchise player and JO isnt?

Pacesetter
01-21-2006, 12:03 AM
The standard MO around here seems to be that when a player is legitimately hurt he is questioned, and when a player makes mistakes during games he is put on the trading blocks. Why don't some of you guys try an alternative, such as showing loyalty to our players, and supporting them when they are down? Isn't this the part of being a fan that means something to people anymore?

JO's always given his best since coming to the Pacers, he has steadily rose to the top of his game and could have gone anywhere but stuck with us. He's shown loyalty and I think he deserves nothing less in return. He's got my full support. Get well soon JO!

P.S. + as an added bonus the guy is cool!!!!

heywoode
01-21-2006, 12:26 AM
So Pierce is a franchise player and JO isnt?

He's a heck of a lot more clutch than JO is, that is for sure...


I'm trying to remember that Bball was simply throwing something out there for discussion, and not jump all over him for posing a question for thought and discussion.

I like JO. I like his game, except for his performance under pressure. He is very talented with both hands, has good touch, plays with great passion, and is a pretty good defender.

That said, I'm STILL not convinced he is a franchise-caliber player. My feeling is that there just aren't that many true franchise players in the NBA anymore. Just about every team that has a Garnett, Duncan, or whomever can find a way to compete without them for short periods of time. The team's ability to compete without JO really isn't a good criteria for comparison to me.

I think that the Pacers could survive trading JO just fine, depending on what we got for him. The fact that his salary is huge is immaterial, because as was pointed out by someone else, anyone we try to replace him with will probably be a max player too. I wouldn't feel very comfortable getting rid of JO for anything less.

The big problem I have with JO is that he still needs to work on his mental strength. I think he has stepped up as a VOCAL leader for this team, but he still has a long way to go where he can will the team to a win, or keep his teammates in a game with his calm, clutch play. He still gets taken out of his game too easily. Part of that is his not having gone to college, in my opinion. He isn't a total hothead, or totally immature, but just enough that he makes me nervous about being the franchise player, and cornerstone of the team.

Considering all that, I would trade JO for KG (the Wolves wouldn't), but that is about it. He is definitely talented enough to lead the new Pacers into a new decade of elite status competition, but I'm just not sold that he has the mental strength to do it.

I'm here to root for him and support him and the rest of the Pacers, one way or the other.

Thanks for posing the question, Bball. I think it is very stimulating to give it some cool, emotionless, business-like thought. I think the Pacers would be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't do the same.

PacerMan
01-21-2006, 12:26 AM
So if we were to shop JO, who would listen and who could we get?

A: Is JO worth the money that he's being paid? (You can look at that thru what he brings to the court and/or what he brings to the gate (ticket sales)).

B: (I can't believe I'm saying this) With JO gone I'd consider letting Artest play in an effort to 1: see how he operates with a new offense and without JO... and 2: to increase his trade value (which is not happening when a team that has fallen from contender status (Pacers) still won't play him. That's sending the wrong signal)

C: Addition thru subtraction. Just how important to this team is JO?

In regards to those questions, I don't think JO is nearly as important as his salary would indicate. And that is key here. We are in salary hell and JO is only going to cost more. His trade value might be its highest right now.

If JO was truly the cornerstone of this franchise the loss of Artest shouldn't mean all that much AND the loss of JO (to injury/illness) should mean a lot more than it usually does.

Could we balance this roster better with a JO trade? What names could we land and how would they fit with the existing team? How would the casual and general fans react to this?

-Bball


Nominate for silliest post of the new year.

PacerMan
01-21-2006, 12:28 AM
We'd only be playing Artest in the short term with the idea to increase his trade value (which might not happen until the summer) with an outside shot that we could take advantage of his return and the new pieces this season for a playoff run.

As for FA's in the future... We don't pursue FA's. Sarunas was an oddity in that regard, not the norm. I'm not really seeing it making any difference anyway. If you want a FA, open the wallet and he shall come.


-Bball

ANd you'd let your child molesting uncle live with you and your daughter? Just till he finds a place??
Same concept.........................

heywoode
01-21-2006, 12:30 AM
ANd you'd let your child molesting uncle live with you and your daughter? Just till he finds a place??
Same concept.........................

You just topped your own nomination.


Nominate for silliest post of the new year.

Surely you can come up with something more to add to the discussion than that.

Bball
01-21-2006, 12:50 AM
Lets pretend we trade JO and then make a second trade. If you are a player coming here in that second trade how excited would you be to be playing for the Pacers when they just traded their franchise player for no good reason.


This is kind of a strawman argument as I see it. If we traded JO it would not be without reason. You could argue the reason was short-sighted or simply not valid but there would be a reason. It would come down to a question of ROI. JO is costing this franchise a lot of money. Quite honestly, I don't think he's worth the money he is commanding. He's not expanded his game all that much since the day he signed his contract (IMHO). And he's not getting any younger.

Yes, he talks an excellent game when a microphone is in his face. But talk is cheap. Doug in Ohio has coined him "Mr 3rd Quarter" and he's not without justification in that. It may not all be JO's fault (I've already argued we're over-using him). He may be out of gas by the 4th qtr. OTOH, the great players have an extra gear they can find when they need it and I can't say JO has that gear.

JO is more 'second fiddle' than 1st violin. And he does it from a position where we could use some other things (the 'little' things of the game) that he just doesn't bring. Not consistently.

You said:

"how excited would you be to be playing for the Pacers when they just traded their franchise player for no good reason"

I'd counter by saying that if the Pacers traded JO it would be because they have decided he has not grown into the franchise player that they hoped he'd be by this point. So they wouldn't be trading their franchise player.




BTW, to answer your questions.

A) **** yeah he is worth every dang dime he is being paid. Why? Because big men are always overpaid and while he is paid alot he is a damn good big man so that makes him worth his 120 million contract over 7 years.
B) If Artest EVER plays again as a Pacer someone has to die. Not saying i'd do the killing but someone would defentily have to die because no way he
should Artest EVER EVER EVER EVERE EVER be allowed to be a Pacer EVER again.
C) JO is the franchise player of this team. How good have the Lakers been since Shaq left? How well has Portland played since trading Rasheed Wallace? How well have the Kings played since trading Chris Webber? Yeah CWebb was dumped for salary purposes I believe and they have sucked without CWebb. Trading Artest will be addition by subtracting but trading JO would be the worst thing this team could do.

As I said, I just mentioned the Artest option because with JO gone it would be back on the table. I certainly wouldn't trade JO simply so I could have that option.

I guess C is the thing I really question. For whatever reason... injury...suspension... JO has missed games and it hasn't really made that big of a difference. Sure, maybe you could use the excuse that the team could rally a game or two without him... but I see his absence time and time again just not hurt that bad when he's out. And his return doesn't suddenly make us monsters. IOW, his loss is more a matter of being shorthanded... not missing a vital piece of the team. That's not a 120mil player. He should make a dramatic difference and I just don't think he does that.

How long do you wait and hope he blossoms into that next stratosphere and it all clicks? And make no mistake, I question his mental game and maturity still. I just no longer accept age as an excuse.

And as long as we're paying him like we do, we're not going to have an easy time finding pieces of the puzzle. We couldn't afford JJ last summer. There's talk Freddie is playing himself right out of our pocketbook now. I think it's clear JO is overpaid. That's nothing new for the Pacers. What would be new is admitting it and doing something about it before it's too late.

We now have the opportunity.

JO was handed the keys to the franchise while he was still on his learner's permit. It may be time to move him out of the driver's seat.

-Bball

Roy Munson
01-21-2006, 12:50 AM
Bosh

Pacers#1Fan
01-21-2006, 01:00 AM
I want to squash the JO for KG thing right now. KG is the NBA's answer to Peyton Manning, he'll be outstanding, amazing, incredible during the regular season but when playoff time comes around... he puts his tail between his legs and hides. KG can't win the big game. KG may have been the MVP a couple of seasons ago but how far did the T-Wolves make it in the playoffs? Exactly. I know JO hasn't done much in the playoffs either but he has done more than KG. Kevin and Peyton really would be a match maid in Heaven.

Outlaw
01-21-2006, 01:06 AM
I don't think anybody should be considered untouchable if it will help improve the team.

SoupIsGood
01-21-2006, 02:01 AM
I knew Bball was going to do this. Whenever JO misses a few games, he starts up a "We are better without JO" thread, or something similar.

The idea is to get more players like JO, not to trade them away. He's played great this season. This thread is just silly.

heywoode
01-21-2006, 02:12 AM
I knew Bball was going to do this. Whenever JO misses a few games, he starts up a "We are better without JO" thread, or something similar.

The idea is to get more players like JO, not to trade them away. He's played great this season. This thread is just silly.

Yet you still found reason to read it and post in it........

The man was asking questions, not saying we should trade him.

JO has played well, and that was part of his point; maybe his trade value is at it's highest and if we aren't getting the feeling that he is mature or consistent enough to build around, now is the time to at least DISCUSS parting ways. I don't want to end up as the next T'wolves....a highly paid, franchise cornerstone that leads us to the first round of the playoffs every year....

No one should be considered untouchable. It is detrimental to the team concept and makes players emotionally lazy sometimes. Bottom line, franchises are ran with business in mind, and not emotional attachments.

I would be fine keeping him, and maybe if we finally do something with Artest and maybe another player or two heading off into the sunset, we can form a better opinion about even discussing JO in this context.

GetOdom
01-21-2006, 02:16 AM
Why isn't this thread locked? do we need this crap everytime? seriously it's a shame when a franchise player is getting trashed.

are we spoiled????

SoupIsGood
01-21-2006, 02:18 AM
Yet you still found reason to read it and post in it........

The man was asking questions, not saying we should trade him.

JO has played well, and that was part of his point; maybe his trade value is at it's highest and if we aren't getting the feeling that he is mature or consistent enough to build around, now is the time to at least DISCUSS parting ways. I don't want to end up as the next T'wolves....a highly paid, franchise cornerstone that leads us to the first round of the playoffs every year....

No one should be considered untouchable. It is detrimental to the team concept and makes players emotionally lazy sometimes. Bottom line, franchises are ran with business in mind, and not emotional attachments.

I would be fine keeping him, and maybe if we finally do something with Artest and maybe another player or two heading off into the sunset, we can form a better opinion about even discussing JO in this context.


Give me one team that has traded it's star player and come away better off for it. If I remember right, it has historically being a disastrous move.

Bball
01-21-2006, 02:25 AM
I knew Bball was going to do this. Whenever JO misses a few games, he starts up a "We are better without JO" thread, or something similar.

The idea is to get more players like JO, not to trade them away. He's played great this season. This thread is just silly.

It's not silly at all... The window that was our championship dream has closed shut on this team as it's currently constructed. There's very little chance that Artest alone is going to bring us the piece we need nor is it going to suddenly balance our roster.

We can pretend everything is fine and when JO gets back we'll go on a roll... or that Sjack will find his groove and we'll go on a tear... or that Tinsley is healing and will be back to take us to new heights... or that [insert player here] is about to make it happen...

But you know what? We've been down that road before. And where are we now?

And if you can get more players like JO, what exactly are you going to pay them? We can't afford to keep them. The better they play, the more they price themselves out of our market. JO is soaking up a huge portion of salary.

This is a critical juncture in Pacerland. How they play their hand could have long term ramnifications. We have a chance to rethink the horse to which we've hitched our wagon. We won't have too many, if any other chances, to take mulligan on this. We better be dayumed sure we're certain JO is "the man" to lead this team.

Are TPTB that sold on JO? Should they be?

-Bball

SoupIsGood
01-21-2006, 02:34 AM
It's not silly at all... The window that was our championship dream has closed shut on this team as it's currently constructed. There's very little chance that Artest alone is going to bring us the piece we need nor is it going to suddenly balance our roster.

We can pretend everything is fine and when JO gets back we'll go on a roll... or that Sjack will find his groove and we'll go on a tear... or that Tinsley is healing and will be back to take us to new heights... or that [insert player here] is about to make it happen...

But you know what? We've been down that road before. And where are we now?

And if you can get more players like JO, what exactly are you going to pay them? We can't afford to keep them. The better they play, the more they price themselves out of our market. JO is soaking up a huge portion of salary.

This is a critical juncture in Pacerland. How they play their hand could have long term ramnifications. We have a chance to rethink the horse to which we've hitched our wagon. We won't have too many, if any other chances, to take mulligan on this. We better be dayumed sure we're certain JO is "the man" to lead this team.

Are TPTB that sold on JO? Should they be?

-Bball


No doubt. You've suggested that we need new owners, a new GM, a new franchise player, a new...... where does it stop? Is there anything about this team that you don't want replaced?

Bball
01-21-2006, 02:38 AM
Give me one team that has traded it's star player and come away better off for it. If I remember right, it has historically being a disastrous move.

As long as we're not over-rating JO then you could be right...
But JO was annointed the star player. He never really earned it. And he was certainly trending upward, even tho there were always flaws. But that ascension doesn't seem so fast now, if it hasn't flatlined. The flaws are still there. Even the immaturity, that you'd think he would be totally past by now, is still there lurking in the corners.

And we've had a bunch of games to evaluate JO's impact. Both in game and out. Is he really making the kind of difference you'd expect of a 'star' player?
We're paying a lot of money for what JO brings.

One last thing to consider... If we consider Detroit our biggest obstacle, or the mountain that needs climbed, is JO able to do it? So far, Detroit has had JO's number. Sheed owns him. ...Altho, Detroit seems several notches past our immediate worries.

-Bball

heywoode
01-21-2006, 02:42 AM
Give me one team that has traded it's star player and come away better off for it. If I remember right, it has historically being a disastrous move.

Who said he was a "star player"?

It's not like we're talking about trading away Shaq's dominance.

Forget I ever posted in this thread. I get so tired of trying to make the same point over and over. It is also tiring when the actual discussing of changes is what you have to defend.

Fine. Let's keep everybody we have, sign them all to whatever they want, and just talk about whether we won or lost. Let's not expound at all on anything a little (or a lot) off the wall, just for discussion's sake.

Heck, what we've been doing has been working so well, why even THINK of changing anything??

Bball
01-21-2006, 02:46 AM
No doubt. You've suggested that we need new owners, a new GM, a new franchise player, a new...... where does it stop? Is there anything about this team that you don't want replaced?

I really like the Popcorn wagon on the lower level of Conseco. Don't replace that! :-p

I don't like the management of the team right now. We are too slow to react. The rest of the NBA is passing us by. The situation with Artest should've been headed off one way or the other before it got to the point it did. The salary situation is out of control and has been for quite some time.

Management needs to be looking at where this team is at right now and doing something. They also need to be setting the stage for the future. The fans need a shot of adrenaline, not more of the same 'patience, patience, patience'. We've had 20 years of patience. Nobody should go without questioning right now. From the owners to management to coaching to the players. Not even the 120 million dollar man.

This is fast becoming a lost year. Not only is it about nothing this season, but very little for next season.

I think our franchise and franchise player could stand some scrutiny right now. Blind loyalists need not apply.

-Bball

Bball
01-21-2006, 02:50 AM
Who said he was a "star player"?

It's not like we're talking about trading away Shaq's dominance.

Heck, what we've been doing has been working so well, why even THINK of changing anything??

It's nice when somebody understands the point of the discussion. You are correct, part of the discussion has turned into defending the question(s) instead of an indepth look at things.

"If we shopped JO, who would listen and who could we get?" has, instead of being answered, turned into "What a stupid question. Lock this thread"

-BBall

heywoode
01-21-2006, 02:54 AM
"If we shopped JO, who would listen and who could we get?" has, instead of being answered, turned into "What a stupid question. Lock this thread"

-BBall

Happens darn near every day. Panties get bunched, loyalists get riled, threads get hijacked, people wanting to discuss things get frustrated.....the list goes on and on.

And to answer the one word response to the original set of questions: Bosh isn't nearly ready to step into JO's shoes. He's definitely good, but he has a long way to go before I let go of JO for him...

SoupIsGood
01-21-2006, 03:03 AM
Who said he was a "star player"?

It's not like we're talking about trading away Shaq's dominance.

Forget I ever posted in this thread. I get so tired of trying to make the same point over and over. It is also tiring when the actual discussing of changes is what you have to defend.

Fine. Let's keep everybody we have, sign them all to whatever they want, and just talk about whether we won or lost. Let's not expound at all on anything a little (or a lot) off the wall, just for discussion's sake.

Heck, what we've been doing has been working so well, why even THINK of changing anything??
Okay, just for discussion's sake, we could try not getting all overly defensive. :twocents:

JO might not be a superstar, but he is a star. Trading your star equals a bad move. My opinion. One that (if I remember correctly) is backed up by history, for the most part.


My.



Opinion.

heywoode
01-21-2006, 03:11 AM
Okay, just for discussion's sake, we could try not getting all overly defensive. :twocents:

JO might not be a superstar, but he is a star. Trading your star equals a bad move. My opinion. One that (if I remember correctly) is backed up by history, for the most part.


My.



Opinion.

Well, I tried being a lot less succinct about it, but it didn't seem to be getting through...

He is definitely an all-star caliber player. I would add that if we did a couple other strategic trades, starting with finally ending the Artest fiasco, we could give JO a better chance to show what he is capable of. In all fairness to him, how much do we think he could've accomplished now that we have a little more insight into the train wreck the team has been with the current group?

Lastly, I respect your opinion. All my defensiveness wasn't completely directed at you...sorry if it seemed to be.

SoupIsGood
01-21-2006, 03:15 AM
I really like the Popcorn wagon on the lower level of Conseco. Don't replace that! :-p

I don't like the management of the team right now. We are too slow to react. The rest of the NBA is passing us by. The situation with Artest should've been headed off one way or the other before it got to the point it did. The salary situation is out of control and has been for quite some time.

Management needs to be looking at where this team is at right now and doing something. They also need to be setting the stage for the future. The fans need a shot of adrenaline, not more of the same 'patience, patience, patience'. We've had 20 years of patience. Nobody should go without questioning right now. From the owners to management to coaching to the players. Not even the 120 million dollar man.

This is fast becoming a lost year. Not only is it about nothing this season, but very little for next season.

I think our franchise and franchise player could stand some scrutiny right now. Blind loyalists need not apply.

-Bball

Popcorn wagon?!


About management - I blame the management for setting us up for yet ANOTHER year where we have to watch our team play severely short-handed game in and game out. :( I just don't get a kick out of playing without our best SF and PG every game. After last year, I just feel that they should have made sure to get us players who will at least play in a lot of games for us. Ron (obviously) and Tins simply haven't done that this season.

Ultimate Frisbee
01-21-2006, 05:03 AM
I second the notion of trading JO... but I have never made it a secret that I don't enjoy watching JO play.

Fool
01-21-2006, 05:16 AM
Starts with a "D", ends in an "O" the middle built by Noah himself. Trade J.O. for the next J.O.....

Bball
01-21-2006, 06:14 AM
Starts with a "D", ends in an "O" the middle built by Noah himself. Trade J.O. for the next J.O.....

Let's see...
D _ARK_O

Can you spot me some more letters?

-BBall

hoopsforlife
01-21-2006, 08:17 AM
bball: I have to agree with you on this subject. I never have considered JO to be the leader of this team. I think he is a great player and would be a super second wheel on a championship team. Leaders lead. They don't have to be annointed or appointed. When Bird had to call JO out last year about being a leader and taking control of this team it was all over for JO in that role. It was too late for him.

Ron was more of a leader than JO but his personality, self made reputation and manner was not acceptable to his team mates. To be a leader people have to want to follow you. They didn't want to follow Ron after all the episodes and immature behavior he exibited. On the floor Ron lead by example. Hard play and effort all the time. Off the floor he couldn't relate well.

Saras was brought in to lead. I think he is a natural born leader who is being alienated by Carlisle for some reason. If getting rid of JO would clear up the pecking order on this team I'm all for it. If getting rid of Carlisle now would help I would be for that.

Until these issues are settled this team is going nowhere.

SoupIsGood
01-21-2006, 10:02 AM
Starts with a "D", ends in an "O" the middle built by Noah himself. Trade J.O. for the next J.O.....

:lol:

PacerMan
01-21-2006, 12:27 PM
You just topped your own nomination.



Surely you can come up with something more to add to the discussion than that.

Naw, that's how I feel about that moron on this team. Sorry if I offended anyone with the molester analogy.

Pacesetter
01-21-2006, 12:37 PM
Soup, maybe they should just find a new team to watch ... seems that's what they wanna do anyway ... :D :rolleyes:

Fair Weather Fans

:leaving: :lazy: :2deadhors :star: :dancers: :whatsup:

heywoode
01-21-2006, 01:08 PM
Soup, maybe they should just find a new team to watch ... seems that's what they wanna do anyway ... :D :rolleyes:

Fair Weather Fans

:leaving: :lazy: :2deadhors :star: :dancers: :whatsup:


Here, I'll quote myself since you must've missed it, considering this post....




Fine. Let's keep everybody we have, sign them all to whatever they want, and just talk about whether we won or lost. Let's not expound at all on anything a little (or a lot) off the wall, just for discussion's sake.

Heck, what we've been doing has been working so well, why even THINK of changing anything??

heywoode
01-21-2006, 01:31 PM
Dont waste your time, Heywoode.

He wont respond to logical comments, he just likes to bash those of us that dont support every thing the Pacers do 110%.

God forbid people have opinions, and even discuss those opinions.....................

Yep.

Pacesetter
01-21-2006, 03:52 PM
Yep.

I'm sorry if I seem to be bashing you Heywoode. That's not my intentions, and I am certainly not meaning any disrespect on a personal level. What bothers me is the talk of trade when someone doesn't perform like superman every game out. #7 has a sprained ankle. He is hurt. It confuses the hell out of me when people talk of trading someone when they're down, or have a bad game.

vapacersfan, I am not bashing anyone in particular. Losses are never any fun for fans, but making hasty remarks about players from one game to the next is being selfish and fair weather, imo. I will voice concern over something if it is a serious concern. I will and always do, but I've learned to ease back a little bit and look at the bigger picture so I don't jump to conclusions hastily. I'm not good enough to suggest sweeping changes after one game or even 40 games. However, if it's in my face obvious, then I can generally call it out without being rash or insincere. There's nothing at all wrong with taking the time to think about the effects what I say has on the folks who hear them or read them. It's important enough to me to invest that sort of time into expressing myself. Hopefully I make myself clear. FWIW.

heywoode
01-21-2006, 04:30 PM
Well, I think things can be discussed, one way or the other, without it being taken that anyone is necessarily advocating what is being discussed. When there are obvious problems, it pays to take a step back and look at things from different perspectives other than who should play more minutes, who should start, who should play out of position, etc...

Looking at things from a business perspective and looking at far more than what it will take to start winning games right now is a very interesting and stimulating conversation for some of us. We are not fair weather fans. We are not suggesting that since JO is hurt, or he hasn't been totally dominating lately that we should make a knee-jerk reaction and trade the guy. Not at all.

We are trying to look at the franchise's situation from a general manager-type standpoint, where even though you may like a player a lot, it could make more sense and be better for your franchise to move on. If things like that are never thought about, or personnel issues are looked at with rose-colored glasses or blinders on because our players are nice, good guys, a franchise can put itself in a long term bind for having been so short-sighted.

Questioning everything is always healthy for any situation, and it keeps everyone feeling like both the short and long term success of the franchise is being given the kind of scrutiny and respect it deserves.

Thanks for your more indepth explanation of your thoughts, and I hope what I have said will help some understand the context under which we are discussing personnel issues.

Bball
01-21-2006, 06:01 PM
I will voice concern over something if it is a serious concern. I will and always do, but I've learned to ease back a little bit and look at the bigger picture so I don't jump to conclusions hastily. I'm not good enough to suggest sweeping changes after one game or even 40 games. However, if it's in my face obvious, then I can generally call it out without being rash or insincere. There's nothing at all wrong with taking the time to think about the effects what I say has on the folks who hear them or read them. It's important enough to me to invest that sort of time into expressing myself. Hopefully I make myself clear. FWIW.

Well, if you paid attention to what I was writing you would've noticed I talked about JO's progress since the signing of his contract (that's taking a long range look at things) and pondered whether his game had peaked or was still expanding. If you think he's improved leaps and bounds since then, then tell us about. Tell me why I am not giving him enough credit. Tell me why you think he's growing into (or beyond) his contract rather than the other way around.

I talked about the future in wondering whether JO was a help or hindrance in ever getting past Detroit. I wasn't asking about the Pacers vs Detroit game in Feb, I'm talking about future playoff runs.

This is certainly not something to discuss just because he's injured right now (unless someone wants to add the frequency of his injuries to the discussion). We could ask 'why' he seems to be injured so much... Coincidence? Playing out of position? Not built for a physical game?
I suppose the actual answer to that question could impact (hey Jay!) some of the other points in this discussion.

The biggest question is whether JO is worth his contract and whether his on court play and growth seems in line with his contract on thru the future and how they will affect the team's ability to field a contender

-Bball

Pacesetter
01-21-2006, 08:19 PM
bball, I'm about to head out for the game, but when I come back either tonight or tomorrow I will try to put something together that spells out why JO is such an incredible Pacer to have on our team and exactly why I believe he's worth his contract and more.

gotta get.

NPFII
01-22-2006, 11:58 AM
JO is a piece. 1 good piece.

To be a champion you need at least 3 pieces:

2005 Spurs: Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Bowen
(Pistons: Billups, Hamilton, B. Wallace, R. Wallace)

2004 Pistons: Billups, Hamilton, B.Wallace, R.Wallace
(Lakers: Shaq, Kobe, Malone)

2003 Spurs: Duncan, Robinson, Parker, Bowen
(NJ: Kidd, Jefferson, KMart)

2000-2002 Lakers: Shaq, Kobe - an exception!
(2002 NJ: Kidd, Jefferson, KMart)
(2001 Philly: AI, Mckie, Mutombo, Coleman)
(2000 Indy: Reggie, Smits, Mark Jackson, A.Davis, D.Davis)

1999 Spurs: Duncan, Robinson, AJ, Elliot
(Knicks: Houston, Sprewell, Camby, LJ)

1996-1998 Bulls: MJ, Pippen, Rodman
(1997-1998 Jazz: Stockton, Malone, Hornacek, Russel)

1994-1995 Rockets: Hakeem, Drexler, Kenny Smith, Cassell, Horry
(1995 Magic: Shaq, Penny, Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson)
(1994 Knicks: Ewing, Starks, Derrick Harper, Oakley)

Currently, apart from JO, who would be considered a championship piece?
Artest - a good piece, but irrelevant.
Jackson - has the potential to be, but is currently too inconsistent, and mentally weak.
Tinsley - has the potential to be, but is injury-prone, and mentally weak.
Granger - has the potential to be, but is still a rookie. Scoring is a big question.
Sarunas - has the potential to be, but is still a rookie.
Freddie - has the potential to be, but is still inconsistent with his shot.

Foster, Croshere, AJ, Harrison, Pollard - are all role players at best.

So we have JO + 5 potentials. That's not good enough. Remember - you need at least 3 (some would say that today you need at least 4).

Giving away the one you still have is silly. You should trade 2-3 of your potentials for another one (Artest+Tinsley+Jackson for Pierce), and hope one of your rookies develops into another one (Saras/Granger). If you have the money to get a big FA (Al Harrington) - you should.

I can easily see next season with the Pacers going with JO, Pierce, Al Harrington, Saras, Granger, Freddie, and 3-4 role players at PG,C, PF.
This is a 3-piece team (JO, PP, Al) with 2 hopefully upcoming pieces (Saras, Granger) and a great 6th man (Fred). Add the right role players (Foster, Cro, whatever) and you have a wonderful team.

Pacesetter
01-22-2006, 11:38 PM
bball the situation with Ron has caused a lot of doubt for everyone associated with this Pacers team. I am not at all concerned about JO. He's a winner and he's proven that time and time again. There's alot of mental in this game, and it ought to be fairly obvious to anyone watching why some players including JO, aren't performing at their peak. JO is a smart player, and he is tougher than given credit for. He is still yet just 27 years old, and that's not very old. His salary as far as I'm concerned is earned. He has a great deal of love and loyalty to this organization. He is very vocal about his goals for this team, and I believe he is a player who can carry this team once we're running on all cylinders. If you look at straight numbers he's in the upper echelon of Pacer greats. No one I can think of in the past 25 years has been where JO sits at the moment. He also carries a great many Pacers records with 3 of the top 5 defensive rebounds for a season record, he decimated the block shots for a season with 228. He has a great personality, and you always hear about him doing nice things in the community. I've had friends meet him out and about and said he's golden. Obviously his off the court activities may not be of any significance to some, but I appreciate JO very much. He's like family to me because of the way he carries himself, and you can't puyt a price tag on that.

He's paid alot of money but I'm sure that carries more responsibilities than just showing up with a time card and punching out at the end of the shift. He's probably working a great deal of time with charities and locker room stuff. His overall numbers of 20.10 is pretty significant. He's had some injuries but that's just going to happen. I can't remember the number of times Rik Smits feet went south on him, but even at full throttle Rik can't do what JO can do. At the end of the day JO is carrying this team from the Reggie years to the new generation, and not too mention he's been with us 6 seasons now. JO has proven to me he still hsn't reached his peak, and if we can get the other positions settled down, and he can come in and work on his game without the other distractions, I believe you won't even be concerned with how much he makes. I personally don't believe the staggering amounts these guys are making, so I don't think anyone is worth what they're making except maybe Artest. Regardless though, JO commanded what he's making, and obviously there's alot of teams who would love to have him. We got him, and he's a superstar!

Has it really been that long since he was considered for the MVP? Geez time flies!